She's not only named and living, she's also a developed character who's relevant to the story xd But to be fair SA is much better about moms in general
So, I always thought I was pretty much okay, and that everyone felt the way I did and that I just wasn't mature enough to handle it. Then I read Rhythm of War, and I realized for the first time that I genuinely have depression. I was kind of shocked, since I'd always assumed that I didn't have mental issues. But upon fully realizing how similar what Kaladin went through was to what I go through, I've been able to take steps to massively improve my own mental health. So while I understand people's complaints about the book, it literally changed my life. So that's my take on Kaladin. He's a fictional character, but he's somehow managed to help protect me.
It's beautiful how fiction can help us deal with real life and our own struggles. I hope you're doing better. I believe in you! Life before Death. Strength before Weakness. Journey before Destination.
That's awesome to hear, and I'm glad you got help. I know you've commented on a ton of our videos, and it means a lot that you're doing better. Fiction can be so powerful. -Eric
I felt the same way. I knew I had depression, but somehow seeing him go through it really opened my eyes. This book really helped me pull out of the whole I was in. This book will always be my favorite!
“That’s what this is about, isn’t it?” Lirin said. “The surgery room, the supplies, that talk of the clinic. You’ve realized it. You _finally_ understand that I’ve been right. You’re going to become a surgeon like we always dreamed!” -Rhythm of War, Chapter 18 This was the moment I knew Kaladin+Lirin was not going to go well
A defense of Lirin here: he’s also suffering from trauma. He believes that his resistance against Roshone led to the death of Tien. When he sees Kaladin fighting and struggling he sees his own perceived failure that caused his son to die.
Kaladin: So, Szeth what's going on buddy? Szeth: I am speechless ... speechless of Shinovar I see the Tien scene as some sort of EMDR that should take place over several years. Kaladin's 5th ideal: I will teach you how to protect yourself.
Yeah Szeth is clearly the biggest plot hole. Like..."are we really just letting the guy famous for killing everyone and specifically the entire world's governments be our body guard?"
I fell in love with the first book because I fell in love with Kal's hero arc. It was weird that on the 2nd read I realized how much of the other characters I missed because I was just wanting more Bridge 4 stuff and Kal.
Kaladin will die but be invested, between Hoid taking a big interest in him, the story of Fleet and Zahels talk about investment the clues are there. I also think his storyline merges with Rysn to protect the Dawnshard through a relationship with Rysn. Who better to protect the Dawnshard then a loyal hero who is the epitome of Honor. He has already stepped back from the leadership role he is prime for the bodyguard protecting the love of his life and the Dawnshard role. Rysn's ship is also called the Wondersail, thats the first story Wit told Kal. Tara, Kals first real girlfriend dresses in Thaylen cloths and is an educated women so Rysn will remined him of Tara. Maybe she will bake him some Thaylen bread like Tara was going to before they broke up. I think the flute plays a big part in the investment or its a way to keep those around the flute hidden from the gods. I could also see Kaladin being one of the Heralds but still performing the same role as above.
when odium talks about kaladin becoming more dangerous in the future maybe it's because a windrunner that has sworn the 5th idel is so connected to honor that he could un splinter honor with the help of a bondsmith dalinar
I think kaladon thought he deserved the brands for tiens death, so accepting that it isn't his fault could have lead to his perception of himself changing
Kaladin's depression feels very authentic to my experience and I'm happy Brandon didn't downplay it any. It lets everyone else see into our lives a bit. However I related so much I found it almost touched too close to home and i had to take breaks in his parts.
Agreed. As someone who did attempt once, that shit doesn't go away and I appreciated Kaladin's portrayal. Especially because although he may or may not be good at the end but...he jumped. Kaladin may not be great at the end but hopefully he doesn't choose that path again.
Kaladin and Szeth being travel buddies to Shinovar and having proper interaction for the first time in the series it's gonna be so AWESOME (I wouldn't mind if Lift also joined, I LOVE when we get character interactions that we have not seen before and we still haven't seen a lot of Kal-Lift but right now my focus is in Kal-Szeth)
2 comments. I don't want Kaladin to die, because then Syl would be really sad, and that would break my heart. Second, if we're going to kill a herald, it's gotta be Ash. Not Taln. Literally anyone but Taln
@@e22ddie46 the whole reason Moash was trying to get Kaladin to kill himself was as a twisted “end his suffering” idea. Kind of like how someone would decide to have their dog put down if they were terminally ill. Since Kaladin was able to put down part of his burden, will Moash still want him to kill himself? Seems unlikely. Will it cause Moash to face his own suffering? Also seems unlikely. Will he live in denial?
Had to wait a bit to watch this episode. My own depression has been on the rise again recently, and I wasn't in the best headspace to listen to an in depth conversation about a character who suffers from severe depression. But I've listened now, and this was a great episode. Really enjoyed everyone's takes on Kal, but in particular, Eric's musings on how Kaladin's experience echo his own resonated with me. The Dog and the Dragon is my favorite chapter of fiction Brandon has ever written, and I have Wit's "You will be warm again" monologue saved on my phone and reread it when I'm in a particularly bad state. It's not an exageration to say it has saved my life more than once. On a much lighter note: Kaladin-Adolin-Shallan is the only correct ship, and I will fight anyone who disagrees.
Thanks for this episode and for talking so openly about mental health struggles. I related a bit too much with Kaladin in RoW and finally admitting to myself that I have depression and need help. I'm also really glad that there's no magical solution and Kaladin is suddenly "healed" and completely fine for the rest of his life. But like Eric, I wish there was a magic solution in our world :D Lots of love to you all!
