One truly amazing thing about Hugo* is how open to discussion he is, and how he's not aggressively defensive at all. He's aware of his thinking being likely imperfect and he actually tries to come to logical, consistent conclusions. It's not common and it's fantastic you stumbled upon him!
Yeah... this is how men are supposed to be... able to have a conversation and come away wiser and closer. 'Love all' means being honest, including with oneself.
*YOU SAID:* _"One truly amazing thing about Hugo* is how open to discussion he is, and how he's not aggressively defensive at all."_ Indeed. This is how every thinking man should approach issues that he has not investigated. But Hugo lacks the intellectual ability to immediately detect fraud and folly here. That is what accounts for his openness. When Joey began with the presupposition that animals have rights to be taken away, despite that the question before them is whether animals even have rights, Hugo should have detected the error and then mentioned it. And should Joey have persisted in the error, Hugo should have summarily dismissed Joey as a fraud.
@@oscarbenigsen4538 Nah, Hugo agreed they should have negative rights. It's not that uncommon to disagree with this claim, and I'm pretty sure if he hadn't he would've let Joey know. And walked away. And, maybe, just maybe, realized there was such an elephant in the room, as he did see many other minor details he found ungrounded or doubtful.
@@zethayn *YOU SAID:* _"Nah, Hugo agreed they should have negative rights."_ He only agreed by accepting the presupposition of rights, this,, without a logically established basis for it. Once he did that, fraudulence prevailed. Had I been there I would have simply said "you have given no compelling reason for the assumption that the animal has the right not to be turned into burgers." And the argument would have been over before Joey had gotten it out of his mouth.
@@oscarbenigsen4538 I don't know what you're playing but if both agree on that, the only discussion to be had within the framework is about further inconsistencies. If you don't think animals (were also animals by the way) should have negative rights, I don't remember if it was here or in some other clip, but Joey does actually address the issue. It's not that hard. Give some arguments a try. Or just keep commenting randomly
@@saywhat303 Many people are guardians of non-human animals (we call them pets) and part of that guardianship is protecting them from harm, providing and paying for healthcare, and respect of their body when they die. We would also take any steps we could to prevent physical harm to them. Why when Joey referenced sheep rather than, say, a dog, do you have an issue with that principle?
@@saywhat303 No, you are misunderstanding him. In the video he referenced the sheep that he has guardianship over. Nothing in his reply to you extended that protection. You are putting your own interpretation on it. I suggest that you re-watch the video and listen carefully to what Joey says without placing your own bias on it.
@@saywhat303 We don't have get rid of all animal predators. We can create ecosystems where we feed lab-grown meat to predators, we could even create gazelle-like robots covered in this lab-grown meat. We could have drones and AI systems that take care of these ecosystems and make sure all sentient beings are living a good life.
Excellent conversation Joey. That dude is not stupid and he understood his own inconsistencies. This is how you peal off the layers of social conditioning and cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately it doesn't work for some people who tend to get defensive or argumentative. But well done Joey! 👏I enjoy watching these kind of conversations more than heated debates. 🙂
I remember a first video I saw of Joey. I was already a vegan and he looked like one of fitness vegan guys that made me think this guy will be out of this in a couple of months. It was a video where he talked about muscles, fitness or something like that. All the same to me. I am so happy I was so wrong. :) Also, the evolution of his activism is noticeable. He is getting better and better, exponentially. It is not a subtle change. Every video, he levels up couple of levels. Also, I am ashamed to admit I was the person who did not believe in second chances. Listening to his story, struggle with addiction and listening to his stance now and parallels he made between his old and new life, made me change my position on that.
What I love to see is people thinking he's just a "crazy vegan" and quickly realising he's incredibly knowledgeable and very effective at debate. He seems to have earned his intelligence through shear hard work. It's amazing.
Don't know how many times I've put this out in the comments. But I feel this is important. I have chronic kidney disease. Have been on dialysis for 5 years, and this period included a failed transplant. I've been vegan for a year, and Joey, and lots of other activists, had a significant effect on my decision. The moment I realized this was a rights issue I turned vegan. I also have become a significantly kinder person, though what I define as my kind has broadened exponentially! I'm vegan for the animals, my health has nothing to do with it, and neither has my position ever affected my health. Thanks!
@@Akash_Vegan Have you tried contacting Dr. McDougall and have him help you go on the rice diet? Low protein is supposed to help people with kidney problems.
@@suicune2001 I'm a doctor with a post graduate degree in internal medicine. I also have great nutritionist friends. In my experience, I've thrived on a plant based diet. I managed to decrease the frequency of my dialysis by mindfully controlling protein intake. But, again my veganism has nothing to do with this. Any health condition can have optimal vegan or non vegan diet options.
This guy was actually alright. He was truly curious and wanting to understand your position and way of knowing. He did not try to come up with silly excuses for bad behaviors. He was not a troll carnist or idiot. He just truly wanted to learn more and had the ability to admit when he was wrong and wanting to rethink and even change his own position on things. This guy had humility which is required to change. CREDITS to this guy! This is rare and a good quality! I like him and I could become friends with him for these reasons. And as ALWAYS... WELL DONE JOEY! Great discussion!
What a thoroughly pleasant man ! Great debate,such a joy watching and listening to someone so open and intelligent as Hugo ! I hope he researches more and shares the information with friends and family. As Joey said " can you morally justify not being vegan ? " Once you know about the Animal Holocaust you can't un-know it ! THANK YOU Joey for waking people up,making them aware of the cruelty and death they are paying for when they could easily choose something else to eat.
So interesting how you convey the justice issue of animal rights, particularly in your recent videos. I’m really learning a lot listening to you, been vegan for 4 years and definitely now an animal rights advocate 💚
But if you had to choose between eating a human animal or a non-human animal (such as a cow), which would you choose? If you choose the non-human animal, then your position is utterly bankrupt.
Somehow, I feel like Joey has recently taken his debating skills to another level. The fact that he focused on not getting derailed and go into actions and practicality before having resolved the principles first that should determine if animals should have rights or not, or working backwards to a hypothetical society were dogs are bred for their poop is brilliant!
Wtf Joey this was amazing, really great talk through. And he was so open and friendly. I feel like he really tried debunking himself and his ethical stand with that sheep scenario actually, pretty cool.
Well done Hugo: so refreshing to see a young open minded person who enjoys debating and reflection! Thank you Joey for your hard work and for challenging your debating skills with students of philosophy and similar 🎉 ❤
I really like this argument against freeganism. I've been trying to sharpen mine. I think it comes down to protecting our own models of reality. It's like the difference between calling someone a slur out loud and calling them a slur in your head. The actual act of calling someone a slur in your head doesn't harm the person directly, but it seems to reinforce in your own mind that it's ok to mistreat them. In the same way, eating a discarded egg seems to reinforce the idea in your head that birds are there to produce eggs for your consumption, and that leads to later mistreatment
What an incredible debate YOU ARE SO GOOD AT SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE ANIMALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can be this good too y'all, keep at it, remember who we are doing it for
You’re really at another level now, this is impressive. I can see the influence of people like the Nutrivore, Ask Yourself and Dr Avi on you. Keep it up.
