Neurotypical Hate - Is it OK?
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2024
- Is hating and discriminating against neurotypicals or allistic individuals all good? Today we are exploring the cause and impact of othering neurotypicals in such a fashion
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Its not like the hate against nts is coming out of a vacuum, it comes from years of discrimination
The should be held accountable for it, at the least.
Sometimes from straight-up eugenics. Some neurotypicals (but not all) want to eradicate autistic people's very existence. The lines that define neurotypicality can blur.
I am also SO tired of the communication barrier. Sometimes, neurotypicals will snap at me and be really impatient with me because I didn’t understand what they were trying to say/had to ask for clarification on what they meant and they’re rude to me because of it, but even when they’re not rude, it’s so frustrating trying to communicate with them because they think they understand what I’m trying to say and will respond to what they think I meant, not what I actually meant, and I’ve been having suicidal thoughts this weekend because I’m just so tired of it and don’t know how much more I can take.
I hope it gets better soon
Hugs to you. I am sorry you feel like this. I hope that you can feel better.
Stay strong. So many of us know what you're going through.
Thank you guys. It does help to know that I’m not alone in this.
I’m here for you. 🫂
I certainly don’t hate them, but I’m totally fed up with not being my natural authentic self just to make them feel better.
Then don't. Stop trying to people please.
It never works out anyway.
@@autumnpendergast9151 That’s what I mean, I can’t do that and I can’t mask anymore now that I know my true identity.
@@tracik1277 same.
Same here. But now that I know there's no way I can act unauthentically enough to please them, I don't try anymore. Some people will like you for who you are. The rest don't matter.
Yeah, why is it mostly me that has to accommodate the others and not the other way round?
I agree with this in general, but you have to remember that a lot of NT hate comes from the trauma that many if not most of us receive from NTs in our lives, at home, school, work, etc, some of which is completely unintentional on the part of the NTs who either may not know of our neurodivergence or know but don't know enough about how to interact with us in a positive, productive way.
I agree that a lot of this is a trauma response. like if you get bit by a dog, you could be afraid of all dogs. I struggle with that, but mainly toward blind NTs. I'm working on that in therapy.
It’s often INTENTIONAL. They fire people who come out as autistic and request accommodations. They literally don’t let us make a living we deserve to make and also ban us from immigration in many countries. They do it intentionally with hatred.
Exactly. The channel "the musings of my audhd brain" did a great video on this subject titled "why does it seem like autistics don't like neurotypicals?" where she breaks down in detail for a neurotypical commenter why autistic people in online spaces seem to have, as that user described it, "a hate problem."
In real life, I am extremely kind to NTs, but after all the horrific trauma I've endured, I think its only natural for me to want to vent my frustrations about societal ableism in spaces where my feelings will be heard, recognized, and accepted. The autistic community provides me reassurance that I simply cannot get from neurotypicals at times because they don't fully understand what I went through or what I need to hear.
@@LilChuunosuke I saw her video on that and agree she really did a great job explaining that.
Yeah, totally. I feel the same way about white people. 97.3% of my trauma is due to white people so, you understand, I feel very antipothetical about them. It's not my fault. It's the fault of white people I don't know and have never met.
It's not hate it's sadness and anger and disbelief at the years of abuse and neglect i and countless other autists have experienced. I have spent my entire life trying to connect with others and the message is clear, they don't want to.
My cousin recently found out she was autistic at 60 years old. She thought she was a neurotypical person who was doing everything wrong. I'm glad she encountered the right people, because she very well could have ended up not finding effective ways to deal with her anxiety. She's doing pretty well now, and her family's figuring stuff out. I think everyone else in the immediate family is neurotypical.
I do think people encounter a lot of what ideally should be in-community conversation outside the community, which removes necessary context. Thank you for talking about this.
I don't hate them. I have resentment about how many of them were so mean when I didn't even know that I was autistic or WHY they were so - yeah, HATEFUL sometimes for reasons I couldn't figure out.
I don’t think the problem is neurotypicals. The problem is that the world is designed for a certain kind of brain and processing. If you are different from that then life is more difficult.
I don't think the world is _designed_ for neurotypicals, but I'm pretty sure education is; so autistic people tend to do bad in school which affect self-steem, confidence, limits their potential, and put them in a downward spiral where is very difficult to get out.
However adult life is more balanced.
Adult life demands routine, NTs hate routine and become depressed by it, autistic people like routine; and many jobs are well suited for autistic traits (like being able to focus, attention to detail, the ability of research extensively about something without getting tired, etc.)
Imho, just fixing the education system would fix most of the issues that autistic people experience (I recognize that I may be wrong, because I was able to get ahead in life even with my autistic traits because my special interest happened to be programming).
...Designed by Neurotypicals 😕
So far, I never got actual hate; but more than enough devaluating comments. Even from therapists, along the lines of "you can do eye contact, your autism isn't that bad". Or, from NTs, when I try to explain my struggles, "that's stuff we all have to deal with".
It's often frustrating...
How funny that this video should pop up... I was just sitting here with my hands in my face, feeling sorry for myself, because at my work place, I am the only autistic person surrounded by allistic coworkers. Despite me having the most skill and seniority, I'm treated like a scapegoat. Or a problem. At this very moment, I am angry at the allistic world but I know they're not doing it on purpose. Why am I always the one who has to meet everyone else's social standards when they won't even budge an inch to meet me in the middle?
Sorry, I had a rough day.
