Romans 9: Piper vs William Lane Craig
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Dr. Flowers play a portion of a message on Romans 9 from Dr. John Piper ( • The Mystery of Electio... ) and compares it to a message by Dr. William Lane Craig ( • What Does Romans 9 Act... ) so that the audience may compare and contrast each interpretation so as to discern which approach is more reasonable and consistent with the rest of the scripture.
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My 4 year old's favorite story is Jonah. I've read it I don't know how many times. The point I take from it, in my simple mind, is that the Lord wants that no one should perish.
and the fact that humans are complicated and indeed stubborn to God's will (how do you get determinism from that? Why would God make it the long way round?)
Amen. God wants that none should perish but that all should come to repentance.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo yes. However, that isn't to say that the Lord prefers that. 100% of man is born condemned. This is true. And the wages of this is death.
But according to what I have learned from scripture, His preference is that none perish and that all would come to accept His gracious gift of atonement that He provided through His son's sacrifice. Becoming reborn into a life that is eternally spent in His presence.
@@reynaldodavid2913Jo no you didn't say different. I can see that. Yes, I agree.
Glory To GOD!!!
Paul - Faith is not a work.
Piper - Faith is a work.
Me - I'll go with Paul on this one.
I believe God has to show His mercy on one inorder for Him to come to CHRIST.
No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44 LEB
However, a work can be an act of faith. 😉
@@1974jrod, and that’s what God wants us to do. Our faith produces work. The work proves our faith in God but that doesn’t earn us salvation. Salvation is free and is received by faith. If indeed you’ve received it, some fruits or works will show.
@Mark Haines which verse regarding James are you specifically referring to
@Mark Haines I believe Paul is speaking of salvation, while James is speaking of effective Christian living, i.e., faith without works is dead (what does dead mean here? up for interpretation, perhaps meaning useless to the world and the people in it other than yourself, and useless for making yourself more like what God wants you to be?). Whatever it may be, I seen on conflict between James and Paul, neither have most Christians and theologians for the past 2,000 years. I do not recall James writing that people are saved by their works, but that the works would be proof of their salvation, just as the fruit of a tree is proof of what kind of tree a person is looking at. "Faith without works is dead" is not the same as "Faith without works is a contradiction." A muscle may atrophy, but that does not mean that it is not still there. It's just not useful for anyone. And I've often heard it said that faith is like a muscle, and the more often you use it, relying on it, the stronger it gets. It's all metaphor, but that doesn't mean it isn't about what is real. :) God bless!
Dr. Flowers, THANK YOU for this ministry. It has helped me grow in my faith and biblical knowledge and work through some tough points.
"How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but YOU were NOT WILLING!" -Luke 13:34
"But THEY refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder; THEY stopped up their ears from hearing. THEY made their hearts like flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD of Hosts ..." -Zechariah 7:11-12
There's thousands of Bible verses that proves we have free will...
My most recent discovery studying the claims of Calvinism...
Rom. 7:18
"....for to will is present with me..."
That's paul speaking of himself before Christ.
So much for "no free will" in his unsaved state.
Also 17 times in the kjv the word freewill appears
@@shredhed572 Why else do you think Calvinism is False ?
You all wrongly presume that calvinists do believe in free will. They do believe in free will! Part of the problem is listening to people like Flowers who constantly misrepresent the other side. Sad.
@@jeffreyandrewwinters3719 1 Corinthians 8 11 says those for whom Christ died can still perish. Calvinists will turn around and say perish means temporarily falling into sin but thats not how it's used.
@@stacy2point0
Calvinists say, you freely do what you want to do, bit it a person wants to come to Christ, they can't freely do that, they have to have their desires changed first, but that happens at regeneration to them. So,regeneration happens, their desires change, and then they can freely choose Christ. That is not freewill. Also, I have talked to many Calvinists, and they call people freewillers all the time, in a condescending attitude, and then say freewill doesn't exist. Regeneration doesn't come, until you get the Holy Spirit, and Paul said, after that you heard the word of truth, and believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. You don't get the Holy Spirit until you have believed, and trusted. That is when the regeneration happens, not before you believe, like calvinists teach.
Ephesians 1:13
King James Version
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
It really seems that many turn to Calvinism because they tire of those who water down the Gospel in favor of seeker sensitivity. Thank you for this content, it has helped me a lot because I used to be a Calvinist as well, for the above reasons.
Thats not a reason believers hold to a calvin view point.
Calvins as myself believe that salvation is of the Lord and we are dead to spiritual truth unless the spirit is quicken. In order for that to happen is the Holy Spirit will do it to those who are called.
@@johnjaso385 Hence the term "it really seems". A personal anecdote at worst and my own experience which may be shared by others at best. A probable factor in some people's decision, I never generalized it.
I completely agree... i have found an entire calvanistic reformed church founded on "American Gospel" fleeing the NAR... sure they open the bible. But they have fled one false gospel... to another. I fled NAR. Went there and instantly saw the same type of patterns there as in the NAR
Gaslighting, lying, double speak, and much much more. And the saddest part is i am sure it was not purposeful!! But I fled. Because they were telling me that I needed to wrestle with the topic.. and hit me hard with the re-education....
Calvinism earns a following by taking aim at the easy targets of prosperity preaching and seeker sensitivity.
Because they don't know that there are more options than charismatics and calvinists. A simple look at wikipedia would work wonders. People are stupid 😆
WLC is a treasure!
Great Job Leighton - you are right we are fighting against the current of the internet and the position of what Rom. 9 is actually saying - thank you for your work - spot on!
No matter what you can’t deny what Romans 9 says. God is still saying he is choosing based on mercy and faith. He’s clearly stating God has full sovereignty over man’s will, not man. Which applies to mankind who has faith or who does not -God chooses.
@@anonymoustruth5950 He absolutely chooses. Just not to the pre deterministic view of John Calvin! He has determined those who are in Christ to be saved, not those he arbitrarily decided prior to conception.
Could OT Jews pursue God through the law but with faith?
This seems about as basic as it gets! Not sure why people make this scripture so complicated. WLC explains this very well and makes perfect sense.
Well Drew, when a made up belief is promoted, it's going to have inconsistencies and contradiction.