Yeah the speed at which he dropped that it's about sentience and not about animals, and then following up with a well executed NTT, all whilst staying laser-focused on the contention at hand and not letting himself get sidetracked really has me feel like one of those peeps personally coached him. But perhaps he was just paying close attention. Well done Joey!
I think this might possibly be your best debate video I've ever seen. Hats off, hands clapping. A veritable tour de force and lesson for anyone considering becoming an activist!! 🎩👏👏👏
Great video as usual! I'd say animal eater though, not meat eater. I think it's more powerful. Humans don't just eat the meat/flesh of other animals, but what comes out of them, too.
Excellent debate. Only one point near the end where I'm not sure I agree with Joey, or maybe misunderstood his view? Around 20:15 they're discussing wild animals and prey/predators. Is Joey saying the rights of all prey should be protected? Or does he mean just protecting animals in his care? If he's talking about all prey, than this isn't consistent with not being a hypocrite as of course predators need to eat to feed themselves and their families. In the wild there must be some balance or populations grow out of control and then decline again when resources are scarce. The difference between what we do to animals, and the natural order is that in the wild, most hunts are unsuccessful (from the predators point of view), and predators tend to go for the old and sick individuals. At least it's a fair fight for both predator and prey. What we do by farming animals is not giving them any chance. From birth to slaughterhouse, their fate is sealed. 100% they will be killed, most when they have barely reached maturity, for example pigs at 6months old. They're still only babies. Just because we are an intelligent and resourceful species, we shouldn't turn our efforts into harming non-human animals. Animal agriculture in general and it's progression into factory farming is one of the worst things humanity has ever done. Also, protecting animal rights in the wild is such a grey area. What about the many many animals that are both predator and prey somewhere in the middle of the foodweb? What gives us the power to enforce such rights, or meddle in nature? I watched a few Humane Hancock debates but stopped following him when he started talking about these themes about humans stopping wild animals killing other animals. Suffering, grief and loss is a part of life, for us and other species as well. It's sad, and of course we want to protect innocent beings from pain but sometimes we can't get in the way. Joey would protect the hypothetical flock of sheep in his sanctuary from the wolves because he is their carer/guardian. They are part of his circle of care. But what about the wolves? Just an interesting thought. I love my dog because she's a member of my family. She is within my 'circle of care'. If a wolf tried to harm her of course I would protect her, no question. But I think, surely part of being vegan is seeing the world from the wolf's perspective? By that I mean empathy for others, their needs and suffering, joy, etc... My love for my dog lead me to start thinking about other beautiful beings I've never met, who have the capacity to experience life just as she can but who are unable to due to us. The cows, pigs, chickens, fish, we kill everyday 😢 getting to know her also lead me to think about wild animals and the importance of their own bonds & connections with others, with their own families and social groups that have absolutely nothing to do with humans, but are just as important as our bonds. Their value for their own sake, not just value in our eyes from a human appreciation of the wild. On his point about respecting the body, once that sheep in your care is dead, why not let the wolves scavenge? What would burying them achieve? Maybe just a ritual to help grieving process of those left behind, just as we need to do so for human people...but maybe it's time to let go....for humans and animals. Stop trying to protect ourselves from nature and natural processes so much?
I completely agree with your arguments. Wolves have been reintroduced in my country recently and as they are protected, it is a crime to kill them. But sheep farmers complain about their flocks getting attacked. Sheep have been selectively bred to be docile and meek. That is to their, and the farmer's demise. I guess the best way to deal with that is to prevent the wolves being able to get to the sheep in the first place. By building higher fences they can't jump (that's what the conservationists advise the farmers to do). Now that more farmlands are being rewilded (given back to nature), we need to learn to deal with the consequences... dear and swines eating and destroying your veggie garden, wolves going after your sheep. Interesting to see how people suddenly see nature as 'annoying' instead of learning how to co-exist with wild animals.
what an outstanding debate.. good luck to Hugo.. I love the way you keep on track Joey, offering to answer an additional query once the initial one is settled.. therefor never being sidetracked or distracted. thank you so much for all the work you are doing for the animals.
We are dealing with matters of morality and legality. To compound the legality hurdles we have the economics which the legalities are based upon to overcome. To say veganism upsets the money changers in the temple. Jesus was safe as long as he remained outside of Jerusalem. Stay safe Joey. We need you to continue articulating basic principals of conscience. Usury of all forms is anathema to conscience. Capitalism is based in usury. The devil is your adversary.
@@robsengahay5614 No true Scotsman fallacy. "No True Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their generalized statement from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly." "Vegans are smart and intellectually honest so you can't be smart or intellectually honest if you're not a vegan". Exactly what happened here.
Great debate! While watching my three year old asked me “who is he?” I said his name is Joey Carbstrong and he is vegan. She got excited and said “he is vegan LIKE US!” We don’t have a lot of vegan people around us so it is so great to have a community online with such intelligent people to listen to! Thanks for this, Joey. 😊
I would consider becoming vegan if I didn't have Crohn's Disease. It is not possible for me to have my nutritional needs med through a plant-only diet: while the causes of Crohn's are unknown, it is known that an individual with Crohn's should minimize their fruit and veg intake, and especially any plant matter that contains any significant amount of insoluble fibre, which is a shame because I love legumes, broccoli, many other veg, and in particular, fruit. I am told by my doctors constantly to consume more simple carbs and meat and minimize my fruit and veg intake. I like some others made the mistake of not listening in the past, which resulted in my immune system attacking my gastrointestinal system and me almost dying. Right now about 40% of my intestines are either not connected or removed, and I am one surgery away from requiring a feeding tube for life, which would severely degrade my quality of life. It is disappointing because I don't think it would be hard for me to transition to a plant-based diet. As it stands, I mostly consume simple carbs, but it's not sufficient: my B12 levels were so low on my last blood panel that they were considered to be undetectable and my gastroenterologist is convinced that I have probably suffered permanent damage as a result, and I'm inclined to agree based on the symptoms I've experienced. I take a B12 shot every week and still, my levels are quite low. Unfortunately, it's just not feasible for some of us to be vegan. This was a good debate. I have a friend who is obnoxiously vegan and very misinformed on many points. She views veganism as a competition, essentially, and if even a molecule of any animal or animal product accidentally passes her lips, she goes to the extreme of feeling like she has betrayed her morals. She is difficult, to say the least, and a very aggressive, confrontational vegan who unfortunately probably drives people away from the cause rather than showing them how incredibly delicious and nutritious vegan food can be.
So sorry you struggle with this horrible disease. Have you tried supplementing with complete nutrition solutions like Huel or Soylent? Would you be able to tolerate those? They are vegan, so using them would allow you to align your morals and your diet.
@@MSchipper I haven't, but I appreciate the suggestion and I'll check them out and see if anyone with Crohn's has experience with them. Thanks very much for the info!
