One drunken night a friend of mine, who was a sonar man on a 688 in the mid 70's (Los Angeles class attack sub), told me a story. Technically he was still sworn to secrecy over this incident, but he was very well lubricated at the time and it was many years later. The boat was off the Soviet Pacific coast line, near the port of Vladivostok and the nearby Soviet naval base. They were sent there to get the sonar signature of a new class of Soviet sub... and they were too close, well within Russian territorial waters. And then suddenly, the 688 ran aground. Bow stuck hard on the mud. They tried everything they could think of to do quietly to get off, gently rocking it, slow reverse... No go. Hours went by, a whole day stuck down there. The suction from the mud was too hard to break. The noise they made attracted some patrolling Soviet surface warships, who started active pinging and randomly dropping depth charges. The captain finally decided he had enough of this, and simultaneously blew air out of the forward torpedo tubes while going to flank reverse. They broke free, and got the hell out of there at top speed (which was pretty darned fast, more than was published). They were chased on the surface by the Russians until they got to deep water, where they lost them. My friend said they were lucky a Russian attack sub was not there; it was only destroyers and frigates after them. They didn't get the signature, but they got home ;)
You guys missed out on the U505 in Chicago on the map of museum subs. It's a German submarine in ww2 configuration literally in a museum... I highly recommend it.
Also The USS Cobia in Manitowoc, Wisconsin! I took tours and got to sleep multiple times on the Cobia in Boyscouts! She still floating in the water too, not dry docked. Cool to spend the night on those old bunks and hear the ice in the water hitting the side of the sub all night. Really makes you feel like you're experiencing what the guys who served on there experienced
@@nathangebben5738 then hop on ss Badger sail into Ludington and do it again on Uss Silversides then drive down to cod in Ohio and back to Wi via the U505 in Chicago
Myself and my daughter had the privilege of a tour by a crewmen who served on the becuna during WW2. He explained so much to her it was amazing to me! She has not forgotten that to this day and my seeing him explain it to her will last for decades to come!
Research boat, she had a towed array that we could use either to scan the seafloor or use it to talk with an ASV. One of my professors was doing a shallow seafloor research experiment, they lowered a transducer to the seafloor to get their readings and starting getting a bunch of clicks and booms, thinking that the array was damaged they raised it up only to find that the array was perfectly fine to they lowered it back down and heard the same clicks and booms, so my professor dons his wetsuit and goes for a little swim... when he came back up he was smiling and said that some pistol shrimp where duking it out in not about ten feet from where the array was located...
I read a story where a sub heard the shrimp noises, and someone on board knew what they were. Had the torpedo tube outer doors opened for a while, then closed, and they had fresh shrimp for several meals.
Pistol Shrimp are amazing. The snap they make with their claw causes bubble cavitation, and the implosion makes a tiny ball-lightening plasma that can give off light. Sonoluminescence is thought by some scientists to be capable of nuclear fusion with temps in the range of 4-6k degrees Kelvin inside the tiny imploding bubble.
My dad was an ensign on the Becuna during the Korean War. He also served on the Nautilus briefly. If he was alive I would send him the link. I'll have to go visit the boat in Philly.
Having served aboard the USS Thomas Edison SSBN 610, yes I've been on a ship with SONAR. As a matter of fact, the Edison was equipped with (among other SONARs) the AN/BQS4 and the AN/BQR2 which appear to be the very SONARs you're sitting in front of! I spent a fair amount of time sitting in front of the BQR2 (and even *more* in front of the BQR7). Great series!
I was on the USS Stonewall Jackson (SSBN634). While not an ST (I was an YN), I did like going into the sonar shack and listening to the BQR-21 to pass the time away. One night while sitting midwatch helmsman/planesman watch, the WLR-9 alarms kept going off. The OOD called into sonar… “Sonar - Conn, report on WLR-9 alarm.” “Conn - Sonar, biologics.” Over the next twenty minutes or so, it kept going off over and over again. Everybody in control… QMOW, DOOW, COW, helmsman and planesman were pretty much ignoring it but not the OOD. He was becoming unglued and was really really agitated by the alarms when suddenly picks up the mic and yells “SONAR - CONN, WHAT IS THE WLR-9!!” In the calmest voice ever, the Sonar Sup replies, “Conn - Sonar, the WLR-9 is an acoustic intercept receiver.” DOH!
@@brianbranson2306 I always thought that the "S" stood for "Sending" and "R" for "Recieving" since the BQS was the active/transmitting part of the pair (with the transmitting transducer located in the middle of the BQR's circular array) and the BQR was the passive (or Receiving) part of the pair. I certainly could be wrong, though. I'm no expert on AN numbers.
We had a distinct advantage with our passive sonar. Our hydrophones were in the water, but we weren’t! I and my crew were in a US Navy P-3 Orion, usually flying about 300 - 500 feet (depending on weather and how crazy our Patrol Plane Commander was that day. He would also loiter (shut down) the outboard engines and fly on just the 2 inboards to extend our range.) The nice thing about airborne ASW (besides not being a target!) is that we put very little noise into the water. That made it much easier to detect and track the subs. Speed was another advantage. I will vouch that there is nothing quieter than a diesel boat on battery. But we did alright!
Because they are so quiet, almost all submarines have the advantage over even the most advanced surface combatant. The destroyer Caron was trying to detect and track a "cooperative" target submarine, a USN nuke of the (IIRC)Sturgeon class. This guy cut us all kinds of slack including running with about 6 feet or so of periscope showing above the water. He was too quiet for us to hear on the passive bow array and we had no towed sonar array in those days. No problem when we went active with the SQS-53C bow array though. Later, real world we were following carrier Coral Sea as her 'plane guard.' In those days only a few US destroyers had towed array sonar, we could only detect targets or noise sources ahead of us ... and Coral Sea was noisy as a major industrial foundry (so said our sonar techs) so it covered up any other sound sources ahead of us. The carrier had a cruiser, us (Caron) and another destroyer (DDG) plus one of the first Los Angeles class subs as her screen. The 688 found a Soviet Victor II or III class boat following the surface force. Her Captain opted to come to periscope depth, stick up a radio antenna and warn the group. The first inkling the Soviet had that anything was wrong was when the carrier, cruiser and one destroyer accelerated to Flank speed and the Spruance class Caron turned around and began hammering him with active sonar. I don't think he ever knew that he had been initially spotted by another sub.bow
The U.S. Navy was very interested in the extensive sonar gear and multiple listening posts on the German Heavy Cruiser Prinz Eugen ( I X 300 ) when she was examined at the Boston Navy Yard after the war. While German Naval Radar systems were inferior to our radar system's their sonar was better. Indeed our modern sonar was patterned after the German's. It was reported that during the Denmark Straits battle Prinz Eugen detected Hood and Prince of Wales with her sonar prior to a radar intercept.
