Thompson Grinder Restoration: Scraping the Table to the Bed with Lance Baltzley
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Thompson Grinder Restoration: Scraping the Table to the Bed with Lance Baltzley
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Hi Keith,
This brings back memories for me. I am 85 and back in the mid 1950's I served my time with H.W. Kearns Ltd near Manchester England, building horizontal boaring machines. My fist three years was spent hand scraping 40ft extra length beds which came to us direct from the plainers. We used the straight edge rubbing method with a compound we called red raddle. It was a mixture of machine oil and red lead made into a thick paste and applied with a rag. Our scrapers we made ourselves out of large bustard files which, after annealing, we would file out all the file marks before flaring out and tapering the cutting edgees and then finish them off on a grind stone, before tempering and hoing on an oil stone. These beds were monsters with huge wings of each side. Not to mention the tail stocks, head stocks and table assembly etc. All hand scraped. My wages back then were about £5_10s_6d for a 48 hour week. The part of the job I found satisfying was curling. (Applieing the diagonal and apposing "c" pattern designed to evenly distribute the oil over the machine bed serface). Thanks for taking the time to make this video. In enjoyed watching it.
Regards, Richard Court .
P.S. the reason the beds were not ground bot only plainer, (we were told) was because if the surface tension set up by grinding. It would cause the beds to twist when the clamps or magnets attaching the casting to the grinder were released.appart from that, a ground surface is much harder to scrape.
How very nice of Lance to show up and help you! It's certainly a bit table to do on your own.
Moving that table was definitely a two-man job.
Just think: every time you answer those repetitive questions, another group of new viewers learns something new. You are educating a whole generation to these practices. Kudos to Lance for being such a good friend and helping with the heavy lifting.
Two Biax scrapers on one job, that helps the timeline very well! Kudos to Lance for helping out a friend. I hope our paths cross someday, I’d like to meet him. Cheers from Florida’s Space Coast
Scraping is so cool. I’ve watched you for many years now and I’m always fascinated by the scraping content.
Hadn't watched your channel for a while - didn't recognize you at first! Looks like you got a handle on your T2D - good to see!
Always nice to see Lance, he knows everything about grinder/grinding and scraping.
Well done guys. 👍
That was great of Lance to get up so early and drive so far! Two fine craftsmen getting it done in good time.
Good morning Keith. Looking good. Great to see Lance again.
I really enjoy the much longer 30 minute + videos Keith. Ebay shows the Biax scrapers selling used for $1600 to $1800. Very pricey, but a necessary tool to bring equipment into tolerence.
In days of yore, this was done by hand. Modern tools might be nice to have and quicker, but for occasional use, doing a job by hand is still acceptable.
You can do it also with hand scraper.you can do a big experience so
Nice tag team on the grinder table. That looked like it scraped in really well. That capacity of grinder is going to be one hell of a shop addition! Keith, please take the following in the spirit it is given. I've work with overhead, heavy loads for the majority of my working life( I'm now retired) Cranes, helicopters, gantry, you name it. I can't possibly express how sketchy a practice, that simply draping an endless sling over on an open lift hook is. All it will take is for one of the wheels of your gantry crane to hit a small piece of debris on the floor, come to a sudden stop( or even decelerate substantially )and the load will swing in the direction of travel, the center of gravity will shift, and that sling will slip on the hook, and your load will upend in the blink of an eye! Even if you continue to use an open hook( it should have a gate on it ), please use two individual slings, so that they are trapped on the hook and can't flip the load, no matter what happens. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass here, just some well meaning advice. After having done thousands of lifts, and having the crap scared out of me a few times, I feel totally comfortable giving this advice. But, it is only right, that you do with it what you will.
Lance is a very good egg!!! He seems to help many people including Adam of Abom79. Thank you to you and lance for the great video Keith !!!
Mr. Rucker has gotten extremely efficient with that power scraper. So even. Far cry from 5 years ago or so.
Now imagine how long that would take by hand! o0
Outstanding job Keith.
Very nice of Lance to come and give you a hand with the scraping and moving that big table..
Definitely a two man job for sure.
This is going to be a very nice grinder.👍👍
Have a great day guys.
Great to see you and Lance working together to knock this job out in quick time.
Good to see Lance. I met him at the Summer Bash in 2019. One of the really nice guys. Thanks for sharing.
It's a pleasure watching two guys who know what they're doing and work well together!
