Maybe the reason for Ranni's Fingers being so distorted is the usage of the power of the Rune of Death to kill it. I mean, look at what it did to Godwyn. Ranni taking inspiration from the Fingerslayer Blade to make the Black Knives isn't impossible, given that she already knows about its existance in advance, and I imagine she would be in good terms with the Nox.
problem with that theory is the reason Godwyn is so distorted is because he isnt dead. the soul is dead but the body lives and the living corpse squirms to grow and conquer as if its a plant made of skin, muscle, and bone hence the body horror we behold ranni's fingers are dead, like just out-and-out dead. no pseudo-death event going on there so outside of a few 'joints' possibly being broken bones there no real explanation for the apparent thumb that appears to be there
She was in good terms with the Nox, up until the Tarnished stole the Fingerslayer Blade in Nokron, because by the end of her questline we see the bodies of Black Knife Assassins near Blaidd and Iji.
@@mmyr8ado.360 those werent real Black Knife Assassins, they were only pretending to be thats why their flames were black and white instead of black and red. those were godskin assassins
Adula is probably there to keep the fingers in place. There was clearly a back exit to the hole. The tunnel was probably an attempt to escape the cathedral. But with a dragon keeping watch, the fingers ended up stuck there. Which means it was already there well before Radahn's death. I think the whole cathedral might relate to some failed plot of Ranni's. My guess is an earlier failed attempt to kill the fingers. I'm not sure why that necessitated building a cathedral for them. But there's a lot here that we're missing. My guess, she tried dropping a baby Astel on the fingers and that's why there's a hole in the building and the fingers look kinda mangled.
I think Ranni's fingers descended long ago before the shattering and the night of Black Knives. I suspect they became significantly distorted after Ranni shed her Empyrean body as they were directly link to it and Ranni. The key aspect of killing Radahn was freeing Ranni's fate which is what finally allowed Ranni to use the Finger slayer blade, which notably can only be wielded by someone with a fate.
Thought: Ranni's Two Fingers are the only real Two Fingers, and the others are all constructs/avatars/puppets it speaks through. It would explain why such a sacred being was so exposed on the towers and in the Roundtable Hold when all other divine figures are hidden away (answer is they weren't, they were always hidden underground). And it'd explain why the others look like wooden, moldering constructs while these are fleshy and alive.
That actually makes me curious. There's a point where the two fingers at the round table fall silent and enter an almost dormant state. If this event triggers after Ranni has killed her two fingers, then it may confirm your theory.
I think the two fingers were there a long time before Radhan was killed. One has to wonder then why they were in such a hidden and inaccessible place and I think they were there because they were hiding from Ranni. So when the stars started moving again they not only showed us the way to Nokron but by falling on Manus Celes they helped Ranni to find the location where the two fingers were hiding.
@@Letwoo67 I think this is correct. The item's description says it allows to sever a connection with the Greater Will, so it makes sense that Ranni kills her Two Fingers only after getting the item. I also think this is the moment where the Greater Will enforces Blaidd's curse, making him go mad.
While we're used to broad caves in games, IRL caves often twist and turn in all three dimensions- a lot like the one the fingers are in. It could be that these two have been hidden here for a long time!
It might make sense if Ranni being an Empyrean had something to do with her two fingers being weird, but the ones in the Isolated Divine Tower are for Malenia (probably for her and Miquella) so that goes out the window. Maybe it could be that all the others died, but Ranni's were able to live for longer? Also, one thing that might discount the fingers crashing into Manus Celes during the events of the game is whether the model of the church as seen from outside the Moonlight Altar is dynamic. Clearly the model in Moonlight Altar is fixed, since the Two Fingers are dead with Ranni on them regardless of whether you've progressed anything; the game just doesn't think you'll be able to get there without the questline.
Most likely, that entire part of the map is where Renalla took Ranni to meet her own moon. Ranni having this meeting made her more qualified to be an Empyrean, with or without flesh as she had a source for her own order and would even confirm she has one. Manus Celeste was likely the heart most root to those of the moon orders, in turn in wedding with Radagon it would be disingenuous to not incorporate it with the Church of Vows. Before she was queen of Caria, Rennala found her full moon and dazzled what's now Raya Lucaria with it into its place as ruler, suggesting two separate lives for her. All around Manus Celeste if we still had any doubts, are multiple ruins suggesting a people of the moon. and sorcerers who can fade around like Ranni can. Radagon marrying Rennala, it would be weird if she kept secrets from him. Radagon seeing first hand Carian faith being one with its brilliance would only take inspiration further of the concepts of union which would one day reach his son Miquella, who would further the concepts with his own contagious shine.
i absolutely just love how this game makes you feel like you’re entering an entirely different world filled with secrets and wonders whenever we went underground. Great vid, Hope you hit 100k soon😁
With how all the fingers atop the Divine Towers seem to be wooden, yet the one’s in Roundtable Hold and Manus Celes seem to be flesh, its possible that the wooden ones are puppets of sorts. Perhaps the real fingers exist below the ground, or are in some way obscured. Maybe Ranni killed or destroyed the one atop the Liurnian Divine Tower, but knew or learned that the real two fingers she was bound to were elsewhere. As to why she would destroy the puppet? Maybe because she wanted to hide her discarded body there, and leaving them behind presented the possibility of the Two fingers locating it, or maybe it was just an act of defiance. (I was going to suggest that it could also have to do with Ranni being an Empyrean, but Malenia’s tower still has a pair and if Miquella shares the tower with her like Morgott and Mohg do, its likely a feature unique to Ranni’s tower.) As for the Three fingers theory for Ranni’s fingers, Zullie made a video covering it. The model has no third finger and is likely intended to be vague.
Because of the mushrooms down in the hole, it was my impression that they fingers had been there for a while, but maybe the hole itself wasn't. Like the fingers were buried under the cathedral anticipating Ranni's betrayal of the Golden Order. Then when we beat Radan, a meteor or something crashes into the cathedral and that reveals the location of her TF.
My best take for the cathedral itself: since the statues hold swords that (at least at a glance) look kind of familiar to the great swords the carian queens use as a betrothal gift, maybe this was, were weddings took place. Would fit with the game since we're basically going there to put a ring on our blue god-wife to be. as for it's state, I can and want to believe that it was destroyed by falling stars, just long before the start of the game, maybe about the same rough timeframe Radagon left Renalla. I find it hard to believe that ranni spaced her fingers to be free of their influence without anyone objecting to it and then crash them into a cathedral and murder them for good measure. I think she did hid them there, basically holding them hostage to perform her ritual atop her tower. Later on near the end of her quest I think she comes back to them to kill them and completely free herself of their influence, which is why they look relatively fresh as opposed to any other pair we find. Ranni's ending sets everyone essentially free of the golden order while she goes on that star-searching journey or whatever, something she would not have been able to do while under their influence, on the other hand, killing them while the order is still in relatively full power would've just marked her as a traitor to it. as for how that hole came to be... if we're not gonna question how the gigantic star-skull scorpions from space that shoot meteors by opening portals to the void are always and only found deep underground whiel their larvae state is found in craters (and one mine), so let's also not question as to how that hole exactly formed. I can believe that it was originally a crater from whatever destroyed the place and ranni just dug up a little more to have a proper place to hide her fingers, I don't see them climbing out of there anytime soon and no one sane jumping down there to look, especially with to door-dragon set to "attack on sight". They being down their for a while would make sense with the surrounding flora in the last chamber. Tl;Dr: Cathedral was maybe a place for royal weddings, was destroyed way before the game, fingers were hid there to not incriminate ranni, she came back to kill them after we are basically done with her whole plan. She did not plan for us to come here after all
@@Ziostorm Thats one very important fact for your crash landing theory, if the only way to get to manus celes is through rannis quest and the balefull shadow appearing only when you ve progressed through ansel river which is the next location for rannis questline:)
@@Ziostorm I found a video where a guy abuses the stake of Marika at the top of the plateau to get up there early. Dies in the range of it due to poison and it revived him on top prior to Radan's death. It's all the same and you can even give Ranni the ring before having it physically because there's no requirement to actually have the item. You can just trigger the ending of her quest immediately.
I’m not an expert when it comes to lore but what I got out of this video is maybe the cathedral got destroyed over time from the dragon defending it. Or maybe something tried to stop Ranni from killing the two fingers but they were underground and couldn’t get to her in time. Love your videos I’m glad I found your channel.
I just realized that although Seluvis made a completely identical doll body for Sellen, Ranni's doll body is nothing like that. Ranni has a very obvious, doll-like, four-armed doll body. I wonder why she didn't have Seluvis create a new body that resembled her original one, or at least create a doll that was not blue and four armed.
In his video, "What it takes to become an Empyrian" (Amazing video btw), The Tarnished Archeologist speculates that Ranni was arranged to be married to Godwyn. If we follow that thread, and given the Church of Vows was built to conduct and honor the union of Rennala and Radagon, what if the church of Manus Celes was built in anticipation of Ranni and Godwyn's marriage? It exists as a reminder of her duty decided for her by the Fingers and the Golden Order. With that purpose in mind, it makes sense she would block off the entrance until a potential consort came along- one that _she_ would choose.
