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As a science teacher I wanted to say you did great on explaining carbon dating. I also really appreciate the focus on how good science is about knowing -how- accurate and appropriate your methods are and not simply treating data as gospel or lies with no in-between. Science is rarely “yes” or “no” but instead a careful measurement of exactly how confident we can be with our data. Keep up the great stuff.
Very interesting video! I think your point is solid, that the methods used to radio-carbon date European manuscripts may not work in the same way for manuscripts made in other climactic regions like Arabia. Better tools and metrics need to be developed, and until then any dates for these MSs of the Qur'an should be taken with a big grain of salt. I was surprised to hear that the early transmission of the Qur'an was mostly oral... I always assumed that there were written copies, and I had read somewhere that the Uthmanic standard was based on Abu Bakr's personal copy. Would this have been a special case, or just a legend? Also, I hope you don't mind but I show some of your videos to my students in a medieval history class I teach, as I think your content is really informative and well produced. Looking forward to the next one!
If im not mistaken, Uthmanic standard taking from Abu Bakr's copy is true, but they also compiled from other companions as well to create the said standard. In the early days of Islam according to traditions, Quranic parchments and carvings were scattered here and there and some were only memorised orally. Hence the caliph Uthman created a council of learned men from the companions of the prophet to compile, write and standardised it according to the Quraysh way of reciting.
It's not really the tools it's the fact organic material might be older than when it was used.parchment could have been cured much earlier than when they were actually written on.wood is the same they carbon date wood especially ashes aswell.but the problem with that is the age of the wood prior to burning was it young trees used or 200 yr or used a 200 yr old tree that's been dead or blown over for years.parchment could have been stored overtime it was very expensive and sought after.
Dr Joshua Little made an excellent rebuttal to the late canonization theory. I'm not Muslim despite my name, just descendant of Arab Christians, but I found his arguments very convincing for anyone curious.
As muslim I will be honest with you , it doesn't matter the date to me as long as within century after the prophet death which means within the time period of the sahabahs, AND the text of manuscripts haven't changed from what we have today
Carbon dating while amazing in many ways is not perfect. These spans of +- 50 years are in the normal range of error for the method. It can confirm that these manuscripts are original, meaning not later forgeries, but it can't really give us a precise timeline
Can we radio carbondate the ink on the parchment instead of the parchment itself?? wouldn't that give more accurate results of when the folio must be compiled??
Dating that is even more difficult than dating the parchment. Additionally, the process is somewhat destructive. But again, imagine how difficult it would to be remove some ink from a piece of parchment that's over 1000 years old and testing that.
Very true by why didn't the technicians whom were in charge of the carbon dating process place this analysis within consideration before publishing requisite results
If any one wants more detail explanation on how The Holy Quran was compiled, Watch *The Muslim Lantern's video on Quranic Text* , he goes in depth with proper reference.
Great video. Curious to know if the ink used can also be carbon dated? One comment: The modern western scholarship analyses and tries to triangulate on any given claim through linguistics, historical/archeological record, references and mentions in parallel cultures and carbon dating. Conventional theological scholarship is just like walking in circles as it relies on its own sources only. Who's actually trying to find the truth? Or who's scientific in finding the truth?: Western scholarship.
This kind of bullshit navel-gazing is what makes Western scholarship does not realized it's own short coming and biases. This very own comment had implied non-Western method or approach aren't scientific and it requires Western intervention for truth seeking. Such bullshittery is also happened in Ancient Chinese history Western sinologist doubt this and doubt that traditional account only to be proven wrong when the exact bamboo scroll excavated. I love modern historiography and scholarship but attaching "Western" to that feels like unnecessary by each passing day. Esp with westerners uncritically and unconsciously treat their own modern scholarship as dogma.
Very interesting 👌 the animal skin is hard to date or rather proving when it was written on. The parchment could have been cured centuries or years before it was actually written on.i believe wood is the same it can be older than when it was used.
