@@Big5ocks Their trailer from Monday indicated there is a "currently unannounced" 3rd faction. So eventually there will be 3 factions in Stormgate, too.
I've been pondering about why design wise Zerg seemed the less aggresive of the three, been literally the SWARM. And then today Lowko as always clears all my doubts. _ Amazing job as always, love watching you for the comments to the newer audience, that help the older-non-player viewers too!
I think MaxPax would ahve a better chance to hold in game 2 with Disruptor - Stalker than Double Immortal with how choky the defense was. Also MAxPAx could try to take the other 3rd base while defending as well.
Skytoss is so tragic to watch in these high level games. Idk if I've ever seen it work, i remember gumiho just tactical jumping 20 BCs on it. I've seen dark tear it apart with festors a half dozen times and games like this are kinda depressing.
Ya, as Lowko said, late game skytoss doesn't hold up at the highest level of play, but at most ranks it can dominate in the same match-up. I imagine that's hard to balance.
I'm not really a starcraft player but everytime i see skytoss vs zerg the protoss always loses. A carieri/tempest gets abducted here and there and even if the zerg lose a big fight they remax and cleanup and still win after. Am i not understanding something about skytoss strengths? Cause to me it really seems like it's better to go for a ground army
Protoss is forced to go into Skytoss because if they stay on the ground they get completely demolished by upgraded lurkers and brood lords. There was an Astrea vs Dark game on Winter’s channel a while back where Astrea stayed on a ground heavy robo based army into the lategame and Dark massed 20+ broods that Astrea just could not touch at all and Immortal/archon is way too slow to outmanoeuvre a zerg on creep or take trades. Hive tech zerg is mostly faster than a P ground army and stronger in a fight, so Protoss has to take to the skies eventually. Of course nowadays Skytoss also does poorly against lategame Zerg, hence why most Protoss pros don’t want to fight the lategame versus Zerg at all as Lowko says. Not to say P can’t win but they’re unfavored whether ground or air.
@@davidcrijns7865 Thanks for the elaborate explanation, that males more sense to me now. Also if you don't mind answering this as well, i remember terrans playing mech terran these past years but recently it's a rarity. What changed in the meta that made mech terran not that strong?
@@chibyknight8325 You speak of TvZ, yeah? If you saw mech in pro TvP you were watching weird games, and pro TvT has only very recently opened up a small niche for mech-ish with the cyclone changes, still being mostly oriented around the marine-tank armies it always was. I’m not sure of what timescale you’re speaking. I can’t speak about every change in the mech versus bio decision in the last five years. However, the recent baneling nerf removing the +5 hp on their speed upgrade and lowering their damage vs light (marines) was a massive buff to the strongest phases of bio, while mech is still vulnerable to roach/ravager the same way it’s always been (while it never cared about banelings all that much). I wouldn’t say mech wasn’t the underdog already before that change, but it meant a noticeable decrease in top terrans like Maru playing a defensive style by heading for quick mech+ghosts builds that could shred basically any army Z threw at it with next to no losses (letting zerg exhaust themselves). Before that, creep got a vision and spread nerf which helps bio more than mech (who tends to attack in bigger groups and can pressure Zerg less over lower map vision). Terran bio is REALLY good vs zerg now and even the likes of Serral are struggling to deal with it without losing too many units to be sustainable. Mech hasn’t had the same upglow and the latest top tier mech play I can remember has fallen out of favour. Other than that, I would just chalk it up to meta variance. Zergs especially have a tendency to figure out builds that have more exploitable weaknesses rather than being all-round good. You don’t see battlecruiser openers much anymore. Clem has also been tearing onto the top of the scene over the last year and he relies on bio(/mine) micro a lot as many young Terrans do (including before the bane nerfs when he already became world champion).
Zerg and Terran really have safe build strategies; bunkers(marines )and queens are just easy to mass produce in the early game and there’s no need to be aggressive; while Protoss have shield battery but limited. it can’t move have very strict builds your forced to be aggressive or lose the game economically
I feel the same way in ZvT. Unless you do a critical damage to terran in the early game, zerg is pretty much screwed in the late game because of insane terran cost efficiency in trades.