Great discussion and a good ending. I got the feeling that Hugo was hearing some of these arguments for the first time and was open to listening and not being all defensive
By definition all life, even uni-cellular life is sentient :) Not in a sense we could comprehend. So absolutely everything we do or eat would play into the circle of life, deaths and all. Our true place in Nature, and also the least destructive one and the more productive one at the same time is tropical super-frugivores. We eat the part of the plant the plant offers, spit the seeds directly or we digest it with the help of bacteria in the absence of we would be dead, then excrete the seeds + fertilizer while traveling far enough to insure the best seeds spreading patterns. So everything from what enters our mouths to what exists our gut is the Nature's design to help tropical fruits spread and all life be in balance. We are in fact a condominium of bacteria both in and out, fully dependent on first the right climate then the fruits automatically present there (not apples, and pairs and the cold areas puny fruits). All living organisms are because all life started with bacteria and still depends on them. Bacteria / mitochondria are the mydiclorians of all life :) NO bacteria = no life. So we should not eat tropical fruits for pleasure or nutrition but be what the very bacteria in us expect us to be. Eating anything else, living anywhere else, thinking thus all sorts of stupid thoughts is just a recipe for continuous chained disasters = modern civilisation :) Obviously adminting we were wrong for millions of years is difficult, especially with a more twisted and clouded mind. But, if anything else all we have to do is forget about our future and just be totally honest about our babie's future. A heaven for babies = tropical fruit eden despite all of our "knowledge" and "know how" and "science" and "technology" etc. Nature will take care of the rest and we, the destroyed adults will just have to master the power to keep away :)
Why is it that Joey never argues with anyone who can truly debate? Here's how you topple the vegan saving animals notion. Vegans actually kill more animals being vegan than carnivores. You kill 5-10x more animals - rabbits, squirrels, rodents, dear, birds...all from digging up the ground and planting crops. More land is destroyed growing soy products than sustainably eating meat. Grass Fed beef is more nutrient dense and offers more protein/benefits then a strict veggie diet not to mention you kill less animals comparatively r pound. I think Joey's heart is in the right place but there's something called a food chain and if you want to thrive, it won't be happening on a strict vegan diet unless you're introducing a lot of supplements which btw so many animals are killed to create.
Joey, your debate skills have got so solid lately! I’m loving this content. And it’s really nice to see a conversation like this - where the non-vegan is intellectually honest enough to engage with the conversation!
I enjoy hunting and fishing, i eat what i kill. I enjoy foraging for wild edibles including fruit, berries, leaves and mushrooms. Im a healthy man and respect wildlife and the balance of good nutrition. Am i a bad person?
Whilst you've always been an incredible activist, Joey, your engagement in recent months and years with more rigorous philosophical nomenclature and concepts has amplified your effectiveness. I attribute much of this (in particular the Name The Trait argument which you run here) to Ask Yourself, but the overwhelming kudos must go to you. You now have a repertoire of questions, prompts and thoughts which allows you to engage wonderfully with everyone - from the ignorant, to the mis-informed, to the emotional, to the well-educated, to the philosophy nerd. Coupled with the reach you've built up over many years, I can say with confidence that you will go down as a legend in the fight for animal liberation. Whilst the animals may not be able to thank you for your service, we can. Thank you.
I completely agree with you. Joey Carbstrong's dedication to animal rights activism is admirable, and his recent focus on philosophical concepts has added a new dimension to his effectiveness as an advocate. It's clear that he's done a lot of work to develop a repertoire of questions and prompts that allow him to engage with people from a wide range of backgrounds and levels of understanding. And his success in building a large following has given him a powerful platform to promote the cause of animal liberation. He's truly a force to be reckoned with, and I have no doubt that he will go down in history as a key figure in the fight for animal rights. We owe him a debt of gratitude for his tireless work on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves.
26:08 an example that can be confronting.. the person who wants to pay for children to be trafficked creates the demand for the product.. lol same with meat.. EQUALLY as morally reprehensible ..
I am skeptical that going fully vegan really does have broad support from Cambridge University students. Of course, the best vote is the one where people are voting with their wallets. I bet if the University provided both vegan and non-vegan options, the non-vegan options would be far more popular. The big concern is that, as usual, a small group of loud activists has decided that they should decide these things for everybody.
The way I always answer the question "what would happen to all the animals if we went vegan overnight?" question is to say, that if we all truly went vegan, we would feel so guilty we could GLADLY pay for them to live out of the rest of their lives in comfort. They will and the means would suddenly be there, because we were all vegan. (Vegan btw)
Joey is so far superior than the rest of us humanoid misconceptions. We're so lucky to have him amongst us and to enlighten us about our flawed ways. He did apear a little hyper though, reminded me of my drugged roommate back from college when his drugs wore out- he was always fun though Nevertheless great interviewing skills
He admits he’s no biologist, and clearly doesn’t know anything about social animals besides humans, but then assumes only humans can care about principles and every other animal is “only about survival”? Why would you try to assert your guess as correct when you know and admit that it’s just a guess?
@Joey Carbstrong … more power to you 💪💪. Your videos were very inspiring & provided me the motivation to make a big lifestyle change. Been a vegan for over 3 years now and my only regret is for the lost years when I wasn’t a vegan.
According to some historical accounts, Pythagoras, the ancient Greek philosopher and mathematician, had a fear of beans. This fear, known as "favism," is a common phobia that some people have towards beans and other legumes. There are different theories as to why Pythagoras had this fear of beans. One theory is that he believed beans to be associated with death and the underworld, and therefore considered them impure. Another theory suggests that Pythagoras may have been allergic to beans, and his aversion to them was based on his physical reaction to them. Regardless of the reason, Pythagoras' fear of beans is well-documented in ancient sources, including the writings of the philosopher Porphyry, who claimed that Pythagoras warned his followers against eating beans and even prohibited them from growing in his community.
Joey’s approach has become impeccable. (always has been, but even better now) he’s combined his passion with a deep understanding of the philosophy. also, his interlocutor was a great listener. a rare quality in general. hopefully this guy will adopt veganism and pass it along to his friends/fam.
Does protecting wild animals (or the guarded sheep) from being eaten by other wild animals still count as negative rights? I mean, you need to do something to prevent that from happening instead of stop doing something. Also, dignity sounds like something more than just negative rights.
He can speak as much morals as hei wants. Im glad im no longer feeling guilty of what those people preach. Luckily i got out of the illution before it Was to late. The plant based diet ruined a lot of health for me. Now i only eat like my ancesters did and everything is in balance.
Joey, despite you killing it in your recent debates, I have always been impressed with your skills since you came on the scene. Cannot recall one bad video that gave the other side some indication they found the justification for not being vegan. I like the note taking, very cool. Amazing work as always.
I'm not sure if I agree with Joey on Eggs. For instance, if someone is homesteading, and the chickens live an amazing life until they die, then what's wrong with eating their eggs? Otherwise, their eggs are gonna go to waste.
@@bluemeister22 Is it morally right to take a life that wants to live? Is it morally right to treat people and animals how we would like to be treated?🤓👌
@@chrissiehorsley304 Depens on the life, sentience is just an arbitrary line you draw. These animals wouldt exist without us, their main purpose in live is human consumption. Don't compare farm animals to humans.
As a meat eater, I do not value animals on the same level as a human beings. And the vast majority of humans on this planet agree with that statement. There is a reason if a story comes out on the new saying all the cows burned alive in a farm doesn’t get the same emotional reaction as if let’s say and sci-fi e shooter killed 3 kids at school. Ultimately, these debates are west of times. If you’re a meat eater, just admit you don’t care about animals it’s easier and you can stay more consistent.
As far as I am concerned, without the right to your own life you have no rights in your life, and for any other animal I would say the same thing. As for animal rights we do things to animals that, if we did these same things to humans the public would be outraged and horrified.