More and more clarification and explanation will be needed.
You are right. Knowing nothing, hearing nothing, a straight reading of scripture is quite clear.
"Hate," meaning is, " to love less."
Ppl who say these kinds of things are insecure, uneducated and intellectually lazy. God is not simple nor is studying Him. If you think it is, then your faith is simplistic. God deserves better.
@@sheilasmith7779 Do you have an example of a non made-up belief? Let me guess, there are the ones you hold to be true.
@@JAFAtuber Do you have a century to read? What an absurd question. Shall we start with the simple and move to the complex.
Mathematics? 2÷3=5.
Glory To GOD!!!
Thank you so very much Leighton Flowers!
It's amazing how people take parts of a single letter out of context from the rest of the letter. Romans 9 should be viewed in light of Romans 2 as well as the rest of Romans as a whole.
Proof texting.
Proof texting Is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing.
“Stop telling me what the Bible says so I can tell you what the Bible MEANS.”
-A Calvinist (Probably)
Kind of like taking 35 minutes to explain away a 2 minute video?
I thank God for you and your ministry, Leighton!!
Wow Piper equating faith to a form of works is eye opening. I already wasn't a calvanist and already don't enjoy much of what he says but that is eye opening about calvanists.
It's Calvinist. Also, choosing to follow God is a work. It's like a really big work. A really big work that we cannot do by ourselves without God's regeneration of our hardened hearts. Stop strawmaning him in the comments
Q: Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for
common use?
Q: What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath
prepared for destruction?
Q: What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?
It is June '23
This is helpful. So the issue is that the audience was limiting God's plan of salvation (Israel only, Israel All), but then God wants to show that he can choose to widen his salvation to ANYONE who trusts in Jesus.
So, is the issue that the analogies taken from the OT are being misapplied? It seems that this is a common area of scripture interpretation differences.
What you're saying about how can the rebel be deserving of condemnation is exactly the point that Paul addresses of those who question God's sovereign decreeing: "Why would He still find fault for who can resist His will?"
How can this be a fair comparison when it was 2 minutes of the entire exposition made by Piper? 😱 Plus all your interruption and comments hindering viewers from listening straight to what he was saying instead of what you think he was saying? I don't get it. I thought we all value context here.
A great book that addresses many questions is "The Death of Death In The Death of Christ" By John Owen (a Puritan 1616-1683). A google search will bring up a readable version of this book absolutely free. It's a long book and full of scripture. It is kind of old English writing so not everyone will be interested in reading it however it is a really good book with many objections answered.
Calvinism has given me a great appreciation for God's love insomuch that it has driven me away from Calvinism's cruel deception and has fortified my resolve to stand against it.
Thank you Leighton (and team) for standing in the gap to declare the LORD's goodness, and for your care to shepherd our souls to safety! I am ready to stand together with you, my dear brothers! May no more offense be given to the gospel than what has already been done!
I thank God for raising you up and predestining you to this needful cause! Much love and respect. Billy
Actually, I see very little difference between Calvinism and the Catholicism I came out of, especially concerning “perseverance”. I never really “knew”if I did enough to make it! Praise God He delivered me from that thinking and by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone I am wonderfully saved! Faith is NOT a work (Romans 4:5). God doesn’t want robots,He desires those who believe and worship FREELY!
🤮Calvinists posit that we have free will, it's just corrupted by sin, and we cannot escape that and worship God through any action of our own. Only God can unharden our extremely hard hearts to praise Him. Also, God gave us the free will choice of sinning, knowing we'd sin and cause Him to sacrifice His son for our salvation, but He did it anyway. He gave us choices, and we make the wrong choice every time on our own, without His influence at all. He takes the veil of sin away, and we'll follow Him every time we've realized our sin through His changing our hearts, and repent. That's what irresistable grace is. Calvinists simply argue that scriptures present God as sovreign, i.e omniscient and Omnipotent, in our salvation, and he selects His elect based on no work or accomplishment so that none can boast. Stop strawmanning Calvinism; It's so cringey. We aren't robots, and anyone who says we say that we are sounds extremely robotic seeing as it's been said by all of you 'free thinking' Arminians hundreds of thousands of times in every single soteriology 101 video ever. God bless, and I hope He continues working in your life as a born again Christian.
One of these two men is a world class thinker and apologist. The other is sincere in his beliefs - God bless him.
Well said
@soteriology101 Some videos ago, could have been a long time ago, Dr. Flowers mentioned a new Bible commentary that is coming out soon. A review of the book on the common texts of contention would be something I could really look forward to.
God's concern is His glory - the entirety of it.
He sovereignly controlled everything and everyone to display His love.
As you said about another matter, it's not either-or
I am much closer a a molinist than an Arminianist. I am still unsure that any system can be built that fully accounts for God in reality. I think that's intentional for the maximal number of saved individuals.
Also all forms of determinism are self defeating. They break the very thing that's needed for the desired result.
If you believe humans have free will, and you believe he knows subjunctive propositions prior to creation you are a Molinist, if you think it's after for some reason then you are not a Molinist. You can be an Molinist and Arminianist
@@alexjoneschannel I would be a mere molinist for sure.
Calvinism is not determinism. Calvinistic predestination basically just says that God gave us free will choices, knowing what we'd do with that power, and reacted in a perfect way that brings Himself the most glory. God predestines who will be in the book of life, and he calls people to Him out of their willful defiance of Him. He doesn't make them that way, He gave them the choice. He didn't choose sin; we did. We are responsible for our sin, and God is responsible for our salvation from that state of constant rebellion. That's what calvinistic predestination is.
Liked before watched!! No need to see it first
I right there with you. I know it’s very echo chamber-ish but I think Leighton tells the truth so yeah! God bless!
That's what Biblical type faith is like
@@alexz31cujo31 what "other view"?
@@alexz31cujo31 Why do you think I did not consider the other views? I've been on a personal journey nonstop examining Soteriology for a year now.
I can elucidate what Calvinism teaches, what passages they use as prooftexts, and why they say those passages support Calvinism.
Since you have made the accusation, can you yourself say the same about other views you do not hold? For example, can you explain what Biblical reasons are given by those who say Romans 9 is about corporate election, or those who say Romans 9 is about election to service/roles?
