One of the big messages I take from Job is the fact of innocent suffering caused by the malice of satan, who I am sure is behind many malicious things done by human beings to one another. I still remember perhaps my first encounter, as a little boy, with sheer malice at the hands of an older boy, a stranger, totally out of the blue and unprovoked. I had a very rosy view of life until then. What has been more harrowing is seeing and hearing of terribly malicious things done to others, which I could not bear to be aware of if I had not the consolation of the Lord's promise that the sufferings of this life will be far outweighed by the glorious blessings to come in the next. I thank the Lord that He has, by the Spirit in Christ, kept me from such malicious treatment of others, but I do understand the regret expressed in Eliot's poem about the unwitting harm done to others when we are mistaken about the right ting to do. Old age brings painful remembrance, acute awareness, and penance.
I share Dr Jim's love of T. S. Eliot. I especially appreciate Little Gidding from the Four Quartets. His reflection on "the gifts reserved for age" resonates painfully with me: "Of things ill done and done to others' harm Which once you took for exercise of virtue".
Dr. Jim just made a wonderful T.S. Elliot video. you might want to check it out if you haven't seen it already. ruclips.net/video/R6L6mR6c-Io/видео.html
34:48 You are right to think that Dr Jim might be referencing Jung, for that is exactly what my thought was. I dissent from Dr Jim's view that God was unable to see things through Job's eyes. God knows us intimately, all our make up, all our thought processes and the inclinations of our hearts, all the sensations we experience. I had thought that Dr Jim was going to say the one who had the need was satan, who had to have demonstrated to him the loyalty of God's servant Job.
“The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love.” - Meister Eckhart
@@shari6063 Indeed. He Who made us surely knows us thoroughly. There's a fine Scottish Metrical Psalm version of Psalm 139-O LORD thou hast me searched and known...
@@shari6063 I know you like poetry. There is a lovely John Betjeman poem which references Psalm 139: "The Last of her Order (AKA "Felixstowe") on You Tube, with the poet reading it and explaining the background.
I agree with the push back here. Jess, wise man that he is, follows up my attempt with a more fitting view. The community around Job is transformed by Job’s suffering. The need that I pointed to as God’s, is better placed on the community around Job. The undeserved suffering serves to manifest a truth that was not possible without it; it is the community that is transformed. I really enjoy the process of a deep dive into a work as rich as The Book of Job. But, I find that my initial thoughts, while interesting and intriguing are incomplete or ‘half baked’ until I have tried them out in conversation. I thank Jess for helping me with that process. And yet, nagging in the back of my mind is the bidirectional relationship between God and his creation. God coming down to us is perhaps the same as us reaching up to him. I think DB Hart says something very much like this in Tradition and Apocalypse. As an aside, TS Eliot places the Heraclitus quote “The way up and the way down are one in the same” at the opening of Four Quartets. Lots to think about here.
@@JessPurviance Heard that yesterday. Morphic fields, man. It's weird. Nothing new, in a sense. Proper naming and learning to see what I see. How to talk about it. What's the relationship of seeing and naming? How does this relate to thinking? Remembering?
14:47 phDs saying of Job, “We think this section is totally wrong because…” It’s the discursive reasoning of the analytical mind which seeks to understand via analysis and division (Lewis’s biology/life by vivisection) Vs 16:00 and Dr. Dwayne Garrett’s approach (taking it as a whole). Letting it be. We try to understand persons the same way. It’s sad.
The question posed by Dr. Jim and reformed types from 16:44 - 17:30 ish is such an important question imo: Did Job do something wrong? Is his suffering justified & punitive? Or… Is it making him?
54:29 I would say Lamentations and perhaps the second half of Isaiah have the purpose of healing too. Rabbi Joshua Berman has recently made the argument that Lamentations is meant to eventually read communally as a play in a sense too- like the Illiad....
Another great video! I liked your expanding on the idea of Job's fragrance spreading through his trials. It's probably not worth making a video on, but the TV show "Good Omens" focused on mocking the book of Job in the first two episodes of season 2. They made God look evil, and the voice of God which speaks to Job at the end is a sassy woman🤣.
25:30 - 26:00 Common interpretation: “Job must have done something wrong therefore he’s being punished.” Jess: “Why didn’t God just say that then?” Good question: “What did he repent of?” What was the sin?
33:26 "In a certain sense, God is limited. He can't see through Job's eyes." Dr. Jim, are you familiar with Peter Rollins's work? This is all...yes. Christ in me. Filling up what's lacking in Christ's afflictions. This is the only way that we don't have pantheism, distinction/difference and unity. All meaningful intellectual conversations are about the nature of the God-Man(creation) relation.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
I appreciate the attention that you are giving to this book and the questions that it raises.
thanks!
One of the big messages I take from Job is the fact of innocent suffering caused by the malice of satan, who I am sure is behind many malicious things done by human beings to one another. I still remember perhaps my first encounter, as a little boy, with sheer malice at the hands of an older boy, a stranger, totally out of the blue and unprovoked. I had a very rosy view of life until then. What has been more harrowing is seeing and hearing of terribly malicious things done to others, which I could not bear to be aware of if I had not the consolation of the Lord's promise that the sufferings of this life will be far outweighed by the glorious blessings to come in the next. I thank the Lord that He has, by the Spirit in Christ, kept me from such malicious treatment of others, but I do understand the regret expressed in Eliot's poem about the unwitting harm done to others when we are mistaken about the right ting to do. Old age brings painful remembrance, acute awareness, and penance.