Your map missed the USS Cod in Cleveland. It's the only Fleet Boat that has not had an entrance cut into it. Well worth visiting and while there check out the SS William Mather a Great Lakes ore boat.
I do believe he missed Cobia in Manitowoc, though im unsure is shes a fleet boat or not. But she is available to tour, and you can catch the last coal fired car ferry in the US, the SS Badger
Yeah I was surprised they missed Cod as well. Her berth is only a short distance from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. Just got back home from her dry docking a few weeks ago. She is still fully in WW2 configuration (she was never "guppied").
The USS Cobia is in Manitowoc, Wisconsin.! I took tours and got to sleeps multiple times on the Cobia in Boyscouts! She still floating in the water too, not dry docked. Cool to spend the night on those old bunks and hear the ice in the water hitting the side of the sub all night. Really makes you feel like you're experiencing what the guys who served on there experienced
One type of sonar which is difficult to find a lot of information about is “FM Sonar” developed under the direction of Admiral Lockhart in WW2. Designed and fielded to detect underwater mines for applications such as penetrating the Tsushima Straits entering the Sea of Japan.
We only turned the active sonar on for some war games. The cool thing about active is if a surface ship is active, the sub sonar registers every ship in the area pretty accurately.
@@artvandelay1099 The active may be used on ultra rare occasion l, maybe under ice , quick ping to lock down a target when no one else is around, or long range signal. In practice in was never turned on besides games.
I toured U-505 in Chicago at one point as a kid. The Chicago Science and Tech museum is a really great place. Their coal mine exhibit is amazingly immersive.
I was on the deck of diesel-electric submarine at Port Hueneme, near Oxnard, Ca. I was about 7 years old, and the sailors invited me down, as she was docked with most of the crew ashore. However, when the smell of diesel, dried vomit, and body odor hit me, I bolted, drawing laughs from the sailors...About 1964-65....
Just like aircraft have RADAR Altimeters for when flying low level, subs have SONAR for measuring depth under the keel. Both are active but are designed to be hard for the enemy to pick up. I have been on FF's that used Active Sonar and it can be an eerie sound.
The Thomas Edison SSBN 610 was equipped with a depth sounding sonar (the BQN-3) that emitted a "ping" that was designed to sound like biologics. The manual described it as "the sound of cetacean flatulance" A. K. A. whale farts!
I was on DEG-3 pre-FFG designation, and the sonarmen on that boat were some sharp cookies! Our main mission was tracking subs as a member of a hunter-killer group. We employed a LAMPS helicopter which operated in conjuction with the sonar guys. The objects those men could identify just boggled my brain! They could, by various means- none of which was I privy to- tell by the sound of the screw, what class sub they were tracking and they could detect many miles off a Soviet or any other navy's sub or surface vessel lighting off, getting underway, and many, many other parameters concerning a particular ship. Like I say, they were incredibly astute sailors and were the bain of every enemy craft which turned a screw anywhere within a couple hundred miles of us. Amazing stuff!
@@corkcamden9878 Most of my sailing time was on Knox class FF's with LAMPS Dets. Once while the ship had contact with a soviet sub but our helo was down for maintance. But we could still power up our gear, so we started manually tossing sonobouys over the side and relaying the signals to the ship.
@@corkcamden9878 Yeh. There was a SONAR frequency and repetition analyser called (when I was in) the AN/BQQ-3 which displayed spectrographic analysis for whatever sounds were fed into it. There was also a book containing spectrographic pictures of many different ships, and a match could identify a particular ship from its sound signature. I'm *sure* that this technology has only been improved upon in the last 50 years.
Just another outstanding video in a long line of fantastic videos. Kudos to you, Libby and all others behind the scenes! Looking forward to visiting the ship soon!
I had the privilege (hah!) to be on the USS Glover when they were testing the prototype LFAS sonar. Whenever it went active over rather low power, everyone under the waterline on the ship had to wear hearing protection. When it went high power, the cooling water loops for the amplifiers were unable to keep up for very long.
Diesel-electric subs are not limited to coastal waters. E.g. the Dutch Walrus class has a 10,000 nautical mile range. They regularly kill US carriers during exercises ;-)
Served on Uss Blenny SS 324 we were developing passive ranging sonar in the late fifties. Hydrophones were housed in three fiberglass shark fin like structures one at the bow one just behind the sail an on the stern. From the time delay that each set of hydrophones picked the signal from the target they could calculate speed course distance. Several years after I got out on a ferry to LI I saw new nukie boat with 3 shark fins on her deck guess it was worth all the time an effort everyone put in
@@yb5515 At close range it coagulates them. The active sonar had a pressure switch to prevent it from being operated above a certain depth. The power was high enough to boil the water in the sonar dome at shallow depths.
So you got to USS Batfish outside Muskogee,Oklahoma when you were a kid? Cool.She was going to Tulsa originally but the Arkansas River was too low and not yet dotted with locks and dams.I live a bit downriver and sometimes the size of the craft passing is awesome.Anyway we had such serious flooding in 2019 that she was floated off of her dry land mounting and moved causing some serious damage.She was closed to tours and hopefully the new dry berth will be more flood proof.If you get by Muskogee anytime soon the park itself is open.
There is something making noise on ANY vessel when it's underway. The thing on diesel-electric subs that is almost always making detectable noise is the 60hz generator.
