Zinc Plating Problems - Fixing the Elefant - Episode #3
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- I am fixing my rare Cagiva 750 Elefant adventure motorcycle. Cagiva is a brand that no longer exists, finding parts to this bike is not easy. Because of this I decided to reuse the old rusted fasteners for the rear wheel and rear brakes, and the way to go for a DIY'er is to zinc plate the parts to add rust protection. The zinc plating did turn out OK, but it was not as easy as I hoped for. The final result is also a challenge, it's min actually not be as good as I first thought without extra treatment after the plating.
This video is part of a video series where I am trying to get my Cagiva 750 Elefant fixed in quite a hurry! I have promised to go on a roadtrip together with my friend @tshansen can I get my bike ready in time?
#cagiva #adventure #elefant
Music:
"Minor Lament for Solo Bass" by John Patitucci
"Moorland" by Underbelly & Ty Mayer
"The Movement of India" by Aakash Gandhi
That’s a long list you have there. Well done of the discipline of keeping to it as much as possible
Thanks 😊 it's very tempting to include new tasks as they pop up, especially those that seem to be easy and fun. I'll try my best to stay focused and follow the prioritized list growing forward.
@@kihestadit must also be double tricky to do what is good for the channel/on-camera balanced with what’ll be good for your bike and the trip. Or maybe not maybe having an extra variable makes some things easier?
It's the latter for me 😊 I enjoy making videos, and challenging tasks are perfect for making the video more interesting. Since I enjoy making videos and I enjoy repairing stuff, combining these is just doubling the motivation😁
Personally, I like the matte finish of the zinc plating. It provides a nice contrast to all the surrounding parts. One method I've used in the past for visible metal parts is to heat them up with a torch and plunge them into oil. It's important you don't heat them up too much and lose the temper of the metal. They turn a nice, shiny black and seem to wear well and repel rust. Great video as always and am always impressed with your careful production!
I have tried the heating and dip in oil as well on some engine bolts, but the bolts started to rust after first power wash 🙁 I think the degreaser I used removed the thin oil protection immediately. Do you have trick to keep them rust protected over time @Dennis.
@@kihestad Maybe you didn't heat up the bolts enough. Also, repeated heating and plunging in oil will build up the surface. When I have done it the oil turns the metal black and it doesn't come off easily unless you scratch the surface.
Instead of Zincing, you can Oil bath. Get the item hot and then place it in the oil bath, old motor oil works well.
This leads to a darker-coloured item, but the coating is quite durable, doesn't rust and covers all the parts.
I have tried it, looks cool but it's just not durable enough to prevent rust for outdoor use when exposed to weather and wear 😞
Interesting, could be the climate, I am in Aus and live by the coast have had ranges of -4ºc to 48ºc where I am but have travelled to others at -15ºc for a few nights.
Done parts on my car and motorbikes and haven't seen any rust on the parts that were coated.
Found it,
Delboy's Garage, Simple Skills, "Rust Proofing Bolts"
Zinc (and any other metal) plating does not get into interior holes/surfaces. This is true in commercial plating. Worked in my father's plating business for many years when school was out. The only way to plate inside holes is to have a fixture that holds the part and has an electrode held inside the hole. Zinc and cadmium plating are many times treated with a chromate or iridite compound solution by strictly immersion in hot solution. Take for example a radio chassis which looks like a kind of yellow rainbow color.
Aha, I was afraid of that 😔 That was valuable info 🙏
Looks like you need to add “passivation” to the zinc plating procedure… next season? Darned lists! You’ll get it all done (plus other jobs) but I’ll bet it’s a panic at the finish! I’m enjoying the videos, thanks. Les in UK 🇬🇧
I guess there is no way around. I hoped to be able to get away using common stuff from the hardware store, but it looks like you have to become a chemist expert to get this right 🫤 It looks it's going to be hectic to get the bike ready, so far the todo-list is just getting longer .... 😵💫
Haha, I see progress mate 👏🏻 well done and really interesting to see the plating and how it affected the parts. Really looking forward to see it when everything is done. You need to hurry up, the clock is ticking 🤣🎥 Great video once again. the level of details is just incredible
Yes, I know... you are already on the road again while I am still struggling 😬Progress is made though, new video out soon!
