This isn't car related but wind related. Just in case anyone thinks that the strength of the wind is being exaggerated, it definitely is not. I was at the black sand beach, where Jewells is in this video, and i was knocked of my feet by a single gust of wind that came from nowhere. Please be careful and listen to the warnings.
This sounds a bit like driving in West Ireland. The weather can change there on a penny, wind, rain, hail and snow in one day….plus crazy zoomed out animals wandering onto the road (and looking at YOU as if you are intruding onto THEIR territory). Be aware people!!! Thanks Jewells.
Agree 100%. It seemed like a calm day and then there was one gust on wind that felt like a punch in my back. I had my hands in my pockets and couldn’t get them out in time, landed face first. Luckily I didn’t break my nose. Still the most beautiful place I’ve ever been!
I was surprised about the voluntary road rescuers you mentioned, maybe they could be an idea for anther video? As a Norwegian i can say for sure that if you always drive at the legal speed limit in winter, there is pretty much a 100% chance that your car will end up outside the road, even for us that is used to driving on ice and snow.
Yes, it’s a video idea I’ve had for a while. I just to coordinate it with the rescue teams. 😊 Thanks for sharing about your winter driving experience in Norway. I agree that it’s pretty similar here. However, some locals sometimes speed ahead of others going slower on icy roads.
I'm used to bad weather, driving in snow, etc ( New England and Colorado Mountains) but I must say, the photos of the cars having been ripped apart and sand (rock?) blasted left an impression 😱 I guess Iceland IS different!
Yes, it’s way more intense that what people are accustomed to. I do think experience with driving in snow and ice is great to have when you come but underestimating the weather warnings is where people get into trouble. Thanks for watching.
I was there for the bad storm in September! We sheltered and stayed in Laugerfell - while two groups of tourists decided to go north into the storm. 🙄😓 thanks for the focus on safety!!
At what point in September did you experience the storm? I am planning to visit the country during the first two weeks of September, but I am worried about driving the Ring Road when I will be traveling alone. I know the north can get more wild.
I never thought about opening all the car doors at the same time, but it makes sense! Thanks so much for great tips! I've only ever been in August and thankfully had pretty mild weather each time! Happy new year!
Another important tip as mentioned in the video, sheep. If you see sheep on the side of the road and it's only the mother blow your horn. Chances are that atleast one lamb is on the other side of the road and they often run over the road to the ewe when you are too close to respond. I think over 90% of the sheep in Iceland have two lambs so if you anly see the ewe and a single lamb assume that there is another nearby and drive accordingly.
I found it a little funny when you talked about wind and car doors. Us Icelanders just do this, most of the time, without thinking. I have never seen this advice in similar travel videos on Iceland.
I haven't made it out to Iceland yet from where I live in Hawai'i, but I appreciate your videos ever so much and I can't wait to make it out there one day! From our Island to yours Aloha nui!!
Great tips Jewells! I recognize a lot from previous visits. The ‘rules’ of exiting roundabouts and driving through one-lane tunnels are also very different from Europe for example. That took me some serious adjusting
@@AllThingsIceland There's this one tunnel up near Ísafjörður that's super long and one lane only, but with cars going both directions and it's nuts. Cars in one direction have the right of way, and the other direction has to keep pulling over into these enclaves on the side. I assume it was built when there wasn't much traffic and now it's increased a lot with tourism. Seems kind of dangerous. I had gotten a lift from a local (I was hitchhiking) who told me that they built it that way because it was cheaper, but it would cost sooo much now to widen that they just keep it like this.
My wife and I just got back from Iceland last week and were in that storm that you talked about and have never experienced anything like that here in the US. One thing no one has ever talked about was that there are summer tires and winter tires and because it was still October we had summer tires. We only found out when locals would point at our tires and say “oh that’s not good” 😰 the van company had to have our tires changed at a local shop after we slipped back down a hill and got stuck. It definitely was an adventure.
I definitely remember having to be walked to my bus stop in the morning as a child. The winds are no joke: I was terrified to walk alone in my childhood on some days.
Also another tip is when you're visiting specially tourist traps or locations in nature to read every sign you see, don't ignore the warnings and don't stray off the beaten path. If there's a sign that says the area is dangerous it means it's dangerous.
