Thank you for making this. You have done a really great job of editing it! I am in the same boat as you were. I have been stuck on the V5/ V6 plateau for about 3 years now so it is super relatable content for me. I also tried Emil’s routine, although admittedly only once a day but was surprised and impressed with the results. Excited to see what else you try!
Thanks for your comment! I think the 6 hour rest period has been helpful so far. I just now need to keep training and working in other styles of training to see gains.
Great video! I want to stress the importance of hangboarding not just for strength but the mind and muscle/tendon(?) connection on our body. When we hangboard especially on max hangs, we are exposing our fingers to a much heavier load on a safe environment. This allows your brain to understand that "okay my fingers can handle this type of weight" which may translate to confidence in reaching nasty crimps on the walls. Another point I want to mention is emil stated that when hangboarding, we are approaching the hold statically but most of the time on the wall, we either throw our hands to the holds dynamically or lock off to a reachy hold. To practice this, go to a campus board and apply contact strengthening. hope this helps! im currently doing max hangs every other day and board climbing/campus boarding twice a week.
Great points! I think the mind and tendon connection is often understated and certainly something I havent really wrapped my ahead around but certainly think an improvement in that could improve climbing ability
As a newish climber, I have definitely noticed the brain->body barriers you are talking about. Really forced myself to try hard on a crimpy boulder outside my comfort zone, went back a few days later and it was like I was twice as strong. Some of it is definitely technique, but some is just the body realizing it can handle these stresses that it just hasn't been exposed to.
Awesome experiment! Props to sticking to it for the full 30 days. I'm curious how much of your gains came from improving your peak capacity vs. improving your finger health to better tap into that capacity. Psyched to see your progress when cycling this training with consistent bouldering, climbing outside, or more performance-focused training. Six months from now I expect to hear you're an "average V7 climber" ;) Next video - Average Climber Replaces the Rafters in Garage After Hangboarding for 60 Days Straight
Nice video, my dude. Here's my experience from no hangs for what it's worth.. I saw Emil's video back in the fall/ winter of 2020. I did the no hangs regularly 2x per day for 2 months, leading into the spring season. In March 2020 I started working a crimpy/ techy 13a. Sent around March 15 and also sent the other 13a and 13b off the same start. Those are the hardest grades I've climbed. Went on to have a nice season sending another 50ish 5.12's. Going into the season, my fingers felt strong! They were also very injury resistant. I know there are many factors that went into my relative success in 2021, but undoubtedly, the no hangs helped!
Wow, you're holding 125 lb on the 20mm edge. Even at 90lbs your strength is high and you're only climbing as a v5/V6 you might want to explore improving the strength of your lats, rotator cuff, rear delts, and shoulders and possibly flexibility
I agree, your finger strength surely isn’t holding you back at that grade. I’m also climbing v5/6 at 165lbs and max hang 7s is 48lbs so maybe I have something to gain from trying this for 30 days🤞🏻
@@rasmusnyholm1231 I think that could be true. But I also think it's a case of I just haven't tried that many V6s and V7s. I'm only projecting my first one! I should try way more of them.
Fingers are almost certainly not what are holding you back the most, at least when it comes to peak force. Standard metric is 7 seconds for the lattice dataset, or 10 for PCC, but even so your finger strength when adjusted for 1 hand based on interpolated lattice data is likely in the V8-V10 range peak force.
I think you're forgetting his injury history. Certainly having repeated finger injuries has held back his climbing gains. So improving his finger health should help him progress more consistently moving forward. You raise a good point though - maybe his finger strength is so above average for his grade because he relies too heavily on his fingers instead of the larger muscles for hard climbs. If this is the case, climbing harder for him is still all about..... improving technique! I'd recommend everyone read "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes" by Dave Macleod.
@@mattgoldman1556 I think you came around to my thoughts in the end there. If you have fingers that meet a typical V10 standard but bomb off V6 (appx 24% less finger strength required on avg) and get injured with a higher frequency than avg it stands to reason that there may be factors like overtraining (thus keeping his effective strength lower than is actual peak strength, thus injury prone) and/or technique deficiencies, especially when considering technique could be described as transferring force from other sources to reduce the force needing at each limiting factor. To your point however, and I think it is a really good point, it is worth recognizing that many people will default to a worse form excessively hyperextended DIP crimp position because the mech advantage is higher even though its much riskier on the fingers and their true good form half crimp and/or open position strengths are far below the standard they believe. In that case what I said initially about fingers not holding him back could be wrong in the sense that he climbs the right standard for his good form strength and its pushing outside of those boundaries that increase the injury risk and maybe training better form intentionally could be a real benefit. Its a good reminder how technically difficult climbing is rather than a pure numbers game. Good book rec as well.
Struggling at V6 despite climbing for years and even hangboarding, it seems to me the finger strength is not your current limit typically. The best way to progress dramatically is getting good motivated climbing friends that ideally climb a grade harder than you. Climbing mainly alone or with partners that are not so keen on progressing is a pretty good way to stagnate yourself.