Very interesting result on the plating. great work and it's a shame your list is still growing longer, but that is the joy of working on an older bike! 😀
I am afraid the list might get even longer before it gets shorter 😔
Some electroplating setups have the "plating material" mixed with the electrolyte solution. This can help with plating on internal surfaces, but you have to make sure that the inside surfaces are bare and free of contaminants such as corrosion, dirt, or grease. Zinc cathodes are still used despite using a zinc sulfate solution in order to reduce rapid depletion of zinc ions. Your choice of zinc material is good as it's relatively pure.
Along with acetone and manual degreasing, you also have to "etch" the part in 25% by volume of hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) to get rid of any old plating as well as to give the metal a good surface for adhesion. After the etching, you rinse it in demineralized/distilled water immediately to avoid flash rusting. Then you could either:
1. Start the plating process, or
2. Add an additional cleaning step by soaking it in a detergent-based degreaser (don't use soap-based detergents like dishwashing detergent) for 15 minutes at 80-85 degrees Celsius, rinsing, soaking again in the muriatic solution for 30 seconds, and rinsing again before you proceed. (more consistent results but more tedious)
Plating solution comprises of :
1. Distilled water,
2. Epsom salt,
3. Zinc sulfate, and
4. White vinegar
and has a ratio of 45mL : 3g : 1g : 2mL. For your setup, you can roughly mix 100g Epsom salt, 33-34g Zinc sulfate, and 67mL of white vinegar in 1.5L of distilled water.
You can also add pure dextrose powder as a brightening agent (keeps the zinc crystals in alignment and prevents them from growing too large) into the solution. If you use 1.5L of water in the plating solution, add around 92g of dextrose. Results may vary, so feel free to experiment with this. The surface might look like it has a thick, dull light grey color, but a few minutes with a soft brass brush makes it shiny. You can continue to repeat the plating process of degreasing (avoid the muriatic acid in repeated plating), plating, and brass brushing around 2-3 times to enhance the finish.
Current can range from 12.4 mA/cm2 (0.124 mA/mm2) to 21.7 mA/cm2 (0.217 mA/mm2). The higher current is best for latter, wider and rounder surfaces for less time without consequences, but parts with sharp outside corners and narrow edges (like stamped sheet steel or sharp blocky parts) require the lower current and a long plating time.
This is done practically at room temperature (25 deg. C). If it's too cold, you can use an aquarium heater to heat it to 25C. An aquarium pump is also beneficial with inlet and outlet on opposite sides of the solution container to give proper circulation of the solution to minimize localized ion depletion near the part.
Plating time of 20-30 minutes is good (depending on current), but it is ideal to flip the part 180 degrees at the halfway point to cancel out any discrepancies of plating efficiency between the two zinc cathodes.
Very excited to see the end result of the Elefant! ❤
That was quite a comprehensive explanation 👍 Thanks for the info!
The production value has gone up a notch again on this one. Only a fire extinguisher is missing from the loft ;;)
Ugh, you are right - I don't really want to run downstairs when the fire starts do I 😶😶😶Will be bought!!!
@@kihestad it will add some color to that scene as well ;)
You're absolutely right 👍
I made my own zinc plating setup for a bike restoration recently and I had most of the same problems you did, it's interesting what you say about the hanging them from only one wire, I'll be trying that next time.
I didn't bother with the chromate conversion step though, I'd rather not have to deal with chromium in my workshop. Instead I just used some white scotchbrite to make the surface finish a little nicer. It won't last as long but I don't have to dispose of any chromium so I'm happy.
I have the same thoughts as you. I am afraid the process gets quite complex and time consuming with sourcing/buying the stuff online, mixing, storing and disposal of it. It's pretty unhealthy as well to my knowledge... Have you had any experience with the zinc-plated parts you have made, how long to they last before they starts to rust again?
