weren't all creatures away from God, hating him, & happily wallowing in our own sin, as summarized by Romans 3? Idk how God elects in his sovereign might, but I'm quite sure that, if it wasn't for God's Grace, we'd all have our tickets to Hell.
JoaoG R, You have a mentality of a Calvinist... But why do you think God created mankind? Is it not that God wants them to be with Him in heaven as God's Family? Therefore God will not fail in His desire and purpose for creation... God predestined all His true children to be saved.....
@@josephdurraz8574 all of humanity already belongs to God, why would he create humans purely to send them to hell? Why would he only elect a tiny group of people to become His children? Satan wants to break the relationship with us and God and keep as many away from God as possible, seems like he is winning
@@josephdurraz8574 What do you mean by "true children"? That brings us to "Why did God create people who are not his true child or those who'd reject him? Where's the discrepancy here? God created them with such a nature/personality?" Differentiate a true child from humanity
@@MrRono19 Interesting Point and funny that you conclude with „Seems like he is winning“ Aren‘t you by saying your Statement against calvinism accepting the Point, that Satan is winning in leading the waste majority of People to hell which God Wants to Save but can’t, because Satan is deciving Every Human being and brought about the Fall of men? Now God ist trying to Save everyone equaly, but can’t get them out of the hands of Satan, why?->Because menkind Loves Satan More then God? Even if God makes Full effort to Save everyone, he can’t, because Satan his deciving Power inside the unredeemd sinner(Eph 2:1ff) is to strong in the life of menkind, that would meen that satans Power is stronger and mightyer then the drawing of God the Father to God the Son trough God the Holy Spirit… So you are saying that the Devil has More Power then God and the only one‘s which are gonna be saved are the one’s which allow God to Save them. Don‘t Know what Even to say about that… I think i let everyone judge for themselfs. God bless you in the Mighty Name of the LORD of lords, Jesus Christ 🙏🏽❤️
@@KevC1111 Hi Elessar the fact God sought Paul out, Paul was in no way looking for Jesus but he was on the road to persecute, God seeks his elect out like the lost sheep parable. The fact that Paul did believe and did not walk away was a sign of election. Paul's Free Will Choice was to persecute the church but God stepped in and changed Paul and saved Paul in an instant. Blessings to you. Ken
@@kent7525 Paul freely chose to to obey tho. God didn't force paul to obey. Paul was chosen only to preach the gospel. He wasn't chosen for salvation. Which is what calvinism teaches and wrongly so.
@@KevC1111 God chose any saved person before the foundation of the world, through God's Sovereign will before the creation of the world and therefore obviously independent of human influence and apart from any human Merit those who are saved have become eternally unified with Christ Jesus. According to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself.
Good answer concerning Romans 9; no sinner deserves heaven, but they do deserve bell based on God's righteousness and justice. This is the reason Ephesians 2:8-9 says we're saved by grace through faith, not of works; it is a gift of God. If God didn't choose us, we would never choose Him.
Eric Smith no-one is saying we choose Him. What we are saying is that when the Gospel is proclaimed we can respond. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
@@gregjay9933 You are incorrect Biblically. The only way any sinner can respond is from God Himself. The Bible spells it out in the whole counsel of scripture. Can any man be saved? With man it is impossible (the Greek Word in this verse means unable) according to Jesus' own words in Matthew 19:26 and Mark 10:27. Who can come to Jesus? Only those who the Father have drawn, because no one can come unless He does it according to Jesus' own words in John 6:44. Why is man unable? Not because he doesn't know about God, he knows based on his conscience and creation, but he suppresses that truth in his unrighteousness according to Romans 1:18-23. He isn't able because he is a slave to his sin nature, which only Jesus can set them free according to Jesus' own words in John 8:34-36. And the Bible talks about the depths of our sin nature. We don't understand, we are not righteous, we don't do anything good, we have wicked mouths, we have murderous hearts, we don't fear God (Romans 3:10-18), we are spiritually dead, we are children of wrath and disobedience by nature, we run after the world according to the wicked one (Ephesians 2:1-3), we have a carnal mind enmity (hostile) against God, therefore nothing in our sinful flesh pleases God (Romans 8:5-8), we don't understand spiritual things because we are natural (1 Corinthians 2:14), we have deceitful, desperately wicked hearts (Jeremiah 17:9), we hate God the Father, Christ, and Christians (according to Jesus' own words in John 15:18-23), and we are condemned already because we hate the light of Christ and love darkness because our deeds are evil (according to Jesus' own words in John 3:19). Even the verse you quoted in John 1:12 says man received and believed, but it doesn't tell you how he responds. You read free will into the text because man did it. Yet John 1:13 tells explains that we are born again by God, not our will at all. So the very next verse explains that the will of man has nothing to do with his trusting the Lord because you can't be born again (regenerated) by our "decision" or it would make it by our will. Verse 13 shows our belief begins with God. Why? Because God grants/gives repentance (Acts 5:31, 11:18 , and 2 Timothy 2:25) and Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). In conclusion, you can't take any verse that infers free will because it gives an imperative to repent, believe, or choose. Those verses certainly say that, but you don't override any verse that infers what we think it says over verses that completely declares who we are or what we can do. Giving verses with any inference over verses that plainly declare is bad interpretation. In doing this, we want to satisfy our own desire to insert free will into texts and make them completely override the attributes of God and the sinfulness of man plainly spelled out in other texts. When this happens, to satisfy the "free" will doctrine (that is never plainly declared in scripture), we will misinterpret verses about God's sovereignty such as Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 9, and Isaiah 46:9-11 and make it say something it doesn't plainly say. For example, so many folks here want to make Romans 9 about nations (Jacob and Esau), but it doesn't go into the context, content, and grammar of the whole of Romans 9. Romans 9:6 gives us the context clearly, not everyone of Israel is of Israel, which means not everyone born a Jew actually knows the Lord (they are unsaved). This is established by Paul's desire for them to be saved in Romans 9:1-5. Paul then explains exactly why they're not all saved, because of God's sovereign election, which he anticipates the two common objections in Romans 9:14-24, asking and answering them. But if you want man to have free will, you have to cut and paste all of Romans 9 and make it say what you want it to say in spots and destroy the whole flow of the chapter as well as the book. And to be honest, no Christian theologian or teacher or preacher (whether they are Calvinists or not) have interpreted this chapter in the awful way it is being interpreted now because of so many professed Christians disdain for the true sovereign will of God. So yes, man can choose God, but won't ever choose God unless God chooses him first.
@@gregjay9933 lol what does the next verse say??? verse 13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
@@teemu1381 lol what does the next verse MEAN??? verse 13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" V12 speaks of us becoming sons of God by receiving Him and V13 tells us what DOES NOT save us. Not of blood - this refers to Jewish heritage. No-one is saved because they are born Jewish. Not of the will of flesh - we cannot save ourselves. Not of the will of man - this refers to manmade systems, ie, religion. Religion cannot save. We can only be saved when God saves us and He saves all those who receive Him; or to put it another way, He saves all those who humbly repent in faith. Hence, this passage does not support the view of God’s sovereignty in Salvation nor does it prove that the sinner is unable to respond to God.
@@gregjay9933 It means those who are born again are BORN OF GOD and those that are born of God it was not because of their own Will, which it lines up with Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." It's really not hard to understand.
Romans 9 is about Israel specifically and not salvation. If you read 8-11, this makes a lot more sense. If you read all of Romans you will see. Piper implies that this is automatically about salvation. Everyone deserves to be there, but the capacity of the cross is for all, and it should not be taught that it is only for some.
Certainly the capacity of the cross is for all, Calvinists don't deny that it had the ability to save all, the question is, did it? And the answer is no it only actually saves the believers no matter how you look at it. So now the question is did God want to save everyone and fail? Or did God save everyone He Pleased even though He certainly Had the ability to save more. Read ephesians 2:1-10 the action of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus accomplished the placing of all who would believe in heaven. Putting us in heaven isn't a sperate action then what happened on the cross. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB
Landon Smith well that’s a straw man in a sense because the question sets up God as failing and I certainly believe He fails because of people’s choices and because of certain evil actions. The Lord’s Prayer signifies the will of God that His Kingdom would be established on the Earth. This is still a process. We need to take hold of the power that we as Gods people have been entrusted with. We could phrase the question did God fail or does God hate everyone before they have even sinned cause that’s what election is and that’s not Biblical because John 3:16 and Gods will to save all must be held to.
@@user-gx4wi4cv2m The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates. Psalms 11:5 NASB For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. Psalms 5:4-5 NASB There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, *A heart* that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, *A false witness who* utters lies, And *one who* spreads strife among brothers. Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB How do you reconcile these and other passages with your view of John 3:16?? I will be able to give an actual response after leaving work.
@@landonsmith348 I don't think that has to do with the issue at hand. Obviously the Lord hates wickedness because "none is righteous." Romans 3 tells us that no one is truly good in God's sight. The only reason God sent His Son for us is because of John 3:16! He is into reconciliation. 1 Timothy 2 explains this further: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time." He "wants all to be saved" and to come to "knowledge of the truth." He also gave Himself as a "ransom for ALL PEOPLE." This contradicts limited atonement strongly, very strongly. Yes we all deserve punishment, but God has intervened on behalf of humanity. Not just the elect.
@@user-gx4wi4cv2m I am actually in the middle of writing very extensively on this passage if you would like to read it. The translation you are using seems to be doing some of the interpretation for you, this is something you must always be careful of when reading thought for thought translations of the Bible instead of word for word one's. One thing about the 1 Timothy passage that I would like to get your take on is this, the word for ransom here is actually different then the word for ransom everywhere else in the new testament. It is antilytron as aposed to just lytron in places like Mark 10:45 for example. The first part (anti) refers to substitution (lit. "In place of" or "in exchange of") and the second part (lytron) which is a ransom price. In this case "He gave Himself a ransom of all" (the word men isn't actually there) means christ himself was the substitute payment for whoever the "all" is. The question is, do you believe that Christ substitutionary atonement applies to every single person on the planet at the moment of His death?? "He gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time" the second thing this implies is that the substitutionary ransom payment took place at the cross when Jesus gave Himself. So we have substitutionary atonement taking place for whoever the "all" is, at the moment of Jesus giving himself on the cross, not when I choose to believe. My sins were exchanged with christ righteousness at the cross. So you have two consistent options. 1. Jesus exchanged His righteous for every single man on the planet at the cross and become a universalist (which you probably do not want to do). Or 2. Recognize Paul is talking generally about "all" here and speaking in categories, meaning people from every tribe, people, and nation. Recognizing that Christ did not substitute His righteousness for every man on the planet. This passage is perfectly consistent with limited atonement. Although this does not exclude Limited atonement arminianism, which would hold that Christ died decidingly for only the ones who would believe some day based on God's knowing they would choose Him by themselves. However. When reading this with Titus 2:11-14 we see that the same grace given to all men actually creates the obedience of faith to everyone it has appeared to. Meaning, again Paul is speaking generically in categories and not saying every single person existing. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:11-14 NASB And also 14 talks about the redeeming that took place accomplished the purifying people for His own possession. Again if that was the action of Jesus on the cross, then since this doesn't happen to everyone, then the action of His death and resurrection must be limited. I don't see any other way of consistently reading these passages without becoming a universalist. As for John 3:16 I believe Jesus is speaking that the eternal life for all who believe, is showing love to the whole creation generally not to every individual person. And I get this from Romans 8 which talks about all of creation waiting for the day when the sons will be adopted. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:18-23 NASB The adoption as sons is what all of God's entire creation is waiting for because that will be the day when the whole world (all of creation) will receive the gift of everyone who believed being adopted and the removal of all wicked people.
I honestly believe that, as Christians, we often make the mistake of wanting to have the answer to everything. I believe that the Bible supports the idea that there are many mysteries that, perhaps, we will never know in this life. In the end, God will reveal to us (through the Holy Spirit) whatever He desires. Job, for example, could not understand why he suffered so much, but God had a redemptive plan and a purpose. When the Lord answers Job, he does not tell him why it brought him affliction, he confronts him by asking him if he knows everything that God knows. For me, this is one of the greatest mysteries in the Bible: why God decided to save some. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, serve in my local congregation, read the Bible and pray every day. However, I look at my life and I am no better than the rest of the people. I sin too. I pray to God that I may be saved, and if I am, in what way am I better than the one who is not? I am a sinner and fell short of the glory of God. Only by grace through faith in Jesus am I saved. Thanks to what Jesus Christ did on the cross for me. I didn't do absolutely anything. I have fallen to the point where I just hold on to my faith and ask God to have mercy on us. Because it is also biblical that God is love, He is merciful and compassionate, so what He determines will be good. I think it is up to us to simply trust Him, hold on, and be faithful. And above all, love him with all our heart, with all our mind and with all our soul.
“GOD GOVERNS THE CHOICES OF ALL PEOPLE AND ALL PEOPLE ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CHOICES” not a contraindication, but it is a mystery. We don’t know how God does it, but He does it. Duet 29:29 it is a hidden work of the Lord.
One thing a Calvinist will not tell you is that the potter and clay reference is from Jeremiah 18. Read the passage and you’ll see how the passage says everything the opposite of the Calvinistic view. The potter and clay analogy is about Israel and nations in general which can either be formed into honorable vessels or vessels for destruction BASED ON THEIR OWN CHOICES of obedience or rebellion. So much for determinism and absolute sovereignty and that’s why they won’t mention the reference when preaching on this. Read Romans 9 as if you are a Jew making the objections and he is referring to Israel being blinded (so how can you blame them part…. referring to the blind Jews) and the gentiles then being brought in to salvation (The “that’s not fair” part about Esau but instead God chooses to show them mercy). The Isaac and Esau references are referring to gentiles, notice it was the 2nd sons being used for God’s purposes not the first. Israel is also Pharaoh in the illustration whose heart God hardened just as he did Israel. Why? to bring about his purpose of salvation to gentiles. It’s actually a passage that EXPANDS the offering of salvation to many, rather than a narrowing of it. It is a picture of God’s incredible mercy and patience vs a predetermined wrath in store for all those that lost the salvation lottery to show that God is both merciful and mighty. Like huh? I call it the 3D art passage. Remember that stuff when all of a sudden it came off the page and you’re like “oh wow, I see it!” That is this passage but you’re likely reading it through your theological bias. I had such a horrible view of God sadly until I had a right view of this text which you’ll then notice is consistent with the following chapters in Romans. Calvinists by their own admission will say that their interpretation of chapter 9 seems contradictory with the following chapters about free will but it’s actually not since God understands how it all works together even when we don’t. 🙄
This is theology not philosophy. The bible is supposed to describe God's character and his instructions for us. Not so we can individually assert a wildly inaccurate conclusion on very little information. Single passages in the bible are not intended to be understood in a vacuum.
I’m so glad that person asked this question. The text says that God makes vessels for both Honor AND Dishonor. No one was a vessel of dishonor before God decreed that they would be. [Pro 16:4 NKJV] 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. I believe that God’s Justus is based on ownership. [Rom 9:22 NKJV] 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. The passage does not teach that the vessels of wrath prepared themselves to be so.
It seems your missing what Paul has already stated up to this point. The vessels of destruction are those who reject the gospel message and therefore God gives them over to a reprobate mind. Notice the passage clearly says that first he endured with much patience (9:22). For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:4-5 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring-not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, Romans 4:14-16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? Romans 6:16 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13
@@calvinpeterson9581 Hey C.P. thank you for your response. It was well thought out and biblically supported. However, it seems to me that the vessels of destruction do indeed reject the gospel message, and God does turn them over to a reprobate mind. But this is because they are fulfilling what God has created them to do. Every passage you referenced is true of the reprobate: They don't honor God, their hearts are darkened, they are storing up wrath for themselves...Nevertheless Paul in Romans 9 is explaining with illustrations that this is what they were created to do. The wicked behave wickedly. The righteous behave righteously. Neither group created themselves. [Rom 9:21 NKJV] 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump TO MAKE one vessel for honor and (TO MAKE implied) another for dishonor? Some have commented that "the same lump" mentioned in this verse is a reference to fallen man, but there is no support for that interpretation in the text. Jacob is loved by God before he was born and before he had performed and good deeds. Likewise, Esau is hated by God before he was born or had committed any evil deeds. If one argues that God's hatred for Esau is based on foreseen evil, then in order to be consistent one would have to point to Jacob's foreseen goodness. (Which he didn't have) The potter makes neutral clay either Honorable or Dishonorable for His own purposes. No one chooses to be born reprobate or elect. It is decided By God in eternity past. Before man ever dishonored God, before they began storing up wrath for themselves and even before the fall of man in Adam.
@@jazzmankey That's a false belief and forcing the text to say something other than what it already states. The vessels of wrath, are those who turn from God's mercy as Romans 1-2 already established. Furthermore your interpretation is completely unfounded in Church history and not even the greatest heretics hold to such bizarre beliefs. It seems your forcing the text to say something other than what it establishes. For scripture says God ENDURED WITH GREAT PATIENCE toward the vessels of wrath. Scripture says his KINDNESS IS MEANT TO LEAD TO REPENTANCE. Scripture states that he has consigned ALL to disobedience in order to have mercy on ALL. His invitation of salvation is open for all people as Romans teaches and faith is a choice available for all people. Yet his mercy that is given, must be received by faith or one will perish in their sins. “Those who cling to worthless idols turn away from God’s love for them. Jonah 2:8 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. Jeremiah 18:4-10 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21
@@calvinpeterson9581 God is not patiently waiting for the those He has prepared for destruction to come to him for salvation. God is putting up with the non-elect until all of His elect are saved: Luke 15:4 -...and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? John 10:16-...other sheep I must bring. Romans 8:30...predestined, called, justified, glorified 2Peter 3:9... longsuffering TOWARD US (God's elect) not willing that any should perish. Rev. 13:8...written since the foundation of the world in the book of life.
@@jazzmankey False, the passage says he has endured with patience and the scriptures say his kindness is meant to lead them to repentance (Romans 2:4-5, Romans 9:22, Romans 10:21). It seems your missing the first part of Romans 8, for it says those who he foreknew he ALSO predestined. Notice one has to be foreknown to God in order to be amongst the predestined. Yet what does the scriptures says who God knows? Unbelievers? Absolutely not! Those who do not love him? Absolutely not! Rather it says he knows those who love him, and predestined/planned a life in Christ for them! Notice it's the Lamb's book of life! When does one belong to the Lamb? Hint it's found in Galatians 3, and Romans 4. For God foreknows all those who are in Christ through the obedience of the gospel. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who LOVE him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Romans 8:28-29 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”- the things God has PREPARED for those who LOVE him- 1 Corinthians 2:9 Scripture doesn't speak of a mysterious elect that are an elusive group, rather it's made of of those who are in Christ through faith by baptism which gives one new birth. The sheep Christ is talking about in John 10 are the Jews that were being abused by those in power and remained faithful to the Father. For the Father says all that are mine will be given to his Son. The scriptures speak in Ezekiel of sheep that were scattered throughout the hills, that will be gathered by the Shepherd David who is Christ. Jesus speaks of who these sheep are and identifies them as those who did not listen to the robbers (John 10:8). But yes they need to be gathered by the great Shepherd who is their God and Saviour.
Romans 8:28-30 New International Version (NIV) 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
@@dewuidew So what, it was used. He says God forenew those who would love him all the way to glorification in heaven. It does not matter Jew or Gentile, he foreknew them and predestined them. You are trying the typical Catholic tactic of adding to the verses or changing meanings. It does not work.