Thanks Nate for this video. Saw the one from Emil a year and a half ago. Tried his protocol but without a real investment in it. I'm also an average climber, quite old now (57) but your video convinced me to go further in the Emil's protocol. My age will probably be the reason why i will have to train much than one month to see improvment in my finger strength. But as Emil said if it not hurts, it will strengthen my tendons. Thanks also to Emil and his brother for the video made years ago even if they collected some criticisms concerning the results. Your video shows that it's worth the try. Thanks also for the last comment about the fact you've inceased your hangboarding ability and not specialy your climbing ability. Even if i think that you should be stronger on crimps holding... Best regards from France
Building strong fingers is essential to climbing harder, but that strength is not effective if you can’t apply it to holds. This means strengthening your arms, shoulders, back, and core at the same time. Your body is a system that needs to work together to pull yourself up the wall. Remember to hangboard with engaged shoulders and scapula and throw in core exercises and pullups
Would love to see you try a 30 day climbing specific core challenge……I get the whole system works together, but the best gains I have made in climbing has always come from increasing my core workouts , both in frequency and intensity. I have this debate often with friends but I stand by the idea that the core exercises are the most important to a climber. What good is finger strength if you can’t maintain body tension through out the move? Just an idea. Great video , subscribed.
Hey man I noticed on your hand injury diagram that you’ve had a cyst removal surgery? I’ve been dealing with what my hand therapist calls a seed ganglion for several months now. Causes pain when loading the finger unless I’m warmed up enough. Is that what you were dealing with? Did the removal help? I’m told it’s supposed to go away on its own but it doesn’t seem to be..
Greetings from Chicago! I climb at that gym often haha, I'm so surprised to see a really great climbing video with footage taken from the same gym I climb at!
Hey! I was traveling that week and I couldn't believe how nice that Movement is! I wanted to do a lot of the roped climbing, but only bouldered. the walls are so high there!
Hey good vide!! I really like the final punctuation about getting strong at hanging, not climbing! Climbing in itself is a complex sport with multiple factors to take into account. Btw I have a question, so when doing this month hanging experiment and climbing at the gym, where you trying any other type of hang, explosive finger excercise or any kind of stimulus to the finger tendons rather than just climbing??? thanks beforehand!!
Thanks for your comment! During this month, I only hangboarded statically as shown in the video, and did bouldering (both on boards like the moon board or tension board, but also just general bouldering on the gym routes). I did not campus board or do any explosive finger exercises.
I'm not sure that you got stronger ; you did 21 sec on a plastic sharp edge 10mm at the end and around 10 sec on a wooden edge 10mm at the start? There is a huge difference between those two edge that could explain the 10sec gap. Also not the same hangboard for the 20mm start and end test If I remember and you did it in a open-hand position. Friction is huge in open hand position because skin can really bite into the edge :)
Awesome! What is the exact intensity of the no hangs that you did? Emil's is saying that he is holding like 80% of his bodyweight. But i think this can be very misleading. Because 80% BW for Emil I think translates to roughly 35-40% of his max. But 80% of BW for someone else with weaker fingers could translate to 60% of max. This difference isn't huge if you are hangboarding once or twice a week. But if you are hangboarding every single day it can accumulate to a significantly different intesity. I am trying this now every day or every other day strictly at 35% of max. The way I am doing this is I calculate my max on every grip I am using and then i calculate my 35% on that grip type and I use a scale below my hanging to make sure I do the correct value. 35% is surprisingly low. For my case 35% intensity translates to roughly 50% of my bodyweight on half crimp or 3 finger drag. But when it comes to 2 fingers it is much less. I also like to play wth front3 and back3 fingers. I thought I would share this observation about the 'actual intnesity' for people that are interested
Thats an interesting thought, and honestly I didnt think about force much during my training as much as I thought about my body weight. I just did my no hangs by feeling like I was close to lifting myself off the ground but still in the ground!
Honestly, I think I have strong fingers (statically), but need to improve my contact strength (dynamic grabs on small holds). I've been practicing board climbing the past few months, and it's really humbling. I also think a lot of my training lately has been indoor because it's winter and once I start climbing outdoor more I may see some jumps in grades.
@@Natemitka Hey, Nate, aspiring climbing coach here.🙂 How are your pullups and one-arm lock-offs? A good test for someone around your level is whether or not you can do a palm-in lock-off with the bar tucked by your chin. If that's not too bad, how about a 90-degree bent-arm lock-off done grabbing the bar with whatever grip feels most comfortable (for many, more of a neutral grip works best, with palms away being the hardest position)? I ask, because it's super important to know whether fingers are a weakness at all. If you have trouble pulling between holds and locking-off on something like a 40-degree Moonboard, this can create the appearance of poor contact strength. "Darn, if only I could have grabbed that hold quicker!" It may be that the real problem is that your body is already losing tension and essentially falling away from the wall as you attempt to make the grab. If you fill me in on some of the results of the tests I mention above, I'd be happy to give you my opinion on what form of training would be most likely to help you improve. At this point in my coaching career, I'm getting pretty good at diagnosing and fixing my own performance plateaus, but I am eager to find out whether the principles I've developed for myself generalize to other climbers. Cheers!🍻
Thank you so much Adam! I havent thought about this. I dont think im particularly good or strong at pullups or lock offs (I can do 10 pull ups off the couch before touching the floor but cant do anything close to one arm). Next time Im in the gym Ill check this out and test my lock offs and pull up strength!
