I remember my drunk asf dad give me the exact same tirade under the Golden Gate Bridge when a regatta of ketches yawls and schooners came by. He gave me the exact same definition of each regarding the rudder post and misons. Spoken like a true sailor great video
To add... a couple of other advantages with the yawl rig... It will self steer at most reaching points of sail. Takes a little practice but if you get the boat balanced well you can lock the wheel and the mizzen will self steer the boat very reliably at a set angle to the wind. Does not consume your battery power like your autopilot does. In heavy winds with the mizzen and a very small amount of jib rolled out (roller furler) you can sail very comfortably and safely to windward in 30+ knots of breeze with little stress on the rig. Off the wind in heavy wind it is easy to reach hull speed with the mizzen and a little handkerchief of a jib rolled out. Very comfortable, safe, and easier on the rig. It is a very versatile rig. Offers lots of options for different conditions.
Re Schooners , the famous Schooner Bluenose out of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, Capt. Angus Walters was part owner and Captain. He said “ a schooner was the most beautiful thing ever invented by man that has a utilitarian purpose!”
There is always one isn't there... So here I am ;) I have a Macwester Wight, just 27 feet long. I'm told its a Ketch. But when I check the Mizzen mast, its way aft of the rudder post. So its properly a Yawl. Thanks for the definitive note that if it has the Tri-attic rigging, then it most certainly is a Ketch. I've checked and I do indeed have the Tri-attic steel rigging between both mast heads. So it definitely is a Ketch. Another 'give away' between the Yawl and Ketch is that a Yawl rig is completely independent of the main mast rigging. If it were a Ketch the back stay would be the Tri-attic stay and then down the back stays of the Mizzen. So I've checked and both masts have their own back stays - not one each, but one pair each !. So its definitely a Yawl. I rush off to find the nearest brick wall and bang my head several times against it. There, that feels better now. I think its a Yawl, All the literature on the Internet says its a Ketch rig, Oh I must add that your commentary on the necessity of 'clean air' for Cutter rigs misses the point. I'd always thought the Cutter rig was better to windward than one Jib or Genoa. The reason is the Slot Effect between the two sails, as indeed the Slot Effect is important between the Jib and Main Sail. Therefore the Cutter rig has two Slot Effect area's, that between the two fore sails, and the second between the rear most Jib and the Main Sail. The Slot further accelerates the air between the sails thus improving the low pressure side [if I remember right] of the main sail.
I own an F &C 44 ketch. It's a very useful sailing layout because I often drop the main if the wind gets up and the boat will self steer if set up and trimmed properly withe wind on or fwd of the beam.
I have a 1981 Pacific Seacraft 37 Yawl. I look forward to trying the racing sail setup you described and which I have never seen. I agree with your points about the use and value of the mizzen sail and would add the following: - Mizzen sail does actively power boat when sailing single handed with only the foresail and mizzen sail, and both are easy to handle - Mizzen mast is a great place to hang electronics, etc - When standing and active at the wheel in active waterways like NYC, the mizzen mast is nice to lean back into especially if padded - Mizzen sail expands the ability to confidently sail into a tight slip or mooring without an engine
I to love schooner's Because it's a schooner. I learned the difference between ketches and yawls from old sail magazines and books. Your the first person I've HEARD explain the difference. Thanx
Checkout this video of a 266ft Schooner being launched last week. I would like to see it when under sail.. . ruclips.net/video/iT9Sy_v3JD4/видео.html . .
This might have been mentioned already, but an important feature of a yawl mizzen sail is that it not only keeps a boat head to wind at anchor, but also when no anchor is deployed. One can heave to with just the mizzen set, and there will just be a small drift straight downwind. Very useful for the old fishermen to do their thing with nets and catches (in fact, I always thought that was why mizzens were "invented" in the first place?). A further use is you can actually use the drift and reverse a sailboat under mizzen only. Steering is quite effective on the rudder in that mode, just that it's reversed (port = starboard and vice versa)..
All kidding aside, there are two significant reasons why a cruising sailor might wish to consider a yawl rig particularly or a ketch generally. The proper way to think of the mizzen sail on a yawl is as a 'balancing sail,' a sail that allows you to balance the trim of the boat at minimal expense of windage. Even though the mizzen on a yawl is very small, typically about 15% of sail area, because it is placed so far aft it has a great deal of mechanical advantage. Thus under any heading other than to windward the mizzen keeps the helm balanced so that you don't need much helm input to stay on course, very advantageous over long voyages. For a cruising sailor this can be a significant advantage because allows you to install a smaller and less expensive auto-pilot, and generally saves wear and tear on your self-steering gear especially if you are using a servo-pendulum type of self-steering gear. Also, like a cutter rig, running 'jig and jigger' [foresail and mizzen only] keeps the center-of-effort of the rig low to the deck and centered near the center-of-lateral-resistance of the hull. Jony Pearce puts it like this, "Much as we enjoy the prettiness and practical aspects of our ketch, the ability to sail ‘jib and jigger’ outweighs all other benefits. For those lazy days when we can’t be bothered with the mainsail or when the wind is higher than for comfort we love to sail with just a foresail and mizzen sail. It does away with the big heavy flappy mainsail attached to a heavy boom crashing from side to side and leaves us with a beautifully balanced sail plan that we can easily control without leaving the cockpit..." For free I'll also mention that the mizzen mast can also serve as a more convenient alternative to the mainmast for mounting things like: radar, antennas, and wind generators, and can serve as an handy crane for your dinghy.
Very interesting; The boat I grew up with had a mast aft of the rudder post. so maybe it was a yawl instead of a ketch. It did have a boom at the stern but we did not have a name for it. It was designed to be a single handed around the world sailor. It was made of Pacific Coast gray fir in the 1930's. The deck was less that 2 feet above the waterline so there wer splash boards continuing back from the cabin to aft of the cockpit. My father the carpenter altered it later for a day sailor by removing the splash boards and doubling the size of the cockpit. A great innovation was available at that time, plastic plumbing, so he replaced the 1/2 inch copper cockpit drains with sink drains. P. S. The deck and cabin roof were painted canvas.
One glitch in the (correct) definition above-- at the turn of the 20c, you had dinghy-sized cat-yawls, gaff-rigged. The mizzen might be braced against the inside of the transom, and the rudder hung from the transom. So, a hair aft of the mizzen mast. As a Concordia Yawl owner, I can say that one superb value of the mizzen is that it does have a tiny bit of drive: just enough to balance lee helm. So a #3 genoa or a yankee and mizzen can take you most anywhere in any amount of breeze. I use a working jib mostly now for single-handing, and even that sails remarkably well without the main once you get 10 knots or more. Up to 30 knots, no problem. S&S just did a re-make of Stormy Weather, their famous yawl from the 20s. This was a sloop. If I were to order a second draft of the re-do, I'd ask them to make it yawl-rigged again. Just to make short-handed sailing, and being stuck in gale conditions, more agreeable. You'd still get most of the main mast height, to permit proper upwind sailing, and as big a gennaker as you have the stomach for raising.
The classic yawl sail, regardless of its name, does contribute to boat speed a little, and mostly because it takes the strain off of the rudder, and allows the rudder to not be cutting such a wide path thru the water, thus reducing the underwater resistance of the rudder... So it reduces ‘weather helm’ .... And I have often considered fitting/ using the entire mast boom and sail from a “laser” dingy as a yawl mast and sail......
I worked on finishing a superyacht which was ketch rigged with no triatic stay. Unfortunately, the boatbuilders' standard response to my "why is it like that" questions, was to mock me, so I never found out the reasoning. She's still going strong 23 years later though, so it seems to be working.
The triatic is not a hard and fast rule, it’s just something I have noticed which makes spotting a boat on the horizon and telling if it is a ketch or a yawl from a distance based on the presence or absence of the stay. Do you remember the name of the super yacht? It would be awesome to see pictures of your handiwork!
@@RiggingDoctor the yacht is called Mari-Cha III. I was just a very junior labourer, after she was already launched, I really can't take any credit. It was a summer job when I was a student. A fantastic experience though.
On small boats like Drascombe Luggers the mizzen actually helps balance the boat and does contribute to drive in strong breezes when you are just under jib and mizzen - adds a lot of versatility for reducing sail when reefing the main isn't enough. I imagine the same might apply to some larger boats?