Some tourists are just plain asking for it by ignoring what THE LOCALS tell them or rather warn them about. I was at Dunn's River Falls in Jamaica years ago and the guide told everyone to STAY with the group. This one guy "went his own way"..as in Fleetwood Mac and ended up getting a nasty gash on his leg. I told him, "That's why we're TOURISTS and they're LOCALS!" 🤷🏿♀️
many foreigners are surprised when we tell them its not actually that cold here, but it isn't the cold that gets you here, its the weather. its not for people not used to it to deal with. a thing that always keeps on surprising me is the behavior i witness on the roads from tourists.given that i am the one that is born in a weather beaten rock in the middle of the atlantic i would assume i would be the caveman, but then i travel the roads in the tourist season and witness behavior i struggle to understand people from civilized nation doing, walking on the middle of roads both in town and out of town, stopping their cars in the middle of the road on the nr1 highway. driving tiny crossovers in to huge rivers, not reading any warning signs at all and getting them selfs in to danger. i live in a little town in the westfjords and during the oceanliner season its not uncommon for the passengers walking in to people gardens, laying on the windows on their home, trying to eat their lunch on someones garden furniture and so on. i struggle to understand this. my friend actually woke up one morning and some people where sleaping in a tent in his garden
A big mistake many tourists make with rental cars is that they drive onto roads where they shouldn't. Just because there's a road on the map doesn't mean you can drive any car. A four-wheel drive passenger car is just a passenger car and not an all-terrain vehicle. And remember, no insurance applies when crossing rivers.
As an icelandic cdl driver I agree with everything you said except the speed cameras, to the best of my knowledge they are only in 4 places, east of Selfoss, in Hvalfjarðargöng, just north of Hvalfjarðargöng right before you go under Mt.Hafnarfjall and then on Gridarvíkurvegur. There have been so many times I witnessed tourist stop on the middle of our main highway, Highway 1 that I'm surprised accidents are not more common that they really are.
Very informative video, thank you! Can you get the crazy winds even in the first weeks of September? I am planning to visit the country the first two weeks of September, but I am worried about driving north and doing the Ring Road when I will be driving by myself.
One of the scariest times when we were there in Sept. was the fog and rain in the north central area. I don’t remember the name of the area but we ended up taking this route because we missed the turn off to go around one of the peninsulas. We were surrounded by lava fields, so there was nowhere to pull off, and hard to see vehicles either in front or behind you. I also felt the strong winds at Diamond Beach and across the way where the icebergs were. Such a fun trip though, and I recommend it to everyone.
I used GO when I was there in August. Good company. We did run into the wind issue on the western side of Reykjavik by a lighthouse and nature preserve. My wife was caught off guard, but luckily no damage. Whew!
Thank you for the months of your videos with information. We just completed our Oct. 3 -17 Ring road trip. Because of your info we did experience at least five of your warnings. In Hofn after checking into our hotel the owners told us if we went into town to get back by 3 pm due to wind storm warnings. After a lunch we were stopped by police telling us the roads were being closed. Yes we could hear the winds all night long and did not depart until about 11am when the owners said it was ok to travel but to be careful. We did encounter sheep in the road which was fun seeing them look at our car and then trotting off. It was the icy roads that had us fearful and driving about 40 mph. We let everyone pass us. We didn’t care. When we got to Lake Mývatn our hotel seemed buried in snow. All this was some experience for me being from Hawaii. I did get to see many of the beautiful waterfalls with rainbows, Black sand Beach, Northern Lights and found Butin Vegan. I was able to find my doctors soups there. I was disappointed in most of the breakfasts and ate mainly cucumber and tomatoes, bananas, sliced oranges, melons and bought apples, mandarins, broccoli, carrots and some Vegan sandwiches at N1. This trip was an eye opener of fantastic landscapes of varied colors. Driving through Snow White landscapes with moon like vistas were not wasted on my eyes. Met several beautiful people there and will definitely want to return to see areas that were closed. Only had two experiences in the baths. The cold with the wind was somewhat difficult for me at 84 but perhaps before summer. Love your country and hope to-return soon. There is definitely more to see and experience. Thank you Jewells.
The most dangerous thing about the wind in Iceland is that it comes in gusts. Constant wind may be lets say 25m/s (55mph) but it can suddenly drop low for a few seconds and then there is a gust like a fist hitting you that goes over 40m/s (90mph) and there is no warning. This applies mostly if you are driving near mountains.