@@Natemitka Cool. I've since watched the video of you working on your V6. I find it somewhat amusing that you actually mention your hands, like they're the source of some problem. I think the only problem they're to blame for is you not realizing how much more the rest of your body should be contributing. I'm calling this Strong Finger Syndrome. I am a "patient" myself, but I can tell you, there is hope!😂
About doing the hangboard session every day, do you also do it after a hard session at the gym? I usually skip the days when I feel my fingers are still tired/stressed.
Basically the point of this routine (based on the study) is to load the tissues for about 10mins every 6h. If you've just done a climbing session (whether it is hard or easy), it's useless to do the routine an hour after because the refractory period isn't over. With the same idea, try to space your routine at least 6h before your climbing session. Personnelle on rest days, even if my fingers feel tired I'll do the routine with very very light loads
Yes, I tried to keep in mind the 6-hours of rest as referenced in the study. So when I hangboarded in the morning and bouldered in the afternoon, I skipped the final hangboard so I could keep resting adequately.
Thanks! Are you talking about the hangboard at the end of the video that I did my final test on? I didn't construct that one! But I believe somebody attached two rigid 90-degree metal bars onto the back of a sheet of plywood so that it can hook onto the parallel bars.
Hmmm.🤔 So, no-hangs on a hangboard make you stronger at hangboarding but don't necessarily turn you into a crusher on something like the Moonboard or your gnarly outdoor project? I'm well familiar with Emil and Felix's (the brothers Abrahamsson) original protocol and Dr. Hooper's first and second analyses thereof. It is very much still an open debate on what the best way to explain the results is. However, as an aspiring climbing coach, I offer the following recommendation: Do your no-hangs on something that more closely matches the type of climbing you want to improve. For me, this has been a 40-degree Moonboard. I've been working no-hangs and max-strength pull-ons using a group of holds holds that I've selected from the Moonboard at my gym. As a result, I've seen good gains in my ability to actually climb it. Five weeks ago, I couldn't do a single move on the board, but now I've taken on a V3 (2019 hold set) project and have already managed to stick the first move! Almost all of the other moves seem totally doable as well. Note that, like a hangboard, the Moonboard can be used for traditional max strength protocols. Just pull on and hang from holds that you find challenging. Put your feet on whatever holds feel most natural. As long as there is some consistency in terms of the holds you use and the way you position your body, some amount of relevant improvement is almost unavoidable.
I like that thought! I feel like training things that replicate what I want to improve at (overhang climbs, mantels, crimps, whatever it might be) is always a good idea
It may be that a lot of your improvement are connected to rehabbing old injuries just like Emil. You’ve climbed for many years and accumulated damage as you mentioned. That is one of the critiques, that it’s a great rehab routine not a strength building one.
Id say my local gyms are about 2-3 grades lower than the same grade of climb outside. So a V4 indoors might be a V1 or V2 outdoors. But everywhere is different
id like someone whose a v4-v6 climber to do a 4 month training protocol that involed circuit/kilter/moon board and mostly calisthenics (concentration on upper back, core and arms focused) routine/regiment hopefully designed by strength and exercise scientist plus other vetted calisthenics voices in the sphere like chris heria to see if that plus the hang board training can push ppl passed plateus significantly more than just indoor bouldering for 2-3 times a week
There are only 3 principles in training that you can alter no matter what the sport is. Frequency (how often) Volume (how much at a time) Intensity (How hard) They need to come in this order. Otherwise you have a huge risk to injuries. In this 30 day test of yours you basically tought the body to train a little bit every day and as doing so you immediately got good results. When you can handle this kind of pressure towards the body you can start to add a bit more volume. Like doubling the hanging training time once or twice a week. When that si going smoothly you can start to do more intensive sessions. Once a week. Piece by piece you add some more and you will be on a rising path. More from this you can read from Joe Friels Training Bible. Originally it was made for thriathlonists but it has been well adopted in any sports.
Could you be as consistent with training other climbing skills as you were with this. Maybe not twice a day but each time you go to the gym focus on an aspect of your project to improve on. I think the takeaway can also be for your experiment that you are reducing the risk of finger injuries therefore you are able to maintain consistency in your climbing and training.
Its not an original concept, totally, but I’m all for increasing the amount of data we have about how a routine like this may impact climbers of all ability levels! My results may be different than another climber, and I wanted to share my results.
Yeah dude your fingers are NOT your weak link. Don’t need to work those much anymore for now. Make sure you are trying your hardest - seems like this might just be psychological
your loose rock video is causing alot of people to think loose rocks are bad. you should do a video where you talk to climbers and route setters on why some routes have loose rocks and thats ok, and why other routes are more dangerous with their choss loose rocks. there is a huge issues in the climbing world where new climbers remove loose rock and your video i think based off the comments is causing more poeple to think that you should just remove anything loose (which is not at all what you should do). id be hapopy to share more of that ive learned oveer the past 10 years of climbing.
