Was the Story of Prophet Muhammad’s First Revelation Plagiarized from Saint Bede?
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Muhammad ibn Ishaq, as you might know, wrote the first biography of the Prophet Muhammad. In his biography, he tells us a story of how the Qur'an was first revealed to Prophet Muhammad in the cave of Hira. However, some 20 years before Muhammad ibn Ishaq wrote it down, the same story was written 5000 miles away in England, of all places. Just like Muhammad recited poetry (composed by God), Cædmon also learned to recite poetry from an angel. So, how is it possible that these two stories exist only 20 years but 5000 miles apart? Let's find out.
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Zubayr ibn al-Awwam RA was also prophet Muhammad first cousin from Zubayr ibn al-Awwam RA mum
Arey bhikaari, tujhe apni bakwaas hagne ke liye logon se bheek chahiye , jaahil. Qur'an tujhe poetry laga, kyo ke tumne jahil mulla, mufti and so called self proclaimed islamic scholars jo hadees ko Qur'an se bada darja dete hain aise mujreemoon se tumne seekha aour wahi tum apne muh se hagg rahe ho
One correction: Az Zubair didn't die in battle with Battle of Camel. Midway through the battle, he recieved several calls from army of Ali ibn Abi Talib to change sides, which is said to have made him doubt his decisions. He ,however, left the battlefield midway the battle refusing the fight any further on either side. He and few of his companions went to a nearby city in the region,where he was assassinated in a mosque during prayer
I’m pretty sure there are conflicting narratives around the political events of the Rashidun caliphate, so he may be drawing on a different chronology of events
Before Muslims doubt this, let me explain.
Al Muqaddimah is a Muslim who studies at a secular university, so naturally, the videos he makes will go under the paradigms of the HCM. If he disputes this story authenticity, it doesn’t really affect him being Muslim, unless he goes further into discrediting all ahadith ( which he doesn’t).
This idea about the Islamic tradition plagiarizing from fables or stories in the past, is an assumption that is made in order to work on the Quranic passages. These universities does not believe the Prophet got divine revelation, so they try to find the information in the Quran from other historical sources.
This narrative promoted in the video has some serious criticism.
Firstly, it seems like a he cherry-picks the version of the Iqra narrative, in order to fit it with the order historical source. He says that the prophet was sleeping and he had a dream, but the story more ulema agrees with, is that he was awake when it happened, and historians like Ibn Katheer reconciles it by saying he was sleeping then on his way out of the Cave he saw Jibreel. This exclusion of information, by Al Muqadimmah I found to be disingenuous, unless he truly wasn’t aware. Many more factors like these, happens to be in the comparison you’re making, and reconstructing every single one of them, leaves us at the fact, that the comparison in reality , does not share the similarity, that would force us to assume they share the same source.
Secondly and more importantly, we have a direct chain of narration back to Aisha, who told us the story which happened, directly from the Prophets words. In other words, the story of the Iqra Narrative is not before the other historical source you’re comparing it with, rather it is 100 years before that, and it was also well known since we have other narrations speaking about the event. You are forcing the implication, that the Iqra narrative first happened as a historical event, when it wasn’t written down by Ibn Ishaq?
That is a forced interpretation, and far from established traditional Islamic sources.
I don’t know if you’re reading this Al Muqadimmah, but I am not attacking you or your work whatsoever. The reality is that many Muslims, could get doubts from these kinds of conspiracy comparisons, when in reality they shouldn’t.
I didn't cherry pick anything. The point of the video wasn't to talk about Islamic Tradition that the ulema compiled. It was merely to compare a story written by ibn Ishaq and another by Bede. I mentioned in the video that there are other versions but the point, again, wasn't to analyze the Iqra Narrative in general but just the version by Ibn Ishaq which bears similarities with Bede's story.
@@AlMuqaddimahYT You cherry-picked instances in the Ibn ishaq story, which many other seerah scholars have given alternatives to. You did that only to fit it within the narrative. But hey, whatever makes you sleep at night.
@@muhammadabdullahi7200
Do you actually have citations in MLA or APA format to back your counterpoint that @AlMuqaddimah cherry-picked Ibn-ishaq story?
@@muhammadabdullahi7200 you're implying that AlMuqaddimah is attempting to push the Iqra narrative, when he is simply comparing that narrative to another story. If he is choosing to talk about the Iqra narrative it's not cherry picking, it's simply picking a topic to discuss
The most probable explanations are either coincidence or that christian pilgrims brought some ideas they've heard from Islamic Jerusalem back home. We cannot depend on a hypothetical common source because well it's hypothetical.
Those to whom We gave the Scripture recognise him (Muhammad) as they recognize their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it. (Quran: 2:146)
Ameen ❤
This video completely destroys Quran by explicitly calling out the various sources feom which different stories of Quran are collected from. Weirdly ur response is to quote some stupid sentence from the same quran. I guess this again confirma that Muslims are retarded
NOpe...MOmo is a pdfile
@@samuelmithran5586no,u
@@samuelmithran5586
your source is a book that you can't read nor confirm to be true? 🤣
"There was a time that brits didnt cause trouble where they went" Oh how I wish that remained to be true throughout history XD
This was before the invention of package holidays after all.
@@hedgehog3180 and colonialism
The Qur'an doesn't say that it has no poetry. It merely says that it wasn't written by a poet and that Prophet Muhammad wasn't a poet. This was to discredit the allegations that Prophet Muhammad was composing it himself. As Muslims believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah, no mere human poet. It doesn't mean that the Qur'an doesn't have what can be called poetry. The Meccan chapters of the Qur'an are very much poetic with rhyming sentences, metaphors and all the other tropes of poetry.