@@donhaddix3770 You're reading into the text "Jew and Gentile" - nowhere does it say that. You *HAVE* to read it into the text to make it fit with what you believe.... If you can show me where it says "gentiles" within those verses or even that chapter, I'll consider re-thinking about it
JESUS CHRIST’S TEACHING ABOUT ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION “Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.... You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.” John 8:34, 44 This is what Jesus says: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me drags HIM, and I will raise HIM up at the last day.” John 6:44 Notice that every person that the Father drags or draws to Jesus Christ is saved and raised at the last day. So not everybody is drawn to Jesus or all would be saved. But we know not everybody is saved. (Matthew 25:46) If a person is not dragged or drawn to Jesus by the Father choosing them (for reasons known only to God - Ephesians 1:4-5, 11) they will never come to Jesus because we are all born slaves to sin and dead in sin. ( Ephesians 2:1-5) Jesus says: “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN come to me unless the Father has ENABLED them.” John 6:63-65 If you do not believe what Jesus says above, then you are not one of Jesus’ sheep because Jesus says: “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:26-30 “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the LAST DAY!” John 12:48 Notice that Jesus raises believers at the “last day” and also condemns unbelievers at the “last day.” Therefore the events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 5:4 take place at the “last day” and not at a heretical pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus says: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me!” John 10:27
I believe the bible teaches us about predestination starting before the foundation of the world. Go from the old testament and look at how many times God called a person or a nation to himself for the glory and service of God. It's all over the bible. But that's not what I want to say. This is, we are creaters growing in understanding and knowledge of an infinite creator. We aren't fully going to understand. Not never. But praise God that he has called us to such a great calling and a privilege for all in Christ to get to know him: Thus says the Lord , “Let not the one who is wise and skillful boast in his insight; let not the one who is mighty and powerful boast in his strength; let not the one who is rich boast in his [temporal satisfactions and earthly] abundance; but let the one who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me [and acknowledges Me and honors Me as God and recognizes without any doubt], that I am the Lord who practices lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on the earth, for in these things I delight,” says the Lord . JEREMIAH 9:23-24 AMP
I dont know how one can believe in predestination. Can you imagine yourself or anyone else planning on making kids and chossing before they are even born who will be loved by you and taken to your house and who will be dumped and despised by you. Very Jesus like? Jesus created people out of love and because He loves his kids. All of them and is not choosing one over another. God didnt die on the cross so some of his kids would have life and others not. Just knowing the nature of God is enough to comprehend that. Doubting in God's nature is the cause of all sins beginning from Adam and Eve.
@@Barelo Do not be foolish. God can decide whenever He wants how He feels about someone, because He knows the beginning to the end. Your example is one on human terms, and it is a poor argument that falls apart because of the fact that, unlike God, we cannot see the beginning to the end. We are not omniscient, unlike Him, nor are we omnipresent, unlike Him. Even now, God is in the past as with the present as with the future, he has no limitations, unlike us, so YES! *HE* can choose to save whoever he wants and to damn whoever he wants, because he holds infinite knowledge, infinite wisdom, and infinite righteousness, as well as more infinites, but they are not *as* relevant to this argument as these three are, specifically.
It seems to me to be a question of perspective. God knows the beginning from the end. We don’t. We are given a mystery. We have a choice. You choose to speak the gospel or keep it to yourselves. You speak what you believe. If you do not go and tell you don’t really believe. Faith to know God’s purpose for you is to simply go and tell. Matt 28:17-20 Some still doubt.
@@ganrhod204 oh okay Seemed like he didn't directly address the question, but the question was operating from a wrong premise, which he addressed. I guess maybe it could've been more clear if he drew that out more!
@@ganrhod204, Definitely Piper did not answer the question correctly... The question is pertaining to Romans 9:11-13... It is about Why do Calvinists say that in Romans 9, God predestined the elect UNCONDITIONALLY, While God predestined the Reprobates CONDITIONALLY... Piper answered the questions by picking his answers from other chapters not in Romans 9... Therefore he did not answer the question correctly...
They are basing their belief on the Bible really which DOES teach double predestination in this very chapter. Kind of funny how theologians and believers are trying to ignore it for centuries.
@@IbeTali if you do some research into it, you'll find agustine taught something Conpletely different until 412. When faced with the extreme teaching of pelagius, he went to an extreme opposite, rather then approaching him in a balanced way. It was shortly after this time he began to teach, contrary to all the early church, things like total inability and "non free free will." I can recommend some good resources if youd like. The idea is that his former gnostic beliefs and argument at this time led to what he taught. He began to use the same passages to justify this doctrine, interpreting the verses in much the same way they did. I would encourage you just to look into it. I was a calvinist, and I'm not a catholic nor arminian. I'm not advocating another man made tradition. Calvin was heavily influenced by agustine. He quotes him over 3000 times in the institutes. He said that agustine was so thoroughly within him he could create his statement of faith just from his writings. Calvin got the ideas from Augustine. Just look into it and it's really apparent.
@@nathanburgett1599 I'll gladly accept those resources! Please do. Personally, I've honestly never looked into Augustine nor Calvin (only read some of his Isaiah commentary and found myself disagreeing on a lot). Rather, after reading Romans 9 I came to see His Word clearly says that it's not a matter of our choice that saves us, but of God's will. I was called a calvinist by the church I attended. It was meant in a derogatory way at the time, to discount the scripture. So here's one Calvinist not caused by Calvin lol.
@@IbeTali yeah I understand that. Lots of people do end up like that. When you follow the train of thought though throughout Roman's it becomes clear the context is different then when you isolate the verses. A couple good resources i can recommend if you wanna think through it. "The foundation of augustinian calvinism" dr Ken Wilson. Hes an Augustine scholar. For romans 9 the potters promise, dr Leighton flowers, does a good job looking at the historical context and following the train of thought, showing how the objector is a hardened jew objecting to the in grafting of the gentiles and not about freewill. There are lots of resources out there you could just read and test. A few other ones, what love is this? Dave hunt. Does God love all or some, ronnie Rodgers. Soteriology101 is also a good resource to discuss and think through the issues. I was a calvinist for years and I understand the reasoning. I didnt want to leave it when I did. There is just too much evidence and proper exegetical evaluation of the prooftexts, for me to stay a calvinist. The early church taught things completely contrary to calvinism for 300 years. That was the strongest evidence for me. Followed by evaluation of the prooftexts within their actual context and intent. I came to realise what I was doing was reading my own ideas over the text, by not paying attention to the whole context. It's a really long discussion to have, but if your interested in researching it for yourself those are a good place to start.
I don't call myself anything other than a christian but i know that God is infinite.He already knew who would reject Jesus before He even created earth, that is how He is able to call us. That is how our actions and free will are still relevant.God is able to give us a gift of salvation because He already knows the infinite amount of choices we could make provided He even gave us infinite paths to take that do not even exist and wont ever.I also know that any one of us could potentially be who finds salvation on the cross so we must treat each individual as though they can see Gods glory with a bold faith and prayer over them.
I am not even a Calvinist and this seems to be completely off the mark. Either we are capable of touching the perfection of a holy God as humans or we require the divine intervention of a savior, period.
Jacob and Esau do not mean individuals in context in Romans 9. Its a contrast between 2 types of people, those who believe and those who try to be justified by works. Read Malachi 1 and you see why God hates Esau. Read Obadiah 1 for more clarification. Romans 9 has a theme of this idea and Romans 10 gives us the salvation plan. The way calvinists teach romans 9 makes no sense in context of chapters 9-11.
In context of Romans 9 Paul uses the example ofJacob and Esau as individuals, not as nations .Paul as an Apostle has the right under the influence of the Spirit, to change the context of the quote in Malachi,as is done in other quotes from the OT by the apostles.Eg when Israel in Malachi is "called my son" but applied to Jesus in Matthew.
@@neilgrobson58 He uses individuals to give examples of types of people. For example Galatians 3-4. Abraham is an individual, but he points to people of faith, etc.
Yes...the way reformed believers interpret Romans 9 makes perfect sense in it's context alone.People who interpret it any other way, like you, are usually either bringing their presuppositions to the text or they are applying other scriptures to it that have no business being applied.Malachi 1 is God's oracle to the nation of Israel.In that context He is comparing the individuals Israel (Jacob) and Esau to the nations of Israel and Edom.Same with Obadiah.But there is no reason in the text of Romans 9 to think that Paul is doing the same thing.
@@Brenda-qo4ko Not bringing presuppositions, rather bringing in the immediate context. It took almost 400 years to come up with the "reformed" version of the text, and if one were to take their interpretation, it would rewrite how God deals with people throughout the whole Bible. God does not deal with people in an arbitrary way, but rather on a conditional response. There are so many presuppositions by reformed thinkers, that are brought into the text. Yet if we take their interpretation, it makes no sense within the context. Even if Romans 9 was a stand alone passage, I could stick with my points. Here is a simple thing one could do to help understand Romans 9 from a reformed view. Show other examples in scripture found from their understanding of Romans 9. Furthermore if their interpretation is correct, than the only logical conclusion is that damnation is unconditional in the same way that election is unconditional. Here is the logic- Jacob is in heaven for nothing good or bad he has done. Esau is in hell for nothing good or bad that he has done. God merely decided to make them that way for his mysterious purposes. Yet scripture hundreds of times could not more explicitly contradict these claims.
@@Brenda-qo4ko Notice the clear conclusion in Romans 9 by Paul. What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.” Romans 9:30-33 Notice the contrast. The Jews were hardened and damned, because they tried to be justified by works of the law. The Gentiles were justified by faith. This is the clear meaning of Romans 9, and there is no need to rewrite the book of Romans to fit this interpretation. The objector in Romans 9 is a jew who thinks their nationality and adherence to the law will be justified before God. Yet God is rebuking them and saying he chooses who he has mercy on (those who believe) and that he can mold them for his purposes so that they can be used as an example of bringing down pride (Pharaoh) and carnality (Esau). God can use those who reject the Messiah (romans 9:32) as he sees fit.
Calvinists, including John Piper think God’s choosing of Jacob over Esau is about Salvation and this major error has led to the contradiction discussed here. The first 3 or 4 chapters of Romans explains Salvation and Chap 9 deals with the nation Israel. God is saying that He loves Jacob and that His love for Esau is less. God’s choice of Jacob over Esau was to give Jacob’s descendants the privilege and honour of taking God’s Word into the world. Though Esau was the oldest brother, and as such, would normally receive the Blessing, God decided, even before they were born, that the Blessing would go to Jacob. Many Jews may question God’s choice of Jacob, so Paul says, “who are you, O man, who answers back to God?” IT IS A CHOICE OF SERVICE, NOT A CHOICE OF SALVATION. Piper states, “God condemns in the end on the basis of unbelief and sin because He is just.” How can God be just if He condemns on the basis of unbelief when in fact He, before the foundation of the world, chose some to be non-elect and thus unable to believe? In other words, how can God be considered just in condemning a non-elect person for unbelief when that non-elect person is unable to believe? The Bible says that God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. The Bible also says that the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men and God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent. Calvinists, including John Piper have completely misinterpreted Rom 9
The themes of the OT (tanakh) are of covenant, freedom from bondage, and fleeing from idolatry (and obedience to other laws in torah) unlike the NT where the theme is salvation through Jesus Christ. The "reward" so to speak in the OT from fulfilling your choseness is a human (covenantal)flourishing. Something akin to the corresponding results of respecting/obeying the natural law to all people today.
@xwriter100 only a Calvinist would say it is a poor argument. If you believe your understanding is correct then answer the question - how can God be considered just in condemning a non-elect person for unbelief when that non-elect person is unable to believe? My argument is consistent with God’s character, your view that God decides who will believe and who won’t believe is an attack on God’s character. Of course Jacob and Esau are named as individuals in other parts of Scripture but in Rom 9 the context is nations - are you saying God actually hates the individual, Esau?
@@mitchellscott1843 Not sure where you are going with your comments but if you are a Calvinist then answer the question I posed - how can God be considered just in condemning a non-elect person for unbelief when that non-elect person is unable to believe?
Sorry this should have been a regular post. Your post just reminded me that themes of the OT do not reflect a Calvinistic pov, based both on my reading and my takeway from various Jewish scholars/rabbis. Ps: No I'm not a Calvinist @@gregjay9933
+Cloudy Windy D..I read the bible cover to cover..once. In Matthew 6:33..Jesus said to Seek HIM and HIS Righteousness FIRST. That is what I do. He Helped me read the bible the second time and He showed me the verses Relevant for me. Those are the ones I read. Every word in the bible is Not relevant for me. I will Stay with Jesus..but thank you for your opinion.
The questioner is spot on. There is an inherent contradiction in the Calvinist view on election. At least for those Calvinists who do not hold to double predestination. The explanation in the audio doesn't even try to resolve the inconsistency!
You don't know how God makes it so that sinners will sin, so that they will be deserve hell? That sounds awfully close to accusing God of wrongdoing, in saying God determines people to sin, so that he can punish them for choices he wanted them to make. That just doesn't sound like the God of the Bible to me. Look at Ezekiel 18:23 and then again at the end of that chapter. God doesn't take pleasure in the death of anyone. That's why he's pleading with his people to repent of their evil ways, so that they can live and not die. If God takes no pleasure in the death of one who dies, then he certainly doesn't desire people to sin so that he can send them to Hell. That simply is not his character as shown in the scripture. God desires all people to repent and believe, so as to be saved.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC You believe in God and trust that He saved you because Jesus died on the cross for your sins, no? You believed and that is why God saves you. The Bible says that whoever believes is not condemned, will not be put to shame, and whoever comes to Jesus will by no means be turned away.
THE SPIRIT OF GOD YEHOVAH The Spirit of God Yehovah, the true, holy and good Spirit is the spirit of the law of God Yehovah and the spirit of the prophets of God Yehovah and the spirit of the sons, the called, the chosen, the commanded, the mashiach's (anointeds), the prophets, priests, princes, pastors, servants, messengers and people of God Yehovah.. The spirit of God Yehovah is the spirit of the word, law, commandments, ordinances of God Yehovah, the spirit of Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Might (Power) and the Fear of God Yehovah, the spirit of truth, holiness and goodness, the spirit of Supplication and Grace, the spirit of prophecies, visions and dreams and the spirit of the testimony of God Yehovah Whoever is an antillaw is contrary to the prophets of God Yehovah the Lawgiver and is contrary to the spirit of God Yehovah the Lawgiver and is contrary to God Yehovahi the Lawgiver and is contrary to the holy, sanctified, chosen, called, commanded, anointed (mashiach) people of God Yehovah the Lawgiver that are keepers of his holy law as an antimashiach antiyehovah, anticovenant antilaws. He is ungodly and not under the influence of the true, holy and good spirit of God Yehovah but a different false, defiled and evil spirit. Nehemiah 9:6-7,13-14,20,26-30 ASV THOU ART JEHOVAH, EVEN THOU ALONE; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. [7] THOU ART JEHOVAH THE GOD, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham, [13] THOU camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and GAVEST THEM RIGHT ORDINANCES and TRUE LAWS, GOOD STATUTES AND COMMANDMENTS, [14] and madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and COMMANDEDST THEM COMMANDMENTS, and STATUTES, and A LAW, BY MOSES THY SERVANT, [20] THOU GAVEST ALSO THY GOOD SPIRIT TO INSTRUCT THEM, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. [26] Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their back, and slew THY PROPHETS THAT TESTIFIED AGAINST THEM TO TURN THEM AGAIN UNTO THEE, and they wrought great provocations. [27] Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their adversaries, who distressed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies THOU GAVEST THEM SAVIOURS WHO SAVED THEM out of the hand of their adversaries. [28] But after they had rest, they did evil again before thee; therefore leftest thou them in the hand of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them: yet when they returned, and cried unto thee, thou heardest from heaven; and many times didst thou deliver them according to thy mercies, [29] and TESTIFIEDST AGAINST THEM, THAT THOU MIGHTEST BRING THEM AGAIN UNTO THY LAW. Yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thine ordinances (which if a man do, he shall live in them), and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear. [30] Yet many years didst THOU bear with them, and TESTIFIEDST AGAINST THEM BY THY SPIRIT THROUGH THY PROPHETS: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. Zechariah 7:12 ASV Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear THE LAW, AND THE WORDS WHICH JEHOVAH OF HOSTS HAD SENT BY HIS SPIRIT BY THE FORMER PROPHETS: therefore there came great wrath from Jehovah of hosts. Isaiah 63:10 ASV But THEY REBELLED, AND GRIEVED HIS HOLY SPIRIT: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Proverbs 29:27 ASV An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous; And he that is upright in the way is an abomination to the wicked. Isaiah 11:2 ASV And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. Joel 2:28 ASV And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Zechariah 12:10 ASV And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. Micah 3:8 ASV But as for me, I am full of power by the Spirit of Jehovah, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.
It is contradiction all the time. Saying that God control every choice is to make Him responsible for that choice. He choices. Therefore the calvinists made God responsible. And they need to use the expression "We don't know how". It's because in fact it contradicts the logical of simple and pure Scriptures.
Romans 9 is Paul using the nation of Israel's own history to show why the nation is rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. In Romans 9:1-5 we see Paul’s grief over the unbelief of his people. In verse 9:3, he compares his kinsmen, the nation of Israel, to idolators who deserve death by the sword. This is the first Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Romans 9:6, Paul distinguishes between the nation of Israel and Spiritual Israel. Then in Romans 9:7-9 he tells us that this has not ruined God’s plan, because God chooses His people through faith in Christ, the Seed of Abraham, not according to natural lineage. He illustrated this by comparing unbelieving Israel to Ishmael, and the Church to Isaac. This is the second Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Paul did this in Galatians 4:21-31 as well. So, national Israel’s unbelief did not hinder God’s promises to Israel because God’s people, Israel, are reckoned by the Spirit and not by the flesh. In verse 9 he brings in Genesis 18:10 and 14 because in this passage, Sarah is doubting God's promise like the nation of Israel doubts Messiah and Paul's message. This is the third Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Then in Romans 9:10-13 Paul compares the nation of Israel to Esau who sold his birthright for some porridge, and the Church to Jacob who became the greater of two nations. The Older, Nation of Israel, has served the Younger, the Church, by bringing forth Messiah to bless all families of the earth (Genesis 12:2-3) and by preserving the oracles of God. This is the fourth Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Paul emphasized in verses 10-13 that we are members of Spiritual Israel by the grace of God through faith in Christ, not by the works of the Law of Moses. In Romans 9:14-18 he reiterates that becoming members of God’s people is by the sheer mercy of God alone, a mercy that is received through the easy yoke of faith, not the striving labor of the Law. Pharoah was hardened by God like He is hardening Israel (Romans 11:7). This is the fifth Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” Israel has resisted God's will repeatedly. Stephen says so in Acts 7:51. That's why God uses Potter/Clay in Jeremiah 18 and Isaiah. The imperfect Clay spoils in the perfect Potter's hand. Potter/Clay solves the tension between God's sovereignty and man's free will. Romans 9:20-21 connects to Jeremiah 18 by the Potter and the Clay Analogy. By alluding to this passage in Jeremiah 18, Paul is telling the unbelieving nation of Israel, whom he is hypothetically debating with, that God has justly hardened Israel and used their sin to glorify His name just like He did with Pharaoh. Israel is guilty for their rebellion and unbelief, and also for their persecution of God's elect people, the Body of Christ. The fact that God's plan is not harmed by them does nothing to lessen their guilt. In Romans 9:22-24 he points out that the unbelieving Jews, who make up the large part of the nation of Israel at that time, have been formed into vessels of wrath. And the remnant of Jewish believers along with the Gentle believers are vessels of mercy. This second group makes up the Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 9:22b is often mistranslated. There's a free online Harvard Theological Review article showing this issue, "Vessels of Wrath and God’s Pathos: Potter/Clay Imagery in Rom 9:20-23" Paul proves His point by referencing prophecies in 9:25-29. Unfortunately, many Calvinist exegesis stop at verse 24 because the beloved doctrine of Unconditional Election is no longer inferable by Paul's quoting of the Old Testament. Paul brings his whole argument into focus in 9:30-10:4. The Church obtains righteousness by faith, but the nation of Israel thought righteousness was by lineage and following works of the Law of Moses.
We need to stop talking about God's love and his hatred / rejection in terms of conditional or unconditional when the Bible reveals that God is sovereign, meaning he is purposeful in using his omniscience, omnipotence, and total authority toward specific goals in history. Since God is sovereign, nothing is unconditional and everything depends on the decisions he has made in eternity past about how everything would play out. If God loves you and saves you, that is based on the condition that he determined before creation to give your soul to Jesus Christ to be redeemed so that you could enjoy his love and worship him forever, and if God hates you and rejects you, it is based on the condition that he predetermined to leave your soul captive to Satan through the spiritual death of your sin nature that you inherited from Adam, thus ensuring that you will continue on in hostility and rebellion against him and refuse to repent and surrender to Jesus in faith and ultimately end up in Hell. These decisions were made by God and not based on us or anything that we would do, but based solely on what God has willed which cannot be thwarted. Therefore, it is not inconsistent to affirm with the Bible that while none of the elect deserve to be loved unto salvation and go to Heaven, ALL of the nonelect deserve to be rejected and go to Hell, because just like our being favored by God precedes what we do, the nonelect being hated by God precedes what they do, yet they deserve it not just because of their sin but because God has a right to do whatever he wills with what he made and if he decides to reject you then you deserve it because he is sovereign and he decides what is right. At the same time, no one who is rejected by God and goes to Hell is going there ONLY because of God's choice but also because of their own sin and unrepentance. And contrary to what Piper said, we DO KNOW, how God sees to it that the nonelect become guilty of condemnation. In providence, God cursed all of Adam's descendants with a sin nature which binds everyone to Satan through the dominating desires of the flesh, and unless God intervenes to grant new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit and repentance and faith, we will remain in a state of blindness, hostility, and unrepentance, and by our actions deserve doubly to perish. This is, again, conditional upon whether or not God has chosen in eternity past to save someone or not, and if he hasn't chosen to do so he is not wrong because as our Sovereign creator he has the right to save some and reject others, and our decisions throughout history affirm rather than determine our destiny. We are told why God decided to elect some and not others, but we are not told what he based his election and rejection on, and we don't need to know because what matters is that God is sovereign, just, and gracious, and it is for the purpose of sharing his love with his people to the maximal degree that he governs all things. All of these points are covered in Romans 9 and they are consistent.