@@alexz31cujo31 Excellent, then you know the Biblical and philosophical reasons why we believe what we do.
I think his (Piper's) mentioning of faith harkens back to Eph. 2 where it says "by grace are you saved through faith, and that (faith) not of yourselves, it (faith) is the gift of God not of works less any man should boast". The mere possession of saving faith is a gift given by God.
The only issue is that the verse in greek disagrees with you. Where it says and that not of yourself the greek word is the wrong gender to be describing faith. What is actually referred to is the entire previous clause which is on Salvation. Leaving us with this: For by grace are you saved by faith and this Sa(lvation) is not of yourselves this Salvation is the gift of God not (Salvation) of works lest any man should boast.
God can determine all things without being unjust
except if you are mistaking God with a demonic figure, invented by your imagination - and a 'god' that would determine everything to the point of reducing spiritual creatures to automats, is not the Holy Trinity - it is a demon, agrandized to cosmic dimensions
Yes, he can, now prove that God has determined everything from scripture, but you can't, because of verses like Jeremiah 19:5, that says what those peopel did, didn't even come into the mind of God. How can you say God determined everything, when there are some things that God didn't even think about? You can't, and to say God determined that those people to do those evil things, does not gowith the character of God.
@@livingforjesus8551 Jerimaih 19:5 doesn't say that say that there are things that God doesn't know about, It is saying that unlike many of the canaanite deities, Yahweh never commanded human sacrifice, and for him to even think about commanding human sacrifice goes against his nature and thus that command never did come to His mind.
@@shmoney4053
Either way, it still disproves that God has determined everything.
@@livingforjesus8551 john chap 1 ;12-13 and read ephesians chap 1
So grateful for your ministry!
I can't wait for WLC's Systematic Theology
Thanks for helping explain Romans 9! It was a very good explanation. Mike Winger also has a good video to check out about Romans 9. Good work!
No. Piper does not think that faith and works are the same. He thinks that works follow faith.
Yet, he contradicts himself doesn't he. TULIP© is a false religion.
On his website he says faith is not a work, when description of election and Salvation comes along...* Faith is a work* and not possessed by 'totally depraved' man. One cannot simply believe in Christ, Christ chooses who will have faith and works on determinism.
Remember, calvinism® and Reformed theology by definition is a paradigmatic religion.
Election
Atonement
Grace
Pre-destination (pre-ordainment to A place of Adoption into the Kingdom)
Depravity
(Those are biblical). Because they do not have a adjective attached to them, nor do they have reformed "institutes" and "confessionals" piggybacked onto those doctrines.
'total Depravity'
'unconditional Elections multiple kinds (double pre-destination)
• 'limited Atonement' : (false by outset due to logical implications
• 'irresistible Grace' (false because God is resistable) His will at the end of judgement day is not resistable however.
• `Pre-destination' of the Perservering Saints, Predetermined by God as reprobate or Glorified above the Angels who *also "predetermined to fall" ; "God did not create man sinful, dead in sins, incapable of responding to His will though He calls All Mankind, carnal Man that hates God from their creation is a false theology.
Especially when saying "God is calling all incapacitated dead men to repent when they cannot, and He made them that way".
God made Lazarus dead in sin, only when He calls they respond and come forth. Yet what about the Woman at the well? Was she not spiritually outcasted by Jews and Christ simply told her the Saviour that she heard about had truly come. It's very possible she was wanting to believe in a Messiah but had never been taught by anyone yet like the prostitute Rahab, she heard of God of Israel and feared unto belief.
"God chooses specifically who comes to Himself."
"Only God atoned for a select few." "The select few become the elect."
It's a false religion calvinism, but it's taught by false teachers, hopefully many will see this and simply believe the truth.
Tulip is not a religion man
It’s an acronym for 5 doctrines that the Bible teaches. It’s a refute of 5 other doctrines that some men came up with.
@@LFJ_Official It's a cultic religion. reformed theology was meant to deceive.
There isn't a need to debate that God did not Atone for a limited number for a limited time until he condemns those He chose, that no one knows which ones that might be.
Devil is in the details, and each reformer has their doctrines of devil's ready to deceive.
@@abashedsanctimony154 no you sir are wrong, debate will not carry you
Read your letters
the New Testament is easy to understand
Keep reading God will show you
@@abashedsanctimony154 it’s reforming not reformed
Still happening and wasn’t created to deceive weirdo
Wow! I truly appreciate the Jeremiah 18 cross reference when responding to the Porta l Potter and clay thing. I thought I was the only one who made that observation. That chapter sheds a lot of light on what Paul could be really saying in Romans. Thank God for the whole counsel of His Word. 🙌🏾
... Or he's just saying exactly what he's sayung in Romans and Ephesians?
"Invite you to think which is more reasonable"
Uh one of them literally has a ministry called Reasonable Faith 😏
👏👏👏
Thanks for your work Leighton. I know some of the Christian community disagree with you about Calvinism, and others who don't disagree on Calvinism don't agree with you basing your ministry on contesting Calvinism. But for me your work has been a great help. I still have not decided yet (my main issue being Rom. 9:19) but your ministry is necessary for lovers of the truth.
Context...
Non Calvinist preachers would serve the Christian body well by teaching Roman's 9-11 instead of either avoiding those chapters or teaching thematic sermons on anxiety, success, money etc.
the puppet master is culpable.for the acts of his marionettes. it’s as simple as that. On calvinism (or, if you like, on divine determinism) God does not hate sin; He is the author of it. Of course this is simple blasphemy, well-intentioned (many blasphemies are such) or not.
“but we believe in God’s wrath, and hell, etc! We believe God hates sin!” Yes, but not coherently. the interesting thing is that Calvinist insist the God’s will is not thwarted, but that God has to cause to be that which He hates.
Calvinists: "The logical end of Arminianism is Pelagianism and salvation by human achievement."
Arminians: "The logical end of Calvinism is Fatalism and Determinism."
I mean Paul I’m Romans 9:11 does use the word πρόθεσις which means purpose. Does that change anything?
Clear as a bell. Calvinism has no clapper. Thanks for the clarity.
Pipers problem is his definition of election and what he thinks it means given a set of circumstances.