Thanks for an excellent piece on Ketches and Yawls. Yawls are beautiful. I sailed a ketch rigged Nautical Development 56 from Connecticut to St Lucia many years ago. We got caught in a gale northeast of Bermuda and had to heave to. We backed a reefed foresail using the roller furling (it looked like the hood on a sweatshirt when we rolled it back out!) and flew a reefed mizzen to keep her stabilized just off the wind, just the way you described for stable anchoring in a yawl. The mizzen ripped at one point. It was much easier to bring everything back under control with the mizzen boom over the deck then it would have been with a yawl. We also flew a mizzen staysail on that trip. Wow!
Probably the one downside to the yawl mizzen is standing on a skinny afterdeck for any meaningful work. Luckily, the sail is so small and low that reefing will be less of a problem. And I suppose that putting some hardware on the end of the boom would make single-line reefing easy enough if you had to adjust to a real storm. For that, you'd need heavy fabric in addition to the full-length battens!
My 31 ft ketch has both a triatic stay and another backstay on the main in case we lose the mizzen. There is a single line that comes from the top of the main, then about a 1/3 of the way down splits and goes down to chainplates on either side of the cockpit. Also the stays on the mizzen are far enough forward it will freestand without the triatic. The triatic actually controls mizzen rake more than anything.
Check out the Gulfstar 50' Ketch, I have one and there is no Triadic. I thought your explanations were great. I enjoyed the video and thought it pretty darn educational.
I've got a gaff ketch, no triatic as the gaff would run foul of it. Best thing about the mizzen, is it's a pole to hang the mizzen staysail on. What a sail that is, pulls like nothing else. Will out perform the main sail. Enjoyable watch, thank you.
Nice series on sail plans of boats. But as for identifying a ketch over a yawl, the fiji ketch in 40 to 50 ft range have no triatic as do most Alden designed ketches. And that is just off the top of my head. I know there are a lot more
The definition Phil Bolger had for a yawl is that it has a mizzen that is intended for control reasons rather than propulsion ones. With my habit of trying to design mini ocean voyagers, I usually end up with a yawl. This is because I don't want a mast intruding into the cramped living area, which is in the middle of the boat, so I need some sort of mizzen to get decent balance. A large mizzen, such as for a ketch, would intrude into the aft end of the living space. So the yawl rig is chosen by default.
Many designers use that definition. John Harris of Chesapeake Light Craft, wrote an article on it in Small Craft Advisor where he too went with propulsion vs position. The problem I have with using mizzen position is that by that strict definition, any boat with a transom mounted rudder can never be a yawl.
@sailingspark9748 I agree completely. The mizzen on my Lola design is to be of very heavy cloth and is to be both flat cut and flat setting, even though it is big enough to classify my rig as a ketch rather than a yawl. The main purpose of this sail (despite its relatively large size) is balance rather than propulsion.
I have an old ketch and I think it's the bees knees. With Miz, main, stay, job and reefing I have seven gears to choose from which means plenty of opportunity to tweek. On most points Journeyman will steer herself. My masts are heavily raked which is fun going aloft but to go up wind I was go fore and aft as this worked better than main and jib as the main is forward of where it probably would be if it was a sloop so fore and aft gives me clean air on both jib and Miz and I can point to within 5deg but not at speed but in a blow I can't point high and in control. Fore and aft are also very good with light airs because of the clean air. Bean to aft quarter is all up. The heavy rake helps here as it will spill air when hit with gusts but the brown side is she want to round up so I can loose a lot of speed with the rudder trying to act as a trim tab as I hold course. Down wind is jib and stay which slightly lifts the bow when running. Ketches were a thing because back in the day masts were timber and they could only handle so much canvass so an extra stick means shorter masts but still good sail area which made for a better sea and foul weather boat "and no winches. Journeyman has a triatic to hold the mizzen up because there is no room for a jib stay because of the boom on the main and running stays to hold it back but my main still has a backstay, and running stays so lots of strings and things.
The reason why we have a ketch is because there are no production schooners in sizes between the Lazy Jack 32 and around 58 feet or so. I commissioned a custom schooner design from a noted designer, but he passed away before finishing the commission. (And if I ever do wind up with another schooner -- we had a small one that I built for some years -- I solemnly swear never to complain about her upwind performance. :-) )
Schooners are beautiful one day soon I am building a 50 foot wooden schooner two dipping lug sails. If you break up your sails you can have a bigger boat and unstayed masts. I like skipjack masts the first Americas cup boat America was a schooner by the way and gorgeous. A boat with both mast the same height also qualifies as a schooner. Take a look at Micheal Kasten's design Redpath, nice boat.
It was really fun to hear your description of schooner vs yawl. Here in Scandinavia there used to be schooners with two or three equally high masts. These were called eleven or one hundred and eleven schooners. These boats were gaff-rigged and somewhat jokingly called lean or oblique sailers because these boats leaned into the wind, where larger full-rigged ones sailed proudly upright in the wind.
Awesome guys ..... you have just made my explanation to the mrs. easier now that she has accepted sailing as part of our life . Keep up the good work fair winds always .
Well done. I've been sailing for a while now. When I think of a fast ketch, I think of Sir Peter on his amazing SteinLager2. Extremely fast and versatile. Although it didn't have the triatic stay, they knew how to pile on the sail area. When I think yawl, I think of my US Navy days when I got to sail on a Luder's 44' yawl. Splendid video. Thanks.
Agreed. Yawls like the one you showed are gorgeous looking. You are very young to have such good taste in boats. It would be interesting to see a video on what the stereo-typical well designed pretty boats look like vs just functional (ugly/modern)production boats. I think there are so many newbies to sailing, they have no idea what to look for.
Just discovered this brilliant channel! Really good to see correct definitions of rigs with enjoyable and clear explanations. I’ve been sailing on and off for over half a century but have only sailed a yawl (not on my own) a couple of times. We tried steering with the mizzen. Disaster! Might have been easier if the rudder had actually fallen off. Incidentally, I was told that yawl rig was developed in certain types of fishing craft, principally drifters, as it provided a steadying force whilst the mast was out of the way of the working area.
I wish I could either remember or figure out what style my parents’ 42’ boat was. They’ve since passed. Going off photos, there is no triadic stay, so I’m going with yawl. They cruised from Virginia to Florida and then from Florida down to the Caribbean and lived off various islands for 5 years. They sailed as far as Venezuela and back. What an adventure.
There is one other advantage of the Yawl, and to some extent the Ketch, and that is weather helm and trimming the sails to offset the pull to leeward when you have more sail area forward than aft. That is why I am considering one; because I am adding a bowsprit to a Dragon sloop and making it a Gaff rig cutter (or slutter if you will) but by adding the bowsprit and sails that far forward the yawl helps to offset that sail plan and gives me a shorter mast, more sails and similar sail area to a sloop, but more manageable. Since I am using a rudder and tiller it has to be a yawl, not a ketch.
Have you ever sailed on a tall ship, the one I was on had only three masts all F/A with Squares on the foremast. We used the mizzen to help us tack by bringing the mizzen into the wind which this helps to bring the stern around. You can do this on a ketch and a yawl. I think a yawl would work better and tack fast as it has the sail out the back more watch would give it more pressure on the back of the yacht .
The Core Sounds are cat-ketches with no stays and no jib. They're self tacking only requiring the helm to be pulled. Beautiful modern implementation of a classic East Coast style working boat, and fast too.
@@RiggingDoctor They Bandy Yachts from North Carolina designed the Core Sound 15, 17 and 20. Wonderful shallow drafting boats. Even their 20 has oar stations. They're somewhat of a coastal expedition boat.
The Ketch "Aquarius" by Royal Huisman doesn't have a triatic stay. You can find lots of footage of her on RUclips. Oh wait, is that the "superyacht" you were referring to?
Yes, that one I would call “super yacht” but the triatic is not a hard and fast rule. Just that it “tends” to work. The ultimate design comes from the naval architect who decides if it needs one or not.
