Good morning 🌅, I am retired, now living in France, but from the Uk , nearly 50 years working for myself, obviously starting out did not have a lot of money, so I always purchased secondhand, and if needed, restore the piece of machinery, but I found sometimes that then outweigh the cost of a new one, Back in the early 2000s my business were starting to grow as I was doing barn renovation projects, a planner/jointer, that I’ve purchased back in the late 80s, finally gave up. I’ve already rebuilt it once., so this time I decided to go for new, SCM , PLANNER, classic E450 and SCM THICKNESS MACHINE 500 Classic Electronic , this has a digital readout, both pieces of kit are excellent, in fact I still have them today and now I’m in my 70s, some of the doors I was making were 75 to 100 ml thick, and very large windows 4mt x 2.8 mt wide , that went into ends of building, I always had access to 3 phase electric, it is the cheapest way to run any decent machine, Stay safe keep up the great work , France.
Those sound like some very heavy doors and windows! I shouldn't complain about the ones i do. The door i am just finishing up now will weigh around 220 pounds, but that seems lightweight compared to a 75 or 100mm thick door! Those SCM machines are lovely machines!!! Thanks for watching.
There's some great information here, condensed into a very view-able video :) I am based in the Netherlands and own both new and used woodworking machines ranging from entry level to premium. Buying used is a great way to get started although you have to be prepared to work on the machines. If you don't own any tools for doing so, factor in some $500 in wrenches and sockets and such. Another investment that's easily overlooked is a pallet jack. Once you get into the professional (euro) machines you'll need at least a decent pallet jack to be able to move them around. Even an entry level jointer/planer will easily weigh over 500 pounds with premium sliding table saws and widebelt sanders easily weighing over 3000 pounds. If your shop has central dust collection, each new machine will bring a certain cost in new ducting to connect it to the system. The same goes for compressed air. I've found that a machine always costs more than the price tag says, whether new or used. You'll need saw blades, planer knives, a fritz&franz or a crazy horse dolly. In case of a spindle moulder; make sure to shop around for tooling before buying the machine. If you're used to router bits you'll be in for a small heart attack.
Dat is wel heel goed advisieren, dankjewel!!! Ok, my Dutch i so rusty, i should stop there! :) You're absolutely right about the machine being only part of the cost. There is always so much more to the overall cost, which is part of the reason why buying used when it works out makes so much sense. Shaper tooling is definitely a big expense, especially as you say, if you're coming from a router table. Thanks for watching!!
Except for my table saw, I've purchased all my large tools second hand. I have a very capable jointer, planer and bandsaw and paid less for all three that what it would cost to buy one of those machines new, less than $2000 for the three of them. The key is patience and being willing to travel outside where you might live. You might have to look outside where you think you would normally go. Also, consider how you will get the tool home. I recently bought my used bandsaw and rented a truck with a lift gate to pick it up and get it to my shop.
Great advise for buying used! Patience is key, and as you say, looking further afield will help in finding what you're after. The idea of renting a truck with a lift gate is brilliant. Thanks for sharing!
Bryce, You are a kindred spirit. I too love a bargain and can be a cheap bastard too! But that does not mean I will not spend a lot of money on top quality machines. Moving to three phase power opens you up to a bunch of machinery like you said, but that machinery has a much smaller market than the single phase machines do. That means, three phase machine often go for pennies on the dollar used. I went from no 3 phase machine three years ago to eight machines now! Three were purchased new and the other five were purchased used. The prices were from 50% to 90% off a new machine. Get a Phase Perfect or rotary phase converter and enjoy the better machines!
Exactly, there's simply no comparison between 3 phase machinery and single phase. Hopefully someone will let us know how efficient a 3 phase machine is via the phase converters. I have no idea having never used them. All of the machinery i've ever used outside of my own shop has been 3 phase. I can't speak to the market size between industrial type shops, and home shops, but suspect that it might make more sense for business to buy new and it likely makes more sense to invest in the most up to date, efficient machinery possible?