Actually, European Built Subs would have a 50Hz Alternator! Since their normal (household) voltage is 250VAC/50Hz (Along with a pure DC Generator.). But I'm never heard what their Industrial Power systems are.... (In. the US: 110 to 120 VAC, 208VAC, 220 to 240 VAC, 277VAC, & 440 to 480 VAC. (note: in areas that are 110 and 115 VAC, I'm not too sure what their equivalent for 208 or 277 is!). Ugh! I kinda wish we had straight 120 as the main household voltage through out the US!!! Note: some electrical and electronic devices are rate for 130 volts to withstand power surges better, however the line voltage is still 110 to 120 VAC.
I qualified sonar operator on the AN/BQR-2 passive (stack to left) BQR-7 and BQS-4 he is sitting in front of, sonar systems in 1977 on a fleet missile boat. Hated the BQR-2, no desk or place to rest your arms. Got tired after a 1 hour stack rotation on a 6 hour watch.
I've been aboard 3 ships (in their order: FFG-15 USS Estocin, FF-1040 USS Garcia, and FFG-23 Puller). I've also have been stationed ashore at Naval Facility Cape Hatteras which had TWO Very Large Passive Sonar Arrays!!!
I the 70s average detection range for a nuc boat was 6-8kyds from steam noise from reactor. A diesel boat on the battery about 600 yards. The only main sound was motor slot frequency.
Great episode Ryan! It’s not strictly true that carriers don’t have anti-submarine capability of course (not to be pedantic). I believe they use helicopters now even though I don’t remember the variant of same. Maybe MH-60R?
I've been on a ship with sonar - a Burke-class destroyer. The SQS-53's active mode has a very distinctive sound. There's another video on RUclips where a diver can clearly hear it, though the ship is nowhere near. (It could be a Tico or a Spruance - they have/had the same sonar.)
im trying to get him to visit silversides he lives a couple hours from it. hes staying in his house due to covid. he is overweight so I dont blame him one bit. once covid risk is less he said he would consider it. it would be cool if the sonar still works
One good example for super silent submarines are the German fuel cell powered ones. No need for batterie recharge , so they can stay below a very long time
Ryan of the Battleship USS New Jersey Museum and Memorial - I figure with the New Jersey's 1980's configuration with that nice big flight deck on the fantail of the ship could have a Seahawk helicopter onboard to seek out submarines
One thing I heard is that some nuclear subs have a coating on that holds bubbles underneath that help kill sound transfer. they also have dampeners on treadmills and such. I heard of a Russian sub that lost their exterior coating so I think they said it may have been easier to track.
In 1973, I seem to recall spending some time on the USS Neversail, or USS Recruit for you sticklers, in San Diego, listening to Sonar recordings. I think it was to see if a recruit was remotely capable of standing Sonar watches. I believe I was an abject failure in this ability.
I would say modern diesel-electrics are quieter than modern nuclear subs, but subs of this era were still built to operate mostly on the surface, so were not optimized for being quiet while submerged.
Aircraft have in inherent advantage in finding very quiet submarines. They can use active sonar with impunity because the aircraft is not co-located with the source. Helicopter dipping sonar excepted.
Except for two things. 1) they need a starting datum point 2) finite number of passive and active buoys. Once an active signal is detected, the sub, at maximum quiet speed just moves away or moves above or below the layer, depending on the estimated depth of the transducer and go to a higher speed.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer Dippers work in pairs. One aircraft pings, gets a location, and the second aircraft moves to that location. Repeat until the error is within weapons acquisition range. MPA can lay a buoy pattern and use explosive echo ranging to locate the target in the field. When they get the location down they drop DICASS active buoys for a targeting solution. I used to do this stuff for a living.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer A sonobuoy field can extend over a wide area for search EER is a multistatic system and czn get hits on multiple buoys at once which narrows the location down quickly.
Conventional submarines have some other major advantages over nuclear for most countries, they are cheaper so you can afford them where nuclear is out of reach for economical reasons. Nuclear technology is also more controlled so there is not multiple countries that are willing to sell them like there are for conventional submarines. India did leas two nuclear submarines from the Soviet Union/Russia. US and UK will cooperate with Australia for nuclear sub-construction but that is if I am not mistaken the only international technology exchange. So counties would need to develop their own reactors and submarines and that costs an enormous amount of money India has recently built their own nuclear submarines but the reaction is if I am not mistaken an Indian design. France is cooperating with Brazin for their nuclear submarines but the reaction is Brazilan, the plans to get nuclear submarines started in the 1970s and is currently under construction. So even if nuclear submarines the best option and you have enough money there might not be any way to get them that does not take decades.
As i recall, when "rigged for ultra quiet" we'd shut down one turbo-generator, all possible lube pumps, recirc pumps, etc., and both drive turbines, open the drive clutch, and run on the EPM. In that configuration, we were *nearly* as quiet as a diesel boat.
I would think IF they were to have outfitted USS New Jersey with a sonar capability it would have to be a towed array, similar to what submarines use to hear whats in their baffles.
In fairness, it's a very broad subject. For naval history, Drachinifiel comes into mind. For naval architecture, DMS presents highly technical videos on aspects like bow design, propllers etc. For modern submarines, Sub Brief and HI Sutton channels are informative. HI suttom also wrote a book on the types Narco Subs.
my sport fishing boat has an Imaging sonar fish finder i can see objects pretty clearly down to 200 feet and less clear deeper...could I "see" a submarine at 400- 500 feet... hell yeah...
1:43 (cough) what a coincidence, I would never ever ever do such a thing 😀... Just like I have never gone on vacation and there just.... happens.... to be a triathlon at the same time and place... and I coincidentally have all my race gear with me.... (cough) never happens 😀😃😄.
I wonder if modern diesel-electric submarines use Lithium-ion batteries instead of lead-acid batteries... they have to at this point... It's funny to think of a submarine running on cell phone or laptop batteries, although I'm sure the military grade lithium ion batteries are a bit more robust than a cell phone battery 🙂.
Soryu Class - Japan - became operational around 2010 are Lithium-ion batteries. I did not full search - might be only / Class Nation with Lithium ion batteries . Nuclear Powered submarines - only USA, UK, France, Russia, China, India, and coming in 2030 Australia. - the First 3 listed are Nuclear Submarines only . Side Note sonars - I believe World War II Cruisers generally did NOT have SONAR - Modern Cruiser (Ticonderoga, Leahy, Belknap) have SONAR.