Pythagarus thought beams contained the souls of humans and didn't want to go into a bean feild due to superstition whilst fleeing those who were attacking his cult. His unwillingness to go into the fields cost him his life.
so according to you is keeping pets or using animals for daily tasks like commute or as guides is also bad and should be banned? because as far as i know they are enslaved and used as property.
I see Joey’s been taken in by Avi’s predator argument - it’s just sad. The guy sits here and goes on and on about rights violations then turns around and admits he’d have no issue with violating the animal predators life ie it’s right to eat what it does to survive. And yes, if you swapped out a human for the sheep I’d be saying the same thing - it’s a rights violation, so even if in practice I decided to save the human or sheep for any number of reasons, it would still not be a moral action. I think this is no where near as ridiculous as some of the reductios Joey now as to accept - one being that he should have no problem in principle with killing human hunters who kill animals only to eat them. Don’t be tricked into defending this nonsense, Joey!
When he said that being part of the human species is what gives humans these rights and not animals, you went with the argument about a humanoid. I would have gone down a slightly different route. First of all, if only homo sapiens have these rights, would this gentleman be morally ok with neanderthals, denisovans and other highly intelligent species under the Homo genus who are NOT part of the human species being treated the same way we treat cows? Further, the word "species" is not a strictly defined word. In GCSE & A level biology we are taught that "species" is a group of organisms that can interbreed to produce fertile off-spring. This is a simplistic definition, because there are humans who cannot interbreed because they carry particular gene varieties that would result in stillbirth, and also homo sapiens interbred with neanderthals even though the two are different species with a common ancestor. So the word "species" is not black and white. In order to be used in a moral argument like this where to have rights you need to be part of the human species, you need to be able to be clearly define "human species". If you define that as Homo sapiens sapiens, then you run into the problem of being morally ok with neanderthals having no rights. But if you say that neanderthals have rights, then you are saying multiple species have rights, which means "species" is irrelevant when it comes to who has rights and who doesn't. Would love to hear your thoughts on this Joey!
There are evolutionary benefits to looking after your own species, thats not a contradiction. Who or what is the objective moral judge marking down who has contradicted themselves? Who is the moral judge who we have to give justification to? As far as im aware, morals are societal, and being a pioneer of a 'moral' movement doesnt mean you are necessarily correct. I could say morally covid has as much right to live as us, I would be making a moral case according to myself but society would rightly reject it. Morals are decided by societys and there is no objective standard, unless you are religious
Looking after our own species is important evolutionarily, but are humans under threat? Are we acting in self defense when we breed animals into existence to kill them and eat their flesh? Regarding moral judge, you likely already agree that any behavior that involves a victim requires justification. Like if someone harmed you, you would want a reason for it -- something like self-defense or survival. What's our justification for harming animals? Covid is a virus, not a sentient being. If you watched the debate, you'll note that Joey is concerned with the rights of sentient beings.
#JoeyCarbstrong An question to you that I worry about everyone becoming Vegetarian or Vegan! A diet that includes meat eaters are becoming more processed since the 90's that has led to increased obesity, diabetes and heart disease and I want to know is it possible to become Vegan on a non processed diet and stay healthy? I am worried that people that become vegan won't be able to afford the non processed /non junk food especially if that is your only choice. Bill Gates is even looking into making fake meat using animals DNA that is linked to cancer. Humans need non processed foods, low sugar and a small amount of carbohydrates diets, it even reverses type 2 diabetes when the pyramid diet fails to help. I am not against Vegetarians or Vegans, it is just a fear of mine.
Processed foods are quite often more expensive. The cheapest foods I can find are staple unprocessed foods like rice, dried beans, potatoes, carrots, local fruits, etc. Ive been vegan for over 3 years now and im feeling as healthy as I have ever felt, as well as lifting the heaviest weights I ever lifted. Meta analyses (studies that contain tens of other studies) show that vegetarian diets reduce the risks of the most common diseases such as cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes, and vegans have an even lower risk than vegetarians. If you have more questions on this you can check nutrition facts on youtube, lots of good info on the subject.
One truly amazing thing about Hugo* is how open to discussion he is, and how he's not aggressively defensive at all. He's aware of his thinking being likely imperfect and he actually tries to come to logical, consistent conclusions.
It's not common and it's fantastic you stumbled upon him!
Yeah... this is how men are supposed to be... able to have a conversation and come away wiser and closer. 'Love all' means being honest, including with oneself.
*YOU SAID:* _"One truly amazing thing about Hugo* is how open to discussion he is, and how he's not aggressively defensive at all."_
Indeed. This is how every thinking man should approach issues that he has not investigated. But Hugo lacks the intellectual ability to immediately detect fraud and folly here. That is what accounts for his openness. When Joey began with the presupposition that animals have rights to be taken away, despite that the question before them is whether animals even have rights, Hugo should have detected the error and then mentioned it. And should Joey have persisted in the error, Hugo should have summarily dismissed Joey as a fraud.
@@oscarbenigsen4538 Nah, Hugo agreed they should have negative rights. It's not that uncommon to disagree with this claim, and I'm pretty sure if he hadn't he would've let Joey know. And walked away. And, maybe, just maybe, realized there was such an elephant in the room, as he did see many other minor details he found ungrounded or doubtful.
@@zethayn *YOU SAID:* _"Nah, Hugo agreed they should have negative rights."_
He only agreed by accepting the presupposition of rights, this,, without a logically established basis for it. Once he did that, fraudulence prevailed. Had I been there I would have simply said "you have given no compelling reason for the assumption that the animal has the right not to be turned into burgers." And the argument would have been over before Joey had gotten it out of his mouth.
@@oscarbenigsen4538 I don't know what you're playing but if both agree on that, the only discussion to be had within the framework is about further inconsistencies.
If you don't think animals (were also animals by the way) should have negative rights, I don't remember if it was here or in some other clip, but Joey does actually address the issue. It's not that hard. Give some arguments a try. Or just keep commenting randomly
Everyone should notice how much Joey has improved his argumentation skills over the years and realise we can all improve ours in the same manner :)
@@saywhat303 you wouldn’t want someone to protect you from being mauled alive by a lion? Ok…
@@JoeyCarbstrong Hmm good point.
@@saywhat303 Many people are guardians of non-human animals (we call them pets) and part of that guardianship is protecting them from harm, providing and paying for healthcare, and respect of their body when they die. We would also take any steps we could to prevent physical harm to them. Why when Joey referenced sheep rather than, say, a dog, do you have an issue with that principle?
@@saywhat303 No, you are misunderstanding him. In the video he referenced the sheep that he has guardianship over. Nothing in his reply to you extended that protection. You are putting your own interpretation on it. I suggest that you re-watch the video and listen carefully to what Joey says without placing your own bias on it.
@@saywhat303 We don't have get rid of all animal predators. We can create ecosystems where we feed lab-grown meat to predators, we could even create gazelle-like robots covered in this lab-grown meat. We could have drones and AI systems that take care of these ecosystems and make sure all sentient beings are living a good life.
Excellent conversation Joey. That dude is not stupid and he understood his own inconsistencies. This is how you peal off the layers of social conditioning and cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately it doesn't work for some people who tend to get defensive or argumentative. But well done Joey! 👏I enjoy watching these kind of conversations more than heated debates. 🙂
I agree!