I have to say that you have layed down the law and lifted up Christ in this sermon on the infallible and faithful nature of God. He is the unconditional condition, the one upon whom all things rely and abide by. Amen
It in no way say God loved Jacob and Hated Esau BEFORE they were born It states God chose before they were born and what was chosen? Genesis 25:21-23 There was something about this birth that greatly distressed her But God said“Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, This is actually the first clue we are not talking about individuel salvation but a nation for the purposes of 1 displaying Gods power and strength, Keeping of God's law for the world, and the vessel to bring about his seed, Paul is saying Gods election in this regard was chosen in Jacob before they were born But to make the point that he is not talking about in their life times he stated the older shall serve the younger so you understand, because at no point did Esau serve Jacob in their life time, But Jacob returned to him humbled Next “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” In which he is quoting Malachi 1 And what is going on here in Malachi is it that Esau was hated in the womb? NO not even close there was judgment on Esau or Edom as it was known for what they did to Israel as recorded in Obadiah 1:10-15 “For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever. And what is being said about Jacob I loved? but that Jacob rejected Gods love and profaned the sacrifice and for this reason Gods judgment is going to come upon them IF they do not repent, But as usual Gods Open arms are always available IF they humble themselves Remember the whole purpose of Romans 9 is to show Why even though Israel failed this does not Mean Gods Promises failed
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Not "all" but every single person who comes into the world. 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction
2 Peter 2:1. We don’t know who bought them. Was it God or Jesus? We don’t know that answer. Romans 9 is about Salvation and how God elects vs going to a passage taking about who Jesus is. Jesus is the light to every man and the Lord of Everyman but does every man believe? No. Is every man saved? No. John is explaining that Jesus is God and he is not talking about salvation. Roger
@@davidkampisch5878 "What then, the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, that is, a righteousness by faith, but Israel which pursued a law of righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law? Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as it were by works." Thats in Romans 9 towards the end of the chapter. Quoted from memory, since I don't have my Bible at the moment.
I think we need more of the lords light on Romans 9. God did not create men for perdition and men for eternal life Ezekiel 18:23 NASBS Matthew 25:41 NASBS [41] "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been PREPARED FOR the devil and his angels; - not for man [23] Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? Titus 2:11 NASBS [11] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL men, 1 Timothy 2:4 NASBS [4] who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. John 12:32 NASBS [32] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Why does the Bible say in so many places that Jesus died so that everyone would have a chance at everlasting life if he only died for the elect? What would be the purpose of all of us being here and going through all of this, and being emotionally tied to each other, if we don’t have free will?
@@lettherebedots 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Ezk 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ezk 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezk 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? Ezk 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Ezk 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Ezk 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God So Loved the World Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
praise Jesus...may everyone turn from this heresy that God predestines some to eternal damnation and predestined some to salvation. Blatant contradiction. No mystery sir
God didn't predestine us to sin leading to the punishment of spiritual and physical death.Adam did that all on his own and consequently all of us inherited a sin nature rebellious to God leading to us all deserving death.
I love John Piper!! That being said, this is not a perplexing or doctrine-breaking question (@7:50) as it's made out to be here (i.e. If God predestines a person to perdition, how does God see to it that the person truly DESERVES to be punished eternally?). Well, as I see it, God has eternally decided that a person will be punished in Hell (reprobation), then He has not that person to have "" (Matt. 13:9 If anyone has ears to hear let him hear); He has not them (Acts 11:18 God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life); When they are shown the testimony of God through hearing the Gospel, they will thus REJECT the Son of God (a fatal sin in itself); thus they will spend their lives in darkness, servants of the devil, they will "not only practice those things that are worth of death, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them (Rom. 1:32). Now will we ask, what can God do to ensure that this person is deserving of his destiny?? Huh????. Mind you, this person may be a model citizen, a "good person" in today's parlance, a good parent, etc., and we take no pleasure in their destiny. We pray for every person within our sphere to not be That Person. This is why I don't take the label "Calvinist", though have believed in divine unconditional election for 46 of my 47 years as a Christian. I don't find the Five Points tremendously helpful, and don't get me started about debates such as Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. Sorry for the rant, if you read this far, I hope it helped!
The comment system made a mess of this, the text engine allowed me to add bold and underlining, then deleted these parts when I saved it. Live & learn.
If God pre-destined us then we ain’t got free will, which is one of the foundational things about God’s grace Or else what’s the point of faith - genuine faith? Calvinism doesn’t stack up to me BUT it’s not the end of the world and I’ll see y’all in heaven anyway so keep following God the best way you can 👍
He never answered the question. Why would damnation be conditional, if election is unconditional? Doesn't the verse that is referenced refer to both Jacob and Esau? If Jacob is being elected unconditionally, not based on anything good or bad? Then why is Esau being condemned upon something bad (sin)? That is not being consistent with the text.
Hmmm okay, I might understand, although I found your questions confusing at first. I think maybe your questions come from a premise that might be the actual difference between your views and John Piper's. John's premise: God is just Premise 2: every person sins Conclusion: every person is condemned (or, "hated" by God) So it makes sense that every person, if they are "earning" anything, it is God's wrath. See John 3:36, which says that the wrath of God abides on him who does not believe. Belief is the difference, because their faith is what saves them. But do they choose to believe? No, God chooses to give faith to those He chose (Ephesians 2:8-9). There is much in scripture about this, but read John 6 and write down what God does and what people do and consider what is earned and what is not earned. If I'm reading right, your premises are as follows: Premise 1: God is just Premise 2: People do good and bad things Conclusion: some are condemned, some aren't Romans 3 demonstrates all deserve God's wrath, Romans 1 declares God's wrath over all mankind. None will escape His judgment. Please look over those bible passages and let me know what you think!
@@IbeTali I agree with everything your saying except that faith is not a choice. Yes everyone deserves condemnation and every person is a sinner. But where from Romans 9:11 does Piper see that God has man's sin in view? If Jacob is eternally loved by God and Esau is eternally damned by God and it is according to nothing the twins have done good (including faith) and bad (including sin) than how is he damning people for sin? Do you get where I'm coming from? I reject unconditional election and what I believe to be leftover as unconditional reprobation. The theme I believe Paul is showing with the analogy of Jacob and Esau is one of faith vs. works. In no way does God view ones good works (the law) or anything good or bad to try to live up to him. Rather as Paul establishes he views faith which he contrasts with works and clearly teaches in not of works. That is why his conclusion at the end of the chapter says they pursued it not by faith. And he goes on to establish in Romans 10 on how one is saved by faith in Christ. Which according to the passage is a choice. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. Romans 9:32 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above ) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:6-9 Notice where these passages are taken from in the OT. “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, Deuteronomy 30:11-19
@@calvinpeterson9581 Thank you for your response!! I rejoice that you recognize faith as a gift and perceive God's justice which no man can stand before. Also, I think you're correct in saying God's hatred of Esau is not judgment. However, if you'll kindly listen to the words of a stranger, yet I think one who has the Spirit of God ;), I believe the text reads that God's hatred results in His lack of intervention, while His love results in His act of intervention. After all, there is not a passage there found which describes God calling Esau to eternal damnation, is there? Did Paul ever say God sets up people to sin so that they will not turn to Him? No, God cannot be tempted nor does He tempt. Rather, God does NOT help some, but helps others. "I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion," He says. He does not say "And I will have stumbling blocks on whom I will have stumbling blocks," no, God is not the author of evil, but of good. So those who stumble over Christ are those who God does not help, but those who see and embrace Christ are those God does. What do you think of this definition of God's hatred? Is there anything in the text of Romans 9 that I may have overlooked indicating God's hatred as actively inducing people to rebel against Him?
@@IbeTali I agree God is definitely not causing people to rebel against him by his power and as you pointed out it is rather that God is giving them over to their wickedness, because they are already that way. Rather what I'm pointing out is where does Piper/Calvinists get the idea that God is damning Esau for his sin. Here is an example. God is a coach and he decides to choose certain people on his team. This choice is completely up to him and no one can know why. Also to the ones that aren't chosen for the team he tells them that it's not anything good or bad for not being chosen, it's just based upon his Sovereign choice. (Piper's view, and examples always fall apart). Now what I'm saying is the coach desires for all to be on the team and he calls everyone to the team. But his criteria happens to not be how good one is at the sport (law and works), but rather about those who's hearts love the coach (faith and repentance). Now to the ones who are good at the Sport (objector in Romans 9) this seems unfair. Then why did God make me this way? Then Paul's conclusion (they pursued it by the law and not by faith) makes more sense. Also how he goes onto Romans 10 to establish between works and faith. God has mercy on who he has mercy and according to Romans 10 it is whoever calls upon the name of the Lord. It is not about natural ability, heritage, special privileges or being amongst his people. Rather it is based upon knowing him and loving him. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27
@@calvinpeterson9581 You know, your explanation is really wonderful. I find that very clarifying and helpful. I would never have expected to be edified by a conversation over RUclips comments, haha! But I'll have to go back and listen again to this Ask Pastor John again; I remember in an earlier sermon, he was saying the same thing as you, that Jacob couldn't have earned God's love because he hadn't done good or evil. But isn't Esau still under original sin? And Jacob too? Doesn't that earn God's disfavor? And what did you mean earlier by "faith is a choice?"
Deuteronomy isn't a get out clause! I'm a Calvinist but this just created a little doubt in my mind by suggesting that God is intentionally confusing us 😐
Romans 9:18 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." What does it mean that he hardens who he hardens? This is an issue of trusting in God's judgment.
@@jacksobrooks He hardens who He hardens but according to Calvinism the unelect are born hardened, so who is God hardening here? I would say those who freely choose to reject Him. This would be consistent with the beginning of Romans
@@MrRono19 Paul writes to believes saying that they were formerly at emnity with God. We are all hardened and need to be softened. Dead and needing to be made alive. It is by the power of God that we are called.
@@MrRono19 Calvinist don't believe that people are born hardened by God.Anyone who says that is misrepresenting what we believe according to scripture.Scripture tells us that we inherited our sin nature through Adam's willful disobedience.Consequently that sin nature makes it impossible for people to not sin.This rebelliousness towards God and His laws makes us unable to choose for God unless God intervenes by His grace and regenerates us.In the Bible God only is said to harden people's hearts who were already inclined to be ungodly.
It’s not click bait… I’m a current Calvinist… If you would like the short Consistent Calvinist answer to the “mystery” of Gods Unconditional Election click here… ruclips.net/video/57zJjUjbbso/видео.html If you would like the deeper, more detailed, version click here… ruclips.net/video/GOgqSTsYySo/видео.html
This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah Psalms 24:6 Who is Jacob according to this verse? (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:11 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, Romans 4:5 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. Romans 9:31-32 Could Paul's conclusion give light to the verse that Calvinists try to prove is unconditional election? Could it be Paul in verse 11 is talking about the law when he is saying good and bad and not referring to faith? It seems his conclusion at the end of chapter 9 is clear, Israel is not saved because they did not pursue God through faith, but rather by works.
Interesting take. I’ve wondered about some of that, never heard good or bad pointing to an argument about not needling by faith. I think the issue at the end of the day is that your interpretation still assumes that sinful man can on his volition seek after Christ, which biblically is not possible. I’m preaching through John right now and mans Unwillingness to come to Christ is Everywhere. Jesus came in to the world and the world did not know him. He came to His own and His own did not receive Him John 1:10-11 I believe. He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were [i]born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. It is a threefold negation of all of mans options. Born “not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man.” It literally says it’s nothing you plans, choose, or will. So it must be God hence, “but of God.” Even after the famous John3:16 Jesus gives a “verdict” and says that the reason people don’t come to him is because their deeds are evil. That is everyone. With Nicodemus he was something has to happen to you “be born again.” And he uses an analogy whose sole purpose is to use an example where the person being born was the passive agent. If we weren’t dead in sins, lovers of darkness, constantly rejecting Jesus. Sure, we would come to him. But we love darkness rather than light. Just some food for thought
@@TheFrost2003 I agree that men are wicked and do not seek God, until God seeks man first. Yet from scripture it seems he seeks after all men (John 12:32, Luke 5:32, acts 17:30). And those who seek him in return he will save (Isaiah 55:6-7). That men must be born again in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Yet being born again is synonymous with given eternal life and he only gives eternal life to those who believe (John 3:15). Man has the ability to believe by the Spirit of God, but not the ability to save themselves. Romans 10 teaches that all men have the ability to believe. Yet this power of being born of God is given freely by God's grace to all who believe (John 1:12-13).
@@calvinpeterson9581 Thanks for your interpretation. I believe that scripture teaches that those who come will be saved, and at the same time, no one can come unless they are drawn. Prevenient grace is a great philosophy but is yet not taught in scripture. At the end of the day, we have to deal with what Jesus accomplished on the cross. If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world specifically, no one would be in hell. Yet, we know all are not saved and that what he accomplished was accomplished with the elect in mind.
@@robertharnden5472 I agree all who come will be saved and no one can come to him unless they are drawn. As far as scripture teaches if Christ died for everyone than no one would go to hell. The cross of Christ does save, but his word teaches that it only saves those who trust in him. Until one believes in Christ they are under his wrath (John 3:36). They are separated from Christ (Ephesians 2:12). One must be in Union with Christ in order to receive the benefits of the cross. Yet one is in Union with Christ only through faith (Ephesians 1:13, Hebrews 11:6). The payment that Christ paid for only goes into the account of all who confess him as Lord and follow him. Yet the riches of God in Christ is enough for all people. That is why scripture teaches to preach the gospel (that Christ died for them) to everyone. The proclamation of the gospel is that Christ died for you according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:3). Yet one must receive the gospel and continue in faith (1 Cor. 15:1-3).
It wasn't until I got a better handle of original sin, and how Adam's sin and God's subsequent punishment for sin (which is death) was imputed to all mankind, that I understood that before we are even born, in God's eyes, we are guilty and deserve death.And of course that's related to the sin nature of mankind.So God is just in punishing the guilty (of which we all fall into that category) and is just by showing mercy on those he chooses to show mercy (His elect who He calls by His grace and regenerates) according to His good purposes.The only unjust thing God could do is to not punish any of us who are all guilty and deserve punishment.
This answer really doesn't hold up. If God's love for Jacob (before any works) was unconditional, then a consistent interpretation would mean that his hatred for Esau (before any works) would also be unconditional. That is unless the Calvinistic interpretation is off track from what Paul is saying. To be clear, Paul was not quoting what God said before they were born... he was quoting what God said to Malachi after Edom had persecuted Israel. The love and hate for Jacob and Esau was the same concept of love and hate seen in Jacob's wives - Rachel and Leah. He loved Rachel more than Leah. It was the same "hate" that Jesus commanded when he said that if we did not hate our families then we could not be His disciple. It doesn't mean hatred, but rather "love less." Jacob was blessed with the national election and Esau was not. However, Paul is contrasting national election from the election to salvation... that's why he's saying that not all Jews were saved and yet Gentiles were saved.
@@20july1944 no response.... obviously. That is because Calvinists don't think for themselves. They are told how to think by Calvinist theologians. Kinda like Muslims
@@MrRono19 Not sure i would call my self a calvinist but agree with almost all their theology even tho I always used to believe arminian view wich makes no sense sense to me now
Molinism is a philosophical construct that attempts to help maintain a synergistic soteriology but has no solid basis in scripture.So for that reason I reject it.
@@Brenda-qo4ko the trinity is also a philosophical concept used to explain God's relationship with Himself. On tht bases do you also reject the Trinity? God gave us minds to use, to seek to understand Him. Nothing in Molinism contradicts scripture and if applied to things in matters where God's sovereignty and man's free will seem to contradict, it gives a reasonable explanation. It helps us understand and interpret scripture in a consistent way that gives all the glory to God. Don't understand why you simply reject it for the reason you give. There is scripture to support it as well as the reasons I gave.
God is sovereign and chooses his children but he doesnt predestinate our choices in life. Yes he makes us spiritually alive but doesn't ordain whether I obey the gospel or not. If an elect person commits adultery that is not ordained by God, God did not order that, I have the will to walk in God's spirit or not. God does choose the rise and fall of nations and people have fulfilled prophecy (Judas Iscariot) but small matters like me going to church or staying in bed or drinking and driving or any kind of sin I commit or refrain from is yours and my will.
I love Piper, but he’s wrong. It’s not complicated. The point of Romans 9 is not about the severity of God’s freedom to save and damn who He chooses. The point is to show Israel that God is free to be merciful to whoever He wishes. And that they’re wrong for pursuing the covenant promises by works of the law, rather than by faith. Ironically, he’s saying, they’re playing the role of Esau, instead of Jacob. It’s a humbling passage for us all, Jews and Gentiles alike.
Yes, you are. Romans 9 isn't about some divine lotto. Well, if you scrap the greater context of Romans, I guess you can make it seem that way. But who would do that?
@@IbeTali It just so happens that people who hold to reformed theology can justify every assertion of their theology with scripture that clearly states it.So where's the "staw man"?
"Jacob i loved but Esau i hated" comes from Malachi 1, 2-4, written 1500 years after jacob and esau were dead, and is about god loving and favoring a nation over another, and destroying the other nation because of their sin. Esau is edom (verse 3-4) and jacob is israel. These verses have nothing to do with the individuals jacob and esau according to the old testament context of malachi 1. So the question is, would Paul take that verse out of the Old Testament context to make it mean something it didn't orignally mean? I would argue No. He would not do that... Not only that, but the verse "the older will serve the younger" follows right after god tells rebekka she has two nations in her womb, so this verse also isnt about jacob and esau. esau never served jacob a day in his life. If anything, when jacob meets esau after betraying him, he calls himself esau's servant and begs forgiveness. Esau forgives him, rejects the offer to have jacob serve him, and the two live separate lives after that. However, Edom (nation from esau) ended up serving israel after israel subdued them in battle. Once again the question, would paul take the old testmant verse out of its original conext and historical meaning to make it about the individuals jacob and esau? Again, i dont buy that. If you can simply take any verse out of its context and make it mean something it didnt orginally mean, how can we rely on any verses or say we know which interpretation is correct?
Paul uses the qiote to speak of the brothers as individuals,not as representative of nations.The context is that they had done neither good nor bad,talking about the personal actions of either individual. Paul changes the context in his quote from nations to the historical persons, he was being inspired by the Spirit when doing so, as an apostle .
@@neilgrobson58 so you're arguing that Paul, under the Holy Spirit, ripped the texts out of their original context to manipulate them to mean something the Holy Spirit didn't intend them to originally mean or represent? Seems to me a dangerous way to allow any text to be manipulated into what we want it to say. It's key to note that Rabbis in Paul's day taught that God chose Jacob and therefore Israel for His plan in bringing the Messiah to the world because of Jacob's righteousness. Very clearly in the New Testament the Jews/Pharisees thought they were righteous enough for God, and so they were the natural choice for God's nation, hence rejection of Jesus and gentiles. I think Paul is disproving that in this verse.
@@tonygrigg1173 there are other instances where quotes from the OT are changed in the new. He did not rip it apart,The Holy Spirit inspired Paul. The context although in the OT referring to nations,clearly in Pauls usage means two individual children.He did not manipulate the text, the Holy Spirit used it in another way. "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad" refers to Rebekahs children,in context,and not two nations.To claim it as two nations here, is not good exegesis.There are other places where Pauls adds phrases from two ot three different passages to make a compound verse,he does so under the influence of the Spirit,not of his own .
