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Can’t wait for Gods speech version.. ruclips.net/video/DzRnDK_Pw6U/видео.htmlsi=q4TNBQDJhrYgIPZl

In Order to “see” what is in the heart God leaves… He left Adam and Eve in the garden… he discovered what was in their heart…. Adam and Eve were then sent out of the garden ( where God is and walks in the cool of the day::: recall that God called the “ light” day… not the cycle of earth rotating … the earth had not yet been created in the manner we know it today ).. without God, out of the garden God is not there( in spirit) ( he is everywhere in existence as structure). Just as my toe is me and not me … my mind is vaguely aware of my toe but my toe is even less aware of my mind. God leaves :: what will you do. To be given a choice ( freewill) choose to obey and stay in the presence of God doing his Devine purpose for life or to choose to be without God where there is no good or evil; suffering and death without the garden wherein God walks in the cool of the day: placed out of the garden of God away from his goodness for only God is goodness. To understand the sacrifice that being without God : suffering in the struggle of life, tilling the ground, hunting for food ( killing of life) the birth of children and that only the dead will see an end to war( murder of your fellow man kind) until God returns( I will not always strive with mankind)( my God, my God why have you forsaken me?) ( God left him, to try him, to see what was in his heart- what he will choose to be, obey and trust/believe) ( Try my heart, oh my God) ( have you considered my servant, Job?) / ( he will be called Emanuel : God with us) For only with God is there anything good/evil( the knowledge of good and evil is not only the distinction between good and evil but that without God there is no good or evil but only the survival of the fittest, without mercy or forgiveness)

It seems like the music is louder than the voice, is that my computer's problem?

29:56 "the relationship between the finite and the infinite must always be governed by the infinite, which is to say must always be governed by grace..." Some incredibly profound thoughts from both of you in this discussion (and the last one, too)! I also love that image (I haven't seen it but can imagine) of Leviathan meeting Christ's footsteps on the sea.

Some thoughts: Job 41:12, Job as Leviathan? I think not, at least not at that line. The spirits of Leviathan & Behemoth represent the primordial potential of creation, God’s pet, his “left hand”, the chaos from which God creates. People try to take it up for themselves, but it will judge you. The rebellious demon in the garden used it against Eve. The bible is full of examples. God shows Moses how to wield it, in Exodus 4:2-5 and 7:8-12. Job is unique in that he calls upon Leviathan to use it only against himself, to escape his dilemma and avoid Sheol. God’s speech is foremost to convince his loyal servant that a man’s existence is worth the suffering. To the point at 18:25, “the problem of doing good only to get good,” in Thomas Aquinas’ “Literal Commentary on Job,” he asserts, “So it is clear that the good things which we do are not referred to earthly prosperity as a reward; otherwise, it would not be a perverse intention if someone were to serve God because of temporal prosperity. The contrary is likewise true. Temporal adversity is not the proper punishment of sins, and this question will be the theme dealt with in the entire book.” Not a Catholic, and don’t agree with much of Thomas’ theology, but I think he is right here. Are we being punished, as the Hebrews were under the Covenant? Or are we born into a kind of spiritual warfare that we only partly see.

34:41 "humbled into it's proper location" I 100% a gem I was subconsciously mining for, thank you gentlemen.

This gotta be good

13:03 Letter XI on Force (which turns out to be non-coercive love, and is seen in the Virgin)

Beautiful!

Thank you so much ❤❤❤

"The sensation of truth more than you can handle in the moment. " - Well said sir! It was more than I could handle in the moment as well Jess!

This is beautiful!!! ❤❤

Are ‘perfect’ and ‘without sin’ the same thing? Can one not transgress the boundary, and yet still fall short of maximal quality? Perhaps another way of asking this is, is Job changed to a higher degree of ‘quality’ Job as a result of his experience? Or is Job unchanged by the ordeal because he’s already blameless?

Job would see his previous children in Heaven. They never died, but awaited the reunion with their father Job so they can be as angels glorifying God. This is a glorious mystery. But, the Almighty increased Job’s harvest!

Thank you both for making this video. The idea of learning to play in the chaos (or however you put it) has stuck in my head and I think even helped me fend off some anxiety this week and trust God with it.

I just now am getting around to watching this--had been on my list--but can't help thinking about the catastrophe in the NC mountains--Black Mountain, Asheville, Burnsville, Blowing Rock, Boone, Swannanoa--and those are the bigger towns--that happened to Jordan and his community. It looks and sounds worse than Katrina--will take years to repair. I feel so bad for him. PVK says he has heard he is ok, but past that, doesn't know anything. I'm sure he's busy with his church providing relief aid. But almost all the roads in/out are impassable, washed out. He will surely have an intensified take on Job now.

This was wonderful. And moving in ways I don't understand. I will have to listen again. Thank you.

The way you explained leviathan and the ending part were deeply moving to me. Thank you for this conversation

23:34 very interesting take on how job is someone who internalized Proverbs and Ecclesiastes

I loved that Doctor Strange analogy of God's speech, I interpreted that passage in the exact same way

When Isaiah says, "I am UNDONE" in Isaiah 6....I think he is describing that "atom-izing" experience of encountering the infinite God. Jordan's description of the passage of Job's encounter with God.

Job is such a rich book. The appropriate response seems to often be silence and tears, with a little trembling. Thanks for the excellent convo.