I have a few ideas. I think that the cathedral of Manus Celes was built in honor of Rennala while the Church of Vows was built for Radagon. Maybe Manus was built by the Carian royal family and Ranni took the opportunity to hide her two fingers beneath the cathedral. I also believe that the reason why Ranni's fingers look different, is because her fingers aren't tied to the greater will like our two fingers. We see the two fingers in the round table hold stick straight up after we burn the tree, though I can't remember exactly how or when they do this, but when we enter Placidusax's boss arena, we see him holding a similar pose. My theory is that both are either communing with their respective gods, or trying to commune. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of moon or star deity that communicated to Ranni through her unique two fingers. We know for a fact that there are multiple different fingers, so it's possible that Ranni's two fingers were either made by a different outer god or if they were taken over by it. Did it get taken over because of Ranni's actions away from the greater will? It's also entirely possible that her fingers got so messed up as a result of Ranni's body's death. I don't know how linked the two fingers are to demigods or empyreans, so it's entirely possible that the night of black knives physical twisted Ranni's two fingers.
For player perspective killing Radahn was recent but maybe in game years pased.Maybe our journey was century long cuz tarnished cannot get old or die.Sry for my bad English it's not my main language.
I think that the Wraiths were once the citizens of Liurnia who worshipped the moon. I think that they were a normal people until the Shattering - because the Laskyar Ruins, where many of them are, have a portal that goes straight to the front gate of the academy. And because they're wraiths, perhaps they were the product of Liurnia's people being destroyed and tortured by the Cuckoos, but because no one can die and they're not being reborn in Erdtree Burial, they're being twisted by time and resentment into these pseudo-living dead who use the undeparted souls of their fellows in self-defense, like spells.
people keep saying no one can die in The Lands Between but that's entirely wrong. people die. there's no truth to the claim that there is no death in The Lands Between.
@@seratoxin3825 You can't just say shit without at least trying to back it up. Everything else in the game disagrees with you vehemently, so what's your argument?
@@jackreacher7495 lol no, everything in the game disagrees with YOU. all throughout the game, we see death. Lanya, Irina, Yura, Diallos, Alexander, Rogier, Ensha, etc., etc., etc. they all die scripted deaths. when you kill Radahn, Jerren even talks about his defeat explicitly as his DEATH. Gostoc talks about how Godrick "met his end". when you kill Ensha, Gideon says he's "dead and gone forevermore." anyone claiming there's no death in The Lands Between obviously never played the game.
The damage to Manus Celes looks more like an internal collapse due to neglect, rather than something hitting it from the outside. I think what makes the most sense is that the two fingers normally resided at this church, but when they sensed Ranni had the fingerslayer blade they burrowed into the ground to hide. It's weird though that the fingers have a cursemark carved into them. The cursemark is half of the eclipse, and as such wards of half of destined death.
The overgrowth could have happened before the stars began moving, and much of it remained or re-grew. Vines are pretty hardy plants, and as an open-world game with who knows how many day/night cycles occur canonically. Every sit at a grace or a return to the (magic/fake) roundtable hold takes like half a day. I like this theory, and so i've decided to subscribe to it. I had though Radahn wasn't too into Ranni's plan and was trying to thwart it before. I like the idea that he was supporting his sister to set her fate free from the Greater Will much better
I think the Fingers were hanging out in the Cathedral, like Miriel, but when Ranni & her dragon came knocking they tried hiding/digging their way to safety while Ranni chased them down and messed them up. I think their deformed shape is just a result of them dying/melting from the fingerslayer blade. There's always mention of her following "The Dark Path of the Empyrean", which is an odd thing to say about a caste of holy people meant to be elevated to godhood as Marika's successor. Judging by the massive ruins of the Grand Cloister, I think the "Dark path of the Empyrean" is more like a pilgrimage path an empyrean walks, deep underground, and up to the Cathedral of Manus Celes, (the Hand(s) of Star(s)/Fate?), to accept their position. But as Ranni is defying the FIngers that chose her, and intends to kill them, so she sends us through the Dark Path ourselves to distract the Fingers from her just flying in on a dragon. The only other Empyreans of the age are Malenia, who might've met the blind swordsman who mentored her on this path through the Lake of Rot, and Miquella, who maybe found & was inspired by the Nox below, the ancestral followers above in the ruined labyrinth (maybe an old part of the pilgrimage?), and the ancient dynast ruins of Uhl and Grand Cloister. Marika herself is a Numen empyrean of the old eternal cities. If the Church of Vows is a symbol of the unions of the house Radagon/Marika/Erdtree and Caria/Moon, maybe Manus Celes was a symbol of the union between the Ancient Dynast/tree worshipers, and the Numen of the Eternal Cities, tying themselves to the fates of the Stars/Hand/Fingers?
Manus Celes was probably a coronation ground for Ranni becoming an empyerian and chapel for the union with her consort. This would explain the similar architecture between it and the church of vows as they both bare iconography of both carian and golden order origin. If I'm correct then the moment you find Ranni with her fingers and bequeath the ring would be the intention of the cathedral finally coming into fruition, though not the way that was intended ofc.
Amazing video. Thank you for the content. I always thought the fingers where chilling in the church, and once we finish a point in the quest line, it dug its self there to hide from Ranni heance broken fingers and the tunnel being so different. idk just a random thought lol
From what I understand the shattering happened thousands of years before the player tarnished shows up. GRRM had stated as such in an interview. That means the night of the og murder would have been much earlier and could also be the reasoning behind the overgrowth. As for the cave, the fingers could have been trying to "retreat" from Ranni.
Okay so here's a minor to major theory: the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold aren't real. They're as illusory as the rest of the Hold. The Greater Will has indeed abandoned the world and the real Fingers, bereft of purpose, turn into wood in their proper place (they might not even be dead, just inactive and decayed). Marika, most likely, placed the fake Fingers in the fake Hold to guide the Tarnished to the Erdtree, so that one might realise the way is blocked and the world is trapped in stasis, and take the path of fire (Melina isn't strictly necessary here, all the Tarnished were supposed to have a Finger Maiden to point them in the right direction then serve as kindling, see Shabriri and Vyke). Once the Hold Fingers has got them to that point it locks up effectively indefinitely. Ranni's Fingers are different however. It was forced away somehow during Ranni's suicide, but did not die - Ranni discovers she needs the Fingerslayer blade to truly kill it and free herself. These Fingers retain a purpose - kill Ranni for her blasphemy - and burrow below Manus Celes, creating Baleful Shadows to guard itself and attack Ranni. It isn't until we kill the last of the Shadows that she feels safe enough to use her puppet body to finally slay the Fingers in its hiding place.
Maybe the fingers were already in the temple whenever it was initially hit by a star long ago? (An initial attempt to kill them before Radahn arrested the stars?) Perhaps it dug itself under ground afterwards to hide and defend itself and have remained there since.
Could it be possible Ranni's Two Fingers burrowed their way down there. The Cathedral could have been built as a symbol of Unification like the Church of Vows, and had Ranni's Two Fingers stationed there. Then after Ranni decided to split from the Two Fingers, she launched some sort of celestial attack on the cathedral. The Two Fingers burrowed underground to avoid it or Ranni realized that it wasn't enough and began the search for the Finger Slayer Blade. That could be why it's such a strange looking cave and why so much of the "hand" is exposed on them.
maybe ranni's 2 finger put up an magic barrier like maybe those found on the towers, and the only way to break them is to have a star crash through it. and the fingers then dig the hole trying to hide from ranni
"Manus Celes" being another way of saying "celestial hands" suggests, to me, that the cathedral was built for Ranni's Two Fingers. The Greater Will may have wanted to keep tabs on her and Radagon before he returned to Leyndell and married Marika, and setting up shop in Liurnia is the easiest way to do that. I've wondered why this one is so much bigger than the other Two Fingers we see around the world, either dead on the Divine Towers or still moving in the Roundtable Hold. Is there a special set of Two Fingers set aside specifically for all matters relating to Empyreans?
It seems to me that Manus Celes probably predates the Church of Vows, from a time when the Carians were at war or in a war-like posture (hence the swords). Either way, similarity in architecture isn't sufficient to conclude that both buildings were built for the same purpose, only that they were built by the same people.
I'll be honest I always just thought the fingers looked odd because they were facing the wall as if trying to claw their way out or flee. Plus all the other cursemark deaths are shown to be from behind as well.
The building was destroyed for a long gime, maybe during the Night of Black knives or when Radhan left Rennala. The hole to the fingers suggest it was made when Radhan died, just like the hole in Nokron. Thats why Ranni sent you to look for Nokron. To help Blaid find the Finger Slayer Blade and proceed with the plan to kill the Fingers. The Moon is obviously a seperate Ancient outer God that allows more free will than the Greater will.
Dude, look at the way Ranni’s fingers look and then compare them to the way the three fingers looks! They are jointed and shaped exactly the same! Plus you can clearly see there’s a part of the fingers that seems to be hidden underground. Like a third finger. It also explains why Blaidd went crazy instead of just turning on Ranni like any normal empyrean’s shadow would. (As they would have you believe anyway based on the lore descriptions). I’ve thought it since I first laid eyes on them.
Most likely this is where Ranni's Two Fingers has always been located, unless she moved them here a long time ago, since the hole and cave seems to be man made. Either way this is where her fingers were and where it's been operating against her. She knows of this location but needs the necessary weapon to kill her two fingers, which she does, so there can be no restrictions against her when she does what she does in her ending.