Only ten mins in and this is 🔥
I share Dr Jim's love of T. S. Eliot. I especially appreciate Little Gidding from the Four Quartets. His reflection on "the gifts reserved for age" resonates painfully with me: "Of things ill done and done to others' harm Which once you took for exercise of virtue".
Beautiful line.
Dr. Jim just made a wonderful T.S. Elliot video. you might want to check it out if you haven't seen it already.
ruclips.net/video/R6L6mR6c-Io/видео.html
Awesome conversation. Lots of thoughts.
34:48 You are right to think that Dr Jim might be referencing Jung, for that is exactly what my thought was. I dissent from Dr Jim's view that God was unable to see things through Job's eyes. God knows us intimately, all our make up, all our thought processes and the inclinations of our hearts, all the sensations we experience. I had thought that Dr Jim was going to say the one who had the need was satan, who had to have demonstrated to him the loyalty of God's servant Job.
p.s. I am in accord with your subsequent agreement that the need was for the truth to be manifest to satan and to the cosmos.
“The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love.”
- Meister Eckhart
@@shari6063 Indeed. He Who made us surely knows us thoroughly. There's a fine Scottish Metrical Psalm version of Psalm 139-O LORD thou hast me searched and known...
@@shari6063 I know you like poetry. There is a lovely John Betjeman poem which references Psalm 139: "The Last of her Order (AKA "Felixstowe") on You Tube, with the poet reading it and explaining the background.
I agree with the push back here. Jess, wise man that he is, follows up my attempt with a more fitting view. The community around Job is transformed by Job’s suffering. The need that I pointed to as God’s, is better placed on the community around Job. The undeserved suffering serves to manifest a truth that was not possible without it; it is the community that is transformed.
I really enjoy the process of a deep dive into a work as rich as The Book of Job. But, I find that my initial thoughts, while interesting and intriguing are incomplete or ‘half baked’ until I have tried them out in conversation. I thank Jess for helping me with that process.
And yet, nagging in the back of my mind is the bidirectional relationship between God and his creation. God coming down to us is perhaps the same as us reaching up to him. I think DB Hart says something very much like this in Tradition and Apocalypse. As an aside, TS Eliot places the Heraclitus quote “The way up and the way down are one in the same” at the opening of Four Quartets. Lots to think about here.
56:52 “All I have to do is be honest about how things appear to me. Even if it’s not right.”
Eucharistic vs Mammonistic knowing.
I’ve been thinking lately that the unforgivable sin is to lie to yourself. To deny the divine spark within, the true self.
@@WhiteStoneName Yeah, Shari brought that up in our latest convo.
@@JessPurviance Heard that yesterday. Morphic fields, man. It's weird. Nothing new, in a sense.
Proper naming and learning to see what I see. How to talk about it.
What's the relationship of seeing and naming? How does this relate to thinking? Remembering?
@@WhiteStoneName just looked at the Shari convo. You even made a comment on it! 😀
20:40 Jess + John Piper
23:37 “don’t you think that some of this comes from trying to…read Original Sin (original guilt/shame, PoS) back into the text?
YES.
I love this slow kids song at the end.
I’m in rural BC Jess. 8 hours north of Vancouver! 😂
I know. It's embarrassing. Rural Vancouver... sheesh.
@@JessPurviance 🤗
14:47 phDs saying of Job, “We think this section is totally wrong because…” It’s the discursive reasoning of the analytical mind which seeks to understand via analysis and division (Lewis’s biology/life by vivisection)
Vs
16:00 and Dr. Dwayne Garrett’s approach (taking it as a whole). Letting it be.
We try to understand persons the same way. It’s sad.
The question posed by Dr. Jim and reformed types from 16:44 - 17:30 ish is such an important question imo:
Did Job do something wrong? Is his suffering justified & punitive?
Or…
Is it making him?
Yes! Not just making him, but Job suffers for the benefit of his friends and the people around him. Through him the world is renewed.
54:29 I would say Lamentations and perhaps the second half of Isaiah have the purpose of healing too. Rabbi Joshua Berman has recently made the argument that Lamentations is meant to eventually read communally as a play in a sense too- like the Illiad....
Oh very interesting.
Another great video! I liked your expanding on the idea of Job's fragrance spreading through his trials. It's probably not worth making a video on, but the TV show "Good Omens" focused on mocking the book of Job in the first two episodes of season 2. They made God look evil, and the voice of God which speaks to Job at the end is a sassy woman🤣.
Oh, interesting. I'll have to watch those episodes. Thanks for the tip!
@@JessPurviance its only really the second episode, but the first episode gives some context
25:00
“What is he repenting of?”
Is this related to when John baptizes Jesus?
Oh, man. I didn't think about that!
25:30 - 26:00
Common interpretation: “Job must have done something wrong therefore he’s being punished.”
Jess: “Why didn’t God just say that then?”
Good question: “What did he repent of?” What was the sin?
27:13 a sinless repentance…”of my childish ways”…
33:26 "In a certain sense, God is limited. He can't see through Job's eyes."
Dr. Jim, are you familiar with Peter Rollins's work?
This is all...yes. Christ in me. Filling up what's lacking in Christ's afflictions. This is the only way that we don't have pantheism, distinction/difference and unity.
All meaningful intellectual conversations are about the nature of the God-Man(creation) relation.
Job asks God this.
Job 10:4
"Have you eyes of flesh?
Do you see as man sees?"
@@JessPurviance wonderful.
First!😊
Ooooooo tasty
Served fresh!