I need more Kaladin, more Lunamor, more The Lopen and more Bridge 4 in general. I hope Brandon doesn't push Kaladin into the background like some folks want.
First of many comments to this video for me lol, just in context of the first 20-30min. For the series in general, Kaladin is a very comfortable and enjoyable character for me because he does all this cool stuff, has a dope hero arc, and is generally likeable for me. For this one book, I absolutely loved his character for one reason: how his depression is depicted was so painfully relatable for me. The majority of how his depression is depicted in this book is how I have experienced for the majority of my life and this was the first time I've ever had to put a book down for a few hours or days before I could keep reading because it was so emotionally raw for me; I've now read or listened to the book 19 times and while it no longer hits me as hard, there are still many parts of his arc in this book that make me shake or bawl my eyes out. The dog and the dragon chapter is probably my favourite chapter outside of the Navanni chapters and Brandon did a wonderful thing there: he made me laugh so hard I cried with Design's joke about her Cryptic name number being real rather than imaginary, and is also irrational, and then made me bawl my eyes out immediately after with showing Kaladin the wonder of dogs and showing the depth of Kaladin's hopelessness. As someone with a complex-PTSD diagnosis and major depressive dissorder, this book's Kaladin was the most relatable character in the series, excepting Navanni's imposter syndrom issues which is also very common to depressed individuals. All that being said, what you guys said about this book not necessarily being a "good thing for some depressed people to read right now," I totally understand. While I enjoyed reading it, the first time really was part of triggering a major depressive episode for me, so I feel like the book should have a warning/disclaimer at the beginning for depressed people 🤣😭😅.
I loved how Adolin took care of Kaladin (and Shallan too) When I had my hardest struggles with depression, having someone who cares, loves, and offers support, encouragement, and opportunities to take small steps would have been a big help. I think so many people are too hard on Lirin. He's not a perfect father, but he's a good person and tries his best, as he knows how. It's a lot easier to be a backseat parent :)
I see a lot of parallels between Kelsier's cult of personality and the people of Urithiru rallying around Kaladin. He's a survivor and as dense as the writing around his depression/obstacles can be, you can't help but feel the splendor and joy inside of you when he manages to take a meaningful step forward in both his own life and the story.
Ayyy suicidal ideation gang represent! Thank you for sharing your experience with us Eric. Your willingness to open yourself up to and expose that vulnerability to us on camera was deeply touching and I for one really appreciated it. As a fellow depressed person who's depression manifests in suicidal ideation, I hope your struggles have grown easier over the years and that your recovery and growth will continue to progress allowing you to stay with us for many years to come.
It was interesting to hear how, for you guys, the plot necessity of taking Kaladin off the front lines undermined the importance of that decision for his character. Personally, because Brandon has said multiple times that he writes for character first and plot second, I always assumed that Brandon first realized that taking Kaladin off the front lines would be good for his character, and only after that did he figure out how to work in Kaladin into the plot, which just so happened to be the defense of the tower. The first moment Brandon envisioned for this book was Kaladin speaking the Fourth Ideal (presumably with help from Dalinar though I'm not sure if that part was in the original conception), which just goes to show that character moments come first. Even if Brandon didn't come up with his ideas in this order, this is still how I choose to read it; Kaladin needs to be off the front lines for his own reasons, which then has the unintended consequence of putting him in the right place.
Normally I read the book then listen to the audio book. For Rhythm of War, I had to do the opposite. Listening to someone speak rather than directly reading put an extra layer between the narrative and myself. I've gone back and read it twice, but I'm not sure I could have if the audio book didn't exist to get me through the first time. Oddly, the video first part of the video hurt a bit. I wasn't in the best state when I started it, and hearing people say how they've never dealt with depression just caused a mini-spiral with me wondering what it's like to not be broken. I know that wasn't the intention, but, like I said, I had started off in a bad mental state, and considering it's a video about a character suffering from depression and trauma, I should've waited to watch under I was in a better mindset.
Hey there. I'm sorry to hear that. I definitely know how that feels. But I just want you to know that this isn't your fault, and things are going to be okay, eventually. You have value and you matter. It's so hard when you're in it, and man, I know it. But it does eventually get better (with proper help). Medication always helped me more than therapy though, I must say. -Eric
quick reminder that with some space-time warping shenanigans Brandon can easily stretch the final duel to take place over the equivalent of a few months depending on how much investiture a shard contains and how much that warps time
Well there is the whole “son of tanavast” bit which is probably immensely important The problem with kaladin is that he is so powerful now, like kaladin is the most dangerous single fighter in the cosmere people can dispute it all they want but rn vin is far weaker and kaladin isn’t even done. Like the dudes fighting immortal beings and winning handedly he’s taken on 12 fused and an unmade and won and is apparently one of the best radiant since their inception since nobody else best the pursuer twice, how do you backseat that? Like nobody can stand against him in combat except maybe like fused dalinar I do think y’all maybe need to do one unexplained abilities especially kaladins, he has lots of weird things going on with im that haven’t been explained and would make good discussion The issue I think with say syl becoming completely independent for them to have a relationship is like if the bond is still there than suddenly kaladin is totally dependent on her, I feel like it’s the sam peeler differential issue but to the other side then(I also hate this ship so I am biased) Im actually a fan of dalinar becoming a fused and kaladin following h8m around the cosmere (I also think odium controls the Set from mistborn
Psychiatrist Kaladin is a bigger threat because his eventual endpoint, which would tie a bunch of stuff together, is to cure immortality insanity in the heralds through a mix of magic and mentality. Maybe using the same power of bondsmith connection that saved him via honorblade? Still calling that "El" is a piece of the final herald and Odium is using the insanity of the heralds to hide knowledge of how he circumvented the oathpact in Taln's head. Also Herald Kaladin will go to Braize to help treat the souls of the Fused, as a cognitive realm therapist imo.
