When were "hot drinks" in the Word of Wisdom defined as tea and coffee? Ep. 172
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- You’ll notice that Doctrine and Covenants Section 89 does not specifically mention the words “tea,” or “coffee.” Instead, the revelation uses the phrase, “hot drinks.” Many people understandably wonder why Latter-day Saints (sometimes referred to as “Mormons”) view this as a reference to tea and coffee, but not also a reference to hot chocolate, hot apple cider, etc. That’s the question that David Snell digs into in this episode.
Video transcript and additional notes: bit.ly/3RidXI5
- Doctrine and Covenants Section 89: bit.ly/3wrBU6o
- “Revelations in Context: The Word of Wisdom,” by Jed Woodworth: bit.ly/3MGQdv6
- “Word of Wisdom” via the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: bit.ly/3wHsgyd
- “Word of Wisdom” via the Church’s website: bit.ly/3afiFpq
- “Why did Brigham Young build a whiskey distillery in Utah?” via FAIR: bit.ly/3Pv9m4M
- “Did Joseph Smith Obey the Word of Wisdom?” via Steven C. Harper: bit.ly/3G9mmJe
- “The history and implementation of the Word of Wisdom” via FAIR: bit.ly/3PAgIUz
- “A Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom,” thesis by Paul H. Peterson, 1972: bit.ly/3yJwc2w
- “The Word of Wisdom: Development and Practice,” via the Church’s website: bit.ly/3PlA3sJ
- “Scripture Roundtable: D&C Gospel Doctrine Lesson 22, ‘The Word of Wisdom’” via Interpreter Foundation: bit.ly/3yJiEEn
Notes:
- Similar to his 1871 discourse, Brigham Young also mentioned in an 1867 discourse, “Many try to excuse themselves because tea and coffee are not mentioned, arguing that it refers to hot drinks only. What did we drink hot when that Word of Wisdom was given? Tea and coffee. It definitely refers to that which we drink with our food.” Source: bit.ly/3LvKQxp
- During the temperance movement going on in the broader culture at the time (in the 1830s), tea and coffee were often used as substitutes for alcohol. Many temperance reformers thus looked upon tea and coffee favorably, while D&C 89 did not. For more, see “Revelations in Context: Word of Wisdom.”
- While I was researching this subject I was curious about how the wider culture in the 1830s was using the term “hot drinks.” So I did a few Google Book searches, and found that when specific examples of “hot drinks” are given, far and away the most common examples that I saw were coffee and tea. For example (links embedded on website):
“Hot drinks, as tea and coffee” 1831
“Avoid likewise the excessive use of hot drinks, such as coffee, chocolate, and tea” 1833
“Coffee, tea, and other hot drinks…” 1838
“Hot drinks, especially tea and coffee…” 1838
“What is here said of hot drinks will apply with equal force, to strong tea, coffee, and spirituous liquors…” 1839
“Hot drinks, especially coffee and tea…” 1836
“Very much opposed to giving children hot drinks of any kind. If they are to drink substances which are injurious, as tea or coffee, let them be cool.” 1839
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Thanks for letting me know! I have asked this question to missionaries and have never got a good answer.
Great video, as a new member the word of wisdom is a great anchor ⚓ for me,I just wish I had the wisdom earlier in life, and avoided a lot of things but I have it now 😀 and I'm happy, well done Saints Unscripted 👍👍
Love this topic. As someone who drinks mate everyday I’ve always wrestled with how that fits with the word of wisdom. Another thought is, shouldn’t we only be eating meat in times of famine? Why doesn’t the church talk about the benefits to eating less meat as often as we talk about tea or coffee? To me there’s a lot of gray area here and a lot of it depends on our personal relationship with Heavenly Father. Also, there are much more important things for us to focus on that’ll help us stay on the covenant path. Let’s not judge each other but lift each other and seek to understand. Thank you for the great content!
the meat thing is a good point, I started to seriously think about that last year when we where reading D&C. Personally as I was thinking about this, I think that the WOW is also for the animals and not just for people. Looking at how the meat industry is nowadays and the mass consumption of meat in our society, I think that we should push the idea of being more vegeterian as members of the church in general. But culture makes old habits die hard.