After watching this video, I cannot helped but wondering that is it possible that the Qu'ran that existed before the Prophet himself might actually be some sort of Christian texts written in either Syriac or Arabic that got disassembled at one point in time and then reassembled again later on in an attempt to make it looked similar to the Qu'ran. If that is the case, there is a way to prove it by looking for the evidences for how it was being re-compiled back then since peoples needed to sew all pages together to make one book. Even if the book itself ended up being de-compiled for the purpose of removing certain parts/pages and/or rewrite, the evidences of the pages being sewed back together will still be there. But considering how long it had been, it might be hard to look for such evidences. However, this led to a new question as well: What is the purpose of disassemble the Syriac/Arabic Christian texts and then re-compiled it together as the Qu'ran? Why did such a thing? What can one gained from doing it?
the muslims were very particular about their quran, because even if there is a minor alteration to the word of God, it cannot be considered as Quran. I do not think that any muslim would accept a dissassembled Syriac or Arabic Christian text as Quran as it will be entirely different text, context, grammar, syntax and everything even if some of the stories are similar.
I did not understand your comment since you seem to assume that a Quran existed before the prophet Muhammad ﷺ, there is no evidence at all for such a theory, nothing at all. We start hearing about the Quran when the prophet appears, the Quran clearly talks to a prophet, yes there are some parrallels to previous scripture, not copy pasting, so what ? Your theory, with all due respect, about texts being assembled then de assembled is garbage. It’s a crazy conspiracy theory. Why is there such distrust about Muslims sources when we can prove that they came from the 1st century, that we have rock inscriptions, Muslims and non Muslims text mentioning the prophet Muhammad ﷺ, passages of the Quran, names of companions ect. Are you ready to say that Muslims from the 1st century who litterally butchered each other colluded and agreed on a lie that they had a prophet, agreed on a text, prayers, rituals, events, battles ect ? Or maybe that they even crafted the material evidences ?
@@m.aimanhafiz4532 I know that no Muslims will accepted that. But to those who are non-Muslims who happened to know how to speak Arabic, they may accidentally and/or unintentionally considered it the Qu'ran without consulting the people who are actually Muslims who read the entirety of the Qu'ran before. Is such a thing impossible?
If I understand your argument, you're saying the instrument (european) are not well calibrated for Middle East so the measures are wrong. How about the other measures on other objets in other countries (Asia, America...)? If your arguments are rights, all the other measures are wrong so it must be easy because it's huge.
Carbon dating is calibrated using objects of known age. So you take some wood from for example 1000BC, 50BC, 100CE, 600CE etc for which you somehow already know the age, measure those, and use those numbers to configure your instruments so they can predict age for other samples. The problem with Arabian peninsula is the lack of organic material - it's a desert. To be more precise lack of dateable organic material. I'm sure there are a lot of remains of bushes and grass and bone, but it's really hard to date those if you don't already have precise carbon dating. And the levels of C14 in the air differ slightly by region, so you can't 100% rely on calibration done in distant regions. But as the video shows, it's still close enough, giving results with less than 50 years of error. It's just hard to narrow the gap for a more exact date.
@@qetoun This isn't the slam dunk point you think it is. The differences in the Sanaa manuscript are just dialect differences, changes in the order of verses, scribal mistakes, and paraphrases. It's a well established and uncontroversial fact that the third caliph standardized the spelling and layout of the Quran. Imagine if someone hundreds of miles away from you, speaking a whole different dialect of English, made a bunch of popular poetry that spread across multiple people and dialects before it reached you, and then you wrote it down. How accurate do you think you'd be to the original? That's what the Sanaa manuscript and the dozens of other historically arrested Quran variants were. There are fair points to be made against lslam, but this is one of those kinds of arguments that gets spread around online among people who just don't understand the topic. All it does is mark you as the kind of person who doesn't know what they're talking about and can be ignored.
@@ewrvwergwergwergwerg Sorry, that has been disproved. The differences between the ancient Korans are clear textual variations wherein the differing location of the vowel markers creates different words. Other common variations include different or absent pronouns and articles. Just look at the variations between the Huffs and Warsh texts.