I read a Calvinist pastor on this passage. He did something Piper didn't clearly do; he made a distinction to avoid the faith and works contradiction that Piper appears to make. He said that Paul here is referring not to works of the Law, which he contrasts with faith previously in Romans, but is referring to all human works which includes faith. I'll paste the quote here:
"Verse 11 goes on to say, "so that God's purpose according to His choice (or His election, His selection,) would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls." You see, God's purpose in election stands because it is literally, in the Greek text, "not (out) of works." He's talking about the source; God's choice, His election, doesn't find its source in our works. I think Paul clearly intends this phrase as a summary of verse 11 where it says they "had not done anything good or bad." And so he's not talking about just the works of the Law, keeping the Mosaic Law; he's talking about all human works. So he's saying here the source or the basis of God's choice is not human works of any kind. Rather, notice what he says, God's choice, and this is fascinating, was out of the one calling, literally is what it says, out of the one calling.
Now that is remarkable because as we walked through Romans, you have seen Paul throughout this entire book contrast works with what? It's not by works, but by faith, and that's exactly what you would expect him to say here. If he had said that, however, he would've been saying that election was based on foreseen faith. But he doesn't say that. He intentionally changes his pattern. What he says is, "so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works, (not out of works), but because of Him who calls.""
Can anyone help me with this? He's arguing that you can get this "all human works" instead of "works of the law" because of the way Paul says it in the Greek if I understand correctly. Thanks!
The fact that Paul mentions the idea of us wrongly questioning God and his ways proves that we have some kind of will, choice or mind of our own. If we didn't and that kind of thing wasn't possible, Paul wouldn't even be able to think of it or tell us we shouldn't do it.
Precisely
Thank you so much for this. I’ve been really struggling with things since learning about what it would mean if Calvinism were true. I believe that Gods word is written for people to read and simply understand. And this is the simplest and clearest explanation of what this passage is describing by Paul. I had a deep sense of peace while hearing this.
Thank you for the marvelous work you and your team are doing. As a student of the Holy Scriptures, I agree with your interpretation and views on this topic.
Yes, we will support the efforts to get the message across.
Blessings
When we understand WHY Reformers need to make faith a work, it makes sense why faith as a work became the teaching.
It was based on Augustines fear of Christians boasting or crediting their salvation to themselves.
So instead of addressing a legitimate concern and offering the proper solution, Augustine made up an unscriptural philosophy.
Elected (chosen) to be a blessing or for a purpose.....Outstanding!
Nothing outstanding.. There is no sense in election if its not for salvation to be a child of God.. Flowers introduced this idea of "noble cause" or "carry the word of God to the world" or some other peripheral thing.. Nothing else matters if the election isn't for the purpose of salvation.
@A K Elect Do you not believe in whosoever will? Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This was masterful and highly edifying. Much appreciated!
Hello Doctor Flower. Do you have that book in Spanish? Unfortunately everything we have in Spanish is coming from McArthur, Piper, Pastor Nunes, Paul Washer and Sugel Michelin they are great man’s of God but I am disagree on the unconditional election and that Doctrine is getting big bc we don’t have anything else.
What does that have to do with the price of gold in Scandinavia?
Brother I thought I was going to hear John piper and william craig speak on romans 9 and not you interrupting all the time
The importance of separating 'The promise' (Genesis 15) from the 'Covenant' (Genesis 17) can not be over stated when reading Romans. The 'promise" is for all who have faith and the 'covenant' is for the blood line of Christ.
Amen
Praise God 🙏🙏🙏
I don’t think I have heard a good answer yet to “what is the point of evangelism, or prayer for that matter, under Calvinism ?” Can someone help me out?
Their answer is that, nobody knows who are elect, so preach to all, gospel is the means by which elect comes to christ.
As to prayer, I saw an answer to that by RC Sproul, I think, that said prayer is to help our own minds.
@@Davisme1 So by not evangelizing an elect person they would be lost? If that is true then election is not true.
@@peterfox7663 Self inflatable dogma is profitable to a calvinist.
I have to agree RC Sproul didn't know that prayer is for relationship and communion with the Father.
'Communion' sacrament is for our benefit.
Prayer and actually communicating with God is what prayer is for. Glad you brought that up.
@@AlaskanMissions That makes no sense. Witnessing and spreading the Gospel proves that election is true.
God elects servants. Some *self-elect* themselves. I will grant calvinists are self-elected.
I listened to a lot of pastors and profs who claim not to be Calvinists, but in their teaching and preaching Calvinism comes out. Even preachers like David Jeremiah succumb to Calvinism. I think there isn’t a lot of pushback because a lot of pastors and profs just believe what they want and don’t invest time to discover the truth. They’re too busy for that, sadly, especially knowing that a Piper Calvinist would call anyone a heretic for not believing in TULIP. That’s a serious charge to place on the church. So, it’s not so much about how good a job they do as opposed to us, it’s that they don’t know what they believe. And so maybe it’s better that way. Perhaps more will catch on then stand up. Blessings!
Calvinists don't call arminians heretics, at least not in the Presbyterian church. They say you're in error, but as long as you still belive the core things about the trinity, Christ and His Divinity, etc. you'll be saved. Most Calvinists argue against Arminianism though, since it can lead to Pelagianism, but I digress. We just want everyone to understand God as we do
@@jackboehm8408 unfortunately they do call Arminians heretics because when you talk about the essentials of the faith, the essentials are Calvinism, or what has been called TULIP. If you disagree with that, then you’re a heretic according to Calvin. Why do you think he had so many Christians murdered at the stake for disagreeing with him?
The guy delighted in the slow roasting of Christians simply for not buying Calvinist theology from total depravity to predestination, to irresistible grace to perseverance. If someone claimed a child is born innocent to explain why children go to Heaven, he’d have you killed because the if the child isn’t one of the elect from the foundation of the world, then that child went to Hell.
If someone, like a pastor recently, commits suicide he’s in Hell because he didn’t persevere. And if you disagreed with Calvin, it’s to the wood pile for you, mister!
So yes, Reformers are Calvinists, and anyone not a Calvinist is considered a heretic. Ask your pastor why he’d say about someone who believed in being born innocent, or someone expressing their own faith in Christ to save them of their own free will. Ask if they are heretical and see what he’d say.