It’s hard not to feel angry at them. I feel so much anger, hatred, and resentment towards them and it eats me up inside. *hugs* I don’t have an answer because I’m going through the same thing but wanted to validate your pain because I know how hard it is❤️
@@marionprepon7145 It does help. And yeah... the more I ruminate on what happened, the more I'm able to write down about it... But I don't know if I should present this to my boss or keep it to myself.
@@syntheticcelery34 I definitely relate to the ruminating, I’ve been ruminating a lot lately. And to be honest, I’m not entirely sure if it’d be beneficial to report it because you might be gaslit and invalidation, which can lead to further traumatization, but ultimately, it’s you who’s in the situation and can read the room and vibe and know what’s right. It’s definitely good to stand up for yourself, so it could be 50/50🤷♀️
They are doing it on purpose
They just all defend each other at the same time all at once and outnumber you
Counterpoint: we are terribly underemployed, our needs are constantly unanswered, and we are invalidated in our life experiences and forced to "not be ourselves" (masking) just to survive in the world NT's have made.
I do believe the animosity is well deserve. It's not ok for people to tell other demographics to "stop acting so black," or "stop acting so gay." Then why is a free pass given when they tell those on the spectrum to "stop being so weird?"
The problem is people don't having enough information about autism. They would not act like that if they knew.
@@luisoncpp The very NT's that apparently 'would not act like that if they knew' do not like when being criticised/challenged/judged on their own behaviour, but think it ok to do this to others 😂
This is a lame excuse. The NT world and mindset for the most part is discriminatory and evil.
Could not agree more with this statement. Until nuerotypical society acknowledges the issues instead of pretending they don't exist - or stops projecting their own meaning onto it when they don't know what they're talking about - I won't be a fan of them and they absolutely should be called out for it.
@@luisoncpp I do agree with this for the most part, however...
The information is there. It's a few taps on their precious phones away. They just don't care about it because it doesn't affect them.
I can't blame them for that, but when the systems in place seem to support their bullying and do nothing to protect us, that's what I have a real problem with. If I must inflict torture upon myself to make a living, at the very least I'd like to be taken seriously when some predatory creep is making that more difficult for me. If they can't accomodate us, don't make us work.
I take people on an individual basis, so this obviously is not all NT's. The issue is more with their systems and expectations, and the lack of regard for what that can cost a disabled person. If hatred is being bred here, they're practically feeding it miraclegrow. Change is needed, and for that to happen we need to make it clear that none of this is acceptable.
The question is, how do we do that peacefully?
Along with being autistic, I am Black and queer. Thinking about this from a Black perspective, I'd likely be put on flame for saying that I *hate* White people, cus what did White people do to deserve hate? And within my queerness, what did straight cis people do to deserve it? Creating polarities of ingroup-outgroup are wholly exclusionary to folks who don't fit within the boundaries of that ingroup or outgroup, along with just being so unnecessary. It's not individual white or cishet or neurotypical people's faults for existing as they are, it is the systems in place that create oppression; that social division is artificial and only leads to more divide if we fail to recognize the humanity between us all.
Extremely well said, thank you for this 🙌🏻
Yeah, I don't think it's okay to hate the neurotypicals or allistic people just because they're different, I mean, that's the opposite of celebrating diversity! And how can autistic people demand to be included and respected if we're not giving the same back to others? No, I think an understanding for each others strengths and weaknesses, how different ways of thinking can supplement each other, is a much better way to go..
And yeah, of course there'll be a~holes along the way, but that's not because of their neurotype, that's their personalities.. Even though I've had difficulties making and maintaining friends, doesn't mean that they're bad people, not at all, there's so many good, caring souls out there but it's the haters that shouts loudest and therefore gets more attention.. So yeah:
💜 Where is the love? 💜
It's out there, we just got to come together and show that it is love and understanding that makes the world go 'round and that diversity is the best way, and by diversity I mean all neurotypes..
Thank you Thomas, for yet another amazing video with an important message and great thoughts! 💜✨️
The hate isn't because they're different, the hate comes from the constant mistreatment from them. We also shouldn't put all the responsibility of the NDS to show love to NTs who refuse to give it to us. I've seen many NDs get mistreated by a NT even though the ND was being kind. NTs have to meet autistic people in the middle.
This is so true. ❤
I am so glad seeing an opinion from a place of compassion and understanding❤ However from my standpoint I have experienced mainly onesided attempts at understanding people, as in, I am trying to make sense of what others around me say, feel etc, but it didn't go the other way around as much as I would have wished for it to be. BTW can anyone suggest any forums or any kind of virtual community sites or what be for a neurospicy boi like me? XD (the neurospicy part is a joke of course, but I am autistic though
🌟
So pleased u made this video. I hear a lot of negativity pointed out that allistic people should just get and understand Autistic people and pointing the blame or making personal remarks. These comments are usually made from trauma or bad experience as they are treated poorly whether intentionally or not, but they sadly overgeneralise. I am neutral on this topic though as I try and see both points of view.
They’re exhausting! They always want someone to prove something to them. And they’re too busy trying to tell us everything! 😂 Now it’s “help them understand.” WHY?! So they can go do nothing with that information?! …but be like, “Cool story, bro.” Me:😒 Meanwhile, we’re the ones who are disabled-vying for someone to help us:
1) live
2) keep a job
3) maintain a relationship
4) get proper medical care
5) get through school
6) etc.
Like, google it first; then share what you learned-come to the table with something! I am not google! And my energy is limited! BE PREPARED TO PUT THE INFO TO GOOD USE IMMEDIATELY. I’m all out of spoons, but I have other cutlery and I will use them! 😂
The audacity of ableism is truly otherworldly.