I mean true but the verbose is unmatched with any other poem that to classify them using the same label is in my opinion quite disrespectful. For the Quranic Arabic and text exists within its own sphere within Arabic
I also believe as Muslims we should stay away from treating the contents of the Quran in academic matter, as it does not require academic analysis in a secular sense or labelings that will inevitably demean it. The study of the Quran is a subject on its own right that follows a different methodology as prescribed by Islamic scholars.
But it doesn't qualify as a 'poetry' just because of rhymes or saj'. classical arabic poetry has a set of metre and prosody that need to be satisfied for something to be called as a poem. And quran, with all of it's saj' doesn't comply with these metres and cannot in the true sense to be called as a form of poetry, it is a pioneer and a unique literary genre of its own.
@@AlMuqaddimahYT With all due respect, scholars classify the Noble Qurʾan as a distinct branch of Arabic literature, separate from poetry, even through many verses may be rhythmic.
That's not however what you said, you made the lie that stories got into the quran from myths and such, not from God, disregarding the sources that explain how they got there, all to make an accusation.
Are you even muslim with this kind of doing
Having rhymes doesn't mean it is poetry
27:36 Ibn ʾIshāq did *not* plagiarize the story because the narration he reported was directly transmitted through earlier Muslims.
Was he not the first to record it
@@AmmanAbbasi-cb9lq so? He did not make it up on his own, but narrated through his teachers who narrated through theirs, and this going to the Prophet ﷺ himself. This is how every Ḥadīth works. Writing was not the only way Aḥādīth were transmitted, as action and narration through generations was also a source.
plagiarize or not this kind of story of angel visiting a certain person was nothing new in the middle ages . so it could be just a co-incident
the ancient/medieval world was far more interconnected than most modern people think it was. one of my favorite things about history are those stories of odd encounters or borrowings you might not expect
I didn't understand how we came about the conclusion, why are we amagining and assuming that there was a greater source source out of thin air?! Altough it never existed. The easiest and more logical explanation is that english pilgrims to palestine heard the story around 640s or after, and incorporated into their work later on. They don't have to take that story from Orwa or Ibn Ishac.
I think we are missing an important point, the story of Iqra probably existed among other arabs in the levant and the english men took it from someone else without the need to hear it from the above 2 muslim figures. Just because these stories reached us through Ibn Ishac, doesn't mean that he was the only one who knew about it at the time
Can I just say as well, when you hear about a Muslim discussing this, you'd imagine them to be polemical about it; but you are very much analytical about it. You don't make yourself sound pushy, you just exhibit what you've found. And that's why 233,000 people respect you.
Is he a Muslim because he kept saying the Prophet name without "peace b upon him".
@@afzalshahid3884yes
@@afzalshahid3884Also he seems like a rational person so I doubt he is muslim too
@@Greenlake786lol 😂 kāfir talkin bout rationality, peak comedy
@@kuhabazak referring to people as kafir undermines your supposed rationality.
Beautiful production value man. The animations, music switching, all top notch.
I’ve been waiting for this for a while! I was first introduced to the Caedmon dilemma in a second year English literature class at university. Bede was assigned reading that I forgot to do, but I think it made for a better encounter when I heard the professor recount the story orally. You mentioned the Cædmon problem in a previous video and I’ve been subscribed since then waiting on you fulfilling your promise to talk about the topic. Despite having looked at much of the scholarly literature myself at this point, and having come to similar conclusions, this was very entertaining and well structured! Awesome work!
P.S. Since it has oddly become an object of contention in the comments here, perhaps an idea for a future video could be a discussion on why some people are so afraid to refer to a work that is comprised largely of poetry, poetry. Maybe even discuss iconoclasm towards art in modern Islamic civilization more generally.
Like it or not, Islamic scholar have this attitude of not claiming knowledge came from them out of nothing, they will wrote the source up to the main source. Something that acknowledged that knowledge is accumulation of many before them and eventually sourced from God Almighty, not mere human being invention
Bro there's literally a Qur'anic verse in which God says that its not poetry..
Peace and blessings be upon the messenger, his wives, companions and his progeny
Peace and blessings upon all those who had to suffer from the hands of those thugs of hamad- Safiya (SAW), Kinana (SAW), Abu Afak (SAW), Asma bint Marwan (SAW) and countless more!
@@cxaz10 Who are these people? Can you tell me more?
Can you please explain why you still use Ibn Ishaq as the oldest Biography of the Prophet while the Biography of Musa ibn Uqba (d. 758 CE) and Sulayman bin Tarkhan (d. 761 CE) were found and printed recently?
Or why you don’t use the oldest Hadith compilations like Hammam ibn Munabbih (d. 719 CE) or Malik bin Anas (d. 795 CE)
Or why you don’t use the oldest Tafseer by Ibn Jurayj (d. 767 CE) which was found and printed also recently?
There's something off about this guy
@@Zaid26127He seems Shia to me
@@afşînmalatîturkî could be, Allahu 'alam but we should give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's just ignorant of the full details or just mistaken
Because none of those are relevant to the video
@@afşînmalatîturkîNah I'm certain he’s Deobandi.
Brother, the Quran is not poetry and Prophet Muhammed did not receive his first revelation while sleeping in a dream. I have no idea why are you saying this, I hope it is ignorance and not willful malice
I literally gave a reference to the sleeping thing. It's by ibn Ishaq.