I’ve been asking the same thing! My family tries to eat vegetarian and vegan most of the time, and maybe have meat like once a week or something.
Agreed. We all need to stop grading each other on how well we follow specific commandments. I.E. we need to stop judging each other. :-) Having said that, I appreciate this explanation of the definition of Hot Drinks as it baffled me for a long time. With this video I was reminded of how we are to interpret scriptures - they should be understood within the context of the time and place they were given. Thanks!
Except for the comma after “used” in verse 13 was added much later, meaning meat isn’t just to be used in times of winter or famine. The Scriptures also teach the anyone who commands not to eat meat is not ordained of God. Meats are significantly more healthy and bioavailable than vegetables. It requires personal revelation to know how to implement the word of wisdom when it comes to eating meat.
I’ve been on vegetarian and vegan diets for two years and most recently experimented with the Carnivore diet for a year and a half. Let’s just say I’m never going back to veganism or vegetarianism due to the curing of my autoimmune and other health issues.
When I looked into mate, I found that it falls under "herbal tea", which isn't actually tea, thus it's not a WoW concern. If anyone knows otherwise, I'm open to learning. Meantime, my mate issue is being able to find any near me.
Amazing, love this and looking forward to part 2
The issue I've always had with this interpretation is that you have to basically ignore the logic that comes from most of the reccomendations from the Word of Wisdom for it to make any sense, and it makes me wonder whether or not the tea and coffee prohibition is simply there to distuinguish the LDS faith from other forms of Christianity. Eating meat spareingly for example is in the word of wisdom, and yet if you ate meat for every meal nobody would care. Drink coffee or tea once, and people will be all over you for it.
Become Vegan....
Serious question: why is there such a focus on the prohibitions laid out in the Word of Wisdom, and not so much on the dietary recommendations listed in the rest of Section 89? There's some good health habits listed out as well.
My guess is because of all the criticism of the prohibitions.
@@diamonddavemctv Even when I was an active member we rarely touched on the positive recommendations. It was always the same coffee bad, alcohol bad, black and green tea bad, drugs bad, smoking etc. etc.
Probably should also put the redbull down and eat some greens from time to time, and stop blessing the donuts to strengthen and nourish your body.
My guess would be that the prohibitions have way more serious consequences, not only for ourselves but also for others. On the other hand, it's definitely not a bad idea to make an effort to follow even the recommendations
@@BrendonKing it's tough as an Asian convert in giving up tea, being it's part of my culture and knowing the benefits of its consumption. Thank goodness, herbal tea is still allowed.
I would say that the other health guidelines or easier to follow and less controversial than drinking coffee and tea. I feel like the issue with coffee and tea apply more to this day and prophets are supposed to be telling us what we need to here.
Also, if the church leaders aren’t telling people to not drink tea or coffee, we definitely know the members are! I think part of judging others for drinking coffee and tea is jealousy or envy. If you’re someone who used to really enjoy drinking those things, but gave them up for the sake of the WOW, then I think seeing another member drinking something you used to like would rub you the wrong way or at least pique your interest in some negative way.
I think this video may be causing some confusion because you don’t differentiate tea from herbal tea. There has always been a huge difference between these in LDS church culture and without understanding that people don’t understand how the doctrine is interpreted by a huge portion of the church
Thanks alot for the resources in the descriptions!
Hi Saints Unscripted, Im excited on the next episode about from moderation to total abstention
Serious question: Why not drink cold, decaffeinated, tea? Healthy, cold, caffeine free.
The temperature doesn’t matter, since it’s fine for myself and others to drink hot chocolate or (while really odd) if I wanted to-hot lemonade or a nice warmed up mug of poured Pepsi. 😂
It may be there are properties of tea and coffee we just don’t know about yet.
It could also be that there are additives to tea and coffee, or at least in some teas and coffee which the food industry doesn’t want us to know about.
Or maybe tea and coffee are simply not the best for us in one way or another.
Or it could be a sign of faith and our willingness to submit to God and put off the natural man and show God that because we do love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15).
It’s also worth pointing out the truly addictive nature of Coffee. We can become dependent on it in a really unhealthy way.