26:00 - why snipe the close ovie? Probably the idea is that it's the one doing the most dangerous scouting, so they get rid of it first. Something scouting right next to the zerg base isn't going to give them much info or time to react, but the one sitting right over the enemy base will, so that one is highest priority to eliminate. That's my guess anyway. Use your contacts. You have all of these pro players on your contacts list, ask them =D
Right? I get that the Zerg need a bunch of control groups, but it seems like whenever there's an ultimate late game Protoss deathball against the inevitable clump of corrupters, 9 times out of 10 the skytoss fleet just gets obliterated as soon as they commit to an engagement. And while they don't commit to an engagement, they're constantly getting all their high-cost capital ships abducted one after another.
@@Justin_Leone Yeah you're not beating corruptors with carriers literally no matter how many you have. Voidrays are the play if you call the shots well on when to use Pristmatic Alignment, they just suck really badly against any kind of ling-flood followup. That's what you have archons for, though.
Corruptors? Lol what? The Zerg spellcasters are the only thing that decide the engagement. Corruptor/Brood gets freaking melted by Skytoss - when Lowko says Skytoss he means mass Carrier with Storm & Archon support.
7:30 why aren't detonated banelings included on the units lost tab? They are lost as they are no longer available. Are they also not included on the resources lost tab?
Zvp lategate ive noticed is all about chipping away and avoiding the one big fight as long as possible it seems. Chipping away at the static d & walls when army is away…and abducting/fungal/bomb army to chip away at units and HP. Zerg loses terribly when its full hp army vs army
I dont understand thought process behind skytoss in pro games. It takes shitload of time to build up army while zerg accumulates resourcess, crashes its army and then insta rebuild while protoss barely left with anything...
I reckon they should revert one of the two ultra buffs from previous patch (derpiness or cost). Slimalisks can be damned oppressive from a swift tech switch and if the cost "doesn't matter at the stage of the game" then it shouldn't be an issue putting it back.
26:22 I'm in no position to question Lowko, but you phrased it as a question so... Naw, take the guaranteed kill and prevent the scout. Nvm, we got there in the end 😂
Well, honestly; Lowko goes on and on about Skytoss being a pain on the ladder. Now, I don't know about his level, but as a Diamond player I got to say that the patch that lowered the priority of interceptors getting attacked made all the difference for me. If I know the Protoss commits to a high number of Carriers I am not worried anymore. The max amount of Carriers a Protoss can have is 33. The max amount of Corruptors a Zerg can have is 100. If you try it in a unit tester you can see that about 75 Corruptors are enough to beat 33 Carriers. Of course Carriers on theirs own is one thing. Storm and Archons are usually support. But they get countered by Ultras, Lurkers and Broodlords fairly easily. And since you do not have to focus fire your Corruptors vs the Carriers anymore, means you now can split the Corruptors. Even 2 groups, pre-split, should be enough. But you need to scout how commited the Protoss is and you need to be aware of what comes after the Carriers. Sometimes a sudden Stalker or Voidray switch can make your life miserable. So, fellow low-league Zergs: Don't be afraid of the Carriers anymore. Just scout and build the right stuff.
Going skyToss into Zerg is a terrible idea. Zerg just outclass skyToss way too much. I think the only way to win PvZ is to rapidly switch between Immortals and Purifier.
I found in pvz that like 6-12 carriers depending on your worker count. The only good use of voidrays late game is for harrase honestly. Archons are just better
Hey Lowko, I know it’s a bit of a stretch, I also know you stream but because of time difference. By any chance could you do a commentary on yourself of what you think is your greatest games are? Im curious on your input on the aftermath. Whether it’s games you lose or win, I want to see your before and after view points. Keep up the great work !
For real, they always have like 4k more resources than Toss or Terran in the midgame and then lategame it's not quite as drastic but they still maintain a vast eco lead.
Protoss really needs some new options. In the top 10 matches anything besides lucky adepts or blink stalker 3-4 gate pressure is almost always a loss. It makes the game very boring to watch.
2nd game. The pheonix should have picke up queens one by one and killed them, instead of lifting everything and running out of energy. then voidrays finish the job.
Lowko instead of skipping the 1st 2 minutes all the time can you give us an outline of their build orders so I can copy the greats? Great commentary though
Honestly. I see title I already know who lost. So pls don't use bad titles. But toss lose most games anyway. So it's OK. Use more bad titles it doesn't really affect toss outcome
I love mass Phoenix builds so much. They aren't always great, but so much fun to watch
Didn't realize how much I missed Lowko's SC2 videos until I had to go 4 days without a new one!
Same! Stormgate looks great, but with only 2 races it probably want replace SC2 in my heart
@@Big5ocks Their trailer from Monday indicated there is a "currently unannounced" 3rd faction. So eventually there will be 3 factions in Stormgate, too.