I don't hate them but I want a break from them sometimes. Like sometimes I just want to play a game with other people without having someone "hilariously" playing wrong and being disruptive on purpose, but if I ever want that I'm a "gatekeeper"
Thank you for advocating against hate! ❤
I understand what your saying Thomas because I went through a period of time when I was sort of saying negative things about the NT population after watching new age spiritual videos that was claiming that autistic people are these special beings who are playing an important role in the spiritual evolution of humanity. And I feel embarrassed on how I acted back then, and one of the things I would of told my younger self is to not act egotistical about being autistic, and that me along with the rest of the autistic population are imperfect just like how the rest of the human population is imperfect.
Beautifully said.
This should be approached like most all forms of marginalization and oppression.
Which is to say it's not about blanket hating people of an identify, but rather hating the underlying societal hegemony, cultural assumptions, power dynamics, etc.
Women shouldn't hate men, they should hate patriarchy and misogyny
POC shouldn't hate white people, they should hate white supremacy and racism.
LGBTQ+ people shouldn't hate straight cis people, they should hate cisheteronormativity and homo/transphobia.
And neurodivergent people shouldn't hate neurotypicals, they should hate a neurotypical-normative society and ableism.
Of course people of the privileged identities are more likely to uphold said systems out of naivety, if not be active outright bigots themselves -- and based on the material context of their beliefs and actions it's appropriate to be frustrated or hateful towards said individuals. But that's nuanced and contextual on a case by case basis -- as opposed to a generalization.
Yes, this. Exactly.
One of the greatest failings the last few generatios is an expectation that everybody has to like everybody. It is simply not true. I was bullied by a woman a good generation younger than me recently. I said "I rub a lot of people up the wrong way, and about 50% of people don't like me. And that is fine."
It completely threw her off her mission. You have probably seen memes about Gen X. We seriously don't care if you hate us. We were undiagnosed and dangerous.
Expecting no one to hate, be hated, everyone to like each other,is a the greatest weakness of this narcissistic online era.
You do not have to like everyone and not everyone has to like you. You do not have to like a trait. You do not have to like someone elses beliefs, politics, world view, religion ,stature. Anything. If you are upset about something, feel it and process it.
Do I hate the woman who bullied me? No, but I don't like her, or her issues beinv dumped at my feet. I mostly feel sorry for her. She loathes my existence. 3 reasons, I am talented, weird, and happy. I really don't care. Hate away haters!
The idea of an autistic messiah cracked me up.
Well said, Thomas. This is such an important topic.
I've been rather disconcerted by the amount of hate towards neurotypical and/or allistic people on some subreddits, and I will never stop calling it out. It's one thing to vent and say overgeneralised things in anger to a trusted confidant with the implicit understanding that you are just angry, but broadcasting that same rhetoric where thousands of people will likely see it is just not helpful at all. It also annoys me that people often seem to make a Motte-and-Bailey by first presenting a harder to defend idea like "neurotypicals are stupid/nasty/untrustworthy", with a bunch of the comments jumping on the hate bandwagon, only for the OP to then say "Oh, but I only meant some, not all or most" if someone pulls them up about their unhelpful, overgeneralised rhetoric. If that's what you really mean, then SAY WHAT YOU MEAN. Don't contribute to unnecessary division. Attack those who actually hurt us, and not an entire group of people just because they were born that way. That's bigotry.
Then there are the excuses that we get treated like crap by a lot of neurotypicals so we should do the same (unhelpful, and hypocritical if you at all value fairness), and also talk from some people that calling out needlessly inflammatory rhetoric is defending an oppressor. It can be important to vent, sure, but it is not a big ask to simply add a clarifying word like "some" when making broad statements about neurotypicals.
Why is there no pressure for them to stop being bigoted towards us?
@@hemlocktea6643 While there probably isn't enough pressure in general society given the rampant ableism around us, we have various advocates, ordinary people, the autism awareness/acceptance movement, the neurodiversity movement, legislation against discrimination over disabilities etc. There needs to be more pressure, but to suggest there is no pressure at all seems very hyperbolic.
Well, starting with any hate being not okay, there are problems born of frustration. Our frustration of having to communicate to brain networks that seem not to want to bother unless the efforts are made effortless for them, irrelevant of how difficult it can be for us - and how endlessly exhausting. If we cease making the extra effort, then we are regarded as lazy and unworthy of attention, even brainless. I make the analogy of neurotypicals being downloaded, at birth, a 'Press/Play' button, whilst we get a graphics desk with a multitude of buttons, levers and view screens, all unlabelled, and we have to write an instruction manual as we go along. We continue writing this manual for the rest of our lives until the pen drops from our nerveless fingers. Instead of 'Press/Play' we do like the LaPlace's Demon and we have to investigate every turn of the road, every signpost, every bush, every step of the way, leaving no bird unstoned. We have to deal with this heavy mind traffic every waking moment because that is the way our brain's neurology is set up and we see life with no detailing dismissed. That can be maddening, especially if we are dismissed as lazy!
Yes. I’m so exhausted of having to try to communicate with neurotypicals, to the point of having suicidal thoughts because of it. They think they understand me and will respond to what they think I meant, not what I actually meant. I’m just so tired, I don’t know how much more I can take.
@@marionprepon7145 I've been through those thoughts. Neurotypicals - or anthropochaotics - are not worth your extinction. Fight it. Extinguishing yourself is giving in to their ignorance.
Good analogy. It's annoying how they think we're stupid despite the fact that most engineers and scientists are us (I'm a software engineer). Apparently there's a theory that autistic people aren't socially inept whilst communicating with other autistic people (I think it's called the double bias theory or something like that.). Emotions come across just fine. The way we communicate is only considered strange to the NT people. Our way is not inferior, it's just different from theirs but they're under the delusion that their ways superior.
