43. From Tana'im to Amoraim (Jewish History Lab)
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- A brief overview of the transition period from Tana'im to Amora'im, after the two Roman-Jewish wars until the codification of the Mishnah.
Recommended readings:
Gedaliah Alon, The Jews in their Land in the Talmudic Age www.hup.harvar...
Reference to the National Geographic Podcast on the Tsunami of 115:
www.nationalge...
Interested in studying more deeply with our Membership perks?
Join our learning community of students, researchers and colleagues: / @henryabramsonphd
Thank you, Dr. Abramson. I really enjoyed this lesson. I'm intrigued by Queen Helen. I also really appreciate the bibliographical reference and the amount of detail you were able to unpack in less than 20 minutes.
Glad it was helpful!
When you see us spending less than the full time viewing your video, it doesn’t mean we saw only part. It might be we are viewing 1.25 or even 1.50 speed.
Sometimes Imview part before going to the office and part after returning. You might see two partial views.
Hey, just enjoy. I am too busy researching and writing to pay that much attention to the analytics.
I am really enjoying your lectures and am pleased to see your attention to various debates or evidence of contradicting opinions in Jewish history. I have read about such a debate over the importance of a Council of Jamnia (Jebneh?) in regard to the Canon of the Hebrew Bible. It seems that it has been discredited by most Hebrew scholars. Yet, in some sources I have read mention of Beth Shammai and Beth Hillel in its regard . I notice that you do not mention this supposed Council in your lecture. At the same time I have researched the making of The Septuagint and its importance in its time. It seems that it contained books which the eventual canon of the Hebrew Biblical Books eliminated. When and how was the Canon determined? Also, was the Septuagint discarded as being insignificant in the choices of Biblical texts that were chosen?
כל הכבוד!!
I absolutely love your shiurim! Thank you so much for sharing.
Enjoy in good health!
Thanks for another video allowing others to gain.
My pleasure!
I have an idea that R' Eliezer would not change his position even at the cost of excommunication because he refused to teach anything he didn't learn from his teachers, cf. _Sukkah_ 27b-28a. This also explains _Avos_ ch. 2 and the difference between a waterproof cistern and a strengthening spring, the latter which will eventually outweigh the former.
Interesting observation.
Thank you for sharing.
My pleasure!
To me, it is significant that Eliezer (אליעזר) shows his power and connection to truth through destructive, supernatural acts rooted nevertheless in the powers of nature. It's never argued that he is, like the Wizard of Oz, somehow fraudulent or not really powerful, but the others nevertheless stick to their commitment to rational, deliberative proceedings in establishing the public law of Israel. It's similar to the Eumenides of Aeschylus (Αἰσχύλος), in which the Furies - some of the oldest supernatural beings in Greek mythology, predating the Olympian Gods, among them Zeus - are asked to set aside their prior role as vengeful deities and abide by the new judicial system established by Athena, Zeus's daughter. They, too, represent a chthonic power connected to a traditional notion of law and justice. It’s noteworthy that in both stories, neither representative of the old ways is powerless or phony. They are acknowledged to be powerful and veridical. Yet, something is wrong with their way -- something that means it must be abandoned.
Interesting thoughts
Wow, (for me) a lot of great subject information!
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@HenryAbramsonPhD Yes sir, did further reading!
thanks henry for the show i wish you the best,this new lockdown im going through makes me feel uncomfortable anyway ill keep my mind occupied thanks for the good program judiasm really changed with the lost of the temple in70ce
Stay well!
The first Tzumami was in the time of Enosh .
“And also afterward: Although they had seen the destructief of the generation of Enosh, when the ocean rose up and inundated a third of the world, the generation of the Flood did not humble themselves to learn from them. “- [from Mechilta Yithro, Massechta Bachodesh 6; Sifrei Ekev 743]
(Rashi Genesis 6:4)
According to the Midrash there were two tsunamis, although the period of when it happened is not specified.
אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר בֶּן מְנַחֵם וַהֲלוֹא מִקְרָא מָלֵא הוּא (עמוס ה, ח): הַקּוֹרֵא לְמֵי הַיָּם וַיִּשְׁפְּכֵם עַל פְּנֵי הָאָרֶץ ה' שְׁמוֹ, אֶתְמְהָא, כְּזֶה שֶׁהוּא שׁוֹפֵךְ מִלְּמַעְלָן לְמַטָּן. שְׁנֵי פְּעָמִים כְּתִיב הַקּוֹרֵא לְמֵי הַיָּם, כְּנֶגֶד שְׁנֵי פְּעָמִים שֶׁעָלָה הַיָּם וְהֵצִיף אֶת הָעוֹלָם. וְעַד הֵיכָן עָלָה בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה, וְעַד הֵיכָן עָלָה בַּשְּׁנִיָּה, רַבִּי יוּדָן וְרַבִּי אַבָּהוּ וְרַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר בְּשֵׁם רַבִּי חֲנִינָא, בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה עָלָה עַד עַכּוֹ וְעַד יָפוֹ, וּבַשְּׁנִיָּה עָלָה עַד כֵּפֵי בַּרְבַּרִיאָה. רַבִּי חֲנַנְיָה וְרַבִּי אַחָא בְּשֵׁם רַבִּי חֲנִינָא, בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה עַד כֵּפֵי בַּרְבַּרִיאָה, וּבַשְּׁנִיָּה עַד עַכּוֹ וְעַד יָפוֹ, הֲדָא הוּא דִכְתִיב (איוב לח, יא): וָאֹמַר עַד פֹּה תָבוֹא וְלֹא תֹסִיף וּפֹא יָשִׁית בִּגְאוֹן גַּלֶּיךָ. עַד פֹּה תָבוֹא וְלֹא תֹסִיף, עַד עַכּוֹ תָבוֹא וְלֹא תֹסִיף. וּפֹא יָשִׁית בִּגְאוֹן גַּלֶּיךָ, בְּיָפוֹ יָשִׁית בִּגְאוֹן גַּלֶּיךָ. רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בְּשֵׁם רַבִּי חֲנִינָא אָמַר בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה עָלָה עַד קַלַבְּרִיאָה, וּבַשְּׁנִיָּה עַד כֵּפֵי בַּרְבַּרִיאָה.
מדרש רבא כ״ג
See also Yerushalmi Shekalim 17
According to The commentaries there once it occurred in the generation of Enosh and once in the generation of the Tower of Babel.
Hmm
*All ancient Muslims historians agree that a perturbation happened to the history of Bani Israel after the period of Alexander the Great because they abandoned the lunar calendar and adopted the "Greek" solar calendar, they were influenced by the Hellenic culture and they had no political influence or historical works except few works which were later mistranslated and misunderstood by Greeks and especially by Roman "Christians"*
Thank you again!
You are welcome!
If I wanted to learn more about the teachings of Shammai, where would be a good place on the internet to look?
Not aware of any one place where they are concentrated.
Check out mishna Ediot Chapters 1,4and 5
Mishna Berochot chapter 8
Tractate Shabbat 17 .... ( over the 18 enactments on the day that the majority were from the house of Shamai [י״ח דברים הו ביום גזרו[)Note Hillel and Shamai only disagreed on three matters , it was the house of Hillel an house of Shamai that argued over numerous, the reason is given in the Talmud .
The references I mention is only a fraction that’s discussed all over the Talmud, it’s just a sampling.
Volume too low
Tanna is better translated as repeater .
A tanna had to record to his memory an enormous amount of Mishnah , which he would repeat it until it was recorded to memory.
תני תנא קמיה דרב...
Repeater?