@@brycecomerwoodworks Bryce - Phase Perfect Phase converters are 97%+ efficient. Three phase machines also use smaller gauge wire for the same HP saving some money there! For me, where I live on the west coast of the US, the deals are everywhere if you are willing to drive. I have purchased two used machines that were too far for me to drive to pick up. I am at 50% success with those shipments, but I was covered by the insurance. You need to feel comfortable to work on your machines if you want to buy used. Some woodworkers do not feel comfortable working on their machines and that is ok. Sometimes the only solution is new if you want the latest technology other times the machines are so good they rarely change. Businesses get to take advantage of tax breaks on new equipment, so they are often wanting to invest in newer tech vs paying the profits to taxes. I have also met many business owners that cannot find people that are reliable and choose to invest in CNC's that just keep working. Which means there are great machines out there if you can wait.
@@pkwoodworking Wow 97% efficient is amazing! There really is no worry then by the sound of it. You're right about the windings in the 3-phase motors and associated wiring. It's all much smaller, in part due to the typically higher voltages. Woodworking machinery really hasn't changed much in decades, just the bells and whistles thankfully, so if you can do without those, you're golden. Unless of course we're talking CNC's then yeah, it's changed dramatically. When i was doing my apprenticeship in the early 80's, and was finished all my schooling, they asked if i wanted to come back when they recieved their first CNC. I totally dismissed the offer, in part because i didnt want to go back after being finished with school, partly because i had no idea how to even turn a computer on, & also because i simply had no idea how CNC's would shape the way some things are made. Thankfully i haven't had to worry too much about that decision, as i've always worked in smaller custom shops before owning my own & the need for CNC simply hasn't been there. 😅 Thanks for your input, you make some great points!
I have a shop almost exclusively full of "used" machines. Used industrial 3ph machinery is ridiculously cheap compared to new. Its also really build to last. My 16" 2500lb newman jointer was made in 1946 and is as perfect as the day it was made. Should something break (unlikely) I can still call newman-whitney and get parts. Im still kicking myself for missing out on a local 4 head moulder last month that went for $3 at auction. Imho used is the way to go for most large stationary equipment.
That's a great example of the benefits of used machinery. In a lot of ways, they don't make them like they used to. Pity you missed out on the moulder!
the other thing to keep in mind, that when buying used, you should buy the older used because nothing they make today is up to the same standards of quality that used to be made, before everything went over seas
I would agree with that when it comes to the low and mid end machinery. As for the high end industrial machinery, i think the new stuff is still insanely good. You will pay for it though, which makes buying used such good value. You can pick up incredible old machinery for so little money that when new, was very expensive.
@@oliver299d I believe there is still some nice stuff coming out of the US. Companies like Ritter, Northfield and Oliver i believe are all still making machinery in the US. Ironwood has some nice looking stuff as well, but not sure if it's made overseas and just designed in the US & Germany. Compared to buying used though, it's all expensive! 😅
@@brycecomerwoodworks anything past 1998 Oliver is asian made, Ironwood is Asian as well, its a branch of stiles. Northfield is still around and makes great stuff. but it's crazy expensive. you can get the same stuff on the use market for 1/4 of the price. I have a bunch of original Oliver machines some of the best ever made
@@oliver299d Ah that sucks! Thanks for letting us know. I wonder what that same machinery would cost if it were still made in the US? Do you have any hands on experience with the Oliver machinery coming out of Asia? The quality of machinery from Taiwan and China in the 80's was terrible, but i imagine it's better these days. I even owned some stuff back then, when i couldn't afford anything else & finding good used equipment wasn't as easy as it is today.
As someone currently going the process, I would avoid buying 3 phase machines if you don’t need them. Unless you already have 3 phase power, or already own a phase converter and necessary accessories, it is t worth it. It is costly to get phase converters and not as simple as just getting a phase converter. In my region, I also need a breaker or fuse for overload protection. Additional disconnects as well as something for regeneration protection maybe needed. There are more things to deal with when it comes time for electrical inspection. Realistically, small shops and hobbyists usually don’t need 3 phase machinery. Entry level industrial grade equipment is available in single phase. On the used market, you will have to be patient because it is less common but it is out there. For example, I bought a used 3 phase Felder K500S. 5 months later the same machine, three years newer, was available for just $600 more than I paid. My phase converter cost $3800 alone. An expensive lesson for me.