Sailing lore! Always a fun subject....seems I read somewhere that the Yawl rig was something designed to beat some sort of racing rule....who knows. I think the mizzen on a Ketch does more to reduce the sail size on the main that a yawl would....one man can handle 400 sq feet well enough, keeping the main under that number is a good thing. My three mast Herreshoff schooner did just that, we only had the two of us on our passages and I had no trouble single-handing on short trips. Most epic trip, one week in the Westerlies in the Gulf of Alaska.....over 8 kts going to 8.5.....very nearly made my 200mile day. -Veteran '66-68
Dude that's crazy how much knowledge you got and understanding about this old boats ..I'm into simple and practice when it comes to boats. I'm learning this old technology I have a ketch..It's very interesting ...Can't have enough of it ..Thank you I'm learning the rigs and all..I can't otjt cuz of covid bit reading as much as I can..Thank you for the very well done clips..tc
This series of videos have been the most instructional sailing videos I've seen on RUclips. I never thought I'd see the day that I'd be able to tell the difference between Sloops, Cutters, Ketches & Yawls, etc. Thanks a bunch.
I'm just learning this stuff and I was under the impression that ketch rigging was now preferred and was best. Now I am learning more about the different rigs (thanks to good tutorials like yours) and I am now happily confused!
Ya I agree with you, the only way to call a yawl vs a ketch is by the rudder post. Somethings time will never change the definition of.... I feel. We have a yawl, a Crealock 37, and to top it off, she's a tiller too!! :) Thanks for the vid! Peace
Le mât de pavillon, is what we call the mast used to hang national flag in France, if I got your question right. Nice video. I'll have a look at your channel then.
Here's a conundrum we sail Cornish Pilot Gigs two masts main and much smaller mizzen, Lug rigged the only stay is on the main and changes sides with the lug. Mizzen mast is through the cox'n s seat stern hung rudder. Not considered a yawl.
My Tahiti Ketch did not have a stay between the main mast and the mizzenmast. It was, however, a gaff rigged main. On the other hand, my Choey Lee Offshore 40 was a yawl. Of the two rigs, the ketch is far more practical in blue water. Drop the main and the boat balances perfectly with jib and mizzen when the weather gets snotty. But the yawl sure was pretty at the dock.
I guess reinstalling even a small mizzen is really expensive...sail, sheets mast, spar, stays etc. all adds up. But I do love the look of the racing yawls from 80 years ago.
Our boat was once a yawl and I have often dreamed of putting the mizzen back on just because it looks prettier when anchored; but it’s a lot of work to look prettier when anchored!
I have never heard the triatic stay argument before. My ketch doesn't have a triatic stay, or any other stays for that matter. It doesn't have a head sail either. The Sea Pearl 21 features an unstayed cat-ketch rig and I've never heard anyone suggest it might be a yawl! I've long thought the difference was a question of whether the mizzen sail's purpose was to provide power (ketch) or just to assist with control (yawl). In any case, a mizzen sale is a very handy device.. The cat-ketch rig is not as efficient as a rig with a head sail when going to weather, but it is much easier to handle, especially for single handing. Downwind, it can easily be sailed "wing and wing," with the main and mizzen sails on opposite sides of the boat so both are in undisturbed air.
It’s just a quick and dirty way to spot a ketch vs yawl from a distance. The actual rule relies on the mizzen/rudder position but that’s hard to see when the boat is in the water and sailing.
Good explanation on identifying a Catch vs Yawl. However, from having sailed boats with mizzen masts, they do drastically change the handling the boat. They are useful actually.
We got the chance to sail on an Amel for a few weeks and the mizzen was very useful! Check out our first sail on it: ruclips.net/video/OQfXuui7oV8/видео.html
I have a ketch that has two sets of stays , the main to mizzen does have the triatic backstay but also has a backstay like a sloop from the mast head and is split midway down and goes to the chain plates of the mizzen
I think I need a "steering mizzen" for each end of my (yet to be built) pacific proa! ..that plus a small "positionable steering oar" should work much better than just a rather too large steering oar. Thanks bunches guys! Mahalo nui! :) 🤙
Hi m8, just found and subscribed to your chanel 💪 your explanations are great ⚔️ I don't wanna sound smart 🤓 but,just let you know I have a Ketch" which doesn't Not" have a stay between masts, it's a Wauquiez Amphitrite 43 ⛵😍❤️ Hope u guys are well, and hope to meet some day some where 🙏 all the best m8
I love ketches despite having to deal with an extra sail. Also typically ketches have lower mast heights that are more compatible with going under high bridges on the ICW. I have always heard the definition sounding like bum kin.
Have you seen the video of an 80 foot ketch going under bridges in the ICW? He has huge sacks of water that he swings out and pull the boat over to make him heel far enough to fit under the bridges. They are aptly named “boat balls” because you need big ones to pull that stunt!
@@RiggingDoctor I've never seen someone use a weight bag in real life, but I have seen some videos on RUclips. I would hate to have a halyard break while sporting that large a counterweight under a bridge. I'll look for the 80 ft ketch one.
Unfortunately not all ketches under 60' have a triatic stay. Until this year my Allied 36 ketch did not have a triatic. This year I rigged a dyneema triatic, but this is the first time since the boat was launched in '73 that is has had a triatic. My main has an independent split back stay, so until I rigged the triatic, I could have lost the mizzen with zero effect on the main. I have also sailed on a Hinckley 49 ketch where the spars were independently stayed (no triatic). In fact every ketch I have seen has a back stay on the main coming down to a triangle plate then split to pass the mizzen. Alternatively there are two backs. The triatic does not replace the back stay because mizzen masts seldom have a back stay. In my experience a triatic is more common on boats that sail off shore or stay in the water year round. The advantage of the triatic is that it greatly reduces pumping of the mizzen, which can be significant when beating into head seas. Here in Maine the vast majority of boats come out for the winter and the rig is taken down. In that case the triatic is much less common since properly rigging it requires that someone go up a mast to connect it = more expesive. Note: I rigged mine from a hard attachment at the top of the main, through a turning block at the top of the mizzen to an attachment point low on the mizzen. The reason to do it that way is that it can be rigged without going up a mast. The extra weight aloft is trivial since the stay dyneema. As far as sailing a split rig goes, there are several advantages to a split rig. As you mentioned, the individual sails are smaller. That is particularly true because the main is moved forward for the ketch and may also be for a yawl depending on mizzen placement. That makes the head sails smaller. The smaller head sails are often compensated for by increasing the overlap. For example, on my Allied I carry a 150% genoa. Yes that makes the boat harder to tack, but the drive is worth it. The big advantage is in heavier air where the main can be very deeply reefed or dropped and the boat can carry on under jib and mizzen. In fact, on my boat I can achieve hull speed without the main in anything over 12 knots or so. Raising the main does give some extra pointing effect (slot effect that is absent with the main down), but other than that the main is a superfluous sail in 12+ knots on my boat. The same is true to a lesser extent with a yawl. Finally, mizzen stay sails are light air sails. You don't want a big sail forward of a mizzen in heavier air because of the generally minimal back stay on most mizzens which relay on the mizzen sheet for a lot of their back staying. The only time that isn't the case is if the mizzen boom is short enough to allow a back stay, or the boat has a significant boomkin where a mizzen back stay can be attached without shortening the mizzen boom. On my ketch the mizzen boom actually overhangs the stern by about a foot so I would need about a 3+ foot boomkin to have a back stay. Yawls almost never have a back stay because the boom overhangs the stern significantly.
Hello, May I add that a triatic stay can take the mizzen down incase of a dismasting of the main-mast. On my contest 36 ketch, which is rather high-ratio sailplan and fin-keel, I sail better upwind in light or moderate winds with a flat overtrimmed mizzen. Downwind sailing in the trades is great without the mizzen and the mainmast on a position more foreward than on a sloop for better (self)-steering. Also not having swept-back spreaders is a bonus downwind.
I have 77 Allied 36 ketch. My mizzen boom stops at the rail and has a triatic stay I believe was that way new. Wouldn't have other than a ketch and was actually considering installing a staysail. Was offered as an option and already has the necessary bowsprit that puts the roller furled jib forward.
@@highseasdrifter7885 my Allied 36 is hull#8, It is 1972 before they added the sprit. My mizzen boom overhangs the stern by about 9-12". I have a mizzen stay sail and an asymetrical spinnaker but haven't used either for 20 years.
Thanks! I didn't know there was a new definition; although, I'd say a "small" vs "large" mizzen, leaves quite some room for ambiguity. Anyways, Cheers!