I'm from Brazil and also a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter days saints. When the word of wisdom is or was taught back in the day tea was never prohibited. However, we were instructed to not drink coffee and BLACK TEA only. When on a mission, my American companions got really surprised how we (Brazilians) we're allowed to drink tea. The American missionaries, especially one of my companions, was living a dream by been "allowed" to drink tea while on his mission but never at his home country. That's really weird how the church allows "tea" or herbal tea in some countries but not in the Joseph Smith home country.
I could also add here that in southern Brazil people dink Chimarrão, wich is almost boiling water temperature and the church never said anything about it. I guess if it is something that the church police may interfere with people culture its better off just to fun fun of fun and move on.
I understand that the word of wisdom is something very particular and each individual should know what's best for your own good. But when answering the Temple recommend question it may be faulty depending where part of the world you are from.
In my opinion now, I don't know what happened when Joseph Smith received this revelation. I know that he inquired the lord after Emma complains about the dirty floor covered with tobacco in the room but I think there was something else, something POLITICAL between Joseph Smith or the church and the coffee companies or something like that to avoid drinking coffee. In nowadays it would be a lot more clear if the church came out saying that we should avoid Coke-cola, or any oder sodas that only destroys our bodies even worse that coffee or beer.
Anyways, a member of the church can not attend the temple if consuming coffee and tea. But on the other hand there is that guy tha weighs over 300lbs, don't exercises, and keep buying his diet Coke from the grocery store due to his diabetes...
Now I ask you, which one is striving to keep the world of wisdom and can have a temple recommend?
Cardon Ellis said that the Faith and Beliefs series is some of the best produced Latter-day Saint content on the internet. I would agree.
Look forward to the next video. The word of wisdom is an interesting subject. Thanks for tackling it David.
The WOW was always my biggest problem with the church, it’s weird to me that they emphasize so much the importance of not drinking coffee or tea but they never say anything about other highly caffeinated drinks such as bang, reign, monster, redbull, etc. My theory is that the members have turned to these beverages as alternate ways to get caffiene and if the first presidency were to ban those drinks there would be a lot of backlash
Guilty as charged.
Hope that answers you question
I’ve had missionaries in Edmonton, Canada say coffee is okay to drink while others say it isn’t. I think some say it’s okay in order to help people ease into membership.
I've never heard anyone talk about the fact that D&C 89:12-13 says to eat meat "sparingly." Do Latter Day Saints eat less meat than most Americans?
I NEVER hear anyone talk about it!
No
Temper that with the counsel in Section 49
For me coffee seems to be in the word of wisdom because it can be more addictive than other caffeine drinks, we have all met someone who’s says something like don’t talk to me until I’ve had my coffee for example, also staying away from something that otherwise looks delicious proves you can and are willing to listen to lord even if you don’t understand why
As JWs tobacco is forbidden and illicit drugs.
But alcohol is permitted in moderation and tea and coffee are permitted.
I hardly ever drink alcohol and rarely drink either tea or coffee anyway, so for me the word of wisdom wouldn’t seem like much of a difference.
I’d be surprised if their aren’t some sneaky Mormons that drink coffee on the sly.
When are we going to get an episode with the Church's current stance on marijuana use or medical marijuana use?
38.7.9 of the handbook is pretty clear on the issue www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng
Not a commandment but all saving ordinances will be withheld.
I hardly think that God will kick a person out of heaven for drinking tea and coffee
David, my brother, I hate to be the guy that nitpicks at individual verses, but what are your thoughts on modern revelation and D&C 89 : 6? It seems the lord is saying wine is OK as long as members make it?
Hello again. I used to drink Wine (and Beer) every week when I was catholic and I can assure you that it is not healthy. It blurrs your mind and faith.
DAnny Gray. I wonder if "juice" hadn't become a word used as commonly then as it is now. I wonder if the Lord was getting at allowing them to make grape juice.
@@Hamann9631 interesting perspective!
…he did say it’s ok for sacrament.
@@anthonyrippa686 The Lord lives and does update His commandments. Since grape juice and wine start out with crushed grapes, it isn't non-sense to think the Lord was encouraging juice drinking.
If the expectation is changed then the canonized scripture must be changed and it has not been.