I personally was attracted to Calvinism as compared to other religion church services . . . for the expository preaching, every Sunday, continuing on book-by-book, chapter-by-chapter . . . eventually, the entire Bible, including Revelation.
Instead of random pick whatever OT scripture verse totally unrelated to random pick NT scripture verse for the preacher to decide which to do a sermon about, or disregard both of them cause he has a personal issue to continue on with. An entire lifetime with no hope to ever get through the entire Bible, which the story has been presented in so scrambled up of a way that it can't possibly be a real book, who would ever believe that . . . satan has certainly done an excellent job screwing up most religions with meaningless church services.
Yes, I'm targeting every different religion that I ever attended church in, throughout my lifetime: United Congregational Church of Christ, Methodist, First Christian, Baptist, Wesleyan, attended a few Catholic weddings, Lutheran both Missouri Synod & Wisconsin Synod & worst of them all Evangelical Lutheran Church Association . . . a Mormon church in Texas, I refused to visit a Jehovah Witness ( Thank you God for that brief bit of wisdom at such a young age! ) Holy Roller & Bible Thumper churches, only scripture you get is "Praise the Lord! & Thank You, Jesus!" It must be 100% divinely inspired cause I don't think they actually open their Bibles at all! I got more scripture watching the movie, Fried Green Tomatoes - made me want to go down south & find a Black Gospel Church . . . but I was afraid If find one that killed chickens & ate snakes!!!
So, lesson to be learned, to all these churches trying more music, hip-hop music, entertainment to keep the kids coming back, draw in the crowds, movie nights, popcorn or pizza parties . . . WHATEVER . . .
Try starting with the Gospel of John & simply preach from that every Sunday until you get all the way through it - preach for a full half hour, minimum, not just 10 or 20 min. sermon time . . .
cut down on the other distractions that don't belong in the service, public or community announcements, health, funeral, wedding acknowledgements, even prayer requests, need a different forum separate from the church service . . . I'm serious, they don't need their "claim to fame" moment in the presence of the entire congregation, get a volunteer in the church office to acknowledge them & make appropriate people aware - just see what kind if a reaction you get from your congregation!!!
My bet is people will start to actually bring their Bibles to church, even a notebook & pen to take notes, start asking you questions afterwards, request you to go on to (?) book next - some will leave but even more will come.
You want to combat Calvinism encroaching into all religions, stealing your congregation away from your church, start teaching the Bible, from the Bible!!!
I agree with you Dr, wrong is wrong it doesn't who brought it on the table
Praise God for your ministry.
What is people’s problem with Calvinism? I see too many of these videos pop up. Most people don’t have a problem with once saved always saved, or even justification by faith alone, it always seems to be the doctrine of election, am I correct? If so, what is the problem people have with election?
Calvinism is unbiblical. God doesn’t send people to hell arbitrarily the way piper and McCarthy teach.
It challenges their understanding of who God is. It's also a false humility, often, like this... no, God didn't choose me. Who am I? Then they are left with only being able to say that they chose God, which, according to the Bible, is not true. And no one wants to admit that since the Fall, there truly is no such thing as free will because all are under the curse and sin permeates every decision made, thus negating free will because all have sinned (Isaiah, quoted by Paul in Romans 3:23).
I will say molinism is interesting, but does nothing but push the problem back a step further. For if God creates the world that He foresaw, then that world is bound by fate, not free will, because no one will choose anything other than what God foresaw them choosing. It's inescapable, but some people find comfort in the thought that it was achieved through their free will. A level of arrogance, my free will cannot be trumped by God, even though I'm corrupt with sin and unrighteousness. I'm not a Calvinist (not a Presbyterian, but a Baptist, and have my own struggles with the so-called five points of Calvinsim, but I do agree with much of what is said on that side of the debate. I don't hold to double predestination because that's an unnecessary position - all are destined to hell no matter what. I'm more Calvinistic than I am anything else. But I'm open to being dialogued with and discussing God's Word to come to a place of better understanding of my King.
This was such an awesome response, brother. I appreciate the thought that went into it. I agree with much of what you said and I appreciate the perspective. What you said about all being destined for destruction is right on, although I myself do believe in double point predestination mainly because of Romans 9 "And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? 23 And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory- 24 on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles". It's definitely a compelling thought though, the way you put it. I go to a Southern Baptist church, our pastor really breaks the Bible down well, thank God. I'm amazed actually at the preaching because He often doesn't preach what I expect to hear. I often hear preachers preach the same thing almost as if they heard it from someone else and it sounds repetitive. If I had to pinpoint my beliefs, I'd say I think I lean towards soft determinism in the aspect of predestination. I find much more comfort in knowing my salvation is secured in Christ, although I struggle at times to feel I matter to Him or like He is going to help me, but I know do see and know He loves me, and I find comfort in that and I give God the glory for that. I'll be honest, I'm just tired of these videos popping up on my feed. 10 videos about how people hate Calvinism and the comments section is something else. If someone was being led astray I'd be much more convinced by someone reproving a fellow brother in love instead of them calling him a heretic, ridiculing him and condemning him to hell (as I've seen). Jesus Himself said people will know we are His disciples by the way we love one another. How about we stop attacking each other and just preach the gospel from time to time, you know? (That's how I feel anyway) Tired of these videos. Also, people can say faith is not a work if they want to, but scripture is clear that it is a gift from God. You can't exercise a gift until it's been given, so I agree with you that I could have in no way chosen God, if not for His Holy Spirit leading me to Jesus.
I think I have a better take, though I agree with much that Craig said (and nothing that Piper said). From the very beginning the Jews have made to big objections to the Gospel: 1. We don't need it because we are the elect, 2. If it was true then why haven't the vast majority of us accepted it. Paul seems to be answering these objections by first, defending God's right to elect the nation Israel (this was something his gentile readers needed to hear), but also his right to harden those who harden their hearts in unbelief even though, like Pharaoh, God has revealed himself to them. He will then go on to argue that though elect, the Jewish people have hardened their heart. As a result God has hardened them (this explains why the majority have not believed). He then argues that the gentiles are being invited in in place of the hardened Jewish people (though God is his faithfulness has preserved a remnant). He then warns the gentiles against the temptation to despise the Jews (a admonition the church of Rome did not heed), because they are still beloved and will be grafted in again at some future time.