Imagen if we saw languages like that "woah that guy's speaking German. He doesn't communicate like we do. He must be stupid".
@@marionprepon7145 I hope that you got that last message as some stupid senseless RUclips bot seems to have removed it. Take care of yourself and don't give in.
@@someuser4166 Exactly. It's all linguistic diversity. I've used the same analogy on Quora.
Hi Tom. I tip my hat to you for a superbly presented & cogent essay🎩 I'm going to post a link to it on my community page. I'd like us to talk off RUclips if you're up for it. Mike's got my details, so feel free to give me a shout😊
Human interation is complicated
This is a much needed conversation and I'm glad you brought it out in the open! Thank you!
Great topic - Very complex and deep. Been thinking about this a lot. The thing is, NTs are dangerous to autistic people. Perhaps we are dangerous to them as well. Especially when there's little or no common ground for dialog and thus understanding.
When I first received my diagnosis a couple of years ago, I was full of hope. Hope that I finally understood myself and my needs and behaviors and emotions. I thought this meant that I could simply TELL people
"Guess what? I'm autistic! Bright lights hurt my eyes, so I wear hats and sunglasses most of the time. Harsh sounds hurt my ears so wear headphones. I'm OK one on one with people, but I tend to monolog about my interests. I cannot function well in groups unless I am leading them around a topic of interest to me. I'm extremely smart about some things, but have enormous deficits when it comes to social skills. I'm a kind, honest, loyal, and loving person as long as my autism is recognized and accommodated"
...not realizing of course that I lost 99% of them after I said "I'm autistic" lol.
Yet I STILL persist in disclosing my autism! Maybe that stubbornness is part of my autism. I look at being upfront about my diagnosis as essential for several reasons.
1) The only way I'll ever be accepted and supported for who I am is if I tell people who I am and what support I require.
2) Telling people I'm autistic also educates people about autism. The most common reaction I get is "You don't seem autistic" or some variation of the whole 'high functioning" trope. Yeah, well, game on....I was an architecture professor for many years (buildings remain a passion) When I encounter ignorance, I'm pretty good at dispelling it - in person, face to face. Online creates problems because it's criticism feedback channels are narrow and public. This creates misunderstandings and posturing that is unhelpful.
3) Disclosing my autism and educating people about autism in general and my support needs in particular serves as an excellent screening tool for friendship. Far too often I and other autistic people are taken advantage of and exploited by bad actors - usually neurotypical, but not always. I've encountered a number of undiagnosed but clearly autistic / nuerodivergent people who suspect they are autistic, but are too fearful, arrogant, shame-filled, or self hating to pursue a diagnosis, or even to educate themselves about autism. I've found these people to be far more toxic as friends than good willed but ignorant NTs. It's the old "beware what the preacher preaches most stridently against - for it is his own sin" saying. I have very limited bandwidth for friendships. I'm 60, and as I've aged, this bandwidth and my bandwidth in general has diminished greatly.
All of this is to say that NTs are a problem, but they are not THE problem as it were. THE problem is a lack of awareness, understanding, compassion, and goodwill in BOTH directions, and even between members of the same neurotype. This is part of the human condition. As a tiny minority of the population, it's unwise to try to impose our views or make unilateral demands on the dominant neurotype. Mainly because it wont work. It will only result in further misunderstanding and strife, and as the less powerful group, we will lose out. We need the cooperation and respect of GOOD neurotypical people to work with us to gain the respect and accommodations that are human rights. The best way to do this is to point out that everyone benefits from an inclusive, accepting, compassionate society, not just those with disabilities and differences.
I suppose what we need to do as autistic people is to be highly selective when socializing, but to give everyone an equal chance to show that they are a good person. By "good" I mean (unschooled NTs) genuinely open to learning about autism, and genuinely fond of autistic people and our traits. After that, and between self-aware and self accepting autistic people it comes down to what all human relationships come to:
Mutual respect. Encouragement. Trust. Support.
Love.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on self-hating undiagnosed (or diagnosed) autistic people. I've encountered this personally IRL, and online, and I find it deeply tragic - and vexing. Can such people be brought into the fold? Do self accepting autistic people have a responsibility to help those lost souls, or is it none of our business? What if it's someone you are close to? What if it's a former romantic partner? Given the potential harmful and even deadly consequences of unsupported autism, this is not a trivial matter.
Again, deep and difficult topic. Vitally important.
Thank you Thomas.
Also, Thomas Edison ripped off Nikola Tesla’s inventions and both were believed to be autistic so that’s an example of how autistic people can harm each other.
@@marionprepon7145"I have a (...) that he’s autistic"
So... he doesn’t know that he’s autistic but you do?
The problem is that the word "autistic" doesn't say a lot, so if you tell them that you are autistic you don't really give them a lot of information.
You can tell them that you are hyper sensible, or that you have a strong special interest, etc. , and maybe after they understand all of that, tell them that those are autistic traits.
I am a great believer in most people are good no matter their neurotype, I will assess each person I meet on a person by person basis... I tend to outwardly get on with most people I meet. in the past lots of people there have been some that just don't seem to like me or get me. I'm fine with that because my life is full of beautiful people Autistic and allistic. I believe there are more good people in this world than bad. And I am always open minded to others. Doesn't mean I agree with them but I stay away from needless conflict. 😊
I don't hate a neurotypical or "other" them until they give me a reason to (a good chunk of them have).