I posted this up on the forums but are Kaladin's Windspren always the same ones? For examples, at the Battle for Narak or when he parts the highstorm winds in Oathbringer. Are these the same Windspren that form his Shardplate? Consensus was the truth is unknown but someone has to get a WoB on this soon please :)
Hmm, that's a good question. My guess would be that they're the same, because he had windspren following him in Shadesmar at points as well (despite them being super rare there), and because it's Connection-y bond-y shenanigans, and so intuitively that's what makes the most sense to me, but that's 100% my opinion and you're right, we don't know.
It was from Navani's point of view when they met Kaladin and Lirin and it's one of my favorite scenes when she sees his eyes and realizes they have "the same soul". If Lirin got a spren I hope it'd be an Ashspren and he'd have to learn how to use dustbringer powers for his surgery and healing and go on some sort of arc where their's a time and a place for everything, even violence.
With the comment about Syl not knowing the words for the Fourth Ideal, versus her knowing the earlier Oaths, is it possible that her previous Knight never reached the Fourth Ideal? It could be the case that Syl doesn't know the words because she hadn't heard them before
I think the implication was that her growing memories and the temporary weaking of their bond due to distance and their emotions at the time caused her progress towards it to regress. I could be wrong but i believe that she knew the words at the end of oathbringer as she was encouraging him them
“There he is! Kaladin! The saddddddest piece of garbage in the cosmos!! Long live the big, bad, doodoo daddy!” -Kaladin Stormblessed (ft. in Rick n Morty, Season 4)
Compromise: Kaladin &Ishar fight-therapy. Imagine a normal therapy session just instead of a couch and notepad we have honorblade on sylblade dynamic action.
I’ve been relistening to old sharcasts in anticipation of SA5 and this episode along with the Moash one has got to be up there as the best! You guys just really nail the character analysis. Can’t wait for the SA5 predictions :)
If we don't get leshwi kaladin babies in back half I'm going to actually be slightly upset. I've wanted them together since the first fight. She might become unfuzed and then that solves the problem of immortality edit: IF SHE GIVES UP HER FUZED POWERS AND THEN BONDS HER HONOR SPREN FRIEND I WOULD BE EVEN MORE HAPPY BRANDON PLEASE GIVE ME THIS!
Eric’s been a bit too busy unfortunately but we have the brownie mix in the cupboard!! Considering I feel insanely busy at the moment and I’m not even working currently, I have a lot of sympathy for Eric doing basically as much as me and then working full time on top of that. But I’ll get them eventually and that day will be glorioussssssssssssss - Jessie
I also want to say as someone who had an abusive parent and grew up gay Those scenes with Lirin... Are not excusable. "You are not my son"? "You are dead to me"? That is not something that can be passed over so easily and the book lets him off the hook way too quickly and was not addressed in a way that didn't require Hesina, the woman character, to do the emotional labor to make her husband not a dirtbag.
I kinda feel like Windrunner 5th oath should be something along the lines of “I can kill to protect” I just think it would be a cool narrative callback and like we got the resolution to Lirin and Kaladin’s conflicting ideals
I had about half a dozen stop-starts as a result of how quickly Kaladin's void hits him in the book. It took me WAAAY longer to finish it than planned. It was rough, seering and painful. This kinda made his clarity particularly triumphant and cathartic...
I would argue that Lirin is a perfect fit for the windrunners. "I will protect those who i hate", "i accept there are those who i cannot protect". Seperate the windrunners from the military organization its become and look at the oaths: Lirin fits the oaths perfectly. I can see him becoming a windrunner and still not agreeing with killing. Knights radiant werent all soldiers.
Yay! I’m glad you liked my crazy clues! I wrote that when I read the white sand prose about ten months ago. Not a bat turnaround considering the backlog lol my favorite clue was the canonically female
Oh ho hooooo I’ve got a big drive in a few weeks and I’m so excited to listen to this and the three hour ba ado mishram podcast AND relisten to the kelsier one cus I had to skip ton cus I hadn’t read era two so yessss thank you
Book 5 Kaladin = 10 days from retirement :) Count me in as one of the readers who don't love Kaladin's "Oath Harder, Fighter Harder, Save the day" endings we've gotten for most of the Stormlight books. I get that he's definitely THE main character (i.e. even though Shallan was the POV in book 2, and Navani in book 4, they were both thoroughly outshined by Kaladin in terms of the way the story built-up and crafted their climax). The biggest issue I have is the HOW repetitive the "Oath Harder, Fight Harder" is to read. If you look at another series with repetitive climaxes - i.e. The Dresden Files for example - Harry is always saving the day and solving the crime - but the fact that each crime solved is a different mystery makes the repetition work. Whereas reading about Kaladin beating up is far less stimulating. To the point where in RoW Brandon had to create a book specific rival with limited story/character contribution just for Kaladin to beat up.