@@wfoj21 yup, only recently has lithium ion batteries has been used due to problems of it heating up. Also, not mentioned are the AIP subs with power provided by fuel cells (German 212 class) or stirling engines (Swedish Gotland class). Extends the range from days to weeks but is expensive and speed is still far less than on a nuke boat.
IDK about modern boats, but definitely boats of the era of Becuna have to keep water flowing over the dive planes in order to maintain depth. So, completely stopping is out of the question unless surfaced.
Not true. Water can easily be pumped to and from trim tanks to maintain neutral buoyancy. SSBNs actually have a pair of trim tanks amidships called "hover tanks", one of which can be pressurized, and the other vented to inside air. A joystick on the BCP (Ballast Control Panel) allows nearly instantaneous blowing or flooding to or from sea and either hov-1 or hov÷2 (depending on which was pressurized or vented).. Granted, most boats tend to operate at slightly negative buoyancy, and use the lift generated by the diving planes to maintain precise depth control, but they can all be trimmed to neutral buoyancy by pumping to and from trim tanks.
Notice I said boats of THAT ERA. Imagine trying to trim the ballast tanks by turning a myriad of hand operated valves. It's not something I imagine would be worth the effort required. I'm vaguely aware modern subs like SSBNs can hover. This is one of the chief things that enables submerged vertical launches.
@@LexieAssassin When I was in (late 60s/early 70s) the diesel boats that I helped work on had electrically operated Vickers valves for trim control. Definitely not true hover, but not totally manual, either.
I'm admittedly less familiar with US fleet boats, but AFAIK, all the German WWII era subs all used hand operated valves. Near as I'm aware, that was what all boats of that era used, but I could be wrong.
they were not the fist smart cars, yes they were electric but they had electric cars since at least the 1920's and electric locomotives since eddison built one to move about the generating stations when he built them to start electrofying the cities of the east coast. if not earier then that
@@ghost307 thank you, though I do know at least of edison having one of the first electric railroads on a large scale, and them using electrics to come into the nations capital to cut down on smoke very early on
@@manga12 Edison was best at self-promotion...and not much else. His locomotive came out in 1880. They started running in Scotland in 1837. If Edison invented anything that is still popular today it's called market research. He did research to see what people would buy and used that to give the marching orders as to what to work on. If he found that there was no market for something he didn't spend any resources pursuing it.
Screw them. It's a decision that's been pretty well received here in Australia as the right thing to do. The contract was a train wreck in progress anyway.
One drunken night a friend of mine, who was a sonar man on a 688 in the mid 70's (Los Angeles class attack sub), told me a story. Technically he was still sworn to secrecy over this incident, but he was very well lubricated at the time and it was many years later.
The boat was off the Soviet Pacific coast line, near the port of Vladivostok and the nearby Soviet naval base. They were sent there to get the sonar signature of a new class of Soviet sub... and they were too close, well within Russian territorial waters. And then suddenly, the 688 ran aground. Bow stuck hard on the mud. They tried everything they could think of to do quietly to get off, gently rocking it, slow reverse... No go. Hours went by, a whole day stuck down there. The suction from the mud was too hard to break. The noise they made attracted some patrolling Soviet surface warships, who started active pinging and randomly dropping depth charges. The captain finally decided he had enough of this, and simultaneously blew air out of the forward torpedo tubes while going to flank reverse. They broke free, and got the hell out of there at top speed (which was pretty darned fast, more than was published). They were chased on the surface by the Russians until they got to deep water, where they lost them. My friend said they were lucky a Russian attack sub was not there; it was only destroyers and frigates after them. They didn't get the signature, but they got home ;)
You guys missed out on the U505 in Chicago on the map of museum subs. It's a German submarine in ww2 configuration literally in a museum... I highly recommend it.
Took my kids there in the 90s, awesome museum, right after visiting the Feild of Dreams in Iowa.
Also The USS Cobia
in Manitowoc, Wisconsin! I took tours and got to sleep multiple times on the Cobia in Boyscouts! She still floating in the water too, not dry docked. Cool to spend the night on those old bunks and hear the ice in the water hitting the side of the sub all night. Really makes you feel like you're experiencing what the guys who served on there experienced
@@nathangebben5738 My father-in-law served on that boat in WWII in the aft torpedo room!
I think the map is just the museums part of one organization.
@@nathangebben5738 then hop on ss Badger sail into Ludington and do it again on Uss Silversides then drive down to cod in Ohio and back to Wi via the U505 in Chicago
Myself and my daughter had the privilege of a tour by a crewmen who served on the becuna during WW2. He explained so much to her it was amazing to me! She has not forgotten that to this day and my seeing him explain it to her will last for decades to come!
Research boat, she had a towed array that we could use either to scan the seafloor or use it to talk with an ASV. One of my professors was doing a shallow seafloor research experiment, they lowered a transducer to the seafloor to get their readings and starting getting a bunch of clicks and booms, thinking that the array was damaged they raised it up only to find that the array was perfectly fine to they lowered it back down and heard the same clicks and booms, so my professor dons his wetsuit and goes for a little swim... when he came back up he was smiling and said that some pistol shrimp where duking it out in not about ten feet from where the array was located...
I read a story where a sub heard the shrimp noises, and someone on board knew what they were. Had the torpedo tube outer doors opened for a while, then closed, and they had fresh shrimp for several meals.
Pistol Shrimp are amazing. The snap they make with their claw causes bubble cavitation, and the implosion makes a tiny ball-lightening plasma that can give off light. Sonoluminescence is thought by some scientists to be capable of nuclear fusion with temps in the range of 4-6k degrees Kelvin inside the tiny imploding bubble.
My dad was an ensign on the Becuna during the Korean War. He also served on the Nautilus briefly. If he was alive I would send him the link. I'll have to go visit the boat in Philly.
Having served aboard the USS Thomas Edison SSBN 610, yes I've been on a ship with SONAR. As a matter of fact, the Edison was equipped with (among other SONARs) the AN/BQS4 and the AN/BQR2 which appear to be the very SONARs you're sitting in front of! I spent a fair amount of time sitting in front of the BQR2 (and even *more* in front of the BQR7).
Great series!
