Cambridge Student Gets into VERY UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION (Vegan Debate)
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
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The topics of todays debate at Cambridge University include: Which makes more sense animal rights or reducing animal suffering? Should we advocate to 'eat less meat' (reducetarianism) over Veganism? Then finally we discuss the ethics of 'freeganism'.
Chapters:
0:00 - 11:00 Animal rights Debate
11:00 - 25:01 Reduce meat, not veganism.
25:01- 28:54 Freeganism
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This one was interesting. It got into some uncomfortable territory! We ended up chatting quite a bit after this as well, good to meet you Joe.
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👋 Thank you Joey for all the amazing things you do on behalf of the animals! 🫂
19:03
Zzzzzzzzzzzactly
22:40
🎤 DROP 💥
24:01
The young man still is stuck in his Utilitarianism framework 😔
Advocating to exploit and needlessly harm innocent sentient individuals less is a sure fire recipe to further entrench the conditioning of people to always view animals as commodities. 😡
It's a horrible approach ( to merely advocate to reduce participating in the unjustified exploitation and harming of animals) if the goal is to achieve justice for animals.
@David Wishengrad Exorcist, 1st class Elaborate please.
A very high level cerebral debate. I'm a philosophy graduate myself, and it is virtually impossible for anyone who studies ethics at an academic level to not at least have serious sympathy for the vegan position. Hope that this man comes on-board totally.
Hi! I am the guy in the video, and I have!!!
@@linusgallagher1607 What?? Elaborate on that insult..
@@joefennell6220 awesome! ✌️🌱
@@joefennell6220 Well done to you
Fake news
Bro, I'm male, working class and work on building sites, you can't imagine the stick i get for being vegan.
I can, worked in a factory where I was the only Vegan, I was a source of amusement to the other men there, what they didn't understand was how stupid, immature and pathetic they made themselves look. Did it bother me, not at all as I don't care what anyone else thinks of me.
Same. Working class in a factory; there's such a 'macho' must eat meat for protein in every meal mentality. It's laughable when their all eating white bread with dead flesh and joke about me having wholemeal with hummus & salad. People are so naive about their long term health....
Same but then I look at my body along with my health and I'm happy again 😅
@paulbooth77 totally. Won't be so masculine for them when they need viagara 😂😂😂
Because you are probably annoying and a crappy low enery worker
Guy seems to be a pretty genuine dude. Love when someone can change their mind in real time.
The vegan messaging is simple. Animals have a right to live free from harm & exploitation just like us! Thanks Joey for working so hard to defend animals. 🌱🌎💯
Do you agree that mask measures are against Human Rights?
Wild animals don't live free from harm, so should we capture them all and put them in to sanctuaries?
@@bluemeister22 *free from human harm as much as possible (We live in a society *lol)
@@edwardsedwards796 great question!! 😁👍 what are your views?
Why do animals have the right to live free form harm?
That's great he wants to reduce suffering as much as possible. He said "YOU'VE CHANGED MY MIND" multiple times - that is powerful and beautiful. 💖
Until he tries the “vegan” diet and changes his mind again.
@@residentjess oh look it’s another troll account from the same loser
Well real meat is better and tastier.
@@55749 ohhhh is it?
90% of ppl who try vegan fall off the bandwagon within 1 year, 99% of ppl who try veganuary eat meat, dairy or eggs in the month.
Been vegan for 12 months and will be for the rest of my life due to you Joey. thank you mate, i feel a lot better physically, way less brain fog and the best part is less animals are now senselessly murdered because of it
Has someone ever been to jail for killing a cow or other farm animal?
@@55749 Gary yourofsky has been to jail for stealing animals but no never heard of someone going to jail for murdering animals
🎉 well done you should be proud
@@55749 get a life.
@@55749 Yes. Slaughterhouse scumbags who have been caught abusing and torturing the animals before slaughter are jailed quite often. And you raise an interesting point which highlights the hypocrisy and bizzarity of the legal system and laws around animal welfare. It is fine to murder a pig with a hammer blow to the head or exposure to brutal gas asphyxiation. It's also fine to cut off a piglet's tail and balls with scissors and remove their teeth with pliers - but kick a pig when it's being herded to the killing floor and it's criminal behaviour. We really are a demonic and hopeless species.