Perhaps the fingers were chilling uptop until the stars began to move, so then realizing they were in danger, they began digging their way underground. Maybe even trying to make it to the underground rivers to hide? Maybe they asked the Astel to protect them? Maybe even the dragon? Which would explain why their back is turned because they were mid dig, giving Ranni the perfect opportunity to finish them off. The frantic digging may be why the fingers are broken. Or maybe even the sudden release of pent up destiny and time warped them, but since Ranni occupies a doll, she was unnaffected. Renalla has basically given up, and would not have otherwise accomplished anything significant during the time that was frozen, so she too was unnaffected. Also weird though how it looks like there may be a third finger. My personal assumption is that the 3 fingers and 2 fingers were all one hand in the past, until they had a disagreement, or different opinions on how to interpret the greater will, or maybe even began listening to different outer gods, so they split. 2 and 3 makes five. Not having seen the other 2 fingers though, its hard to speculate. Further evidence, if you can call it that, is how you use fowled foot items. They have 3 toes, but you bite off one... perhaps there is something symbolic about losing a finger. Back on track though. The weird sense of a significant amount of time passing could once again be fate finally being released, and catching up so to speak. So what seems like days to us, may have actually been [however much time passes between radahn haulting the stars and us freeing them]. Ranni may have JUST killed her 2 fingers, but that pent up time rapidly passed leading to the start of decay, but not quite wood/pretrification yet. Also, since Ranni in a sense died before she killed her 2 fingers, they could have experienced a physical change when that connection was severed. Thats why I love elden ring, the little amount of lore and implications you string together only leads to more questions. Its too ambiguous to know for sure, but the evidence suggests any number of compelling possibilities.
I think the fingers look off cause we’re looking at the back of them. If you look at Ranni’s fingers and how they bend it very different compared to other fingers. The knuckles seem backwards like it was trying to climb it’s way out before ranni stab and killed it.
What I don't get more than anything is Astel's presence on the way to the "elevator" maybe when Ranni betrayed her two fingers Astel took them for himself, hence the blue hue and lack of hair. Making stuff up here but that could also explain the location of the fingers themselves; Astel dug the hole there knowing that the only way there was through him. Ranni might have simply flew her way up there with the dragon and the dragon stays by to protect her while she does the deal.
I like the idea that Manus Celes was the location of Ranni’s two fingers; she might have smote it with a falling star during her initial attempt to free her fate, but failed - she needed the fingerslayer blade. I need to go check the fallen rubble to see if it’s overgrown; it’s entirely possible the fallen rubble is new but the cathedral was long derelict.
I think she tried to kill it before too. She realized she couldn't through normal means and so moved the fingers to the cathedral. When in the timeline of events this all happened is hard to say.
Everytime something or someone "from the sky" fall of do something we get some starry place evwn underground, if ypu look at the tower walls for other fingers there is places in tge walls that looks like a dark space full of stars. This kinda imply that every finger are sent from the sky like the elden beast.
ZIOSTORM HEAR ME OUT: (spoilers ahead) What if Ranni and Melena are twins? One gifted with the Holy power that comes from faith, and the other with magical prowess? Melena is the real Founder of the Black Knives (that's why her Dagger has the same Ash of War: it's the original) and the super realistic "puppet" body that we see Ranni use is actually Melena's REAL body that she gave up for her sister. That Big-Hat guy made a puppet body for Ranni using Melena's own flesh ... That's why her face matches in the afterimage. because it IS her. Then, after losing a physical form, she lost her memory. Her mother, Queen Marika (WHO IS ALSO RADAGON), then bade her to burn the tree with her very spirit as kindling, for it was the only thing that could release the Queen's bonds. This bred hatred in Melena's spirit. And that hatred takes physical form as the Gloam Eyed Queen if you make her too mad (I.E. the Frenzy Flame ending. That's my theory LOL I'm sure there's holes, but what do you think???
The damage to the church, winding path and shards make more sense coming from a star born beast...like Astel. We have 3 or more of the star creatures in Liurnia, on the East side in the underground and then Astel over in the West.
I think manus celes was built before rennala and radagons marriage, as miriel says the church of vows combines designs from both sides but the window decor is only seen in manus celes (unless I’m mistaken) and the sinking of liurnia separating it from the “mainland” those fell into disrepair. Idk about the tunnel though
1 year ago today I took a leap of faith on Elden Ring, bought it on Steam as soon as it came out and couldn't let it go ...to all the day 1 players Happy Anniversary !
I think Ranni put the Two Fingers under that cathedral way back before or around the Shattering rather than in space.(not going to lie but I put had to reword this a few times because it just kind of came out naughty sounding) It is one of the most remote locations and extremely difficult to get to so no one from the Golden Order would be able to tamper with it. I think the disfigurement and discoloration of the Two Fingers is Ranni's doing, she messed it up really good with Frost Magic. I do think the Starlight Shards fell recently and actually have no bearing on events that happened there except maybe as a side effect of Ranni's spells. One thing that interests me is the village right below it. Maybe the Albinaurics served as caretakers and had a way up there but when the Shattering happened Ranni closed it off. It would make sense of why the village was wiped out because they couldn't help the Golden Order get up there to get the Two Fingers.
If the fingers were connected to the moon. Perhaps when radahn was holding the stars in place halting ranni's fate, he also halted the death of her fingers in the process. Not allowing her to completely untether from the fingers.
Alternative hypothesis: The church at the moonlight alter was exactly as the location suggests. A church to the moon. The Carian royals have strong ties to their moons. It would make sense that Rennala the Queen of the full moon would get married in a church of the moon. To show the moon's blessing of the union. And the church's original name would be lost to time as it would be then known for its ties to the union of Radagon and Renalla as the church of vows.
4:00 I disagree: this is the same dragon that guards Ranni's Rise and it will still attack you even there, right in front of Ranni, after you join up with Ranni. I believe that Ranni wants the dragon to attack the player to either stop them from pursuing her and/or to make sure the player is strong enough to defeat it.
So heres an important question to ask, how do other fingers get to their place. They appear to be bursting from the ground, but most located at the highest points of buildings, can they be moved, at they tied to the roots of the Erdtree, or are they actually shallow and fell just as you surmise? So heres an idea, as another commenter has pointed out, the Fingers and their palm appear to be pointed away. Now one might assume it was Ranni who moved the fingers but how. I have to assume that the Fingers were there, the hole might even be where they stood. However regardless is they were in the cathedral originally or not, theres one simple explanation to multiple mysteries here, the fingers themselves dug the hole. It explains why it wind down in sporadic directions, why the fingers are completely mangled, and why they're so proactive about stopping you an Ranni. This desperate attempt to hide fits its MO of road blocking and resisting Ranni. Of all the demigods, she presented the strongest will to resist their fate, so perhaps even Radahn's fight to protect the Golden Order by arresting the stars was an influential bid by the two fingers to stop Ranni. Its a level of intervention thats only given to her, so the sheer terror they feel, knowing shes gone as far all killing her physical form, they tried their hardest to hide. The destruction of the cathedral is Ranni's influence, the stars crashed down to destroy the fingers. Perhaps that incident is the very thing that alerted them to arrest the stars.
I think most of the visual signifiers tell us they did crash down there some time ago. As for weird tunnel, I always thought they tried crawling away? Would explain why they look so sickly, even tho they have only been stabbed recently. It doesnt seem to me that the space idea is at all ridiculous, because the space is a constant theme in the game, especially when talking about the Greater Will and Carians. The only real issue is the timing, where were they before they crashed, when did they crash and who did that (which must have happened some time ago because of the moss, mushrooms and all of that) Their role in the story is also different because Ranni is different from most of people in the game, she is an Empyrian and is (supposed to) be directly controlled by them and the Greater Will, in this terms Tarnished have much more freedom in this world than she evenr did.
I think the fingers crashed farther back than most people realize, remmeber, behfore Rahdahn held up the stars, they were more or less free to do as they wanted. I think her 2 fingers crashed long ago, but Ranni didn't have the means to kill them until of course, she got the finger slayer blade. Which from where we come into the series, seems like decades, or maybe hundreds of years after the shattering. Which would explain the overgrowth. the third-half limb i can't really explain though, except for the possibility that in the past that maybe the 3 fingers was a different entitiy, (With no proof) Or has two sides, the darkmoon and the Sun or somtehing. And flame of frezny being the representation of the sun, and the darkmoon just being another side of it, as it reflects the suns light.
could be that once an empyrean was born, the greater will sent the two fingers to govern them, they crash land in to a spot where they then build a cathedral for them
Probably others have the same thought, but what if Ranni’s two fingers, giggity, were “stored” underground, and needed a meteor to break the ground to them?
I think they came from space... just not recently. As for the hole, maybe they burrowed trying to run from Ranni after she obtained the finger slayer blade? that doesn't work with the mushrooms, though.