Thanks for watching @reid8588, and thanks for the info! Where are you located? I don't have experience with phase converters, but from what i have heard and read, it sounds like here in North America at least, it isn't a big issue to use them. I have some single phase machinery, and my CF531 was also single phase, but going back to 3 phase for my CF741 really did make a big difference in many ways. I also have a VFD running a 3phase multi head boring machine. That works, but it definitely takes a little more time to spin up than running it straight from 3 phase power. Now that i'm in my new shop, i might look at converting it back to run on 3-phase. That's a bummer about the K500s saw. I guess that's the problem with buying used, there's always a chance there's a better bargain just around the corner, whereas with new machinery, they typically don't go down in price! 😅
@@brycecomerwoodworks I am in Ottawa. Just to be clear, I was not trying to criticize you. I just want people to understand it isn't just as simple as plugging your machine into a phase converter. I looked into VFD's as well, but several manufacturers explained to me that the electronics of my machines were too complex and the VFD simply wouldn't work. I was disappointed to see that single phase K500s for sale but you can't sit around waiting for the perfect deal. How do you like your combination machines? I strongly considered them because I am limited for space, but they don't come up for sale used very often. I can't afford them new so I had to go a different route.
@@reid8588 Oh, we're practically neighbors here in Canada! 😆 That's the first time i've heard of needing other breakers etc. so it's really good information. I am very limited on space with only 1000sq/f and about 600 of mezanine. Of that 1000sq/f i have a bathroom, spray booth, and drying room. Heck even the stairs take up a bunch of space. I need a fair bit of space for assembly etc. so yeah, my space is very limited. Unfortunately where i live, there was simply nothing else available when i needed to move my shop, and there still isn't anything, so it looks like i just need to make do. That was of course the main reason behind getting another combo machine. I can't say enough good things about my last combo machine, the CF531 for the money, but the 700 series is definitely a step up, and feels more like an industrial machine. I do wish i had the space for separate machines, as that would give me more flexibility if i ever had someone else working with me. While it's just me though, the combo machine doesn't really slow things down much at all.
@reid8588 once you get over 5hp 3ph becomes more economical. Over 10hp and its basically your only option. Phase perfect, rotary phase converters or vfds all have positive and negative attributes, but none are that difficult to setup (imho). That said I can't speak to canadian requirements, here in the US you can just add a converter to a residential service.
@@jar944 Thanks for the info. When you say over 5hp it becomes more economical, is that based on the cost of the motor and running it? I would have thought even anything under that hp would still operate more efficiently on 3 phase, albeit with diminishing returns.
Ive had a few bad experiences with auction sites ,such as mislabeled machines . Example ; i bought a 10hp 3 phase that turned out to be 15 hp 3phase my converter will only run 10 hp . I got lucky and was able to get a full refund. (very rare)with auction items its buyer beware.. I have a couple more bad storys but my advice is, if you're not willing to drive and pick it up yourself, dont bid..
Individual choice for sure.Second hand or brand new.for me always reasonable priced brand new.i am a professional.Cannot trust some bodys second hand :) Keep up the good work and stay thirsty my friend !
I totally agree. As a business owner, it often makes more sense to spend the money on a new machine. I'm a pretty crappy buisness man though, so i've got a mix of old and new! 😆
Great value video. Thanks!
Thanks for watching Peter, i'm glad you found it useful.