Honestly, what you're touching on here is a very old debate in many marginalized circles, and if you look up "Respectability Politics" you'll end up with a lot of interesting perspectives on all sides of the issue.
mmhm... this is the exact same kinda stuffi hear in Black and queer community
People are just people. Anyone can be very nice or a total asshole. I've meant plenty of neurotypical (I hate using that term) who were very nice to me, and some who are assholes. And people with autism are no different, they can also be raging asshole, or very nice people.
I don't even like using the term Aspie, neurotypical, nerodivergant because it instill group think. Like I said, people are just people. I'll treat everyone the same.
There was an Australian business women (ADHD) on another podcast who referred to NT people as being beige. This is not the type of approach that is needed to create a closing of the divide.
The NT are the ones who have to close the divide not us
They started it they always do
Thank you!!! It reminds me of this children’s story in which a rabbit ends up killing the hunter but in doing so he does too become the hunter. This impressed me a lot when I was a kid… to this day.
Yes! Autistic community should respect neurotypical people. We are not some kind of Nazis who divide people by their individual traits. Anyone who articulate hate towards neurotypicals is compromising our community perception by other social groups. We need our own code of ethics to regulate such things inside the community and to make our community more consistent and understandable for others.
I agree with everything you said.
Hate is fine as long as we don't act on it. We get to hate our oppressors as a group. We don't get to hate individuals. Hate is born out of oppression. People need to stop policing how people react to bigotry.
My mother used to always tell me that "hate" is a strong word, and today I can understand that, now. I used the word loosely, to be frustrated by, but not to hate. So no, I don't hate people who are not autistic. I've certainly had a very difficult life and finding acceptance in society, but that was more on a lack of social support for people with my particular needs. Today, I navigate the world much better and have enjoyable encounters with people from all walks of life. I see a similar, increasing distaste for others, especially certain others from the LGBTQIA+. T4T or trans 4 trans in part comes from negative experiences with non-trans folk. It is understandable to protect ourselves from hurt, but it is also important to not split this issue into all good, all bad. To me, it is all ambiguity, worth being curious about more than anything else.
They seem to hate us
Yup. It's low key discrimination.
@@laurensa.1803 Like the lgbtq they pretend too
It comes down to which NT's we can trust and we are safe around.
Thank you, I fully agree with you. I believe that we very often get back what we give. Hate and you will be hated. Love and you will be loved. Yes, this is grossly oversimplified, and does not always apply, but it is something we have control over and that increases our chances of a healthy interaction. And trying to act more with love towards my fellow beings has had a very positive effect on my health as well.
And yes, I sometimes struggle. My sense of justice leads me to fight, when people are treated unfairly and when I am not careful, I get hard and unyielding. Even more so when I am scared. But I do my best and have adopted the mantra "Love is the Answer" from my favorite musician to remind me to be gentle and open minded, but firm when neccessary instead.
It's really brave to stick to your guns, explain your position and not censor yourself. Honestly hats off to you mate.
Personally I largely agree: any talk of _privilege_ and so on just boils my piss, as they say. There's nothing to be gained by being confrontational with NT intellectuals if you're having a conversation, discussion or debate on an equal standing.
There only area where I would tend to slightly push back would be the assumption that in any sense we _are_ equals. Yes I know that sounds like Foucault crap but that's not quite what I mean. I'm talking really just about informal power, not some _deep_ kind of power. Basically...... whatever "the autism community" or any individual or group says or does, *there are* going to be movements like /r-cringe or whatever, and they're not merely gently mocking: they want to roll back the law. Their beef is that we're a politically motivated special interest group (see what I did there lol) that's out to steal their resources and impose upon their lives with our silly 'accommodations'.
For us to react to that simply by being nice and taking it might be very noble in important ways, but I honestly don't think it's unreasonable, _given that these things exist and that they matter_ , if some of us say "I just knew that neuro-typical doctor was going to misunderstand what I was saying and jump to horrible conclusions about me". Not only is it trivially true, it's also true in more important ways: there _are_ patterns of discriminatory behaviour that really do make us unsafe.
I'm seeking a formal medical diagnosis right now at age 49. Why? I won't get any social security, I won't get preferential treatment in hiring or anything like that. My reason's darker: if some time some copper takes against me, and I say "if we're finding it hard to understand each other's motivations, it could be because I have a neuro-developmental condition that creates _precisely that outcome_ so please bear with me and I promise I'll try to be as helpful as I can", what I *don't want* is for them to say "pull the other one it's got bells on it - we're going down the cells".
Of course having a _proper person_ vouch for you doesn't guarantee that won't happen anyway, but in light of the Lucy Letby case, I don't want to _assume_ there's a limit to the capricious cruelty of a world driven by _muh feelz_
But the broad thrust of what you say is absolutely spot on: the last thing we need is to make ourselves into a _competing_ minority group pitted against every other group in society.
I also feel a little bit like you're giving a nod and a wink in the direction of "I don't automatically want anything to do with the rest of the politics of the thought leaders of The Movement". Absolutely, hear here. I hate those people too, no matter which faction of the Evil Empire Party they carry water for.
I don't hate them. I've had a few NT go to great lengths to assist me. i simply do not have time for the ones who use my disabilities against me.
I appreciate this perspective. Good video. Thank you.
Whilst I'm not okay with prejudice and discrimination, I think that all minorities deserve a space to let off steam about the system and the ways in which the system fails them. I think a lot of what comes across as "NT hate" is simply ND folk expressing frustration at their experiences. Like your example of a non-english speaker expressing frustration at how the UK is built by and for those who speak English. It's okay for us to express our frustration at living in a world built by and for allistic people.