@@Big5ocksSame. StarCraft has kept my interest for over a decade. Meanwhile, words cannot describe how much I have no interest in stormgate.
@SchmittySchfin Sams here there are other rts I'm more interested in. I don't like the cosmetics of the races and it looks so.... uninspired
We're all out of minerals but there's plenty of rocks!
Brutal second match.
30:53 Lowko created a new word 🤣
Good intro, I like this "remastered" version 😄
I've been pondering about why design wise Zerg seemed the less aggresive of the three, been literally the SWARM. And then today Lowko as always clears all my doubts. _
Amazing job as always, love watching you for the comments to the newer audience, that help the older-non-player viewers too!
"Wow Protos its doing it great!"
"Yup yup yup, Zerg wins again"
I think MaxPax would ahve a better chance to hold in game 2 with Disruptor - Stalker than Double Immortal with how choky the defense was. Also MAxPAx could try to take the other 3rd base while defending as well.
Ah MaxPax, I clicked instantly.
17:56 -300/300 lmao
Ahh yes, money on the line, time to play unorthodox methods cause why not 🙃
That's jus the protoss big brain. I mean, where else to test it other than when there's money on the line for the other person too eh?
Skytoss is so tragic to watch in these high level games. Idk if I've ever seen it work, i remember gumiho just tactical jumping 20 BCs on it. I've seen dark tear it apart with festors a half dozen times and games like this are kinda depressing.
Tempest's put in some work sometimes, but it's rough.
Wasn't Skytoss nerfed so badly years ago?
@FerusVagari you might be right actually.
Vipers and ghosts seem to demolish late protoss.
Ya, as Lowko said, late game skytoss doesn't hold up at the highest level of play, but at most ranks it can dominate in the same match-up.
I imagine that's hard to balance.
I'm not really a starcraft player but everytime i see skytoss vs zerg the protoss always loses. A carieri/tempest gets abducted here and there and even if the zerg lose a big fight they remax and cleanup and still win after. Am i not understanding something about skytoss strengths? Cause to me it really seems like it's better to go for a ground army
Forgot to even mention infestors which can land some huge fungal growths on skytoss army or just mind control some expensive units.
Protoss is forced to go into Skytoss because if they stay on the ground they get completely demolished by upgraded lurkers and brood lords. There was an Astrea vs Dark game on Winter’s channel a while back where Astrea stayed on a ground heavy robo based army into the lategame and Dark massed 20+ broods that Astrea just could not touch at all and Immortal/archon is way too slow to outmanoeuvre a zerg on creep or take trades. Hive tech zerg is mostly faster than a P ground army and stronger in a fight, so Protoss has to take to the skies eventually.
Of course nowadays Skytoss also does poorly against lategame Zerg, hence why most Protoss pros don’t want to fight the lategame versus Zerg at all as Lowko says. Not to say P can’t win but they’re unfavored whether ground or air.
@@davidcrijns7865 Thanks for the elaborate explanation, that males more sense to me now.
Also if you don't mind answering this as well, i remember terrans playing mech terran these past years but recently it's a rarity. What changed in the meta that made mech terran not that strong?
@@chibyknight8325
You speak of TvZ, yeah? If you saw mech in pro TvP you were watching weird games, and pro TvT has only very recently opened up a small niche for mech-ish with the cyclone changes, still being mostly oriented around the marine-tank armies it always was.
I’m not sure of what timescale you’re speaking. I can’t speak about every change in the mech versus bio decision in the last five years. However, the recent baneling nerf removing the +5 hp on their speed upgrade and lowering their damage vs light (marines) was a massive buff to the strongest phases of bio, while mech is still vulnerable to roach/ravager the same way it’s always been (while it never cared about banelings all that much). I wouldn’t say mech wasn’t the underdog already before that change, but it meant a noticeable decrease in top terrans like Maru playing a defensive style by heading for quick mech+ghosts builds that could shred basically any army Z threw at it with next to no losses (letting zerg exhaust themselves). Before that, creep got a vision and spread nerf which helps bio more than mech (who tends to attack in bigger groups and can pressure Zerg less over lower map vision). Terran bio is REALLY good vs zerg now and even the likes of Serral are struggling to deal with it without losing too many units to be sustainable. Mech hasn’t had the same upglow and the latest top tier mech play I can remember has fallen out of favour.