U r an informative & articulate genious. Prais u !!!! Now i know about yawl & ketch & benefits & detriments without question. Coincidentally in a few says im about to inspect a ketch for purchase !😂❤👏👏👍👍👍👍
I totally get it . No matter how big a sloop is on the horizon it like a boat whatever . Even a 30 ft ketch especially gaff rigged looks like an amazing pirate ship. Anyone who dousnt answer the question what 1st made you interested in sailboats with Black Beard is a liar . 😆 There a beautiful 1920s 38ft gaff rigged ketch on Apollo duck right now . I'd love it but I need bilge keels. The guy who got it ties it to a mooring post so it doesn't fall over at low tide. But I don't have access to one. He only wants £1200 for it. 😬
Interestingly, one of the more famous ketch's, Eilean, the 80'ish ketch designed by William Fife and made famous in the video "Rio" by Duran Duran, does not have a triatic stay in the classic definition. i.e. it does not have a stay running to the head of the mizzen. It does have one running fractionally though. It clearly is a ketch because the rudder post is aft of the mizzen. Personally I would say anybody calling a yawl a ketch or a ketch a yawl because of the size of the mizzen is just incorrect. I mean certainly there are grey areas as you point out (transom-hung rudders etc) but the definition has always been pretty clear. Not that it really matters, these names are just things we use to describe a certain type of boat in conversation. I would be impressed personally if a normal person off the street (who was not a kind of hardcore boat enthusiast) said "hey, look at that beautiful yawl" when it was really a ketch. I would think "Hey, this guy knows roughly what a yawl is! Cool!"
Can you do vid about schooners? Especially smaller ones up to 45ft (my license allows me to sail up to 59ft or 18m) they look gorgeous and I'm thinking about my future retirement-boat
I really enjoy this video series. I once read that the boom on the mizzen mast on a yawl ends aft of the transom/stern while the boom on the mizzen mast on a ketch ends before the transom/stern. Is this not always the case?
Hei kjekt å se at det er andre som seiler på RUclips med norsk flagg på hekken. Jeg slenger meg på som abonnent på kanalen din jeg.. jeg lurte på å kjøpe en viksund goldfish 31 som er en ketch ,,, jeg tror mesanbommen stakk ca en halv meter utfobi hekken.... Tror jeg
My Whitby 55 is clearly a ketch with the mizzen mast about 9 feet in front of the rudder post and the rudder is not stern hung, but yet the mizzen mast is not rigged with the main mast.
Wow, I didn't know your boat was a former Whitbread racer, that's pretty cool. I think a discussion on safety factor could be a cool idea, not many people actually know how it relates to boat design.
The nice thing with those kinds of ketches is if you drop a mast, the other one stays standing! It’s not an absolute, but just an easy way to differentiate them from a distance.
I emphatically agree that a schooner rig is the most visually appealing. Although I'll never own one, I sure would like to sail on a classic schooner someday. Herby, I'd side with Maddie on the topic of converting Wisdom back to a yawl rig...too costly to do it right, and tough to justify on a pragmatic basis (not to mention, more stuff to maintain or fail in the long run). It would be cool if you had any actual photos of her as originally rigged, though!
Hard to tell, but I think that is a green-cheeked conure. Might be a maroon-bellied, but I didn't get a good look. I have a 30-year-old Senegal, and she likes to hang around on my shoulders, too. As the helmsman of a Privateer 26 (heavy full-keel 26-foot ketch with a 6-foot bowsprit) for the past 25 years on a lake in central TX, I LOVE ketches! Not a hero upwind, but can hold her own with her handicap. Beam or broad reach, she's a real warrior, especially with the mizzen staysail pulling hard. In higher winds, with jib-and-mizzen (which you didn't mention), she can do her best while other boats are heading for the dock. With storm jib, double-reefed main, and mizzen, we've happily sailed her in 30+ mph winds. Now that my sailing buddy is firmly into older age, we're looking for a Core Sound 17 or 15 cat ketch, hopefully with a mizzen staysail. Your mast size and rudderpost definitions are good, but a ketch has a driving sail for a mizzen, while the mizzen on a yawl is most a trim tab or riding sail.
Hmmm. I have had a 39 ft canoe stern transom hung rudder mizzen mast ten feet forward of the stern for 25 years. It has no backstay, or triatic. It does of course have lower shrouds (one forward and one aft of the mast on the chainplates) but only by about 20 inches each way. Main mast is 45' and mizzen is 35'. Love it, but now not sure what i have...? What I would really like to know is why you never see running backstays on the mizzen for when you are running with the wind with the sheet and sail not acting as a backstay. Mine never fell down, but I often wondered about it. I have just replaced the old wooden (and rotten) mizzen and am now thinking of backstay options for this scenario? It would seem they are not necessary because one never sees them, but it does seem odd that the lower shrouds going only half way up the mast would take that much load safely. Any ideas on this? Thanks
Self steering using the yawl mizzen, for sheet to tilller on some points, or just balance. or as an actual wind vane seems possible. Simply as an air rudder, being well aft of the center of lateral resistance, it ought to b able to be trimmed to maintain a course.... There seems to be nothing written about this. Reading Slocum’s book about sailing around the world solo, he mentions adding a jigger to Spray in South America, but never a word about how or for what he uses it.... Thoughts?
Slocum emphasised the ability of Spray to sail a course with no one at the helm. That was due to mizzen trimming (yawl rig). Sir Francis Chichester also picked a yawl rig for the same reason on his solo non-stop circumnavigation. Trouble with modern self steering gears is they tend to break...
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The only thing wrong with this explanation is that we weren't sitting in a bay having this great conversation over a beer... Fascinating. Cheers.
I remember my drunk asf dad give me the exact same tirade under the Golden Gate Bridge when a regatta of ketches yawls and schooners came by. He gave me the exact same definition of each regarding the rudder post and misons. Spoken like a true sailor great video
To add... a couple of other advantages with the yawl rig...
It will self steer at most reaching points of sail. Takes a little practice but if you get the boat balanced well you can lock the wheel and the mizzen will self steer the boat very reliably at a set angle to the wind. Does not consume your battery power like your autopilot does.
In heavy winds with the mizzen and a very small amount of jib rolled out (roller furler) you can sail very comfortably and safely to windward in 30+ knots of breeze with little stress on the rig.
Off the wind in heavy wind it is easy to reach hull speed with the mizzen and a little handkerchief of a jib rolled out. Very comfortable, safe, and easier on the rig.
It is a very versatile rig. Offers lots of options for different conditions.
Do you feel a yawl does those things better than a ketch? And if so, is it because of mizzen size or placement? Or a combination of the two?
Dad claimed that the mizzen could power to the dock comfortably iifc
excelente explicacion !
Re Schooners , the famous Schooner Bluenose out of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, Capt. Angus Walters was part owner and Captain.
He said “ a schooner was the most beautiful thing ever invented by man that has a utilitarian purpose!”
There is always one isn't there... So here I am ;)
I have a Macwester Wight, just 27 feet long. I'm told its a Ketch.
But when I check the Mizzen mast, its way aft of the rudder post. So its properly a Yawl.
Thanks for the definitive note that if it has the Tri-attic rigging, then it most certainly is a Ketch.
I've checked and I do indeed have the Tri-attic steel rigging between both mast heads. So it definitely is a Ketch.
Another 'give away' between the Yawl and Ketch is that a Yawl rig is completely independent of the main mast rigging. If it were a Ketch the back stay would be the Tri-attic stay and then down the back stays of the Mizzen.
So I've checked and both masts have their own back stays - not one each, but one pair each !. So its definitely a Yawl.
I rush off to find the nearest brick wall and bang my head several times against it.
There, that feels better now.
I think its a Yawl,
All the literature on the Internet says its a Ketch rig,
Oh I must add that your commentary on the necessity of 'clean air' for Cutter rigs misses the point.
I'd always thought the Cutter rig was better to windward than one Jib or Genoa.
The reason is the Slot Effect between the two sails, as indeed the Slot Effect is important between the Jib and Main Sail. Therefore the Cutter rig has two Slot Effect area's, that between the two fore sails, and the second between the rear most Jib and the Main Sail. The Slot further accelerates the air between the sails thus improving the low pressure side [if I remember right] of the main sail.
Y'all did a good job 'splaining the Yawl
sorry, someone had to do it...
I've been Mizzen these videos. Ketch ya latter.
Dana Johnson ha ha ha ha ha
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
@@danajohnson3799 Nice... :)
I own an F &C 44 ketch. It's a very useful sailing layout because I often drop the main if the wind gets up and the boat will self steer if set up and trimmed properly withe wind on or fwd of the beam.