I was on the USS Nathaniel Greene SSBN 636 I was a Torpedoman.
I was on the USS Stonewall Jackson (SSBN634). While not an ST (I was an YN), I did like going into the sonar shack and listening to the BQR-21 to pass the time away.
One night while sitting midwatch helmsman/planesman watch, the WLR-9 alarms kept going off. The OOD called into sonar… “Sonar - Conn, report on WLR-9 alarm.” “Conn - Sonar, biologics.” Over the next twenty minutes or so, it kept going off over and over again. Everybody in control… QMOW, DOOW, COW, helmsman and planesman were pretty much ignoring it but not the OOD. He was becoming unglued and was really really agitated by the alarms when suddenly picks up the mic and yells “SONAR - CONN, WHAT IS THE WLR-9!!” In the calmest voice ever, the Sonar Sup replies, “Conn - Sonar, the WLR-9 is an acoustic intercept receiver.”
DOH!
wow someone who actually knows JETDS nomenclature. B=underwater, Q= sonar, S-detecting.
@@brianbranson2306
I always thought that the "S" stood for "Sending" and "R" for "Recieving" since the BQS was the active/transmitting part of the pair (with the transmitting transducer located in the middle of the BQR's circular array) and the BQR was the passive (or Receiving) part of the pair.
I certainly could be wrong, though. I'm no expert on AN numbers.
Sure I've been out on a boat with sonar. In my case it's a fish finder. :-) Thanks for sharing!
You beat me to it. Also now I'm imagining fishing with depth charges.
Still didn't catch anything?
We had a distinct advantage with our passive sonar. Our hydrophones were in the water, but we weren’t! I and my crew were in a US Navy P-3 Orion, usually flying about 300 - 500 feet (depending on weather and how crazy our Patrol Plane Commander was that day. He would also loiter (shut down) the outboard engines and fly on just the 2 inboards to extend our range.)
The nice thing about airborne ASW (besides not being a target!) is that we put very little noise into the water. That made it much easier to detect and track the subs. Speed was another advantage. I will vouch that there is nothing quieter than a diesel boat on battery. But we did alright!
Because they are so quiet, almost all submarines have the advantage over even the most advanced surface combatant. The destroyer Caron was trying to detect and track a "cooperative" target submarine, a USN nuke of the (IIRC)Sturgeon class. This guy cut us all kinds of slack including running with about 6 feet or so of periscope showing above the water.
He was too quiet for us to hear on the passive bow array and we had no towed sonar array in those days. No problem when we went active with the SQS-53C bow array though.
Later, real world we were following carrier Coral Sea as her 'plane guard.' In those days only a few US destroyers had towed array sonar, we could only detect targets or noise sources ahead of us ... and Coral Sea was noisy as a major industrial foundry (so said our sonar techs) so it covered up any other sound sources ahead of us.
The carrier had a cruiser, us (Caron) and another destroyer (DDG) plus one of the first Los Angeles class subs as her screen. The 688 found a Soviet Victor II or III class boat following the surface force. Her Captain opted to come to periscope depth, stick up a radio antenna and warn the group. The first inkling the Soviet had that anything was wrong was when the carrier, cruiser and one destroyer accelerated to Flank speed and the Spruance class Caron turned around and began hammering him with active sonar. I don't think he ever knew that he had been initially spotted by another sub.bow
The U.S. Navy was very interested in the extensive sonar gear and multiple listening posts on the German Heavy Cruiser Prinz Eugen ( I X 300 ) when she was examined at the Boston Navy Yard after the war. While German Naval Radar systems were inferior to our radar system's their sonar was better. Indeed our modern sonar was patterned after the German's. It was reported that during the Denmark Straits battle Prinz Eugen detected Hood and Prince of Wales with her sonar prior to a radar intercept.
Informative comment, thanks Philip.
litterly had to listen to a ship ping sonar for 3 hours last night while i was on watch
Your map missed the USS Cod in Cleveland. It's the only Fleet Boat that has not had an entrance cut into it. Well worth visiting and while there check out the SS William Mather a Great Lakes ore boat.
The guppy conversion in little rock doesn't (at least as of a few years ago i believe)
I do believe he missed Cobia in Manitowoc, though im unsure is shes a fleet boat or not. But she is available to tour, and you can catch the last coal fired car ferry in the US, the SS Badger
Oops... as an edit: pretty sure they have cut access ports into Cobia.
Yeah I was surprised they missed Cod as well. Her berth is only a short distance from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. Just got back home from her dry docking a few weeks ago. She is still fully in WW2 configuration (she was never "guppied").
Astonished that they missed the Cod, in Cleveland. Especially since they have mentioned its recent dry dock in another episode.
The USS Cobia is
in Manitowoc, Wisconsin.! I took tours and got to sleeps multiple times on the Cobia in Boyscouts! She still floating in the water too, not dry docked. Cool to spend the night on those old bunks and hear the ice in the water hitting the side of the sub all night. Really makes you feel like you're experiencing what the guys who served on there experienced
There is a museum ship that you can tour in the heart of Chicago - the U-505 at the Museum of Science and industry.
5+ miles south of the Loop on LSD is not the "heart" of Chicago.
One type of sonar which is difficult to find a lot of information about is “FM Sonar” developed under the direction of Admiral Lockhart in WW2. Designed and fielded to detect underwater mines for applications such as penetrating the Tsushima Straits entering the Sea of Japan.
I think there was a Silent Service episode about that.
@@davidneel8327 and a book hydmans hellcats perhaps
Ned Beach describes that system when he commanded USS Piper into the Sea of Japan during summer 1945 in his book "Submarine!".
We only turned the active sonar on for some war games. The cool thing about active is if a surface ship is active, the sub sonar registers every ship in the area pretty accurately.
How was active sonar used? If it gives away your position, why equip it at all? I'm sure it wasn't used exclusively during war games.
@@artvandelay1099 The active may be used on ultra rare occasion l, maybe under ice , quick ping to lock down a target when no one else is around, or long range signal. In practice in was never turned on besides games.
The audio examples of the subject were a nice touch.
I toured U-505 in Chicago at one point as a kid. The Chicago Science and Tech museum is a really great place. Their coal mine exhibit is amazingly immersive.