Why do you think God hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Thanks! I’ve been missing out on this and WLC.
It’s not really fair that the host first speaks against Piper and then invites Craig to do the same. Either the host stays neutral or invite another Calvinist to balance out the teams. Two against one is not fair.
You are so right! Thank you, @vhartzell1 Flowers pulls a CNN stunt here.
Real, even though WLC is a molinist, and the host is an Arminian
Leighton is not Arminian. Show that you understand how his system is not consistent with Arminianism.
Higher IQ does have an advantage Dr. Flowers. I dont know why we play that down. William Lane Craig prooves that in this debate. IQ is directly linked to understanding and explaining the text.
I totally disagree with John Piper, but I can never dislike him as a person - he is so sweet and gentle. I bad mouthed him once for giving a bad "counsel" to a girl having a crisis with her faith, but that was wrong for me to do that.
He is so nauseating....then I found out that all his kids are raging atheists then I knew that they could see the BS at home....I heard piper many many years ago and felt something so wrong about him...
And John McArthur too...
@@wicomms are you Christian?
@@wicomms he represents himself in PUBLIC as a nice, caring, learned authority figure. BUT, after being introduced as a speaker at a local church by one of the pastors who was of a short stature, piper hugged the pastor around the waist and lifted him off the ground while smiling and laughing. the pastor was embarrassed and taken aback.
HOW DISRESPECTFUL.....a pastor, in a church, in front of christians, and just before he was to preach. to me, this was a revealing of piper's cruel and condescending character, and probably a confirmation of the true (mostly hidden) nature of ALL calvinists.
they are all hypocrites. on one hand asserting that they are correct and all noncalvinists are stupid, and on the other hand infiltrating noncalvinist churches to usurp the leadership and indoctrinating those sheeple into TULIP.......calvinists: God is in meticulous control, but we have to help Him out"
@@arkrainflood totally agree
So sweet and gentle that he teaches women who are abused should put up with it in favor of male headship. Yeah... that's what Christ wants.
Romans 4:5 clearly states Paul’s view that faith is not a work. He says, “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.”
Another great video by Soteriology101.
Thank you. This was a great discussion from two great men. I think you kind of tipped the scale however with your constant commentary based on your personal belief. It would have been better served with just listening and deciding for ourselves.
I see where you are coming from, but it is his channel and that's the point of it. It's his apologetic for the gospel.
We don't save ourselves but merely believe in the only one that does.
The more I learn of the Bible the more easily I see the unraveling of Calvinism. Dr. Flowers brought out something very important. That is, not accepting the definitions and premises that Calvinists have created.
As you work to reconcile Piper's position as it relates to God's choosing, please consider how God described Himself to Moses: Exodus 33:19 "And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." What does this say about those who God will not be gracious or show mercy to?
I don't watch John piper anymore long before I saw this video...John Piper is not a very good teacher in my opinion. 🙏
Or you're just not a very good student.
I've struggled with this for a long time. I often wonder why some believe and others don't. Why do some have faith and others don't? And, is faith truly a work? Please help!!
This is a crucial verse I don't hear people bring up much. Romans 4:13 "For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." The whole point of Roman's 9 is that God has not failed to keep his word to Israel by virtue of the fact that gentiles who didn't keep the law have been saved and Jews who tried to keep the law were lost. This verse tells us why. The promise God made to Israel and his descendants was not that all of his physical lineage or all of his seed who would live more righteous lives than others through the law would receive the promised blessing. The promise was that all of those who were of the faith of Abraham would receive the blessing Of imputed righteousness and become heirs of the world. So God's word has not failed (9:6). The Jews were excluded because they would not seek the blessing through the one means God specified from the very beginning, faith.
I have had Calvinists explicitly say that faith is a work
We become the "elect of God" when we believe in Jesus. Yhwy chose Israel as His Elect, and Gentiles are included when we believe in Jesus. pretty simple to me. Calvanists are excluding. God will "save ANYONE who chooses to believe.
An often overlooked point- Paul himself was a former common vessel (Saul), used for dishonorable purposes before he was cleansed through faith in the finished work of Jesus. He became a vessel of honor. His transformation is a clear picture of the scope and work of God's saving grace through faith in Jesus. God has extended His saving grace to all people through Jesus, who died for the sins of the whole world.
Thanks a lot. William Lane Craig's explanation might just be one of the best. Being a philosopher, he knows how to deal with meaning. He knows that you have to focus on the purpose of the writer to understand and not confuse anything. Calvinists have an interpretation of this chapter in a way that contradicts Paul's intent
john chap1 vers12-13
Romans 9:19-24 answers the problem of how God can be just according to Calvinism. The same questions you are asking are the same questions Paul answers. “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
You're assuming the objection that Paul is answering in those verses is a modern non-calvinist Christian arguing against TULIP, not a 1st century Jew asking Paul why their status as the biological offspring of Abraham doesn't immediately make them children of the promise.
Not all those who cry Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of heaven but those who follow the will of my Father.
If that verse doesn't destroy sola fide and affirm salvation through obedience I don't know what does.
And if you read on you'll find that the will of the Father is that we would believe on His Son and have everlasting life. Those crying Lord Lord had just presented their own works as justification and not the finished work of Jesus.
@Tazeran find me a single church father that interprets that verse like you just did now. And when Jesus said feed the hungry and love your enemies was that optional or mandatory?
amzing...amazing, amazing! good stuff and easy
Faith is death without works. They work in tandem.
There are different types of works, Paul is talking about Torah ritualistic works here. We see three types of works in Galatians.
1.) Works of the Torah ritualistically
2.) Works of a living Faith (Works of Faith)
3.) Works of the Flesh
Happily, I encountered Non-Calvinist theologians and Bible scholars in the 1990s. Calvinists always seem to be twisting the context of the verses and inserting their extra-biblical view into the biblical text, which is not how I was taught to do exegesis.
Free gift came upon all men
Ask calvinists "Why did Jesus go to the cross?" Given their view of predestination, why was the cross necessary?
Sadly, the more i delve into this calvinist/reformed theology, the more i'm thinking it's what Paul would call "a different gospel."