Ketches are amazingly resilient sail plans.
I have a 1981 Pacific Seacraft 37 Yawl. I look forward to trying the racing sail setup you described and which I have never seen. I agree with your points about the use and value of the mizzen sail and would add the following:
- Mizzen sail does actively power boat when sailing single handed with only the foresail and mizzen sail, and both are easy to handle
- Mizzen mast is a great place to hang electronics, etc
- When standing and active at the wheel in active waterways like NYC, the mizzen mast is nice to lean back into especially if padded
- Mizzen sail expands the ability to confidently sail into a tight slip or mooring without an engine
Very cool insight on the mizzen!
Your boat is timeless and beautiful :)
Took me til about 2:18 to notice the bird. Completely caught me by surprise! Great info thanks for the video! 🤣
I to love schooner's
Because it's a schooner.
I learned the difference between ketches and yawls from old sail magazines and books. Your the first person I've HEARD explain the difference. Thanx
+Darnell Johnson 👍
Checkout this video of a 266ft Schooner being launched last week. I would like to see it when under sail..
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ruclips.net/video/iT9Sy_v3JD4/видео.html
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This might have been mentioned already, but an important feature of a yawl mizzen sail is that it not only keeps a boat head to wind at anchor, but also when no anchor is deployed. One can heave to with just the mizzen set, and there will just be a small drift straight downwind. Very useful for the old fishermen to do their thing with nets and catches (in fact, I always thought that was why mizzens were "invented" in the first place?). A further use is you can actually use the drift and reverse a sailboat under mizzen only. Steering is quite effective on the rudder in that mode, just that it's reversed (port = starboard and vice versa)..
Very cool historical info. Everything on a boat serves a purpose, just sometimes the purpose is glossed over by blue blazers with gold buttons.
All kidding aside, there are two significant reasons why a cruising sailor might wish to consider a yawl rig particularly or a ketch generally.
The proper way to think of the mizzen sail on a yawl is as a 'balancing sail,' a sail that allows you to balance the trim of the boat at minimal expense of windage. Even though the mizzen on a yawl is very small, typically about 15% of sail area, because it is placed so far aft it has a great deal of mechanical advantage. Thus under any heading other than to windward the mizzen keeps the helm balanced so that you don't need much helm input to stay on course, very advantageous over long voyages. For a cruising sailor this can be a significant advantage because allows you to install a smaller and less expensive auto-pilot, and generally saves wear and tear on your self-steering gear especially if you are using a servo-pendulum type of self-steering gear. Also, like a cutter rig, running 'jig and jigger' [foresail and mizzen only] keeps the center-of-effort of the rig low to the deck and centered near the center-of-lateral-resistance of the hull.
Jony Pearce puts it like this, "Much as we enjoy the prettiness and practical aspects of our ketch, the ability to sail ‘jib and jigger’ outweighs all other benefits. For those lazy days when we can’t be bothered with the mainsail or when the wind is higher than for comfort we love to sail with just a foresail and mizzen sail. It does away with the big heavy flappy mainsail attached to a heavy boom crashing from side to side and leaves us with a beautifully balanced sail plan that we can easily control without leaving the cockpit..."
For free I'll also mention that the mizzen mast can also serve as a more convenient alternative to the mainmast for mounting things like: radar, antennas, and wind generators, and can serve as an handy crane for your dinghy.
Very interesting; The boat I grew up with had a mast aft of the rudder post. so maybe it was a yawl instead of a ketch. It did have a boom at the stern but we did not have a name for it. It was designed to be a single handed around the world sailor. It was made of Pacific Coast gray fir in the 1930's. The deck was less that 2 feet above the waterline so there wer splash boards continuing back from the cabin to aft of the cockpit. My father the carpenter altered it later for a day sailor by removing the splash boards and doubling the size of the cockpit. A great innovation was available at that time, plastic plumbing, so he replaced the 1/2 inch copper cockpit drains with sink drains. P. S. The deck and cabin roof were painted canvas.
One glitch in the (correct) definition above-- at the turn of the 20c, you had dinghy-sized cat-yawls, gaff-rigged. The mizzen might be braced against the inside of the transom, and the rudder hung from the transom. So, a hair aft of the mizzen mast.
As a Concordia Yawl owner, I can say that one superb value of the mizzen is that it does have a tiny bit of drive: just enough to balance lee helm. So a #3 genoa or a yankee and mizzen can take you most anywhere in any amount of breeze. I use a working jib mostly now for single-handing, and even that sails remarkably well without the main once you get 10 knots or more. Up to 30 knots, no problem.
S&S just did a re-make of Stormy Weather, their famous yawl from the 20s. This was a sloop. If I were to order a second draft of the re-do, I'd ask them to make it yawl-rigged again. Just to make short-handed sailing, and being stuck in gale conditions, more agreeable. You'd still get most of the main mast height, to permit proper upwind sailing, and as big a gennaker as you have the stomach for raising.
The classic yawl sail, regardless of its name, does contribute to boat speed a little, and mostly because it takes the strain off of the rudder, and allows the rudder to not be cutting such a wide path thru the water, thus reducing the underwater resistance of the rudder...
So it reduces ‘weather helm’ ....
And I have often considered fitting/ using the entire mast boom and sail from a “laser” dingy as a yawl mast and sail......
That's really neat! I'm totally new to sailing, and just sailed my buddy's small Ketch last weekend. The rudder pressed on me fairly hard at times.
That is strange...my ketch's mizzen increases weather helm if anything because it pushes the back of the boat downwind more.
I worked on finishing a superyacht which was ketch rigged with no triatic stay.
Unfortunately, the boatbuilders' standard response to my "why is it like that" questions, was to mock me, so I never found out the reasoning.
She's still going strong 23 years later though, so it seems to be working.
The triatic is not a hard and fast rule, it’s just something I have noticed which makes spotting a boat on the horizon and telling if it is a ketch or a yawl from a distance based on the presence or absence of the stay.
Do you remember the name of the super yacht? It would be awesome to see pictures of your handiwork!
@@RiggingDoctor the yacht is called Mari-Cha III.
I was just a very junior labourer, after she was already launched, I really can't take any credit. It was a summer job when I was a student. A fantastic experience though.
On small boats like Drascombe Luggers the mizzen actually helps balance the boat and does contribute to drive in strong breezes when you are just under jib and mizzen - adds a lot of versatility for reducing sail when reefing the main isn't enough. I imagine the same might apply to some larger boats?
Do they ever make yawl mizzens thay go all the way down to yhe rudder skeg? Would such a design be helpful in the age of orcas attacking rudders?
Thanks for an excellent piece on Ketches and Yawls. Yawls are beautiful. I sailed a ketch rigged Nautical Development 56 from Connecticut to St Lucia many years ago. We got caught in a gale northeast of Bermuda and had to heave to. We backed a reefed foresail using the roller furling (it looked like the hood on a sweatshirt when we rolled it back out!) and flew a reefed mizzen to keep her stabilized just off the wind, just the way you described for stable anchoring in a yawl. The mizzen ripped at one point. It was much easier to bring everything back under control with the mizzen boom over the deck then it would have been with a yawl. We also flew a mizzen staysail on that trip. Wow!
That was a very educational trip! You got to do a bit of everything 😎
Probably the one downside to the yawl mizzen is standing on a skinny afterdeck for any meaningful work. Luckily, the sail is so small and low that reefing will be less of a problem. And I suppose that putting some hardware on the end of the boom would make single-line reefing easy enough if you had to adjust to a real storm. For that, you'd need heavy fabric in addition to the full-length battens!
Good job clearly explaining the differences... 2 thumbs up...
Thanks!
My 31 ft ketch has both a triatic stay and another backstay on the main in case we lose the mizzen. There is a single line that comes from the top of the main, then about a 1/3 of the way down splits and goes down to chainplates on either side of the cockpit.
Also the stays on the mizzen are far enough forward it will freestand without the triatic. The triatic actually controls mizzen rake more than anything.
Check out the Gulfstar 50' Ketch, I have one and there is no Triadic. I thought your explanations were great. I enjoyed the video and thought it pretty darn educational.
Good to know!
It’s not a hard rule, but it helps out most of the time :)
I've got a gaff ketch, no triatic as the gaff would run foul of it. Best thing about the mizzen, is it's a pole to hang the mizzen staysail on. What a sail that is, pulls like nothing else. Will out perform the main sail. Enjoyable watch, thank you.