@@neilgrobson58 once again, please show me then how the verse about the older serving the younger, which is the very next verse, is about esau and jacob. Esau never served jacob. But edom did serve israel. And up until Augustine in the 400's AD, so I've heard, the church itself didn't even interpret Romans 9 as refering to individual salvation. I agree its about the individuals to some degree, but only to prove Paul's point that God never chose Israel because of the "fathers" righteousness (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as individuals to ground a nation of God's people). In Paul's day the Jews thought they were rigtheous enough for God and also naturally saved because of their nationality. "All Jews are saved, right?" That's what I think Paul is trying to disprove in Romans 9 - People falsely believing they are God's children when they are not.
Rom 9 addresses God's absolute sovereignty with the nation of Israel to bring about Salvation though Jesus's crucifixion. The Basics:. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (NOW!) and thou shalt be saved." Rejecters will not be. Why wouldn't the myriads of similar verses not say "those chosen to believe at creation will be saved"? Because it would be an accursed predestined different gospel! Those that Do believe are predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. Will "it was predestined" be a viable excuse at the Great White Throne Judgement? Believe and trust the Bible, not men! Let God be true and every man a liar!
Piper’s explanation is terrible. Romans 9 clearly teaches unconditional reprobation! God HATED little baby Esau and as a result forces Esau to sin unto damnation!
Pastor John gets this wrong completely. "The scriptures teach that everyone who is sentenced to eternal condemnation, deserves to be there - ... - Nobody is in hell who doesn't deserve to be there - they will be there because of their unbelief and their sin." Everyone is a sinner and EVERYONE is sentenced to eternal condemnation and EVERYONE deserves to be there because of the fall. It is through belief in Jesus Christ as their savior and on that basis alone that we are brought to God. When you confuse the Elect and God's Mercy as Paul describes with Eternal Salvation you end up equating the Elect with "having caused a belief, uncondtionally, in Jesus Christ" and that belief was powered by God, not by yourself and you end up with the mental gymnastics that Calvinists wind up in.
I also know that God always knew Satan would fall, He still loved him no differently from the beginning because the fall of Satan holds nothing over the character of the Lord.
Calvinists are the only Christians who are intelligent enough to interpret the Bible in a logical way. If they are honest enough they may also make the next logical step - a step away from believing that the Bible is true. The reason you don't see this is that you reason based on emotion instead of pure logic.
+Jacob Chesney..I am not a Christian..I am a Follower of Jesus. Jesus said.."To Seek Him FIRST for HIS Righteousness." . That is what I Do. Jesus shows me which bible verses are Right for me. I have a Personal relationship with Jesus..(as anyone can) but if you prefer Everyone in your bible..that is fine with me.
Calvinism coming from an expository teacher, the best of whom are Calvinists. This isn't surprising, though. The bible teaches the main tenants of Calvinism. After all, that's where the theology comes from. Arminians have a really difficult time defending what they believe, since it's normally an abstract interpretation of the verses they use.
@Sheep Dog yes was once a calvinist... everyone is guilty for their own! sin and it's better to follow the spirit than man... whether it be John Piper John MacArthur or Francis Chan....its faith plus works! Faith without works is dead
@@jacobchesney1558 there are more views than just Calvinism and Arminianism. Sure you can fit all of Calvinism in the Bible, but you cant fit all the Bible in Calvinism. There are simply too many parts that don't fit consistently into the Calvinist view
Jacob Chesney I’m definitely open to what you have to say, so what makes him choose one person over another? It just seems as is it’s random that way. I used to thing election was based off of repentance and belief, but those are granted. Can you use scripture to support your belief?
@@noahinson Sure, I look to Romans 9:11. It is according to God, who calls. It's just that simple. God has a desire to call a specific people according to His will. That's all there is to it, really. Random would be if God rolled dice or pulled straws, but this isn't the way the bible describes election. So it's not about us, it's about God and His purposes, which are a mystery to us.
This, by far, the lowest instant I ever seen about someone trying to refute the predestination; are you trying to do the 'mirroring' the Scripture itself?
@@Mimu1983 I'm not refuting predestination. I am saying that there is nowhere in scripture that says God predestined certain folks to hell before the foundations of the earth were laid. It's that simple. I would ask that if you think I'm wrong, then cite book, chapter, and verse. But I already know you cant!
@@1974jrod I know where this conversation is going. Okay, now and then I meet people like you. Let me be rhetorical to your question - do you have a problem with some people are predestined to be the children of God (Eph.1:5)? There are people who have been predestined to have sonship to God, while it is not true for all men. It is a simple logic of deduction which I am confident that you have mastered during the early stage of your life; this is my way to say how inappropriate your question is without being directly confrontational. I seriously do not know why but there are people who say they believe in Jesus Christ, and they are saved THEN they argue about how unfair to have someone predestined to hell instead of being grateful of having their salvation prepared before they were born. Yes we ought to love and grieve for the lost people, yes we ought to pray for them BUT it never occurred to me that we ought to speak and advocate the Equality of Salvation which so many anti-Calvinists fantasize about.
@@Mimu1983 A logical deduction? Based on what? Do you realize that scripture that is explicit about salvation trumps someone's implicit interpretation about scripture? Or any other writing for that matter. The thing is, you have no idea where this conversation is going. You presuppose that your powers of interpretation, and Pipers, interpretation of implied verses , somehow contradict, John the Baptist, Jesus, and Paul's explicit writings concerning the salvation of men. And I already told you , I have no problem with predestination at all. What I do have a problem with is, is dickwads like Piper, Sproul, Carson, etc, running around like arrogant pharisees, telling the world that God predestinates certain folks to hell before the foundations of the world , when in facts he absolutely does not. Now either I am right , or I am wrong, but I can tell you if I am wrong, then according to your idiotic interpretation, scripture is contradictory and it might as well be thrown away.
@@1974jrod Unless you are NOT one of the Elect, what is your problem with God sending the unrepenting, unconverted, unbelieving people to Hell? It is basically in the Scripture about what God will do to those people, and I find it rather funny to see those people raising an objection about God doing His righteousness upon the enemies to God. You cannot grasp the idea that, as God has chosen His people before the time, there are people whom God hates thus subjected to (will be subjected to) His wrath - because you think that it is not FAIR. I think you are from one of those Independent Baptist Churches; no, I am not denouncing or villainizing all of them but I am under the impression that some of those churches are hatching low-quality pseudo-Arminian theologies (involving much of attempts to undermine some of the well-known pastors, especially of Calvinists). Their theologies are being justified not through the entirety of the Scripture, but cherry-picking of Word suitable for their own interpretations. Why people made their own idol named 'GOD IS LOVE', I can understand. Some of those people even try to make God a politically correct being - even if the Scripture reveals that He is not. I do not think any of those people would ever try to justify why Israelites were commanded to eradicate the Canaanite tribes in the Old Testament. Tell me, would you challenge God about why they deserve to perish? I think the picture of what happens to (and how God ordains for those) Elects and non-Elects is VERY CLEAR here. Do you seriously think it is wrong to say the Elect will go to Heaven and God have ordained the others to Hell? Then take it up to God Himself as it is He who shall do it. Well, unless you now want to discredit the Book of Revelation. It is you and your kind of people first came up with the term "A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE" for both sides - where did you learn to simply define the Elect as "A GROUP OF PEOPLE" in the first place? Setting aside my disgust for your word plays, tell me if it is not true that '2 - 1 = 1' is correct. Of all people, we have the people who have been predestined to be the children of God. Then there are the rest who have not been predestined to be the children of God. Unless you are telling me people can go to Heaven and enjoy the fellowship with God without being the children of God, those are going to Hell. PERIOD. It is wrong to point fingers and be judgemental, but if you find the statement that some people will go to Hell because God has made them to be what they are offensive or wronged anyone, then come up with a better theology than the Scripture.
Why would Anyone care what Calvinists or Paul said? when they can Have Jesus? Personally to Guide them in the Way they should go? I Seek Jesus..as He Ask..and it is He..Who Helps me Know what is Right for me and that which I should think and do. He is a Personal Savior..and He does Not Need Pastor John..Paul..or Calvinists!
So when Paul says something you don't like, even though it's right there in the scriptures, you're gonna ignore it because Jesus? This isn't how we coherently understand the Bible. At that point, just throw the whole thing out. Paul had the authority of the Holy Spirit to write God's truth, as did the Gospel writers. Either its all God's word or it isn't.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance all that Jesus taught and would teach all truth. Paul had encounters with Jesus, perhaps by visions. Peter called Paul's writings "scripture" on a par with the Old Testament. So when you denigrate the writings of Paul, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul's words, you reject the promise of Jesus, and you reject part of the teachings of Jesus. You know that Luke and Mark were not apostles, right? They got their information by interviewing and listening to the apostles and other witnesses. Luke accompanied Peter and Paul, and Mark relied mostly on Peter. What you are doing is choosing Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- two of who weren't even primary witnesses -- over other apostles. This is "schism," or as translated in the KJV, "heretical." In addition, Jesus addressed first-century Jews living under the Temple system and the Mosaic Law. Are you a Jew? Do you live under the Mosaic covenant with Israel? Do you present sacrifices at the temple? You must be a greater scholar than the greatest scholars among the apostles if you know how to apply Jesus' words to 21st-century gentile life.
@@RichardWheeler-SE-BA-PM Indeed Richard... She's living a delusion is an excommunicated Mormon who still holds to those relational archetypes and spends personal time conversing with Jesus... It's only now 6 months after this, she's getting white bold and aggressive.
GOD is not constrained to time and space. HE’s actually outside of them. So that there’s no past, present or future to HIM. In GOD’s eyes I just exist. If I was created in resemblance of HIM I do have the eternity within me. Indeed I’m in eternity (that’s why everyone will rise again in the LORD’s Day). I don’t realize this because my flesh is limited to understand all implications that derive from this. That’s why Paul talks about vessels of honor/dishonor. You are what you are to GOD’s eyes. BUT there’s a great danger to think about life only in this way because GOD wants that all sinners repent and turn to HIM. This means that the future is not written. Everywhere The Gospel invites the sinners to believe in JESUS CHRIST. So it’s up to you in your lifespan to decide what you really are: a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. Conclusion: it’s all up to you! That’s how I see it - like seeing in a blurry mirror.
Aaron Lui Why so many invitations The Bible does to the sinners? Why the Bible says that GOD “...wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”? 1 Timothy 2:3-4 CSB Once the creation doesn’t constraint His Creator, GOD acts are not constrained to time/space where we live today. And we cannot grasp all the greatness of GOD. But He shares with us a little bit of what He is and how He acts. I must repeat: there’s no time/space to GOD, that’s why He says: I am what I am. He doesn’t foresee because He’s above the time. Why He told to the thief on the cross: “today you’ll be with me in the heaven” if the judgement day is yet to come? I’m not denying the biblical doctrines Calvin taught to us. I’m just using a new perspective. Because, in our limited grasp of the greatness of our Creator, I have to conclude: I must repent of my sins and turn to GOD through JESUS CHRIST alone. It’s all up to me! So help me GOD!
Yep a deeper understanding of time and eternity is key to understanding predestination and free will. Men like Piper, RC Sprool and likely Calvin also understand freewill better than most who adhere to freewill doctrine, but they still fell to bring it full circle in view of eternity. Aaron is right that WE would never chose God, but that God has given us everything in this world the good and that bad that all points towards him. In that way God is directing and influencing our choice, but in no way does he ever dictate our choice. Additionally he most certainly does have foreknowledge of our choice. Our freewill in this world is what will bring about a perfect Edom like eternity in which their will never be another fall, yet we will still have a free will choice in heaven to rebel just as Jesus did while on earth. Consider it this way: In order for God's creation to be perfect He had to create us with the ability to make a choice. If God just dictated our choices he would be acting just like Satan and we could never have true perfection. Imagine you were appointed with the task of picking 2 strangers to get married to one another. They had no choice in the matter. They had to marry the person you chose for them. Even if you found a couple that was suited for each other, and even if this couple met one another's needs, and they lived a long happy life together their marriage could never be perfect. They would always feel the other person was forced into it and that it was not a marriage based on love. Perfection takes love and love takes a choice.
Yes, very strongly so he has a wonderful series on all 5 points of Calvinism (9 sermons in all) which actually saved me from my anti Lordship cheap grace views of salvation and God granted me repentance through them.
@@20july1944 1. What I desire is completely irrelevant to what is actually true about God. 2. I deserve hell, it's that simple, I will thank God forever that He changed me from where I was and made me born again, I don't deserve it. I struggle with the idea that God offered anyone salvation, it seems too spectacular to be true, that God died to save lost souls that He hated the actions of enough to righteously send them to eternal suffering and torment. Why would God offer salvation to anyone who has done 1 tiny thing against Him, He is the ruler of the universe and I have no answer for why He loved in such a way to save anyone, what I want from God is irrelevant when I deserve absolutely nothing except punishment. 3. If the position I am defending is true, then I will not question God's reasons, I may ask questions about them but not in the sense of putting God on the judgment seat and making moral arguments against something God says He does. My small human self has nothing to say back to God on any matter. What matters is what is true and I will love everything about the true God that created me to the extent that Gods pleasure allows me to do so.
Short answer: yes. This is painful to listen to 😭. He literally contradicts himself 😂. Unconditional election ➡️ go to hell if not elected ➡️ why ➡️ because you didn’t get pre-faith regeneration ➡️ why didn’t you get pre-faith regeneration ➡️ “idk…anyway, just go to hell because God likes it”➡️but I thought God was good ➡️ well he is but…not to you➡️uhhh what about this mountain of scripture that says otherwise ➡️ uhm yeah well idk….Calvinism go brrr. Not to mention the butchering of Romans 9😂, so so so cringe.
In reference to Paul’s analogy of the potter and the clay, to assume that the lump of clay is “fallen man” has to be read into the text. It is more likely that the clay is neutral until the potter decides to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor.
@@aletheia8054 I agree with you that Jacob was a type of a vessel of honor and that Esau was a vessel of dishonor. However, In context, Paul had already moved on from his reference to Rebecca in vs.10, to Moses in vs.15, and then to Pharaoh in vs. 17 well before he begins talking about mankind as the clay in vs.20 and then God as the Potter in vs. 21. At best your conclusion is speculation read into the text.
the image that God gave me is this, as far as predestination is concerned: Imagine if you will that God has a library, big enough to contain at least one book from the moment a person is born until they go home to be with him, which he writes before a person is actually born. this is his perfect plan of a person, the one that HE personally designed the "predestined plan" if you will. when you are born, he begins to document everything that happens in a play by play and writes a whole other book this contains every decision you make, whether you get saved or not, whether you do an action you were supposed to do, whether you get married or no, whether you have children or not whether the world deceives you with a trap placed by the devil. that's predestination in a nutshell
All are saved . Isaiah 65:25 confirm whet this old timer said years ago that he believed God to be so perfect that Satan is in heaven. Adam and Eve were told they would die and ?. Ya lived before as I read in Romans 3:23. and 5:13. All sin passed over or not taken into account . All had to live again. All who have ever lived are alive now in the judgment. Ezekiel 37 now is fulfilled and makes sense.
predestination is PREDETERMINED not foreknowledge or based on merit. God existed before time and the bible says before creation itself, so before time itself He determined you for himself. People want some claim to their salvation to show God "look what I did!". You were dead in trespasses and sins and who rose you to life? yourself when you accepted Christ or God who rose you by His own will?
Roman’s 9 is speaking of individuals and nations. It is also speaking of salvation. How so? Esau and Ishmael were not saved and they were used as the examples in Romans 9. We see Paul speak of salvation and wanting to trade places (accursed is implying it’s speaking of salvation): Romans 9:3 [3] For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. The children of God are the saved, as you must be a child of God for salvation: Romans 9:8 [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. We also see the start of Romans 10:1 Paul says his desire is for them to be saved. Who’s them? Well those individuals and children of the flesh he was just speaking about in Romans 9.
The Bible clearly talks about election and the sovereignty of God. It also talks about the responsibility of man and the fact that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all. Where men have fallen down is to restrict themselves to limited portions of scripture to the rejection of other portions. When we understand scripture from God's point of view and side as well as from man's perspective, then taken together they show the wonder and total security of God's salvation which is extended towards all in the gospel and applicable to those who believe. We who are born again of the Spirit of God are all Christians, saved by Grace through Faith. Those who have taken the title of Calvinists or Armenians are totally wrong and are failing to appreciate what a wonderful God we have whose love and grace is extended to all men. Men's narrow mindedness has caused division in the 'church' and has been used by Satan to cause bitterness and even hatred among brethren and sisters who should be loving one another.
@@Brenda-qo4ko can you ask the question again? I believe my statement was that calvinism states that our nature was determined by God. I find no biblical support for that. I deny total depravity
Piper is purposely ignoring the Calvinist teaching that mankind is born “unable” to seek God or to humble ourselves before God. God must choose us before we can choose Him. Calvinism destroys the good character and heart of God, and portrays God as evil and sadistic.
Middle knowledge makes God's decree subservient to some mysterious "card dealer." Middle knowledge is found nowhere in Scripture. The truth that God decrees all things not based on forelearning is found all over scripture.
weren't all creatures away from God, hating him, & happily wallowing in our own sin, as summarized by Romans 3?
Idk how God elects in his sovereign might, but I'm quite sure that, if it wasn't for God's Grace, we'd all have our tickets to Hell.
JoaoG R, You have a mentality of a Calvinist... But why do you think God created mankind? Is it not that God wants them to be with Him in heaven as God's Family? Therefore God will not fail in His desire and purpose for creation... God predestined all His true children to be saved.....
@@josephdurraz8574 all of humanity already belongs to God, why would he create humans purely to send them to hell? Why would he only elect a tiny group of people to become His children? Satan wants to break the relationship with us and God and keep as many away from God as possible, seems like he is winning
@@josephdurraz8574 What do you mean by "true children"? That brings us to "Why did God create people who are not his true child or those who'd reject him? Where's the discrepancy here? God created them with such a nature/personality?"
Differentiate a true child from humanity
@@MrRono19
Interesting Point and funny that you conclude with „Seems like he is winning“
Aren‘t you by saying your Statement against calvinism accepting the Point, that Satan is winning in leading the waste majority of People to hell which God Wants to Save but can’t, because Satan is deciving Every Human being and brought about the Fall of men? Now God ist trying to Save everyone equaly, but can’t get them out of the hands of Satan, why?->Because menkind Loves Satan More then God? Even if God makes Full effort to Save everyone, he can’t, because Satan his deciving Power inside the unredeemd sinner(Eph 2:1ff) is to strong in the life of menkind, that would meen that satans Power is stronger and mightyer then the drawing of God the Father to God the Son trough God the Holy Spirit…
So you are saying that the Devil has More Power then God and the only one‘s which are gonna be saved are the one’s which allow God to Save them.
Don‘t Know what Even to say about that…
I think i let everyone judge for themselfs.
God bless you in the Mighty Name of the LORD of lords, Jesus Christ 🙏🏽❤️
@Johnny Don Why does He create those that hate him?
To show that God chooses us, just look at Paul’s salvation.
Great statement 100 percent on point 👍👍
I don't see how this shows election. Paul could've walked away. Jesus didn't force Paul to believe.
@@KevC1111
Hi Elessar the fact God sought Paul out, Paul was in no way looking for Jesus but he was on the road to persecute, God seeks his elect out like the lost sheep parable. The fact that Paul did believe and did not walk away was a sign of election.
Paul's Free Will Choice was to persecute the church but God stepped in and changed Paul and saved Paul in an instant.
Blessings to you.
Ken
@@kent7525 Paul freely chose to to obey tho. God didn't force paul to obey. Paul was chosen only to preach the gospel. He wasn't chosen for salvation. Which is what calvinism teaches and wrongly so.
@@KevC1111
God chose any saved person before the foundation of the world, through God's Sovereign will before the creation of the world and therefore obviously independent of human influence and apart from any human Merit those who are saved have become eternally unified with Christ Jesus.
According to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself.
Good answer concerning Romans 9; no sinner deserves heaven, but they do deserve bell based on God's righteousness and justice. This is the reason Ephesians 2:8-9 says we're saved by grace through faith, not of works; it is a gift of God. If God didn't choose us, we would never choose Him.