I feel like I just watched my former self argue against veganism right before I went vegan.
Hi! I’m Joe from the video (not Joey), and I wasn’t going to go on out of fear that I was not the sort of person Joey had in mind to talk to - but seeing your comment makes me really glad I did!
@@joefennell6220 Great job Joe!
@@joefennell6220 Thank you for making the discussion interesting and challenging! You represented consequentialism much better than I usually see it represented.
Rooting for your vegan journey to be as good for you as mine is for me!
@@joefennell6220 Really appreciated your honesty in the discussion, Joe.
@@reedclippings8991 Thank you mate!
everybody is against causing pain and suffering to animals. We are born this way. We are taught to care about certain animals and not others. Then when confronted, we do everything we can to try and justify it. when you listen closely, all the justifications are truly absurd. Great interview! Thank you 🙏🏼
99% of people fund pain and suffering to animals tho, so clearly they're not against it.
@@watch-Dominion-2018 I'd say most are against It but because they are sheltered from the truth and blind of what happens from their consumption of the products, they don't actually think about it most of the time.
@@watch-Dominion-2018good points. the majority of people don’t look at it that way. they don’t realize or think about it happening - or they tell themselves that the animals live a good life and do not suffer and feel no pain.
Not true
@@Cstil18 what do you mean?
One of the better interviewees. A conversation at a more sophisticated level but still the gaps were addressed by Joey, also successfully making conversions at those levels. It's great how you're well informed at advanced levels.
"im a not disciplined freegan" hahaha, fancy philosophical way of saying I eat anything anytime.
This one was very nice and nuanced. Joey, you should do more philosophers and farmers, these are the gatekeepers for change!
he’s doing so good at speaking with people.
Agreed. I feel like his powers are charging up
One of the best discussions you had Joey, this guy is very genuine and I have a feeling we’ll see more of him some time.
Thanks man! I’m Joe ❤ and really am grateful to have had this conversation and get inspired again to stick to the real Vegan diet!
ok, it's worded this way @@katharinah.5759
@Katharina H. He never said veganism is a diet just he was going to eat a vegan diet which implies the food vegans eat.. why toss such a pointless comment out there at someone wanting to be vegan?
@@katharinah.5759being a karen isn't needed
This was a great conversation between two intelligent guys.
Also nice to see it was in Cambridge, I've lived there for 5 years.
What genuine guy, I have so much respect for this man for admitting his cognitive dissonance and changing his mind.
"In the wild...." I could careless what happens in the wild, I want to be better than that.
Wild animals tho
Thanks for consistently advocating for the abolitionist vegan position Joey. 🌱 💚
Joey is hard at work saving the animals and I wish I could thank him in person
true!
@Haz_Vegan
Total abstinence IS immeasurably easier than any kind of moderation.
- after St. Augustine.
😌
@@PercivalBlakeney I missed you.
@@pacmanmcgavin5980
Everyone says that until I start talking.
🤔
I’m not sure you’ll read this but i hope you know how much of a legend you are bro. Literally making the world a better place! 👊🧡
@@rondarkman. there you are again
He truely is a legend 🙌🏻 he is doing good in this world unlike LOSER trolls with nothing better to do
@@rondarkman. stop talking about yourself
@@rondarkman. but you are a pro animal abuser directly responsible for untold number of innocent lives tortured in unwatchable ways
No mind was changed... Where do you vegans get this imagination from? He said he supports veganism but is a cheapskate right from the start...
Great conversation! I'm always impressed by people who sit down willing to listen, discuss their ideas and show that they're open about having their minds changed. Also really lovely moment when you stopped the debate to grab a coat for him! 😆
That was an incredible debate. Who wouldn't like honest Joe. Impressive debating skills from Joey, he knows all there is to know. Cosmic Skeptic could learn a lot from watching this.
Is Joey the last street activist in GB now? There used to be so many.