That’s really awesome! Ketch rigs really are the most versatile setups.
Nice series on sail plans of boats. But as for identifying a ketch over a yawl, the fiji ketch in 40 to 50 ft range have no triatic as do most Alden designed ketches. And that is just off the top of my head. I know there are a lot more
Thanks. I'm researching what I want to get and was interested in a Ketch. This helped me understand what it entails exactly.
The definition Phil Bolger had for a yawl is that it has a mizzen that is intended for control reasons rather than propulsion ones.
With my habit of trying to design mini ocean voyagers, I usually end up with a yawl.
This is because I don't want a mast intruding into the cramped living area, which is in the middle of the boat, so I need some sort of mizzen to get decent balance. A large mizzen, such as for a ketch, would intrude into the aft end of the living space. So the yawl rig is chosen by default.
Many designers use that definition. John Harris of Chesapeake Light Craft, wrote an article on it in Small Craft Advisor where he too went with propulsion vs position. The problem I have with using mizzen position is that by that strict definition, any boat with a transom mounted rudder can never be a yawl.
@sailingspark9748
I agree completely. The mizzen on my Lola design is to be of very heavy cloth and is to be both flat cut and flat setting, even though it is big enough to classify my rig as a ketch rather than a yawl.
The main purpose of this sail (despite its relatively large size) is balance rather than propulsion.
I have an old ketch and I think it's the bees knees. With Miz, main, stay, job and reefing I have seven gears to choose from which means plenty of opportunity to tweek. On most points Journeyman will steer herself. My masts are heavily raked which is fun going aloft but to go up wind I was go fore and aft as this worked better than main and jib as the main is forward of where it probably would be if it was a sloop so fore and aft gives me clean air on both jib and Miz and I can point to within 5deg but not at speed but in a blow I can't point high and in control. Fore and aft are also very good with light airs because of the clean air. Bean to aft quarter is all up. The heavy rake helps here as it will spill air when hit with gusts but the brown side is she want to round up so I can loose a lot of speed with the rudder trying to act as a trim tab as I hold course. Down wind is jib and stay which slightly lifts the bow when running. Ketches were a thing because back in the day masts were timber and they could only handle so much canvass so an extra stick means shorter masts but still good sail area which made for a better sea and foul weather boat "and no winches.
Journeyman has a triatic to hold the mizzen up because there is no room for a jib stay because of the boom on the main and running stays to hold it back but my main still has a backstay, and running stays so lots of strings and things.
Journeyman is a gorgeous ketch! I love the tanbark sails 😎
The reason why we have a ketch is because there are no production schooners in sizes between the Lazy Jack 32 and around 58 feet or so. I commissioned a custom schooner design from a noted designer, but he passed away before finishing the commission. (And if I ever do wind up with another schooner -- we had a small one that I built for some years -- I solemnly swear never to complain about her upwind performance. :-) )
Schooners are beautiful one day soon I am building a 50 foot wooden schooner two dipping lug sails. If you break up your sails you can have a bigger boat and unstayed masts. I like skipjack masts the first Americas cup boat America was a schooner by the way and gorgeous. A boat with both mast the same height also qualifies as a schooner. Take a look at Micheal Kasten's design Redpath, nice boat.
It was really fun to hear your description of schooner vs yawl. Here in Scandinavia there used to be schooners with two or three equally high masts. These were called eleven or one hundred and eleven schooners. These boats were gaff-rigged and somewhat jokingly called lean or oblique sailers because these boats leaned into the wind, where larger full-rigged ones sailed proudly upright in the wind.
I love the description of 11 or 111 schooners!
Awesome guys ..... you have just made my explanation to the mrs. easier now that she has accepted sailing as part of our life . Keep up the good work fair winds always .
Well done. I've been sailing for a while now. When I think of a fast ketch, I think of Sir Peter on his amazing SteinLager2. Extremely fast and versatile. Although it didn't have the triatic stay, they knew how to pile on the sail area. When I think yawl, I think of my US Navy days when I got to sail on a Luder's 44' yawl. Splendid video. Thanks.
Those Luders are gorgeous!
Thx for doing these Herb !! they have illuminated the grey areas for me for sure , I am a big fan of double enders
Agreed. Yawls like the one you showed are gorgeous looking. You are very young to have such good taste in boats. It would be interesting to see a video on what the stereo-typical well designed pretty boats look like vs just functional (ugly/modern)production boats. I think there are so many newbies to sailing, they have no idea what to look for.
Y'all enlightened me on yawls!
Just discovered this brilliant channel! Really good to see correct definitions of rigs with enjoyable and clear explanations. I’ve been sailing on and off for over half a century but have only sailed a yawl (not on my own) a couple of times. We tried steering with the mizzen. Disaster! Might have been easier if the rudder had actually fallen off.
Incidentally, I was told that yawl rig was developed in certain types of fishing craft, principally drifters, as it provided a steadying force whilst the mast was out of the way of the working area.
Thanks you, and thanks for historical info as well
perfect video for getting right to the topic with nice attractive relevant setting.
Loved this video, got all the information I needed. Clear, engaging and enjoyable! Cheers mate
One explanation for a yawl mizzen was to counter balance a large genoa. Your explanation makes a lot of sense though.
Best explanation I've seen yet. Great job!
I wish I could either remember or figure out what style my parents’ 42’ boat was. They’ve since passed. Going off photos, there is no triadic stay, so I’m going with yawl. They cruised from Virginia to Florida and then from Florida down to the Caribbean and lived off various islands for 5 years. They sailed as far as Venezuela and back. What an adventure.
One of the best channels on RUclips! Thanks for all you do! 😎👌
Wow, thanks! 😊
Gran explicacion Doctor !!!!!! los videos tecnicos son increibles felicitaciones !!!! un gran saludo toda la tripulacion desde latitud 34 s. Argentina
There is one other advantage of the Yawl, and to some extent the Ketch, and that is weather helm and trimming the sails to offset the pull to leeward when you have more sail area forward than aft. That is why I am considering one; because I am adding a bowsprit to a Dragon sloop and making it a Gaff rig cutter (or slutter if you will) but by adding the bowsprit and sails that far forward the yawl helps to offset that sail plan and gives me a shorter mast, more sails and similar sail area to a sloop, but more manageable. Since I am using a rudder and tiller it has to be a yawl, not a ketch.
That will be a gorgeous boat when you are finished! Would you mind sending me pictures of it along the way? My email is riggingdr@gmail.com
Have you ever sailed on a tall ship, the one I was on had only three masts all F/A with Squares on the foremast.
We used the mizzen to help us tack by bringing the mizzen into the wind which this helps to bring the stern around.
You can do this on a ketch and a yawl. I think a yawl would work better and tack fast as it has the sail out the back more watch would give it more pressure on the back of the yacht .
The Core Sounds are cat-ketches with no stays and no jib. They're self tacking only requiring the helm to be pulled. Beautiful modern implementation of a classic East Coast style working boat, and fast too.
I’ll have to check them out!
@@RiggingDoctor They Bandy Yachts from North Carolina designed the Core Sound 15, 17 and 20. Wonderful shallow drafting boats. Even their 20 has oar stations.
They're somewhat of a coastal expedition boat.
Great info.
Yawl mizzen is also good for 'mounting a radar' :-)
I was watching Following the Boat & they prefer a Ketch for “Blue Water” sailing, especially the setup “Jib & Jigger”
The Ketch "Aquarius" by Royal Huisman doesn't have a triatic stay. You can find lots of footage of her on RUclips. Oh wait, is that the "superyacht" you were referring to?
Yes, that one I would call “super yacht” but the triatic is not a hard and fast rule. Just that it “tends” to work. The ultimate design comes from the naval architect who decides if it needs one or not.
Wow, you really lived up to your name with this video!
Pronounced "Boom Kin" in New England. Great job, nice video.
Sailing lore! Always a fun subject....seems I read somewhere that the Yawl rig was something designed to beat some sort of racing rule....who knows.
I think the mizzen on a Ketch does more to reduce the sail size on the main that a yawl would....one man can handle 400 sq feet well enough, keeping the main under that number is a good thing. My three mast Herreshoff schooner did just that, we only had the two of us on our passages and I had no trouble single-handing on short trips. Most epic trip, one week in the Westerlies in the Gulf of Alaska.....over 8 kts going to 8.5.....very nearly made my 200mile day.