@@AlMuqaddimahYT Who is not credible 😂
Even according to Bukhari, the first form of revealation were dreams.
just wanted to mention a little thing Ibn Ishaq didn't write Tarikh al Tabari it was written by Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari (@5:05 you mentioned Ibn Ishaq but the narration is cited from tarikh al tabari)
If you look at the beginning of the extract in Tarikh al-Tabari, shown in the video, you will notice that one of the transmitters mentioned is Muhammad ibn Ishaq.
I came here from your collabs with channels like Religion for Breakfast. So hello!
I think the idea that the tropes came about which then led to certain literature being written and then a source or similar sources made their way to both places is quite fascinating. I've been following some biblical scholarship and iirc in the New Testament, you can also find similar tropes to Greek stories (especially since the New Testament is written in Greek).
Also, as you went on with the tale, I kept thinking of the origins of Mormonism, which if I recall, was about a man receiving gold tablets from an angel, and translating them by putting his head into a hat. It seems that some tropes still survive till now.
I wouldn’t say plagiarism that’s going too far. It’s more that certain formulas and tropes are popular among humans and so when myths, legends, and semi biographies are written these formulas are used. The story of Moses is very similar to Sargon of Akkad and flood stories are by nature formulaic. The birth narratives of Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad follow similar tropes. It’s more a testament to the unimaginative nature of people.
Moses isn’t similar to Sargon of Akkad
@@Bundpataka both were supposedly abandoned by a priestess mother on a basket in a river and taken in by a foster parent. They are so similar that the Moses birth narrative is widely considered to be based of Sargon’s
4:10 Blatantly inaccurate. The Noble Qurʾān is not an instance of Arabic poetry, but is the third and an entirely separate branch of Arabic literature, after poetry and prose.
All the noble teachers acquired wisdom in winderness and renote regions. For example, the Buddha, Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them. So there are bound to be common themes in the stories. One thing is for sure - they became awakened in solitude 😊
This is fascinating! I’m not a Muslim, but I’m very interested in religious history in general, and Abrahamic religious history in specific, so your insights are really helpful to me, and thank you for doing this.
IMO, I think the “coincidence” option is the most likely, but form the story takes could be shaped by the way other similar stories are told. To give a bad example, everyone knows the basic way westerns are told. The setup, the conflict, climax, the conclusion. While this is not universal - all westerns don’t follow the same format - the ones that don’t generally don’t for some specific narrative reason, which deliberately plays against expectations, which means, of course, that people *have* expectations of how these stories are supposed to be told.
So it’s possible the English story is true, but it was phrased in what was the “accepted” way of relating such things. Or, I suppose, it could be entirely mythical. This presupposes that there *was* a standard format for these things in those days, of course, and I don’t know that there was. I’d have to do a ton of research to figure that out.
If we go with your fourth option, which I think is the second most likely, well, we know that the book of Enoch was widely circulated and read from about 400 BC to at least the first century AD, so it would have been widely known. IIRC it seems to have been very popular with heterodox Christian groups as well, many of whom retreated to locations outside the empire in the second and third centuries AD, in which case it, or something like it, would probably be the precursor story.
The more I think on it, I think option 4 is more likely than 3.
Incidentally, someday I would love to hear anything you know about interactions between heterodox Christian groups and Islam in the early Islamic era and the late pre-islamic era. Early Christian heresies are fascinating
Great video Brother! You should read ‘First Century Sources for the Life of Muhammad? A Debate’ written by Gregor Schoeler, Andreas Gorke and Harold Motzki. In it, Schoeler argues against Shoemaker that the Iqra’ narrative actually influenced Caedmon’s Hymn.
He writes; ‘One possible manner of the conveyance has been long known. Von See, who here follows the historian E. Rotter, first of all calls attention to the historical situation: When Bede wrote his Historia, the rapid advance of Islam in Europe was ‘the main topic’ in the Christian Occident, and at the close of his work Bede makes explicit mention of the Arab threat (V, 23). Following Rotter, von See fur- thermore points out that after years of warlike confrontations between Muslims and Christians the years 726-730 were marked by reciprocal efforts towards an understanding - one of the external signs thereof was the marriage of the Berber emir Manu(n)za with a daughter of Duke Eudo of Aquitaine. “In verbal com- munications - particularly during such periods of peace - knowledge of religious texts and customs could effortlessly have been passed back and forth.”144 The agents for the widespread dissemination of the story into Christian Europe would likely have been qussas, popular preachers and story tellers who crossed the Strait of Gibraltar with the Muslim armies.’
He concludes: ‘Therefore there is still no plausible alternative to deriving the European Caed- mon story from Mu1ammad’s initial revelation experience.’
Your channel is so underrated
This channel gives off clear secular or semi agnostic views of Islam which I’ve seen in various videos. This is a dangerous area for average Muslims to wonder.
Exactly. I stopped watching his videos and unsubscribed after I noticed this.
You always should separate the science of arts from history and your beliefs
So, these videos should not affect your believes
Nothing to worry even for Avarage Muslim..The story of Iqra is Not important rather the whole message given in Quran is important
How the message is reached to Mohammed PBUH doesn't impact the message given in the Quaran
Quran is witness for itself..
retard
The battle of yarmook is a historical fact from the year 636. And well before this year standard mushafs were available, which surely included surah al alaq and surah az zuha and many other surahs like al mudassir,al muzammil , al qiyamah which describe many details of the beginning of the revelations. Therefore leaving the most authentic source namely the Glorious Qur'aan for caedmon or ibn ishaq is not only unfair but unjust to the core.