Often some older manuscripts were scraped clean and used again, like the Archimedes manuscript. But there is good evidence of some passages in the Koran originating from Syriac Aramaic Christian texts, ..some hymns etc, and also there are 3 pre Islamic poets that seem to get quoted in it, particularly Imru al Qais , incidentally he later developed a very unpleasant skin condition and so would have been very covered up, rather like images of Muhammed in most paintings, perhaps there was some confusion about who this was ,and that was where the tradition began? Allah is also the name for God in these earlier languages, and Muhammad (meaning' the praised one')was used as a title for Christ. so saying 'There is no God but God , and Muhammad (Christ) is His Prophet', would I guess be quite acceptable to most of the Christian groups living in the Middle East before Islam. About 25% of the Koran is apparently much more intelligible in these earlier languages, and 3 references to Muhammad in the Koran are referring to Christ, there is a later passage using the name which seems to be referring to the War Lord guy...It's odd the way they got mixed up but it appears that the Fatimids and the Umayyiads(?) were rather busy destroying each others manuscripts, so there's a rather inadequate paper trail. .. .
My message to every Muslim, my brother or sister, the owner of the channel, I know that I do not have the right to comment on your channel, but as God bears witness, our circumstances are harsh and you forced me to do this, something. Please forgive me. I honor you because you are men. We are women. You cannot go out or work like you, my brother. Where is the brotherhood of faith in your hearts? We are women. Brotherhood. There is no mercy, no compassion, no humanity. Giving good news to the patient is the greatest hope of waiting for what we want.'''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' how much. I called, how many words I spoke, and how hard we are, but there is no life to whom you call. Brother, we are with us. My mother orders us food from the restaurant. Zawidah and today. My mother went. She was crying. She said why is Yami crying? You said, my daughter. I'm asking. God is mine. He consoles me with death. She said it. why. Yami. You claim againstus. She said: My daughter, today is a friend. The restaurant. Why? The most beautiful people in terms of people. I ask God, my daughter. God is gathering me. Death alone is a better insect. Who is this foolish and this insignificant? True, true. I am saying this. It diminishes my value and my respect. But, brother. I swear to God that I did not say this, kiss your boots. I was so hungry that my conscience no longer allowed me to let her go and ask us for food. I kiss your boots, brother, and I ask you by God Almighty and in the Book of God, brother, I kiss your boots, brother. We have nothing to do with it, brother. Even a thousand Yemeni riyals. We can buy us a kilo of minutes. 00967717413452. Have mercy on him. He who is in the show will have mercy on you. He who is in heaven will have mercy on you. Brother. This is my number. The one who can help us. Message me on WhatsApp. We will send it. The full name will transfer us as much as he can. May God reward you well. God knows that the owner ofthe house takes us out in the street in the rain because of... Please see my condition for yourselves, I ask you by God, the Ever-Living, the Ever-Subsisting, to help me, and God is the Great, even at night we cannot sleep from fear. We have neither mattresses nor blankets to keep us warm from the cold. Everything has been drowned by the rain, and we have no one but God. Then you, my brothers, kiss your boots. Do not let me be disappointed. Help us as much as you can. So, do you please us that we live in this place? We are girls and we have no one. Our father died in a car accident. Consider us your daughters and offer and help me as much as you can. May God reward you well =>[[}>] ^][°] €] €] €] €...' ',,,,,,,,;-'-"!;'(')"\|\(/()\|¶€(/)'|\€\>|\≧≫;;/:; -/;;!;?;"????✓]}>>]}]}]\>]}>×}✓\..........🎉🎉😢😢😢
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As a science teacher I wanted to say you did great on explaining carbon dating. I also really appreciate the focus on how good science is about knowing -how- accurate and appropriate your methods are and not simply treating data as gospel or lies with no in-between. Science is rarely “yes” or “no” but instead a careful measurement of exactly how confident we can be with our data.
Keep up the great stuff.
Very interesting video! I think your point is solid, that the methods used to radio-carbon date European manuscripts may not work in the same way for manuscripts made in other climactic regions like Arabia. Better tools and metrics need to be developed, and until then any dates for these MSs of the Qur'an should be taken with a big grain of salt. I was surprised to hear that the early transmission of the Qur'an was mostly oral... I always assumed that there were written copies, and I had read somewhere that the Uthmanic standard was based on Abu Bakr's personal copy. Would this have been a special case, or just a legend? Also, I hope you don't mind but I show some of your videos to my students in a medieval history class I teach, as I think your content is really informative and well produced. Looking forward to the next one!