For me it worked fine for the first two books but Amaram and the Pursuer are such nonentities that it feels like a waste of time to read those battles. I wonder if having Kaladin mentoring a direct apprentice character would've helped those scenes (say Kaladin and Lift running around the tower together fighting a Lift centric opponent)
Fucking love me some Criminal Minds! Hell yeah. Loved that coming up. Kaladin is probably in my top 5 fictional characters of all time. Together with Dr Spencer Reid 😁
I loved all the kal fights in writhim of rar On another note: PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK 5 LIKE ITS CONFIRMED TO ONLY HAPPEN IN 10 DAYS! there is no way they won't deal with the aftermath in this book. The timeline can still be "tricky" if the battle ends in part 3
Rhythm of War is my favorite Cosmere book at this moment in time at least. And that is simply because of Kaladin and how much I resonated with him, i have never had a character that I resonated with so much as I do with Kaladin, and so those darkest scenes helped me realize that it is normal to have those, but at the end of the day I just gotta keep going because as hoid put it in my favorite story because I just I dunno felt it, a dog is always gonna fail when it tries to be a dragon or the other thing, ‘You will be warm again’.
I've been listening to the podcasts for a while now and really enjoy listening to y'all's thoughts on the books! Also It'd be cool if you guys could add some of your book recommendations during the video to the info section.
if anyone on roshar was gone do what sazed did on scadrial and combine 2 shards its kalladin he fits both honor and odium so well he could probably wield both just puting that out there
talking about kaladin having a great noble sacrifice, the only thing that stands out to me as a reason it won't happen, is because that was basically the completion of Vin's character arc, and brandon tries to avoid that kind of repeats
Hey do I always figured that when kaladin was on the verge of turning to odium his eyes were glowing yellow or what ever color cause of warlight like him holding lots of storm light and then also being very attuned to honor and then also him being fed presumingly void light from odium trying to corrupt him and with kaladin being fairly emotional I just assumed he was welding warlight
I went through the same stuff Kaladin did, going through withdrawals with untreated bipolar 2 disorder. It felt like actual hell. Physically and emotionally lol. But yea, suicide was never an option for me. That's the big difference. Still know the feeling of just wanting it to end. And I still really enjoyed reading it. But I figured out the one step after another, and Im fairly certain Kaladin will reach tht point too. Hopefully soon lol. Shouldn't have to take 9 years for him.
I think kal is more ptsd than maniac depressed. Small discrepancy but if it doesn’t feel genuine in some way that could be why. His issues stem from the trauma of his brother’s and other deaths and working through that trauma could be beneficial where depression is more of a chemical imbalance and there’s stuff that mitigates it generally it’s something you live with.
I will say an Adolin and Maya episode is on the list, but the rest of 2021 is pretty tightly scheduled, so it'll still be a while. But I do want to get to it. It just might be a mid 2022 one. -Eric
![Eminem - Temporary (feat. Skylar Grey) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZaK9Wi5ho0o/mqdefault.jpg)
With Kaladin, Brandon gives us something that is so rare in the cosmere: A named, living mom!
Navani 👀
Kaladin is Superman! The only one with a normal living mom xD
Also a mom that loves him
She's not only named and living, she's also a developed character who's relevant to the story xd But to be fair SA is much better about moms in general
Isn't Navani a mom :)
So, I always thought I was pretty much okay, and that everyone felt the way I did and that I just wasn't mature enough to handle it. Then I read Rhythm of War, and I realized for the first time that I genuinely have depression. I was kind of shocked, since I'd always assumed that I didn't have mental issues. But upon fully realizing how similar what Kaladin went through was to what I go through, I've been able to take steps to massively improve my own mental health. So while I understand people's complaints about the book, it literally changed my life. So that's my take on Kaladin. He's a fictional character, but he's somehow managed to help protect me.
It's beautiful how fiction can help us deal with real life and our own struggles. I hope you're doing better. I believe in you! Life before Death. Strength before Weakness. Journey before Destination.
That's awesome to hear, and I'm glad you got help. I know you've commented on a ton of our videos, and it means a lot that you're doing better. Fiction can be so powerful. -Eric
I felt the same way. I knew I had depression, but somehow seeing him go through it really opened my eyes. This book really helped me pull out of the whole I was in. This book will always be my favorite!
“That’s what this is about, isn’t it?” Lirin said. “The surgery room, the supplies, that talk of the clinic. You’ve realized it. You _finally_ understand that I’ve been right. You’re going to become a surgeon like we always dreamed!”
-Rhythm of War, Chapter 18
This was the moment I knew Kaladin+Lirin was not going to go well
A defense of Lirin here: he’s also suffering from trauma. He believes that his resistance against Roshone led to the death of Tien. When he sees Kaladin fighting and struggling he sees his own perceived failure that caused his son to die.
Kal: do you ever want to talk about your emotions szeth?
Szeth:No
Lift: I do!
Kal: I know Lift
Lift: I'm sad
Kal: I know
Kaladin: So, Szeth what's going on buddy?
Szeth: I am speechless ... speechless of Shinovar
I see the Tien scene as some sort of EMDR that should take place over several years.
Kaladin's 5th ideal: I will teach you how to protect yourself.
Yeah Szeth is clearly the biggest plot hole. Like..."are we really just letting the guy famous for killing everyone and specifically the entire world's governments be our body guard?"
2:23:21 "This is the biggest ending that Brandon's ever written".
A Memory of Light would like a word.
I fell in love with the first book because I fell in love with Kal's hero arc. It was weird that on the 2nd read I realized how much of the other characters I missed because I was just wanting more Bridge 4 stuff and Kal.
Book 5 opens with Wit hyperventilating about the ending of book 4.