Great that you put explanations of these different ideas and philosophies onscreen otherwise I wouldn't have known what you meant half the time
Neither would I. I’m a community college dropout
This is how it's done! 💚
I love it.
A respectful and open minded discussion and a change of mind because of being true and consistent with their own values.
Thank you for that conversation.
I really enjoyed it a lot.
Thrilled you liked listening to it!
I wanna be this guy .....his transparency is what i aspire for
Great discussion ❤
It was as per usual. Joey is great at communicating
Fantastic discussion, intelligent humans will get it 👍🏻
@Pacman McGavin you will not steal my husband, Lara.
@Pacman McGavin I own you, Lara.
@Pacman McGavin pretty odd
Much respect for that guy for examining his position and seeing the contradictions in it! I think this is a good example of how when you commit to consistency and logically engage with the facts that veganism is the only real answer. Every rationalization for eating meat can't escape the fundamental fact that we're talking about enslaving, torturing, and killing animals solely for our pleasure.
Veganism is obviously not the only answer. The guilt tripping and empty claims don't work on most people because they simply don't share your moral views and don't accept them. Your own positions are contradictory where you advocate equal rights to all sentient beings but then don't start that "suffering prevention" in the animal kingdom where the level of suffering and methods used to kill prey cause much more of that suffering you claim to fight against. Why don't you stop the lions from biting the nuts of other animals first and then whine about the methods we use?
Very nice to see a productive discussion with someone knowledgeable on philosophy. Great video Joey.
loving the outreach . great debate. awesome stuff. a step in the right direction to free more animals from suffering in the world
You said it, brother!
Honest discussion of grey areas. Glad I listened to this one.
Big applause to Joe! Very honest conversation. We're looking at a future vegan here.
One of your best ones Joey, bravo 👏
So many ppl you have on I dislike because I don’t think they’re good ppl. They make all the excuses and they don’t seem to consider the idea of veganism as a viable choice for them. This guy was different I got a good feeling from him and I think there’s hope with him that he’ll make the change
Your philosophical arguments have gotten so good in these recent debate videos. Excellent stuff 👍
I saw your videos almost 5 years ago now and they (and similar ones from Earthling Ed stand out in memory) are the reason I am vegan today. Will be 5 years in May ✊🥦
Keep it up!
Beautifully articulated Joey, keep spreading the message 💚
Joey engaging with these philosophy and ethics students is glorious. A perfect moment in time to use logic aligned with love to break through dry dead end logic. They'll never forget these conversations.
Thank you Joey! And Joey too. Great conversation.
You're so wonderful Joey 🥰🙏 I admire you, and love you for all you do. Keep it up 💞🤗
Genuinely your most interesting conversation. Need more like this fella who have more than 2 brain cells to knock together...I'm still uncertain about where I stand between the two of your views, although definitely would never be fregan as I don't think it holds up from a consequentialist perspective.
What a beautiful, intellectually honest conversation. Joey, your work is amazing.
I'm vegan and antispeciesist, but I always found freeganism very interesting. Also things like buying second hand wool or leather (I mostly buy second hand stuff bcs I don't wanna support fast fashion)... I'm chosing not to do it because it makes me uncomfortable knowing that I'm wearing what should not be mine, but I wore my old leather boots to pieces (I'm not rich and when I became vegan I wasn't able to just go and buy new boots). I'm still wearing old wool (too consumed to be given away) and I don't feel good doing it, but ultimately I think this is a grey area and that I cannot do more than my best. I'm open to hearing other people's opinion on the subject
Agreed with you, I know someone who is freegan, he lives a fungal lifestyle ,does dumpster diving and hitch-hiking even he could have lived perfectly comfortable .actually I am kinda admire him but personally I can't no longer stand the taste of animals , it's funny because I used to love eating animals .
@@pintw4379 I get you on the taste thing! The fact is that now when I see meat, leather, wool, etc, I know what there is behind it and I just cannot see it as food/as materials I'm okay with using. I understand the ethics of freeganism, but in the long run it should lead to veganism (or veganism + freeganism), since scrap meat can only exist as long as meat consumption exists, etc... (for now, tho, it is probably something good (?))