From my understanding, the Amish love coffee and drink lot's of it. And they are very blessed by God
Why tea and coffee but not hot chocolate or hot milk? Is it the caffeine in the tea or coffee? I've heard from missionaries you can drink non herbal tea without caffeine . And if it's caffeine why are energy drinks ok or caffeinated sodas? And if it's just the hot part why is hot chocolate ok. It really makes no sense
Does herbal tea count as a hot drink if not is Rooibos tea good? I heard people say it is but I just want to confirm!
Herbal tea is fine. And I really like rooibos
is green tea ok?
No, it's from the tea plant.
This is awesome but I have been working in a health foods store that provides wellness counselors to answer any health questions customers may have. So often I hear them telling customers the amazing benefits tea has for the body.
Different kinds of teas can help with different physical problems.
If tea is so good for the body I’m having a hard time understanding why we are told not to drink it.
I don’t drink tea because we are told not to but I struggle agreeing with it knowing it is actually good for you. 🤷🏻♀️
i’ve been confused about this as well! but i thought to look at what specific teas were popular at the time and it seems like mostly black and green teas. I guess more herbal teas and their benefits are alright. it is an interesting conundrum, im excited to get to the other side and figure out what it was supposed to mean lol
I was always taught that herbal teas don’t count as “tea” according to the word of wisdom, just black tea and green tea. On that same note they used green tea to help recover from illness frequently back then and when I read the word of wisdom myself I felt like it indicated that if something like green tea was used for healing, during the time of recovery the use of it was perfectly fine as long as it didn’t become something used daily (like an addiction).
What do the Mormons have against tea abd coffee? Utah abounds with tea and coffee?
This is a good, concise, summary
I never understand why the church worries so much about members drinking a ground up bean yet ignores “eating meat sparingly.” One is a bean, the second is referring to slaughtering animals. How can that be ignored.
Can you drink herbal tea
Yup
Leonardo Jerkovic. Yes, because there isn't any actual tea plant in it.
Fantastic video, thank you!
I wish I knew where I could see a video about the angel of light… Some of my friends claimed the church was established by an angel of light and reference scripture that we are to be aware of angels of light deceiving the populace
What about "eat meat sparingly"
Sorry, I can't adhere to that. Texas roadhouse is my second home.
I know a lot of people in my ward that do not eat meat that much. I limit myself to eating meat at max. 5 times a week. I do not eat meat on Friday and Sunday.
yeah. You eat some meat with each meal. Not entirely meats only. Based on CDC healthy diet guideline, we need protein, dairy, grains, veges, fruits. all 5 of them. You eat everything in moderation.
Define sparingly
Is macha not allowed
That is correct, it is green tea.
@@RyanMercer thank you I was having a hard time finding a straight up answer
I thought it referred to the fact that both regular tea and coffee have caffeine and caffeine is, a drug. Such as, alcohol, is a drug.
Could you explain why the church uses water in the sacrament?, The BoM (and Bible of course) after all, mentions bread and WINE.. Has this always been the custom since 1830 or does the Word of wisdom have something to do with it?
I think there might be a video on it but it boils down to a revelation given to JS not to buy wine from an outside vendor. There’s speculation there were concerns about people trying to poison the wine the Saints were buying. So they used water. And with the current interpretation of the WoW it’s just necessary. Interesting to note that traditional churches like the Catholic or Anglican Church will mix water with the wine used in communion.
I've always wondered that myself. To me, the Sacrament loses a lot of its beautiful symbolism when wine...or at least, grape juice isn't used.
David... U are awsome with these videos 👌!
As I sip on my coffee I have reflected on social constructs of our day, I am earnestly so ever grateful that you granted coloreds like myself our humanity way way back in the late 70s, Brigham Young was an pillar of justice and his teaching are that of an Prophet because by definition Prophets are innocent and saved from sin. Thank you. And I miss Uncle Tom, I hope he is in good health
… I loved your comment!
Snark noted
3:22 Gordon:Dude!
Thomas: What!?
Dallin: Is that even legal?
Russel: I told you he said it. You owe me lunch.
This satire was brought to you by Kyllah Valle.
How do you understand Colossians 2:16-23 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”
It seems as though the Apostle Paul was addressing similar issues with members feeling that they should abstain from certain food or drink?
I live in Germany and members hier drink tea...so...