Literally 😅
Kaladin will die but be invested, between Hoid taking a big interest in him, the story of Fleet and Zahels talk about investment the clues are there. I also think his storyline merges with Rysn to protect the Dawnshard through a relationship with Rysn. Who better to protect the Dawnshard then a loyal hero who is the epitome of Honor. He has already stepped back from the leadership role he is prime for the bodyguard protecting the love of his life and the Dawnshard role. Rysn's ship is also called the Wondersail, thats the first story Wit told Kal. Tara, Kals first real girlfriend dresses in Thaylen cloths and is an educated women so Rysn will remined him of Tara. Maybe she will bake him some Thaylen bread like Tara was going to before they broke up. I think the flute plays a big part in the investment or its a way to keep those around the flute hidden from the gods. I could also see Kaladin being one of the Heralds but still performing the same role as above.
Okay this is the best Kaladin ship
This is the first Kaladin ship that I actually like
Eric nailed this episode. Everyone was good, but Eric represented my experience so perfectly. Thank you. It was a surprise and really touching.
Thanks for the kind words. I could blab about it forever, but had to keep it snappy. I hope you are doing well with your own struggles. -Eric
I appreciate your experience. I struggle myself. Thank you for talking about it.
Kaladin’s yellow eyes were because he became a Sith Lord for a moment.
I couldn't have clicked this long heralded episode faster!
Thumbs up for "heralded" :)
when odium talks about kaladin becoming more dangerous in the future maybe it's because a windrunner that has sworn the 5th idel is so connected to honor that he could un splinter honor with the help of a bondsmith dalinar
Maybe...or since the death of jezia there is a vaccum in the oathpact hence the best candidate will be "sucked"into the position...who else but kal
Or take up honor himself
I think kaladon thought he deserved the brands for tiens death, so accepting that it isn't his fault could have lead to his perception of himself changing
The rumored Kaladin episode does exist!
Finally! Silly Brandon with all his talking making us do WoB episodes instead. -Eric
Kaladin's depression feels very authentic to my experience and I'm happy Brandon didn't downplay it any. It lets everyone else see into our lives a bit. However I related so much I found it almost touched too close to home and i had to take breaks in his parts.
Agreed. As someone who did attempt once, that shit doesn't go away and I appreciated Kaladin's portrayal.
Especially because although he may or may not be good at the end but...he jumped. Kaladin may not be great at the end but hopefully he doesn't choose that path again.
Kaladin and Szeth being travel buddies to Shinovar and having proper interaction for the first time in the series it's gonna be so AWESOME (I wouldn't mind if Lift also joined, I LOVE when we get character interactions that we have not seen before and we still haven't seen a lot of Kal-Lift but right now my focus is in Kal-Szeth)
2 comments.
I don't want Kaladin to die, because then Syl would be really sad, and that would break my heart.
Second, if we're going to kill a herald, it's gotta be Ash. Not Taln. Literally anyone but Taln
What a very Steeldancer thing to say :P Also, if Kaladin dies then kill Syl as well, can’t be sad if you’re dead 😈 - Jessie
I agree with you!! Kal must live
What will Moash’s reaction be when he learns that Kaladin was able to accept the deaths of those he’s loved?
"alright so we just kill someone else. Maybe his mom and dad this time." And then Kaladin goes superseaon and hits level five.
@@e22ddie46 the whole reason Moash was trying to get Kaladin to kill himself was as a twisted “end his suffering” idea. Kind of like how someone would decide to have their dog put down if they were terminally ill. Since Kaladin was able to put down part of his burden, will Moash still want him to kill himself? Seems unlikely. Will it cause Moash to face his own suffering? Also seems unlikely. Will he live in denial?
@@e22ddie46 hes blind though now. I think his fighting days are over
Had to wait a bit to watch this episode. My own depression has been on the rise again recently, and I wasn't in the best headspace to listen to an in depth conversation about a character who suffers from severe depression. But I've listened now, and this was a great episode. Really enjoyed everyone's takes on Kal, but in particular, Eric's musings on how Kaladin's experience echo his own resonated with me.
The Dog and the Dragon is my favorite chapter of fiction Brandon has ever written, and I have Wit's "You will be warm again" monologue saved on my phone and reread it when I'm in a particularly bad state. It's not an exageration to say it has saved my life more than once.
On a much lighter note: Kaladin-Adolin-Shallan is the only correct ship, and I will fight anyone who disagrees.
I really need to see old man Stoneward combat medic Lirin in the back half
Thanks for this episode and for talking so openly about mental health struggles. I related a bit too much with Kaladin in RoW and finally admitting to myself that I have depression and need help. I'm also really glad that there's no magical solution and Kaladin is suddenly "healed" and completely fine for the rest of his life. But like Eric, I wish there was a magic solution in our world :D Lots of love to you all!
Nearly 3 hours of talking about sci-fi/fantasy's greatest sad man... I'm in!
“I took my oaths to the final level, and maybe I’m not great.”
You really hit the Nale on the head with that one.
Kaladin's 5th oath will be something along the lines of, "I know what is right, for honor is in my heart"
I need more Kaladin, more Lunamor, more The Lopen and more Bridge 4 in general. I hope Brandon doesn't push Kaladin into the background like some folks want.
I never thought I'd see the day Kal gets an episode
First of many comments to this video for me lol, just in context of the first 20-30min.