Thats not a bad idea! I cant believe the response of that video, and theres certainly a misunderstanding of people that dont climb. Loose rocks are mildly common with climbing, and I think a lot of people dont understand the inherent risk with climbing in the first place.
i definitely heard somewhere that as climbers we generally over-value our finger strength. i kind of believe it, the things the best climbers i've seen all have in common are stability, flexibility, and endurance. being able to hang on a small edge may help you in a certain type of move but once you hit a sloper, all that work kind of goes our the window.
i feel you brother on the training.. its honestly all do weird ive been climbing for 2 years now my max lead is about 12c and i probably can do a v5 max but i think im at the point where i probably need to train to get better but also ive noticed the uppper climbs are about core tension and technique im not really sure where to go but i might start hangboarding n working out
I disagree with your conclusions, Hooper's explanation is much more plausible. This routine is good for making your fingers healthier but not for making them stronger. Finger problems have been preventing you from using your full finger strength and by following this routine you can now use 100% of your strength. Personally I've followed this routine for a month and have been a lot weaker afterwards, so I don't recommend it to anyone unless you have health issues with your fingers. By the way there is a big difference between having better results on hangboard and having stronger fingers. Only when your mental game (you're able to hang with 100% of effort) and hanging technique are perfect and the conditions stay similar you can talk about finger strength gains. If you're just better at hangboarding and your finger strength hasn't improved at all, then it's no surprise that your climbing performance is not affected. When doing hangboard training you should be looking at gains in 10 years perspective, so any claims of huge finger strength improvement in a month are just total bull****
I hear you, but I think my fingers did get stronger. The max hang weight increase and 10mm timed hang doubling is evidence of that. I just don't think it translates directly to climbing. And I definitely think this routine is as much about finger health as it is about finger strength, but as Emil mentioned in his video, and Hannah Morris Bouldering, and a lot of other RUclipsrs who have done this routine, the dataset on this routine is very small, so everyone is likely to have different experiences.
There's no way you're actually making your fingers stronger with fairly low volume and very, very low intensity, yeah. Something else happened and your performance/perceived finger strength will probably regress to the mean, all else being equal, just like it did for Emil who never improved his performances. To be fair Emil did disclose it but yeah it's totally bro crap science.
I've been climbing for 9 months now and am projecting v8/9 on kilter, v8/10 on my gym's set, and can also project an easier v9 in my style outdoors. Alot of people i know asked how i got so good so fast and it was honestly just having a training plan with an emphasis on my weaknesses and having alot of intention in every climbing session, also I have really good genetics,worked with a coach for a few months now and center my entire life around my climbing. I wouldn't say these kind of results are normal by any means but the average person could definitely get alot out of just having set intentions for each session and and a little off the wall work. Also try really hard alot of the stuff that i project i rarely can do most of the moves individually for the first day or 2
Are you slow? This is literally quote from the study "From the background provided above, a series of recommendations can be developed to maximize performance, decrease the risk of tendon/ligament injury, and/or accelerate return to play." It is literally talking about TENDONS, tendons are in FINGERS, fingers are used for CLIMBING. So it's closely related to all 3 things you said it's not. I have no idea what you mean. Please explain yourself because you can't be this dumb.
I believe the foreigner said he was climbing the same amount while he was hang boarding. Seems like you didn’t. Might have affected your results. Great vid bro!!!
I know you admitted it, but that was the WORST interpretation of the study possible and I worry you'll give off the wrong impression to viewers. The study was not about "gains" but about how tendons are resistant to stimulus quickly and have a refractory period for COLLAGEN SYNTHESIS and TISSUE HEALTH.
Yes, I know :( I should have been more succinct in my mention of the study. I think my main takeaway from the study was the 6-hour of rest time between tissue stimulus. It's definitely not about gains, more about tendon recovery. Thank you for your comment!
Hey man, very well made video and happy to see you try out the protocol. Keep up the good work!
So happy to hear that! Thank you for making the original video that served as the inspiration!
Super high quality vid, channel gaining some steam. Keep up the good work nate!
Thank you for making this. You have done a really great job of editing it! I am in the same boat as you were. I have been stuck on the V5/ V6 plateau for about 3 years now so it is super relatable content for me. I also tried Emil’s routine, although admittedly only once a day but was surprised and impressed with the results. Excited to see what else you try!
Thanks for your comment! I think the 6 hour rest period has been helpful so far. I just now need to keep training and working in other styles of training to see gains.
I started climbing recently and am very enjoy seeing videos like this it’s really helpful
Excellent point at the end. Great video!
Thanks! Yeah it was interesting how it didn't immediately translate to climbing gains.
Great video! I want to stress the importance of hangboarding not just for strength but the mind and muscle/tendon(?) connection on our body. When we hangboard especially on max hangs, we are exposing our fingers to a much heavier load on a safe environment. This allows your brain to understand that "okay my fingers can handle this type of weight" which may translate to confidence in reaching nasty crimps on the walls. Another point I want to mention is emil stated that when hangboarding, we are approaching the hold statically but most of the time on the wall, we either throw our hands to the holds dynamically or lock off to a reachy hold. To practice this, go to a campus board and apply contact strengthening. hope this helps! im currently doing max hangs every other day and board climbing/campus boarding twice a week.