You are trying too hard to
1. Designate the quran as poetry when too many verses and hadith explicitely mention it is not poetry.
The Qur'an itself addresses the claim that it is poetry in several verses. Here are some of them:
1. **Surah Yaseen (36:69)**
- "We have not taught him poetry, nor is it befitting for him. This is only a Reminder and a clear Qur'an."
This verse explicitly states that the Prophet Muhammad was not taught poetry and that the Qur'an is not poetry but rather a reminder and a clear message.
2. **Surah Al-Haqqah (69:41)**
- "It is not the word of a poet; little do you believe."
Here, the Qur'an denies the accusation that it is the words of a poet, emphasizing that people still disbelieve despite its clarity.
3. **Surah At-Tur (**52:29**-30)**
- "So remind [O Muhammad], for you are not, by the favor of your Lord, a soothsayer or a madman. Or do they say [of you], 'A poet for whom we await a misfortune of time?'"
This passage refutes the claim that the Prophet is a poet and suggests that the Qur'an is a divine message rather than human poetry.
These verses illustrate that the Qur'an differentiates itself from poetry, emphasizing its unique nature as divine revelation.
2. Also to fit your narrative you incorrectly stating that the prophet pbh was asleep. He was wide awake.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was awake during the first revelation. The event occurred while he was meditating in the Cave of Hira, located on the Mountain of Light (Jabal al-Nour) near Mecca.
The story is well-known and recorded in various Hadith collections. According to the narration, the Angel Gabriel (Jibril) appeared to the Prophet while he was awake, grasped him, and commanded him to "Read" or "Recite" (in Arabic, "Iqra"). The Prophet, who was illiterate, responded that he could not read. This command was repeated three times, after which the first verses of the Qur'an were revealed:
### **Surah Al-Alaq (96:1-5)**
- "Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance. Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous-Who taught by the pen-Taught man that which he knew not."
This incident marked the beginning of the revelation of the Qur'an and the prophetic mission of Muhammad. It is clear from the accounts that he was fully awake and conscious during this profound experience.
3. The iqra narrative was transmitted and well known way before ibnu isxaq;
1. Sahifah of Hammam ibn Munabbih (d. 728 CE)
2. Sahifah of Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-As
3. Early Qur’anic Codices (compiled around 650 CE)
4. Oral Traditions transmitted by the Prophet’s Companions
These sources collectively indicate that the “Iqra” narrative was well-known and preserved within the early Muslim community. The narrative is real and many orientalist gave up on such points you insinuate. Good channel otherwise. May allah reward you and guide us all
Mashaallah, what a thorough and clear explanation. May Allah reward you brother!
I too don't understand why he keep comparing Qur'an as a poetry
@@pawdaypay this is a pretty contentious thing in the comments
i believe hes just talking about how many verses of the quran read as being poetic in nature with how they have a very particular rhythm and rhyme
its akin to poetry in a sense but no human poetry could of course compare or even get close
Furthermore, this part of this account is in Jaami of Bukhari who had the strictest Sahih conditions for his collection and the consensus of hadith scholars on the reports. As these were the reports that were passes on from the Taba Tabieen from the Taabieen, from a companion.
The Quran does not assert itself as lacking a poetic nature, I believe you have misunderstood those verses.
They are a response to people who discredited the Quran as being the word of God by saying it could just be poetry.
"You are trying too hard"
Said the one trying too hard.
Many ppl in the comments are misunderstanding the intention here. It is not, God Forbid to discredit the Quran, but rather debunk an incident which has been needlessly associated with the first revealation.
I find all your content to be solid on all counts. Keep up the great work!
I’m sorry but doesn’t Yasin ayah 69 state that ‘We did not give him poetry nor is it befitting for him’? Would this not diminish the idea that the Quran is poetry?
I know it uses rhyming, but I believe that in order for it to fit in the category of ‘Poetry’ it would have to fit one of the 16 metrical patterns, which it doesn’t, so that would suggest that it isn’t poetry, right?
I’m not criticising you for calling the Quran poetry - personally for me it is fine for me for it to be called poetry - but I’m just wondering your take on this
The maccan surahs were indeed sent down in the form of poetry, to challenge the mushriqs who were some of the best poets at that time. This is one reason why Allah challenged them to bring one surah or a verse like the quran, because the eloquency and the details and contents in the quran can never be replicated because it is the speech of Allah, the most eloquent in speech.
Surah 108: Indeed, We have granted you O Prophet abundant goodness. So pray and sacrifice to your Lord alone. Only the one who hates you is truly cut off from any goodness.
This is average writing.
@@everyzylrianthat's an average English translation on the meaning of the verses. Your polemic lacks context.
Great video with amazing production quality. I like the little cat on your silver play button, and I'm glad to see your channel growing well g
This video is so pathetic since it simply can't fathom original experiences of the Prophet (s.a.w.) simply because an entirely different experience with some similarity only of a vision was reported from the anglo saxon people with an unknown source. An era in which shaman experiences were rife. Caedmon sees an apparition teaching him hymms is in no way similar to a call as the Messenger of God who was was the seal of all faiths before. One thing which is a fact (hate it all they may) the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) the mesage of Islam is the last of all Major global Religions. That is a fact of human history. No faith has ever come nor will come after islam as a global faith.
The Message seen by the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him materialised and manifested as the final global Religion for Mankind.
Caedmon however, is at best a foot note in hymm compilations of the British isles.