For the series in general, Kaladin is a very comfortable and enjoyable character for me because he does all this cool stuff, has a dope hero arc, and is generally likeable for me. For this one book, I absolutely loved his character for one reason: how his depression is depicted was so painfully relatable for me. The majority of how his depression is depicted in this book is how I have experienced for the majority of my life and this was the first time I've ever had to put a book down for a few hours or days before I could keep reading because it was so emotionally raw for me; I've now read or listened to the book 19 times and while it no longer hits me as hard, there are still many parts of his arc in this book that make me shake or bawl my eyes out. The dog and the dragon chapter is probably my favourite chapter outside of the Navanni chapters and Brandon did a wonderful thing there: he made me laugh so hard I cried with Design's joke about her Cryptic name number being real rather than imaginary, and is also irrational, and then made me bawl my eyes out immediately after with showing Kaladin the wonder of dogs and showing the depth of Kaladin's hopelessness. As someone with a complex-PTSD diagnosis and major depressive dissorder, this book's Kaladin was the most relatable character in the series, excepting Navanni's imposter syndrom issues which is also very common to depressed individuals.
All that being said, what you guys said about this book not necessarily being a "good thing for some depressed people to read right now," I totally understand. While I enjoyed reading it, the first time really was part of triggering a major depressive episode for me, so I feel like the book should have a warning/disclaimer at the beginning for depressed people 🤣😭😅.
I loved how Adolin took care of Kaladin (and Shallan too) When I had my hardest struggles with depression, having someone who cares, loves, and offers support, encouragement, and opportunities to take small steps would have been a big help.
I think so many people are too hard on Lirin. He's not a perfect father, but he's a good person and tries his best, as he knows how. It's a lot easier to be a backseat parent :)
I wish to one day write a book series so good it manages to have a fandom as dedicated as this
I see a lot of parallels between Kelsier's cult of personality and the people of Urithiru rallying around Kaladin. He's a survivor and as dense as the writing around his depression/obstacles can be, you can't help but feel the splendor and joy inside of you when he manages to take a meaningful step forward in both his own life and the story.
Ayyy suicidal ideation gang represent!
Thank you for sharing your experience with us Eric. Your willingness to open yourself up to and expose that vulnerability to us on camera was deeply touching and I for one really appreciated it. As a fellow depressed person who's depression manifests in suicidal ideation, I hope your struggles have grown easier over the years and that your recovery and growth will continue to progress allowing you to stay with us for many years to come.
Every book has its main character and the first 5 book arc also has 1 main character - Kaladin
It was interesting to hear how, for you guys, the plot necessity of taking Kaladin off the front lines undermined the importance of that decision for his character. Personally, because Brandon has said multiple times that he writes for character first and plot second, I always assumed that Brandon first realized that taking Kaladin off the front lines would be good for his character, and only after that did he figure out how to work in Kaladin into the plot, which just so happened to be the defense of the tower. The first moment Brandon envisioned for this book was Kaladin speaking the Fourth Ideal (presumably with help from Dalinar though I'm not sure if that part was in the original conception), which just goes to show that character moments come first. Even if Brandon didn't come up with his ideas in this order, this is still how I choose to read it; Kaladin needs to be off the front lines for his own reasons, which then has the unintended consequence of putting him in the right place.
Normally I read the book then listen to the audio book. For Rhythm of War, I had to do the opposite. Listening to someone speak rather than directly reading put an extra layer between the narrative and myself. I've gone back and read it twice, but I'm not sure I could have if the audio book didn't exist to get me through the first time.
Oddly, the video first part of the video hurt a bit. I wasn't in the best state when I started it, and hearing people say how they've never dealt with depression just caused a mini-spiral with me wondering what it's like to not be broken.
I know that wasn't the intention, but, like I said, I had started off in a bad mental state, and considering it's a video about a character suffering from depression and trauma, I should've waited to watch under I was in a better mindset.
Hey there. I'm sorry to hear that. I definitely know how that feels. But I just want you to know that this isn't your fault, and things are going to be okay, eventually. You have value and you matter. It's so hard when you're in it, and man, I know it. But it does eventually get better (with proper help). Medication always helped me more than therapy though, I must say. -Eric
I came to RUclips today to listen to music. This is so much better! Thanks to all of you for the awesome content!
quick reminder that with some space-time warping shenanigans Brandon can easily stretch the final duel to take place over the equivalent of a few months depending on how much investiture a shard contains and how much that warps time
Well there is the whole “son of tanavast” bit which is probably immensely important
The problem with kaladin is that he is so powerful now, like kaladin is the most dangerous single fighter in the cosmere people can dispute it all they want but rn vin is far weaker and kaladin isn’t even done. Like the dudes fighting immortal beings and winning handedly he’s taken on 12 fused and an unmade and won and is apparently one of the best radiant since their inception since nobody else best the pursuer twice, how do you backseat that? Like nobody can stand against him in combat except maybe like fused dalinar
I do think y’all maybe need to do one unexplained abilities especially kaladins, he has lots of weird things going on with im that haven’t been explained and would make good discussion
The issue I think with say syl becoming completely independent for them to have a relationship is like if the bond is still there than suddenly kaladin is totally dependent on her, I feel like it’s the sam peeler differential issue but to the other side then(I also hate this ship so I am biased)
Im actually a fan of dalinar becoming a fused and kaladin following h8m around the cosmere (I also think odium controls the Set from mistborn
Psychiatrist Kaladin is a bigger threat because his eventual endpoint, which would tie a bunch of stuff together, is to cure immortality insanity in the heralds through a mix of magic and mentality. Maybe using the same power of bondsmith connection that saved him via honorblade?
Still calling that "El" is a piece of the final herald and Odium is using the insanity of the heralds to hide knowledge of how he circumvented the oathpact in Taln's head.