God promises Abraham that He will send his descendants to slavery and captivity, then will save them eventually. Long after, years down the line, Israel is in slavery in Egypt. Why was salvation necessary? And the answer is simple, "that God is glorified in His faithfulness and for His incredible work of salvation."
"Given their view of predestination, why was the cross necessary?"
Well, it's simple. That God is glorified in His faithfulness and for His incredible work of salvation.
It's the same. He promises that He will save sinners (those that however believs), and makes appropriation for their sin in Christ on the cross.
@@everytingYay
are you calvinist-thinking John?
if God has already decided who is saved and who is lost, how does the cross change that? if the cross doesn't make any difference, how then does it glorify God, an unnecessary, atrocious act? it seems that calvinists want their cake and eat it, as we say proverbially.
@@chrisneeds6125 Correction: God has elected those that He will save.
However, until Christ returns, or an elect dies, God is still working to effectively save them from their sins and bring them to Him in Christ.
And that is the promise to those that believe, that God will keep them and work to save them from the world.
God is in a saving mission to save His elect. Being saved is a miracle, and it's by grace, it's through mercy. No one deserves God's salvation. It's a free gift. Man deserves death. That is our wages, for the sinful works we have done against a righteous, holy God. When God determines to punish every sinner for every sin that they committed, that is justice. When He elects those that He will save through the works of Christ on the cross, that is grace, mercy, and justice as well. Nothing about this puts God in a bad light. Unless you have your own God that you created in your mind and imagination. The Bible is clear on this issue, and it is true whether you agree or not. Whether you believe or not. Stop fighting. Just believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation. He will never forsake you. You will be free and rest in His works. He will bring you to the Father, and will never let you go
@John Ndung'u
God has already saved the elect from before the foundation of the the world: predestination.
Therefore your nice sounding argument (i'm not being facetious, it really *sounds* good) is fatally flawed due to false circular reasoning: God sent Jesus to die to save those God has already saved from before the foundation of the world; predestination, remember?
Like i keep saying, calvinists try to have it both ways, viz. God already saved (elected) them but suddenly we need faith through grace to be saved. No. If we're already saved, we don't need anything to save us. According to calvinism, those saved and those unsaved has been predetermined. This false doctrine is on a par with catholicism's you must do good works in order to stay saved, oh, and giving us your money is very good works, wink, wink.
You are following a false doctrine John. Be *very* careful.
I have said in ♡♡♡ to you all i'm going to say on the subject so i will not respond further. Hopefully see you at the wedding feast? ♡♡♡
@@chrisneeds6125 Think of it this way: Your rich father promises you $100 million when you are 8. When you are 14 years, he still hasn't bought it, but still, you consider yourself $100 million rich. Same as when your are 16 and 17. So, you believe that you are rich based on your father's promise. But still, based on the promise that he gave you, he is obligated to give you the money according to his plans.
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:4-7, 11, 13-14 ESV
Election, predestination, God's sovereignty, and other doctrines of grace are true. Just continue studying and praying. Open your mind and heart to the word of God. You'll find the truth.
Blessings
What is the function or utility of faith under Calvinism if believers are pre elected before the creation?
Yes. Jesus said pick up our crosses and follow Him.
James 2:21-24 NASB95
*_Was not Abraham our father justified by works_* when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
[22] You see that *_faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;_*
[23] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, And *_ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,"_* and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that *_a man is justified by works and not by faith alone._*
@@SSNBN777 Man is saved by faith alone, and justified by works. Faith is the drinking from a glass (analogy), works is swallowing. None of those quenches your thirst, but the water alone. By faith, we receive God's salvation in Christ. Our works is the evidence of the faith in Christ. None of those saves. Not the faith, and not the works, but Christ alone saves. These realities demonstrate how we are save, or how to we receive salvation (by faith), and how do we know that our faith is real (by works), but Christ alone is the savior, and not faith and works in on themselves
I get so frustrated with podcasters that think it's their responsibility to tell me what I am hearing. Why the unnecessary interruptions of Pipe and then pretend you're being objective?
Something very important about Romans 9 that I haven't heard pointed out. Why does Paul spend the first few verses willing to damn his own soul if only his people would repent and believe? Isn't that kind of thinking antithetical to the idea that everything is fated, preordained and in God's hands? What's he complaining about then?
I am not a calvinist. BUT some of my spiritual heroes are calvinists. People like Paul Washer, Jon McArthur, Charles Suprgeon etc. although. I actually see in the bible support for both calvinist and non-calvinist view. In order for someone to be saved, the Holy spirit has to come and convict a persons heart, lead him to repentance. Its the work of the Holy spirit. If God himself wouldnt touch my heart, I would not believe. So the question is, why did God touch my heart and lead me to repentance while my buddy who was with me in the church God did not touch? Thats a question I ask myself but cant find an answear to.
Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated is not about the individual, it's about the way Abraham went about conceiving them. One, Esau, by works, taking things into his own hands, the other, Jacob, accepting by faith that God was able to bring His promise through Sarah in her old age. It's the concept these two brothers represent. God hates the works of man trying to bring about His will and ways in any shape. God loves a person who by faith accepts what God says. And that includes salvation. "Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God."
Even Noah was not saved by his works but he received grace from God and so was asked to work out his faith Genesis 6:8-9, 14-22, Philippians 2:13.
Dr. Flowers,
I appreciate your stand for the truth, and all the work that you do. I do have a question for you concerning your "respect" for men like John Piper. The doctrine of these reform theologians is the enemy of the truth. I understand respecting everyone as a human being, but why do you respect them as ministers?
Because there fruits (most reformed preachers) is consistent with that of true faith, like John Mac, Steve Lawson, Voddie, etc... Furthermore, there messages (preaching) over the years have been consistent with scripture, and there warnings have proved reliable (like John Warning against charismatic preachers since the 1970's).
Lastly, they have been a voice of truth and reason in their preaching ministries amongst the likes of Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland.
Of course their will be one or two bad fruits and imposters, but these men preach the truth of God bravely and courageous without fear!
Dr. Flowers has turned most of you against them for being Calvinistic, denying you rich contents and materials for spiritual growth.