Always good to have the help. I have never done scraping but I have learned so much about it that I could do it now.
Wow, what a treat to learn from professionals how this process is done. I’d like to try out a new “truism” if I may. It’s this; “Curiosity is the mother of learning!” I’ve got plenty of it. One more thing. Spray a little WD-40 on those precision flat stones. It won’t change the flatness but will float out the tiny metal particles and make them cut much better.
You both are just flexing on us pulling out not one, but TWO Biax power scrappers! Not to mention about $500 in precision ground stones…
Four hands scraping 😁 cool!
Nice to see Lance in your shop .
Thanks for sharing. My dad loves for me to help him with projects. Most times we don’t have to speak as we know what the other is working towards and just know what to do.
OK, so all surfaces are flat but how do you know they are co-linier & co-plainer?
You don't, but if you assume they were co-linear and co-planar from the factory, and the factory scrape marks are still in evidence, and the surfaces are still flat, it's probably safe to assume they're fine.
As the old saw goes, many hands make light work. Having someone to chat with while drudging makes the job go quicker, too.
Nice to have friends! I do metal working only under duress so never even knew scraping was a thing until I saw you do it, Keith. You ALMOST make me want to but I'll get over it. :)
A very interesting episode. I cannot imagine doing that .
Another great video-Thanks! Maybe it is time to treat yourself to an electric winch for the gantry (or maybe a viewer has an extra). It would be useful to be able to control height while looking closely at clearances. You could also keep the chain hoist on the gantry, as you might want to lift a large piece from each end independently.
Having just bought 5 gal. of hydraulic fluid for my backhoe, it was $80 out the door, that is $1000 of fluid for that machine. You have my sympathy.
Always good to have two men on a two-man job.
Very nice video.machine should be good another 75 years.good video as always.be safe 👍👍👍😎😎😎
Hi Keith, another great video but with the clearance issues behind the machine I kept asking myself why you couldn’t straddle the machine left to right with the gantry rather than front to back? I kept trying to see if there was an obstruction to the right of the machine but couldn’t see one in the video. I saw the spindle sticks out above where you’d ideally like to lift and place the table but you could still have placed the table to one side with the gantry straddling the machine. You could also have used a spreader beam to lift the table over the spindle with the straps vertical. Always hard to see when there is a good reason to do a thing a certain way but I’d be interested in your thought process as this was clearly quite a difficult lift.
Lance is a great person to work with - after you mentioned them (and several other RUclips creators also) I bought a set of his precision flat stones and they’re great. Can’t wait to get better use from them when I’m able to get out into my workshop.
Looking forward to seeing the machine in action and you recommissioning it. I’d love a surface grinder but don’t have the space or skills to use one so it’ll likely remain a pipe dream. Keep on inspiring us hobby machinists. Cheers, Nick
I had the same thought on turning the gantry 90°. It might have been tight to scape with the table in that direction but safer to move the table and position it.
Beautiful machine, my favorite grinders!
I got my precision stones from Lance, he has great stuff!
Can't add anything that others didn't already comment on, but scraping is not on my Bucket List with bad wrist, but sure enjoy watching you talented young bucks do it,,,hehe! That rolling host is worth it's weight in gold,,,Bear.
Thank goodness. Another scraping episode.
Good to see Lance! Been a while!
I wish Happy New Year to you and Lance and your families. Greetings from Germany.
looking good!
Sometimes things just work.....not often...lol
Looking forward to seeing who good this ole gal is
Thanks for the video and the importance of scraping
What the two of you have done. Is over and above 😅!
Hope you and yours are safe and no damage in your area!
Good to see Lance
How was parallelism on the table checked, if at all?
As always you make it very interesting
Hey Keith nice job to you both! I’d love to see you grind something on that machine just to show us how good it performs. Well done
Thank you Keith!
Thanks kieth for another great instructional video I don't want to tell you how to do things I just am going to suggest a few helpful things .I work alone a lot like you rigging parts odd shaped or not but if you put another chain fall and trolley on that gantry you could roll those parts without even setting them down till you have them oriented the way you want it helps them from banging around. You can't have enough picking eyes and shackles and straps.I have also many different spreader bars to help get around obstacles . I have two falls and trolleys on all my jib and gantry cranes. Thanks again for all the videos ed
That same method is used by Dave Engle at Engle's Coach Shop channel for handling 8 and 10 ft. wagon wheels. They're large, heavy, and awkward, much like a grinder table.