The first Presidency of the Church needs to get revelation for todays times about the Word of Wisdom that even a child can understand. There’s been many debates on this & that one time we couldn’t drink caffeinated sodas. President Hinkley was on 60 minutes & said yes when he was asked people of your Church don’t drink caffeinated sodas but now it’s a different story & where told to drink soda sparingly. This debate has been flipped flopped many of times & now BYU is selling caffeinated sodas. When I heard that I started questioning what drinks do they serve in the Temple cafeteria? Shortly after I heared there would be no more cafeterias in Temples & that’s was the end of that thought. I worked at Deseret Industries years ago & they where not allowed to have caffeinated soda in the pop machine. I know people that drinks MtDew all the time & addicted to it. It’s a Scientific fact that it’s bad for us but it tastes so good. My Dad drank Pepsi all the time & it made him angry, he even had kidney stones from drinking too much soda. I don’t drink MtDew anymore but occasionally I’ll drink Root Beer. While growing up I was told coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco & caffeinated drinks where against the word of wisdom. We always had tea in the house to drink when someone wasn’t feeling well. I had a neighbor who would always cook with alcohol & didn’t want the other neighbors to find out. When they went to the liquor store they would park a block away. We always have this discussion in Church all the time & it can ruffle some feathers. Someone asked if where supposed to stay away from hot soup. Last week in Church the instructor talked about he would drink energy drinks all the time. There is a guy he knows that is investigating to become a member in the Church. He asked my Ward maember if coffee is against the Word of Wisdom they why was he drinking energy drinks. My Ward member stopped drinking energy drinks to be a good example to that guy & he found out after he quit drinking them he feels much better. We had a Ward member who was dying & during one of his last testimonies he shared with us how bad energy drinks are because he would drink them all the time. Once he stopped drinking them he felt so much better. I still see members drink them all the time & I seen someone bring a Red Bull into the Church House. I never tried one & I remember a first presidency message once stated if there’s something you question about don’t do it. I’m always asking myself would Jesus drink this or watch that. I know the Lord is giving us free agency to decide for ourselves what we put into our bodies. Our bodies are like a Temple & if there’s no caffeinated drinks in a Temple then I won’t be putting it in my body. Once I stopped drinking MtDew I’ve had more revelations & blessings happen to me. My mind is more opened to the Holy Ghost. I’ve heard these things as well with others in my Ward. If you question it don’t do it & if you want to know about something pray about it. The Church seems so wishy washy over these things & needs to be more clear that a child can understand.
I'm gonna correct you on a couple things, but I don't mean it in a mean way. When I worked in the temple, I very distinctly remember having Dr. Pepper with my lunches; so if caffeine sodas are not in the temple cafeterias, it's a very new thing. Second, I have to clue you in about kidney stones, as someone who's had them: kidney stones are not created by caffeine, they are the result of the carbonation and the sugar. But the caffeine is addictive and that's why it's a problem. I also think energy drinks are far FAR worse than a can of Coke. I completely avoid energy drinks.
While I agree that church leaders could do well with some modern context, engender that it's not good to be commanded in all things. You're right: if it feels off, stay away from it.
Finally, your self-reflection on of Christ would have it or not is problematic. Remember, Christ drank wine.