It genuinely upsets me that your videos get low views because I want all the other smart people to answer your questions so you'll explain the solutions to me in the next video.
Great video as always.
Agree!!! 😅 I very often almost makes it works, I just need help to figure out that last thing 🤔😝
@@kihestad I also love how much you interact with comments. :) would electrodeless plating solve the uneven plating issue or are the chemicals required somehow too hazardous?
I am not really sure, I have tried to find the 'optimal' way to rust protect and get a nice looking result by searching online, but it's very many alternatives and it seems like they all have different strengths and weaknesses, and some just seems to be very complex and/or expensive for just fixing some very few parts 🥴
Understandable.
Fantastic video as always😀
Thanks 😊
Shiny plated surfaces are not shiny because of the plating. They are shiny because the underlying metal was buffed to a high shine before plating. Shiny chrome is done by plating with a pretty heavy first layer of copper, then buffing the copper to high shine. Then a fairly heavy coat of nickel plating is applied. Then a very thin coat of chromium is applied.
I think there are several techniques to get a rust proof and glossy result, I'll try to find a not too complex method
Good video as always 😀
Takker 😊
Great job , your list is getting longer 😂, Norway looks beautiful 👍
It's quite nice up here in the Nordics 😊 Yea, started with 36 tasks on the list. I have fixed at least 5 issues, but after adding the new problems I have found it's now 37 tasks on the list 🥴
I have a zinc plating kit (bought). The passivating step is just dipping the freshly plated items into a tank of passivate solution. Once you have the chemicals it is the easiest part of the process.
Aha, you don't even put electricity on the part?
@@kihestad , no, you just dip it for a while (how long you dip it affects the colour, etc). The zinc plating effectively just absorbs it
Ahh, that sounds very nice. What kit / where did you buy it?
@@kihestad I bought a kit from Gateros in the UK. They sell the passivate concentrate, but shipping prices outside the UK seem very high (sorry)
Thanks for the info, very useful 🙏👍
out of interest have you tried anodising? i don't know how well that prevents rust, if at all. loving this series. i am considering nickle plating the frame of my moto guzzi v50.
I am not familiar with anodising, is not that something typically done on boats? 🤔I will try nickel plating next time, it is the same process as zinc plating but nickel is harder and end result might look a bit more shiny.
@@kihestad i have seen quite a few YT videos of people anodising parts at home...it's more fiddly than plating but the results look great. i like nickel for the finish...a dull/black chrome.
Dang, it will be sad if you don't make it in time for the ride. I'm sure you'll be fine with skipping the trivial things the closer the deadline gets!
It does not look promising so far into the project, but crossing fingers 🤞
And the list grows... 🤣
Did you say which year you were going on this road trip?
I might have been stupid and said “this spring” 😒
200 Amps? That's a staggering amount of current, do your leads not get hot?
My TIG welder is actually 200A, for this one let's stick with milli-amps 😝
hold up.....was it not you who told me to wear a respirator while painting.....???
Oops 😬😬😬 ehh, that was for indoor spray painting 😝 I always use respirator indoors, at least when doing bigger paint jobs. Small touch ups jobs outdoors is allowed without 😇
Bra video og delig sykkel!! Hvordan kjøper du sånne kjemikaler?? Jeg vet at Gasolin pleide å selge sånne kits men snakket med dem og de droppet det pga ikke så mye interesse...
Jeg har faktisk sjekka hos Gosolin nå nylig fordi noen tipsa meg om det, men fant ingenting det - nå forstår jeg hvorfor ja. Dette er vel det ikke så mange som driver på med. Jeg sliter selv med å finne et sted hvor jeg får bestilt kjemikaler for å få et skinnende blankt eller svart sluttresultat, skulle gjerne visst. Hadde vært enklere om en hadde bodd i USA tror jeg 😝
Alt jeg har brukt her er kjøpt på Biltema, bortsett fra Epsom salt kjøpt på Sunkost. Strømforsyninga er kjøpt på nett da (Elfa Disrelect).