Great points! I think the mind and tendon connection is often understated and certainly something I havent really wrapped my ahead around but certainly think an improvement in that could improve climbing ability
As a newish climber, I have definitely noticed the brain->body barriers you are talking about. Really forced myself to try hard on a crimpy boulder outside my comfort zone, went back a few days later and it was like I was twice as strong. Some of it is definitely technique, but some is just the body realizing it can handle these stresses that it just hasn't been exposed to.
Awesome experiment! Props to sticking to it for the full 30 days. I'm curious how much of your gains came from improving your peak capacity vs. improving your finger health to better tap into that capacity. Psyched to see your progress when cycling this training with consistent bouldering, climbing outside, or more performance-focused training. Six months from now I expect to hear you're an "average V7 climber" ;)
Next video - Average Climber Replaces the Rafters in Garage After Hangboarding for 60 Days Straight
Nice video, my dude.
Here's my experience from no hangs for what it's worth..
I saw Emil's video back in the fall/ winter of 2020. I did the no hangs regularly 2x per day for 2 months, leading into the spring season.
In March 2020 I started working a crimpy/ techy 13a. Sent around March 15 and also sent the other 13a and 13b off the same start. Those are the hardest grades I've climbed. Went on to have a nice season sending another 50ish 5.12's.
Going into the season, my fingers felt strong! They were also very injury resistant.
I know there are many factors that went into my relative success in 2021, but undoubtedly, the no hangs helped!
Awesome to hear that!
Wow, you're holding 125 lb on the 20mm edge. Even at 90lbs your strength is high and you're only climbing as a v5/V6 you might want to explore improving the strength of your lats, rotator cuff, rear delts, and shoulders and possibly flexibility
Love it. I think there is a lot I need to work on that isn't finger boarding to improve my climbing abilities!
@@Natemitkanot to be that Guy, but it might also just be a case of not trying Hard enough on v6/v7s? I often give up way to quickly on harder climbs
I agree, your finger strength surely isn’t holding you back at that grade. I’m also climbing v5/6 at 165lbs and max hang 7s is 48lbs so maybe I have something to gain from trying this for 30 days🤞🏻
@@NatemitkaI think the best option is just to spam hard climbs every session. Ur finger strength is above v10 already.
@@rasmusnyholm1231 I think that could be true. But I also think it's a case of I just haven't tried that many V6s and V7s. I'm only projecting my first one! I should try way more of them.
Nice work, Nate, you are killing it!
Fingers are almost certainly not what are holding you back the most, at least when it comes to peak force. Standard metric is 7 seconds for the lattice dataset, or 10 for PCC, but even so your finger strength when adjusted for 1 hand based on interpolated lattice data is likely in the V8-V10 range peak force.
That's good to hear. I think I need to work on a lot of other things to start seeing more improvements on the climbing wall.
I think you're forgetting his injury history. Certainly having repeated finger injuries has held back his climbing gains. So improving his finger health should help him progress more consistently moving forward. You raise a good point though - maybe his finger strength is so above average for his grade because he relies too heavily on his fingers instead of the larger muscles for hard climbs. If this is the case, climbing harder for him is still all about..... improving technique! I'd recommend everyone read "9 Out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes" by Dave Macleod.
@@mattgoldman1556 I think you came around to my thoughts in the end there. If you have fingers that meet a typical V10 standard but bomb off V6 (appx 24% less finger strength required on avg) and get injured with a higher frequency than avg it stands to reason that there may be factors like overtraining (thus keeping his effective strength lower than is actual peak strength, thus injury prone) and/or technique deficiencies, especially when considering technique could be described as transferring force from other sources to reduce the force needing at each limiting factor. To your point however, and I think it is a really good point, it is worth recognizing that many people will default to a worse form excessively hyperextended DIP crimp position because the mech advantage is higher even though its much riskier on the fingers and their true good form half crimp and/or open position strengths are far below the standard they believe. In that case what I said initially about fingers not holding him back could be wrong in the sense that he climbs the right standard for his good form strength and its pushing outside of those boundaries that increase the injury risk and maybe training better form intentionally could be a real benefit. Its a good reminder how technically difficult climbing is rather than a pure numbers game. Good book rec as well.
@@sheepborg you are implying the half crimp position and the open grip position are "better form" than the full crimp position, which is wrong
Struggling at V6 despite climbing for years and even hangboarding, it seems to me the finger strength is not your current limit typically. The best way to progress dramatically is getting good motivated climbing friends that ideally climb a grade harder than you.
Climbing mainly alone or with partners that are not so keen on progressing is a pretty good way to stagnate yourself.
Thanks Nate for this video. Saw the one from Emil a year and a half ago. Tried his protocol but without a real investment in it.
I'm also an average climber, quite old now (57) but your video convinced me to go further in the Emil's protocol. My age will probably be the reason why i will have to train much than one month to see improvment in my finger strength. But as Emil said if it not hurts, it will strengthen my tendons. Thanks also to Emil and his brother for the video made years ago even if they collected some criticisms concerning the results. Your video shows that it's worth the try.
Thanks also for the last comment about the fact you've inceased your hangboarding ability and not specialy your climbing ability. Even if i think that you should be stronger on crimps holding...