Other than that, I would just chalk it up to meta variance. Zergs especially have a tendency to figure out builds that have more exploitable weaknesses rather than being all-round good. You don’t see battlecruiser openers much anymore. Clem has also been tearing onto the top of the scene over the last year and he relies on bio(/mine) micro a lot as many young Terrans do (including before the bane nerfs when he already became world champion).
Zerg and Terran really have safe build strategies; bunkers(marines )and queens are just easy to mass produce in the early game and there’s no need to be aggressive; while Protoss have shield battery but limited. it can’t move have very strict builds your forced to be aggressive or lose the game economically
Well also to build static defense... Terran can build anywhere, Zerg has to have creep... And protoss has to have pylon then defense.
I feel the same way in ZvT. Unless you do a critical damage to terran in the early game, zerg is pretty much screwed in the late game because of insane terran cost efficiency in trades.
1:15
Ooc lowko, when you say how much the event is are you referring to the first place prize or the total prize
I think it is just the winner gets that much money.
Uhh the original Intro!! ❤
26:00 - why snipe the close ovie? Probably the idea is that it's the one doing the most dangerous scouting, so they get rid of it first. Something scouting right next to the zerg base isn't going to give them much info or time to react, but the one sitting right over the enemy base will, so that one is highest priority to eliminate. That's my guess anyway. Use your contacts. You have all of these pro players on your contacts list, ask them =D
Protoss needs a buff.
no Airtoss has dominated for years just because it can finally be beaten doesn't mean it needs a buff
@@bennjj4478 make the carriers the same as it was in brood wars. Actually justify its price.
I don't know how Zerg could ever lose to Sky-Toss. Literally just build more corruptors.
you misspelled queens !
Right? I get that the Zerg need a bunch of control groups, but it seems like whenever there's an ultimate late game Protoss deathball against the inevitable clump of corrupters, 9 times out of 10 the skytoss fleet just gets obliterated as soon as they commit to an engagement. And while they don't commit to an engagement, they're constantly getting all their high-cost capital ships abducted one after another.
@Justin_Leone plus they take so long to make again
@@Justin_Leone Yeah you're not beating corruptors with carriers literally no matter how many you have. Voidrays are the play if you call the shots well on when to use Pristmatic Alignment, they just suck really badly against any kind of ling-flood followup. That's what you have archons for, though.
Corruptors? Lol what? The Zerg spellcasters are the only thing that decide the engagement. Corruptor/Brood gets freaking melted by Skytoss - when Lowko says Skytoss he means mass Carrier with Storm & Archon support.
great game!
7:30 why aren't detonated banelings included on the units lost tab? They are lost as they are no longer available. Are they also not included on the resources lost tab?
Same reason MULEs aren't I imagine, they fulfilled their intended function, the resources were spent not wasted.
Because that accounts for units that were killed. So when banelings explode it doesn't count as a kill.
Heelllooo my name is Graham and welcome to another RUclips comment.
That second game was great.
Zvp lategate ive noticed is all about chipping away and avoiding the one big fight as long as possible it seems.
Chipping away at the static d & walls when army is away…and abducting/fungal/bomb army to chip away at units and HP.
Zerg loses terribly when its full hp army vs army
I dont understand thought process behind skytoss in pro games. It takes shitload of time to build up army while zerg accumulates resourcess, crashes its army and then insta rebuild while protoss barely left with anything...
I reckon they should revert one of the two ultra buffs from previous patch (derpiness or cost). Slimalisks can be damned oppressive from a swift tech switch and if the cost "doesn't matter at the stage of the game" then it shouldn't be an issue putting it back.
26:22 I'm in no position to question Lowko, but you phrased it as a question so... Naw, take the guaranteed kill and prevent the scout.
Nvm, we got there in the end 😂
Zerg needs. Nerf to larvae its too easy for them to win just sitting g around really not doing shit. Blizzard fails at every turn😊
Well, honestly; Lowko goes on and on about Skytoss being a pain on the ladder. Now, I don't know about his level, but as a Diamond player I got to say that the patch that lowered the priority of interceptors getting attacked made all the difference for me. If I know the Protoss commits to a high number of Carriers I am not worried anymore. The max amount of Carriers a Protoss can have is 33. The max amount of Corruptors a Zerg can have is 100. If you try it in a unit tester you can see that about 75 Corruptors are enough to beat 33 Carriers. Of course Carriers on theirs own is one thing. Storm and Archons are usually support. But they get countered by Ultras, Lurkers and Broodlords fairly easily. And since you do not have to focus fire your Corruptors vs the Carriers anymore, means you now can split the Corruptors. Even 2 groups, pre-split, should be enough. But you need to scout how commited the Protoss is and you need to be aware of what comes after the Carriers. Sometimes a sudden Stalker or Voidray switch can make your life miserable. So, fellow low-league Zergs: Don't be afraid of the Carriers anymore. Just scout and build the right stuff.