Good morning 🌅, I am retired, now living in France, but from the Uk , nearly 50 years working for myself, obviously starting out did not have a lot of money, so I always purchased secondhand, and if needed, restore the piece of machinery, but I found sometimes that then outweigh the cost of a new one, Back in the early 2000s my business were starting to grow as I was doing barn renovation projects, a planner/jointer, that I’ve purchased back in the late 80s, finally gave up. I’ve already rebuilt it once., so this time I decided to go for new, SCM , PLANNER, classic E450 and SCM THICKNESS MACHINE 500 Classic Electronic , this has a digital readout, both pieces of kit are excellent, in fact I still have them today and now I’m in my 70s, some of the doors I was making were 75 to 100 ml thick, and very large windows 4mt x 2.8 mt wide , that went into ends of building, I always had access to 3 phase electric, it is the cheapest way to run any decent machine,
Stay safe keep up the great work , France.
Those sound like some very heavy doors and windows! I shouldn't complain about the ones i do. The door i am just finishing up now will weigh around 220 pounds, but that seems lightweight compared to a 75 or 100mm thick door! Those SCM machines are lovely machines!!! Thanks for watching.
There's some great information here, condensed into a very view-able video :)
I am based in the Netherlands and own both new and used woodworking machines ranging from entry level to premium. Buying used is a great way to get started although you have to be prepared to work on the machines. If you don't own any tools for doing so, factor in some $500 in wrenches and sockets and such. Another investment that's easily overlooked is a pallet jack. Once you get into the professional (euro) machines you'll need at least a decent pallet jack to be able to move them around. Even an entry level jointer/planer will easily weigh over 500 pounds with premium sliding table saws and widebelt sanders easily weighing over 3000 pounds.
If your shop has central dust collection, each new machine will bring a certain cost in new ducting to connect it to the system. The same goes for compressed air.
I've found that a machine always costs more than the price tag says, whether new or used. You'll need saw blades, planer knives, a fritz&franz or a crazy horse dolly. In case of a spindle moulder; make sure to shop around for tooling before buying the machine. If you're used to router bits you'll be in for a small heart attack.
Dat is wel heel goed advisieren, dankjewel!!!
Ok, my Dutch i so rusty, i should stop there! :) You're absolutely right about the machine being only part of the cost. There is always so much more to the overall cost, which is part of the reason why buying used when it works out makes so much sense. Shaper tooling is definitely a big expense, especially as you say, if you're coming from a router table. Thanks for watching!!
I just checked out your website Bryce. Very nice work. Keep it up.
Thank you. Always learning.
Except for my table saw, I've purchased all my large tools second hand. I have a very capable jointer, planer and bandsaw and paid less for all three that what it would cost to buy one of those machines new, less than $2000 for the three of them.
The key is patience and being willing to travel outside where you might live. You might have to look outside where you think you would normally go.
Also, consider how you will get the tool home. I recently bought my used bandsaw and rented a truck with a lift gate to pick it up and get it to my shop.
Great advise for buying used! Patience is key, and as you say, looking further afield will help in finding what you're after. The idea of renting a truck with a lift gate is brilliant. Thanks for sharing!
I had heart palpitations when I saw this video. Of course you went and posted this video after I bought a shop worth of machines! 😅
😆
Bryce, You are a kindred spirit. I too love a bargain and can be a cheap bastard too! But that does not mean I will not spend a lot of money on top quality machines.
Moving to three phase power opens you up to a bunch of machinery like you said, but that machinery has a much smaller market than the single phase machines do. That means, three phase machine often go for pennies on the dollar used. I went from no 3 phase machine three years ago to eight machines now! Three were purchased new and the other five were purchased used. The prices were from 50% to 90% off a new machine.
Get a Phase Perfect or rotary phase converter and enjoy the better machines!
Exactly, there's simply no comparison between 3 phase machinery and single phase. Hopefully someone will let us know how efficient a 3 phase machine is via the phase converters. I have no idea having never used them. All of the machinery i've ever used outside of my own shop has been 3 phase. I can't speak to the market size between industrial type shops, and home shops, but suspect that it might make more sense for business to buy new and it likely makes more sense to invest in the most up to date, efficient machinery possible?
@@brycecomerwoodworks Bryce - Phase Perfect Phase converters are 97%+ efficient. Three phase machines also use smaller gauge wire for the same HP saving some money there! For me, where I live on the west coast of the US, the deals are everywhere if you are willing to drive.