Nothing more needs to be said. 🙌🏽💯
This is a history-based channel, if you want polemics and pure dogmatism, go watch some Sheikh instead
@@Bundpataka this is a muslim criticizing a clear dishonest comparison, if you don't like it leave the comment sections altogether
The most informative channel about islamic culture
from what I have read, this Caedmon was illiterate but lived in an abbey (Whitby Abbey).
this would mean that Caedmon just recited a poem (or hymn) that would have been transcribed by someone else.
Caedmon must have had frequent opportunities to hear the staff of the Abbey reciting or singing Christian Trinitarian hymns and that he memorized.
as being illiterate does not mean being stupid or stupid, it would have been within his possibilities to compose a hymn that would have made sense Christianly speaking if he had faith.
the big problem for him would have been his illiteracy: did the staff of the Abbey forbid him to learn to read or did he never ask for it?
another big problem: is there any proof of this divine inspiration that he would have received?
it looks a lot like a European Christian story like that of Joan of Arc or Bernadette Soubirous: divine inspiration or the apparition of the Virgin Mary (Peace be upon her) are a guarantee of the divinity of the phenomenon.
the miracle would have been that Caedmone began to write as an individual known to be illiterate.
Can you please make a video covering islam and feminism? From a historical perspective
Let me save you the time. Islam is heavily patriarchal. Women get half the property than men, they're merely reproductive vessels, except one's mother.
@@billielachatte4841 I'm a Muslim and I see none of that in islam. Islam believes in Equity and justice,thus men who have to support the entire family get more than daughters who mostly have husbands for support. Islam holds justice and equity above modern toxic traits
@@billielachatte4841 that's exactly what you would say, as before islam women were buried alive,while in your countries, they were labelled by the Church as ,"A rat,A snake,a burning Flame and a servant of Devil". I wonder why it was a Muslim woman(Fatimah Al Fihri) who founded the first university
Women gained more rights from Islam than modern feminism. They took part in battles, a Muslim woman(Fatimah Al Fihri)founded the First true university, a Muslim woman also led entire army of men in campaigns. There is an entire chapter in Qur'an just a single woman (Maryam r.a.h). What more do I need to say. A Muslim woman led a caravan from Morocco to Iran(that's more length than entire Europe).
Nothing to cover concering islam and feminism.
Video suggestion: Did Dante plagiarize the Divine Comedy from Kitab al-Miraj?
20:05 "Second, that there was a time when Brits didn't cause trouble wherever they went."
Brits could have be so different back then 🤣.
Anyway, nice story that you tell here. I am an Indonesian moslem who has grown up with seerah ar-rasul my whole life. But never I would thought that some Brits also wrote a somehow similar story with seerah. This video open up my mind. Keep up the good work, Shawish !
Your insistence that the Quran is "poetry" just so you can fit the two stories together is amazing. The Quran literally states it's neither poetry or the words of a poet (Qur’an 69: 40 & 41) and yet you keep calling it poetry.
Does the Qur'an say it's not poetry? The verses you mentioned say that it's not the word of a Poet, which is right, it's the word of God but does it say that it's not poetry? The Qur'an has a lot of rhyming surahs which can't be described by any other word but poetry. Even in the context of Islamic tradition, it fits that the Meccan surahs are poetry because the Arabs were so proud of their poetry that God countered them by sending poetry of his own.
legacy.quran.com/69/40-46
@AlMuqaddimahYT why specify that it's not the words of a poet if we then go and call it poetry. Rhyming surah is considered part of the miracle and something that when people tried to make something like it only reached poetry as it's the nearest but that doesn't mean it is poetry.
The Quran in general has negative views of poets and poetry, as they are associated with imaginary pictures and false hoods, Allah even says that the prophet pbuh was not taught poetry and it's not even fit for him.
'And We did not give him [i.e., Prophet Muḥammad (ﷺ)] knowledge of poetry, nor is it befitting for him. It is not but a message and a clear Qur’ān'
Surah Yaseen, 69
Having shared qualities as poetry doesn't mean it's poetry. If so then anything with a rythmic prose would just be called poetry and nothing else.
@@codexana4411 Shut the flip up😂 you're clearly a but hurt Christian, sorry, I meant Paulian.. NOW JOG ON!!!
I believe that "words of a poet" means that the Qur'an is not the work of a human poet but rather, it's the word of God, it's a miracle. But we do use human terms to describe the Qur'an at times, for example, we call it a Kitaab which is a word we use for books all over the Islamic world. Is it fair to call all those books by the same term as we call the message of Allah? Calling the Qur'an's rhyming parts poetry doesn't go against anything in Islam. From what you shared, it just looks like a defense of the fact that Prophet Muhammad didn't compose the Qur'an as a poet, but rather just delivered the message of Allah to people.
In any case, what the Qur'an calls itself is a matter of religion and not history. I'm discussing history here. For example, while the Qur'an claims to be clear or "Mubeen", historians and linguists don't believe that it is. Those are two different audiences, Muslims and secular academics.
But coming back to your original point, do you think the same doesn't apply to Caedmon's writing? Considering that in a Christian context, it was God who granted him the gift of composing what he did? Even in that case, the two stories do align.
@AlMuqaddimahYT What the quran calls itself is what it should be called. Calling it poetry would mean it is written by a poet and the author (God according to muslims) didn't want it to be limited to that tag or be themselves called a poet and viewed such a thing and unbeffiting to them.