@@pintw4379 fun·gal
/ˈfəNGɡ(ə)l/
adjective
of or caused by a fungus or fungi.
"fungal diseases such as mildew"
I guess spending time in dumpsters has its consequences!
I've been vegan for a good few years now, but still wear leather & wool products I owned previously. I'm not going to ditch them as it would create the need to buy other items unnecessarily. I don't feel that using these items until the end of their life is ethically bad, just more sustainable.
@@pintw4379 what is fungal lifestyle? 🤩did you mean frugal?😁
Man , he is so transparent wow ...
AWESOME very intelligent discussion HOPE THE GUY GOES VEGAN 🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱
Class as always Joey! 👌 🙌
Joey is a very classy man
Very interesting talk, especially what you said about reductionism.
Great video, VFTA . Thanks 💗💗💗💗.
such a honest and frank exchange rarely seen in these kind of debates.. great work joe and joey.
I love this convo. Great work as always Joey.
One of my favorite recent discussions. Both Joe's have a great head on their shoulders
This was one of my faves that J Carbs has done! Kudus to the freegan for being so laid back. He had some interesting points! We need more conversations; less debate for the sake of winning for a certain tribe! Thank you. Keep on keeping on man!
🥦😁🥔💪🏼
Thanks for speaking up against animal cruelty.
Joey thank you! Until every cage is empty!!!
Great conversation 👍👍
That was a really good conversation. Your communication of the reasoning itself was on fire here. 👏
Really great one Joey! You should debate Tobias Leenaert regarding reducetarianism.
loved the video
Joey you are so passionate and wise! Thank you!! Thank you!! Thank you!!
Love this series Joey. This discussion is right up there with my favourites.
Interesting convo
Very interesting conversation 🤠
"Other animals". Humans and "other animals". Humans are just one type of animal. 👦🐵🐷 🐮🐰🐶🐻🐺🐹🐸
Maybe you've lived under a rock but when people say "animals" outside of a scientific context, they usually mean non-humans.
@@MustardSkaven It sounds a bit odd to me, and I think words are important to have a better understanding of who we are defending from oppression.
Like if I said "whites and races" or if I called females, "non-males", it's drawing an unusual line between humans and other animals.
Many humans think they are not an animal and follow human supremacists beliefs. So using better words to describe other animals, will get us closer to reducing suffering. ✌️
@@leviahimsa It shouldn't sound odd to you. If it sounds odd to you, you definitely live under a rock.
"animal" is commonly used to refer to non-humans, even by vegans.
@@leviahimsa That's all very great but it doesn't change the fact of the matter.
@@MustardSkaven Some humans, including some vegans, still call other animals "it" too.
It sounds odd still, I understand what they're saying. It doesn't mean I live under a rock. ✌️
This was my absolute favorite conversation I've seen of yours Joey. Very well done comrade. Peace be with you.
I love you mate, thanks for your inspiration! ❤
And I love you!
ooo this was gooooood - now he is right there with the verbal agility and intellectuals, very nice questions, interesting thoughts, vibrant debate, loved that! Thanks for this!
Around the 20 minute mark the comparison between politics and veganism came up, and I think there's a very important difference - if you tell someone they should go vegan, they can make as little or as much of a change as they like. A 'middle ground' appproach makes more sense in politics because when you're voting you either take it or leave it with the policies that the party wants to put in place (somewhat, at least). With veganism the only middle ground is how much someone decides to implement things themselves, so you should advocate truthfully and completely. Great video as always, Joey :)
Highly enjoyed this debate. Joey, you are a king!
Thank you Joey for everything you do!!! ❤
This was an awesome debate Joey. Really like the wikipedia definition popups and summarizations in between. It was delighting to see you getting an upper hand over even a philosopher. I think anyone who is a true philosopher would have to be a vegan for sure. Alex has just fallen in my eyes.
great video joey
My husband and I watch Joeys videos together
Damn right u create activists joey one of yours right here
Love you vids joey brother
Brilliant👏🏼
You are doing god's work my friend. You have my highest level of respect.
I liked this guy! He was so honest and he looked kind. Thank Joey for that conversation!
Good debate. Well done.