Best regards from France
Building strong fingers is essential to climbing harder, but that strength is not effective if you can’t apply it to holds. This means strengthening your arms, shoulders, back, and core at the same time. Your body is a system that needs to work together to pull yourself up the wall. Remember to hangboard with engaged shoulders and scapula and throw in core exercises and pullups
Would love to see you try a 30 day climbing specific core challenge……I get the whole system works together, but the best gains I have made in climbing has always come from increasing my core workouts , both in frequency and intensity. I have this debate often with friends but I stand by the idea that the core exercises are the most important to a climber. What good is finger strength if you can’t maintain body tension through out the move? Just an idea. Great video , subscribed.
that garage beam shifting when you hang onto it scares me
It's a rental haha
Awesome! You’re a decent hang too
Hey man I noticed on your hand injury diagram that you’ve had a cyst removal surgery? I’ve been dealing with what my hand therapist calls a seed ganglion for several months now. Causes pain when loading the finger unless I’m warmed up enough. Is that what you were dealing with? Did the removal help? I’m told it’s supposed to go away on its own but it doesn’t seem to be..
Greetings from Chicago! I climb at that gym often haha, I'm so surprised to see a really great climbing video with footage taken from the same gym I climb at!
Hey! I was traveling that week and I couldn't believe how nice that Movement is! I wanted to do a lot of the roped climbing, but only bouldered. the walls are so high there!
Hey good vide!! I really like the final punctuation about getting strong at hanging, not climbing! Climbing in itself is a complex sport with multiple factors to take into account. Btw I have a question, so when doing this month hanging experiment and climbing at the gym, where you trying any other type of hang, explosive finger excercise or any kind of stimulus to the finger tendons rather than just climbing??? thanks beforehand!!
Thanks for your comment! During this month, I only hangboarded statically as shown in the video, and did bouldering (both on boards like the moon board or tension board, but also just general bouldering on the gym routes). I did not campus board or do any explosive finger exercises.
I'm not sure that you got stronger ; you did 21 sec on a plastic sharp edge 10mm at the end and around 10 sec on a wooden edge 10mm at the start? There is a huge difference between those two edge that could explain the 10sec gap. Also not the same hangboard for the 20mm start and end test If I remember and you did it in a open-hand position. Friction is huge in open hand position because skin can really bite into the edge :)
Hangboard has definitely improved my climbing.
did you do any warm-up exercises before you started hangboarding?
Awesome!
What is the exact intensity of the no hangs that you did?
Emil's is saying that he is holding like 80% of his bodyweight. But i think this can be very misleading. Because 80% BW for Emil I think translates to roughly 35-40% of his max. But 80% of BW for someone else with weaker fingers could translate to 60% of max. This difference isn't huge if you are hangboarding once or twice a week. But if you are hangboarding every single day it can accumulate to a significantly different intesity.
I am trying this now every day or every other day strictly at 35% of max.
The way I am doing this is I calculate my max on every grip I am using and then i calculate my 35% on that grip type and I use a scale below my hanging to make sure I do the correct value.
35% is surprisingly low. For my case 35% intensity translates to roughly 50% of my bodyweight on half crimp or 3 finger drag. But when it comes to 2 fingers it is much less.
I also like to play wth front3 and back3 fingers.
I thought I would share this observation about the 'actual intnesity' for people that are interested
Thats an interesting thought, and honestly I didnt think about force much during my training as much as I thought about my body weight. I just did my no hangs by feeling like I was close to lifting myself off the ground but still in the ground!
Bro your fingers are so strong for the grade. Curious as to when you’re climbing, what you think is holding you back from sending most of the time?
His footwork. In the video, you could see his heavy foot. You need solid light foot to climb on these sandstone.
Honestly, I think I have strong fingers (statically), but need to improve my contact strength (dynamic grabs on small holds). I've been practicing board climbing the past few months, and it's really humbling. I also think a lot of my training lately has been indoor because it's winter and once I start climbing outdoor more I may see some jumps in grades.
@@Natemitka Hey, Nate, aspiring climbing coach here.🙂 How are your pullups and one-arm lock-offs? A good test for someone around your level is whether or not you can do a palm-in lock-off with the bar tucked by your chin. If that's not too bad, how about a 90-degree bent-arm lock-off done grabbing the bar with whatever grip feels most comfortable (for many, more of a neutral grip works best, with palms away being the hardest position)? I ask, because it's super important to know whether fingers are a weakness at all. If you have trouble pulling between holds and locking-off on something like a 40-degree Moonboard, this can create the appearance of poor contact strength. "Darn, if only I could have grabbed that hold quicker!" It may be that the real problem is that your body is already losing tension and essentially falling away from the wall as you attempt to make the grab. If you fill me in on some of the results of the tests I mention above, I'd be happy to give you my opinion on what form of training would be most likely to help you improve. At this point in my coaching career, I'm getting pretty good at diagnosing and fixing my own performance plateaus, but I am eager to find out whether the principles I've developed for myself generalize to other climbers. Cheers!🍻
Thank you so much Adam! I havent thought about this. I dont think im particularly good or strong at pullups or lock offs (I can do 10 pull ups off the couch before touching the floor but cant do anything close to one arm). Next time Im in the gym Ill check this out and test my lock offs and pull up strength!