The way that he had it rigged, it is possible, unlikely but possible, that the strap could move through the chain hook and have 1 end drop and the other end rise. 2 chain falls and trolleys would prevent that.
Happy Monday morning Keith 😊
I understand how the master straight edge helps you make sure the two ways on the table are flat. But how do you ensure that they are parallel?
I was wondering the same thing myself. Seems like the scraping Keith and Lance did on the table could result in the front and back ways getting out of parallel.
Ah at last " muster time"..😅
Happy New year budy and grtz from the netherlands Johny geerts
Absolutely beautiful job guys!
Awesomeness Extreme!
The scraping job looks awesome! its gonna be slicker than a snail on a banana peel!
Happy New Year Nice Machine
Good morning.
Awesome as Always... You know its going to be a good vid when Lance is involved :)
Watching Keith show, i would feel confident scraping in metal surfaces as a novice machinist. Its great to see Lance make another appearance on the show. I think from memory the straight edges used in the process are also scraped in or are they machined ground. Can you use a machine ground straight edge or is it better to have a scraped straight edge. I asking as i need to get machined as i don't have access to large granite surface plates.
Happy New Year. I cannot express how helpful and interesting your channel is.
Most excellent.
Great video
Thank you for sharing👍
As always....great content!
Happy New Year! Good job!
Nice work 👍
Bobble level or eletronic level,also autocollimator and you never mistake about that
What type/brand of oil are you going to get for it? Very cool!
I guess this has been answered before, it seems that the rail under the table is quite short while the rail on the base is long, are they avoiding any rail overhang for a reason? Glad you had a nice surprise in the time it took.
For ultimate accuracy you need fully supported ways. The construction of this machine provides that because regardless of the table position it is always completely over the ways. Ways like a Bridgeport are prone to tipping and can cause accuracy issues particularly if the table is not loaded evenly with weight.
After you aer done do you then grind the top surface flat?
Great progress on this, can't wait to see the first job. By the way - I only had the option to DISLIKE. There was no LIKE option on this video
Hi Keith GOOD MRNING LOL
29:22 Did you say "stiction"? I like it. New word for my lingual arsenal. 😁
I first heard of it when I was working on 1/2" magnetic tape drives. The tape would get hot and get sticky if the tape was run quickly over the head. The stiction could cause tape breakages.
@@paulschroeter8051 I had heard it applied to motorcycle forks, between bronze guides and chrome plated tube during moments of high pressure, similar to the Blish principle. This was in an article interviewing an engineer from Showa or Honda. It's been a long time ago, lol.
They should have put the "dueling banjos" theme on while scraping.
So how much footage got edited out when you two started having sword fights with the scrapers? :D
(we're all just big kids at the end of it all!)
Keith/Lance, awesome to see tandem work on the subject! Do you have any speculation on the scale of potential error introduced from: different-person scraping, changing the reference from primary (straight edge) to secondary (table way), as well as the procedures for removing the reference from the target unequally (ie 19:30, having to hoist the table)? Do you think most of these just average out to inconsequential still? Most of the limited experience I have on the matter involves only solo work, however one expects that machine builders had tandem work occurring all the time. Thanks again for excellent insights!
So now if it is not 90 degree whit the spindle you can not side grinde whit it... wouldent be beter to check now scrape it in concomytanly?
I second this question. How was parallelism between the front and back table ways and squareness to the spindle preserved or ensured? Scraping the bed to the table absolutely would not correct if the front and back ways got out of parallel and/or out of square with the spindle. I don't understand...
@@tenringking that doesn’t matter.Because he will grinde the flat and paralele to the bottom of the wheel. Even if the spindle is tilted, doesn’t matter
Nice job, but 60 gallons of hydraulic fluid! Wow!
Keith; is there such a thing as a "V" way straight edge? Probably would need two, a positive "V" and a negative "V." Thanks for the video. Jon
There certainly is... if you make one! (but I'm thinking it would be a nightmare to grind and scape in!)
I really need to do the ways on my Atlas. Has anyone ever done that before with hand scraper? The Biax is very expensive.
There are videos of people hand scraping ways on their machines, also how to make hand scrapers. Using the just takes a little longer, good luck.