First off, broadly speaking, I agree with you. However, the issue is definitely nuanced. I also think it's important to consider who is expressing NT-hate, why, and in what context.
I think it's fair to say that nearly all autistic people have some degree of trauma as a result of living in a society that does not cater to or accommodate autistic people. That may be largely a result of ignorance rather than malice, but the trauma that results is real. Many of us are late-diagnosed or late-discovered, so we've spent much of our lives trying to adapt to neurotypical society, getting hurt along the way, and not understanding why. Then we learn about autism and now we have an answer that explains why we have struggled and suffered all these years. And we spend time talking to others in the community, sharing our experiences, and realizing that our communication style actually makes sense to other autistics. This collective realization leads to understanding our struggles in a particular framework: that of ableism, neurotypical privilege, etc. We see systems of oppression as the force behind our suffering, and that makes us angry and resentful. Because it didn't have to be like this, and we didn't deserve to be treated so poorly.
So, I think a lot of what we're seeing is emotional processing of trauma. An important part of trauma processing is acknowledging the reality of the trauma and the seriousness of its impact on us, rather than minimizing it. It's acknowledging our feelings as valid and situationally appropriate. After trauma processing has occurred, there tends to be a lot less anger and grief. But I think, collectively, we are in the early stage of trauma processing, because we've only just realized what's been happening. Moreover, we haven't actually fully escaped the trauma yet. We've just begun to recognize what's been happening all these years. And that puts us in a place emotionally to be driven by that anger and pain and resentment.
Secondly, I think there's a bit of nuance being lost about what ideas people are actually expressing. While I'm sure some people are actually directly expressing hate towards neurotypicals, I think many of us are actually only expressing hate towards the systems of oppression (cultural norms) that neurotypicals perpetuate. That doesn't automatically imply hating NTs. In the same way that I can hate patriarchy without hating men, or hate systemic racism without hating white people. I can hate the way neurotypical society systematically hurts autistic people, without hating neurotypicals as a group.
As much as we like to be precise in our language, we are still capable of failing to express ourselves with adequate nuance. In our anger and pain, we may express a frustration with NTs in such a way that sounds like it's painting all NT's with the same brush, when in reality, we are only angry with the ones who are problematic and making our lives miserable. Of course, there are also those who miss that nuance, and will overgeneralize to all NTs because of their negative experiences with a subset of them. Although there absolutely are great NTs out there, when you have significant communication barriers, it can be hard to even recognize that potential allyship. So I think we're seeing a mix of these things; both over-generalized resentment and nuanced anger and frustration that's simply being expressed sloppily.
Lastly, you have to consider the context of the speech. Are we screaming hate at the NT's themselves? Or are we just venting to one another within our community, and it just happens to be that, because the internet is a public forum, people who are not members of the community are able to observe these conversations?
I absolutely agree that when it comes to advocacy, we will catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and that a big part of the obstacle we face is simply ignorance. And I think we should do what we can to approach neurotypicals in general with a presumption of good faith and just try to educate.
But we also need our own space to vent about our traumas. It's like when you're having issues with a partner, and then you go to vent about it to a friend. You don't worry about wording yourself in the most gentle and respectful way when talking about your partner, because they're not present. You wouldn't necessarily say these things to their face, because you would care about their feelings, and be sure to include a lot more nuance when talking to them directly. But when you're just talking to your friend, you can kind of just leave out the nuance and detail in order to express the emotions and get validation for the emotions. Because the point of the conversation is not to have a well-rounded, reasoned discussion about the situation - it's to get emotional support from your friend. And I think a lot of what we're seeing in online autistic spaces is autistic people looking for emotional support from one another. It's not meant for the eyes and ears of neurotypicals. They're not supposed to be part of this conversation.
great video. My thoughts are that society is largely ignorant of the prevalence of ASD, many especially older autistic people are as well. When people’s behaviour towards us can be explained by these issues and they still don’t want an info upgrade there’s a problem :)
I think Autistics need spaces where we can vent off our anger and frustrations. I agree that treating all NTs like they are out to get me is also not productive. For example I’m a cis woman married to a cis man. Life would really suck for him if I treated him like a misogynist pig every day. Sometimes I have to explain things to him about being a woman in a patriarchal world but I do it with kindness.
I don’t hate neurotypicals truly. Sometimes, I might hate them. I definitely prefer animals to people, especially normal people who are neurotypical, not goth, not vampires or alternative, etc, at least, in some ways.
What I do hate about neurotypicals is how particular and fussy some of them are around social norms, rules and what’s socially acceptable and what isn’t socially acceptable, and also how self conscious some can be when with autistics who are acting autistic. Like, just chill out, let us be ourselves and learn to be okay with it and love/like us all the more for it and just have a good time. Is that really that hard?
I struggle to understand the ways of neurotypicals.
I dont hate them. I pity them for having emotions cloud their logic and block progress in every aspect.
At 0:44 you are so correct!
Since most of my friends are NTs, I can hardly hate them as a group. HOWEVER, the whole primate status hierarchy that they set up, absolutely everywhere, I do hate. It is the source of bullying, of exclusion, and of hatred for out-groups. Hate never solved anything, but I do think there is something actually wrong with neurotypicals, on the level of their social instincts. Obviously, autistic people have lots that is wrong with them too, but we do often end up being the victims, and it's only natural that we have a certain amount of resentment over it. Still, choosing love over hate is a lot more important than whether one is either NT or ND, and just as important for both.