Eric Smith no-one is saying we choose Him. What we are saying is that when the Gospel is proclaimed we can respond. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
@@gregjay9933 You are incorrect Biblically. The only way any sinner can respond is from God Himself. The Bible spells it out in the whole counsel of scripture. Can any man be saved? With man it is impossible (the Greek Word in this verse means unable) according to Jesus' own words in Matthew 19:26 and Mark 10:27. Who can come to Jesus? Only those who the Father have drawn, because no one can come unless He does it according to Jesus' own words in John 6:44. Why is man unable? Not because he doesn't know about God, he knows based on his conscience and creation, but he suppresses that truth in his unrighteousness according to Romans 1:18-23. He isn't able because he is a slave to his sin nature, which only Jesus can set them free according to Jesus' own words in John 8:34-36.
And the Bible talks about the depths of our sin nature. We don't understand, we are not righteous, we don't do anything good, we have wicked mouths, we have murderous hearts, we don't fear God (Romans 3:10-18), we are spiritually dead, we are children of wrath and disobedience by nature, we run after the world according to the wicked one (Ephesians 2:1-3), we have a carnal mind enmity (hostile) against God, therefore nothing in our sinful flesh pleases God (Romans 8:5-8), we don't understand spiritual things because we are natural (1 Corinthians 2:14), we have deceitful, desperately wicked hearts (Jeremiah 17:9), we hate God the Father, Christ, and Christians (according to Jesus' own words in John 15:18-23), and we are condemned already because we hate the light of Christ and love darkness because our deeds are evil (according to Jesus' own words in John 3:19). Even the verse you quoted in John 1:12 says man received and believed, but it doesn't tell you how he responds. You read free will into the text because man did it. Yet John 1:13 tells explains that we are born again by God, not our will at all. So the very next verse explains that the will of man has nothing to do with his trusting the Lord because you can't be born again (regenerated) by our "decision" or it would make it by our will. Verse 13 shows our belief begins with God. Why? Because God grants/gives repentance (Acts 5:31, 11:18 , and 2 Timothy 2:25) and Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
In conclusion, you can't take any verse that infers free will because it gives an imperative to repent, believe, or choose. Those verses certainly say that, but you don't override any verse that infers what we think it says over verses that completely declares who we are or what we can do. Giving verses with any inference over verses that plainly declare is bad interpretation. In doing this, we want to satisfy our own desire to insert free will into texts and make them completely override the attributes of God and the sinfulness of man plainly spelled out in other texts. When this happens, to satisfy the "free" will doctrine (that is never plainly declared in scripture), we will misinterpret verses about God's sovereignty such as Ephesians 1:4-5, Romans 9, and Isaiah 46:9-11 and make it say something it doesn't plainly say.
For example, so many folks here want to make Romans 9 about nations (Jacob and Esau), but it doesn't go into the context, content, and grammar of the whole of Romans 9. Romans 9:6 gives us the context clearly, not everyone of Israel is of Israel, which means not everyone born a Jew actually knows the Lord (they are unsaved). This is established by Paul's desire for them to be saved in Romans 9:1-5. Paul then explains exactly why they're not all saved, because of God's sovereign election, which he anticipates the two common objections in Romans 9:14-24, asking and answering them. But if you want man to have free will, you have to cut and paste all of Romans 9 and make it say what you want it to say in spots and destroy the whole flow of the chapter as well as the book. And to be honest, no Christian theologian or teacher or preacher (whether they are Calvinists or not) have interpreted this chapter in the awful way it is being interpreted now because of so many professed Christians disdain for the true sovereign will of God. So yes, man can choose God, but won't ever choose God unless God chooses him first.
@@gregjay9933 lol what does the next verse say??? verse 13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
@@teemu1381 lol what does the next verse MEAN??? verse 13 "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
V12 speaks of us becoming sons of God by receiving Him and V13 tells us what DOES NOT save us.
Not of blood - this refers to Jewish heritage. No-one is saved because they are born Jewish.
Not of the will of flesh - we cannot save ourselves.
Not of the will of man - this refers to manmade systems, ie, religion. Religion cannot save.
We can only be saved when God saves us and He saves all those who receive Him; or to put it another way, He saves all those who humbly repent in faith.
Hence, this passage does not support the view of God’s sovereignty in Salvation nor does it prove that the sinner is unable to respond to God.
@@gregjay9933 It means those who are born again are BORN OF GOD and those that are born of God it was not because of their own Will, which it lines up with Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." It's really not hard to understand.
Romans 9 is about Israel specifically and not salvation. If you read 8-11, this makes a lot more sense. If you read all of Romans you will see. Piper implies that this is automatically about salvation. Everyone deserves to be there, but the capacity of the cross is for all, and it should not be taught that it is only for some.
Certainly the capacity of the cross is for all, Calvinists don't deny that it had the ability to save all, the question is, did it? And the answer is no it only actually saves the believers no matter how you look at it. So now the question is did God want to save everyone and fail? Or did God save everyone He Pleased even though He certainly Had the ability to save more. Read ephesians 2:1-10 the action of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus accomplished the placing of all who would believe in heaven. Putting us in heaven isn't a sperate action then what happened on the cross.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB
Landon Smith well that’s a straw man in a sense because the question sets up God as failing and I certainly believe He fails because of people’s choices and because of certain evil actions. The Lord’s Prayer signifies the will of God that His Kingdom would be established on the Earth. This is still a process. We need to take hold of the power that we as Gods people have been entrusted with. We could phrase the question did God fail or does God hate everyone before they have even sinned cause that’s what election is and that’s not Biblical because John 3:16 and Gods will to save all must be held to.
@@user-gx4wi4cv2m The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Psalms 11:5 NASB
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
Psalms 5:4-5 NASB
There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, *A heart* that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, *A false witness who* utters lies, And *one who* spreads strife among brothers.
Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB
How do you reconcile these and other passages with your view of John 3:16?? I will be able to give an actual response after leaving work.
@@landonsmith348 I don't think that has to do with the issue at hand. Obviously the Lord hates wickedness because "none is righteous." Romans 3 tells us that no one is truly good in God's sight. The only reason God sent His Son for us is because of John 3:16! He is into reconciliation.
1 Timothy 2 explains this further: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time." He "wants all to be saved" and to come to "knowledge of the truth." He also gave Himself as a "ransom for ALL PEOPLE." This contradicts limited atonement strongly, very strongly.
Yes we all deserve punishment, but God has intervened on behalf of humanity. Not just the elect.
@@user-gx4wi4cv2m I am actually in the middle of writing very extensively on this passage if you would like to read it. The translation you are using seems to be doing some of the interpretation for you, this is something you must always be careful of when reading thought for thought translations of the Bible instead of word for word one's. One thing about the 1 Timothy passage that I would like to get your take on is this, the word for ransom here is actually different then the word for ransom everywhere else in the new testament. It is antilytron as aposed to just lytron in places like Mark 10:45 for example. The first part (anti) refers to substitution (lit. "In place of" or "in exchange of") and the second part (lytron) which is a ransom price. In this case "He gave Himself a ransom of all" (the word men isn't actually there) means christ himself was the substitute payment for whoever the "all" is. The question is, do you believe that Christ substitutionary atonement applies to every single person on the planet at the moment of His death?? "He gave Himself a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time" the second thing this implies is that the substitutionary ransom payment took place at the cross when Jesus gave Himself. So we have substitutionary atonement taking place for whoever the "all" is, at the moment of Jesus giving himself on the cross, not when I choose to believe. My sins were exchanged with christ righteousness at the cross. So you have two consistent options.
1. Jesus exchanged His righteous for every single man on the planet at the cross and become a universalist (which you probably do not want to do).
Or 2. Recognize Paul is talking generally about "all" here and speaking in categories, meaning people from every tribe, people, and nation. Recognizing that Christ did not substitute His righteousness for every man on the planet. This passage is perfectly consistent with limited atonement. Although this does not exclude Limited atonement arminianism, which would hold that Christ died decidingly for only the ones who would believe some day based on God's knowing they would choose Him by themselves. However. When reading this with Titus 2:11-14 we see that the same grace given to all men actually creates the obedience of faith to everyone it has appeared to. Meaning, again Paul is speaking generically in categories and not saying every single person existing.
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
Titus 2:11-14 NASB
And also 14 talks about the redeeming that took place accomplished the purifying people for His own possession. Again if that was the action of Jesus on the cross, then since this doesn't happen to everyone, then the action of His death and resurrection must be limited. I don't see any other way of consistently reading these passages without becoming a universalist.
As for John 3:16 I believe Jesus is speaking that the eternal life for all who believe, is showing love to the whole creation generally not to every individual person. And I get this from Romans 8 which talks about all of creation waiting for the day when the sons will be adopted.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:18-23 NASB
The adoption as sons is what all of God's entire creation is waiting for because that will be the day when the whole world (all of creation) will receive the gift of everyone who believed being adopted and the removal of all wicked people.
I honestly believe that, as Christians, we often make the mistake of wanting to have the answer to everything. I believe that the Bible supports the idea that there are many mysteries that, perhaps, we will never know in this life. In the end, God will reveal to us (through the Holy Spirit) whatever He desires. Job, for example, could not understand why he suffered so much, but God had a redemptive plan and a purpose. When the Lord answers Job, he does not tell him why it brought him affliction, he confronts him by asking him if he knows everything that God knows.
For me, this is one of the greatest mysteries in the Bible: why God decided to save some. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, serve in my local congregation, read the Bible and pray every day. However, I look at my life and I am no better than the rest of the people. I sin too. I pray to God that I may be saved, and if I am, in what way am I better than the one who is not? I am a sinner and fell short of the glory of God. Only by grace through faith in Jesus am I saved. Thanks to what Jesus Christ did on the cross for me. I didn't do absolutely anything.
I have fallen to the point where I just hold on to my faith and ask God to have mercy on us. Because it is also biblical that God is love, He is merciful and compassionate, so what He determines will be good. I think it is up to us to simply trust Him, hold on, and be faithful. And above all, love him with all our heart, with all our mind and with all our soul.
“GOD GOVERNS THE CHOICES OF ALL PEOPLE AND ALL PEOPLE ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CHOICES” not a contraindication, but it is a mystery. We don’t know how God does it, but He does it. Duet 29:29 it is a hidden work of the Lord.
One thing a Calvinist will not tell you is that the potter and clay reference is from Jeremiah 18. Read the passage and you’ll see how the passage says everything the opposite of the Calvinistic view. The potter and clay analogy is about Israel and nations in general which can either be formed into honorable vessels or vessels for destruction BASED ON THEIR OWN CHOICES of obedience or rebellion. So much for determinism and absolute sovereignty and that’s why they won’t mention the reference when preaching on this.
Read Romans 9 as if you are a Jew making the objections and he is referring to Israel being blinded (so how can you blame them part…. referring to the blind Jews) and the gentiles then being brought in to salvation (The “that’s not fair” part about Esau but instead God chooses to show them mercy). The Isaac and Esau references are referring to gentiles, notice it was the 2nd sons being used for God’s purposes not the first. Israel is also Pharaoh in the illustration whose heart God hardened just as he did Israel. Why? to bring about his purpose of salvation to gentiles.
It’s actually a passage that EXPANDS the offering of salvation to many, rather than a narrowing of it. It is a picture of God’s incredible mercy and patience vs a predetermined wrath in store for all those that lost the salvation lottery to show that God is both merciful and mighty. Like huh? I call it the 3D art passage. Remember that stuff when all of a sudden it came off the page and you’re like “oh wow, I see it!” That is this passage but you’re likely reading it through your theological bias.
I had such a horrible view of God sadly until I had a right view of this text which you’ll then notice is consistent with the following chapters in Romans. Calvinists by their own admission will say that their interpretation of chapter 9 seems contradictory with the following chapters about free will but it’s actually not since God understands how it all works together even when we don’t. 🙄
This is theology not philosophy. The bible is supposed to describe God's character and his instructions for us. Not so we can individually assert a wildly inaccurate conclusion on very little information. Single passages in the bible are not intended to be understood in a vacuum.
I’m so glad that person asked this question. The text says that God makes vessels for both Honor AND Dishonor. No one was a vessel of dishonor before God decreed that they would be. [Pro 16:4 NKJV] 4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. I believe that God’s Justus is based on ownership. [Rom 9:22 NKJV] 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION. The passage does not teach that the vessels of wrath prepared themselves to be so.
It seems your missing what Paul has already stated up to this point. The vessels of destruction are those who reject the gospel message and therefore God gives them over to a reprobate mind. Notice the passage clearly says that first he endured with much patience (9:22).
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Romans 1:21
Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 2:4-5
For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring-not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Romans 4:14-16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:16
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13
@@calvinpeterson9581 Hey C.P. thank you for your response. It was well thought out and biblically supported.
However, it seems to me that the vessels of destruction do indeed reject the gospel message, and God does turn them over to a reprobate mind. But this is because they are fulfilling what God has created them to do. Every passage you referenced is true of the reprobate: They don't honor God, their hearts are darkened, they are storing up wrath for themselves...Nevertheless Paul in Romans 9 is explaining with illustrations that this is what they were created to do. The wicked behave wickedly. The righteous behave righteously. Neither group created themselves. [Rom 9:21 NKJV] 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump TO MAKE one vessel for honor and (TO MAKE implied) another for dishonor? Some have commented that "the same lump" mentioned in this verse is a reference to fallen man, but there is no support for that interpretation in the text.
Jacob is loved by God before he was born and before he had performed and good deeds. Likewise, Esau is hated by God before he was born or had committed any evil deeds.
If one argues that God's hatred for Esau is based on foreseen evil, then in order to be consistent one would have to point to Jacob's foreseen goodness. (Which he didn't have)
The potter makes neutral clay either Honorable or Dishonorable for His own purposes. No one chooses to be born reprobate or elect. It is decided By God in eternity past. Before man ever dishonored God, before they began storing up wrath for themselves and even before the fall of man in Adam.
@@jazzmankey
That's a false belief and forcing the text to say something other than what it already states. The vessels of wrath, are those who turn from God's mercy as Romans 1-2 already established. Furthermore your interpretation is completely unfounded in Church history and not even the greatest heretics hold to such bizarre beliefs. It seems your forcing the text to say something other than what it establishes. For scripture says God ENDURED WITH GREAT PATIENCE toward the vessels of wrath. Scripture says his KINDNESS IS MEANT TO LEAD TO REPENTANCE. Scripture states that he has consigned ALL to disobedience in order to have mercy on ALL. His invitation of salvation is open for all people as Romans teaches and faith is a choice available for all people. Yet his mercy that is given, must be received by faith or one will perish in their sins.
“Those who cling to worthless idols turn away from God’s love for them.
Jonah 2:8
But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
Jeremiah 18:4-10
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
2 Timothy 2:20-21
@@calvinpeterson9581 God is not patiently waiting for the those He has prepared for destruction to come to him for salvation. God is putting up with the non-elect until all of His elect are saved:
Luke 15:4 -...and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
John 10:16-...other sheep I must bring.
Romans 8:30...predestined, called, justified, glorified
2Peter 3:9... longsuffering TOWARD US (God's elect) not willing that any should perish.
Rev. 13:8...written since the foundation of the world in the book of life.
@@jazzmankey
False, the passage says he has endured with patience and the scriptures say his kindness is meant to lead them to repentance (Romans 2:4-5, Romans 9:22, Romans 10:21).
It seems your missing the first part of Romans 8, for it says those who he foreknew he ALSO predestined. Notice one has to be foreknown to God in order to be amongst the predestined. Yet what does the scriptures says who God knows? Unbelievers? Absolutely not! Those who do not love him? Absolutely not!
Rather it says he knows those who love him, and predestined/planned a life in Christ for them!
Notice it's the Lamb's book of life! When does one belong to the Lamb? Hint it's found in Galatians 3, and Romans 4. For God foreknows all those who are in Christ through the obedience of the gospel.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who LOVE him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Romans 8:28-29
However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”- the things God has PREPARED for those who LOVE him-
1 Corinthians 2:9
Scripture doesn't speak of a mysterious elect that are an elusive group, rather it's made of of those who are in Christ through faith by baptism which gives one new birth.
The sheep Christ is talking about in John 10 are the Jews that were being abused by those in power and remained faithful to the Father. For the Father says all that are mine will be given to his Son. The scriptures speak in Ezekiel of sheep that were scattered throughout the hills, that will be gathered by the Shepherd David who is Christ. Jesus speaks of who these sheep are and identifies them as those who did not listen to the robbers (John 10:8). But yes they need to be gathered by the great Shepherd who is their God and Saviour.
Romans 8:28-30 New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Don Haddix, What are you trying to imply here? Is it related to the question?
@@josephdurraz8574 Foreknowledge who would love before predestination.
Did you know that word "foreknew" is only used one place elsewhere in Romans....In Romans 11 when he is talking about the remnant Israelites
@@dewuidew So what, it was used. He says God forenew those who would love him all the way to glorification in heaven. It does not matter Jew or Gentile, he foreknew them and predestined them.
You are trying the typical Catholic tactic of adding to the verses or changing meanings. It does not work.
@@donhaddix3770 You're reading into the text "Jew and Gentile" - nowhere does it say that. You *HAVE* to read it into the text to make it fit with what you believe....
If you can show me where it says "gentiles" within those verses or even that chapter, I'll consider re-thinking about it
JESUS CHRIST’S TEACHING ABOUT ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION
“Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.... You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.”
John 8:34, 44
This is what Jesus says:
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me drags HIM, and I will raise HIM up at the last day.”
John 6:44
Notice that every person that the Father drags or draws to Jesus Christ is saved and raised at the last day.
So not everybody is drawn to Jesus or all would be saved. But we know not everybody is saved. (Matthew 25:46)
If a person is not dragged or drawn to Jesus by the Father choosing them (for reasons known only to God - Ephesians 1:4-5, 11) they will never come to Jesus because we are all born slaves to sin and dead in sin. ( Ephesians 2:1-5)
Jesus says:
“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN come to me unless the Father has ENABLED them.”
John 6:63-65
If you do not believe what Jesus says above, then you are not one of Jesus’ sheep because Jesus says:
“You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
John 10:26-30
“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the LAST DAY!”
John 12:48
Notice that Jesus raises believers at the “last day” and also condemns unbelievers at the “last day.”
Therefore the events described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 5:4 take place at the “last day” and not at a heretical pre-tribulation rapture.
Jesus says:
“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me!”
John 10:27
I believe the bible teaches us about predestination starting before the foundation of the world. Go from the old testament and look at how many times God called a person or a nation to himself for the glory and service of God. It's all over the bible. But that's not what I want to say. This is, we are creaters growing in understanding and knowledge of an infinite creator. We aren't fully going to understand. Not never. But praise God that he has called us to such a great calling and a privilege for all in Christ to get to know him:
Thus says the Lord , “Let not the one who is wise and skillful boast in his insight; let not the one who is mighty and powerful boast in his strength; let not the one who is rich boast in his [temporal satisfactions and earthly] abundance; but let the one who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows Me [and acknowledges Me and honors Me as God and recognizes without any doubt], that I am the Lord who practices lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on the earth, for in these things I delight,” says the Lord .
JEREMIAH 9:23-24 AMP
I dont know how one can believe in predestination. Can you imagine yourself or anyone else planning on making kids and chossing before they are even born who will be loved by you and taken to your house and who will be dumped and despised by you. Very Jesus like? Jesus created people out of love and because He loves his kids. All of them and is not choosing one over another. God didnt die on the cross so some of his kids would have life and others not. Just knowing the nature of God is enough to comprehend that. Doubting in God's nature is the cause of all sins beginning from Adam and Eve.
@uriel mesanga haha but that doesn't mean He chooses for us. You have conflated predestination with God's foreknowledge.
True, back then there were gentiles that were welcome to become Israelites and get circumcised.
@@Barelo Do not be foolish. God can decide whenever He wants how He feels about someone, because He knows the beginning to the end. Your example is one on human terms, and it is a poor argument that falls apart because of the fact that, unlike God, we cannot see the beginning to the end. We are not omniscient, unlike Him, nor are we omnipresent, unlike Him. Even now, God is in the past as with the present as with the future, he has no limitations, unlike us, so YES! *HE* can choose to save whoever he wants and to damn whoever he wants, because he holds infinite knowledge, infinite wisdom, and infinite righteousness, as well as more infinites, but they are not *as* relevant to this argument as these three are, specifically.
Christoph de Warenne He can choose because he knows beginning and the end? So how does it make him to enable to choose?
God is not obliged to save any
However it's a marvel he saved
A few
Strive to enter by the strait gate
Bring forth fruits meet for repentance
It seems to me to be a question of perspective. God knows the beginning from the end. We don’t.
We are given a mystery. We have a choice. You choose to speak the gospel or keep it to yourselves. You speak what you believe. If you do not go and tell you don’t really believe.