Pepsi, Coke and Dr. Pepper are allowed (I do not drink them at all but even one of my missionaries drank Pepsi on an August day)
This can be debated until Hell freezes over & everyone has a valid comment. The Word of Wisdom is one of the reasons why I left the Church in 1986 but I had trials in my life that God brought me back in 2005 from a Church I once hated. Your not going to get kicked out of the Church if you drink coffee, tea, alcohol or use tobacco but you can’t get a Temple recommend if you use those things. You can’t even go to the Temple if you have morality issues that I don’t need to mention but the Church is so strict. I know alot of good people who would like to come to Church but their afraid to be mocked & some members have shamed them for drinking coffee. That’s not right & everyone should be welcomed. If alcohol is forbidden than why did Christ turn water into wine & they used it for Sacrement? In 2015 I started to read all the Ensign’s started in 1970 along with conference talks. They said we shouldn’t drink caffeinated sodas & now say to drink them sparingly. This is what ruffles my feathers. I don’t know who to believe. One Prophet says this & another one says that. Instead of being bent out of shape over it & having arguments with those I love. I stopped drinking caffeinated drinks & also they made me violent so I had to quit. I was told in Church we shouldn’t be watching football on Sundays & one of my Bishops would have a super bowl party. I would have Church meetings where others wanted out early to watch the game. So is football more important than Christ? I’m letting out the whole can of worms. I remember one Sunday I walked around the neighborhood & couldn’t believe how many Super Bowl parties were going on & I ended up being in the Church House by myself. After that I stopped watching football or any other sports especially on Sunday. I have no regrets & I know others that don’t also but I hate how the Church says you shouldn’t do it but it’s your choice. I feel their putting me on a guilt trip. I stopped listen to the Church & only listen to the Lord now. I’ve had Bishops deceive me telling me I shouldn’t get off my depression meds but the Lord wanted me off & He helped me to. We was even told from a Prophet to not use playing cards because it will turn into gambling & alcohol/smoking.which we don’t participate in. I read that in Church History & I have neighbors who want allow playing cards into their homes when I asked around about it. I always had playing cards but it never tempted me to do those other things. Imperfect people are running the Lord’s Church & the times have changed. I believe they need to go back to the drawing board & be more pacific. We still have are free agencies but I don’t like it when someone gets up their & gives a great talk about not watching football on Sunday & then continues to do it themselves. It’s the people who are destroying the Lord’s Church. Why do you think there are so many Temples being built? I’m afraid someday they will become empty. Might as well build them when there’s willing people to still go. There’s so many people in sheeps clothing in my Ward that teach on thing & do the opposite. I felt like leaving the Church for good but I’m their for me & they can do what they want. I know what’s best for me. President Nelson said to get the Jab. I prayed about & some people I know did to but didn’t feel good about it. We are always told to follow the Prophet & that’s why I got them but didn’t get the boosters. The jab hurt me & others. I still don’t feel well from when I got the Jab over a year ago. The Dr thought I had a stroke & I had a MRI that didn’t find anything. I’ve been more tired & my arm still hurts from Jab. I am allergic to most meds. I don’t listen to anyone in the Church unless the Lord confirms it unto me. I don’t agree to alot of things in the Church & I do drink tea when I don’t feel well. I even heard tea can be good for ya. I came back to Church in 2005 then got disfellowshipped in 2012 & got reinstated in 2013. The Lord knew I didn’t mean to do what I did & I was incarcerated. I was supposed to go to Prison but the Lord changed the Judges heart & there was witnesses seeing the miracle. I wasn’t supposed to be reinstated in the Church until after probation & that’s what the Handbook of instructions said but my Bishop read that part to me but didn’t say that. I had to write to the first presidency of the church why I wanted to be reinstated. I got all my blessings back & my Bishop read that part in the Handbook again to my Brother & it read different this time. He told my Brother I shouldn’t have gotten my blessings back until my probation was over but the Lord had other plans for me & it saved my life because I was fighting with the adversary & I wanted to die. When I got the Holy Ghost back I felt so much better. We should only listen to the Lord. There was one time I was in the Temple & the instructions started bothering me for the first time. I went to the Lord about it & next time I went to the Temple that which was bothering me was taken out. Pray for your own salvations & listen to the Lord not these imperfect Church leaders. Don’t even listen to me because we all know what’s best for us when we follow the Lord.
Thank god, this means i can drink Champurado
The word of wisdom is revered more then the law of chastity. There are some that aren’t chaste, but wouldn’t dare have a glass of while doing it.
True dat!!
Is it possible that the consensus opinion of the leadership through history is completely wrong about their interpretation of hot drinks?
I think the focus should be more on the person's willingness to follow the counsel over their opinion of a right or wrong interpretation.
@@DannyAGray why should that be the focus?
@@mikefoxtrot1314 picking apart if the leaders are right or wrong just creates more division and chaos. I'm not saying to go along with it blindly; but I think that making the choice that you're following the lord and not necessarily the men ought to be the goal. Either follow what is or don't. Just pick a lane and devote yourself to the lord.
@@DannyAGray It seems like you’re saying that the focus should be on following the lord through church leadership, and the focus should not be on whether the church leaders are right or wrong when they claim to speak for the lord.