I would think that the cathedral predates the church of vows, the larger original. what you did make me realize though is where the bishop is. A cathedral has bishops, whereas churches are more general, so why is the turtle bishop at the church of vows and not his cathedral? Was he simply chased out or did it become less important than the church of vows
I'd assumed all the Fingers came from space long ago, whenever the primeval rain of stars occurred. The other fingers in the divine towers sit on top of meteor chunks like the ones you see under the fallenstar beasts, and "manus celes" translates roughly to "heavenly hand." I assume this is where some Carian ancestor (Renna??) called down the rain of stars from their vision. This...er...this theory has problems - were the divine towers already there and the fingers just happened to crash into them? If so did Ranni's fingers "miss?" Highly speculative, but here goes nothing: The Founding Rain of Stars wrecked Farum Azula and maimed Placidusax's lost god. Her hand fell to earth in two parts - the larger part of the hand smashing into the great tree, and the two fingers crashing into Manus Celes. This rain of stars also brought all other kinds of new life including Astel, and maybe even The Elden Beast. As Lands Between Natives continued their various factional wars the Three Fingers came to host a vengeful version of the giants' fire god after his defeat. The Two Fingers, originally revered in Manus Celes, were eventually appropriated by Radagon and clippings were "planted" or "grafted" in the pre-existing divine towers, as tools of the erdtree/Greater Will. They now make up part of the root system of the tree, and (Again I know I'm way off the reservation here), the surveillance network for the Divine Beast. It does seem like the Two Fingers era of the Erdtree comes with Radagon's ascendancy and the birth of the Golden Order - fairly late in the game's history timeline. They're also associated with secrets and surveillance. This explicitly puts the Divine Beast at odds with Ranni - the Beast using the vast surveillance network provided by multiple two fingers to hunt her, and her avoiding detection until she can murder its spies.
I don't think the church of vows or the cathedral were built specifically for radagon and rennas marriage - the church only became known for it afterwards. The architecture of both and the statues match the other "Saint statues" that we see on devine bridges and towers - predating radagon. That and we know that rennas power came from the full moon, allowing her to become the first queen of raya lucaria. So I it could make sense for there to be a cathedral to the moon here, now in ruin since rennas fall. Otherwise the age of the cathedral and architecture make me think it could even be related to the Nox, whose eternal cities used to lie on the surface and who were also moon and star worshipers.
Maybe Ranni wanted the curse mark of death not just for removing herself physically from the golden order but to remove her connection to the fingers as well. We’ve seen across the lands between with other demigods and their fingers what happens when they just disregard the existence or go down a non-golden order path. I wouldn’t be surprised if we got info that when she received the cursemark, it did something to the fingers assigned to her as well. It also could be she killed the fingers herself, anybody’s guess now tbh. Aside from a Miquella dlc, I’d love a dlc where we could go back in time to the era of the golden order before the night of the black knives and go through the story until that night to learn more about the past.
I am pretty sure the church got destroyed and hole got drilled by astel crash landing. The two fingers just seem to have been there for a while. Perhaps they are the reason that temple was built in the first place.
I would believe that either ranni was holding her two fingers hostage..... or her fingers were in hiding from her. and with the killing of radahn is set in motion the power that ranni was summoning to get into nokron and retrieve the weapon to to kill her fingers. and then she set an assault on the place the two fingers was at when she was ready.
Always quality content! That's the reason I have subbed! Can't wait for the day when I open this app and your video called "Elden Ring DLC leaked" pops up!:)
Great topic! one of the most misterious places in the game indeed. Im afraid I dont really see the conection between the church of vows and Manus Celes. What makes the church of vows important is that the door points to the Erdtree and the altar to the academy, enhancing the purpose of the church itself, and the name of the church refers to the vow Radagon does to the Carian family. Manus Celes has none of these characteristics. It looks sideways to both the tree and the academy, and the name, as the video mentions, talks about a celestial hand, which has nothing to do with Radagon or Rennala. I think the video is missing the only link in between the 2, the architecture, which is common with the eternal cities (gothic cathedrals). The church of vows has Eternal Cities statues, and to get to the area where Manus Celes is you have to go through another Eternal city. We agree on the point that Manus Celes looks too weathered and covered in vegetation to be recently broken, that has to had happened some time ago. And the hole to the cave where the 2 fingers are is definitely more recent than the construction of the cathedral, as it goes through the tiles on the floor. And I dont think the fingers fell from the stars due to Radhans death, that tunel as the video points out, isnt straight, is not a result of a falling star in my opinion. I also agree those 2 fingers in the tunel are Rannis 2 fingers, the ones missing from her tower. But then, who are the 2 fingers in the round table assingned to? Too many misteries XD
🎵Space Fingers! They fell from space. Space Fingers! They wrecked this old place. Space Fingers! They're coming for you! Space Fingers! Kill 'em and praise the moon!!!🎶
Maybe they didn't find a way to send the fingers of Ranni into the moon so someone tried to hide it underground under the church (still accessible through a kind of hidden hole in the mountain after all). Maybe they could send it, but they wished to keep it in the Lands Between for a self defense reason or something. The random path to the underground is maybe someone who tried to uncover it, just like when you search for something lost into the sand or snow. Anyway, pretty damn good video, not far from VaatiVidya quality in term of infos.
I think Ranni's two fingers, if they were held in the stars, maybe they retained their consciousness. A sort of mind in stasis effect. While the other two fingers have been standing around, witnessing the eternal cycles of the lands between and have grown senile.
Since killing Radhan allows one to put fate back on time, they could have crashed with the stars and their time moved on a lot more, hence the mushroom and vegetation. (even if for us it seems like a blink of an eye). Then, since their fate was once again moving along, they got killed by ranni.
one thing that bugs me is why her fingers are down there instead of being at the top of her tower, maybe she moved them before the night of black knives sense at she had planned the whole thing and Radhan wasn't insane at the moment.
So they're mushrooms from space, then? I want to know why both the Fingerslayer Blade and the Sacred Relic Sword are both made from bodies. What's the connection between Ranni and the Elden Beast both wielding weapons with that specific attribute?
Rannis two fingers were probably the ones that were attached to the 3 fingers as the one great. Night of black knives separates the order from the chaos. The shattering split the 2 fingers into multiple 2 fingers but didn't kill them since the rune of death was no longer a part of the elden ring and got sealed away. Rannis 2 fingers is the original, all others are just fragments of the original. The three fingers never split because it was already separated from the elden ring as a result of the night of black knives. The three ancient dragons got separated from plucidisax at the same time creating a parallel between the one great and the dragon lord but the ancient dragons were sentient enough to not plunge into chaos as the fingers did. The one great taking the form of 5 fingers probably had something to do with the defeat of the fire giants since their hands were cut off as a result of their defeat
One of the ancient dragons attacked landell. One protected it. And the other was protecting at the roots at the deeproot depths where the deathblight started. While plucidisax got lost in time presumably unable to achieve death
So when I finally reached this area, there were fingers EVERYWHERE in that ruin. I wanna say by every star shared was a set of fingers against a wall, on the ground or in a corner.
@ziostorm is it not logical to presume, at least as a counterpoint to your theory, that is was Astel who crash landed into Manus Celes and not Ranni's two fingers? Then it burrowed far deep underground (supported by the winding tunnel) and some natural cave-in simply blocked the rest of its path to where we fight it. Astel is proven in the lore to come from the stars. Speculate as you will as to what this would ultimately mean and forgive me if someone else has brought this up.
Ranni's two fingers look like they grew inside the hole / cave, like there was no room to grow. Maybe the fingers are a fungus? I think there was a video about them being a fungi.
Is it for certain the churches were built to honor the union? Miriel says 'how it came to be known as the Church of vows'. Or something along those lines. Since we use celestial dew in the church of vows, linking it to the eternal city, and astel now blocks the way to manus celes, maybe the church of vows is a building built by or with ties to the eternal city that was repurposed by radagon and renalla and had been maintained better than manus? Also, is there a chance rannis fingers were distorted by her killing her body but not her soul? Could explain why they take on the same colour as her.
IDK how cannon this is, but I checked and Ranni and the two fingers are loaded into their places as soon as you start the game. No questline or items necessary. And you can interact with her as if you had completed all her quests.
Great video! Was wondering no post from elden ring official twitter today…does that mean possibly they’re saving something big for this weekend?? I hope!!
Maybe the reason for Ranni's Fingers being so distorted is the usage of the power of the Rune of Death to kill it. I mean, look at what it did to Godwyn.
Ranni taking inspiration from the Fingerslayer Blade to make the Black Knives isn't impossible, given that she already knows about its existance in advance, and I imagine she would be in good terms with the Nox.
That's been my read on it the whole time as well. Twisted in the same way, and the scar even has the centipede whorl look to it.
Ranni probably took inspiration for the black knives from the finger slaying blade we retrieve from Nokron
problem with that theory is the reason Godwyn is so distorted is because he isnt dead. the soul is dead but the body lives and the living corpse squirms to grow and conquer as if its a plant made of skin, muscle, and bone hence the body horror we behold
ranni's fingers are dead, like just out-and-out dead. no pseudo-death event going on there so outside of a few 'joints' possibly being broken bones there no real explanation for the apparent thumb that appears to be there
She was in good terms with the Nox, up until the Tarnished stole the Fingerslayer Blade in Nokron, because by the end of her questline we see the bodies of Black Knife Assassins near Blaidd and Iji.
@@mmyr8ado.360 those werent real Black Knife Assassins, they were only pretending to be thats why their flames were black and white instead of black and red. those were godskin assassins
Adula is probably there to keep the fingers in place.
There was clearly a back exit to the hole. The tunnel was probably an attempt to escape the cathedral. But with a dragon keeping watch, the fingers ended up stuck there.
Which means it was already there well before Radahn's death.
I think the whole cathedral might relate to some failed plot of Ranni's. My guess is an earlier failed attempt to kill the fingers.
I'm not sure why that necessitated building a cathedral for them. But there's a lot here that we're missing.
My guess, she tried dropping a baby Astel on the fingers and that's why there's a hole in the building and the fingers look kinda mangled.
I think Ranni's fingers descended long ago before the shattering and the night of Black Knives. I suspect they became significantly distorted after Ranni shed her Empyrean body as they were directly link to it and Ranni.