I remember a first video I saw of Joey. I was already a vegan and he looked like one of fitness vegan guys that made me think this guy will be out of this in a couple of months. It was a video where he talked about muscles, fitness or something like that. All the same to me.
I am so happy I was so wrong. :) Also, the evolution of his activism is noticeable. He is getting better and better, exponentially. It is not a subtle change. Every video, he levels up couple of levels.
Also, I am ashamed to admit I was the person who did not believe in second chances. Listening to his story, struggle with addiction and listening to his stance now and parallels he made between his old and new life, made me change my position on that.
Totally agree!!!
What I love to see is people thinking he's just a "crazy vegan" and quickly realising he's incredibly knowledgeable and very effective at debate. He seems to have earned his intelligence through shear hard work. It's amazing.
Yay, well done Hugo. Joey, thanks for all you do for the innocent animals who have no voice 😄💚🙌👍
Lovely conversation. Thanks for the engaging back and forth as well as the thoughtful answers provided. I'll certainly add these ideas to my toolkit.
Great conversation & great ending ♥️🙌🥳
This guy is lovely. So open-minded and totally non-defensive. I often get annoyed watching these debates but this one was a joy to watch.
Joey has something to learn from him There
Thank you Joey. I'm in your debt.
Holy smokes dude. Have a good Day 👍
Don't know how many times I've put this out in the comments. But I feel this is important. I have chronic kidney disease. Have been on dialysis for 5 years, and this period included a failed transplant. I've been vegan for a year, and Joey, and lots of other activists, had a significant effect on my decision. The moment I realized this was a rights issue I turned vegan. I also have become a significantly kinder person, though what I define as my kind has broadened exponentially! I'm vegan for the animals, my health has nothing to do with it, and neither has my position ever affected my health. Thanks!
@@Akash_Vegan Have you tried contacting Dr. McDougall and have him help you go on the rice diet? Low protein is supposed to help people with kidney problems.
@@suicune2001 I'm a doctor with a post graduate degree in internal medicine. I also have great nutritionist friends. In my experience, I've thrived on a plant based diet. I managed to decrease the frequency of my dialysis by mindfully controlling protein intake. But, again my veganism has nothing to do with this. Any health condition can have optimal vegan or non vegan diet options.
@@Akash_Vegan Awesome. :) I hope you stay as healthy as possible.
This guy was actually alright. He was truly curious and wanting to understand your position and way of knowing. He did not try to come up with silly excuses for bad behaviors. He was not a troll carnist or idiot. He just truly wanted to learn more and had the ability to admit when he was wrong and wanting to rethink and even change his own position on things. This guy had humility which is required to change. CREDITS to this guy! This is rare and a good quality! I like him and I could become friends with him for these reasons. And as ALWAYS... WELL DONE JOEY! Great discussion!
What a thoroughly pleasant man !
Great debate,such a joy watching and listening to someone so open and intelligent as Hugo !
I hope he researches more and shares the information with friends and family.
As Joey said " can you morally justify not being vegan ? "
Once you know about the Animal Holocaust you can't un-know it !
THANK YOU Joey for waking people up,making them aware of the cruelty and death they are paying for when they could easily choose something else to eat.
So interesting how you convey the justice issue of animal rights, particularly in your recent videos. I’m really learning a lot listening to you, been vegan for 4 years and definitely now an animal rights advocate 💚
Same here!
But if you had to choose between eating a human animal or a non-human animal (such as a cow), which would you choose? If you choose the non-human animal, then your position is utterly bankrupt.
@@oscarbenigsen4538 why not just choose to eat neither? That is an option
@@Fffreakyyy You can make this choice and die. That would be consistent with the vegan view. It would be contrary to human reason, however.
You are great Joey. Thank you for what you are doing for the animals and the planet. You are a real guardian. :)
Somehow, I feel like Joey has recently taken his debating skills to another level. The fact that he focused on not getting derailed and go into actions and practicality before having resolved the principles first that should determine if animals should have rights or not, or working backwards to a hypothetical society were dogs are bred for their poop is brilliant!
Yes, it is fun to see him walk the talk.
Wtf Joey this was amazing, really great talk through. And he was so open and friendly. I feel like he really tried debunking himself and his ethical stand with that sheep scenario actually, pretty cool.
Hugo was intelligent and a real gentleman in this debate. He will only see and understand when he actually goes vegan.
Live and let live. Because we have high cognition, we should protect the rest.
For some people, all it takes is a few moments of reflection on something they hadn’t thought about before.
Well done Hugo: so refreshing to see a young open minded person who enjoys debating and reflection! Thank you Joey for your hard work and for challenging your debating skills with students of philosophy and similar 🎉 ❤
Structured hierarchy unique to humans??? Even an ant colony has a complex structure.
Not to mention bees! And fishes!
Great conversation, great work as always Joe 💪🏾🌱
I really like this argument against freeganism. I've been trying to sharpen mine. I think it comes down to protecting our own models of reality. It's like the difference between calling someone a slur out loud and calling them a slur in your head. The actual act of calling someone a slur in your head doesn't harm the person directly, but it seems to reinforce in your own mind that it's ok to mistreat them.
In the same way, eating a discarded egg seems to reinforce the idea in your head that birds are there to produce eggs for your consumption, and that leads to later mistreatment
Love this analogy, I'll borrow this one, if you don't mind.
Love from India, carbstrong you doing an amazing job!!! ,🙏🙏🙏 Going Vegan was the best decision of my life ❤❤❤❤
What an incredible debate YOU ARE SO GOOD AT SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE ANIMALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can be this good too y'all, keep at it, remember who we are doing it for
You’re really at another level now, this is impressive. I can see the influence of people like the Nutrivore, Ask Yourself and Dr Avi on you. Keep it up.
Yeah the speed at which he dropped that it's about sentience and not about animals, and then following up with a well executed NTT, all whilst staying laser-focused on the contention at hand and not letting himself get sidetracked really has me feel like one of those peeps personally coached him. But perhaps he was just paying close attention. Well done Joey!
Oh I got to the Xenomorph point; now it's getting a lil' obvious 😂
The sound and video has gotten so good on your videos! Keep it up, great debate!
I think this might possibly be your best debate video I've ever seen. Hats off, hands clapping. A veritable tour de force and lesson for anyone considering becoming an activist!! 🎩👏👏👏
Please respect Arabic poet "Al-Ma'arri" the first vegan... Even before pythagores
That was a great conversation Joey and Hugo... There's sooooo many delicious vegan options for any meal that you used to eat with meat!
By buying food from shop where sells meat you support this shop change my mind (You still have to eat to live and help animals)
Slaughterhouses are hell on earth. Go inside one and see for yourself and face what you are paying animals to be forced into and killed in there.
Most enjoyable, and inspirational debate… Thank you Joey, thank you Hugo ❤🌱🎉
11:06 Joey, that was amazing. I've watched a lot of vegan interviews with the public, but this moment was particularly impressive.
Great video as usual! I'd say animal eater though, not meat eater. I think it's more powerful. Humans don't just eat the meat/flesh of other animals, but what comes out of them, too.
Excellent debate.
Only one point near the end where I'm not sure I agree with Joey, or maybe misunderstood his view?