@@mikefoxtrot1314 they do speak for the lord; but they're also human, with human faults, human opinions, and the lord already says that it's not good that man be commanded in all things. See what the lord is commanding in, consider the interpretations and additional guidance from leaders, figure out where you land, and consecrate your efforts to observing faith in the lord with your best.
what about chocolate in any form.. chocolate has caffeine in it just as naturally as coffee or tea...if your gonna be true to it you have to cut chocolate out too...chocolate is addictive.. who eats one scoop of chocolate ice cream or one bite of chocolate candy you eat a bowl or two of ice cream and the whole king-size candy bar the whole bag of MnMs thats not good for you at all...what about goodys headache powder or bc headache powder they have caffeine in them...the caffeine works well with the aspirin in it... certain medicines have alcohol in it .. how far do you take it or where can you find a reasonable medium..where you say ok one cup of coffee a day or maybe just once or twice a week...im only gonna pick one day a month to have some chocolate...even tho im sick i cant take nyquil its got alcohol in it...you could say im pullin at the straw..but im being sincere...i love you guys by the way I watch the channel all the time and i read and enjoy the book of mormon everyday...i don't know much about the other books
If members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should abstain from coffee and tea; they should also prohibit Coca-Cola, Mountain Dew and soft drinks (soda) in general. At least the Seventh Day Adventists are clear about why: because of caffeine and or it's bad for you, and not just because we "follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet, don't go astray..."
While I agree with the sentiment that your 64oz extra dirty dark forest from Sodalicious will probably kill you faster than alcohol ever could in moderation, I think it's a tough argument to make given what's actually in the word of wisdom.
@@BrendonKing members seem to use the excuse (maybe only a Utah thing) that such and such or so and so drinks Diet Coke, or "the Word of Wisdom doesn't say energy drinks!"
In D&C 89 verse 3, it’s stated the the word of wisdom is “Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.”
Let’s have a special emphasis on “the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints.” The WoW is the bare minimum. I 100% agree with you that members of the Church need to improve on abstaining from or having in moderation unhealthy foods and drinks. I also think all members of the Church and all people in the world should have more spiritual maturity. We know it’s unhealthy to drink disgusting amounts of soda everyday just as we know it’s extremely charitable and Christlike to sincerely serve in the old folks’ home everyday. Alas, neither of these exact activities are ever mentioned in scripture.
The Lord gives us basic principles to start out, then allows us to govern ourselves accordingly, then He proceeds to give us more guidance, counsel, and commandment when He sees fit.
He reiterates this principle in D&C 58:26-28: “26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.”
If the Lord has to tell us every single thing, then we wouldn’t really be agents in the end, and that would frustrate His plan.
Conclusion: I wholeheartedly agree that “Mormon” culture is disgusting, insincere, and contradictory to the official doctrine taught by the Church. Members of the Church shouldn’t see the WoW as just “the law” to follow and nothing more, but the minimum requirements to begin to live a healthier and physically holier lifestyle. I firmly believe that the Lord gave us the WoW without too many specifics so that we may first reach the bare minimum, the proceed to seek, learn, understand, and live in healthier, holier, higher ways.
My personal rule (that hasn’t done me wrong yet) is to stay away from anything highly addictive and to me that includes any drugs, alcohol, tobacco, weed, coffee, energy drinks, and anything with tons of sugar. And I didn’t put tea on the list because I could never be tempted by tea because I think it tastes and smells disgusting 😂. I think part of the gospel is to find your own reasons for doing these things. To me, that’s how you can show your love to God :)
@@melepearl7916 beautiful response. Thank you!
For the believer, the WoW is something to set them apart and make them feel more righteous over non-believers. In reality, it's just a power play; another way for the institution to exercise and maintain control over the -brainwashed- faithful.
I completely disagree. I've never once heard a faithful member who cautiously observes the WoW say or even imply any kind of superiority. Likewise, as someone who may not be as faithful, I don't see myself the least bit inferior, and I've never felt judged on that subject.
My entire family is non LDS and when we meet up for BBQ and people drink beer or coffee... and I don't... I don't feel superior at all.
Do what you please good sir.