Cluster C Personality Disorders and Shame
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2018
- This video answers the question: What is the relationship between shame and the Cluster C personality disorders (avoidant, dependent, and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder). Shame is a perception that individual has that they have some sort of defect in themselves. This perception is a distressing emotion and theoretically this emotion leads to withdrawing, fleeing, and attempting to escape. This is different than guilt because the behavior that comes from guilt is trying to make amends, so in comparing shame and guilt we usually think of shame as more problematic, particularly in the mental health treatment community. There are different ways to think about shame when we think about treating individuals who have mental health symptoms or mental disorders. One way of thinking about it is the idea of shame proneness and this is the propensity to experience shame across a number of different situations. This would be how likely somebody would be to experience shame in multiple situations. Shame proneness has been studied and has been associated with a number of different mental disorders and symptoms of mental disorders including anxiety, depression, posttraumatic stress disorder, hostility, aggression, eating disorders, and a fear of intimacy. Another construct around shame would be shame aversion and this is when somebody perceives shame as being particularly undesirable, unwanted, or painful.
Schoenleber, M., & Berenbaum, H. (2010). Shame aversion and shame-proneness in Cluster C personality disorders. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 119(1), 197-205. doi:10.1037/a0017982
I have AVPD, I am a survivor if childhood abuse both at home and at school. I am also a survivor of an abusive marriage. I avoid groups eg church or sports teams. I just can't handle people, i don't understand them sometimes. Home is a very safe space for me.
Avoidant people don't avoid research studies because they are avoiding social interactions, it's because they are avoiding judgment. I have AvPD and am involved with a long term research study exactly because I know how few participants there are worldwide. I don't interact socially with the researchers; they are very businesslike, so it's like interacting with a doctor. They've also made an extreme effort to be non-reactive and to not let me know the results of the study (which is how they're supposed to be run, but sometimes people let things slip - these researchers never let anything slip.) I encourage other people with AvPD to participate in studies, because without accurate research (not assumptions such as "it's just like social anxiety disorder") then no progress will be made toward better understanding and treatment.
ck2d How did you come to be in this study?
@@macmedic892 i want to know also...
I thought i had a cluster b personality disorder. A week ago i went to a psychologist for evaluation. Turns out im in the cluster c. I cant aford therapy but at least i have an idea of where I am.
My understanding is that Dr. Grande meant us Avoidants avoid social interactions because of the possible judgment one may encounter in these studies, as we do in every other social interaction. I totally agree though with your thoughts about participating in research. I wish I could help out but I'm from a developing country and not aware of any research conducted near me.
I have avpd and I will participate if you give me the information to join the study.
I relate strongly to all cluster C, some traits of A too. I most definitely have cPTSD and PTSD. My medical file reads like Wikipedia's Autism comorbidity list. I am autistic. I would really appreciate learning more on why Autists tend to align with these particular personality traits. You have been a lifeline of understanding for me. Thank you Dr Grande
Hey,
I just wanted to say that I truly enjoy all of your videos.
And your rate of video uploads is really commendable.
Thank you so much!
When I feel shame, I am trying to "convert" it into a more productive emotion, like guilt (you can deal with that by making reparations or apologizing, if appropriate) or gratitude (one can be thankful for being helped instead of being ashamed of being "needy"). At least, that the theory. Practice can be harder, since shame can be extremely powerful. But at least trying to deal with it seems to be better than running away from it, or-even worse-denying it...
SK That’s an interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing! I don’t suffer from any Cluster C personality disorder but relate to the feelings of shame and feeling very pained by shame. I do have PTSD. I might try to get unstuck from overwhelming shameful feelings by focusing on gratitude for help or on changing what I can fix.
I have OCPD. My life is being obsessed with morality, rules and achieving perfection. I can confirm what you say about trying to achieve the ideal self and liking organization. I actually fear of being seen as stupid or useless and i try to make Sure to restrict as much emotion as i can and i talk in a very formal and polite way with others trying to show as less emotions as possible because emotions expose and cause pain. I can Feel my emotions wanting to come out before others but i just fear to be seen as someone stupid. The ideal self i have i a very strong Worker who never allows emotions or his own desires get in to the way. I also see desires as weak because of my father probably emotionally abusing me. I Sacrifice my own desires and needs believing it makes me a loyal Servant of Society who puts others above him. I Really wanna achieve a state of Perfection and when i realize i do Not have it, i am hard and unforgiving to myself for not achieving it sometimes. Details, Lists and Organizations are also Things i obsess about. I always make sure that i am entirely safe and this is why i overcomplicate life by worrying about each tiny Detail that cause me damage from others
Camel King of the Mediteranean Sea
Thanks for writing this!