I have purchased two used machines that were too far for me to drive to pick up. I am at 50% success with those shipments, but I was covered by the insurance.
You need to feel comfortable to work on your machines if you want to buy used. Some woodworkers do not feel comfortable working on their machines and that is ok. Sometimes the only solution is new if you want the latest technology other times the machines are so good they rarely change.
Businesses get to take advantage of tax breaks on new equipment, so they are often wanting to invest in newer tech vs paying the profits to taxes. I have also met many business owners that cannot find people that are reliable and choose to invest in CNC's that just keep working. Which means there are great machines out there if you can wait.
@@pkwoodworking Wow 97% efficient is amazing! There really is no worry then by the sound of it. You're right about the windings in the 3-phase motors and associated wiring. It's all much smaller, in part due to the typically higher voltages. Woodworking machinery really hasn't changed much in decades, just the bells and whistles thankfully, so if you can do without those, you're golden. Unless of course we're talking CNC's then yeah, it's changed dramatically. When i was doing my apprenticeship in the early 80's, and was finished all my schooling, they asked if i wanted to come back when they recieved their first CNC. I totally dismissed the offer, in part because i didnt want to go back after being finished with school, partly because i had no idea how to even turn a computer on, & also because i simply had no idea how CNC's would shape the way some things are made. Thankfully i haven't had to worry too much about that decision, as i've always worked in smaller custom shops before owning my own & the need for CNC simply hasn't been there. 😅
Thanks for your input, you make some great points!
I have a shop almost exclusively full of "used" machines. Used industrial 3ph machinery is ridiculously cheap compared to new. Its also really build to last. My 16" 2500lb newman jointer was made in 1946 and is as perfect as the day it was made. Should something break (unlikely) I can still call newman-whitney and get parts. Im still kicking myself for missing out on a local 4 head moulder last month that went for $3 at auction. Imho used is the way to go for most large stationary equipment.
That's a great example of the benefits of used machinery. In a lot of ways, they don't make them like they used to. Pity you missed out on the moulder!
the other thing to keep in mind, that when buying used, you should buy the older used because nothing they make today is up to the same standards of quality that used to be made, before everything went over seas
I would agree with that when it comes to the low and mid end machinery. As for the high end industrial machinery, i think the new stuff is still insanely good. You will pay for it though, which makes buying used such good value. You can pick up incredible old machinery for so little money that when new, was very expensive.
@@brycecomerwoodworks the European stuff is nice still but yes its not cheap
@@oliver299d I believe there is still some nice stuff coming out of the US. Companies like Ritter, Northfield and Oliver i believe are all still making machinery in the US. Ironwood has some nice looking stuff as well, but not sure if it's made overseas and just designed in the US & Germany. Compared to buying used though, it's all expensive! 😅
@@brycecomerwoodworks anything past 1998 Oliver is asian made, Ironwood is Asian as well, its a branch of stiles. Northfield is still around and makes great stuff. but it's crazy expensive. you can get the same stuff on the use market for 1/4 of the price. I have a bunch of original Oliver machines some of the best ever made
@@oliver299d Ah that sucks! Thanks for letting us know. I wonder what that same machinery would cost if it were still made in the US? Do you have any hands on experience with the Oliver machinery coming out of Asia? The quality of machinery from Taiwan and China in the 80's was terrible, but i imagine it's better these days. I even owned some stuff back then, when i couldn't afford anything else & finding good used equipment wasn't as easy as it is today.
As someone currently going the process, I would avoid buying 3 phase machines if you don’t need them. Unless you already have 3 phase power, or already own a phase converter and necessary accessories, it is t worth it.