The key aspect of killing Radahn was freeing Ranni's fate which is what finally allowed Ranni to use the Finger slayer blade, which notably can only be wielded by someone with a fate.
Thought: Ranni's Two Fingers are the only real Two Fingers, and the others are all constructs/avatars/puppets it speaks through. It would explain why such a sacred being was so exposed on the towers and in the Roundtable Hold when all other divine figures are hidden away (answer is they weren't, they were always hidden underground). And it'd explain why the others look like wooden, moldering constructs while these are fleshy and alive.
That actually makes me curious. There's a point where the two fingers at the round table fall silent and enter an almost dormant state. If this event triggers after Ranni has killed her two fingers, then it may confirm your theory.
@@Desimor I believe the roundtable fingers ignore you after you ignite the erdtree
@@comeatme6ro413 That makes more sense. Which means this theory may not hold water.
@come at me 6ro Not ignore you but contact the Greater Will to figure out what the Hell to do, this takes years.
@@Desimor That happens after you find out that the Erdtree is sealed off.
I think the two fingers were there a long time before Radhan was killed. One has to wonder then why they were in such a hidden and inaccessible place and I think they were there because they were hiding from Ranni. So when the stars started moving again they not only showed us the way to Nokron but by falling on Manus Celes they helped Ranni to find the location where the two fingers were hiding.
It’s also possible she wasn’t able to kill them without the finger slayer blade.
@@Letwoo67 I think this is correct. The item's description says it allows to sever a connection with the Greater Will, so it makes sense that Ranni kills her Two Fingers only after getting the item. I also think this is the moment where the Greater Will enforces Blaidd's curse, making him go mad.
I agree with you, as the Fingers look firmly planted in those rocks,as it they’d been growing there for a long time.
This theory (the fingers were hiding from Ranni) also matches the name of the location.
Manus Celes is Latin for “secret hand” or “hidden hand”.
That and with Fate literally being held in stand still by Radahn, neither side could be able to win just like how all the demigods are in a stalemate.
While we're used to broad caves in games, IRL caves often twist and turn in all three dimensions- a lot like the one the fingers are in. It could be that these two have been hidden here for a long time!
It might make sense if Ranni being an Empyrean had something to do with her two fingers being weird, but the ones in the Isolated Divine Tower are for Malenia (probably for her and Miquella) so that goes out the window. Maybe it could be that all the others died, but Ranni's were able to live for longer?
Also, one thing that might discount the fingers crashing into Manus Celes during the events of the game is whether the model of the church as seen from outside the Moonlight Altar is dynamic. Clearly the model in Moonlight Altar is fixed, since the Two Fingers are dead with Ranni on them regardless of whether you've progressed anything; the game just doesn't think you'll be able to get there without the questline.
Most likely, that entire part of the map is where Renalla took Ranni to meet her own moon. Ranni having this meeting made her more qualified to be an Empyrean, with or without flesh as she had a source for her own order and would even confirm she has one. Manus Celeste was likely the heart most root to those of the moon orders, in turn in wedding with Radagon it would be disingenuous to not incorporate it with the Church of Vows. Before she was queen of Caria, Rennala found her full moon and dazzled what's now Raya Lucaria with it into its place as ruler, suggesting two separate lives for her. All around Manus Celeste if we still had any doubts, are multiple ruins suggesting a people of the moon. and sorcerers who can fade around like Ranni can. Radagon marrying Rennala, it would be weird if she kept secrets from him. Radagon seeing first hand Carian faith being one with its brilliance would only take inspiration further of the concepts of union which would one day reach his son Miquella, who would further the concepts with his own contagious shine.
i absolutely just love how this game makes you feel like you’re entering an entirely different world filled with secrets and wonders whenever we went underground. Great vid, Hope you hit 100k soon😁
In other news: 20 million Elden Ring copies sold! Let's goooo!!!!
With how all the fingers atop the Divine Towers seem to be wooden, yet the one’s in Roundtable Hold and Manus Celes seem to be flesh, its possible that the wooden ones are puppets of sorts. Perhaps the real fingers exist below the ground, or are in some way obscured. Maybe Ranni killed or destroyed the one atop the Liurnian Divine Tower, but knew or learned that the real two fingers she was bound to were elsewhere. As to why she would destroy the puppet? Maybe because she wanted to hide her discarded body there, and leaving them behind presented the possibility of the Two fingers locating it, or maybe it was just an act of defiance.
(I was going to suggest that it could also have to do with Ranni being an Empyrean, but Malenia’s tower still has a pair and if Miquella shares the tower with her like Morgott and Mohg do, its likely a feature unique to Ranni’s tower.)
As for the Three fingers theory for Ranni’s fingers, Zullie made a video covering it. The model has no third finger and is likely intended to be vague.
Because of the mushrooms down in the hole, it was my impression that they fingers had been there for a while, but maybe the hole itself wasn't. Like the fingers were buried under the cathedral anticipating Ranni's betrayal of the Golden Order. Then when we beat Radan, a meteor or something crashes into the cathedral and that reveals the location of her TF.
My best take for the cathedral itself:
since the statues hold swords that (at least at a glance) look kind of familiar to the great swords the carian queens use as a betrothal gift, maybe this was, were weddings took place. Would fit with the game since we're basically going there to put a ring on our blue god-wife to be.
as for it's state, I can and want to believe that it was destroyed by falling stars, just long before the start of the game, maybe about the same rough timeframe Radagon left Renalla. I find it hard to believe that ranni spaced her fingers to be free of their influence without anyone objecting to it and then crash them into a cathedral and murder them for good measure. I think she did hid them there, basically holding them hostage to perform her ritual atop her tower. Later on near the end of her quest I think she comes back to them to kill them and completely free herself of their influence, which is why they look relatively fresh as opposed to any other pair we find.
Ranni's ending sets everyone essentially free of the golden order while she goes on that star-searching journey or whatever, something she would not have been able to do while under their influence, on the other hand, killing them while the order is still in relatively full power would've just marked her as a traitor to it.
as for how that hole came to be... if we're not gonna question how the gigantic star-skull scorpions from space that shoot meteors by opening portals to the void are always and only found deep underground whiel their larvae state is found in craters (and one mine), so let's also not question as to how that hole exactly formed. I can believe that it was originally a crater from whatever destroyed the place and ranni just dug up a little more to have a proper place to hide her fingers, I don't see them climbing out of there anytime soon and no one sane jumping down there to look, especially with to door-dragon set to "attack on sight". They being down their for a while would make sense with the surrounding flora in the last chamber.
Tl;Dr: Cathedral was maybe a place for royal weddings, was destroyed way before the game, fingers were hid there to not incriminate ranni, she came back to kill them after we are basically done with her whole plan. She did not plan for us to come here after all
What happens if you visit Manus Celes prior to Radan's death? IDK if there's a way to get up there without a no-clip hack though.
was thinking the same thing👍
I don't believe its possible without clipping
@@Ziostorm Thats one very important fact for your crash landing theory, if the only way to get to manus celes is through rannis quest and the balefull shadow appearing only when you ve progressed through ansel river which is the next location for rannis questline:)
@@Ziostorm I found a video where a guy abuses the stake of Marika at the top of the plateau to get up there early. Dies in the range of it due to poison and it revived him on top prior to Radan's death.
It's all the same and you can even give Ranni the ring before having it physically because there's no requirement to actually have the item. You can just trigger the ending of her quest immediately.
The finger slaying blade looks very similar to the sacred relic sword, especially the hand guard which is basically Radagons torso
I’m not an expert when it comes to lore but what I got out of this video is maybe the cathedral got destroyed over time from the dragon defending it. Or maybe something tried to stop Ranni from killing the two fingers but they were underground and couldn’t get to her in time. Love your videos I’m glad I found your channel.
I always liked how the finger slayer blade kinda has the shape of the black knife of death as well. both are linked to ranni so it's fitting
I just realized that although Seluvis made a completely identical doll body for Sellen, Ranni's doll body is nothing like that. Ranni has a very obvious, doll-like, four-armed doll body. I wonder why she didn't have Seluvis create a new body that resembled her original one, or at least create a doll that was not blue and four armed.
In his video, "What it takes to become an Empyrian" (Amazing video btw), The Tarnished Archeologist speculates that Ranni was arranged to be married to Godwyn. If we follow that thread, and given the Church of Vows was built to conduct and honor the union of Rennala and Radagon, what if the church of Manus Celes was built in anticipation of Ranni and Godwyn's marriage? It exists as a reminder of her duty decided for her by the Fingers and the Golden Order. With that purpose in mind, it makes sense she would block off the entrance until a potential consort came along- one that _she_ would choose.
I have a few ideas. I think that the cathedral of Manus Celes was built in honor of Rennala while the Church of Vows was built for Radagon. Maybe Manus was built by the Carian royal family and Ranni took the opportunity to hide her two fingers beneath the cathedral. I also believe that the reason why Ranni's fingers look different, is because her fingers aren't tied to the greater will like our two fingers. We see the two fingers in the round table hold stick straight up after we burn the tree, though I can't remember exactly how or when they do this, but when we enter Placidusax's boss arena, we see him holding a similar pose. My theory is that both are either communing with their respective gods, or trying to commune. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of moon or star deity that communicated to Ranni through her unique two fingers. We know for a fact that there are multiple different fingers, so it's possible that Ranni's two fingers were either made by a different outer god or if they were taken over by it. Did it get taken over because of Ranni's actions away from the greater will? It's also entirely possible that her fingers got so messed up as a result of Ranni's body's death. I don't know how linked the two fingers are to demigods or empyreans, so it's entirely possible that the night of black knives physical twisted Ranni's two fingers.