This is exactly my ex.
But he left me because he felt I’m too emotional and he says he can’t feel any emotions. He even doesn’t understand that humans show certain emotions in a certain situation and it’s normal.
He had told me he has OCD, so I’m telling you this.
Your thoughts on this?
i thought it was interesting that it is difficult to find adequate sample sizes for people with cluster C personality disorders. I never thought about it like that
This was a very interesting video! I truly liked how you defined the differences between shame proneness, aversion, and also guilt.
The information given in this video was very clear and understandable; this makes the video very easy to follow along with.
Shame proneness was an eye opener. Thank you!!
Fascinating, thank you for a concise yet clear explanation.
I wonder if part of the difficulty treating Cluster C disorders is that awareness brings a "catch-22" experience associated with shame proneness and aversion (i.e. isolation, loneliness, a sense of insignificance, ambivalence), which provides motivation for change. I also wonder if treatment and awareness of the emotional ambivalence and sense of hopelessness could cause one to commit suicide. Indeed, treatment is a slippery slope (maybe?), as the experience of feeling trapped and challenged by a personality structure based on torment may bring awareness and the desire to flee treatment or life.
Thanks for bringing awareness to these important questions.
You made a great point! Thank for putting it so well.
I get panic attacks when I get called up in my class because I am sooo afraid of getting a question wrong even though I know that nobody will rly laugh at me. I try my best to not be afraid but it didn't work. I tend to get held back by my fear, I don't like to join after school activities. I probably have zero self confidence, even though I do good academically I cannot really socialize in person. I mostly stay in my room locked away from my family.
As always great video. Thanks Dr. G
You are quite welcome!
I found this topic particularly interesting since I had not considered shame aversion and shame proneness in relation to PDs. I did skim the article and plan to read it later. I noted that the authors stated their reason for focusing on severity was because of the "dearth of evidence" that supports categorical representation of PDs.
This is fascinating
A video on shame in general would be very interesting.
Relationships with people in cluster C are an endless, exhaustive roller coaster for everyone around them.
Hello Dr. Grande, thank you for posting all these videos! They are interesting & helpful. I am thinking of becoming a therapist in substance use disorders, do you have videos on this? Are you a therapist and university professor?
I found it interesting how shame proneness was associated with depression,
aggression and eating disorders but I’m not surprised. At some point or another
the diagnosed individual feels shame for the behavior engaged in. For example,
a person with an eating disorder may be ashamed of his or her body which
led to the behavior of starving or purging.
Thanks for the information. Could you list some examples of how a dependent personality disorders would behave ?
I can see how research is difficult with individuals with cluster C PD. And it’s interesting that it’s hard for OCDP studies because of their perfectionism.
Dear Todd, its great to learn from you on how to diagnose and deal with various personality disorders. Please could you also throw light on Psychoanalytical aspects in the Personality Construct like Primitive Emotions, Ego Ideal, Transference, Projective Identification, Cognitive Dissonance and also advise the use of Theodore Millon's Subtypes while diagnosing Personality Disorders as almost all Personality Constructs have Spectrums like Borderline Spectrum, Anti-Social Spectrum and Neurobiological Spectrums like Bipolar Spectrum, OCD Spectrum..etc...it is possible to have 2 or 3 subtypes within the same Spectrum in as Traits in the Personality Construct and not just the simplistic observation of 'symptoms' for diagnosing a personality disorder..
I was not aware that shame was considered to be more problematic than guilt. I would think that each on their own would carry a significant cause for concern.
This comes from more western bias and how they define the terms, imo. Western countries tend to be guilt based societies more often, and therefore consider guilt to be the norm in keeping people socially together. In shame based societies like China, shame is more of the norm and less so guilt. Shame means knowing your social place better in that context. One western psychologist I saw defined guilt as doing something wrong, and shame as being wrong. Therefore, shame is worse because rather than trying to act towards a better thing, you are already wrong in shame. In shame based societies, shame is there so you do behave correctly, though, and aren't shameful. They are both there to try to change behavior in people and keep social cohesion. Since guilt is more culturally favored by the west, their definitions tend to favor a form of toxic shame when talking about shame, since perpetual shame is not the norm of how one should feel within those societies.
I have suicidal shame at times I think because of many of my horrific behaviors that I did while in the midst of one of my active psychotic and completely destructive DID personalities. I check out and go to complete forgetfulness now on purpose to block my memories out because I want to be dead otherwise. And as far as personality disorders go I have mix max of many. I've been in therapy for years but currently am not and dont know where to begin.