Going skyToss into Zerg is a terrible idea. Zerg just outclass skyToss way too much. I think the only way to win PvZ is to rapidly switch between Immortals and Purifier.
"How many Immortals has going down?": (Switching to German) NEIN!
Lowko posting another zerg win while ranting about skytoss? Naaaaaa u sure? Check again, that must be false acusations😂
I found in pvz that like 6-12 carriers depending on your worker count. The only good use of voidrays late game is for harrase honestly. Archons are just better
game ended before it even started
Hey Lowko, I know it’s a bit of a stretch, I also know you stream but because of time difference. By any chance could you do a commentary on yourself of what you think is your greatest games are? Im curious on your input on the aftermath. Whether it’s games you lose or win, I want to see your before and after view points. Keep up the great work !
Zerg Op
Since sc1 bw , I love late game PVZ. Those 1-2hr stalemate dirty matchups were fun. Not sure why pro-gamers hate it.
can someone explain why maxpax didnt start voidrays vs ultra-broodlord?
Oracles are cheaper plus can scout.
@@wecx2375 i mean it the lategame, when he was suffering for 5+ minutes and continued to max carriers
@alexanderyelmanov5547 no idea. Probably didn't matter what he made if he was just going to deathball anyway and not have different groups.
Please, What's "get the cake and eat it too"?
I’m a simple man, I see max phoenix, I click
At this point, the best way to nerf zerg is to put an apm limit on the race rather than nerfing the units some more.
Zerg needs to increase the cost of their units just a little bit. Nerf brood lords
For real, they always have like 4k more resources than Toss or Terran in the midgame and then lategame it's not quite as drastic but they still maintain a vast eco lead.
12:00 "Most of the top level Protoss players are not confortable playing the late game at all"
Except if it's a bot. Time will tell us.
Late game sucks because of vipers. I like to finish mid-early late game.
Zerg spellcasters are stupidly op... Vipers and investors above all
Reynor was nasty in his response, wp to him.
Protoss really needs some new options. In the top 10 matches anything besides lucky adepts or blink stalker 3-4 gate pressure is almost always a loss. It makes the game very boring to watch.
Almost all protoss units were nerfed to oblivion for the last few years now
For the phenoix, nydus counter... I'd go DT. Pheonix can shoot overseer.. DT will destroy the roach aggression without detect.
The DTs would probably get destroyed before you could kill all the Overseers they would bring.
That was a complete waste of a Mothership is the line said in every game with at least one mothership. What a useless unit.
yeah better delete that unit and give all protoss units 10% buff in speed....
2nd game. The pheonix should have picke up queens one by one and killed them, instead of lifting everything and running out of energy. then voidrays finish the job.
Lowko instead of skipping the 1st 2 minutes all the time can you give us an outline of their build orders so I can copy the greats?
Great commentary though
Still so much better shit than Stormgate.
Lowko.
Who is max pax in rl?
People have been asking that question for years. No one knows.
I hear its a some player "Life" that was banned in StarCraft 2, so he can play in online format anonymously, but not in tournament format.
I came so early that when i gave like it bugged and show 0 to me (and im pretty sure the other guy gave like aswell)
علي موحان💋💋💜💋💜💋💜💛❤💛❤💛❤💛❤💛🤎❤🤎❤🤎❤🤎🤎❤🤎❤🤎❤🤎🤎😘🤎😘🤎❤💗😘💗😘💗😘💗😘💗💗😘💗😘💗😘💗😘💗😘💗💗😘💗😘😘😘
Why isn't Maxpax photo on the thumbnail?!??!!!?!
Oooh damn. The royal mystery😢
Oye!
Why do pro protoss players even bother going skytoss? It has to have like 20% win ratio.
MaxPax = Tomato can
First ! Hi Lowko !!
Second ! Moah Lowko !!!!
Honestly. I see title I already know who lost. So pls don't use bad titles. But toss lose most games anyway. So it's OK. Use more bad titles it doesn't really affect toss outcome
😶🌫
you ended the video with the caption? And it was protoss nonsense that failed? dissapoint.
More Zerg content 😒
2st
Maxpax played like a diamond player, so sad...
8:51，bottom left。。。233