For player perspective killing Radahn was recent but maybe in game years pased.Maybe our journey was century long cuz tarnished cannot get old or die.Sry for my bad English it's not my main language.
I think that the Wraiths were once the citizens of Liurnia who worshipped the moon. I think that they were a normal people until the Shattering - because the Laskyar Ruins, where many of them are, have a portal that goes straight to the front gate of the academy.
And because they're wraiths, perhaps they were the product of Liurnia's people being destroyed and tortured by the Cuckoos, but because no one can die and they're not being reborn in Erdtree Burial, they're being twisted by time and resentment into these pseudo-living dead who use the undeparted souls of their fellows in self-defense, like spells.
people keep saying no one can die in The Lands Between but that's entirely wrong. people die. there's no truth to the claim that there is no death in The Lands Between.
@@seratoxin3825 You can't just say shit without at least trying to back it up. Everything else in the game disagrees with you vehemently, so what's your argument?
@@seratoxin3825death as a concept is varied in the lands between. There's destined death, true death and death blight
@@jackreacher7495 lol no, everything in the game disagrees with YOU. all throughout the game, we see death. Lanya, Irina, Yura, Diallos, Alexander, Rogier, Ensha, etc., etc., etc. they all die scripted deaths. when you kill Radahn, Jerren even talks about his defeat explicitly as his DEATH. Gostoc talks about how Godrick "met his end". when you kill Ensha, Gideon says he's "dead and gone forevermore."
anyone claiming there's no death in The Lands Between obviously never played the game.
@@antonironstag5085 yes but to say "people can't die" is just absurd and objectively wrong
The damage to Manus Celes looks more like an internal collapse due to neglect, rather than something hitting it from the outside.
I think what makes the most sense is that the two fingers normally resided at this church, but when they sensed Ranni had the fingerslayer blade they burrowed into the ground to hide.
It's weird though that the fingers have a cursemark carved into them. The cursemark is half of the eclipse, and as such wards of half of destined death.
The overgrowth could have happened before the stars began moving, and much of it remained or re-grew. Vines are pretty hardy plants, and as an open-world game with who knows how many day/night cycles occur canonically. Every sit at a grace or a return to the (magic/fake) roundtable hold takes like half a day. I like this theory, and so i've decided to subscribe to it.
I had though Radahn wasn't too into Ranni's plan and was trying to thwart it before. I like the idea that he was supporting his sister to set her fate free from the Greater Will much better
I think the Fingers were hanging out in the Cathedral, like Miriel, but when Ranni & her dragon came knocking they tried hiding/digging their way to safety while Ranni chased them down and messed them up. I think their deformed shape is just a result of them dying/melting from the fingerslayer blade.
There's always mention of her following "The Dark Path of the Empyrean", which is an odd thing to say about a caste of holy people meant to be elevated to godhood as Marika's successor. Judging by the massive ruins of the Grand Cloister, I think the "Dark path of the Empyrean" is more like a pilgrimage path an empyrean walks, deep underground, and up to the Cathedral of Manus Celes, (the Hand(s) of Star(s)/Fate?), to accept their position. But as Ranni is defying the FIngers that chose her, and intends to kill them, so she sends us through the Dark Path ourselves to distract the Fingers from her just flying in on a dragon.
The only other Empyreans of the age are Malenia, who might've met the blind swordsman who mentored her on this path through the Lake of Rot, and Miquella, who maybe found & was inspired by the Nox below, the ancestral followers above in the ruined labyrinth (maybe an old part of the pilgrimage?), and the ancient dynast ruins of Uhl and Grand Cloister.
Marika herself is a Numen empyrean of the old eternal cities. If the Church of Vows is a symbol of the unions of the house Radagon/Marika/Erdtree and Caria/Moon, maybe Manus Celes was a symbol of the union between the Ancient Dynast/tree worshipers, and the Numen of the Eternal Cities, tying themselves to the fates of the Stars/Hand/Fingers?
Manus Celes was probably a coronation ground for Ranni becoming an empyerian and chapel for the union with her consort. This would explain the similar architecture between it and the church of vows as they both bare iconography of both carian and golden order origin. If I'm correct then the moment you find Ranni with her fingers and bequeath the ring would be the intention of the cathedral finally coming into fruition, though not the way that was intended ofc.
how Metroid prime music fits so well in a medieval rpg is astonishing
Amazing video. Thank you for the content. I always thought the fingers where chilling in the church, and once we finish a point in the quest line, it dug its self there to hide from Ranni heance broken fingers and the tunnel being so different. idk just a random thought lol
From what I understand the shattering happened thousands of years before the player tarnished shows up. GRRM had stated as such in an interview. That means the night of the og murder would have been much earlier and could also be the reasoning behind the overgrowth. As for the cave, the fingers could have been trying to "retreat" from Ranni.
Okay so here's a minor to major theory: the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold aren't real. They're as illusory as the rest of the Hold. The Greater Will has indeed abandoned the world and the real Fingers, bereft of purpose, turn into wood in their proper place (they might not even be dead, just inactive and decayed). Marika, most likely, placed the fake Fingers in the fake Hold to guide the Tarnished to the Erdtree, so that one might realise the way is blocked and the world is trapped in stasis, and take the path of fire (Melina isn't strictly necessary here, all the Tarnished were supposed to have a Finger Maiden to point them in the right direction then serve as kindling, see Shabriri and Vyke). Once the Hold Fingers has got them to that point it locks up effectively indefinitely.
Ranni's Fingers are different however. It was forced away somehow during Ranni's suicide, but did not die - Ranni discovers she needs the Fingerslayer blade to truly kill it and free herself. These Fingers retain a purpose - kill Ranni for her blasphemy - and burrow below Manus Celes, creating Baleful Shadows to guard itself and attack Ranni. It isn't until we kill the last of the Shadows that she feels safe enough to use her puppet body to finally slay the Fingers in its hiding place.
Maybe the fingers were already in the temple whenever it was initially hit by a star long ago? (An initial attempt to kill them before Radahn arrested the stars?) Perhaps it dug itself under ground afterwards to hide and defend itself and have remained there since.
Could it be possible Ranni's Two Fingers burrowed their way down there. The Cathedral could have been built as a symbol of Unification like the Church of Vows, and had Ranni's Two Fingers stationed there. Then after Ranni decided to split from the Two Fingers, she launched some sort of celestial attack on the cathedral. The Two Fingers burrowed underground to avoid it or Ranni realized that it wasn't enough and began the search for the Finger Slayer Blade. That could be why it's such a strange looking cave and why so much of the "hand" is exposed on them.
maybe ranni's 2 finger put up an magic barrier like maybe those found on the towers, and the only way to break them is to have a star crash through it. and the fingers then dig the hole trying to hide from ranni
ranni actually eating those shrooms to directly communicate to the outer gods.
"Manus Celes" being another way of saying "celestial hands" suggests, to me, that the cathedral was built for Ranni's Two Fingers. The Greater Will may have wanted to keep tabs on her and Radagon before he returned to Leyndell and married Marika, and setting up shop in Liurnia is the easiest way to do that.
I've wondered why this one is so much bigger than the other Two Fingers we see around the world, either dead on the Divine Towers or still moving in the Roundtable Hold. Is there a special set of Two Fingers set aside specifically for all matters relating to Empyreans?
Those giant pillars of light seem important. Maybe giant starlight shards?
It seems to me that Manus Celes probably predates the Church of Vows, from a time when the Carians were at war or in a war-like posture (hence the swords).
Either way, similarity in architecture isn't sufficient to conclude that both buildings were built for the same purpose, only that they were built by the same people.
I'll be honest I always just thought the fingers looked odd because they were facing the wall as if trying to claw their way out or flee. Plus all the other cursemark deaths are shown to be from behind as well.
Maybe it wiggled it’s way after crashing and started digging with its fingers to make the cave, it’s broken like joints can be from the digging.
The building was destroyed for a long gime, maybe during the Night of Black knives or when Radhan left Rennala. The hole to the fingers suggest it was made when Radhan died, just like the hole in Nokron. Thats why Ranni sent you to look for Nokron. To help Blaid find the Finger Slayer Blade and proceed with the plan to kill the Fingers. The Moon is obviously a seperate Ancient outer God that allows more free will than the Greater will.
Dude, look at the way Ranni’s fingers look and then compare them to the way the three fingers looks! They are jointed and shaped exactly the same! Plus you can clearly see there’s a part of the fingers that seems to be hidden underground. Like a third finger. It also explains why Blaidd went crazy instead of just turning on Ranni like any normal empyrean’s shadow would. (As they would have you believe anyway based on the lore descriptions). I’ve thought it since I first laid eyes on them.
I had exactly the same thought, because the cathedrale is full with starlight shards that crashed down the same way!
Most likely this is where Ranni's Two Fingers has always been located, unless she moved them here a long time ago, since the hole and cave seems to be man made. Either way this is where her fingers were and where it's been operating against her. She knows of this location but needs the necessary weapon to kill her two fingers, which she does, so there can be no restrictions against her when she does what she does in her ending.