If im not mistaken, Uthmanic standard taking from Abu Bakr's copy is true, but they also compiled from other companions as well to create the said standard. In the early days of Islam according to traditions, Quranic parchments and carvings were scattered here and there and some were only memorised orally. Hence the caliph Uthman created a council of learned men from the companions of the prophet to compile, write and standardised it according to the Quraysh way of reciting.
It's not really the tools it's the fact organic material might be older than when it was used.parchment could have been cured much earlier than when they were actually written on.wood is the same they carbon date wood especially ashes aswell.but the problem with that is the age of the wood prior to burning was it young trees used or 200 yr or used a 200 yr old tree that's been dead or blown over for years.parchment could have been stored overtime it was very expensive and sought after.
Dr Joshua Little made an excellent rebuttal to the late canonization theory. I'm not Muslim despite my name, just descendant of Arab Christians, but I found his arguments very convincing for anyone curious.
very interesting video man. I knew about radiocarbon dating but never how it works. Thanks for the explanation!
Very good video, as always, keep it up mate.
Mashallah amazing video akhi, I've been loving the new switch to a new style man
I remember my Physics Professor talking about this limitation of radiocarbon dating
As muslim
I will be honest with you , it doesn't matter the date to me as long as within century after the prophet death which means within the time period of the sahabahs, AND the text of manuscripts haven't changed from what we have today
Excellent. Much effort put in the video.
Can't watch now, my friend, saving it for later 👍
Carbon dating while amazing in many ways is not perfect. These spans of +- 50 years are in the normal range of error for the method. It can confirm that these manuscripts are original, meaning not later forgeries, but it can't really give us a precise timeline
Very good video
Can we radio carbondate the ink on the parchment instead of the parchment itself??
wouldn't that give more accurate results of when the folio must be compiled??
Dating that is even more difficult than dating the parchment. Additionally, the process is somewhat destructive. But again, imagine how difficult it would to be remove some ink from a piece of parchment that's over 1000 years old and testing that.
Apart from agreeing or not! you will always get knowledge from this channel.
ALLAH THE MOST MERCIFUL has blessed me with your video ❤.
Love this channel
Keep up the good work ❤
Very true by why didn't the technicians whom were in charge of the carbon dating process place this analysis within consideration before publishing requisite results
good video
Very science-y
Unlike your doctors!
that last line about people treating science like religion, cherry picking information, chef's kiss 😘👌
If any one wants more detail explanation on how The Holy Quran was compiled,
Watch *The Muslim Lantern's video on Quranic Text* , he goes in depth with proper reference.
Great video. Curious to know if the ink used can also be carbon dated?
One comment:
The modern western scholarship analyses and tries to triangulate on any given claim through linguistics, historical/archeological record, references and mentions in parallel cultures and carbon dating. Conventional theological scholarship is just like walking in circles as it relies on its own sources only.
Who's actually trying to find the truth? Or who's scientific in finding the truth?: Western scholarship.
Couldn't have put it better myself!
The ink can be used (I don't know if it's carbon dating or some other method) but it's even more flimsy than dating the writing surface.
This kind of bullshit navel-gazing is what makes Western scholarship does not realized it's own short coming and biases. This very own comment had implied non-Western method or approach aren't scientific and it requires Western intervention for truth seeking. Such bullshittery is also happened in Ancient Chinese history Western sinologist doubt this and doubt that traditional account only to be proven wrong when the exact bamboo scroll excavated.
I love modern historiography and scholarship but attaching "Western" to that feels like unnecessary by each passing day. Esp with westerners uncritically and unconsciously treat their own modern scholarship as dogma.
Very interesting 👌 the animal skin is hard to date or rather proving when it was written on. The parchment could have been cured centuries or years before it was actually written on.i believe wood is the same it can be older than when it was used.
very good anaylsis
Does Muhammad’s bodily remains still exist somewhere in a tomb in Medina?