I was on the deck of diesel-electric submarine at Port Hueneme, near Oxnard, Ca. I was about 7 years old, and the sailors invited me down, as she was docked with most of the crew ashore. However, when the smell of diesel, dried vomit, and body odor hit me, I bolted, drawing laughs from the sailors...About 1964-65....
this is quickly becoming a favorite channel!!! Drachinifel and across the pond, Battleship New Jersey!!!
I hope Drach can go after the pandemic has gone away.
Just like aircraft have RADAR Altimeters for when flying low level, subs have SONAR for measuring depth under the keel. Both are active but are designed to be hard for the enemy to pick up. I have been on FF's that used Active Sonar and it can be an eerie sound.
The Thomas Edison SSBN 610 was equipped with a depth sounding sonar (the BQN-3) that emitted a "ping" that was designed to sound like biologics. The manual described it as "the sound of cetacean flatulance" A. K. A. whale farts!
I was on DEG-3 pre-FFG designation, and the sonarmen on that boat were some sharp cookies! Our main mission was tracking subs as a member of a hunter-killer group. We employed a LAMPS helicopter which operated in conjuction with the sonar guys. The objects those men could identify just boggled my brain! They could, by various means- none of which was I privy to- tell by the sound of the screw, what class sub they were tracking and they could detect many miles off a Soviet or any other navy's sub or surface vessel lighting off, getting underway, and many, many other parameters concerning a particular ship. Like I say, they were incredibly astute sailors and were the bain of every enemy craft which turned a screw anywhere within a couple hundred miles of us. Amazing stuff!
@@corkcamden9878 Most of my sailing time was on Knox class FF's with LAMPS Dets. Once while the ship had contact with a soviet sub but our helo was down for maintance. But we could still power up our gear, so we started manually tossing sonobouys over the side and relaying the signals to the ship.
@@corkcamden9878
Yeh. There was a SONAR frequency and repetition analyser called (when I was in) the AN/BQQ-3 which displayed spectrographic analysis for whatever sounds were fed into it. There was also a book containing spectrographic pictures of many different ships, and a match could identify a particular ship from its sound signature. I'm *sure* that this technology has only been improved upon in the last 50 years.
Just another outstanding video in a long line of fantastic videos. Kudos to you, Libby and all others behind the scenes! Looking forward to visiting the ship soon!
U 995 Type VII c in Laboe Germany and German fed navy u9 type 205 in Spayer Germany. Thanks for the great videos
I had the privilege (hah!) to be on the USS Glover when they were testing the prototype LFAS sonar. Whenever it went active over rather low power, everyone under the waterline on the ship had to wear hearing protection. When it went high power, the cooling water loops for the amplifiers were unable to keep up for very long.
Diesel-electric subs are not limited to coastal waters. E.g. the Dutch Walrus class has a 10,000 nautical mile range.
They regularly kill US carriers during exercises ;-)
Served on Uss Blenny SS 324 we were developing passive ranging sonar in the late fifties. Hydrophones were housed in three fiberglass shark fin like structures one at the bow one just behind the sail an on the stern. From the time delay that each set of hydrophones picked the signal from the target they could calculate speed course distance. Several years after I got out on a ferry to LI I saw new nukie boat with 3 shark fins on her deck guess it was worth all the time an effort everyone put in
It was called PUFFS, Passive Underwater Fire Control Feasibility System.
Most frequent use of active sonar on my boats was in port to discourage attack by swimmers.
OK now I'm curious, do swimmers hear active sonar?
@@yb5515 At close range it coagulates them. The active sonar had a pressure switch to prevent it from being operated above a certain depth. The power was high enough to boil the water in the sonar dome at shallow depths.
@@dbfbobt How is it legal then to use in port?
@@yb5515 because it's illegal to swim up to a war ship
@@kainhall I didn't know that, and now I do, thank you. PS it wasn't on my list of things to do anyway especially since I swim like an anchor.
I was stationed on the USS Curts FFG-38 and was the Active SONAR operator/maintenance technician.
Good presentation. Nice touch with the sonar ambient sounds.
So you got to USS Batfish outside Muskogee,Oklahoma when you were a kid? Cool.She was going to Tulsa originally but the Arkansas River was too low and not yet dotted with locks and dams.I live a bit downriver and sometimes the size of the craft passing is awesome.Anyway we had such serious flooding in 2019 that she was floated off of her dry land mounting and moved causing some serious damage.She was closed to tours and hopefully the new dry berth will be more flood proof.If you get by Muskogee anytime soon the park itself is open.
Yes I have. I was in a forward compartment and the sonor made sleeping easier
USS Becuna is so cool!
There is something making noise on ANY vessel when it's underway. The thing on diesel-electric subs that is almost always making detectable noise is the 60hz generator.
I wonder if you could run one motor 180 degrees out of phase with the other and cancel out the noise.
Actually, European Built Subs would have a 50Hz Alternator! Since their normal (household) voltage is 250VAC/50Hz (Along with a pure DC Generator.). But I'm never heard what their Industrial Power systems are.... (In. the US: 110 to 120 VAC, 208VAC, 220 to 240 VAC, 277VAC, & 440 to 480 VAC. (note: in areas that are 110 and 115 VAC, I'm not too sure what their equivalent for 208 or 277 is!). Ugh! I kinda wish we had straight 120 as the main household voltage through out the US!!! Note: some electrical and electronic devices are rate for 130 volts to withstand power surges better, however the line voltage is still 110 to 120 VAC.
Can you go over the guppy Ia conversion that the sub went through? Or is that an upcoming episode 🙂?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Underwater_Propulsion_Power_Program
Great content!
I qualified sonar operator on the AN/BQR-2 passive (stack to left) BQR-7 and BQS-4 he is sitting in front of, sonar systems in 1977 on a fleet missile boat. Hated the BQR-2, no desk or place to rest your arms. Got tired after a 1 hour stack rotation on a 6 hour watch.
I've been aboard 3 ships (in their order: FFG-15 USS Estocin, FF-1040 USS Garcia, and FFG-23 Puller). I've also have been stationed ashore at Naval Facility Cape Hatteras which had TWO Very Large Passive Sonar Arrays!!!