I have had a slow leak in the cylinders of the front end loader. Went to get hydraulic fluid and the prices had almost doubled from the previous year. I told the salesman that was enough to motivate me to rebuild the cylinders. And you have a dozen 5 gallon buckets to buy. 😢
Brandon say's the economy is the best it's ever been. 😂🤣
@@johnbaskett2309 the emperor Brandon has no clothes. I cannot understand why the administration says the robes are beautiful.
Couldn't even get hydraulic fluid recently, took 6 weeks to get 60 liters barrel delivered at work.
I work at a rental company with excavators, cherrypickers and such so we do use a fair bit of it.
My hydraulic man keeps telling me oil is cheaper than a new pump...
@@seapy2398, Sounds like a good salesman! Lol
Does the scraper move in and out or back and forth.
Has anyone heard of red lead? It was used as a contrast for scraping and would cut the glare, much like the yellow stuff they're using. It's an orange powder, mixed with oil into a hard paste, put in a cat food can, and lightly applied to the surface to be scraped with a felt pad. I still have some. I heard it's no longer available.
I’ve seen and used red lead paste and I’m sure it would do as good a job as it ever did. The word “lead” in the product will probably doom it forever. Some people get paranoid about certain products for no good reason.
Maybe turn your gantry the other way so you can move it with the trolley instead of trying to man handle the whole gantry around on the floor???
That's a pretty good idea.
👍
So what’s the final step when fully assembled? A full top of bed grind to baseline any lateral error from the two ways?
Install the magnetic chuck and grind the top of it flat.
No after the top of the bed is ground flat (in case you have a piece larger than the mag chuck and have to affix to the bed).
Then flip mag chuck over and skim the bottom.
Then flip over and bolt down mag chuck, and turn it on to dust the top of the chuck for final alignment.
@@RuthlessMindset68, Hopefully we get to see Keith do the whole process.
Rich would be sad you didn't have the table on three points.
I notice the hoist jerks when ever it’s lowered under load. Does any one know a fix for this? Mine does the same and I’d love to sort it if I can.
Excellent video. Just curious: given the unwieldiness of the table, would it have been acceptable to use the straightedge as the master for scraping the ways on the base since it was also the master for the table? I realize using the table is ideal, but as a practical matter would it work with the straightedge? Thank you.
The straightedge was too wide to fit in the V grove on the base.
No because the straightedge doesn't check for twist. It could be dead straight on all four tracks yet be sat on two opposite corners and rock a little.
@@seapy2398 That makes sense - thank you.
I'm no expert, but if the machine wasn't built that way, what makes anyone think scraping the ways would be an improvement?
Seems the original maker should have or would have done it if it were necessary.
I was thinking that if the ways we're in pretty gòod order they have reduced the life by a number of years with alĺ that scraping, a quick flaking for oiling purposes is another matter.
Keith said at the beginning of the video that he could see the original scrape marks so it sounds like it was done by the builder. Making a machine ways truly flat, even if it wasn’t done originally, can only make it track better so doing that definitely makes it better.
So how much does hydraulic fluid cost?
Chevron sells a 55 gallon drum for $1,175.00, and a 5 gallon bucket for $182.50.
@@Hoaxer51Two 55 gallon drums (110 gallons) don’t cost much more than 12 five gallon containers. (60 gallons)
Feel the burn...😂
На винт не стали тестировать ?
What were the reasons you did you not put Turcite on the ways?
👏
i nottice the gear assembly for the table is loose
Sinopec 55 gallon drum of Hydraulic oil.
Question, how do you know you’re keeping the V of the table at the correct angle?
I don't think the angle matters as long as the male and female surfaces match. The other bearing surface is flat so parallelism isn't a factor here. It also doesn't matter too much if there is a microscopic tilt from front to rear as the chuck will be ground true to the spindle.
@@nrml76 if I picture what you’re saying at an exaggerated angle, say 20° off from the flat way, it would obviously only touch on one side, am I correct?
small bits of metal being shaved of at high speed Lance says " I dont need no safety glasses"
It's amazing how many people think they don't need safety gear, I literally had to fight with the men that worked for me.
Keith never wears safety glasses just his prescription ones, better than nothing.
yes "PROS" dont need them. Just one time is all it takes. @@richb419
The small bits of metal stay close to where they’re scraped off. They don’t fly through the air like grinding grit.
How about a description of the tool that you are using. You are assuming that we all know what you have in your hands. You don't need to tell us three times that you are going to scrap just the details and the work as well most important the tool used for such a job.