My thinking is, Dr. Flowers acknowledges this and usually makes short disclaimers in the beginning of his presentations (oh I love Dr. MacArthur and respect his ministry bla bla bla), yet, as you evidenced by your comment and others like you, has forstered deep hatred for them.
Why? He is forced to do that because he knows the truth. If he goes full blown against them like he has turned you, he'll virtually be forced to confront his error and provide an alternative to their message, which is impossible.
Therefore, he has to contend that Calvinism is false but Calvinist preachers are good, and encourage you to ignore just the bad part (Calvinism) and embrace the rest, yet these preachers present the gospel in totality.
So, he will call them brothers while for you, you'll hate them and other reformers proving that he might not be fully convinced of his positions
So is monergism not biblical...Lutherans are monergistic as to salvation, synergistic as to damnation ...woukd like to find discussion of
Amen brother. I’m a daily Bible reader, love reading God’s Word bc of Him expressing His love for the world and sinners. I can never get the hermeneutical thoughts from the Calvinists. So inconsistent and not in line with God’s loving character.
Dr. Flowers, I would appreciate it if you could enable automatic translation.
Greetings from Chile
Amen brother! Jesus gave his life for all, all we need to do is repent and believe/place or trust for salvation in him and we will be saved!
If I'm not a calvinist nor a Armeniansist(spelling?) what would I call myself?
Christian
Perhaps an Open Theist? Perhaps a Molinist?
Bro, WLC literally skipped like 10 verses in Romans 9. I don’t wanna hear anything about proper hermeneutics from you objectors 😂 please don’t compare your Bible study practice to men who are diligent & rightly handle the word like Pastor John does.
Where did Leighton, Craig, or anyone claim that Craig was going exegetically verse-by-verse, rather than what he actually did and just give an overview?
(sorry, hope my rhetorical question didn't sound rude)
To interpret and text properly you must reveal first the entirety of it then gather your interpretation. John did this and teaches out of the scripture and usually does. WLC however teaches into the text. Carry your skills forward. The light is on those whom believe.
@@LFJ_Official Really he wasn't even interpreting, but was presenting what he has already interpreted via private study, so this still doesn't follow.
Maybe you just mean it's a bad teaching method, to only give the broad overview without presenting the detailed exegesis. But of course Piper has taught this way many times.
The key for interpretation is to determine what question the text is addressing. That's what WLC does here. Piper answers a question not raised by the text.
Did we all die in Adam? Isn't he the "federal" head of human kind? If we are all born dead spiritually, what do dead men do? How do we believe? Can the "natural" man discern "spiritual things? Who raises the dead? Can they awaken themselves?
Believe so as to be given new life. See John 20:31 or John 5:40
You don't understand, faith is a gift. (Hebrews 12:2, Acts 3:16, Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:8-9) Piper is not saying he believes faith is a work, he is saying that is why the Israelites did not obtain it, because they they thought they could do it by their own power, therefore turning it into a work. Don't also try to turn faith into a work by saying we must accept as a necessary cause of the grace of salvation He then would give us... this is turning faith into a work. You say free will or free choice like you have complete and total free will... so then did you choose your skin color? Did you choose who your parents would be? Did you choose where they would raise you. Let grace be what it is, GRACE! (Romans 11:6) Do the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 get to say, "wait a sec, we need to be given a chance to accept here before we receive life." Does Lazarus get to say, "hang on here, I need my free will choice as to whether I want you to bring me to life or not." Adoption from young to old is maybe the best picture we have, but does a young child get to say to his or her adopting parents, "first give me a choice in this..." No! They don't! Let grace be grace. If God has made us, and then sin has since ruled over us from Adam and Eve, is God just to let us all die?... yes, He is. What if He extends grace to us, He can! The problem with where you stand goes back to faith. It is impossible to well it up completely and entirely free from influence inside a human heart which scripture says is stone and enslaved to sin. Don't you see? We cannot even freely choose right because of our slavery to sin. We need God to open our heart. Jesus will leave the 99 to save the 1. When Jesus begins a good work, he will carry it on until completion. Jesus cannot fail. Therefore, when He sets out to save one of His children by choice via direct or adoption, He will not fail. Relationship is entirely different, and it is tremendous amount of work,, though like a mountain summit, well worth it. Salvation on the other hand is as simple a question as this: who is in control of your salvation, you or God? God does not fail. Maybe our choosing will can exist freely inside of His complete and total free will!
In your opinion: Is Romans 9 written clearly?
Piper teaches that a person is regenerated by God in order to believe and be justified in order that they may perform the works of “faith” that earn “final salvation”.
😮
If you are looking to make sense out of incomprehensible texts in the word, how do you deal with the Trinity?
Trinity is provable, not sure what you mean. Isaiah is full of verses ruining the monodeistic religions. Son of God: Psalm 110. God is a Monotheistic Godhead.
Micah 5:2 etc.
The *Kitvei haKodesh* of the Tanakh and prophets means the writings of the Prophets of God, of the Old testament. They will be fulfilled by One, the ' *Righteous One* '; that the demons mentioned in the Synoptic Gospels.
Luke 4:34Go away! Why are you interfering with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the *Holy One* [Son] of God!”
They are not synoptic in that they are the exact same witnessing of the events. But Disciples of the same *Son of Man* (Messiah) that would fulfill the requirements for the prophecied Final Prophet, High Priest, and High King. You see Christ is a trinity of titles all by Himself. But He also fulfilled the Final Sacrifice, as the Lamb Of God. There is no man that can be a Sacrifice for all of Human kind, and take the sins of the fallen angels and cast them into hell. Then, redeem Mankind by taking all their sins, and giving back a purified universe to God rebuild and wipe the sin from the world/Man. Demons are not "atoned for" sin-wise , but they are taken control of by having their authority taken. God gave satan rule of the world, he is god of earth right now. Calvinist's will never admit this, muslims will not admit this..but Satan has power to control the darkness. God does not control what comes from evil and sin, John 19:11, He did not Author sin (I Cor 14:33, Jam 1:13). He takes control of the products of sin and darkness from above. He also causes sin to affect others that sin, from above. It's odd, but Christ paid the debt for all of it. I John 3:4. Christ did not sin, because He didn't Author sin.
Only God can do this.