Thanks guys. Any thoughts on Anthroposophy?

Thank you Jess and Jordan, precious and profound

Hey man, Thank you for the understanding of this story.

Hey first time commenter to your channel. Thanks for posting this. Your interpretation of the leviathan and Job was so beautiful! Wow. Much softer than my own...which was closer to Jordan's interpretation. I also dont think you should ever apologize for your tears, especially tears for unknown reasons! Those are the truly deep, important ones. The truer than words ones. I once saw a definition of chaos as "long form, non linear order"...so your idea of surviving in chaos lines up well with the infinite game/game B/take care of the next generation stuff Jordan is into. Surviving in the present without hope and optimism and not knowing if your efforts currently matter or ever will for any larger purpose or to anyone else's life, not knowing truly of anyone ever gets their judgement and justice in life or their karma for good or correction... all the moments you affected someone for better or worse and dont know about: that is the "chaos", that is the long form, non linear interwoven order of all things. And the best way to navigate it all ..is to actually not do much except love and be kind or be still when confused and unsure until clarity presents itself. If one must act even though we are confused andlife does not allow for us to be still, then default all actions and words to kindness. At least thats how it makes sense to me.

Excellent discussion.

Thank you for sharing your profound insights! I derive so much value from this. May you long continue to do so (hopefully also with Shari again). God bless you.

In the beginning I am that I am Created that which is From that which is not The spirit of I am who I am Moved on the depths Of the formless and void Moving by spirit The essence of pattern The image of existence Onto which all things Kinds and likenesses Are called to map All meaning and purpose I am what I am Spoke in fractal terms The geometric shapes of All things real, material Being the observer Collapsing the wave Of non being function Of all created things Kinds and likenesses of being In the simultaneity of the pattern Of being I am that I am Divided light from darkness A cosmological constant Of darkness moving Faster than light And light moving At least time Through the pattern Now known as the face Of the deep I am that I am Thus created by moving Speaking and observing Calling to meaning Dividing time-space-energy To form the kinds Likenesses and images Of all being

Pageau would understand the fractal. Life, wife family, destruction, regeneration. Adam&eve families death and destruction, regeneration/ Noah, Tower of Babel, etc. the story of life. Take the suffering with the joy and be a good person in awe of the lord. Good.

Pumped for this discussion. Thanks, Jess

Yes!

Hi, Regarding the Leviathan part, that's essentially, at least for me, the resolution of the problem of good and evil. God shows Job that evil is part of the fabric of reality and provides a way to relate to it. In Europe, by 1800 most of the forests had disappeared. After the discovery of oil and other ways to obtain energy, people began to forest the mountains. Then they decided to bring in wild animals because they too had obviously disappeared. But they didn't bring in predators and noticed that deer numbers didn't increase. Observing their behavior, biologists understood that the fear factor was missing and brought in the wolves. Not only did the deer population increase, but the whole system exploded and biodiversity was revived. Thank you very much! God bless us!

Everybody who has a belief about the nature of God's relationship to man is told he is wrong. God tells Job bluntly that he doesn't know what he's talking about so shut up. The three friends don't have a clue either. So what to do? The moral seems to be to give up your human ideas about righteousness. What would you do then? It seems that you would lighten up and live humbly among your fellow man. If this is true, lots of people in religious circles should shut up and join the rest of us in acceptance of our ignorance while we treat each other kindly.

I think Job's wife might be the most relatable character of the book...

50:20 Re: Becoming leviathan. “Being the creature who capable of thriving in chaos.” Reminds me of a Beaver. You mentioned the waterfall. Try building your home on that gushing river.

Would love to hear Jess or Jordan or Pageau discuss Jung’s book “Answer to Job”.

Yippie!

Glad to see this. With the two from Jonathan Pageau I think I’ll do a Jordan hall deep dive. 🙏

51:00 “be the type of creature that can survive in chaos.” That’s big.

50:55 I don't know if you realize but you're wearing a whale on your T-shirt as you're talking about becoming Leviathan : )

I'm currently doing Job with a bible study and I really like Jordan's take on Elihu being an angel because he does seem to come virtually out of nowhere and elevates the conversation.

I'm skeptical that Job's kids even died. The story never tells us that they died. It says that messengers came to TELL Job that they died. Much more realistic is that his kids disliked him so much that they stole all of his belongings and payed messengers to report their death. You have to remember that Job puts himself before everyone else, and admitted as much near the end when he said that all of his good behaviour was only for the sake of selfish gain and reputation. In the prologue, it says that he would get his children to purify themselves for sins they didn't commit, every year.

58:54 “every good thing is remembered in the mind of God forever.” -Nate Hile

Nice. Levin and Karen. John and Jonathan. Now Jess

Ecclesiastes says everything is "hebel" (Abel). "Whatever one is, he has been named already, For it is known that he is Adam; And he cannot contend with Him who is mightier than he. Since there are many things that increase Abel, How is Adam the better? For who knows what is good for Adam in life, all the days of his Abel life which he passes like a shadow? Who can tell a Adam what will happen after him under the sun?"

I think I am loving Jess's whale shirt most of all.

10:15 "What do you think of Elihu?" Its definitely a trap!

9:35 Job is the "Suffering Servant"

8:15 "How do you feel about Job as a character?" ...careful, its a trap.