Dr. Grande, Could you please do more videos on Cluster C? I’ve been searching for about 1 1/2 years to figure my husband out. I’m pegging him with Dependent & OCPD. Life has been very difficult. My main question of concern is we are about to go to counseling together and he plays a really good victim (covert narcissist). He only tries when he thinks I will leave him (abandonment) so it appears that he’s always trying! Also, if I ask him a question, he goes blank. He has confirmed that he if thinking of what answer that I would like to hear as opposed to the actual truth. Huge problem! Thanks for all of the videos you provide!!!
Interesting video, I can see how it can be hard to find participants for a study with this topic.
Thank you 🖒
Sir what about the treatment management ?can you recommend some books in this regard.
How would you go about volunteering for studies if you wanted to?
I wonder what role transference plays in experiencing shame
I suppose to fit in all of what you said, except the last .... for i am way to avoident, even though people around me don`t seem to understand why i behave that way, for they think i am so straight, organized, clever, etc. .... but i can`t, i am fearful, i fear i am not enough. My Mother and my brother always say that they are allright, because they are working, all the time.... i am not.
Theoretically, if someone with a Cluster C PD was willing to be a participant in a study, how would he go about doing so?
macmedic892 interesting point!
Find a research hospital in your area once found seek info through front desk or going to its website I’m sorry but I don’t know you
Whoever reads my previous comment, please forgive as I’m not sure the meaning behind the comments
I'd participate in a research study.
Doctor Grande, I believe I'm cluster C personality disorder. If you want me to participate of your group research, please let me know. I would be honored to help professionals to understand us better.
Can one be generous and creative AND have ocpd?
Jade, I found Dr Grande's video on "Avoidant vs. Narcissism" fantastic-- as well as any other material on the CLUSTER C's. I wonder if one with OCPD can indeed be creative? I'd think a performing artist's "intrusive thought " never releasing its grip becomes an absolute obsession carried out. I heard a Comic who writes their own material spends most of the time editing--- because there's simply too much unpacking. IMO, this makes them exceptional in their craft because they have enough awareness to pull back and feed it to the masses. Generosity is not as self-serving of a trait as creativity. But, I speculate could be achieved if one with OCPD could manage to start small. For example, I have a friend who suffers in that same cluster: I noticed a shift in them recently as they stopped blaming others and gradually picked up on a "generosity of tone towards people." That had to be daunting. They still take 5-6 minutes to straighten and handle things before they get in and out of the car--- and they still keep people at a good, safe distance. But I just wanted a chance to ponder your question...
True OCD is dysfunctional, I believe. I have met many persons that loudly brag unironically about their "ocd." They led apparently normal lives -- they just liked the idea of having a problem to whine about. They are disgusting drama queens. I have encountered an actual OCD sufferer. That sufferer was almost completely dysfunctional on occasion because of his tortuous fixations. I think the OCD diagnosis is perhaps overused by the professionals.
When are psychological professionals going to start Talking about how adhd and autistic genetic neurological traits effect all these psychological diagnosis? Especially this cluster, but also others. I’m actually relatively securely attached - but have suffered depression a few times in relation to the effects of my traits in school, work, and criticism of my personal habits ( not as a child - again, safe home, largely secure attachment).
The questions are what happened to me AND what are my god given neurological traits. I believe mental health cannot actually be improved without addressing BOTH.
All of these videos that don’t address neurodiversity are not explaining the whole picture. Trauma, childhood DO influence likelihood of psychological “disorders”, but the blueprint is in the genes, in the physiology of the brain and nervous system.
Comment 61: 12,811 views, profound...
Im glad nobody knows who Jerry Marshall really is,cause im damn ashamed to admit alot of this stuff is hard to follow.this cluster,that cluster,ocabcdefg an alpphabet of dysfunction.No reflection on the Doctor he is a good communicator,im just not up to speed like most of the commenters.
Let me answer the question at the beginning
Your mom
Just kidding, love your channel
Reasonably it seems that any analysis of subjects behavior is visited by ‘fatigue’. Just after answering endless and what seems to be meaningless questionnaires - people feel extremely fatigued. Maybe researchers should offer a 1 night stay in a hotel to get people more involved? I can’t drive 30 miles to a center to answer questions;, take a test that to me seems meaningless and depressing; then drive 30 miles back while feeling examination exhaustion. It was difficult enough to take a 3-6 hour professional test to get a state or federal job. Sorry u have heard this all before, I know.
Once established the 3 personality disorders, just say
Avoidant disorder, dependent
disorder, cluster c disorders
unnecessary repetition and makes too many words to have to listen to
Personality disorders do not exist