We believe so
In a place called Rawda in Medina
Another great video keep it up
After watching this video, I cannot helped but wondering that is it possible that the Qu'ran that existed before the Prophet himself might actually be some sort of Christian texts written in either Syriac or Arabic that got disassembled at one point in time and then reassembled again later on in an attempt to make it looked similar to the Qu'ran.
If that is the case, there is a way to prove it by looking for the evidences for how it was being re-compiled back then since peoples needed to sew all pages together to make one book. Even if the book itself ended up being de-compiled for the purpose of removing certain parts/pages and/or rewrite, the evidences of the pages being sewed back together will still be there. But considering how long it had been, it might be hard to look for such evidences.
However, this led to a new question as well: What is the purpose of disassemble the Syriac/Arabic Christian texts and then re-compiled it together as the Qu'ran? Why did such a thing? What can one gained from doing it?
the muslims were very particular about their quran, because even if there is a minor alteration to the word of God, it cannot be considered as Quran. I do not think that any muslim would accept a dissassembled Syriac or Arabic Christian text as Quran as it will be entirely different text, context, grammar, syntax and everything even if some of the stories are similar.
I did not understand your comment since you seem to assume that a Quran existed before the prophet Muhammad ﷺ, there is no evidence at all for such a theory, nothing at all. We start hearing about the Quran when the prophet appears, the Quran clearly talks to a prophet, yes there are some parrallels to previous scripture, not copy pasting, so what ? Your theory, with all due respect, about texts being assembled then de assembled is garbage. It’s a crazy conspiracy theory. Why is there such distrust about Muslims sources when we can prove that they came from the 1st century, that we have rock inscriptions, Muslims and non Muslims text mentioning the prophet Muhammad ﷺ, passages of the Quran, names of companions ect. Are you ready to say that Muslims from the 1st century who litterally butchered each other colluded and agreed on a lie that they had a prophet, agreed on a text, prayers, rituals, events, battles ect ? Or maybe that they even crafted the material evidences ?
@@m.aimanhafiz4532 I know that no Muslims will accepted that. But to those who are non-Muslims who happened to know how to speak Arabic, they may accidentally and/or unintentionally considered it the Qu'ran without consulting the people who are actually Muslims who read the entirety of the Qu'ran before.
Is such a thing impossible?
@@m.aimanhafiz4532
There are variations of quran still in use.
@@hawkingdawking4572 wow
If I understand your argument, you're saying the instrument (european) are not well calibrated for Middle East so the measures are wrong. How about the other measures on other objets in other countries (Asia, America...)? If your arguments are rights, all the other measures are wrong so it must be easy because it's huge.
Carbon dating is calibrated using objects of known age. So you take some wood from for example 1000BC, 50BC, 100CE, 600CE etc for which you somehow already know the age, measure those, and use those numbers to configure your instruments so they can predict age for other samples.
The problem with Arabian peninsula is the lack of organic material - it's a desert. To be more precise lack of dateable organic material. I'm sure there are a lot of remains of bushes and grass and bone, but it's really hard to date those if you don't already have precise carbon dating. And the levels of C14 in the air differ slightly by region, so you can't 100% rely on calibration done in distant regions.
But as the video shows, it's still close enough, giving results with less than 50 years of error. It's just hard to narrow the gap for a more exact date.
All hail the algorithm
🙌
Teu bing en. No j as in jog.
The text of these early fragments also show clear differences in the text of the Koran.
show the proof then
@@AndikaPratama0 , and if I do? Then what? Will you accept that there are multiple versions of the Koran?
@@AndikaPratama0 Here's just one of manty instances of the Koran being changed. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanaa_manuscript
@@qetoun This isn't the slam dunk point you think it is. The differences in the Sanaa manuscript are just dialect differences, changes in the order of verses, scribal mistakes, and paraphrases. It's a well established and uncontroversial fact that the third caliph standardized the spelling and layout of the Quran.
Imagine if someone hundreds of miles away from you, speaking a whole different dialect of English, made a bunch of popular poetry that spread across multiple people and dialects before it reached you, and then you wrote it down. How accurate do you think you'd be to the original? That's what the Sanaa manuscript and the dozens of other historically arrested Quran variants were.