I went camping in Iceland and my tent was fine, but I saw several tents get destroyed by wind. I was worried mine would be too one night, though luckily it was fine.
oof, stopping in the middle of the road, I did that so many times! ... Man, with so many beautiful views and nowhere to stop, it's so difficult to resist. Iceland should build more viewing stop areas along the road. THE STORM... I was there in late Sept, some houses destroyed and even the garage panels of the fire station at Eskifjörður I think it was, destroyed. I couldn't sleep that night, thought my cottage was a gonner!
Maybe one more thing to keep in mind, that even though most cars now-a-days have front wheel drive, there are still some cars like vans, that have rear wheel drive. These two types handle completely differently and should definitely be taken into the picture in icy conditions especially.
GTI... Get. The. Insurance. People think "Oh, I have rental insurance through my credit card, blah blah blah" And they have regretted it. A friend had basic insurance and his car was sand blasted with the winds. Cost him $$$. ~ Btw: Another danger is not going through a traffic circle the Icelandic way.
It is unleagal to stop in the side of the road - except if your car brakes down. The police should (will) charge you - because there are continues marking lines there - which, as every driver knows, you are not allowed to cross.
I’m talking about safe places off the road. There are driveways and spots that are ok to pull off. I didn’t have the footage for this video but I’ll share what I’m talking about in the future.
Here, we have hurricanes, tornadoes, hurricanes that spawn tornadoes, and deep flooding that occurs with very little rain. Somehow, I think the weather in Iceland would still bring us to knees 😂
Wow! I would have thought that the climate would be inhospitable to flies. (We learn something new every day, don't we? 😂) Are there a lot of insects crawling and buzzing around trails and campgrounds? 🤔
@@l.b.9722 just the usual midgets mostly, harmless. Then there's the lúsmý, harsher biting midgets and then there's the wasp, they get very aggressive in august and sometimes they live in holes in the ground. The last one would be the ticks but I've never been bitten. I think that's all
@@l.b.9722 Iceland has the same basic bugs as everywhere. It mostly small flies that can become a super nuisance when outdoors if the wind is low. And indoors you can come across spiders but nothing to worry about too much.
Most companies have both. It seems that automatics might take over completely at some point, especially if Iceland focuses more on electric cars in the future.
I can't believe you didn't mention the fact that the beach you shot that video on(Reynisfjara/Black sand beach) is one of the most dangerous tourist places in Iceland, it has incredibly strong rip tides that a lot of tourists tend to fall victim to. There are warning signs but for some reason some tourists ignore them and the ones that do tend to be asian so this beach has gotten the (maybe a little racist) nickname of chinese take a way beach....
What are the odds that I would be looking for videos about visiting Iceland and would find your channel and my name is Jewell and I'm a black American woman lol
I dislocated my shoulder once because I only used my left hand to open the door. It was weak due to having been dislocated previously but anything can happen.
This isn't car related but wind related. Just in case anyone thinks that the strength of the wind is being exaggerated, it definitely is not. I was at the black sand beach, where Jewells is in this video, and i was knocked of my feet by a single gust of wind that came from nowhere. Please be careful and listen to the warnings.
Yea, it’s no joke. Thank you for sharing, Adam.
Thankfully, it was a very calm wind day when I was filming this. 😅
This sounds a bit like driving in West Ireland. The weather can change there on a penny, wind, rain, hail and snow in one day….plus crazy zoomed out animals wandering onto the road (and looking at YOU as if you are intruding onto THEIR territory).
Be aware people!!! Thanks Jewells.
Agree 100%. It seemed like a calm day and then there was one gust on wind that felt like a punch in my back. I had my hands in my pockets and couldn’t get them out in time, landed face first. Luckily I didn’t break my nose. Still the most beautiful place I’ve ever been!
The wind gusts are no joke. They've stopped me in my tracks. I'll be like, fighting the wind. Lol
I was surprised about the voluntary road rescuers you mentioned, maybe they could be an idea for anther video?
As a Norwegian i can say for sure that if you always drive at the legal speed limit in winter, there is pretty much a 100% chance that your car will end up outside the road, even for us that is used to driving on ice and snow.