Also Herald Kaladin will go to Braize to help treat the souls of the Fused, as a cognitive realm therapist imo.
Theory: Kaladin will ascend, but not to Honor’s Shard, he will claim the shard of Healing.
I posted this up on the forums but are Kaladin's Windspren always the same ones? For examples, at the Battle for Narak or when he parts the highstorm winds in Oathbringer. Are these the same Windspren that form his Shardplate? Consensus was the truth is unknown but someone has to get a WoB on this soon please :)
An interesting question
@@VoidLantadd even more interesting, if they are the same are they the same for every radiant?
Hmm, that's a good question. My guess would be that they're the same, because he had windspren following him in Shadesmar at points as well (despite them being super rare there), and because it's Connection-y bond-y shenanigans, and so intuitively that's what makes the most sense to me, but that's 100% my opinion and you're right, we don't know.
It was from Navani's point of view when they met Kaladin and Lirin and it's one of my favorite scenes when she sees his eyes and realizes they have "the same soul". If Lirin got a spren I hope it'd be an Ashspren and he'd have to learn how to use dustbringer powers for his surgery and healing and go on some sort of arc where their's a time and a place for everything, even violence.
We lift the bridge together.
With the comment about Syl not knowing the words for the Fourth Ideal, versus her knowing the earlier Oaths, is it possible that her previous Knight never reached the Fourth Ideal? It could be the case that Syl doesn't know the words because she hadn't heard them before
I think the implication was that her growing memories and the temporary weaking of their bond due to distance and their emotions at the time caused her progress towards it to regress. I could be wrong but i believe that she knew the words at the end of oathbringer as she was encouraging him them
I see. This is going to be an emotional episode.
“There he is! Kaladin! The saddddddest piece of garbage in the cosmos!! Long live the big, bad, doodoo daddy!”
-Kaladin Stormblessed (ft. in Rick n Morty, Season 4)
Lirin would stoneshape a battlefield hospital out of the ground, Rock beds and all. Also ShardScalpel WHEN?!?!
Compromise: Kaladin &Ishar fight-therapy. Imagine a normal therapy session just instead of a couch and notepad we have honorblade on sylblade dynamic action.
I’ve been relistening to old sharcasts in anticipation of SA5 and this episode along with the Moash one has got to be up there as the best! You guys just really nail the character analysis.
Can’t wait for the SA5 predictions :)
'The criticism of "Oh, yet another Kaladin ideal" is such a weak mindset' changed my mind
A like on the video before I even start watching it. Just for the topic.
Kaladin will become Obi-Wan. He's the Survivor.
was just about to search for some more 17th Shard content but you popped up on my recommended, awesome! :D
If we don't get leshwi kaladin babies in back half I'm going to actually be slightly upset. I've wanted them together since the first fight.
She might become unfuzed and then that solves the problem of immortality
edit: IF SHE GIVES UP HER FUZED POWERS AND THEN BONDS HER HONOR SPREN FRIEND I WOULD BE EVEN MORE HAPPY BRANDON PLEASE GIVE ME THIS!
Still listening to the podcast, but since it was not mentioned in the introduction, I need to know if Jessie got her muffins!
Eric’s been a bit too busy unfortunately but we have the brownie mix in the cupboard!! Considering I feel insanely busy at the moment and I’m not even working currently, I have a lot of sympathy for Eric doing basically as much as me and then working full time on top of that. But I’ll get them eventually and that day will be glorioussssssssssssss - Jessie
@@17thShard The saga continues! I'll continue to ask whenever I remember!
I also want to say as someone who had an abusive parent and grew up gay
Those scenes with Lirin... Are not excusable. "You are not my son"? "You are dead to me"?
That is not something that can be passed over so easily and the book lets him off the hook way too quickly and was not addressed in a way that didn't require Hesina, the woman character, to do the emotional labor to make her husband not a dirtbag.
I kinda feel like Windrunner 5th oath should be something along the lines of “I can kill to protect” I just think it would be a cool narrative callback and like we got the resolution to Lirin and Kaladin’s conflicting ideals
What a pleasant surprise was expecting a midnight uk release. perfect time for evening walk
I had about half a dozen stop-starts as a result of how quickly Kaladin's void hits him in the book. It took me WAAAY longer to finish it than planned. It was rough, seering and painful. This kinda made his clarity particularly triumphant and cathartic...
I thought the loss of the shash brand was because he was no longer a slave to his grief.
I would argue that Lirin is a perfect fit for the windrunners. "I will protect those who i hate", "i accept there are those who i cannot protect". Seperate the windrunners from the military organization its become and look at the oaths: Lirin fits the oaths perfectly. I can see him becoming a windrunner and still not agreeing with killing. Knights radiant werent all soldiers.
and the biggest question for kalidin is why the stromfather calls him (the son of tanavast)
I wish I had a friend like Adolin
Yay! I’m glad you liked my crazy clues! I wrote that when I read the white sand prose about ten months ago. Not a bat turnaround considering the backlog lol my favorite clue was the canonically female
Oh ho hooooo I’ve got a big drive in a few weeks and I’m so excited to listen to this and the three hour ba ado mishram podcast AND relisten to the kelsier one cus I had to skip ton cus I hadn’t read era two so yessss thank you
Book 5 Kaladin = 10 days from retirement :)
Count me in as one of the readers who don't love Kaladin's "Oath Harder, Fighter Harder, Save the day" endings we've gotten for most of the Stormlight books. I get that he's definitely THE main character (i.e. even though Shallan was the POV in book 2, and Navani in book 4, they were both thoroughly outshined by Kaladin in terms of the way the story built-up and crafted their climax).