Perhaps the fingers were chilling uptop until the stars began to move, so then realizing they were in danger, they began digging their way underground. Maybe even trying to make it to the underground rivers to hide? Maybe they asked the Astel to protect them? Maybe even the dragon? Which would explain why their back is turned because they were mid dig, giving Ranni the perfect opportunity to finish them off. The frantic digging may be why the fingers are broken. Or maybe even the sudden release of pent up destiny and time warped them, but since Ranni occupies a doll, she was unnaffected. Renalla has basically given up, and would not have otherwise accomplished anything significant during the time that was frozen, so she too was unnaffected.
Also weird though how it looks like there may be a third finger. My personal assumption is that the 3 fingers and 2 fingers were all one hand in the past, until they had a disagreement, or different opinions on how to interpret the greater will, or maybe even began listening to different outer gods, so they split. 2 and 3 makes five. Not having seen the other 2 fingers though, its hard to speculate. Further evidence, if you can call it that, is how you use fowled foot items. They have 3 toes, but you bite off one... perhaps there is something symbolic about losing a finger.
Back on track though. The weird sense of a significant amount of time passing could once again be fate finally being released, and catching up so to speak. So what seems like days to us, may have actually been [however much time passes between radahn haulting the stars and us freeing them]. Ranni may have JUST killed her 2 fingers, but that pent up time rapidly passed leading to the start of decay, but not quite wood/pretrification yet. Also, since Ranni in a sense died before she killed her 2 fingers, they could have experienced a physical change when that connection was severed.
Thats why I love elden ring, the little amount of lore and implications you string together only leads to more questions. Its too ambiguous to know for sure, but the evidence suggests any number of compelling possibilities.
I think the fingers look off cause we’re looking at the back of them. If you look at Ranni’s fingers and how they bend it very different compared to other fingers. The knuckles seem backwards like it was trying to climb it’s way out before ranni stab and killed it.
What I don't get more than anything is Astel's presence on the way to the "elevator" maybe when Ranni betrayed her two fingers Astel took them for himself, hence the blue hue and lack of hair. Making stuff up here but that could also explain the location of the fingers themselves; Astel dug the hole there knowing that the only way there was through him. Ranni might have simply flew her way up there with the dragon and the dragon stays by to protect her while she does the deal.
I like the idea that Manus Celes was the location of Ranni’s two fingers; she might have smote it with a falling star during her initial attempt to free her fate, but failed - she needed the fingerslayer blade. I need to go check the fallen rubble to see if it’s overgrown; it’s entirely possible the fallen rubble is new but the cathedral was long derelict.
I think she tried to kill it before too.
She realized she couldn't through normal means and so moved the fingers to the cathedral.
When in the timeline of events this all happened is hard to say.
Everytime something or someone "from the sky" fall of do something we get some starry place evwn underground, if ypu look at the tower walls for other fingers there is places in tge walls that looks like a dark space full of stars. This kinda imply that every finger are sent from the sky like the elden beast.
ZIOSTORM HEAR ME OUT:
(spoilers ahead)
What if Ranni and Melena are twins? One gifted with the Holy power that comes from faith, and the other with magical prowess? Melena is the real Founder of the Black Knives (that's why her Dagger has the same Ash of War: it's the original) and the super realistic "puppet" body that we see Ranni use is actually Melena's REAL body that she gave up for her sister. That Big-Hat guy made a puppet body for Ranni using Melena's own flesh ... That's why her face matches in the afterimage. because it IS her. Then, after losing a physical form, she lost her memory. Her mother, Queen Marika (WHO IS ALSO RADAGON), then bade her to burn the tree with her very spirit as kindling, for it was the only thing that could release the Queen's bonds. This bred hatred in Melena's spirit. And that hatred takes physical form as the Gloam Eyed Queen if you make her too mad (I.E. the Frenzy Flame ending.
That's my theory LOL I'm sure there's holes, but what do you think???
"Do the dishes, or plunge the world into chaos? Very difficult choice."
The damage to the church, winding path and shards make more sense coming from a star born beast...like Astel. We have 3 or more of the star creatures in Liurnia, on the East side in the underground and then Astel over in the West.
Another link: you meet the turtle pope in the church of vows, and there are three huge spirit turtles up there.
I think manus celes was built before rennala and radagons marriage, as miriel says the church of vows combines designs from both sides but the window decor is only seen in manus celes (unless I’m mistaken) and the sinking of liurnia separating it from the “mainland” those fell into disrepair. Idk about the tunnel though
1 year ago today I took a leap of faith on Elden Ring, bought it on Steam as soon as it came out and couldn't let it go ...to all the day 1 players Happy Anniversary !
I think Ranni put the Two Fingers under that cathedral way back before or around the Shattering rather than in space.(not going to lie but I put had to reword this a few times because it just kind of came out naughty sounding) It is one of the most remote locations and extremely difficult to get to so no one from the Golden Order would be able to tamper with it. I think the disfigurement and discoloration of the Two Fingers is Ranni's doing, she messed it up really good with Frost Magic. I do think the Starlight Shards fell recently and actually have no bearing on events that happened there except maybe as a side effect of Ranni's spells. One thing that interests me is the village right below it. Maybe the Albinaurics served as caretakers and had a way up there but when the Shattering happened Ranni closed it off. It would make sense of why the village was wiped out because they couldn't help the Golden Order get up there to get the Two Fingers.
If the fingers were connected to the moon. Perhaps when radahn was holding the stars in place halting ranni's fate, he also halted the death of her fingers in the process. Not allowing her to completely untether from the fingers.
Alternative hypothesis:
The church at the moonlight alter was exactly as the location suggests. A church to the moon. The Carian royals have strong ties to their moons. It would make sense that Rennala the Queen of the full moon would get married in a church of the moon. To show the moon's blessing of the union. And the church's original name would be lost to time as it would be then known for its ties to the union of Radagon and Renalla as the church of vows.
4:00 I disagree: this is the same dragon that guards Ranni's Rise and it will still attack you even there, right in front of Ranni, after you join up with Ranni. I believe that Ranni wants the dragon to attack the player to either stop them from pursuing her and/or to make sure the player is strong enough to defeat it.
I think Cathedral of Manus Celes it like Valyria a Old Capital in Game of Thrones Great Homeland of Dragons were destroyed by an unspecified nature.
So heres an important question to ask, how do other fingers get to their place. They appear to be bursting from the ground, but most located at the highest points of buildings, can they be moved, at they tied to the roots of the Erdtree, or are they actually shallow and fell just as you surmise?
So heres an idea, as another commenter has pointed out, the Fingers and their palm appear to be pointed away. Now one might assume it was Ranni who moved the fingers but how. I have to assume that the Fingers were there, the hole might even be where they stood. However regardless is they were in the cathedral originally or not, theres one simple explanation to multiple mysteries here, the fingers themselves dug the hole. It explains why it wind down in sporadic directions, why the fingers are completely mangled, and why they're so proactive about stopping you an Ranni. This desperate attempt to hide fits its MO of road blocking and resisting Ranni. Of all the demigods, she presented the strongest will to resist their fate, so perhaps even Radahn's fight to protect the Golden Order by arresting the stars was an influential bid by the two fingers to stop Ranni. Its a level of intervention thats only given to her, so the sheer terror they feel, knowing shes gone as far all killing her physical form, they tried their hardest to hide. The destruction of the cathedral is Ranni's influence, the stars crashed down to destroy the fingers. Perhaps that incident is the very thing that alerted them to arrest the stars.
I think most of the visual signifiers tell us they did crash down there some time ago. As for weird tunnel, I always thought they tried crawling away? Would explain why they look so sickly, even tho they have only been stabbed recently.
It doesnt seem to me that the space idea is at all ridiculous, because the space is a constant theme in the game, especially when talking about the Greater Will and Carians. The only real issue is the timing, where were they before they crashed, when did they crash and who did that (which must have happened some time ago because of the moss, mushrooms and all of that)
Their role in the story is also different because Ranni is different from most of people in the game, she is an Empyrian and is (supposed to) be directly controlled by them and the Greater Will, in this terms Tarnished have much more freedom in this world than she evenr did.
I think the fingers crashed farther back than most people realize, remmeber, behfore Rahdahn held up the stars, they were more or less free to do as they wanted.
I think her 2 fingers crashed long ago, but Ranni didn't have the means to kill them until of course, she got the finger slayer blade.
Which from where we come into the series, seems like decades, or maybe hundreds of years after the shattering. Which would explain the overgrowth.
the third-half limb i can't really explain though, except for the possibility that in the past that maybe the 3 fingers was a different entitiy, (With no proof) Or has two sides, the darkmoon and the Sun or somtehing. And flame of frezny being the representation of the sun, and the darkmoon just being another side of it, as it reflects the suns light.
could be that once an empyrean was born, the greater will sent the two fingers to govern them, they crash land in to a spot where they then build a cathedral for them
Manus Celeste could also translate to "Pale Blue/Sky Blue Hand", which would seem to fit better than just "Celestial Hand".
Maybe that church is in honor of the two moons. The Full Moon and the Dark Moon.
Probably others have the same thought, but what if Ranni’s two fingers, giggity, were “stored” underground, and needed a meteor to break the ground to them?
I think they came from space... just not recently. As for the hole, maybe they burrowed trying to run from Ranni after she obtained the finger slayer blade? that doesn't work with the mushrooms, though.