And about the 'Clear book', this just shows limited knowledge about the quran says and what it is for example surah al baqarah 26 says that any example could be used to guide and misguide and the way misguidince was shown was by the misguided asking questions that needn't be asked. So, a clear book is meant as clear to those who believe.
And saying we call the Quran a kitab, we do because the Author called it that even when it wasn't written down or collected yet (when it didn't fulfill all the definitions set today to be called a book). Keeping on calling it poetry is disrespectful to the author and muslims while calling it poetry wouldn't add much of a change except linking the two stories.
What the other work calls itself is not my concern as i don't know it enough to judge.
Holy Quran E Pak ❤
Great video keep it up you're doing amazing things 😁👍😊
I watch a lot of a video when you mention the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him you don't say peace be upon or صلى الله عليه وسلم why you not say that
I also observed that a lot
It's better we unsubscribe from his channel 😢
yeah, I wonder why?
thats def. not a good sign lol
Because he doesnt see him as a prophet! So cleaaar
Thank you very much for this video. I love this channel so much!
It is difficult to say anything positive, because the reaction can become dangerous of muslims,
but thank you for your videos
Hesoid was also visited by muses which are equivalent to muses i.e. delivering divine knowledge.
So what is the very first original source of both stories in your view? Can the one about Abraham being visited three visitors be the source of both of them?
Mind blown, I've always imagined that...
You know, it was surprising to know that 700 C.E. Angelo Saxons of dark ages could travel to soo vast distances.
Mere conjectures
Nothing solid or anything concrete to link both Saxon and Arabic stories together
We have evidence of people of brittania in the middle east around that time
@@EM-tx3lythe Islamophobe calling historical data speculation. Very new
There’s a lot of historical references to traders and pilgrims traveling vast distances for their respective purposes, it’s just that the vast majority of those travelers never wrote anything down
I wish I could spare the cash to be more than an Umayyad and help these vidoes come out more often.
wisdom comes from God to be shared freely, stories are not important
The conclusion is pathetic. Something that is mass transmitted to almost all the companions of the Prophet sallahualyhiwasallam is illogical to be thought of as something made up, later, from Christian sources.
This man makes no sense
The Quran is NOT poetry, nor did The Prophet (saw) recite poetry !!!!
Surah Al-Azhab ayat 35 sounds like poetry to me
A masterclass in deception. The elevation of the physical and the loss of any spirit of Truth.
There is no satisfaction for the other side. If we confirm their story, they say plagiarism. If we contradicting them, they say we blasphemy against them.
Good point
Production is just so high quality.
Well telling the both stories were influenced by a pre existing biblical narrative is problematic. Because the key points of these stories like an unlettered trustworthy man going into seclusion and getting the word of God then not being able to read/sing it but miraculously being able to read / sing great words and returning to their own people, can’t be found any biblical or extra biblical sources. In my word the second one copied the Sirah .
And verse of Isaiah is actually a prophecy, Isaiah 29:12 “And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.” And it was fulfilled by the prophet (ﷺ).
You don't have any proof that Bede copied the sira.
I really appreciate the effort you put to make these videos. It is a literary treat to watch any new video you upload.
Both also follow the Hero's Journey.
You suggested that Surah Al-Kahf plagiarized the story of the Cave Sleepers. However, the Prophet Muhammad never claimed to originate this story (or the story of Dhul-Qarnayn). The Quran makes it clear that these narratives were already known among the people of that time.
The Prophet was approached and asked about these stories, as mentioned in the Quran. Therefore, neither Muslims nor non-Muslims of that era perceived these narratives as being originated from the Prophet.
The Quran acknowledges that these stories were subjects of public debate and speculation. For example, regarding the Cave Sleepers, the Quran states:
"They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog; and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog, guessing at the unseen; and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog. Say, [O Muhammad], 'My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few. So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument and do not inquire about them among [the speculators] from anyone.'"
This verse indicates that the story of the Cave Sleepers was widely known and discussed, with differing accounts about its details.
Similarly, regarding Dhul-Qarnayn, the Quran says:
"And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about Dhul-Qarnayn. Say, 'I will recite to you about him a report.'"
This verse shows that people were already familiar with Dhul-Qarnayn and sought the Prophet's version or explanation.
Plagiarized is a loaded term, I didn't mean to imply that. Everything you said, I agree with.
@@AlMuqaddimahYT- you are ignoring the facts, the account given in the Qur'an of the sleepers in the cave is distinctly different from the popular ones in circulation. The Qur'an gets its mathematics right about the occurrence, for one thing, this is not so concerning the vernacular versions.
Concerning your ridiculous claim the Qur'an is poetry, this is false. If it was true then the Qurayshi poets would have met the challenge to write one chapter like it according to its language, style and meaning, which never happened. It might be argued the Qur'an is poetic, but it is definitely not poetry as it does not conform to any of the known types of pre-Qur'anic poetry extant (16 in total) and neither is it prose. In fact the Qur'an is its own form of Arabic language, recognisable but clearly a new genre which confounded the Arab experts in the language back then until today (by an unlettered/uneducated person to boot).
Overall, the claims in the video are highly problematic and you are guilty of trying to twist facts to suit your narrative - a heinous intellectual crime.
Caedmon clearly heard stories from returned pilgrims who heard these from the Muslims NOT Christians (the date is a critical indicator here) which he adapted and wrote down for his own purposes (likely to enhance his own reputation, whatever writers do to increase their readership).
@@stephenconnolly1830poetry is not limited to any concrete and unchanging set of styles/meters
@@Bundpataka wrong! The 16 forms of classical pre-Qur'anic poetry have definite meters and rhymes. The Qur'an is completely different. It also has completely new grammar, words, phrases etc, etc. Go away and do some homework before you comment.