Around 20:15 they're discussing wild animals and prey/predators. Is Joey saying the rights of all prey should be protected? Or does he mean just protecting animals in his care?
If he's talking about all prey, than this isn't consistent with not being a hypocrite as of course predators need to eat to feed themselves and their families. In the wild there must be some balance or populations grow out of control and then decline again when resources are scarce.
The difference between what we do to animals, and the natural order is that in the wild, most hunts are unsuccessful (from the predators point of view), and predators tend to go for the old and sick individuals. At least it's a fair fight for both predator and prey. What we do by farming animals is not giving them any chance. From birth to slaughterhouse, their fate is sealed. 100% they will be killed, most when they have barely reached maturity, for example pigs at 6months old. They're still only babies.
Just because we are an intelligent and resourceful species, we shouldn't turn our efforts into harming non-human animals. Animal agriculture in general and it's progression into factory farming is one of the worst things humanity has ever done.
Also, protecting animal rights in the wild is such a grey area. What about the many many animals that are both predator and prey somewhere in the middle of the foodweb? What gives us the power to enforce such rights, or meddle in nature? I watched a few Humane Hancock debates but stopped following him when he started talking about these themes about humans stopping wild animals killing other animals.
Suffering, grief and loss is a part of life, for us and other species as well. It's sad, and of course we want to protect innocent beings from pain but sometimes we can't get in the way.
Joey would protect the hypothetical flock of sheep in his sanctuary from the wolves because he is their carer/guardian. They are part of his circle of care. But what about the wolves? Just an interesting thought. I love my dog because she's a member of my family. She is within my 'circle of care'. If a wolf tried to harm her of course I would protect her, no question. But I think, surely part of being vegan is seeing the world from the wolf's perspective? By that I mean empathy for others, their needs and suffering, joy, etc...
My love for my dog lead me to start thinking about other beautiful beings I've never met, who have the capacity to experience life just as she can but who are unable to due to us. The cows, pigs, chickens, fish, we kill everyday 😢 getting to know her also lead me to think about wild animals and the importance of their own bonds & connections with others, with their own families and social groups that have absolutely nothing to do with humans, but are just as important as our bonds. Their value for their own sake, not just value in our eyes from a human appreciation of the wild.
On his point about respecting the body, once that sheep in your care is dead, why not let the wolves scavenge? What would burying them achieve? Maybe just a ritual to help grieving process of those left behind, just as we need to do so for human people...but maybe it's time to let go....for humans and animals. Stop trying to protect ourselves from nature and natural processes so much?
I completely agree with your arguments. Wolves have been reintroduced in my country recently and as they are protected, it is a crime to kill them. But sheep farmers complain about their flocks getting attacked. Sheep have been selectively bred to be docile and meek. That is to their, and the farmer's demise. I guess the best way to deal with that is to prevent the wolves being able to get to the sheep in the first place. By building higher fences they can't jump (that's what the conservationists advise the farmers to do).
Now that more farmlands are being rewilded (given back to nature), we need to learn to deal with the consequences... dear and swines eating and destroying your veggie garden, wolves going after your sheep. Interesting to see how people suddenly see nature as 'annoying' instead of learning how to co-exist with wild animals.
Nice chat, I like your approach. Good luck Hugo, stick at it, you'll never look back :)
what an outstanding debate.. good luck to Hugo.. I love the way you keep on track Joey, offering to answer an additional query once the initial one is settled.. therefor never being sidetracked or distracted. thank you so much for all the work you are doing for the animals.
its amazing that people love meat 🥩 hamburger🍔
Hugo, if you see his , I wish you luck! I really do hope you go vegan!
We are dealing with matters of morality and legality. To compound the legality hurdles we have the economics which the legalities are based upon to overcome. To say veganism upsets the money changers in the temple. Jesus was safe as long as he remained outside of Jerusalem. Stay safe Joey. We need you to continue articulating basic principals of conscience. Usury of all forms is anathema to conscience. Capitalism is based in usury. The devil is your adversary.
Love Joey🙏🏽 I’m learning so much, what Pierre’s did years ago was so wrong but actually made me respect joe more for bettering himself
Seems like being smart and intellectually honest eventually leads to veganism (even though he had a generic position at first)
Yes, the only way to counter veganism is by intellectual dishonesty and Hugo never went there to his great credit.
No true Scotsman fallacy.
@@MustardSkaven Either you have no idea what the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy is or you posted this comment on the wrong thread 😂.
@@robsengahay5614 No true Scotsman fallacy.
"No True Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect their generalized statement from a falsifying counterexample by excluding the counterexample improperly."
"Vegans are smart and intellectually honest so you can't be smart or intellectually honest if you're not a vegan".
Exactly what happened here.
Great debate! While watching my three year old asked me “who is he?” I said his name is Joey Carbstrong and he is vegan. She got excited and said “he is vegan LIKE US!” We don’t have a lot of vegan people around us so it is so great to have a community online with such intelligent people to listen to! Thanks for this, Joey. 😊
I think that was a great move to initially sidestep the practical 'what happens to the cows if we all go vegan' - get to the root of the issue first
Hugo turned out to be a very smart open-minded dude. Awesome.
I would consider becoming vegan if I didn't have Crohn's Disease. It is not possible for me to have my nutritional needs med through a plant-only diet: while the causes of Crohn's are unknown, it is known that an individual with Crohn's should minimize their fruit and veg intake, and especially any plant matter that contains any significant amount of insoluble fibre, which is a shame because I love legumes, broccoli, many other veg, and in particular, fruit. I am told by my doctors constantly to consume more simple carbs and meat and minimize my fruit and veg intake. I like some others made the mistake of not listening in the past, which resulted in my immune system attacking my gastrointestinal system and me almost dying. Right now about 40% of my intestines are either not connected or removed, and I am one surgery away from requiring a feeding tube for life, which would severely degrade my quality of life.
It is disappointing because I don't think it would be hard for me to transition to a plant-based diet. As it stands, I mostly consume simple carbs, but it's not sufficient: my B12 levels were so low on my last blood panel that they were considered to be undetectable and my gastroenterologist is convinced that I have probably suffered permanent damage as a result, and I'm inclined to agree based on the symptoms I've experienced. I take a B12 shot every week and still, my levels are quite low.
Unfortunately, it's just not feasible for some of us to be vegan.
This was a good debate. I have a friend who is obnoxiously vegan and very misinformed on many points. She views veganism as a competition, essentially, and if even a molecule of any animal or animal product accidentally passes her lips, she goes to the extreme of feeling like she has betrayed her morals. She is difficult, to say the least, and a very aggressive, confrontational vegan who unfortunately probably drives people away from the cause rather than showing them how incredibly delicious and nutritious vegan food can be.
You are full of shit
So sorry you struggle with this horrible disease. Have you tried supplementing with complete nutrition solutions like Huel or Soylent? Would you be able to tolerate those? They are vegan, so using them would allow you to align your morals and your diet.
@@MSchipper I haven't, but I appreciate the suggestion and I'll check them out and see if anyone with Crohn's has experience with them. Thanks very much for the info!