Henry Abramson מלשון שונה
אינו דומה מי ששנה את פרקו מאה פעמים למאה ואחד
מִשֶּׁמֵּת רַבִּי בָּטְלָה עֲנָוָה וְיִרְאַת חֵטְא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב יוֹסֵף לְתַנָּא: לָא תִּיתְנֵי עֲנָוָה, דְּאִיכָּא אֲנָא. אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב נַחְמָן לְתַנָּא: לָא תִּיתְנֵי יִרְאַת חֵטְא, דְּאִיכָּא אֲנָא.
The final line of the mishna states that from the time when Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi died, humility and fear of sin ceased. Rav Yosef said to the tanna who reviewed the mishna: Do not teach that humility ceased, for there is still one who is humble, namely me. Rav Naḥman similarly said to the tanna who reviewed the mishna: Do not teach that fear of sin ceased, for there is still one who fears sin, namely me.
(Sotah 49b)
Rav Yosef was an Amorah and he told the Tana ( the repeater of Mishnah and Breitos) to amend his גירסה .
אִי צוּרְבָּא מֵרַבָּנַן הוּא - לֵימָא הִלְכְתָא, וְאִי תַּנָּא הוּא - לֵימָא מַתְנִיתִין, וְאִי קָרָא הוּא - לֵימָא פְּסוּקָא.
Rav Aḥa, son of Rava, said to Rav Ashi: If a person needs to summon an individual from inside a synagogue, what should he do, since it is not permitted to enter a synagogue just for that purpose? Rav Ashi said to him: If he is a young Torah scholar, let him recite a halakha upon entering the synagogue; and if he is a tanna who memorizes large numbers of mishnayot, let him recite various mishnayot; and if he is an expert in the Bible, let him recite a verse; (Megillah 28b)
Gaon of Vilna explains the story of oven achnoi.
The three main character traits of a sage are.
ענוה , הסתפקות במועט, שקידה
Humility, abstention, diligence
The water represents humility (למה התורה נמשל למים ...)
The Carob represents the abstinence (כל העולם ניזון בשביל חנינא בני וחנינה בני די לו בקב חרובים וכו׳)
The walls of the Beit Midrash represents the diligence.
And they all beared witness that R’ Eliezer excelled them all, in all of the above.
רבי אליעזר שמותי
He was excommunicated after the the story of oven achnai, therefore he wasn’t present in the mesivtah and therefore not engaged in the discourse.
As we find in Tractate Sanhedrin 68
When Rabbi Eliezer took ill, Rabbi Akiva and his colleagues came to visit him. He was sitting on his canopied bed [bekinof ], and they were sitting in his parlor [biteraklin]; they did not know if he would be able to receive them, due to his illness.
And that day was Shabbat eve, and Rabbi Eliezer’s son Hyrcanus entered to remove his phylacteries, as phylacteries are not worn on Shabbat. His father berated him, and he left reprimanded. Hyrcanus said to his father’s colleagues: It appears to me that father went insane, since he berated me for no reason. Rabbi Eliezer heard this and said to them: He, Hyrcanus, and his mother went insane. How can they neglect Shabbat preparations with regard to prohibitions punishable by stoning, such as lighting the candles and preparing hot food, and engage in preparations concerning prohibitions by rabbinic decree, such as wearing phylacteries on Shabbat?
Since the Sages perceived from this retort that his mind was stable, they entered and sat before him at a distance of four cubits, as he was ostracized (see Bava Metzia 59b). It is forbidden to sit within four cubits of an ostracized person.
Rabbi Eliezer said to them: Why have you come? They said to him: We have come to study Torah, as they did not want to say that they came to visit him due to his illness. Rabbi Eliezer said to them: And why have you not come until now? They said to him: We did not have spare time. Rabbi Eliezer said to them: I would be surprised if these Sages die their own death, i.e., a natural death. Rather, they will be tortured to death by the Romans. Rabbi Akiva said to him: How will my death come about? Rabbi Eliezer said to him: Your death will be worse than theirs, as you were my primary student and you did not come to study.