Yes, it’s a video idea I’ve had for a while. I just to coordinate it with the rescue teams. 😊
Thanks for sharing about your winter driving experience in Norway. I agree that it’s pretty similar here. However, some locals sometimes speed ahead of others going slower on icy roads.
I'm used to bad weather, driving in snow, etc ( New England and Colorado Mountains) but I must say, the photos of the cars having been ripped apart and sand (rock?) blasted left an impression 😱 I guess Iceland IS different!
Yes, it’s way more intense that what people are accustomed to. I do think experience with driving in snow and ice is great to have when you come but underestimating the weather warnings is where people get into trouble. Thanks for watching.
Sandrok* = sand wind, c isn't in the icelandic alphabet
I was there for the bad storm in September! We sheltered and stayed in Laugerfell - while two groups of tourists decided to go north into the storm. 🙄😓 thanks for the focus on safety!!
At what point in September did you experience the storm? I am planning to visit the country during the first two weeks of September, but I am worried about driving the Ring Road when I will be traveling alone. I know the north can get more wild.
Thank you for your videos. My wife and I just got back from Iceland and your videos helped a lot
I never thought about opening all the car doors at the same time, but it makes sense! Thanks so much for great tips! I've only ever been in August and thankfully had pretty mild weather each time! Happy new year!
Another important tip as mentioned in the video, sheep. If you see sheep on the side of the road and it's only the mother blow your horn. Chances are that atleast one lamb is on the other side of the road and they often run over the road to the ewe when you are too close to respond. I think over 90% of the sheep in Iceland have two lambs so if you anly see the ewe and a single lamb assume that there is another nearby and drive accordingly.
I found it a little funny when you talked about wind and car doors. Us Icelanders just do this, most of the time, without thinking. I have never seen this advice in similar travel videos on Iceland.
Hello from USA... i love watching your videos. great info.
I haven't made it out to Iceland yet from where I live in Hawai'i, but I appreciate your videos ever so much and I can't wait to make it out there one day! From our Island to yours Aloha nui!!
Aloha!! I hope you do get to visit and I’m so glad my videos are helpful for you. I hope to visit Hawai’i one day. It’s looks amazing. 😍
Great tips Jewells! I recognize a lot from previous visits. The ‘rules’ of exiting roundabouts and driving through one-lane tunnels are also very different from Europe for example. That took me some serious adjusting
Thank you!! Yes, I feel like I need to make another video to include those. So many possibilities to talk about. 😅
@@AllThingsIceland There's this one tunnel up near Ísafjörður that's super long and one lane only, but with cars going both directions and it's nuts. Cars in one direction have the right of way, and the other direction has to keep pulling over into these enclaves on the side. I assume it was built when there wasn't much traffic and now it's increased a lot with tourism. Seems kind of dangerous. I had gotten a lift from a local (I was hitchhiking) who told me that they built it that way because it was cheaper, but it would cost sooo much now to widen that they just keep it like this.
So beautiful, and such fascinating history ...just 16,500 km away 😔
Great video. I bet golf in Iceland is interesting in that wind. Some people even get the coveted midnight tee-off time in summer!
My wife and I just got back from Iceland last week and were in that storm that you talked about and have never experienced anything like that here in the US. One thing no one has ever talked about was that there are summer tires and winter tires and because it was still October we had summer tires. We only found out when locals would point at our tires and say “oh that’s not good” 😰 the van company had to have our tires changed at a local shop after we slipped back down a hill and got stuck. It definitely was an adventure.
Such great advice, lovely fun, but important video... thank you
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
I definitely remember having to be walked to my bus stop in the morning as a child. The winds are no joke: I was terrified to walk alone in my childhood on some days.
Also another tip is when you're visiting specially tourist traps or locations in nature to read every sign you see, don't ignore the warnings and don't stray off the beaten path. If there's a sign that says the area is dangerous it means it's dangerous.
Agreed and thanks for adding that. 😊
@@AllThingsIceland no worries, love your content!