Great discussion and a good ending. I got the feeling that Hugo was hearing some of these arguments for the first time and was open to listening and not being all defensive
I KNEW HUGO HAD A HEART AND WOULD COME TO THE RIGHT CHOICE< GOOD MAN, very good
By definition all life, even uni-cellular life is sentient :) Not in a sense we could comprehend. So absolutely everything we do or eat would play into the circle of life, deaths and all. Our true place in Nature, and also the least destructive one and the more productive one at the same time is tropical super-frugivores. We eat the part of the plant the plant offers, spit the seeds directly or we digest it with the help of bacteria in the absence of we would be dead, then excrete the seeds + fertilizer while traveling far enough to insure the best seeds spreading patterns. So everything from what enters our mouths to what exists our gut is the Nature's design to help tropical fruits spread and all life be in balance. We are in fact a condominium of bacteria both in and out, fully dependent on first the right climate then the fruits automatically present there (not apples, and pairs and the cold areas puny fruits). All living organisms are because all life started with bacteria and still depends on them. Bacteria / mitochondria are the mydiclorians of all life :) NO bacteria = no life. So we should not eat tropical fruits for pleasure or nutrition but be what the very bacteria in us expect us to be. Eating anything else, living anywhere else, thinking thus all sorts of stupid thoughts is just a recipe for continuous chained disasters = modern civilisation :) Obviously adminting we were wrong for millions of years is difficult, especially with a more twisted and clouded mind. But, if anything else all we have to do is forget about our future and just be totally honest about our babie's future. A heaven for babies = tropical fruit eden despite all of our "knowledge" and "know how" and "science" and "technology" etc. Nature will take care of the rest and we, the destroyed adults will just have to master the power to keep away :)
Why is it that Joey never argues with anyone who can truly debate? Here's how you topple the vegan saving animals notion. Vegans actually kill more animals being vegan than carnivores. You kill 5-10x more animals - rabbits, squirrels, rodents, dear, birds...all from digging up the ground and planting crops. More land is destroyed growing soy products than sustainably eating meat. Grass Fed beef is more nutrient dense and offers more protein/benefits then a strict veggie diet not to mention you kill less animals comparatively r pound. I think Joey's heart is in the right place but there's something called a food chain and if you want to thrive, it won't be happening on a strict vegan diet unless you're introducing a lot of supplements which btw so many animals are killed to create.
Joey, your debate skills have got so solid lately! I’m loving this content.
And it’s really nice to see a conversation like this - where the non-vegan is intellectually honest enough to engage with the conversation!
refreshing to c good hearted people. seems all to rare.
I enjoy hunting and fishing, i eat what i kill. I enjoy foraging for wild edibles including fruit, berries, leaves and mushrooms.
Im a healthy man and respect wildlife and the balance of good nutrition. Am i a bad person?
Whilst you've always been an incredible activist, Joey, your engagement in recent months and years with more rigorous philosophical nomenclature and concepts has amplified your effectiveness. I attribute much of this (in particular the Name The Trait argument which you run here) to Ask Yourself, but the overwhelming kudos must go to you. You now have a repertoire of questions, prompts and thoughts which allows you to engage wonderfully with everyone - from the ignorant, to the mis-informed, to the emotional, to the well-educated, to the philosophy nerd. Coupled with the reach you've built up over many years, I can say with confidence that you will go down as a legend in the fight for animal liberation. Whilst the animals may not be able to thank you for your service, we can. Thank you.
seconded
I completely agree with you. Joey Carbstrong's dedication to animal rights activism is admirable, and his recent focus on philosophical concepts has added a new dimension to his effectiveness as an advocate. It's clear that he's done a lot of work to develop a repertoire of questions and prompts that allow him to engage with people from a wide range of backgrounds and levels of understanding.
And his success in building a large following has given him a powerful platform to promote the cause of animal liberation. He's truly a force to be reckoned with, and I have no doubt that he will go down in history as a key figure in the fight for animal rights. We owe him a debt of gratitude for his tireless work on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves.
26:08 an example that can be confronting.. the person who wants to pay for children to be trafficked creates the demand for the product.. lol same with meat.. EQUALLY as morally reprehensible ..
Legendary discussion. Great work, Joey. Keep it up.
Be sane. Be decent. Be Vegan. SPEAK UP!!!
I am skeptical that going fully vegan really does have broad support from Cambridge University students.
Of course, the best vote is the one where people are voting with their wallets. I bet if the University provided both vegan and non-vegan options, the non-vegan options would be far more popular.
The big concern is that, as usual, a small group of loud activists has decided that they should decide these things for everybody.
The way I always answer the question "what would happen to all the animals if we went vegan overnight?" question is to say, that if we all truly went vegan, we would feel so guilty we could GLADLY pay for them to live out of the rest of their lives in comfort. They will and the means would suddenly be there, because we were all vegan. (Vegan btw)
Joey is so far superior than the rest of us humanoid misconceptions. We're so lucky to have him amongst us and to enlighten us about our flawed ways.
He did apear a little hyper though, reminded me of my drugged roommate back from college when his drugs wore out- he was always fun though
Nevertheless great interviewing skills
He admits he’s no biologist, and clearly doesn’t know anything about social animals besides humans, but then assumes only humans can care about principles and every other animal is “only about survival”? Why would you try to assert your guess as correct when you know and admit that it’s just a guess?
@Joey Carbstrong … more power to you 💪💪. Your videos were very inspiring & provided me the motivation to make a big lifestyle change. Been a vegan for over 3 years now and my only regret is for the lost years when I wasn’t a vegan.
According to some historical accounts, Pythagoras, the ancient Greek philosopher and mathematician, had a fear of beans. This fear, known as "favism," is a common phobia that some people have towards beans and other legumes.
There are different theories as to why Pythagoras had this fear of beans. One theory is that he believed beans to be associated with death and the underworld, and therefore considered them impure. Another theory suggests that Pythagoras may have been allergic to beans, and his aversion to them was based on his physical reaction to them.
Regardless of the reason, Pythagoras' fear of beans is well-documented in ancient sources, including the writings of the philosopher Porphyry, who claimed that Pythagoras warned his followers against eating beans and even prohibited them from growing in his community.
Joey’s approach has become impeccable. (always has been, but even better now) he’s combined his passion with a deep understanding of the philosophy. also, his interlocutor was a great listener. a rare quality in general. hopefully this guy will adopt veganism and pass it along to his friends/fam.
Does protecting wild animals (or the guarded sheep) from being eaten by other wild animals still count as negative rights? I mean, you need to do something to prevent that from happening instead of stop doing something. Also, dignity sounds like something more than just negative rights.
I wonder about protecting the lives of human bred animal species from naturally evolved animal species at the cost of the natural species' survival.
He can speak as much morals as hei wants. Im glad im no longer feeling guilty of what those people preach. Luckily i got out of the illution before it Was to late. The plant based diet ruined a lot of health for me. Now i only eat like my ancesters did and everything is in balance.
Joey, despite you killing it in your recent debates, I have always been impressed with your skills since you came on the scene. Cannot recall one bad video that gave the other side some indication they found the justification for not being vegan. I like the note taking, very cool. Amazing work as always.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I'm not sure if I agree with Joey on Eggs. For instance, if someone is homesteading, and the chickens live an amazing life until they die, then what's wrong with eating their eggs? Otherwise, their eggs are gonna go to waste.