@@Natemitka Cool. I've since watched the video of you working on your V6. I find it somewhat amusing that you actually mention your hands, like they're the source of some problem. I think the only problem they're to blame for is you not realizing how much more the rest of your body should be contributing. I'm calling this Strong Finger Syndrome. I am a "patient" myself, but I can tell you, there is hope!😂
About doing the hangboard session every day, do you also do it after a hard session at the gym? I usually skip the days when I feel my fingers are still tired/stressed.
Basically the point of this routine (based on the study) is to load the tissues for about 10mins every 6h. If you've just done a climbing session (whether it is hard or easy), it's useless to do the routine an hour after because the refractory period isn't over. With the same idea, try to space your routine at least 6h before your climbing session.
Personnelle on rest days, even if my fingers feel tired I'll do the routine with very very light loads
Yes, I tried to keep in mind the 6-hours of rest as referenced in the study. So when I hangboarded in the morning and bouldered in the afternoon, I skipped the final hangboard so I could keep resting adequately.
I'm gonna give it a try
Do it!!
Great vid! Mind if I ask, how did you attach the hangboard to the two parallel bars?
Thanks! Are you talking about the hangboard at the end of the video that I did my final test on? I didn't construct that one! But I believe somebody attached two rigid 90-degree metal bars onto the back of a sheet of plywood so that it can hook onto the parallel bars.
@@Natemitka Yes, ruclips.net/video/iMUf5TYfIxc/видео.html, thanks. :) Yes, it makes sense. Thank you!
Hmmm.🤔 So, no-hangs on a hangboard make you stronger at hangboarding but don't necessarily turn you into a crusher on something like the Moonboard or your gnarly outdoor project? I'm well familiar with Emil and Felix's (the brothers Abrahamsson) original protocol and Dr. Hooper's first and second analyses thereof. It is very much still an open debate on what the best way to explain the results is. However, as an aspiring climbing coach, I offer the following recommendation: Do your no-hangs on something that more closely matches the type of climbing you want to improve. For me, this has been a 40-degree Moonboard. I've been working no-hangs and max-strength pull-ons using a group of holds holds that I've selected from the Moonboard at my gym. As a result, I've seen good gains in my ability to actually climb it. Five weeks ago, I couldn't do a single move on the board, but now I've taken on a V3 (2019 hold set) project and have already managed to stick the first move! Almost all of the other moves seem totally doable as well. Note that, like a hangboard, the Moonboard can be used for traditional max strength protocols. Just pull on and hang from holds that you find challenging. Put your feet on whatever holds feel most natural. As long as there is some consistency in terms of the holds you use and the way you position your body, some amount of relevant improvement is almost unavoidable.
I like that thought! I feel like training things that replicate what I want to improve at (overhang climbs, mantels, crimps, whatever it might be) is always a good idea
So the method of hanging at 10 seconds on 50 seconds off for 10 rounds is not to failure on that 10 seconds on? How close to failure would you go?
Informative. Ty
It may be that a lot of your improvement are connected to rehabbing old injuries just like Emil. You’ve climbed for many years and accumulated damage as you mentioned. That is one of the critiques, that it’s a great rehab routine not a strength building one.
Yeah, I think I'm getting better at avoiding injuries just as much as I am at improving my finger strength.
How does your outdoor climbing grades compare to indoor climbs? I've only really climbed indoors so I don't know how they differ.
Id say my local gyms are about 2-3 grades lower than the same grade of climb outside. So a V4 indoors might be a V1 or V2 outdoors. But everywhere is different
@@Natemitka Ok thanks. Yeah I’ll have to try outside some time and see how they compare where I am.
Good luck!
id like someone whose a v4-v6 climber to do a 4 month training protocol that involed circuit/kilter/moon board and mostly calisthenics (concentration on upper back, core and arms focused) routine/regiment hopefully designed by strength and exercise scientist plus other vetted calisthenics voices in the sphere like chris heria to see if that plus the hang board training can push ppl passed plateus significantly more than just indoor bouldering for 2-3 times a week
There are only 3 principles in training that you can alter no matter what the sport is.
Frequency (how often)
Volume (how much at a time)
Intensity (How hard)
They need to come in this order. Otherwise you have a huge risk to injuries.
In this 30 day test of yours you basically tought the body to train a little bit every day and as doing so you immediately got good results. When you can handle this kind of pressure towards the body you can start to add a bit more volume. Like doubling the hanging training time once or twice a week. When that si going smoothly you can start to do more intensive sessions. Once a week.
Piece by piece you add some more and you will be on a rising path.
More from this you can read from Joe Friels Training Bible. Originally it was made for thriathlonists but it has been well adopted in any sports.
Do you have a hang board affiliate link? Or a beginner recommendation
Great idea. I'll work on it ;)
Could you be as consistent with training other climbing skills as you were with this. Maybe not twice a day but each time you go to the gym focus on an aspect of your project to improve on.
I think the takeaway can also be for your experiment that you are reducing the risk of finger injuries therefore you are able to maintain consistency in your climbing and training.
I definitely need to be more consistent with climbing days. A good routine is so helpful.
Was that Movement in Chicago?!
Yeah it was at the end!
5:57 i mean this makes sense. if you want to improve your max deadlift you don't max deadlift every day!