Some tourists are just plain asking for it by ignoring what THE LOCALS tell them or rather warn them about. I was at Dunn's River Falls in Jamaica years ago and the guide told everyone to STAY with the group. This one guy "went his own way"..as in Fleetwood Mac and ended up getting a nasty gash on his leg. I told him, "That's why we're TOURISTS and they're LOCALS!" 🤷🏿♀️
Such great and helpful advice from someone who has truly become a local. Thanks Jules. I hope that you and your husband are well. 🙏
many foreigners are surprised when we tell them its not actually that cold here, but it isn't the cold that gets you here, its the weather. its not for people not used to it to deal with.
a thing that always keeps on surprising me is the behavior i witness on the roads from tourists.given that i am the one that is born in a weather beaten rock in the middle of the atlantic i would assume i would be the caveman, but then i travel the roads in the tourist season and witness behavior i struggle to understand people from civilized nation doing, walking on the middle of roads both in town and out of town, stopping their cars in the middle of the road on the nr1 highway. driving tiny crossovers in to huge rivers, not reading any warning signs at all and getting them selfs in to danger. i live in a little town in the westfjords and during the oceanliner season its not uncommon for the passengers walking in to people gardens, laying on the windows on their home, trying to eat their lunch on someones garden furniture and so on. i struggle to understand this. my friend actually woke up one morning and some people where sleaping in a tent in his garden
Thanks for the tourist information. Good info.
My pleasure 🤗
Thank you so much for the valuable information.
My pleasure 😊
A big mistake many tourists make with rental cars is that they drive onto roads where they shouldn't. Just because there's a road on the map doesn't mean you can drive any car. A four-wheel drive passenger car is just a passenger car and not an all-terrain vehicle. And remember, no insurance applies when crossing rivers.
Another excellent - and essential - guide.
As an icelandic cdl driver I agree with everything you said except the speed cameras, to the best of my knowledge they are only in 4 places, east of Selfoss, in Hvalfjarðargöng, just north of Hvalfjarðargöng right before you go under Mt.Hafnarfjall and then on Gridarvíkurvegur. There have been so many times I witnessed tourist stop on the middle of our main highway, Highway 1 that I'm surprised accidents are not more common that they really are.
Very informative video, thank you! Can you get the crazy winds even in the first weeks of September? I am planning to visit the country the first two weeks of September, but I am worried about driving north and doing the Ring Road when I will be driving by myself.
One of the scariest times when we were there in Sept. was the fog and rain in the north central area. I don’t remember the name of the area but we ended up taking this route because we missed the turn off to go around one of the peninsulas. We were surrounded by lava fields, so there was nowhere to pull off, and hard to see vehicles either in front or behind you. I also felt the strong winds at Diamond Beach and across the way where the icebergs were. Such a fun trip though, and I recommend it to everyone.
I used GO when I was there in August. Good company. We did run into the wind issue on the western side of Reykjavik by a lighthouse and nature preserve. My wife was caught off guard, but luckily no damage. Whew!
Thank you for the months of your videos with information. We just completed our Oct. 3 -17 Ring road trip. Because of your info we did experience at least five of your warnings. In Hofn after checking into our hotel the owners told us if we went into town to get back by 3 pm due to wind storm warnings. After a lunch we were stopped by police telling us the roads were being closed. Yes we could hear the winds all night long and did not depart until about 11am when the owners said it was ok to travel but to be careful. We did encounter sheep in the road which was fun seeing them look at our car and then trotting off. It was the icy roads that had us fearful and driving about 40 mph. We let everyone pass us. We didn’t care. When we got to Lake Mývatn our hotel seemed buried in snow. All this was some experience for me being from Hawaii. I did get to see many of the beautiful waterfalls with rainbows, Black sand Beach, Northern Lights and found Butin Vegan. I was able to find my doctors soups there. I was disappointed in most of the breakfasts and ate mainly cucumber and tomatoes, bananas, sliced oranges, melons and bought apples, mandarins, broccoli, carrots and some Vegan sandwiches at N1. This trip was an eye opener of fantastic landscapes of varied colors. Driving through Snow White landscapes with moon like vistas were not wasted on my eyes. Met several beautiful people there and will definitely want to return to see areas that were closed. Only had two experiences in the baths. The cold with the wind was somewhat difficult for me at 84 but perhaps before summer. Love your country and hope to-return soon. There is definitely more to see and experience. Thank you Jewells.
The most dangerous thing about the wind in Iceland is that it comes in gusts. Constant wind may be lets say 25m/s (55mph) but it can suddenly drop low for a few seconds and then there is a gust like a fist hitting you that goes over 40m/s (90mph) and there is no warning. This applies mostly if you are driving near mountains.