It is costly to get phase converters and not as simple as just getting a phase converter. In my region, I also need a breaker or fuse for overload protection. Additional disconnects as well as something for regeneration protection maybe needed. There are more things to deal with when it comes time for electrical inspection. Realistically, small shops and hobbyists usually don’t need 3 phase machinery. Entry level industrial grade equipment is available in single phase. On the used market, you will have to be patient because it is less common but it is out there. For example, I bought a used 3 phase Felder K500S. 5 months later the same machine, three years newer, was available for just $600 more than I paid. My phase converter cost $3800 alone. An expensive lesson for me.
Thanks for watching @reid8588, and thanks for the info! Where are you located? I don't have experience with phase converters, but from what i have heard and read, it sounds like here in North America at least, it isn't a big issue to use them. I have some single phase machinery, and my CF531 was also single phase, but going back to 3 phase for my CF741 really did make a big difference in many ways. I also have a VFD running a 3phase multi head boring machine. That works, but it definitely takes a little more time to spin up than running it straight from 3 phase power. Now that i'm in my new shop, i might look at converting it back to run on 3-phase.
That's a bummer about the K500s saw. I guess that's the problem with buying used, there's always a chance there's a better bargain just around the corner, whereas with new machinery, they typically don't go down in price! 😅
@@brycecomerwoodworks I am in Ottawa. Just to be clear, I was not trying to criticize you. I just want people to understand it isn't just as simple as plugging your machine into a phase converter. I looked into VFD's as well, but several manufacturers explained to me that the electronics of my machines were too complex and the VFD simply wouldn't work.
I was disappointed to see that single phase K500s for sale but you can't sit around waiting for the perfect deal.
How do you like your combination machines? I strongly considered them because I am limited for space, but they don't come up for sale used very often. I can't afford them new so I had to go a different route.
@@reid8588 Oh, we're practically neighbors here in Canada! 😆 That's the first time i've heard of needing other breakers etc. so it's really good information.
I am very limited on space with only 1000sq/f and about 600 of mezanine. Of that 1000sq/f i have a bathroom, spray booth, and drying room. Heck even the stairs take up a bunch of space. I need a fair bit of space for assembly etc. so yeah, my space is very limited. Unfortunately where i live, there was simply nothing else available when i needed to move my shop, and there still isn't anything, so it looks like i just need to make do. That was of course the main reason behind getting another combo machine. I can't say enough good things about my last combo machine, the CF531 for the money, but the 700 series is definitely a step up, and feels more like an industrial machine. I do wish i had the space for separate machines, as that would give me more flexibility if i ever had someone else working with me. While it's just me though, the combo machine doesn't really slow things down much at all.
@reid8588 once you get over 5hp 3ph becomes more economical. Over 10hp and its basically your only option. Phase perfect, rotary phase converters or vfds all have positive and negative attributes, but none are that difficult to setup (imho). That said I can't speak to canadian requirements, here in the US you can just add a converter to a residential service.
@@jar944 Thanks for the info. When you say over 5hp it becomes more economical, is that based on the cost of the motor and running it? I would have thought even anything under that hp would still operate more efficiently on 3 phase, albeit with diminishing returns.
Buy low sell high!
Man i wish i could do that! 🤣
Ive had a few bad experiences with auction sites ,such as mislabeled machines . Example ; i bought a 10hp 3 phase that turned out to be 15 hp 3phase my converter will only run 10 hp . I got lucky and was able to get a full refund. (very rare)with auction items its buyer beware..
I have a couple more bad storys but my advice is, if you're not willing to drive and pick it up yourself, dont bid..
Great advise @billystray7007! I guess for some machinery you will be able to research all the specs, but not all. Thanks for watching.
Individual choice for sure.Second hand or brand new.for me always reasonable priced brand new.i am a professional.Cannot trust some bodys second hand :) Keep up the good work and stay thirsty my friend !
I totally agree. As a business owner, it often makes more sense to spend the money on a new machine. I'm a pretty crappy buisness man though, so i've got a mix of old and new! 😆
@@brycecomerwoodworks same here Sir.More of a craftsman than a business. I forgot to mention hope you got a air assisted ?
@@Technogodd I'd like to say yes, but no, it's just airless. My plan though is to add air assist with a new gun & hook it up to the shop air.🙂
Used