@@stephenconnolly1830 maybe the reason why no one could produce anything like the Quran in Mecca was because it’s style was outside of the strict rules of mainstream Arabic poetry? That doesn’t mean it’s not poetry itself, just not mainstream. English poetry used to have strict meters and rhymes but now literally any piece of writing can be poetry
Dream vision sounds like Paul, i mean after pauls vision he went to learned men
Bro you made a mistake. Go back and inquire and just be humble enough to correct your mistake. It is obvious you where not aware of the fact that the uniqueness of the Speech in the Qur'an is that it is neither poetry nor prosa. It does not fit either catagory. And us humans are restricted by the two forms, either we speak prosa or poetry.
The Qur'an is a third form, which can not be emulated. Hence the challenge to mankind and the jinn to create something equal to it. A challenge we will never succeed because we can not step outside the two forms of speech. And though we can not replicate it we can still understand it.clearly.
The Musrikeen used to ascribe the authorship the Qur'an to a foreigner who supposedly taught it to the Prophet s.a.w.in order to explain it's form and content and Allah swt refuted them when He swt says:
"And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language."
meaning, how could it be that this Qur'an with its eloquent style and perfect meanings, which is more perfect than any Book revealed to any previously sent Prophet, have been learnt from a foreigner who hardly speaks the language No one with the slightest amount of common sense would say such a thing.
The Qur'an isn't poetry nor prosa and it's style baffled the Musrikeen, hence they started fabricating stories to explain this unique third form.
Gabriel just saw the way their subordinate did it and copied it. Classic manger tactic.
Muslims were present in Spain since 711 CE. There was always lot of raiding especially of ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic. It is possible that some Muslims familiar with the oral traditions of prophets life made it to England as slaves, learned English and told the story in England. We know this was a proven fact with much of Troubadour poetry, which was derived from the slave girls captured in battles and raids against Muslims. Your hypothesis is highly hypocritical just like mine….And you seem not to understand what plagiarism is. To retell a story that you know your audience is familiar with in order to make a new point or to support your argument is not plagiarism. If I retell an episode of a popular sitcom in order to make a point or to support my argument I am not plagiarizing, especIally if my contemporary audience already knows the story like a popular sitcom with familiar characters. So Quran is not plagiarizing but rather refers to the stories its audience already knows in order to make a new point or support its argument allegorically.
it can be because of bad ventilation or may be flouride one struggle to realize that the only text about Claedmon was written in Anglo-Saxon realm when King Offa of Mercia minted golden coins with "la ilaha illa Allah" in Arabic (better look by yourself), and written about a guy who, according to this only source, was newborn or a child when Muslims fought in Central France and besieged Constantinople. And after ventilating area one could think that text probably was written by Crypto-Muslim about one as Jesus warned - will be sent by God and called him by name in every Canonical Gospels, translated to Greek Text as "ParaCletes" (prefix Para-/Over-/Mu- and root Clete/Praise/HaMD) - Muhammad ﷺ . And yes Christians read Gospel back then.
Thanks for blessing us with another video
Dear brother. I do not blame you much for saying Qur’an is poetry because Arabic language is not your mother tongue language. But for you to appreciate the difference you need to learn “buhur Alshier”
بحور الشعر
Only then you will understand the difference.
I am bilingual but Arabic is my mother tongue language.
I am a huge fan of your channel, so please do not let some comments discourage you in any way or form.
Best regards and wishes. Salam 🌷🌷🌷
Saint bede, more widely known as the venerable bede
Syawish told me I'd be looking forward to this one but I had no idea it was going to be something as big as the Bede question.
Amazing work - As always
The Qur’an is not poetry, there are poetic aspects to it, but it’s not proper to call it poetry.
its poetry, just not proper, it was made in such a way so people can remember easily, even though only a fraction of it is worth remembering.
Very fascinating topic, thanks!
And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor is it meet for him. This is naught else than a Reminder and a Lecture making plain,
(36:69)
There is only one such story found in Hindu traditions, of the guy named Vasugupta who lived in 800-875 CE, dreams and revelation.
Great video.well made and informative 👏👏
Very interesting and informative
This is a great exploration of the topic.
14:09 to 14:38 is the most confusing family history I have ever heard. 😅
Amazing video though!
There are many similar stories in Quran too.. The encounter of Angels/ Allah' s voice to all the prophets..specifically to Musa AS and Maryam AS ..mentioned in the Quaran..
Similarities in the stories are not necessarily build the case of plagiarism.
If we follow the logic shown in the video
The whole prophethood of Mohammee SAW was plagiarism of All prophets b4 him
Quran Verse 36:69 “We have not taught him poetry…(cont.)” this clearly states the Quran isn’t poetry. Also, the story of the father of Khalid where he stated it wasn’t poetry either. Not to mention many scholars agree the Arabic definition for poetry is has to do with “emotion” not just eloquent speech so scholars say the Quran isn’t poetry but more like a “rajaz” which can just be normal statements (without emotion like facts) said in a “poetic” way but not actual poetry since it’s not “emotional”.
Do more research. I usually enjoy this channel but this might be a miss.
Caedmon may also have been a prophet, or at least an inspired person.
Bede wasn’t a saint although he was recognized as venerable which is equivalent to say respected one there is a difference between saint and venerable.