Faith to know God’s purpose for you is to simply go and tell. Matt 28:17-20
Some still doubt.
More confused after this
How come?
IbeTali he never answered the question, just rambling around, that’s why am confused
@@ganrhod204 oh okay
Seemed like he didn't directly address the question, but the question was operating from a wrong premise, which he addressed. I guess maybe it could've been more clear if he drew that out more!
@@ganrhod204, Definitely Piper did not answer the question correctly... The question is pertaining to Romans 9:11-13... It is about Why do Calvinists say that in Romans 9, God predestined the elect UNCONDITIONALLY, While God predestined the Reprobates CONDITIONALLY... Piper answered the questions by picking his answers from other chapters not in Romans 9... Therefore he did not answer the question correctly...
Lol that’s Piper for you
Yep. They basis their belief on Augustine not Jesus.❤
They are basing their belief on the Bible really which DOES teach double predestination in this very chapter. Kind of funny how theologians and believers are trying to ignore it for centuries.
Who did augustine base his faith on tho
@@IbeTali if you do some research into it, you'll find agustine taught something Conpletely different until 412. When faced with the extreme teaching of pelagius, he went to an extreme opposite, rather then approaching him in a balanced way. It was shortly after this time he began to teach, contrary to all the early church, things like total inability and "non free free will." I can recommend some good resources if youd like. The idea is that his former gnostic beliefs and argument at this time led to what he taught. He began to use the same passages to justify this doctrine, interpreting the verses in much the same way they did. I would encourage you just to look into it. I was a calvinist, and I'm not a catholic nor arminian. I'm not advocating another man made tradition. Calvin was heavily influenced by agustine. He quotes him over 3000 times in the institutes. He said that agustine was so thoroughly within him he could create his statement of faith just from his writings. Calvin got the ideas from Augustine. Just look into it and it's really apparent.
@@nathanburgett1599 I'll gladly accept those resources! Please do.
Personally, I've honestly never looked into Augustine nor Calvin (only read some of his Isaiah commentary and found myself disagreeing on a lot). Rather, after reading Romans 9 I came to see His Word clearly says that it's not a matter of our choice that saves us, but of God's will. I was called a calvinist by the church I attended. It was meant in a derogatory way at the time, to discount the scripture.
So here's one Calvinist not caused by Calvin lol.
@@IbeTali yeah I understand that. Lots of people do end up like that. When you follow the train of thought though throughout Roman's it becomes clear the context is different then when you isolate the verses.
A couple good resources i can recommend if you wanna think through it. "The foundation of augustinian calvinism" dr Ken Wilson. Hes an Augustine scholar. For romans 9 the potters promise, dr Leighton flowers, does a good job looking at the historical context and following the train of thought, showing how the objector is a hardened jew objecting to the in grafting of the gentiles and not about freewill. There are lots of resources out there you could just read and test. A few other ones, what love is this? Dave hunt. Does God love all or some, ronnie Rodgers. Soteriology101 is also a good resource to discuss and think through the issues. I was a calvinist for years and I understand the reasoning. I didnt want to leave it when I did. There is just too much evidence and proper exegetical evaluation of the prooftexts, for me to stay a calvinist. The early church taught things completely contrary to calvinism for 300 years. That was the strongest evidence for me. Followed by evaluation of the prooftexts within their actual context and intent. I came to realise what I was doing was reading my own ideas over the text, by not paying attention to the whole context. It's a really long discussion to have, but if your interested in researching it for yourself those are a good place to start.
I don't call myself anything other than a christian but i know that God is infinite.He already knew who would reject Jesus before He even created earth, that is how He is able to call us. That is how our actions and free will are still relevant.God is able to give us a gift of salvation because He already knows the infinite amount of choices we could make provided He even gave us infinite paths to take that do not even exist and wont ever.I also know that any one of us could potentially be who finds salvation on the cross so we must treat each individual as though they can see Gods glory with a bold faith and prayer over them.
I am not even a Calvinist and this seems to be completely off the mark. Either we are capable of touching the perfection of a holy God as humans or we require the divine intervention of a savior, period.
that has nothing to do with calvinism vs arminianism
@@InitialPCOr Provisionism
Jacob and Esau do not mean individuals in context in Romans 9. Its a contrast between 2 types of people, those who believe and those who try to be justified by works. Read Malachi 1 and you see why God hates Esau. Read Obadiah 1 for more clarification. Romans 9 has a theme of this idea and Romans 10 gives us the salvation plan.
The way calvinists teach romans 9 makes no sense in context of chapters 9-11.
In context of Romans 9 Paul uses the example ofJacob and Esau as individuals, not as nations .Paul as an Apostle has the right under the influence of the Spirit, to change the context of the quote in Malachi,as is done in other quotes from the OT by the apostles.Eg when Israel in Malachi is "called my son" but applied to Jesus in Matthew.
@@neilgrobson58
He uses individuals to give examples of types of people. For example Galatians 3-4. Abraham is an individual, but he points to people of faith, etc.
Yes...the way reformed believers interpret Romans 9 makes perfect sense in it's context alone.People who interpret it any other way, like you, are usually either bringing their presuppositions to the text or they are applying other scriptures to it that have no business being applied.Malachi 1 is God's oracle to the nation of Israel.In that context He is comparing the individuals Israel (Jacob) and Esau to the nations of Israel and Edom.Same with Obadiah.But there is no reason in the text of Romans 9 to think that Paul is doing the same thing.
@@Brenda-qo4ko
Not bringing presuppositions, rather bringing in the immediate context. It took almost 400 years to come up with the "reformed" version of the text, and if one were to take their interpretation, it would rewrite how God deals with people throughout the whole Bible.
God does not deal with people in an arbitrary way, but rather on a conditional response. There are so many presuppositions by reformed thinkers, that are brought into the text. Yet if we take their interpretation, it makes no sense within the context. Even if Romans 9 was a stand alone passage, I could stick with my points.
Here is a simple thing one could do to help understand Romans 9 from a reformed view. Show other examples in scripture found from their understanding of Romans 9.
Furthermore if their interpretation is correct, than the only logical conclusion is that damnation is unconditional in the same way that election is unconditional. Here is the logic- Jacob is in heaven for nothing good or bad he has done. Esau is in hell for nothing good or bad that he has done. God merely decided to make them that way for his mysterious purposes. Yet scripture hundreds of times could not more explicitly contradict these claims.
@@Brenda-qo4ko
Notice the clear conclusion in Romans 9 by Paul.
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
Romans 9:30-33
Notice the contrast. The Jews were hardened and damned, because they tried to be justified by works of the law. The Gentiles were justified by faith. This is the clear meaning of Romans 9, and there is no need to rewrite the book of Romans to fit this interpretation.
The objector in Romans 9 is a jew who thinks their nationality and adherence to the law will be justified before God. Yet God is rebuking them and saying he chooses who he has mercy on (those who believe) and that he can mold them for his purposes so that they can be used as an example of bringing down pride (Pharaoh) and carnality (Esau). God can use those who reject the Messiah (romans 9:32) as he sees fit.
Calvinists, including John Piper think God’s choosing of Jacob over Esau is about Salvation and this major error has led to the contradiction discussed here. The first 3 or 4 chapters of Romans explains Salvation and Chap 9 deals with the nation Israel. God is saying that He loves Jacob and that His love for Esau is less. God’s choice of Jacob over Esau was to give Jacob’s descendants the privilege and honour of taking God’s Word into the world. Though Esau was the oldest brother, and as such, would normally receive the Blessing, God decided, even before they were born, that the Blessing would go to Jacob. Many Jews may question God’s choice of Jacob, so Paul says, “who are you, O man, who answers back to God?”
IT IS A CHOICE OF SERVICE, NOT A CHOICE OF SALVATION.
Piper states, “God condemns in the end on the basis of unbelief and sin because He is just.”
How can God be just if He condemns on the basis of unbelief when in fact He, before the foundation of the world, chose some to be non-elect and thus unable to believe?
In other words, how can God be considered just in condemning a non-elect person for unbelief when that non-elect person is unable to believe?
The Bible says that God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. The Bible also says that the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men and God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent.
Calvinists, including John Piper have completely misinterpreted Rom 9
The themes of the OT (tanakh) are of covenant, freedom from bondage, and fleeing from idolatry (and obedience to other laws in torah) unlike the NT where the theme is salvation through Jesus Christ. The "reward" so to speak in the OT from fulfilling your choseness is a human (covenantal)flourishing. Something akin to the corresponding results of respecting/obeying the natural law to all people today.
@xwriter100 only a Calvinist would say it is a poor argument. If you believe your understanding is correct then answer the question - how can God be considered just in condemning a non-elect person for unbelief when that non-elect person is unable to believe?
My argument is consistent with God’s character, your view that God decides who will believe and who won’t believe is an attack on God’s character.
Of course Jacob and Esau are named as individuals in other parts of Scripture but in Rom 9 the context is nations - are you saying God actually hates the individual, Esau?
@@mitchellscott1843 Not sure where you are going with your comments but if you are a Calvinist then answer the question I posed - how can God be considered just in condemning a non-elect person for unbelief when that non-elect person is unable to believe?
Sorry this should have been a regular post. Your post just reminded me that themes of the OT do not reflect a Calvinistic pov, based both on my reading and my takeway from various Jewish scholars/rabbis.
Ps: No I'm not a Calvinist
@@gregjay9933
@@mitchellscott1843 Glad you are not a Calvy. Calvinism is a heresy because it is an attack on God's character.
Amen!
+Cloudy Windy D..I read the bible cover to cover..once. In Matthew 6:33..Jesus said to Seek HIM and HIS Righteousness FIRST. That is what I do. He Helped me read the bible the second time and He showed me the verses Relevant for me. Those are the ones I read. Every word in the bible is Not relevant for me. I will Stay with Jesus..but thank you for your opinion.
The questioner is spot on. There is an inherent contradiction in the Calvinist view on election. At least for those Calvinists who do not hold to double predestination. The explanation in the audio doesn't even try to resolve the inconsistency!
You don't know how God makes it so that sinners will sin, so that they will be deserve hell? That sounds awfully close to accusing God of wrongdoing, in saying God determines people to sin, so that he can punish them for choices he wanted them to make. That just doesn't sound like the God of the Bible to me. Look at Ezekiel 18:23 and then again at the end of that chapter. God doesn't take pleasure in the death of anyone. That's why he's pleading with his people to repent of their evil ways, so that they can live and not die. If God takes no pleasure in the death of one who dies, then he certainly doesn't desire people to sin so that he can send them to Hell. That simply is not his character as shown in the scripture. God desires all people to repent and believe, so as to be saved.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC You believe in God and trust that He saved you because Jesus died on the cross for your sins, no? You believed and that is why God saves you. The Bible says that whoever believes is not condemned, will not be put to shame, and whoever comes to Jesus will by no means be turned away.
THE SPIRIT OF GOD YEHOVAH
The Spirit of God Yehovah, the true, holy and good Spirit is the spirit of the law of God Yehovah and the spirit of the prophets of God Yehovah and the spirit of the sons, the called, the chosen, the commanded, the mashiach's (anointeds), the prophets, priests, princes, pastors, servants, messengers and people of God Yehovah.. The spirit of God Yehovah is the spirit of the word, law, commandments, ordinances of God Yehovah, the spirit of Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Might (Power) and the Fear of God Yehovah, the spirit of truth, holiness and goodness, the spirit of Supplication and Grace, the spirit of prophecies, visions and dreams and the spirit of the testimony of God Yehovah
Whoever is an antillaw
is contrary to the prophets of God Yehovah the Lawgiver and
is contrary to the spirit of God Yehovah the Lawgiver and
is contrary to God Yehovahi the Lawgiver and
is contrary to the holy, sanctified, chosen, called, commanded, anointed (mashiach) people of God Yehovah the Lawgiver that are keepers of his holy law as an antimashiach antiyehovah, anticovenant antilaws.
He is ungodly and not under the influence of the true, holy and good spirit of God Yehovah but a different false, defiled and evil spirit.
Nehemiah 9:6-7,13-14,20,26-30 ASV
THOU ART JEHOVAH, EVEN THOU ALONE; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
[7] THOU ART JEHOVAH THE GOD, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham,
[13] THOU
camest down also upon mount Sinai, and
spakest with them from heaven, and
GAVEST THEM
RIGHT ORDINANCES and
TRUE LAWS,
GOOD STATUTES AND COMMANDMENTS, [14] and
madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and
COMMANDEDST THEM
COMMANDMENTS, and
STATUTES, and
A LAW,
BY MOSES THY SERVANT,
[20] THOU GAVEST ALSO THY GOOD SPIRIT TO INSTRUCT THEM, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. [26] Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their back, and slew
THY PROPHETS
THAT TESTIFIED AGAINST THEM
TO TURN THEM AGAIN UNTO THEE,
and they wrought great provocations. [27] Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their adversaries, who distressed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee,
thou heardest from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies
THOU GAVEST THEM SAVIOURS WHO SAVED THEM out of the hand of their adversaries. [28] But after they had rest, they did evil again before thee; therefore leftest thou them in the hand of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them: yet when they returned, and cried unto thee, thou heardest from heaven; and many times didst thou deliver them according to thy mercies, [29] and
TESTIFIEDST AGAINST THEM,
THAT THOU MIGHTEST BRING THEM AGAIN UNTO THY LAW.
Yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto thy commandments, but sinned against thine ordinances (which if a man do, he shall live in them), and withdrew the shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear. [30] Yet many years didst
THOU
bear with them, and
TESTIFIEDST AGAINST THEM
BY THY SPIRIT
THROUGH THY PROPHETS:
yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
Zechariah 7:12 ASV
Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear
THE LAW, AND THE WORDS
WHICH JEHOVAH OF HOSTS HAD SENT
BY HIS SPIRIT
BY THE FORMER PROPHETS:
therefore there came great wrath from Jehovah of hosts.
Isaiah 63:10 ASV
But THEY REBELLED, AND GRIEVED HIS HOLY SPIRIT:
therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
Proverbs 29:27 ASV
An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous;
And
he that is upright in the way is an abomination to the wicked.
Isaiah 11:2 ASV
And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
Joel 2:28 ASV
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Zechariah 12:10 ASV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
Micah 3:8 ASV
But as for me, I am full of power by the Spirit of Jehovah, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.
It is contradiction all the time. Saying that God control every choice is to make Him responsible for that choice. He choices. Therefore the calvinists made God responsible. And they need to use the expression "We don't know how". It's because in fact it contradicts the logical of simple and pure Scriptures.
Romans 9 is Paul using the nation of Israel's own history to show why the nation is rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.
In Romans 9:1-5 we see Paul’s grief over the unbelief of his people. In verse 9:3, he compares his kinsmen, the nation of Israel, to idolators who deserve death by the sword. This is the first Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Romans 9:6, Paul distinguishes between the nation of Israel and Spiritual Israel. Then in Romans 9:7-9 he tells us that this has not ruined God’s plan, because God chooses His people through faith in Christ, the Seed of Abraham, not according to natural lineage. He illustrated this by comparing unbelieving Israel to Ishmael, and the Church to Isaac. This is the second Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Paul did this in Galatians 4:21-31 as well. So, national Israel’s unbelief did not hinder God’s promises to Israel because God’s people, Israel, are reckoned by the Spirit and not by the flesh. In verse 9 he brings in Genesis 18:10 and 14 because in this passage, Sarah is doubting God's promise like the nation of Israel doubts Messiah and Paul's message. This is the third Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Then in Romans 9:10-13 Paul compares the nation of Israel to Esau who sold his birthright for some porridge, and the Church to Jacob who became the greater of two nations. The Older, Nation of Israel, has served the Younger, the Church, by bringing forth Messiah to bless all families of the earth (Genesis 12:2-3) and by preserving the oracles of God. This is the fourth Israelite story Paul flips on its head. Paul emphasized in verses 10-13 that we are members of Spiritual Israel by the grace of God through faith in Christ, not by the works of the Law of Moses.
In Romans 9:14-18 he reiterates that becoming members of God’s people is by the sheer mercy of God alone, a mercy that is received through the easy yoke of faith, not the striving labor of the Law. Pharoah was hardened by God like He is hardening Israel (Romans 11:7). This is the fifth Israelite story Paul flips on its head.
Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” Israel has resisted God's will repeatedly. Stephen says so in Acts 7:51. That's why God uses Potter/Clay in Jeremiah 18 and Isaiah. The imperfect Clay spoils in the perfect Potter's hand. Potter/Clay solves the tension between God's sovereignty and man's free will.
Romans 9:20-21 connects to Jeremiah 18 by the Potter and the Clay Analogy. By alluding to this passage in Jeremiah 18, Paul is telling the unbelieving nation of Israel, whom he is hypothetically debating with, that God has justly hardened Israel and used their sin to glorify His name just like He did with Pharaoh. Israel is guilty for their rebellion and unbelief, and also for their persecution of God's elect people, the Body of Christ. The fact that God's plan is not harmed by them does nothing to lessen their guilt.
In Romans 9:22-24 he points out that the unbelieving Jews, who make up the large part of the nation of Israel at that time, have been formed into vessels of wrath. And the remnant of Jewish believers along with the Gentle believers are vessels of mercy. This second group makes up the Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 9:22b is often mistranslated. There's a free online Harvard Theological Review article showing this issue, "Vessels of Wrath and God’s Pathos: Potter/Clay Imagery in Rom 9:20-23"
Paul proves His point by referencing prophecies in 9:25-29. Unfortunately, many Calvinist exegesis stop at verse 24 because the beloved doctrine of Unconditional Election is no longer inferable by Paul's quoting of the Old Testament. Paul brings his whole argument into focus in 9:30-10:4. The Church obtains righteousness by faith, but the nation of Israel thought righteousness was by lineage and following works of the Law of Moses.
We need to stop talking about God's love and his hatred / rejection in terms of conditional or unconditional when the Bible reveals that God is sovereign, meaning he is purposeful in using his omniscience, omnipotence, and total authority toward specific goals in history. Since God is sovereign, nothing is unconditional and everything depends on the decisions he has made in eternity past about how everything would play out. If God loves you and saves you, that is based on the condition that he determined before creation to give your soul to Jesus Christ to be redeemed so that you could enjoy his love and worship him forever, and if God hates you and rejects you, it is based on the condition that he predetermined to leave your soul captive to Satan through the spiritual death of your sin nature that you inherited from Adam, thus ensuring that you will continue on in hostility and rebellion against him and refuse to repent and surrender to Jesus in faith and ultimately end up in Hell. These decisions were made by God and not based on us or anything that we would do, but based solely on what God has willed which cannot be thwarted.
Therefore, it is not inconsistent to affirm with the Bible that while none of the elect deserve to be loved unto salvation and go to Heaven, ALL of the nonelect deserve to be rejected and go to Hell, because just like our being favored by God precedes what we do, the nonelect being hated by God precedes what they do, yet they deserve it not just because of their sin but because God has a right to do whatever he wills with what he made and if he decides to reject you then you deserve it because he is sovereign and he decides what is right.
At the same time, no one who is rejected by God and goes to Hell is going there ONLY because of God's choice but also because of their own sin and unrepentance. And contrary to what Piper said, we DO KNOW, how God sees to it that the nonelect become guilty of condemnation. In providence, God cursed all of Adam's descendants with a sin nature which binds everyone to Satan through the dominating desires of the flesh, and unless God intervenes to grant new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit and repentance and faith, we will remain in a state of blindness, hostility, and unrepentance, and by our actions deserve doubly to perish. This is, again, conditional upon whether or not God has chosen in eternity past to save someone or not, and if he hasn't chosen to do so he is not wrong because as our Sovereign creator he has the right to save some and reject others, and our decisions throughout history affirm rather than determine our destiny.
We are told why God decided to elect some and not others, but we are not told what he based his election and rejection on, and we don't need to know because what matters is that God is sovereign, just, and gracious, and it is for the purpose of sharing his love with his people to the maximal degree that he governs all things. All of these points are covered in Romans 9 and they are consistent.