The biggest issue I have is the HOW repetitive the "Oath Harder, Fight Harder" is to read. If you look at another series with repetitive climaxes - i.e. The Dresden Files for example - Harry is always saving the day and solving the crime - but the fact that each crime solved is a different mystery makes the repetition work. Whereas reading about Kaladin beating up is far less stimulating. To the point where in RoW Brandon had to create a book specific rival with limited story/character contribution just for Kaladin to beat up.
For me it worked fine for the first two books but Amaram and the Pursuer are such nonentities that it feels like a waste of time to read those battles. I wonder if having Kaladin mentoring a direct apprentice character would've helped those scenes (say Kaladin and Lift running around the tower together fighting a Lift centric opponent)
I think it is very possible the ten days of the 5th book ends at the first or second part.
Fucking love me some Criminal Minds! Hell yeah. Loved that coming up. Kaladin is probably in my top 5 fictional characters of all time. Together with Dr Spencer Reid 😁
Heck yeah 🙌 - Jessie
I loved all the kal fights in writhim of rar
On another note: PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK 5 LIKE ITS CONFIRMED TO ONLY HAPPEN IN 10 DAYS! there is no way they won't deal with the aftermath in this book. The timeline can still be "tricky" if the battle ends in part 3
Sure, but I don't think it'll happen so early. But I do think it could be part four, like Way of Kings, with part five being a big epilogue.
Rhythm of War is my favorite Cosmere book at this moment in time at least. And that is simply because of Kaladin and how much I resonated with him, i have never had a character that I resonated with so much as I do with Kaladin, and so those darkest scenes helped me realize that it is normal to have those, but at the end of the day I just gotta keep going because as hoid put it in my favorite story because I just I dunno felt it, a dog is always gonna fail when it tries to be a dragon or the other thing, ‘You will be warm again’.
Gurl I feel you. Dust jackets are TACKY.
I've been listening to the podcasts for a while now and really enjoy listening to y'all's thoughts on the books!
Also It'd be cool if you guys could add some of your book recommendations during the video to the info section.
if anyone on roshar was gone do what sazed did on scadrial and combine 2 shards its kalladin he fits both honor and odium so well he could probably wield both just puting that out there
Yeah what about dalinar tho?
@@christomanci well the king of the heralds is dead and ishar is insane so the heralds could use a bondsmith
@@Milk-qf5wt they could use a windrunner too lol. I meant dalinar is a good fit for "War"
I loved the combat scenes in the book, kaladin is my boy, i can't wait to see where he goes. I just hope he doesn't die....
talking about kaladin having a great noble sacrifice, the only thing that stands out to me as a reason it won't happen, is because that was basically the completion of Vin's character arc, and brandon tries to avoid that kind of repeats
the fifth ideal of the wind runners
"i will always use protection"
Hey do I always figured that when kaladin was on the verge of turning to odium his eyes were glowing yellow or what ever color cause of warlight like him holding lots of storm light and then also being very attuned to honor and then also him being fed presumingly void light from odium trying to corrupt him and with kaladin being fairly emotional I just assumed he was welding warlight
Kals so going to die. And then take up honor’s power.
I agree, for me Kaladin is Honor more than Dalinar.
"the scene that, if I think too much about, makes me cry every time"
Me already: ;-;
What if Dalinar ascend to be Honor or Unity, but still loses, and is therefore still bound to be Odium‘s servant?
Ok what if losing Kaladin is what damage Lirin's spirit web to allow him to bond with a spren.
I think the fifth oath with be "I am the Storm."
well shit, this is a nice way to start my day
I went through the same stuff Kaladin did, going through withdrawals with untreated bipolar 2 disorder. It felt like actual hell. Physically and emotionally lol. But yea, suicide was never an option for me. That's the big difference. Still know the feeling of just wanting it to end. And I still really enjoyed reading it. But I figured out the one step after another, and Im fairly certain Kaladin will reach tht point too. Hopefully soon lol. Shouldn't have to take 9 years for him.
I love long episodes 🤩
Also, AMAZING episode, I loved everything about it!!! Kaladin is my 8th favorite character in the Cosmere and this was a magnificent analysis :D
Man, feeling a scrap of what severe depression feels like by reading it must be really difficult.
Kaladin takes a break and finds moash broken. They semi heal each other.
Kaladin & Szeth < Syl & Nightblood
Kaladin will become the new vessel to Honor
The reason Kal will get with Leshwi is because he's atrocious with human women.
FINALLY!!!!!
Kaladin is amazing, he needs to keep being “the guy”!!
I think it depends on where you are with your depression whether you loooove it or stuggle to read it
Just want to say one thing:
The Son of Tanavast.
1:40:00 Something bad must happen in book #5 or there would be too little material for SA 6 - 10
I think kal is more ptsd than maniac depressed. Small discrepancy but if it doesn’t feel genuine in some way that could be why. His issues stem from the trauma of his brother’s and other deaths and working through that trauma could be beneficial where depression is more of a chemical imbalance and there’s stuff that mitigates it generally it’s something you live with.
lets be real, with how much brandon loves age gaps kaladins most likely ship is lift in the back 5
Adolin next
Necromancer supreme
I will say an Adolin and Maya episode is on the list, but the rest of 2021 is pretty tightly scheduled, so it'll still be a while. But I do want to get to it. It just might be a mid 2022 one. -Eric