Most if not all my troubles were caused by someone else who was neurotypical
Treat them how they treat us
😅So ban them into the margins of society?
@@laurensa.1803 Well we don't have the ability to do that... But just find jobs that are Autism friendly like physical security and cyber security because theirs a lot of us their. We can do other jobs too.. but we just get discriminated against... Then be friends with Autistic and ADHD people and just be polite and formal when we have to deal with Neurotypicals and only become friends with those that put in the same amount of effort that we do.
I don't think any kind of hate or discrimination against people is good, ND or NT. I think it creates cycles of the same, unhelpful opinions and feelings. I do have a lot of anger and opposition to the systems in place that fail, damage or discriminate against autistic folks, and the lack of education (or just straight up misinformation taught). I try to keep that opposition specifically targeted on systems and organizations, and try to keep a bit more of an open mind when it comes to individual so that I'm not generalizing, and that (if I have the spoons to) open calm, respectful, logical dialogue on the topics. ND folks that discriminate or that are ignorant to legitimate information about autism and autistic life experiences are also kind of symptoms of those shitty systems and organizations.
It's very easy to feel resentment and lash out when you're whole life you've felt wrong, wasted time trying to be something you're not and society as a general whole is difficult and unsupported. Change does happen, and anger is justified. But I still think we should deal with those feelings in a better way that discrimination and hate if we want those issues to change.
Edited to add: Despite all that, I do think safe spaces for Autistic folks to vent in the community is a necessary thing, to connect and commiserate on the fact that can be soul-crushingly hard to exist in some spaces because we don't function like NT. Feeling like you're not alone in the struggle can be vital to getting through some of the hardest times.
I got diagnosed pretty recently (I grew up with a diagnosis of brain injury that supposedly gave me ADHD and dyspraxia, with time it became evident that I was gifted, and I ended thinking that I was just misunderstood, recently I reconsidered), and overall I think this is a reasonably healthy community.
I haven't spoted a lot of scapegoating and I see most of the anger directed towards ideas or practices(rather than groups of "privileged people").
I have found many content creators that are autistic and it took me a while to find one of them showing something similar to hate.
The only thing that had been a little bit uncomfortable for me is that a lot of people is very picky with the vocabulary and can get offended if I use the _wrong terminology_ (I know that ablism is an issue, but is so much of an issue that most autism-related terms were coined in a pathologizing/ableist context, so it's hard to speak without using any of those terms or knowing which ones are acceptable and which are not; even the word "autism" has a derogatory etymology).
Ps There’s probably better solutions than getting walked over or reversed discrimination!!!
Othering! Yay 🙌.... Not at all 💯 abused 💯 of the time 🙌🙌🙌
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Love love love. I couldn't agree more. If we hate on them, they will reflect it back to us. It's just how people function, you can't hate your way into being accepted. If you hate on people, they will hate you back.
Pretty much the same arguments as gays hating straights. Same pros, same cons, new topic.
I think a lot of it is venting not hate
I am at a point in my journey where I don't really know to which sphere I belong, but I am so grateful to you for sharing your opinions on this and even a touch inspired.
As well as questioning my neurotype, I am also trans and trans people were doing quite well in gaining acceptance until recently. Unfortunately, an element of over-extension seems to have occurred, which seems to have set us back some time, probably decades.
I do still completely value advocacy, even on those occasions where I don't agree with the point being made, I am grateful when people speak up for me, because it means people like me, in whatever context, are considered and heard, which is a good and necessary thing.
But the purpose of advocacy should be to change opinions as well as inform them. If a person's biological identity is effectively a source of original sin, such that another group always assumes they are at fault, aside from original sin being a dumb idea, what incentive does that group have to change? I am a GenX-er, so I am admittedly old, but I still believe in a better future, and I would prefer to think that it can be achieved through debate, rather than waiting for others to die.
I know there are such things as allies, but that only really works until you say something stupid, so it is (realistically) only a temporary privilege, unless you want to take the position of absolute silence (which leaves you either as a kind of bystander or adopting a position of subservience) As a result, I think the whole concept of 'allyship' is a pretty icky thing to ask of anyone as it seems to leave the ally as a kind of 'half-person' and is therefore just incredibly disrespectful. Okay some people maybe don't deserve respect, but to apply it whole groups on the basis of perceived commonalities, just seems very wrong.
I don't have to do anything for a group I don't belong to or threatens my very existence
I think you need to look at it in the broader context of disability and ability. I think it's perfectly rational for an oppressed minority (disabled folks) to resent their oppressors (abled folks). Like, I don't get upset at communities of color for excluding me and saying that I don't understand the full context of my privilege as a white person. The same dynamic is present between the disabled and the abled.
Love seems like such a beautiful thing until you understand that it exists in coincidence of its opposite. They are interdependent, i.e. he who loves, also hates. "The truth" is beyond approximation, and it certainly can't be conveyed with words. Language is a simulation of reality that literally supplants actuality with a mere abstraction of it. The construct of 'I' prevents unadulterated perception, and it places us in a self constructed prison of our minds eye. As far as I'm concerned, duality is something we must assimilate, and overrule or it will rule us.
make love, not war!
I have asbergers (i know that term is deprecated but that's what's on my papers) I don't hate NT people obviously but I do get annoyed at how they're constantly shaming us for knowing stuff.
Like if you share facts or speak in a more precise manner (what they consider pretentious; I just like to be precise and do things properly if I know how to) they'll respond with 🤓 or something.
I'm tiered of having to censor myself and intentionally say less accurate things (or just talk about trivial stuff like games) just to satisfy them.