I have to say that you have layed down the law and lifted up Christ in this sermon on the infallible and faithful nature of God. He is the unconditional condition, the one upon whom all things rely and abide by. Amen
It in no way say God loved Jacob and Hated Esau BEFORE they were born
It states God chose before they were born and what was chosen? Genesis 25:21-23
There was something about this birth that greatly distressed her But God said“Two nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other,
This is actually the first clue we are not talking about individuel salvation but a nation for the purposes of 1 displaying Gods power and strength, Keeping of God's law for the world, and the vessel to bring about his seed,
Paul is saying Gods election in this regard was chosen in Jacob before they were born
But to make the point that he is not talking about in their life times he stated the older shall serve the younger so you understand, because at no point did Esau serve Jacob in their life time, But Jacob returned to him humbled
Next “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” In which he is quoting Malachi 1
And what is going on here in Malachi is it that Esau was hated in the womb? NO not even close there was judgment on Esau or Edom as it was known for what they did to Israel as recorded in Obadiah 1:10-15
“For violence against your brother Jacob,
Shame shall cover you,
And you shall be cut off forever.
And what is being said about Jacob I loved? but that Jacob rejected Gods love and profaned the sacrifice and for this reason Gods judgment is going to come upon them IF they do not repent, But as usual Gods Open arms are always available IF they humble themselves
Remember the whole purpose of Romans 9 is to show Why even though Israel failed this does not Mean Gods Promises failed
Pr. John is explaining this text based on Calvinism's point of view not on the context of the book of Romans.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Not "all" but every single person who comes into the world.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction
What about quoting like..i dunno...romans 9?
2 Peter 2:1. We don’t know who bought them. Was it God or Jesus? We don’t know that answer.
Romans 9 is about Salvation and how God elects vs going to a passage taking about who Jesus is. Jesus is the light to every man and the Lord of Everyman but does every man believe? No. Is every man saved? No. John is explaining that Jesus is God and he is not talking about
salvation.
Roger
@@davidkampisch5878 "What then, the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, that is, a righteousness by faith, but Israel which pursued a law of righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law? Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as it were by works." Thats in Romans 9 towards the end of the chapter. Quoted from memory, since I don't have my Bible at the moment.
I think we need more of the lords light on Romans 9.
God did not create men for perdition and men for eternal life Ezekiel 18:23 NASBS
Matthew 25:41 NASBS
[41] "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been PREPARED FOR the devil and his angels; - not for man
[23] Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than
that he should turn from his ways and live?
Titus 2:11 NASBS
[11] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to ALL men,
1 Timothy 2:4 NASBS
[4] who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
John 12:32 NASBS
[32] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Why does the Bible say in so many places that Jesus died so that everyone would have a chance at everlasting life if he only died for the elect? What would be the purpose of all of us being here and going through all of this, and being emotionally tied to each other, if we don’t have free will?
We are predestined by God to be saved through Jesus alone through 'adoption' by Jesus unto God.
@@lettherebedots 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Ezk 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezk 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezk 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Ezk 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Ezk 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Ezk 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
praise Jesus...may everyone turn from this heresy that God predestines some to eternal damnation and predestined some to salvation. Blatant contradiction. No mystery sir
Blatant lack of logic on your part though
Your opinion is irrelevant to GOD's sovereignty.
God didn't predestine us to sin leading to the punishment of spiritual and physical death.Adam did that all on his own and consequently all of us inherited a sin nature rebellious to God leading to us all deserving death.
@@davidkampisch5878 law of non contradiction... blatant violation in calvinism
@@philiptecson6354 and if you are a calvinist.... so is your desires
I love John Piper!! That being said, this is not a perplexing or doctrine-breaking question (@7:50) as it's made out to be here (i.e. If God predestines a person to perdition, how does God see to it that the person truly DESERVES to be punished eternally?). Well, as I see it, God has eternally decided that a person will be punished in Hell (reprobation), then He has not that person to have "" (Matt. 13:9 If anyone has ears to hear let him hear); He has not them (Acts 11:18 God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life); When they are shown the testimony of God through hearing the Gospel, they will thus REJECT the Son of God (a fatal sin in itself); thus they will spend their lives in darkness, servants of the devil, they will "not only practice those things that are worth of death, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them (Rom. 1:32). Now will we ask, what can God do to ensure that this person is deserving of his destiny?? Huh????. Mind you, this person may be a model citizen, a "good person" in today's parlance, a good parent, etc., and we take no pleasure in their destiny. We pray for every person within our sphere to not be That Person. This is why I don't take the label "Calvinist", though have believed in divine unconditional election for 46 of my 47 years as a Christian. I don't find the Five Points tremendously helpful, and don't get me started about debates such as Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. Sorry for the rant, if you read this far, I hope it helped!
The comment system made a mess of this, the text engine allowed me to add bold and underlining, then deleted these parts when I saved it. Live & learn.
If God pre-destined us then we ain’t got free will, which is one of the foundational things about God’s grace
Or else what’s the point of faith - genuine faith? Calvinism doesn’t stack up to me BUT it’s not the end of the world and I’ll see y’all in heaven anyway so keep following God the best way you can 👍
He never answered the question.
Why would damnation be conditional, if election is unconditional?
Doesn't the verse that is referenced refer to both Jacob and Esau?
If Jacob is being elected unconditionally, not based on anything good or bad?
Then why is Esau being condemned upon something bad (sin)?
That is not being consistent with the text.
Hmmm okay, I might understand, although I found your questions confusing at first. I think maybe your questions come from a premise that might be the actual difference between your views and John Piper's.
John's premise: God is just
Premise 2: every person sins
Conclusion: every person is condemned (or, "hated" by God)
So it makes sense that every person, if they are "earning" anything, it is God's wrath. See John 3:36, which says that the wrath of God abides on him who does not believe. Belief is the difference, because their faith is what saves them. But do they choose to believe? No, God chooses to give faith to those He chose (Ephesians 2:8-9). There is much in scripture about this, but read John 6 and write down what God does and what people do and consider what is earned and what is not earned.
If I'm reading right, your premises are as follows:
Premise 1: God is just
Premise 2: People do good and bad things
Conclusion: some are condemned, some aren't
Romans 3 demonstrates all deserve God's wrath, Romans 1 declares God's wrath over all mankind. None will escape His judgment.
Please look over those bible passages and let me know what you think!
@@IbeTali
I agree with everything your saying except that faith is not a choice. Yes everyone deserves condemnation and every person is a sinner.
But where from Romans 9:11 does Piper see that God has man's sin in view?
If Jacob is eternally loved by God and Esau is eternally damned by God and it is according to nothing the twins have done good (including faith) and bad (including sin) than how is he damning people for sin?
Do you get where I'm coming from?
I reject unconditional election and what I believe to be leftover as unconditional reprobation. The theme I believe Paul is showing with the analogy of Jacob and Esau is one of faith vs. works. In no way does God view ones good works (the law) or anything good or bad to try to live up to him. Rather as Paul establishes he views faith which he contrasts with works and clearly teaches in not of works. That is why his conclusion at the end of the chapter says they pursued it not by faith. And he goes on to establish in Romans 10 on how one is saved by faith in Christ. Which according to the passage is a choice.
Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Romans 9:32
But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above ) or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:6-9
Notice where these passages are taken from in the OT.
“For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Deuteronomy 30:11-19
@@calvinpeterson9581 Thank you for your response!! I rejoice that you recognize faith as a gift and perceive God's justice which no man can stand before.
Also, I think you're correct in saying God's hatred of Esau is not judgment.
However, if you'll kindly listen to the words of a stranger, yet I think one who has the Spirit of God ;), I believe the text reads that God's hatred results in His lack of intervention, while His love results in His act of intervention.
After all, there is not a passage there found which describes God calling Esau to eternal damnation, is there? Did Paul ever say God sets up people to sin so that they will not turn to Him?
No, God cannot be tempted nor does He tempt. Rather, God does NOT help some, but helps others. "I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion," He says. He does not say "And I will have stumbling blocks on whom I will have stumbling blocks," no, God is not the author of evil, but of good.
So those who stumble over Christ are those who God does not help, but those who see and embrace Christ are those God does.
What do you think of this definition of God's hatred? Is there anything in the text of Romans 9 that I may have overlooked indicating God's hatred as actively inducing people to rebel against Him?
@@IbeTali
I agree God is definitely not causing people to rebel against him by his power and as you pointed out it is rather that God is giving them over to their wickedness, because they are already that way.
Rather what I'm pointing out is where does Piper/Calvinists get the idea that God is damning Esau for his sin. Here is an example. God is a coach and he decides to choose certain people on his team. This choice is completely up to him and no one can know why. Also to the ones that aren't chosen for the team he tells them that it's not anything good or bad for not being chosen, it's just based upon his Sovereign choice. (Piper's view, and examples always fall apart).
Now what I'm saying is the coach desires for all to be on the team and he calls everyone to the team. But his criteria happens to not be how good one is at the sport (law and works), but rather about those who's hearts love the coach (faith and repentance). Now to the ones who are good at the Sport (objector in Romans 9) this seems unfair. Then why did God make me this way? Then Paul's conclusion (they pursued it by the law and not by faith) makes more sense. Also how he goes onto Romans 10 to establish between works and faith. God has mercy on who he has mercy and according to Romans 10 it is whoever calls upon the name of the Lord. It is not about natural ability, heritage, special privileges or being amongst his people. Rather it is based upon knowing him and loving him.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27
@@calvinpeterson9581 You know, your explanation is really wonderful. I find that very clarifying and helpful. I would never have expected to be edified by a conversation over RUclips comments, haha!
But I'll have to go back and listen again to this Ask Pastor John again; I remember in an earlier sermon, he was saying the same thing as you, that Jacob couldn't have earned God's love because he hadn't done good or evil.
But isn't Esau still under original sin? And Jacob too? Doesn't that earn God's disfavor?
And what did you mean earlier by "faith is a choice?"
Deuteronomy isn't a get out clause!
I'm a Calvinist but this just created a little doubt in my mind by suggesting that God is intentionally confusing us 😐
Romans 9:18 "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
What does it mean that he hardens who he hardens? This is an issue of trusting in God's judgment.
@@jacksobrooks He hardens who He hardens but according to Calvinism the unelect are born hardened, so who is God hardening here? I would say those who freely choose to reject Him. This would be consistent with the beginning of Romans
@@MrRono19 Paul writes to believes saying that they were formerly at emnity with God. We are all hardened and need to be softened. Dead and needing to be made alive. It is by the power of God that we are called.
@@MrRono19 Calvinist don't believe that people are born hardened by God.Anyone who says that is misrepresenting what we believe according to scripture.Scripture tells us that we inherited our sin nature through Adam's willful disobedience.Consequently that sin nature makes it impossible for people to not sin.This rebelliousness towards God and His laws makes us unable to choose for God unless God intervenes by His grace and regenerates us.In the Bible God only is said to harden people's hearts who were already inclined to be ungodly.
It’s not click bait… I’m a current Calvinist…
If you would like the short Consistent Calvinist answer to the “mystery” of Gods Unconditional Election click here…
ruclips.net/video/57zJjUjbbso/видео.html
If you would like the deeper, more detailed, version click here…
ruclips.net/video/GOgqSTsYySo/видео.html
It's because the best apology
Is changed behavior!
This is Jacob, the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face. Selah
Psalms 24:6
Who is Jacob according to this verse?
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Romans 9:11
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:5
but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Romans 9:31-32
Could Paul's conclusion give light to the verse that Calvinists try to prove is unconditional election?
Could it be Paul in verse 11 is talking about the law when he is saying good and bad and not referring to faith?
It seems his conclusion at the end of chapter 9 is clear, Israel is not saved because they did not pursue God through faith, but rather by works.
Interesting take. I’ve wondered about some of that, never heard good or bad pointing to an argument about not needling by faith. I think the issue at the end of the day is that your interpretation still assumes that sinful man can on his volition seek after Christ, which biblically is not possible. I’m preaching through John right now and mans Unwillingness to come to Christ is Everywhere. Jesus came in to the world and the world did not know him. He came to His own and His own did not receive Him John 1:10-11 I believe.
He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were [i]born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
It is a threefold negation of all of mans options. Born “not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man.” It literally says it’s nothing you plans, choose, or will. So it must be God hence, “but of God.”
Even after the famous John3:16 Jesus gives a “verdict” and says that the reason people don’t come to him is because their deeds are evil. That is everyone.
With Nicodemus he was something has to happen to you “be born again.” And he uses an analogy whose sole purpose is to use an example where the person being born was the passive agent.
If we weren’t dead in sins, lovers of darkness, constantly rejecting Jesus. Sure, we would come to him. But we love darkness rather than light.
Just some food for thought
@@TheFrost2003
I agree that men are wicked and do not seek God, until God seeks man first.
Yet from scripture it seems he seeks after all men (John 12:32, Luke 5:32, acts 17:30). And those who seek him in return he will save (Isaiah 55:6-7).
That men must be born again in order to see the kingdom of heaven. Yet being born again is synonymous with given eternal life and he only gives eternal life to those who believe (John 3:15).
Man has the ability to believe by the Spirit of God, but not the ability to save themselves. Romans 10 teaches that all men have the ability to believe. Yet this power of being born of God is given freely by God's grace to all who believe (John 1:12-13).
@@calvinpeterson9581 Thanks for your interpretation. I believe that scripture teaches that those who come will be saved, and at the same time, no one can come unless they are drawn. Prevenient grace is a great philosophy but is yet not taught in scripture. At the end of the day, we have to deal with what Jesus accomplished on the cross. If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world specifically, no one would be in hell. Yet, we know all are not saved and that what he accomplished was accomplished with the elect in mind.
@@robertharnden5472
I agree all who come will be saved and no one can come to him unless they are drawn.
As far as scripture teaches if Christ died for everyone than no one would go to hell. The cross of Christ does save, but his word teaches that it only saves those who trust in him. Until one believes in Christ they are under his wrath (John 3:36). They are separated from Christ (Ephesians 2:12).
One must be in Union with Christ in order to receive the benefits of the cross. Yet one is in Union with Christ only through faith (Ephesians 1:13, Hebrews 11:6).
The payment that Christ paid for only goes into the account of all who confess him as Lord and follow him. Yet the riches of God in Christ is enough for all people. That is why scripture teaches to preach the gospel (that Christ died for them) to everyone. The proclamation of the gospel is that Christ died for you according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:3). Yet one must receive the gospel and continue in faith (1 Cor. 15:1-3).
It wasn't until I got a better handle of original sin, and how Adam's sin and God's subsequent punishment for sin (which is death) was imputed to all mankind, that I understood that before we are even born, in God's eyes, we are guilty and deserve death.And of course that's related to the sin nature of mankind.So God is just in punishing the guilty (of which we all fall into that category) and is just by showing mercy on those he chooses to show mercy (His elect who He calls by His grace and regenerates) according to His good purposes.The only unjust thing God could do is to not punish any of us who are all guilty and deserve punishment.
This answer really doesn't hold up. If God's love for Jacob (before any works) was unconditional, then a consistent interpretation would mean that his hatred for Esau (before any works) would also be unconditional. That is unless the Calvinistic interpretation is off track from what Paul is saying. To be clear, Paul was not quoting what God said before they were born... he was quoting what God said to Malachi after Edom had persecuted Israel. The love and hate for Jacob and Esau was the same concept of love and hate seen in Jacob's wives - Rachel and Leah. He loved Rachel more than Leah. It was the same "hate" that Jesus commanded when he said that if we did not hate our families then we could not be His disciple. It doesn't mean hatred, but rather "love less." Jacob was blessed with the national election and Esau was not. However, Paul is contrasting national election from the election to salvation... that's why he's saying that not all Jews were saved and yet Gentiles were saved.
This should bring out some interesting comments - mainly from the non-Calvinists :D
Is everyone born already either elect or not?
I think only God knows the answer to that one.
@@HearGodsWord I agree only God knows, but I'm curious what you think, especially if you're a Calvinist.
@@20july1944 no response.... obviously. That is because Calvinists don't think for themselves. They are told how to think by Calvinist theologians. Kinda like Muslims
@@MrRono19 Not sure i would call my self a calvinist but agree with almost all their theology even tho I always used to believe arminian view wich makes no sense sense to me now
If you are looking for a view that actually IS consistent, look up Molinsm. William L Craig gives a good explanation
Molinism is a philosophical construct that attempts to help maintain a synergistic soteriology but has no solid basis in scripture.So for that reason I reject it.
@@Brenda-qo4ko the trinity is also a philosophical concept used to explain God's relationship with Himself. On tht bases do you also reject the Trinity? God gave us minds to use, to seek to understand Him. Nothing in Molinism contradicts scripture and if applied to things in matters where God's sovereignty and man's free will seem to contradict, it gives a reasonable explanation. It helps us understand and interpret scripture in a consistent way that gives all the glory to God. Don't understand why you simply reject it for the reason you give. There is scripture to support it as well as the reasons I gave.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC sasasame goes for Molinism.
God is sovereign and chooses his children but he doesnt predestinate our choices in life. Yes he makes us spiritually alive but doesn't ordain whether I obey the gospel or not. If an elect person commits adultery that is not ordained by God, God did not order that, I have the will to walk in God's spirit or not. God does choose the rise and fall of nations and people have fulfilled prophecy (Judas Iscariot) but small matters like me going to church or staying in bed or drinking and driving or any kind of sin I commit or refrain from is yours and my will.
Yes he did predestinate all that. that’s what the verse says.
I love Piper, but he’s wrong. It’s not complicated. The point of Romans 9 is not about the severity of God’s freedom to save and damn who He chooses. The point is to show Israel that God is free to be merciful to whoever He wishes.
And that they’re wrong for pursuing the covenant promises by works of the law, rather than by faith. Ironically, he’s saying, they’re playing the role of Esau, instead of Jacob. It’s a humbling passage for us all, Jews and Gentiles alike.
Yes, you are. Romans 9 isn't about some divine lotto. Well, if you scrap the greater context of Romans, I guess you can make it seem that way.
But who would do that?
it is about the election of Israel.
It's senseless to debate with Calvinists over Romans 9. They evince a strawman argument EVERY TIME.
What do you mean? What's the strawman argument?
@@IbeTali That Calvinism is even a thing. Last time I checked, you are Christian, or you are engaging in fruitless argument.
Ryan Tandy so... where’s the straw man? Sounds like you’re straw manning.. lol
@@IbeTali It just so happens that people who hold to reformed theology can justify every assertion of their theology with scripture that clearly states it.So where's the "staw man"?
"Jacob i loved but Esau i hated" comes from Malachi 1, 2-4, written 1500 years after jacob and esau were dead, and is about god loving and favoring a nation over another, and destroying the other nation because of their sin. Esau is edom (verse 3-4) and jacob is israel. These verses have nothing to do with the individuals jacob and esau according to the old testament context of malachi 1. So the question is, would Paul take that verse out of the Old Testament context to make it mean something it didn't orignally mean?
I would argue
No. He would not do that...
Not only that, but the verse "the older will serve the younger" follows right after god tells rebekka she has two nations in her womb, so this verse also isnt about jacob and esau. esau never served jacob a day in his life. If anything, when jacob meets esau after betraying him, he calls himself esau's servant and begs forgiveness. Esau forgives him, rejects the offer to have jacob serve him, and the two live separate lives after that. However, Edom (nation from esau) ended up serving israel after israel subdued them in battle. Once again the question, would paul take the old testmant verse out of its original conext and historical meaning to make it about the individuals jacob and esau?
Again, i dont buy that. If you can simply take any verse out of its context and make it mean something it didnt orginally mean, how can we rely on any verses or say we know which interpretation is correct?
Paul uses the qiote to speak of the brothers as individuals,not as representative of nations.The context is that they had done neither good nor bad,talking about the personal actions of either individual. Paul changes the context in his quote from nations to the historical persons, he was being inspired by the Spirit when doing so, as an apostle .
@@neilgrobson58 so you're arguing that Paul, under the Holy Spirit, ripped the texts out of their original context to manipulate them to mean something the Holy Spirit didn't intend them to originally mean or represent? Seems to me a dangerous way to allow any text to be manipulated into what we want it to say.
It's key to note that Rabbis in Paul's day taught that God chose Jacob and therefore Israel for His plan in bringing the Messiah to the world because of Jacob's righteousness. Very clearly in the New Testament the Jews/Pharisees thought they were righteous enough for God, and so they were the natural choice for God's nation, hence rejection of Jesus and gentiles. I think Paul is disproving that in this verse.