-Veteran '66-68
That’s amazing! Are there any pictures of your schooner online? I would love to see them.
Dude that's crazy how much knowledge you got and understanding about this old boats ..I'm into simple and practice when it comes to boats. I'm learning this old technology I have a ketch..It's very interesting ...Can't have enough of it ..Thank you I'm learning the rigs and all..I can't otjt cuz of covid bit reading as much as I can..Thank you for the very well done clips..tc
It’s smart of you to spend this time away from your boat doing research! You’ll be a very informed sailor.
This series of videos have been the most instructional sailing videos I've seen on RUclips. I never thought I'd see the day that I'd be able to tell the difference between Sloops, Cutters, Ketches & Yawls, etc. Thanks a bunch.
I'm just learning this stuff and I was under the impression that ketch rigging was now preferred and was best. Now I am learning more about the different rigs (thanks to good tutorials like yours) and I am now happily confused!
Ketch rigs have long been preferred for blue water cruising, and for very good reasons!
Also helps with weather helm off wind. A bumpkin is from Nebraska.
Thanks!
Ya I agree with you, the only way to call a yawl vs a ketch is by the rudder post. Somethings time will never change the definition of.... I feel. We have a yawl, a Crealock 37, and to top it off, she's a tiller too!! :) Thanks for the vid! Peace
Le mât de pavillon, is what we call the mast used to hang national flag in France, if I got your question right. Nice video. I'll have a look at your channel then.
Yawls are great. You can steer with mizzen. You have an emergency mast in case of loosing the main mast. It easy to hang a hammock. They look pretty.
They really are gorgeous!
Here's a conundrum we sail Cornish Pilot Gigs two masts main and much smaller mizzen, Lug rigged the only stay is on the main and changes sides with the lug. Mizzen mast is through the cox'n s seat stern hung rudder. Not considered a yawl.
Thanks it yawl make sense now, ketche you next time..... Just couldn't help myself. Great video,,,
My Tahiti Ketch did not have a stay between the main mast and the mizzenmast. It was, however, a gaff rigged main. On the other hand, my Choey Lee Offshore 40 was a yawl. Of the two rigs, the ketch is far more practical in blue water. Drop the main and the boat balances perfectly with jib and mizzen when the weather gets snotty. But the yawl sure was pretty at the dock.
You summed up the main difference between a ketch and a yawl. One is useful and one is pretty.
I guess reinstalling even a small mizzen is really expensive...sail, sheets mast, spar, stays etc. all adds up. But I do love the look of the racing yawls from 80 years ago.
Our boat was once a yawl and I have often dreamed of putting the mizzen back on just because it looks prettier when anchored; but it’s a lot of work to look prettier when anchored!
I have never heard the triatic stay argument before. My ketch doesn't have a triatic stay, or any other stays for that matter. It doesn't have a head sail either. The Sea Pearl 21 features an unstayed cat-ketch rig and I've never heard anyone suggest it might be a yawl!
I've long thought the difference was a question of whether the mizzen sail's purpose was to provide power (ketch) or just to assist with control (yawl).
In any case, a mizzen sale is a very handy device.. The cat-ketch rig is not as efficient as a rig with a head sail when going to weather, but it is much easier to handle, especially for single handing. Downwind, it can easily be sailed "wing and wing," with the main and mizzen sails on opposite sides of the boat so both are in undisturbed air.
It’s just a quick and dirty way to spot a ketch vs yawl from a distance. The actual rule relies on the mizzen/rudder position but that’s hard to see when the boat is in the water and sailing.
Super definition, and clear out all the questions.
Good explanation on identifying a Catch vs Yawl. However, from having sailed boats with mizzen masts, they do drastically change the handling the boat. They are useful actually.
We got the chance to sail on an Amel for a few weeks and the mizzen was very useful! Check out our first sail on it: ruclips.net/video/OQfXuui7oV8/видео.html
I have a ketch that has two sets of stays , the main to mizzen does have the triatic backstay but also has a backstay like a sloop from the mast head and is split midway down and goes to the chain plates of the mizzen
That’s a nice setup! Lots of adjustability and redundancy.
I think I need a "steering mizzen" for each end of my (yet to be built) pacific proa!
..that plus a small "positionable steering oar" should work much better than just a rather too large steering oar.
Thanks bunches guys! Mahalo nui! :) 🤙
Hi m8, just found and subscribed to your chanel 💪 your explanations are great ⚔️
I don't wanna sound smart 🤓 but,just let you know I have a Ketch" which doesn't Not" have a stay between masts, it's a Wauquiez Amphitrite 43 ⛵😍❤️
Hope u guys are well, and hope to meet some day some where 🙏 all the best m8
I've been sailing for 62 years, and it's always been 'boomkin'. Ketch Yawl later.
I've only got 59 years experience. Let's play together sometime. What do you say?
I love ketches despite having to deal with an extra sail. Also typically ketches have lower mast heights that are more compatible with going under high bridges on the ICW. I have always heard the definition sounding like bum kin.
Have you seen the video of an 80 foot ketch going under bridges in the ICW?
He has huge sacks of water that he swings out and pull the boat over to make him heel far enough to fit under the bridges.
They are aptly named “boat balls” because you need big ones to pull that stunt!
@@RiggingDoctor I've never seen someone use a weight bag in real life, but I have seen some videos on RUclips. I would hate to have a halyard break while sporting that large a counterweight under a bridge. I'll look for the 80 ft ketch one.
Unfortunately not all ketches under 60' have a triatic stay. Until this year my Allied 36 ketch did not have a triatic. This year I rigged a dyneema triatic, but this is the first time since the boat was launched in '73 that is has had a triatic. My main has an independent split back stay, so until I rigged the triatic, I could have lost the mizzen with zero effect on the main. I have also sailed on a Hinckley 49 ketch where the spars were independently stayed (no triatic). In fact every ketch I have seen has a back stay on the main coming down to a triangle plate then split to pass the mizzen. Alternatively there are two backs. The triatic does not replace the back stay because mizzen masts seldom have a back stay. In my experience a triatic is more common on boats that sail off shore or stay in the water year round. The advantage of the triatic is that it greatly reduces pumping of the mizzen, which can be significant when beating into head seas. Here in Maine the vast majority of boats come out for the winter and the rig is taken down. In that case the triatic is much less common since properly rigging it requires that someone go up a mast to connect it = more expesive. Note: I rigged mine from a hard attachment at the top of the main, through a turning block at the top of the mizzen to an attachment point low on the mizzen. The reason to do it that way is that it can be rigged without going up a mast. The extra weight aloft is trivial since the stay dyneema.
As far as sailing a split rig goes, there are several advantages to a split rig. As you mentioned, the individual sails are smaller. That is particularly true because the main is moved forward for the ketch and may also be for a yawl depending on mizzen placement. That makes the head sails smaller. The smaller head sails are often compensated for by increasing the overlap. For example, on my Allied I carry a 150% genoa. Yes that makes the boat harder to tack, but the drive is worth it. The big advantage is in heavier air where the main can be very deeply reefed or dropped and the boat can carry on under jib and mizzen. In fact, on my boat I can achieve hull speed without the main in anything over 12 knots or so. Raising the main does give some extra pointing effect (slot effect that is absent with the main down), but other than that the main is a superfluous sail in 12+ knots on my boat. The same is true to a lesser extent with a yawl. Finally, mizzen stay sails are light air sails. You don't want a big sail forward of a mizzen in heavier air because of the generally minimal back stay on most mizzens which relay on the mizzen sheet for a lot of their back staying. The only time that isn't the case is if the mizzen boom is short enough to allow a back stay, or the boat has a significant boomkin where a mizzen back stay can be attached without shortening the mizzen boom. On my ketch the mizzen boom actually overhangs the stern by about a foot so I would need about a 3+ foot boomkin to have a back stay. Yawls almost never have a back stay because the boom overhangs the stern significantly.
The main main on my Pearson 365 has a split back stay and a triatic that attaches to the mizzen.
Hello, May I add that a triatic stay can take the mizzen down incase of a
dismasting of the main-mast.
On my contest 36 ketch, which is rather high-ratio sailplan and fin-keel, I sail
better upwind in light or moderate winds with a flat overtrimmed mizzen.