But even our plant farming is killing millions and billions of animals a year.
and its a wonder why they think its okay to murder plants just because they dont feel pain. Thats discrimination.
@@ve_gan HOW DARE YOU discriminate plants for not having subjective experience. They are trying to live like everything else.
Hugo's a Boss
your debating skills are AMAZING, I love how much they improved over the years. GREAT JOB!
Against young ignorant students its not that hard...
@@bluemeister22 Arguing with trolls is also easy. Lol.🤓👌
@@chrissiehorsley304 Lets go then, first question, do you think morality is subjective?
@@bluemeister22 Is it morally right to take a life that wants to live?
Is it morally right to treat people and animals how we would like to be treated?🤓👌
@@chrissiehorsley304 Depens on the life, sentience is just an arbitrary line you draw. These animals wouldt exist without us, their main purpose in live is human consumption. Don't compare farm animals to humans.
your debate skills are so admirable joey, and it was refreshing to see how open-minded hugo was. keep fighting the good fight!!
Hello, 5 years vegan here . Still think local hunters need to control wild animal population. If you can touch on this topic that would be great .
As a meat eater, I do not value animals on the same level as a human beings.
And the vast majority of humans on this planet agree with that statement.
There is a reason if a story comes out on the new saying all the cows burned alive in a farm doesn’t get the same emotional reaction as if let’s say and sci-fi e shooter killed 3 kids at school.
Ultimately, these debates are west of times. If you’re a meat eater, just admit you don’t care about animals it’s easier and you can stay more consistent.
It's not that we want ani.als to have rights like driving voting, but free will, let's not violate animals' free will, including humans.
Fantastic. Great convo.
No yelling. No disputes.
No "plants feel pain" nonsense.
i love eating meat its soo damn good gonna have shit tons of chicken tomorrow mmmmMm
Hahahaha
Enjoy cancer. Oh, and thanks for helping the algorithm, uwu
As far as I am concerned, without the right to your own life you have no rights in your life, and for any other animal I would say the same thing.
As for animal rights we do things to animals that, if we did these same things to humans the public would be outraged and horrified.
Be cool to have someone force you to defend your positions rather than only tearing down theirs. Someone who's intelligent enough to do this as well
Hugo is a good soul. I am sure he'll go back and do his research and make the connection.
Joey if your a vegan you can't just pick and choose which animals to care for you should care for all and treat all living creatures the same
Nice, respectful intelligent debate. The meat eater was too quick to walk into the "name the trait" trap though :D
Pythagarus thought beams contained the souls of humans and didn't want to go into a bean feild due to superstition whilst fleeing those who were attacking his cult. His unwillingness to go into the fields cost him his life.
so according to you is keeping pets or using animals for daily tasks like commute or as guides is also bad and should be banned? because as far as i know they are enslaved and used as property.
I love this guy. He is a rare one.
I see Joey’s been taken in by Avi’s predator argument - it’s just sad. The guy sits here and goes on and on about rights violations then turns around and admits he’d have no issue with violating the animal predators life ie it’s right to eat what it does to survive. And yes, if you swapped out a human for the sheep I’d be saying the same thing - it’s a rights violation, so even if in practice I decided to save the human or sheep for any number of reasons, it would still not be a moral action. I think this is no where near as ridiculous as some of the reductios Joey now as to accept - one being that he should have no problem in principle with killing human hunters who kill animals only to eat them. Don’t be tricked into defending this nonsense, Joey!
When he said that being part of the human species is what gives humans these rights and not animals, you went with the argument about a humanoid. I would have gone down a slightly different route.
First of all, if only homo sapiens have these rights, would this gentleman be morally ok with neanderthals, denisovans and other highly intelligent species under the Homo genus who are NOT part of the human species being treated the same way we treat cows?
Further, the word "species" is not a strictly defined word. In GCSE & A level biology we are taught that "species" is a group of organisms that can interbreed to produce fertile off-spring. This is a simplistic definition, because there are humans who cannot interbreed because they carry particular gene varieties that would result in stillbirth, and also homo sapiens interbred with neanderthals even though the two are different species with a common ancestor.
So the word "species" is not black and white. In order to be used in a moral argument like this where to have rights you need to be part of the human species, you need to be able to be clearly define "human species". If you define that as Homo sapiens sapiens, then you run into the problem of being morally ok with neanderthals having no rights. But if you say that neanderthals have rights, then you are saying multiple species have rights, which means "species" is irrelevant when it comes to who has rights and who doesn't.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this Joey!
Neanderthals wouldn't have rights and we'd act upon them through a utilitarian mindset.
Neanderthals and Denisovans are also human. Human is a genus, not a species.
Better luck next time.
Fascinating facts at the end there. Anyone know where to find the Shakespeare poem?
Anyone remember the comedy character Tim Nice But Dim?
There are evolutionary benefits to looking after your own species, thats not a contradiction. Who or what is the objective moral judge marking down who has contradicted themselves? Who is the moral judge who we have to give justification to? As far as im aware, morals are societal, and being a pioneer of a 'moral' movement doesnt mean you are necessarily correct. I could say morally covid has as much right to live as us, I would be making a moral case according to myself but society would rightly reject it. Morals are decided by societys and there is no objective standard, unless you are religious
Looking after our own species is important evolutionarily, but are humans under threat? Are we acting in self defense when we breed animals into existence to kill them and eat their flesh? Regarding moral judge, you likely already agree that any behavior that involves a victim requires justification. Like if someone harmed you, you would want a reason for it -- something like self-defense or survival. What's our justification for harming animals? Covid is a virus, not a sentient being. If you watched the debate, you'll note that Joey is concerned with the rights of sentient beings.
Imagine someone oppsing cars in early 20th century and arguing what would happen to animals used in the transportation industry if cars are used.
Humans eat animals, animals also eat humans, humans also eat other humans as do animals joey.
#JoeyCarbstrong An question to you that I worry about everyone becoming Vegetarian or Vegan! A diet that includes meat eaters are becoming more processed since the 90's that has led to increased obesity, diabetes and heart disease and I want to know is it possible to become Vegan on a non processed diet and stay healthy? I am worried that people that become vegan won't be able to afford the non processed /non junk food especially if that is your only choice. Bill Gates is even looking into making fake meat using animals DNA that is linked to cancer. Humans need non processed foods, low sugar and a small amount of carbohydrates diets, it even reverses type 2 diabetes when the pyramid diet fails to help. I am not against Vegetarians or Vegans, it is just a fear of mine.
Processed foods are quite often more expensive. The cheapest foods I can find are staple unprocessed foods like rice, dried beans, potatoes, carrots, local fruits, etc. Ive been vegan for over 3 years now and im feeling as healthy as I have ever felt, as well as lifting the heaviest weights I ever lifted. Meta analyses (studies that contain tens of other studies) show that vegetarian diets reduce the risks of the most common diseases such as cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes, and vegans have an even lower risk than vegetarians. If you have more questions on this you can check nutrition facts on youtube, lots of good info on the subject.
What poem of Shakespeare is Joey talking about?
Destroying farms? How does this help anyone?
I think we should stop eating meat and start eating vegans ill get enough vegetables then
Isaac (ask yourself) would be proud of u in this one
This guy's never heard about chimp hierarchy. They're even tyrannical.
Animals can be tyrants, but there are also many examples of animals expressing altruism.