Rabbi Eliezer raised his two arms and placed them on his heart, and he said: Woe to you, my two arms, as they are like two Torah scrolls that are now being rolled up, and will never be opened again. I have learned much Torah, and I have taught much Torah. I have learned much Torah, and I have not taken away from my teachers, i.e., I have not received from their wisdom, even like a dog lapping from the sea. I have taught much Torah, and my students have taken away from me, i.e., they have received from my wisdom, only like the tiny amount that a paintbrush removes from a tube of paint......
They asked him further: What is the halakha with regard to a shoe that is on a last? Is it considered a complete vessel, which needs no further preparation, and is therefore susceptible to impurity? Rabbi Eliezer said to them: It is pure, and with this word, his soul left him in purity. Rabbi Yehoshua stood on his feet and said: The vow is permitted; the vow is permitted; i.e., the ostracism that was placed on Rabbi Eliezer is removed.
Rabbi Akiva was not present at the time of his death. At the conclusion of Shabbat, Rabbi Akiva encountered the funeral procession on his way from Caesarea to Lod. Rabbi Akiva was striking his flesh in terrible anguish and regret until his blood flowed to the earth. He began to eulogize Rabbi Eliezer in the row of those comforting the mourners, and said: “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen” (II Kings 2:12). I have many coins, but I do not have a money changer to whom to give them, i.e., I have many questions, but after your death I have no one who can answer them.
Although some say that Shamuti means he was a student of Beit Shammai and bring proof from the Yerushalmi, that would seem difficult since R’ Eliezer was a prime student of R’ Yochanan Ben Zakkai a prime student of Hillel. Also R’Eliezer “ never said that which he had not heard from his teachers (sukkah 27b).
And it can’t be because he had more stringent tendencies, because the in he story of oven achnai itself R’ Eliezer is in the lenient view .
Take R’ Eliezer D’milah where he is lenient on מכשירי מילה.
Hmm
That's good stuff.
Thanks!
I have been looking forward to this one 😁
I am fascinated with this period.
You and me both!
Wasn't it Yechezkel who led the change to 'the prayer centered' religon
How so?
"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
Well, a lot, actually, but that's in another lecture.
וכנגדן גלתה סנהדרין מגמרא מלשכת הגזית לחנות ומחנות לירושלים ומירושלים ליבנה
And corresponding to these ten stages, the Sanhedrin was exiled in ten stages at the end of the Second Temple period and after the destruction of the Temple, and this is known from tradition: From the Chamber of Hewn Stone, its fixed seat in the Temple, to Ḥanut, literally, shop, a designated spot on the Temple Mount outside the Temple proper; and from Ḥanut to Jerusalem; and from Jerusalem to Yavne;
ומיבנה לאושא ומאושא ליבנה ומיבנה לאושא ומאושא לשפרעם ומשפרעם לבית שערים ומבית שערים לצפורי ומצפורי לטבריא וטבריא עמוקה מכולן שנאמר (ישעיהו כט, ד) ושפלת מארץ תדברי
and from Yavne to Usha; and from Usha it returned to Yavne; and from Yavne it went back to Usha; and from Usha to Shefaram; and from Shefaram to Beit She’arim; and from Beit She’arim to Tzippori; and from Tzippori to Tiberias. And Tiberias is lower than all of them, as it is in the Jordan Valley. A verse alludes to these movements, as it is stated: “And brought down, you shall speak out of the ground” (Isaiah 29:4).
Rosh Hashana 31b
The reason we find the sages continuously trying to return to Yavne from Usha (western Galilee) is that Yavne is situated in Judea which takes precedence over the Galilee.
סאה ביהודה שוה חמש סאים בגליל (ב״ב קכ״ב)
Interesting
Henry Abramson according to Doros Harishonim the first move to Usha from Yavne was in the Time of Domitian , and they returned in the time of Nerva ( short lived) returned later in the beginning of the reign of Hadrian . In the time of Trajan the mesivta didn’t convene properly.
The Takanot Usha were from the second time they went to Usha in 116ce
Majority rules over the voice from heaven...sounds like America 😮
Well, theoretically, anyway.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD feels like it never really has held up to it’s ideals