@@tonygrigg1173 there are other instances where quotes from the OT are changed in the new. He did not rip it apart,The Holy Spirit inspired Paul. The context although in the OT referring to nations,clearly in Pauls usage means two individual children.He did not manipulate the text, the Holy Spirit used it in another way. "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad" refers to Rebekahs children,in context,and not two nations.To claim it as two nations here, is not good exegesis.There are other places where Pauls adds phrases from two ot three different passages to make a compound verse,he does so under the influence of the Spirit,not of his own .
credohouse.org/blog/12-reasons-romans-9-is-about-individual-election?fbclid=IwAR30Fj5FZE2barIdsvp2EnzwQMn86nSwRarOOD6ejeF_FCtoocjILEjf7aU
@@neilgrobson58 once again, please show me then how the verse about the older serving the younger, which is the very next verse, is about esau and jacob. Esau never served jacob. But edom did serve israel. And up until Augustine in the 400's AD, so I've heard, the church itself didn't even interpret Romans 9 as refering to individual salvation. I agree its about the individuals to some degree, but only to prove Paul's point that God never chose Israel because of the "fathers" righteousness (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as individuals to ground a nation of God's people). In Paul's day the Jews thought they were rigtheous enough for God and also naturally saved because of their nationality. "All Jews are saved, right?" That's what I think Paul is trying to disprove in Romans 9 - People falsely believing they are God's children when they are not.
Rom 9 addresses God's absolute sovereignty with the nation of Israel to bring about Salvation though Jesus's crucifixion. The Basics:. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (NOW!) and thou shalt be saved." Rejecters will not be. Why wouldn't the myriads of similar verses not say "those chosen to believe at creation will be saved"? Because it would be an accursed predestined different gospel! Those that Do believe are predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. Will "it was predestined" be a viable excuse at the Great White Throne Judgement? Believe and trust the Bible, not men! Let God be true and every man a liar!
Amen ! John Piper...
Piper’s explanation is terrible. Romans 9 clearly teaches unconditional reprobation! God HATED little baby Esau and as a result forces Esau to sin unto damnation!
Pastor John gets this wrong completely. "The scriptures teach that everyone who is sentenced to eternal condemnation, deserves to be there - ... - Nobody is in hell who doesn't deserve to be there - they will be there because of their unbelief and their sin." Everyone is a sinner and EVERYONE is sentenced to eternal condemnation and EVERYONE deserves to be there because of the fall. It is through belief in Jesus Christ as their savior and on that basis alone that we are brought to God. When you confuse the Elect and God's Mercy as Paul describes with Eternal Salvation you end up equating the Elect with "having caused a belief, uncondtionally, in Jesus Christ" and that belief was powered by God, not by yourself and you end up with the mental gymnastics that Calvinists wind up in.
Correct.. election is as a lot is cast, or it is as His choice (Just because) and He does this because it is in asserting His will.
I also know that God always knew Satan would fall, He still loved him no differently from the beginning because the fall of Satan holds nothing over the character of the Lord.
Not very loving if it is God that decreed him to sin, its not like Satan could go against that decree. (according to Calvinism)
Calvinists are not only inconsistent with Romans 9 but with the entire Bible
Calvinists are the only Christians who are intelligent enough to interpret the Bible in a logical way. If they are honest enough they may also make the next logical step - a step away from believing that the Bible is true. The reason you don't see this is that you reason based on emotion instead of pure logic.
How so? You made a statement, now you need to back it up with a good argument
What does Ecclesiastes say? 🤔it’s foolish to search things to deep? Something like that!
So it’s foolishness if we search for the Bible 🤔
+Jacob Chesney..I am not a Christian..I am a Follower of Jesus. Jesus said.."To Seek Him FIRST for HIS Righteousness." . That is what I Do. Jesus shows me which bible verses are Right for me. I have a Personal relationship with Jesus..(as anyone can) but if you prefer Everyone in your bible..that is fine with me.
Calvinism coming from a calvinist!
Calvinism coming from an expository teacher, the best of whom are Calvinists. This isn't surprising, though. The bible teaches the main tenants of Calvinism. After all, that's where the theology comes from. Arminians have a really difficult time defending what they believe, since it's normally an abstract interpretation of the verses they use.
@Sheep Dog yes was once a calvinist... everyone is guilty for their own! sin and it's better to follow the spirit than man... whether it be John Piper John MacArthur or Francis Chan....its faith plus works! Faith without works is dead
@@jacobchesney1558 there are more views than just Calvinism and Arminianism. Sure you can fit all of Calvinism in the Bible, but you cant fit all the Bible in Calvinism. There are simply too many parts that don't fit consistently into the Calvinist view
Brandon Bomberger you grossly misinterpret that verse of faith without works being dead
@Johnny Don everything you just said, Armenians would say the same thing about their view. in fact, Open theists would say that!
Context and cotext seem to be nations. As in national Israel versus Edon
Yes 💯 yes. Calvinist get Romans 9 completely wrong and turn a loving God into a monster.
Can't turn God into anything. He is who he is and he will always remain sovereign.
Inconsistent?yes very much so..
So is God’s election for his people random?
It's either random or merit-based, neither of which Calvinists like.
No it's based on God's will, which is neither respecting of people nor random. God chooses indiscriminately who will be saved.
@@jacobchesney1558 If He chooses indiscriminately, it's random.
Jacob Chesney
I’m definitely open to what you have to say, so what makes him choose one person over another? It just seems as is it’s random that way. I used to thing election was based off of repentance and belief, but those are granted. Can you use scripture to support your belief?
@@noahinson Sure, I look to Romans 9:11. It is according to God, who calls. It's just that simple. God has a desire to call a specific people according to His will. That's all there is to it, really. Random would be if God rolled dice or pulled straws, but this isn't the way the bible describes election. So it's not about us, it's about God and His purposes, which are a mystery to us.
Calvinism is Biblical Christianity
There is no decree of eternal damnation before the foundations of the world in the bible.
This, by far, the lowest instant I ever seen about someone trying to refute the predestination; are you trying to do the 'mirroring' the Scripture itself?
@@Mimu1983 I'm not refuting predestination. I am saying that there is nowhere in scripture that says God predestined certain folks to hell before the foundations of the earth were laid. It's that simple.
I would ask that if you think I'm wrong, then cite book, chapter, and verse. But I already know you cant!
@@1974jrod I know where this conversation is going. Okay, now and then I meet people like you. Let me be rhetorical to your question - do you have a problem with some people are predestined to be the children of God (Eph.1:5)? There are people who have been predestined to have sonship to God, while it is not true for all men. It is a simple logic of deduction which I am confident that you have mastered during the early stage of your life; this is my way to say how inappropriate your question is without being directly confrontational.
I seriously do not know why but there are people who say they believe in Jesus Christ, and they are saved THEN they argue about how unfair to have someone predestined to hell instead of being grateful of having their salvation prepared before they were born. Yes we ought to love and grieve for the lost people, yes we ought to pray for them BUT it never occurred to me that we ought to speak and advocate the Equality of Salvation which so many anti-Calvinists fantasize about.
@@Mimu1983 A logical deduction? Based on what? Do you realize that scripture that is explicit about salvation trumps someone's implicit interpretation about scripture? Or any other writing for that matter.
The thing is, you have no idea where this conversation is going. You presuppose that your powers of interpretation, and Pipers, interpretation of implied verses , somehow contradict, John the Baptist, Jesus, and Paul's explicit writings concerning the salvation of men.
And I already told you , I have no problem with predestination at all. What I do have a problem with is, is dickwads like Piper, Sproul, Carson, etc, running around like arrogant pharisees, telling the world that God predestinates certain
folks to hell before the foundations of the world , when in facts he absolutely does not. Now either I am right , or I am wrong, but I can tell you if I am wrong, then according to your idiotic interpretation, scripture is contradictory and it might as well be thrown away.
@@1974jrod Unless you are NOT one of the Elect, what is your problem with God sending the unrepenting, unconverted, unbelieving people to Hell? It is basically in the Scripture about what God will do to those people, and I find it rather funny to see those people raising an objection about God doing His righteousness upon the enemies to God.
You cannot grasp the idea that, as God has chosen His people before the time, there are people whom God hates thus subjected to (will be subjected to) His wrath - because you think that it is not FAIR. I think you are from one of those Independent Baptist Churches; no, I am not denouncing or villainizing all of them but I am under the impression that some of those churches are hatching low-quality pseudo-Arminian theologies (involving much of attempts to undermine some of the well-known pastors, especially of Calvinists). Their theologies are being justified not through the entirety of the Scripture, but cherry-picking of Word suitable for their own interpretations.
Why people made their own idol named 'GOD IS LOVE', I can understand. Some of those people even try to make God a politically correct being - even if the Scripture reveals that He is not. I do not think any of those people would ever try to justify why Israelites were commanded to eradicate the Canaanite tribes in the Old Testament. Tell me, would you challenge God about why they deserve to perish? I think the picture of what happens to (and how God ordains for those) Elects and non-Elects is VERY CLEAR here. Do you seriously think it is wrong to say the Elect will go to Heaven and God have ordained the others to Hell? Then take it up to God Himself as it is He who shall do it. Well, unless you now want to discredit the Book of Revelation.
It is you and your kind of people first came up with the term "A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE" for both sides - where did you learn to simply define the Elect as "A GROUP OF PEOPLE" in the first place? Setting aside my disgust for your word plays, tell me if it is not true that '2 - 1 = 1' is correct. Of all people, we have the people who have been predestined to be the children of God. Then there are the rest who have not been predestined to be the children of God. Unless you are telling me people can go to Heaven and enjoy the fellowship with God without being the children of God, those are going to Hell. PERIOD. It is wrong to point fingers and be judgemental, but if you find the statement that some people will go to Hell because God has made them to be what they are offensive or wronged anyone, then come up with a better theology than the Scripture.
Why would Anyone care what Calvinists or Paul said? when they can Have Jesus? Personally to Guide them in the Way they should go? I Seek Jesus..as He Ask..and it is He..Who Helps me Know what is Right for me and that which I should think and do. He is a Personal Savior..and He does Not Need Pastor John..Paul..or Calvinists!
So when Paul says something you don't like, even though it's right there in the scriptures, you're gonna ignore it because Jesus? This isn't how we coherently understand the Bible. At that point, just throw the whole thing out. Paul had the authority of the Holy Spirit to write God's truth, as did the Gospel writers. Either its all God's word or it isn't.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance all that Jesus taught and would teach all truth. Paul had encounters with Jesus, perhaps by visions. Peter called Paul's writings "scripture" on a par with the Old Testament. So when you denigrate the writings of Paul, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul's words, you reject the promise of Jesus, and you reject part of the teachings of Jesus.
You know that Luke and Mark were not apostles, right? They got their information by interviewing and listening to the apostles and other witnesses. Luke accompanied Peter and Paul, and Mark relied mostly on Peter. What you are doing is choosing Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- two of who weren't even primary witnesses -- over other apostles. This is "schism," or as translated in the KJV, "heretical."
In addition, Jesus addressed first-century Jews living under the Temple system and the Mosaic Law. Are you a Jew? Do you live under the Mosaic covenant with Israel? Do you present sacrifices at the temple? You must be a greater scholar than the greatest scholars among the apostles if you know how to apply Jesus' words to 21st-century gentile life.
@@RichardWheeler-SE-BA-PM
Indeed Richard...
She's living a delusion is an excommunicated Mormon who still holds to those relational archetypes and spends personal time conversing with Jesus... It's only now 6 months after this, she's getting white bold and aggressive.
GOD is not constrained to time and space. HE’s actually outside of them. So that there’s no past, present or future to HIM. In GOD’s eyes I just exist. If I was created in resemblance of HIM I do have the eternity within me. Indeed I’m in eternity (that’s why everyone will rise again in the LORD’s Day). I don’t realize this because my flesh is limited to understand all implications that derive from this. That’s why Paul talks about vessels of honor/dishonor. You are what you are to GOD’s eyes. BUT there’s a great danger to think about life only in this way because GOD wants that all sinners repent and turn to HIM. This means that the future is not written. Everywhere The Gospel invites the sinners to believe in JESUS CHRIST. So it’s up to you in your lifespan to decide what you really are: a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. Conclusion: it’s all up to you! That’s how I see it - like seeing in a blurry mirror.
If the future is not written, and salvation was up to me to decide, in my sin, I would never have chosen God.
Aaron Lui Why so many invitations The Bible does to the sinners? Why the Bible says that GOD “...wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”?
1 Timothy 2:3-4 CSB
Once the creation doesn’t constraint His Creator, GOD acts are not constrained to time/space where we live today. And we cannot grasp all the greatness of GOD. But He shares with us a little bit of what He is and how He acts. I must repeat: there’s no time/space to GOD, that’s why He says: I am what I am. He doesn’t foresee because He’s above the time. Why He told to the thief on the cross: “today you’ll be with me in the heaven” if the judgement day is yet to come?
I’m not denying the biblical doctrines Calvin taught to us. I’m just using a new perspective. Because, in our limited grasp of the greatness of our Creator, I have to conclude: I must repent of my sins and turn to GOD through JESUS CHRIST alone. It’s all up to me! So help me GOD!
Yep a deeper understanding of time and eternity is key to understanding predestination and free will. Men like Piper, RC Sprool and likely Calvin also understand freewill better than most who adhere to freewill doctrine, but they still fell to bring it full circle in view of eternity. Aaron is right that WE would never chose God, but that God has given us everything in this world the good and that bad that all points towards him. In that way God is directing and influencing our choice, but in no way does he ever dictate our choice. Additionally he most certainly does have foreknowledge of our choice.
Our freewill in this world is what will bring about a perfect Edom like eternity in which their will never be another fall, yet we will still have a free will choice in heaven to rebel just as Jesus did while on earth.
Consider it this way: In order for God's creation to be perfect He had to create us with the ability to make a choice. If God just dictated our choices he would be acting just like Satan and we could never have true perfection. Imagine you were appointed with the task of picking 2 strangers to get married to one another. They had no choice in the matter. They had to marry the person you chose for them. Even if you found a couple that was suited for each other, and even if this couple met one another's needs, and they lived a long happy life together their marriage could never be perfect. They would always feel the other person was forced into it and that it was not a marriage based on love.
Perfection takes love and love
takes a choice.
Is John a Calvinist I don’t get it
Dima Konovalov he is I think
Yes, very strongly so he has a wonderful series on all 5 points of Calvinism (9 sermons in all) which actually saved me from my anti Lordship cheap grace views of salvation and God granted me repentance through them.
@@landonsmith348 Would you prefer God offer everyone salvation or "limit" the atonement to *some* asses as long as *yours* is one of them?
@@20july1944 1. What I desire is completely irrelevant to what is actually true about God.
2. I deserve hell, it's that simple, I will thank God forever that He changed me from where I was and made me born again, I don't deserve it. I struggle with the idea that God offered anyone salvation, it seems too spectacular to be true, that God died to save lost souls that He hated the actions of enough to righteously send them to eternal suffering and torment. Why would God offer salvation to anyone who has done 1 tiny thing against Him, He is the ruler of the universe and I have no answer for why He loved in such a way to save anyone, what I want from God is irrelevant when I deserve absolutely nothing except punishment.
3. If the position I am defending is true, then I will not question God's reasons, I may ask questions about them but not in the sense of putting God on the judgment seat and making moral arguments against something God says He does. My small human self has nothing to say back to God on any matter. What matters is what is true and I will love everything about the true God that created me to the extent that Gods pleasure allows me to do so.
@@landonsmith348 Can you be following Jesus's 2nd great commandment if you do *not* desire that God offer everyone salvation?
Short answer: yes.
This is painful to listen to 😭. He literally contradicts himself 😂. Unconditional election ➡️ go to hell if not elected ➡️ why ➡️ because you didn’t get pre-faith regeneration ➡️ why didn’t you get pre-faith regeneration ➡️ “idk…anyway, just go to hell because God likes it”➡️but I thought God was good ➡️ well he is but…not to you➡️uhhh what about this mountain of scripture that says otherwise ➡️ uhm yeah well idk….Calvinism go brrr.
Not to mention the butchering of Romans 9😂, so so so cringe.
no
In reference to Paul’s analogy of the potter and the clay, to assume that the lump of clay is “fallen man” has to be read into the text. It is more likely that the clay is neutral until the potter decides to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor.
The one lump was Rebecca
@@aletheia8054 How do you know that the lump was Rebecca?
@@jazzmankey Out of one lump came two. Esau and Jacob. Twins
One a vessel of honor and the other a vessel of dishonor.
@@aletheia8054 I agree with you that Jacob was a type of a vessel of honor and that Esau was a vessel of dishonor. However, In context, Paul had already moved on from his reference to Rebecca in vs.10, to Moses in vs.15, and then to Pharaoh in vs. 17 well before he begins talking about mankind as the clay in vs.20 and then God as the Potter in vs. 21.
At best your conclusion is speculation read into the text.
@@jazzmankey moved on? It’s the same paragraph
the image that God gave me is this, as far as predestination is concerned:
Imagine if you will that God has a library, big enough to contain at least one book from the moment a person is born until they go home to be with him, which he writes before a person is actually born. this is his perfect plan of a person, the one that HE personally designed the "predestined plan" if you will.
when you are born, he begins to document everything that happens in a play by play and writes a whole other book this contains every decision you make, whether you get saved or not, whether you do an action you were supposed to do, whether you get married or no, whether you have children or not whether the world deceives you with a trap placed by the devil. that's predestination in a nutshell
All are saved . Isaiah 65:25 confirm whet this old timer said years ago that he believed God to be so perfect that Satan is in heaven. Adam and Eve were told they would die and ?. Ya lived before as I read in Romans 3:23. and 5:13. All sin passed over or not taken into account . All had to live again. All who have ever lived are alive now in the judgment. Ezekiel 37 now is fulfilled and makes sense.
Y’all both need to beg God to save you and put His Spirit in you. Repent and believe.
predestination is PREDETERMINED not foreknowledge or based on merit. God existed before time and the bible says before creation itself, so before time itself He determined you for himself. People want some claim to their salvation to show God "look what I did!". You were dead in trespasses and sins and who rose you to life? yourself when you accepted Christ or God who rose you by His own will?
@@poke_champ Would you *prefer* that God offer everyone salvation, or that He select a group for certain salvation?
You're suggesting God learns about man, rather than creates man's destiny. Have a look at the biblical texts John discusses in the video.
So anyways, here's an actual exegesis of Romans 9:
ruclips.net/video/7y4yjSwEkfY/видео.html
Roman’s 9 is speaking of individuals and nations. It is also speaking of salvation.
How so?
Esau and Ishmael were not saved and they were used as the examples in Romans 9.
We see Paul speak of salvation and wanting to trade places (accursed is implying it’s speaking of salvation):
Romans 9:3
[3] For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.
The children of God are the saved, as you must be a child of God for salvation:
Romans 9:8
[8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
We also see the start of Romans 10:1 Paul says his desire is for them to be saved. Who’s them? Well those individuals and children of the flesh he was just speaking about in Romans 9.
The Bible clearly talks about election and the sovereignty of God. It also talks about the responsibility of man and the fact that Christ gave Himself a ransom for all. Where men have fallen down is to restrict themselves to limited portions of scripture to the rejection of other portions. When we understand scripture from God's point of view and side as well as from man's perspective, then taken together they show the wonder and total security of God's salvation which is extended towards all in the gospel and applicable to those who believe.
We who are born again of the Spirit of God are all Christians, saved by Grace through Faith. Those who have taken the title of Calvinists or Armenians are totally wrong and are failing to appreciate what a wonderful God we have whose love and grace is extended to all men. Men's narrow mindedness has caused division in the 'church' and has been used by Satan to cause bitterness and even hatred among brethren and sisters who should be loving one another.
Total depravity
U mean total inability
They are inconsistent with the whole Bible!!!!
Calvinists interpretation of this is awfully misguided.
Sure we know how the reprobate come to be deserving of hell. By nature we were ALL deserving of hell and Jesus saved some of us from that.
That nature is determined by God
@@chrisstevens1156 Give me a Biblical scripture reference that support that.No...Adam determined mankind's nature when He disobeyed God.
@@Brenda-qo4ko can you ask the question again? I believe my statement was that calvinism states that our nature was determined by God. I find no biblical support for that. I deny total depravity
Piper is purposely ignoring the Calvinist teaching that mankind is born “unable” to seek God or to humble ourselves before God. God must choose us before we can choose Him. Calvinism destroys the good character and heart of God, and portrays God as evil and sadistic.
Molinism y'all. God's middle knowledge
That's my answer.
@@paulkimbap Repent of what?
is wrong
@@poke_champ Do you object to Molinism? Why?
Middle knowledge makes God's decree subservient to some mysterious "card dealer." Middle knowledge is found nowhere in Scripture. The truth that God decrees all things not based on forelearning is found all over scripture.
Amen!