I've tried the Emil protocol, now I have both wrist tendonitis...
very original video title and concept lol
Its not an original concept, totally, but I’m all for increasing the amount of data we have about how a routine like this may impact climbers of all ability levels! My results may be different than another climber, and I wanted to share my results.
Yeah dude your fingers are NOT your weak link. Don’t need to work those much anymore for now. Make sure you are trying your hardest - seems like this might just be psychological
your loose rock video is causing alot of people to think loose rocks are bad. you should do a video where you talk to climbers and route setters on why some routes have loose rocks and thats ok, and why other routes are more dangerous with their choss loose rocks. there is a huge issues in the climbing world where new climbers remove loose rock and your video i think based off the comments is causing more poeple to think that you should just remove anything loose (which is not at all what you should do). id be hapopy to share more of that ive learned oveer the past 10 years of climbing.
Thats not a bad idea! I cant believe the response of that video, and theres certainly a misunderstanding of people that dont climb. Loose rocks are mildly common with climbing, and I think a lot of people dont understand the inherent risk with climbing in the first place.
i definitely heard somewhere that as climbers we generally over-value our finger strength. i kind of believe it, the things the best climbers i've seen all have in common are stability, flexibility, and endurance. being able to hang on a small edge may help you in a certain type of move but once you hit a sloper, all that work kind of goes our the window.
i feel you brother on the training.. its honestly all do weird ive been climbing for 2 years now my max lead is about 12c and i probably can do a v5 max but i think im at the point where i probably
need to train to get better but also ive noticed the uppper climbs are about core tension and technique im not really sure where to go but i might start hangboarding n working out
Love it! I feel like when you hit that limit it feels like there needs to be a change in stimulus
I disagree with your conclusions, Hooper's explanation is much more plausible. This routine is good for making your fingers healthier but not for making them stronger. Finger problems have been preventing you from using your full finger strength and by following this routine you can now use 100% of your strength. Personally I've followed this routine for a month and have been a lot weaker afterwards, so I don't recommend it to anyone unless you have health issues with your fingers. By the way there is a big difference between having better results on hangboard and having stronger fingers. Only when your mental game (you're able to hang with 100% of effort) and hanging technique are perfect and the conditions stay similar you can talk about finger strength gains. If you're just better at hangboarding and your finger strength hasn't improved at all, then it's no surprise that your climbing performance is not affected. When doing hangboard training you should be looking at gains in 10 years perspective, so any claims of huge finger strength improvement in a month are just total bull****
I hear you, but I think my fingers did get stronger. The max hang weight increase and 10mm timed hang doubling is evidence of that. I just don't think it translates directly to climbing. And I definitely think this routine is as much about finger health as it is about finger strength, but as Emil mentioned in his video, and Hannah Morris Bouldering, and a lot of other RUclipsrs who have done this routine, the dataset on this routine is very small, so everyone is likely to have different experiences.
There's no way you're actually making your fingers stronger with fairly low volume and very, very low intensity, yeah. Something else happened and your performance/perceived finger strength will probably regress to the mean, all else being equal, just like it did for Emil who never improved his performances.
To be fair Emil did disclose it but yeah it's totally bro crap science.
I've been climbing for 9 months now and am projecting v8/9 on kilter, v8/10 on my gym's set, and can also project an easier v9 in my style outdoors. Alot of people i know asked how i got so good so fast and it was honestly just having a training plan with an emphasis on my weaknesses and having alot of intention in every climbing session, also I have really good genetics,worked with a coach for a few months now and center my entire life around my climbing. I wouldn't say these kind of results are normal by any means but the average person could definitely get alot out of just having set intentions for each session and and a little off the wall work. Also try really hard alot of the stuff that i project i rarely can do most of the moves individually for the first day or 2
Just FYI, the study you cite has nothing to do with climbing, finger strength, or tendons.
Are you slow? This is literally quote from the study "From the background provided above, a series of recommendations can be developed to maximize performance, decrease the risk of tendon/ligament injury, and/or accelerate return to play." It is literally talking about TENDONS, tendons are in FINGERS, fingers are used for CLIMBING. So it's closely related to all 3 things you said it's not. I have no idea what you mean. Please explain yourself because you can't be this dumb.
I believe the foreigner said he was climbing the same amount while he was hang boarding. Seems like you didn’t. Might have affected your results.
Great vid bro!!!
Really doubting that a guy with a youtube channel about climbing is an "average" climber. Lmao
Fair enough! I find a lot of climbing content includes really strong climbers, like climbers sending above V10! Which is not me :)
“Average” has never been and never will be 5.11+/V4!!!
Still
Stellar video!
Haha. Yeah, average is different. But thanks!
Your technique might be really bad 😂or maybe you can’t even do a pull up I don’t know but fingers are not the problem haha
I know you admitted it, but that was the WORST interpretation of the study possible and I worry you'll give off the wrong impression to viewers.
The study was not about "gains" but about how tendons are resistant to stimulus quickly and have a refractory period for COLLAGEN SYNTHESIS and TISSUE HEALTH.
Yes, I know :( I should have been more succinct in my mention of the study. I think my main takeaway from the study was the 6-hour of rest time between tissue stimulus. It's definitely not about gains, more about tendon recovery. Thank you for your comment!
This video could have been 2 minutes zzzzz