Part of SOSUS - a network of very sensitive passive SONARs that encompass the entire coastal areas of the U. S.
I the 70s average detection range for a nuc boat was 6-8kyds from steam noise from reactor. A diesel boat on the battery about 600 yards. The only main sound was motor slot frequency.
Great episode Ryan! It’s not strictly true that carriers don’t have anti-submarine capability of course (not to be pedantic). I believe they use helicopters now even though I don’t remember the variant of same. Maybe MH-60R?
Pointing out inaccuracies and errors of omission is not being pedantic!
In my most humble opinion mind you. 👍 🖖
I've been on a ship with sonar - a Burke-class destroyer. The SQS-53's active mode has a very distinctive sound. There's another video on RUclips where a diver can clearly hear it, though the ship is nowhere near. (It could be a Tico or a Spruance - they have/had the same sonar.)
It would be interesting for youtuber Jive Turkey, a former nuclear submariner, to do a collab on a video on ww2 era sonar.
I had the same thoughts.
That would be awesome!
Are you talking about Aaron?
im trying to get him to visit silversides he lives a couple hours from it. hes staying in his house due to covid. he is overweight so I dont blame him one bit. once covid risk is less he said he would consider it. it would be cool if the sonar still works
Cool I like the sounds.
Cool video and thankyou for making it.
Closest I came was the USS Oldendorf She was fresh from the builders yard but no electronics had been fitted yet
Great video!!
One good example for super silent submarines are the German fuel cell powered ones. No need for batterie recharge , so they can stay below a very long time
Uss America had a sonar. We could hear it in active mode on the Uss Ranger when she relived us in Yankee Station
Ryan of the Battleship USS New Jersey Museum and Memorial - I figure with the New Jersey's 1980's configuration with that nice big flight deck on the fantail of the ship could have a Seahawk helicopter onboard to seek out submarines
very very cool
"Give me a ping, Vasily. One ping only, please."
One thing I heard is that some nuclear subs have a coating on that holds bubbles underneath that help kill sound transfer. they also have dampeners on treadmills and such. I heard of a Russian sub that lost their exterior coating so I think they said it may have been easier to track.
I think it's rubber coating to attenuate active sonar. Noisy equipment are on rubber rafters to lower the sound.
The UK was one of the first to cut the noise signature via rafts and other technologies.
Great video.
In 1973, I seem to recall spending some time on the USS Neversail, or USS Recruit for you sticklers, in San Diego, listening to Sonar recordings. I think it was to see if a recruit was remotely capable of standing Sonar watches. I believe I was an abject failure in this ability.
Speaking of museum ships did you ever get a chance to visit the uss inaugural in St. Louis before it sank in the flood 1993
I would say modern diesel-electrics are quieter than modern nuclear subs, but subs of this era were still built to operate mostly on the surface, so were not optimized for being quiet while submerged.
Missed the USS Cod in Cleveland.
Aircraft have in inherent advantage in finding very quiet submarines. They can use active sonar with impunity because the aircraft is not co-located with the source. Helicopter dipping sonar excepted.
Except for two things. 1) they need a starting datum point 2) finite number of passive and active buoys. Once an active signal is detected, the sub, at maximum quiet speed just moves away or moves above or below the layer, depending on the estimated depth of the transducer and go to a higher speed.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer Dippers work in pairs. One aircraft pings, gets a location, and the second aircraft moves to that location. Repeat until the error is within weapons acquisition range.
MPA can lay a buoy pattern and use explosive echo ranging to locate the target in the field. When they get the location down they drop DICASS active buoys for a targeting solution. I used to do this stuff for a living.
@@johnshepherd8687 you still need a starting point as I said. Active or explosive ranging can be detected further than they can detect, as you know.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer A sonobuoy field can extend over a wide area for search EER is a multistatic system and czn get hits on multiple buoys at once which narrows the location down quickly.
Other than submarines, what underwater objects would a battleship need to fight? Do you know something that I don't, Ryan?
Underwater mines and sea turtles with a grudge come to mind.
@@Najolve I didn't think about mines. Angry sea turtles however, that could be a huge threat.
The aliens from The Abyss.
Mines
Sharks with laser beams and mutated sea bass?
Cool episode, with the added relevant sounds. Love me some whales.
Q5D oh how I miss thee.
He almost name-dropped REQUIN in Pittsburgh. He was so very close.
Conventional submarines have some other major advantages over nuclear for most countries, they are cheaper so you can afford them where nuclear is out of reach for economical reasons.
Nuclear technology is also more controlled so there is not multiple countries that are willing to sell them like there are for conventional submarines. India did leas two nuclear submarines from the Soviet Union/Russia. US and UK will cooperate with Australia for nuclear sub-construction but that is if I am not mistaken the only international technology exchange. So counties would need to develop their own reactors and submarines and that costs an enormous amount of money
India has recently built their own nuclear submarines but the reaction is if I am not mistaken an Indian design. France is cooperating with Brazin for their nuclear submarines but the reaction is Brazilan, the plans to get nuclear submarines started in the 1970s and is currently under construction.
So even if nuclear submarines the best option and you have enough money there might not be any way to get them that does not take decades.
you missed uss cod in Cleveland on your map, she just came out of dry dock
Cool
"One ping, please "
How many Kilowatt Hours of energy did Becuna store in her batteries?
Smelling like pickles might be better than the normal smells on a submarine.
Have they combined a smaller nuclear steam generator with a large battery when wanting to be really quiet during "silent running"?
As i recall, when "rigged for ultra quiet" we'd shut down one turbo-generator, all possible lube pumps, recirc pumps, etc., and both drive turbines, open the drive clutch, and run on the EPM.
In that configuration, we were *nearly* as quiet as a diesel boat.
Why are there more subs museum ships?
I would think IF they were to have outfitted USS New Jersey with a sonar capability it would have to be a towed array, similar to what submarines use to hear whats in their baffles.
SQQ-14 variable depth sonar
1:30 Chicago lmfao a void space........sorta there re ships and submarines near us too
A P-3 aircraft could activate pinging via a sonobouy
Yet Florida with water on 3 sides has just a victory ship in Tampa as for sonar my 10ft boat has it. its called a fish finder!