I understand if they find the subject uninteresting but they've got no right to attack random people trying to learn / teach things to others. Like the "actually ☝️🤓" ridicule thing. People should not be ridiculed for correcting and preventing the spread of misinformation. If anything that should be encouraged.
I also dislike how easily they can lie 4:57 and ignore morals. Like I said I have a very strong urge to do things properly / right and that includes morals.
@@someuser4166 yep, I know that feeling, but believe or not there are NT that could appreciate the effort of trying to do things the right way.
Imho it's better to just ignore the ones who ridicule your efforts and be glad for the people who appreciate them.
However, I think it's ok to try to find simpler words rather than using a technical language, because when you say something is for others to listen, and it's better if they could more easily understand.
Basically the NT's are the ones that are defective. They feel no need to improve themselves or respect rules or morals.
Engagement.
I see where it comes from but I think its dumb
I allot of the NT hate comes from autistic people who have had unfortunate run ins with cluster b personality types who are untreated, you could say the same about female dating strategy and the manosphere
This is what I wonder because I’ve had really bad experiences with NTs but they also showed red flags before that, which I ignored, so I don’t know if it’s just because I was attracting predatory and abusive types of NTs due to childhood trauma of being raised by narcissists.
Yes.
It's not ok to hate period.
Hope youre well Thomas that's a fun shirt
I agree
Actully it is perfectly ok.
@@autumnpendergast9151 it's not ok to hate on people
@@Sarah-with-an-HDisagree. Its not okay to hate people for no reason. Im not going to pretend I dont hate people who hurt me or others, and it doesn't make me a bad person either.
@@jadynfey7743 what if you're not getting hate but you're just triggered and reacting to that? Would it then appear that you're hating? A lot of autistic individuals have difficulty with navigating this area because there's a lot of grey areas. By all means protect yourself, but last I checked the world is pretty messed up because people end up choosing hate when they feel offended and that's how cycles go on and on and on and sometimes escalate
I get the frustration and us vs them always is pretty bad usually,
so i get the frustration but its wrong to not being able to open up and echochambers arent good. I get the frustrations but never without the still wanting to get alont and coexist,
being frustrated is perfectly fine too, its just horrible messaging to generaloize and us vs them it (i mean you can enjoy likeminded people , and know different people, that a lot actually try?! The enemy is abelism and stereotyping, lets not other than rambling sometimes.)
You all heard it he said he was the autistic Messiah, maybe with a "not" in there lol. Praise Thomas
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I don't hate anyone. But if people make my life harder, then it's defo more difficult for me to love them. For me it's not about a person's neurotype, but rather about the kinds of behavioral incentives and structures existing in a given society, that encourage them to harm others to be indifferent to the harm being done to others on their behalf.
Tho if I'm going to have to preface every rant that involves the term neurotypical, with the disclaimer I just typed out above, then I'm just going to stop communicating with people entirely. This is becoming too much work, and existing on Planet Earth in the presence of other humans already has me exhausted.
Like... I just want to be groovy, and for others to be groovy as well. But so much of what our species has built around itself seems geared towards making life needlessly difficult, complicated, and cruel. From my perspective it seems like modern society is just lighting itself on fire and punching everything around it, then looking towards the things it just punched for an explanation as to why that just happened. It's utterly insane, and completely absurd.
Frankly, I'm quite done with all of it
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This just sounds like more eugenics, who is the neurotypical ubermensch setting the standard?
We understand autism. It’s not a lack of conversation. We hate when people are assholes and hate women etc. Nt or not
One last ps : you’re such a cutie patootie ( not sure that word exists but sounds right for what I mean ).
*Skips video* No.
As a NT, ive always tried to be as acomodating as possible to anyone who is not neurotypical, but i can feel some sort of prejudice cooking up inside me as a response to the videos i get recomended.
The 30 minute essays explaining how the slightest fuck up by a NT is ''so problematic'' while dropping pretty agressive jokes.
Feels like when youre all for feminism but then feminists just start shitting on men and it feels unnecessary.
Just my feelings
Autistic circles unfortunately have been intersected by cancerous feminism
I also don't call myself "atheist" because people will assume I'm on the left,when I'm hard right actually. But nuerodivergent and atheist are far too Marxist leftist, so I've still gotta be careful who I say what I am to.
People will hate me thinking I'm a communist Because I don't believe in or worship any God,same thing goes for ND they get the wrong idea and don't realize I think for myself I don't like propaganda
It doesn't really matter what you hate because you're just going to go suck on a pacifier the second anyone looks directly at you.
If you had no diagnosis, you encountered bullies & jerks; they were not part of any group.
I call it hate-bonding
No it's hate bombing
I think the ignorance and misunderstanding is just huge. It’s normal to feel angry when constantly hurt, but I doubt much of the hurt is malicious. When psychologists who are tasked with diagnosing autistic people and even diagnosed autistic people themselves are sometimes ignorant of the full range of what autism can look like and how to manage it, can we really blame the average allistic? 🫤
I don’t hate neurotypicals truly. Sometimes, I might hate them. I definitely prefer animals to people, especially normal people who are neurotypical, not goth, not vampires or alternative, etc, at least, in some ways.
What I do hate about neurotypicals is how particular and fussy some of them are around social norms, rules and what’s socially acceptable and what isn’t socially acceptable, and also how self conscious some can be when with autistics who are acting autistic. Like, just chill out, let us be ourselves and learn to be okay with it and love/like us all the more for it and just have a good time. Is that really that hard?
I struggle to understand the ways of neurotypicals.
Neurotypicals are very contextual and opportunistic. This makes it very fuzzy to autistic people.