I went camping in Iceland and my tent was fine, but I saw several tents get destroyed by wind. I was worried mine would be too one night, though luckily it was fine.
So glad to hear that your tent held up. 🥳
oof, stopping in the middle of the road, I did that so many times! ... Man, with so many beautiful views and nowhere to stop, it's so difficult to resist. Iceland should build more viewing stop areas along the road. THE STORM... I was there in late Sept, some houses destroyed and even the garage panels of the fire station at Eskifjörður I think it was, destroyed. I couldn't sleep that night, thought my cottage was a gonner!
You missed not going on F roads if driving a small hire car.
Maybe one more thing to keep in mind, that even though most cars now-a-days have front wheel drive, there are still some cars like vans, that have rear wheel drive. These two types handle completely differently and should definitely be taken into the picture in icy conditions especially.
GTI... Get. The. Insurance. People think "Oh, I have rental insurance through my credit card, blah blah blah" And they have regretted it. A friend had basic insurance and his car was sand blasted with the winds. Cost him $$$. ~ Btw: Another danger is not going through a traffic circle the Icelandic way.
Very true
It is unleagal to stop in the side of the road - except if your car brakes down. The police should (will) charge you - because there are continues marking lines there - which, as every driver knows, you are not allowed to cross.
I’m talking about safe places off the road. There are driveways and spots that are ok to pull off. I didn’t have the footage for this video but I’ll share what I’m talking about in the future.
Here, we have hurricanes, tornadoes, hurricanes that spawn tornadoes, and deep flooding that occurs with very little rain. Somehow, I think the weather in Iceland would still bring us to knees 😂
😂😂😂
Lol the timing is so funny. I just got hit by a car on my bike a few hours ago. I'm okay, just a little bruised up. Def got lucky.
Oh no!! I’m so sorry to hear that this happened and I’m glad you are ok. ❤️
Praise God that you are well. 😊❤
@@AllThingsIceland thank you! Also ur channel is super interesting and it's cool to see u getting more subscribers 💜♥️💜🐤
@@SheWhoComesAtNight thank you ! 💜♥️💜🐤🦑
@@crumbtember Thank you! ❤
Things most people are not prepared for when they come to Iceland is the WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND and the flies.
Yes!!! 😢
Wow! I would have thought that the climate would be inhospitable to flies. (We learn something new every day, don't we? 😂) Are there a lot of insects crawling and buzzing around trails and campgrounds? 🤔
@@l.b.9722 just the usual midgets mostly, harmless. Then there's the lúsmý, harsher biting midgets and then there's the wasp, they get very aggressive in august and sometimes they live in holes in the ground. The last one would be the ticks but I've never been bitten. I think that's all
@@l.b.9722 Iceland has the same basic bugs as everywhere. It mostly small flies that can become a super nuisance when outdoors if the wind is low. And indoors you can come across spiders but nothing to worry about too much.
are rental cars usually automatic or manual transmission?
Most companies have both. It seems that automatics might take over completely at some point, especially if Iceland focuses more on electric cars in the future.
Idk how I'd do with an automatic in regular winter weather, let alone x10.
I had my truck door jerked out of my hand in Kansas,,,it's pretty sickening to see your door touching your front fender...
😭😭
I can't believe you didn't mention the fact that the beach you shot that video on(Reynisfjara/Black sand beach) is one of the most dangerous tourist places in Iceland, it has incredibly strong rip tides that a lot of tourists tend to fall victim to. There are warning signs but for some reason some tourists ignore them and the ones that do tend to be asian so this beach has gotten the (maybe a little racist) nickname of chinese take a way beach....
What are the odds that I would be looking for videos about visiting Iceland and would find your channel and my name is Jewell and I'm a black American woman lol
That’s amazing!!! I hope you do visit in the near future. 🤗
Please please please be careful with doors during strong winds 🙏 We had to experience it ourselves and it was a 2500€ mistake 🥲😅
Oh no! Sorry you experienced that and thank you for sharing.
I dislocated my shoulder once because I only used my left hand to open the door. It was weak due to having been dislocated previously but anything can happen.
@@bjarkih1977 wow that's really crazy! Hope everything is fine now
Everything is not fine but that was known at the time, previous injury was to bad. This didn't help however. (note this was in 1998)