Florida also has the Coast Guarrd Cutter Ingham in Key West
👍👍👍👊😎
Does a battleship have a fathometer?
The fact that this channel doesn't have 7B subscribers implies that the other 6999 million people are getting their maritime knowledge somewhere else
In fairness, it's a very broad subject. For naval history, Drachinifiel comes into mind. For naval architecture, DMS presents highly technical videos on aspects like bow design, propllers etc. For modern submarines, Sub Brief and HI Sutton channels are informative. HI suttom also wrote a book on the types Narco Subs.
Admiral Kuznetsov and Peter the Great...... Horse-jaw sonar...... Shallow water mode........180 second broad band pulse ....... alternating pattern.
my sport fishing boat has an Imaging sonar fish finder i can see objects pretty clearly down to 200 feet and less clear deeper...could I "see" a submarine at 400- 500 feet... hell yeah...
1:43 (cough) what a coincidence, I would never ever ever do such a thing 😀... Just like I have never gone on vacation and there just.... happens.... to be a triathlon at the same time and place... and I coincidentally have all my race gear with me.... (cough) never happens 😀😃😄.
Most Submariners know where are boats are located. The diesel boats was called pig boats.
Sound effects ?!? There goes the budget 😂
The Olympia next to it has sonar - just a really really early primitive version of it.
Are you sure about that?
@@corkcamden9878 it has a Fessenden Oscillator in it. I had no clue until i saw it on a hardhat tour
I wonder if modern diesel-electric submarines use Lithium-ion batteries instead of lead-acid batteries... they have to at this point...
It's funny to think of a submarine running on cell phone or laptop batteries, although I'm sure the military grade lithium ion batteries are a bit more robust than a cell phone battery 🙂.
Soryu Class - Japan - became operational around 2010 are Lithium-ion batteries. I did not full search - might be only / Class Nation with Lithium ion batteries . Nuclear Powered submarines - only USA, UK, France, Russia, China, India, and coming in 2030 Australia. - the First 3 listed are Nuclear Submarines only . Side Note sonars - I believe World War II Cruisers generally did NOT have SONAR - Modern Cruiser (Ticonderoga, Leahy, Belknap) have SONAR.
@@wfoj21 yup, only recently has lithium ion batteries has been used due to problems of it heating up.
Also, not mentioned are the AIP subs with power provided by fuel cells (German 212 class) or stirling engines (Swedish Gotland class). Extends the range from days to weeks but is expensive and speed is still far less than on a nuke boat.
IDK about modern boats, but definitely boats of the era of Becuna have to keep water flowing over the dive planes in order to maintain depth. So, completely stopping is out of the question unless surfaced.
Not true.
Water can easily be pumped to and from trim tanks to maintain neutral buoyancy. SSBNs actually have a pair of trim tanks amidships called "hover tanks", one of which can be pressurized, and the other vented to inside air. A joystick on the BCP (Ballast Control Panel) allows nearly instantaneous blowing or flooding to or from sea and either hov-1 or hov÷2 (depending on which was pressurized or vented)..
Granted, most boats tend to operate at slightly negative buoyancy, and use the lift generated by the diving planes to maintain precise depth control, but they can all be trimmed to neutral buoyancy by pumping to and from trim tanks.
Notice I said boats of THAT ERA. Imagine trying to trim the ballast tanks by turning a myriad of hand operated valves. It's not something I imagine would be worth the effort required. I'm vaguely aware modern subs like SSBNs can hover. This is one of the chief things that enables submerged vertical launches.
@@LexieAssassin
When I was in (late 60s/early 70s) the diesel boats that I helped work on had electrically operated Vickers valves for trim control. Definitely not true hover, but not totally manual, either.
I'm admittedly less familiar with US fleet boats, but AFAIK, all the German WWII era subs all used hand operated valves. Near as I'm aware, that was what all boats of that era used, but I could be wrong.
@@LexieAssassin
I think that the changeover to Vickers valves was part of the Guppy conversion.
Nu-klee-urr.
Diesel-Electrics are running on the motors underwater. They aren't using the engines. Diesel engines charge electric motors.
Where's the waterfall display?
Don't think there is one on a boat that old.
Its too old to have the modern waterfall display but it would have the old analog equivalent namely the paper trace version
@@paulmurphy773
Exactly. One that used a scanning spark gap to mark on a thermal sensitive paper roll.
I'll remember that smell until my dying day.
Just look up "us aircraft carrier sunk by swedish submarine"
they were not the fist smart cars, yes they were electric but they had electric cars since at least the 1920's and electric locomotives since eddison built one to move about the generating stations when he built them to start electrofying the cities of the east coast. if not earier then that
The fist electric car came out in the mid 1800's...and they're still impractical for most drivers.
Electric locomotives...1834.
@@ghost307 thank you, though I do know at least of edison having one of the first electric railroads on a large scale, and them using electrics to come into the nations capital to cut down on smoke very early on
@@manga12 Edison was best at self-promotion...and not much else.
His locomotive came out in 1880.
They started running in Scotland in 1837.
If Edison invented anything that is still popular today it's called market research.
He did research to see what people would buy and used that to give the marching orders as to what to work on.
If he found that there was no market for something he didn't spend any resources pursuing it.
Who dislikes these videos, Japanese merchant captains?
Give me a ping Vasily, one ping only please.
Screw them. It's a decision that's been pretty well received here in Australia as the right thing to do. The contract was a train wreck in progress anyway.
@@Spookieham friend, I think you replied to wrong comment.
More 'so-ing' than Betsy Ross.
Ryan, I love your work. You are too educated to keep mispronouncing “nuclear.”
oklahoma batfish
Russian Battlecruisers have Sonar..
Watching these sub videos just makes me sad about the Ling .
You forgot that Australia is now going to go to nuclear subs. This has caused a big problem with France.
Funny enough, we filmed this just before that was announced and were kicking ourselves
Anything that upsets France gets a thumbs up from me! 😂
@@mstevens113 this is backstabbing of an ally, nothing to laugh especially the loss of jobs as thr subs were I think be at least built in Australia.
Don't hate me, I'm a Virgo.
More whales!
Admiral, there be whales here!
@@LegoTux - I...know...Scotty...that's why we're here...