Downwind sailing in the trades is great without the mizzen and the
mainmast on a position more foreward than on a sloop for better (self)-steering.
Also not having swept-back spreaders is a bonus downwind.
I have 77 Allied 36 ketch. My mizzen boom stops at the rail and has a triatic stay I believe was that way new. Wouldn't have other than a ketch and was actually considering installing a staysail. Was offered as an option and already has the necessary bowsprit that puts the roller furled jib forward.
@@highseasdrifter7885 my Allied 36 is hull#8, It is 1972 before they added the sprit. My mizzen boom overhangs the stern by about 9-12". I have a mizzen stay sail and an asymetrical spinnaker but haven't used either for 20 years.
Thanks! I didn't know there was a new definition; although, I'd say a "small" vs "large" mizzen, leaves quite some room for ambiguity. Anyways, Cheers!
U r an informative & articulate genious. Prais u !!!! Now i know about yawl & ketch & benefits & detriments without question. Coincidentally in a few says im about to inspect a ketch for purchase !😂❤👏👏👍👍👍👍
Another way of looking at it is yawl = predominantly balancing sail and a ketch= predominantly driving sail.
From Australia don’t know how other Aussie pronounce it but iv always called in a boom Kin
Yep, prounciation will depend on whether you're from down under, or North America, or the UK, or South Africa, ect...
Camper and Nicholson 39 is a ketch rig with mizzenmast independent rigging...no triatic. They call it ketch and mizzen if in front of skeg hung rudder
I totally get it . No matter how big a sloop is on the horizon it like a boat whatever . Even a 30 ft ketch especially gaff rigged looks like an amazing pirate ship.
Anyone who dousnt answer the question what 1st made you interested in sailboats with Black Beard is a liar . 😆
There a beautiful 1920s 38ft gaff rigged ketch on Apollo duck right now . I'd love it but I need bilge keels. The guy who got it ties it to a mooring post so it doesn't fall over at low tide.
But I don't have access to one. He only wants £1200 for it. 😬
Interestingly, one of the more famous ketch's, Eilean, the 80'ish ketch designed by William Fife and made famous in the video "Rio" by Duran Duran, does not have a triatic stay in the classic definition. i.e. it does not have a stay running to the head of the mizzen. It does have one running fractionally though. It clearly is a ketch because the rudder post is aft of the mizzen. Personally I would say anybody calling a yawl a ketch or a ketch a yawl because of the size of the mizzen is just incorrect. I mean certainly there are grey areas as you point out (transom-hung rudders etc) but the definition has always been pretty clear. Not that it really matters, these names are just things we use to describe a certain type of boat in conversation. I would be impressed personally if a normal person off the street (who was not a kind of hardcore boat enthusiast) said "hey, look at that beautiful yawl" when it was really a ketch. I would think "Hey, this guy knows roughly what a yawl is! Cool!"
Can you do vid about schooners? Especially smaller ones up to 45ft (my license allows me to sail up to 59ft or 18m) they look gorgeous and I'm thinking about my future retirement-boat
I really enjoy this video series. I once read that the boom on the mizzen mast on a yawl ends aft of the transom/stern while the boom on the mizzen mast on a ketch ends before the transom/stern. Is this not always the case?
Hei kjekt å se at det er andre som seiler på RUclips med norsk flagg på hekken. Jeg slenger meg på som abonnent på kanalen din jeg.. jeg lurte på å kjøpe en viksund goldfish 31 som er en ketch ,,, jeg tror mesanbommen stakk ca en halv meter utfobi hekken.... Tror jeg
My Whitby 55 is clearly a ketch with the mizzen mast about 9 feet in front of the rudder post and the rudder is not stern hung, but yet the mizzen mast is not rigged with the main mast.
The actual definition: The aft sail on a yawl is a balancing sail, the aft sail on a ketch is a driving sail that may also provides some balancing.
That’s a good point
Thanks for good explanations in this video😀
Great video!!Thank you!Love it!
Thank you Herbie!!
Does a yawl still need wind vane steering?
A lot of sailors use the mizzen as their air rudder and don’t need much else
Wow, I didn't know your boat was a former Whitbread racer, that's pretty cool.
I think a discussion on safety factor could be a cool idea, not many people actually know how it relates to boat design.
Ben Kaminsky Catamaran Review that’s a really good topic!
For you, I have a Westerly Pentland ketch without a triatic stay
The nice thing with those kinds of ketches is if you drop a mast, the other one stays standing! It’s not an absolute, but just an easy way to differentiate them from a distance.
I emphatically agree that a schooner rig is the most visually appealing. Although I'll never own one, I sure would like to sail on a classic schooner someday.
Herby, I'd side with Maddie on the topic of converting Wisdom back to a yawl rig...too costly to do it right, and tough to justify on a pragmatic basis (not to mention, more stuff to maintain or fail in the long run). It would be cool if you had any actual photos of her as originally rigged, though!
Absolutely agree...schooner is the MOST beautiful of all sailing yachts!!
Hard to tell, but I think that is a green-cheeked conure. Might be a maroon-bellied, but I didn't get a good look. I have a 30-year-old Senegal, and she likes to hang around on my shoulders, too. As the helmsman of a Privateer 26 (heavy full-keel 26-foot ketch with a 6-foot bowsprit) for the past 25 years on a lake in central TX, I LOVE ketches! Not a hero upwind, but can hold her own with her handicap. Beam or broad reach, she's a real warrior, especially with the mizzen staysail pulling hard. In higher winds, with jib-and-mizzen (which you didn't mention), she can do her best while other boats are heading for the dock. With storm jib, double-reefed main, and mizzen, we've happily sailed her in 30+ mph winds. Now that my sailing buddy is firmly into older age, we're looking for a Core Sound 17 or 15 cat ketch, hopefully with a mizzen staysail. Your mast size and rudderpost definitions are good, but a ketch has a driving sail for a mizzen, while the mizzen on a yawl is most a trim tab or riding sail.
I like the distinction of driving sail vs balancing sail. That really does sum it up nicely!
Also, she is a green cheek Conure. We now have a Green Wing Macaw and a Blue and Gold Macaw
I wonder if you could have a cutter rig on the main, then the cheat rig on the yawl mizzen. That's a lot of sail area.
On the plans for my boat, a ketch;
The Tristay is optional.
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
Hmmm. I have had a 39 ft canoe stern transom hung rudder mizzen mast ten feet forward of the stern for 25 years. It has no backstay, or triatic. It does of course have lower shrouds (one forward and one aft of the mast on the chainplates) but only by about 20 inches each way. Main mast is 45' and mizzen is 35'. Love it, but now not sure what i have...?
What I would really like to know is why you never see running backstays on the mizzen for when you are running with the wind with the sheet and sail not acting as a backstay. Mine never fell down, but I often wondered about it. I have just replaced the old wooden (and rotten) mizzen and am now thinking of backstay options for this scenario? It would seem they are not necessary because one never sees them, but it does seem odd that the lower shrouds going only half way up the mast would take that much load safely.
Any ideas on this?
Thanks
Self steering using the yawl mizzen, for sheet to tilller on some points, or just balance. or as an actual wind vane seems possible. Simply as an air rudder, being well aft of the center of lateral resistance, it ought to b able to be trimmed to maintain a course.... There seems to be nothing written about this. Reading Slocum’s book about sailing around the world solo, he mentions adding a jigger to Spray in South America, but never a word about how or for what he uses it.... Thoughts?
Slocum emphasised the ability of Spray to sail a course with no one at the helm. That was due to mizzen trimming (yawl rig). Sir Francis Chichester also picked a yawl rig for the same reason on his solo non-stop circumnavigation. Trouble with modern self steering gears is they tend to break...
Many thanks for these videos...I'm learning masses of stuff....great.
Who changed the definition of ketch vs yawl? Fair winds. Gil, and the crew of Celtic Lady Seawind II 68 Ketch
You're wrong about "No one makes Schooners anymore"
Gannon and Benjamin Boatyard in Martha's Vineyard still makes Schooners and Restores them too!
Wonderful news!
That's a lot of explaining! I just watched the "Good Bad and Ugly" and your plack is still up at Staniel cay!
Can you send me the link? I want to see it :)
@@RiggingDoctor Sailing Good, Bad, and Ugly
Found it! I didn’t know if it was an older video buried deeply in their channel :P
We have to go back and freshen the paint in it ;)