There are fair points to be made against lslam, but this is one of those kinds of arguments that gets spread around online among people who just don't understand the topic. All it does is mark you as the kind of person who doesn't know what they're talking about and can be ignored.
@@ewrvwergwergwergwerg Sorry, that has been disproved. The differences between the ancient Korans are clear textual variations wherein the differing location of the vowel markers creates different words. Other common variations include different or absent pronouns and articles. Just look at the variations between the Huffs and Warsh texts.
Often some older manuscripts were scraped clean and used again, like the Archimedes manuscript. But there is good evidence of some passages in the Koran originating from Syriac Aramaic Christian texts, ..some hymns etc, and also there are 3 pre Islamic poets that seem to get quoted in it, particularly Imru al Qais , incidentally he later developed a very unpleasant skin condition and so would have been very covered up, rather like images of Muhammed in most paintings, perhaps there was some confusion about who this was ,and that was where the tradition began? Allah is also the name for God in these earlier languages, and Muhammad (meaning' the praised one')was used as a title
for Christ. so saying 'There is no God but God , and Muhammad (Christ) is His Prophet', would I guess be quite acceptable to most of the Christian groups living in the Middle East before Islam. About 25% of the Koran is apparently much more intelligible in these earlier languages, and 3 references to Muhammad in the Koran are referring to Christ, there is a later passage using the name which seems to be referring to the War Lord guy...It's odd the way they got mixed up but it appears that the Fatimids and the Umayyiads(?) were rather busy destroying each others manuscripts, so there's a rather inadequate paper trail. ..
.
My message to every Muslim, my brother or sister, the owner of the channel, I know that I do not have the right to comment on your channel, but as God bears witness, our circumstances are harsh and you forced me to do this, something. Please forgive me. I honor you because you are men. We are women. You cannot go out or work like you, my brother. Where is the brotherhood of faith in your hearts? We are women. Brotherhood. There is no mercy, no compassion, no humanity. Giving good news to the patient is the greatest hope of waiting for what we want.'''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' how much. I called, how many words I spoke, and how hard we are, but there is no life to whom you call. Brother, we are with us. My mother orders us food from the restaurant. Zawidah and today. My mother went. She was crying. She said why is Yami crying? You said, my daughter. I'm asking. God is mine. He consoles me with death. She said it. why. Yami. You claim againstus. She said: My daughter, today is a friend. The restaurant. Why? The most beautiful people in terms of people. I ask God, my daughter. God is gathering me. Death alone is a better insect. Who is this foolish and this insignificant? True, true. I am saying this. It diminishes my value and my respect. But, brother. I swear to God that I did not say this, kiss your boots. I was so hungry that my conscience no longer allowed me to let her go and ask us for food. I kiss your boots, brother, and I ask you by God Almighty and in the Book of God, brother, I kiss your boots, brother. We have nothing to do with it, brother. Even a thousand Yemeni riyals. We can buy us a kilo of minutes. 00967717413452. Have mercy on him. He who is in the show will have mercy on you. He who is in heaven will have mercy on you. Brother. This is my number. The one who can help us. Message me on WhatsApp. We will send it. The full name will transfer us as much as he can. May God reward you well. God knows that the owner ofthe house takes us out in the street in the rain because of... Please see my condition for yourselves, I ask you by God, the Ever-Living, the Ever-Subsisting, to help me, and God is the Great, even at night we cannot sleep from fear. We have neither mattresses nor blankets to keep us warm from the cold. Everything has been drowned by the rain, and we have no one but God. Then you, my brothers, kiss your boots. Do not let me be disappointed. Help us as much as you can. So, do you please us that we live in this place? We are girls and we have no one. Our father died in a car accident. Consider us your daughters and offer and help me as much as you can. May God reward you well =>[[}>] ^][°] €] €] €] €...' ',,,,,,,,;-'-"!;'(')"\|\(/()\|¶€(/)'|\€\>|\≧≫;;/:; -/;;!;?;"????✓]}>>]}]}]\>]}>×}✓\..........🎉🎉😢😢😢
Try harder .... LOL