I would think that the cathedral predates the church of vows, the larger original. what you did make me realize though is where the bishop is. A cathedral has bishops, whereas churches are more general, so why is the turtle bishop at the church of vows and not his cathedral? Was he simply chased out or did it become less important than the church of vows
Maybe rannis 2 fingers don’t serve the greater will, but the outer god of the dark moon, kinda like how the three fingers serve the flame of frenzy
I'd assumed all the Fingers came from space long ago, whenever the primeval rain of stars occurred. The other fingers in the divine towers sit on top of meteor chunks like the ones you see under the fallenstar beasts, and "manus celes" translates roughly to "heavenly hand." I assume this is where some Carian ancestor (Renna??) called down the rain of stars from their vision. This...er...this theory has problems - were the divine towers already there and the fingers just happened to crash into them? If so did Ranni's fingers "miss?"
Highly speculative, but here goes nothing: The Founding Rain of Stars wrecked Farum Azula and maimed Placidusax's lost god. Her hand fell to earth in two parts - the larger part of the hand smashing into the great tree, and the two fingers crashing into Manus Celes. This rain of stars also brought all other kinds of new life including Astel, and maybe even The Elden Beast. As Lands Between Natives continued their various factional wars the Three Fingers came to host a vengeful version of the giants' fire god after his defeat. The Two Fingers, originally revered in Manus Celes, were eventually appropriated by Radagon and clippings were "planted" or "grafted" in the pre-existing divine towers, as tools of the erdtree/Greater Will. They now make up part of the root system of the tree, and (Again I know I'm way off the reservation here), the surveillance network for the Divine Beast. It does seem like the Two Fingers era of the Erdtree comes with Radagon's ascendancy and the birth of the Golden Order - fairly late in the game's history timeline. They're also associated with secrets and surveillance.
This explicitly puts the Divine Beast at odds with Ranni - the Beast using the vast surveillance network provided by multiple two fingers to hunt her, and her avoiding detection until she can murder its spies.
I don't think the church of vows or the cathedral were built specifically for radagon and rennas marriage - the church only became known for it afterwards. The architecture of both and the statues match the other "Saint statues" that we see on devine bridges and towers - predating radagon.
That and we know that rennas power came from the full moon, allowing her to become the first queen of raya lucaria. So I it could make sense for there to be a cathedral to the moon here, now in ruin since rennas fall.
Otherwise the age of the cathedral and architecture make me think it could even be related to the Nox, whose eternal cities used to lie on the surface and who were also moon and star worshipers.
Maybe Ranni wanted the curse mark of death not just for removing herself physically from the golden order but to remove her connection to the fingers as well. We’ve seen across the lands between with other demigods and their fingers what happens when they just disregard the existence or go down a non-golden order path. I wouldn’t be surprised if we got info that when she received the cursemark, it did something to the fingers assigned to her as well. It also could be she killed the fingers herself, anybody’s guess now tbh. Aside from a Miquella dlc, I’d love a dlc where we could go back in time to the era of the golden order before the night of the black knives and go through the story until that night to learn more about the past.
I am pretty sure the church got destroyed and hole got drilled by astel crash landing. The two fingers just seem to have been there for a while. Perhaps they are the reason that temple was built in the first place.
I would believe that either ranni was holding her two fingers hostage..... or her fingers were in hiding from her. and with the killing of radahn is set in motion the power that ranni was summoning to get into nokron and retrieve the weapon to to kill her fingers. and then she set an assault on the place the two fingers was at when she was ready.
Always quality content! That's the reason I have subbed! Can't wait for the day when I open this app and your video called "Elden Ring DLC leaked" pops up!:)
I wonder if rannis new body’s inspiration was from an alien with blue skin and 4 arms. There are aliens out there the falling star beast and onyx lord
Rannis quest is undoubtedly one of the best in the game.
Great topic! one of the most misterious places in the game indeed.
Im afraid I dont really see the conection between the church of vows and Manus Celes. What makes the church of vows important is that the door points to the Erdtree and the altar to the academy, enhancing the purpose of the church itself, and the name of the church refers to the vow Radagon does to the Carian family. Manus Celes has none of these characteristics. It looks sideways to both the tree and the academy, and the name, as the video mentions, talks about a celestial hand, which has nothing to do with Radagon or Rennala. I think the video is missing the only link in between the 2, the architecture, which is common with the eternal cities (gothic cathedrals). The church of vows has Eternal Cities statues, and to get to the area where Manus Celes is you have to go through another Eternal city.
We agree on the point that Manus Celes looks too weathered and covered in vegetation to be recently broken, that has to had happened some time ago. And the hole to the cave where the 2 fingers are is definitely more recent than the construction of the cathedral, as it goes through the tiles on the floor. And I dont think the fingers fell from the stars due to Radhans death, that tunel as the video points out, isnt straight, is not a result of a falling star in my opinion. I also agree those 2 fingers in the tunel are Rannis 2 fingers, the ones missing from her tower. But then, who are the 2 fingers in the round table assingned to?
Too many misteries XD
🎵Space Fingers! They fell from space.
Space Fingers! They wrecked this old place.
Space Fingers! They're coming for you!
Space Fingers! Kill 'em and praise the moon!!!🎶
Maybe they didn't find a way to send the fingers of Ranni into the moon so someone tried to hide it underground under the church (still accessible through a kind of hidden hole in the mountain after all). Maybe they could send it, but they wished to keep it in the Lands Between for a self defense reason or something. The random path to the underground is maybe someone who tried to uncover it, just like when you search for something lost into the sand or snow. Anyway, pretty damn good video, not far from VaatiVidya quality in term of infos.
Imagine the dlc bring us back to the past! The debunking of lore gonna explode like nuke.
I knew this background music sounded familiar
Ranni wants to be Gwendolyn so bad.
I think Ranni's two fingers, if they were held in the stars, maybe they retained their consciousness. A sort of mind in stasis effect. While the other two fingers have been standing around, witnessing the eternal cycles of the lands between and have grown senile.
Did anyone else notice the greek symbol for Omega is sculpted into the wondows of the cathedral?
Since killing Radhan allows one to put fate back on time, they could have crashed with the stars and their time moved on a lot more, hence the mushroom and vegetation. (even if for us it seems like a blink of an eye). Then, since their fate was once again moving along, they got killed by ranni.
one thing that bugs me is why her fingers are down there instead of being at the top of her tower, maybe she moved them before the night of black knives sense at she had planned the whole thing and Radhan wasn't insane at the moment.
So they're mushrooms from space, then?
I want to know why both the Fingerslayer Blade and the Sacred Relic Sword are both made from bodies. What's the connection between Ranni and the Elden Beast both wielding weapons with that specific attribute?
The moon is or has an outer god that needs to be examined more.
Another good one Z 👏
Rannis two fingers were probably the ones that were attached to the 3 fingers as the one great. Night of black knives separates the order from the chaos. The shattering split the 2 fingers into multiple 2 fingers but didn't kill them since the rune of death was no longer a part of the elden ring and got sealed away. Rannis 2 fingers is the original, all others are just fragments of the original. The three fingers never split because it was already separated from the elden ring as a result of the night of black knives. The three ancient dragons got separated from plucidisax at the same time creating a parallel between the one great and the dragon lord but the ancient dragons were sentient enough to not plunge into chaos as the fingers did. The one great taking the form of 5 fingers probably had something to do with the defeat of the fire giants since their hands were cut off as a result of their defeat
The great tree is separated from the roots creating the erdtree. The 3 fingers are located directly under Lyndell.
One of the ancient dragons attacked landell. One protected it. And the other was protecting at the roots at the deeproot depths where the deathblight started. While plucidisax got lost in time presumably unable to achieve death
I just thought randomly, who bred with the giants? Radagon and radhan had red hair I wonder if the first god was a giant and the vessel a dragon
So when I finally reached this area, there were fingers EVERYWHERE in that ruin. I wanna say by every star shared was a set of fingers against a wall, on the ground or in a corner.
@ziostorm is it not logical to presume, at least as a counterpoint to your theory, that is was Astel who crash landed into Manus Celes and not Ranni's two fingers? Then it burrowed far deep underground (supported by the winding tunnel) and some natural cave-in simply blocked the rest of its path to where we fight it. Astel is proven in the lore to come from the stars. Speculate as you will as to what this would ultimately mean and forgive me if someone else has brought this up.
Ranni's two fingers look like they grew inside the hole / cave, like there was no room to grow. Maybe the fingers are a fungus? I think there was a video about them being a fungi.
Is it for certain the churches were built to honor the union? Miriel says 'how it came to be known as the Church of vows'. Or something along those lines. Since we use celestial dew in the church of vows, linking it to the eternal city, and astel now blocks the way to manus celes, maybe the church of vows is a building built by or with ties to the eternal city that was repurposed by radagon and renalla and had been maintained better than manus?
Also, is there a chance rannis fingers were distorted by her killing her body but not her soul? Could explain why they take on the same colour as her.
Are you going to livestream the 1 year anniversary for Elden ring?
IDK how cannon this is, but I checked and Ranni and the two fingers are loaded into their places as soon as you start the game. No questline or items necessary. And you can interact with her as if you had completed all her quests.
That has nothing to do with "canonic decisions", it's a failsafe programmed into the game.
Great video! Was wondering no post from elden ring official twitter today…does that mean possibly they’re saving something big for this weekend?? I hope!!
Hope so too
Awesome video as usual
Ranni was betrothed to Godwin, the cathedral was to be the place of their union. That's why she targeted him on the night of black knives.