Hello RUclips universe. Here's a summary of this video if you don't have 25min:
1 - There is another story about a man receiving revelation that is similar to that netrated in Ibn Ishak's seerah. I know, shocking right? There's probably no other prophetic stories in the world that are similar to Ibn Ishak's, well, unless you live in Africa like me, you'll find these stories of prohphethood everywhere. Because everyone here is a prophet 😂😅. A man receiving a message in a dream from an angel. Must be a vey uncommon story where Al Muqaddimah lives.😂😂😂
2 - The Quran is apparently like poetry. Even though it has none of structure and rules that obeys the poetry of the time.
3 - not really sure what the conclusion of this video was. It's very hard to pay attention to all the names and stories. The format of these so called history videos are just messy.
Dear RUclips video watches, learning history is a slow process that requires attention to details. This video is not the way. This video is designed to get views. Not to educate.
Hesoid was also believee to be visited by muses which are equvalent to angels i.e. delivering divine knowledge.
Anither great video! Keep up the great content! Cant wait to see more, llleeetttsss gggooo
"Iqrah" is "to recite" rather than read. If you think about it, there was nothing like a paper or book to read from 🤷
What happened was that he went away and copied some texts and you have ayas for the whole sceam.
6:25
8:31
16:24
16:103
23:83
25:5 thats what he did when he went away for periods.
26:224-227
27:68
46:17
68:15
69:41
69:42
83:13
he was accused for this many times so many ayas was written to make sure the poets and all those who saw him as a fake was not to be trusted and should be considered enemies. Nice argumentation!
I can't understand how you all can be so gullible. He then got rich, powerful and had a lot of ladies. Yadiyadiyada, Classic cult story! Repeated many times in history. There is no doubt about this for anyone living outside your bubble.
can you make a video on the name rahman and brahman and their meanings
What interesting is even Quran didnt focused on something like this , it didnt matter how Quran being transferred, what importtant is the message inside it for human being. Even in Quran Allah clearly stated (Im if course roughly summarize it) , that this is Quran , that mostly contains the difference between the truth and lies,with very small portion of it still in doubt. but you will see human being busy debating against each other about that small doubt rather than doing what Quran already clearly mentioned and told human being to do.
the whole story of Israaa and Meraj travel was plagiarized from zorastrian prophet..even meeting the prince on each level of the sky story is there .. and guess what you have the story of Sirat bridge also. namely chinvat bridge....
Quality Content! Waiting for the video about Quran, you mentioned in talk with Hikma history.
Could you make a video on the other theories and narratives regarding Prophet Muhammads first revelation m. Ive heard there is a lot of people who dont believe in the Iqra narrative and have their own historical evidences for it. Could be groundbreaking
I liked your videos so much but how dare compare prophet to anyone..that is disrespectful imo plus saying quran has poetry while Allah clearly said quran its not.
A large part of this man's work and presentation is apocrypha. The rest was just overstretched skepticism.
How you can assure who plagiarised whom.?
Well researched!
Can you please cover Prophet's proposal for Umme Hani before marrying to Khadija RA?
Nor sure
....
What the point of this was
Total waste of time
This is a wonderfully informative video, sir, but you need to know how to pronounce the ancient English name “Cædmon.” The letter “æ” in Old English (which is usually typed “ae” if you don’t have the right keyboard) stands for the same vowel-sound as the letter “a” in Modern English words like “cat / bad / hand”/etc. (It does t stand for the sound that you guessed it would represent: sorry … )
I just wanted you to know this, for your reference the next time you tell the story.
(by the way, you actually did a rather GOOD job of pronouncing the name of Cædmon’s monastery, which is much more difficult to read!) with that name, you were almost perfect; you just need to know exactly “SH” in that name doesn’t stand for the “sh” sound of modern English, but stands for simply an “s” sound followed by an “h” sound. (Old English did not use the modern letter-combination “sh” for that sound; old English used a different letter combination for it! old English used the letters “sc” - but you had no way to know that, and most speakers of modern English would not know that either. So I congratulate you, for that word, on coming as close as you did!)
TBH even if you spelled it Cadmon, I'd probably pronounce it the same way, lol. Like pronouncing it like cad in cadence feels more natural to me but thank you for correcting me. I'll try to be more aware of it in the future.
Interesting what you said about sc being sh in Old English. German has a similar thing. My German friends used to write my name as Syawisch rather than Syawish.
"... there were times when Brits didn't cause mischief wherever they go... "
😂😂😂😂
Hello Al Muqaddimah!
Could you comment on the following text by Sean Anthony? (Is is directly relevant to your video)
*"...But how typical is Willibald's story? Michael McCormick has documented that travel and communication across the Mediterranean - whether by Western travellers heading east, or even by Eastern travellers heading west - remained far more active during the transition from late antiquity to the early Islamic period than has previously been assumed. Although the historical record is incomplete and partial, it offers us impressive figures. Based solely on the evidence of epitaphs, Mark Handley has cited hundreds of long-distance travellers who dared to cross the Mediterranean as pilgrims, traders, envoys, and the like to foreign shores. 62 Although often difficult and fraught with its share of dangers, travel between Europe and the eastern Mediterranean continued despite the disruptions of the Islamic conquests. As McCormick has noted, a careful audit of the evidence for long-distance communications "produces a rich harvest of people moving... around the Mediterranean in an era when travel there was thought to be rare and far between." 63 Therefore, the arguments against the plausibility of the narrative of iqraʾ travelling (in any form) to Bede's Northumbria* **are not as fatal as Shoemaker suggests.** ..."
*Muhammad and the Empires of Faith*, Sean William Anthony