This interview highlights a very important point IMO: veganism is the anti-speciesism movement. Like racism, sexism, homophobia etc, it's just another stupid cognitive bias that we humans are prone to suffer from. It's great to see someone who is willing and able to self-reflect on this instead of become defensive.
We need this human in the movement! He would be such a good advocate for the animals. He has charisma and he’s so smart. 🙌🏼
such a great debate! Obviously a good dude!
Thanks!
This conversation was a superb example of two intellectual individuals philosophising in its raw form to reach an final view point that makes sense without letting ego interfere with the objective. A class act from both men 👏 👏👏 love to see it.
Really like both of those Joes
Great discussion Joey. This is an important talking point for animal rights. I'd have loved if a Cosmic Skeptic of a year ago made a response video to this, as I think his old stance was somewhere in between the two of you here. Though maybe you're right, that being not absolutist eventually leads to regression as we've seen with Alex as well.
damn, such a great video!
Great one, Joey! Honestly, fair points towards the end, too, in terms of efficiency of advocacy. I wish everyone we talk to made the connection ethically to see animals as individuals with I heart value, but… BUT 😪
Joey this is great, you've grown so much in your style (although your older style was sick too). Inspiring man.
Joey has really upgraded his higher intellectual debate chops. Awesome talk.
The problem with eating roadkill or any other meat that you've acquired without paying for it is that it normalizes eating flesh. Even on the utilitarian point of view, this will surely lead to more suffering. Imagine if as a society we adopted the view that it's okay to eat human flesh as long as you didn't contribute to the person's death. To me it's blatantly obvious that a world like this would place far less value on human lives, which would lead to more suffering. The moral taboo on cannibalism teaches us that human life is sacred and human death is a tragic thing that should not be used to derive sensory pleasure. The same taboo should be extended to animals, and by violating this you are signaling to others that animals lives don't matter, their death isn't tragic, so it's okay to eat their corpses.
Edit: I should have finished the video before writing this. Joey makes essentially the same point at the end. Amazing conversation.
@@rondarkman. It's normal in that it's a widely practiced behavior, but it's also normal for people to say that they are against animal abuse. These two things contradict each other.
Every time i finish watching these long chats I feel like I've strengthened my armour. Thank you Joey
I think this is the most intellectually stimulating vegan debate I’ve ever seen. WAY TO GO JOEY!!! The work you go does make activists (including myself.)
Your greatest debate yet.
Great 😊 thank you Joey 💚
Excellent conversation. Well done Joey and other person is gets my respect too 💚
We love you Joey mate !!
great talk
Moral consistency and vulnerability through honesty are very attractive qualities, Joes!
Loved this video, great work as always. Glad he was respectful & honest! Hopefully a soon to be vegan & an animal rights activist
Great chap. Intellectually honest!
A consequentialist can say that death is bad even if it doesnt cause you suffering for a number of reasons (1) deprives you of the rest of your life (2) violates preferences of a psychologically continuous being (3) rights, yeah, rights, you can easily include rights in a consequentialist framework, like Mill or Sidgwick. Once you ground them on utility, you can just appeal to the right, you dont need to always appeal to your criterion of goodness, utility, if you have justified a rule or right based decision procedure.
Yeah, I always get a bit frustrated when fellow consequentialists don’t mention the deprivation of future utility. Even if you could hypothetically unalive someone without any suffering, it’s almost always wrong, as you’re preventing them from experiencing future happiness. I think this fits pretty well with our moral intuitions, too. We would be against doing the suffering-free unaliving UNLESS the being would experience a net negative utility for the rest of their life. In practice, this means we would advocate for the Platonic ideal of mercy unalivings: no harm in the act, and the prevention of major suffering in the future. I find this very palatable.
@@meinekeman161 I completely agree
Good job!
I went vegan after losing so many debates to joeys fans
Thanks for the vid 💚
I like to think that for every antivegan who stands against you, there are millions of animals who stand with you.
What a great vegan outreach conversation 😀🌱👌🏼
15:20 - "abolishing raype is a less good outcome than allowing a little bit of raype"
I like intelligent debates, this was good!