That's totally the opposite of what we get with the Oz Geese where we are racing fleets of boats and swapping boats. Before we started to really get used to racing the boats there seemed to be a difference. But with regular fleet sailing we have a much better idea of what is happening. Both tacks are the same for equal ability sailors sailing nearby but not blocking each others wind. But now the equally good sailors can stay close together with their sails on opposite sides of the mast. Not just once, but race after race. With the sail to windward it is the good tack. Everyone can sail the boat fast. With the sail on the leeward side the speed is more tricky to find. But if the speed is found before pointing and then the boat is pointed ... the speed is equal ... just have to remember the feeling of speed on the easy side and make sure that speed it equalled on the more difficult side. I would say that the light wind sections are inconclusive in your video. In each case the boat pulling away is in clear wind and the other isn't. The medium/strong footage is more compelling. One of the things we have found with the geese is using the sheet with more aggressive easing in gusts to make sure heeling is not too much also prevents leeway. Don't ever pinch the boat upwind in gusts. Just ease the sheet and hike. Pull the sheet in again when the power drops so we don't heel to windward. Boats that pinch go sideways. Boats that ease stay on the same line and go much faster. ruclips.net/video/lxulGec31vs/видео.html
Definitely worth persevering with the experiments. Perhaps swap boats too as we do reasonably regularly in the Oz Geese. (Same designer and a very similar sail to the Goat island Skiff)
Hi Michael! I was hoping you would give your valuable input and you didn’t let me down! I have read your article about it was exactly what made me make this video as we have found time after time after time that the sail to leeward works better on the our GISs. I would like to thank you for the compliment by the way, as it seems that me and Pedro are excellent sailors since both of us when sailing with the sail to leeward, on which you say “only good sailors” can achieve the speed, is where we actually shine on our GISs! 😂😁😂😋 I will have to disagree with your observation about the “clean air” tho. 0:33 when I rejoined Pedro he was already moving and not only I caught up as I went past him. And even “under” the Topper sail I still managed to pull away from Bruno too on my "good tack". And blocking each other's wind was only a few seconds, we sailed for miles with clean air...same result. 2:05 Before we tacked we both had clean air and he was actually going to overtake easily!!! After we tack, Pedro has all the clear air he could ask for and still despite me being behind him, and then having to go to leeward, and giving way to the Topper, and then having to point higher to rejoin Pedro, I do so ahead of him. On my outings with Bruno he was the one to say many a time how much better the sail to leeward tack works on the GIS has I always manage to catch up or overtake him on that tack. I totally agree with you on the no pinching to wind strategy! You can see me easing the mainsheet on this video here 3:20 and here 3:25 The only small movement to windward is a natural response from the GIS small weather helm under strong gusts until I can compensate and ease the main sheet. Thanks so much for your input ! 😉
I will keep investigating this. Swapping boats would help if there was only GIS v GIS. When we always have a "neutral boat" to sail against like the Topper, that variable no longer stands as both GISs and skippers get the same results against it. It would maybe help quantify "how much worse" or "how much better" each tack is but not which is which.
@@MikStorer Not sure you are correct there my friend, simply because you are sailing a herring box that has a chine that - when heeled over - acts as a dagger board and keeps your dinghy on course. The waterlength is also almost constant with your boats which makes no difference on the sail simply mentioning it for the sake of mentioning it. Pedro is correct here I'm afraid. Lug sails have a good tack and a less favorable tack.
@@team3383 I work as a boat designer for this type of boat. Also I have many years as a successful dinghy racer up to National level. I agree that there have been writings about chines and heel over the years. But they miss the actual experience - when the centreboard or leeboard is pulled up most sailing dinghies just go sideways. It's the experience of all of us. Heeling the boat might help just a little, but the direction is still strongly and permanently sideways. Every weekend we have to sail through weed to get to our racing grounds in chined boats. And whether boats are heeled only slightly or a great deal they all end up very downwind of where we leave the beach. That's up to 30 sailors! Heeling or not heeling - it doesn't work. And there are very excellent sailors with decades of experience in the fleet.
What a fantastic video! Best presentation on the subject I have ever seen. I have sailed a type of sailing canoe in Japan called a Sabai from Okinawa for about 12 years. It's a very strange boat. A shark fishing boat, coated in shark liver oil to preserve and water-proff with sails often dipped in pig's blood also for preservation. Used to be a pure dug-out canoe but now uses three planks as the big trees are all gone. Traditional sabani sailors have no outrigger for support. They are the most unstable boats in the world but after about 4 years of regular practice you can get the balance of it even in strong winds and on the open sea. The rig is a Chinese style (adapted by the Okinawans) junk rig with bamboo stretchers mounted outside the sail. You canot dip the rig and must plan ahead for which side you want to rig on. Without a doubt, and with several hundred years of practice, I can tell you the Okinawans totally agree with you. It is common sense to them that they lose the effort from any sail area before the mast. Furthermore there is more air disturbance in such a situation. To see and learn about the crazy Sabani boats you can Google "Sabani Okinawa". Now I have moved to the south of France and am about to buy an old lug-sailed mackerel boat from Brittany and so I need to learn the lug sail. Your video is great, please keep them coming. Kind regards, English Bill, port of Marseillan
Hi Bill. Thanks for the info! My findings are true for my skiff, and I have no doubts about it after hundreds of sailing sessions, many against symmetrical rigs like the toper and Lasers etc. I believe that with this rig it's really important to have a powerful downhaul. a 4:1 or 6:1 isn't enough, I believe an 8:1 to be the minimum to be able to keep a straight luff in good winds. IMHO some boats rigged with less powerful downhauls perform better on the "bad tack" only because the mast helps stabilize the sail and it's more a case of the "good tack" isn't performing as well as it should due to lack of luff tension, but that's only my opinion.... 😉
@@TheBoatRambler Again you make good sense. There is a lot of chat written online about strengthening the luff to withstand the "more than expected" tension it sometimes needs. I am so eager to try the new boat and lug sail. I remember when I had my first sailing lessons 45 years ago. After only a few days the teacher said... "OK... off you go alone". I wanted to learn more from him, he said "Only your own boat and sails and the wind and sea, and your own humility, can teach you now". ...after that, a lifetime of fun learning by doing. Thanks again.
@@TheBoatRambler I liked your videos about the rigging of the lateen sail. I've never tried to sail on such a boat, although it is also tradition in Croatia, but it is dieing tradition today 😥
You get more sailing from a bad tack. My friend has a very fast power boat he gets his afternoon on the water done in 30 minutes and then he watches the street. Peace and love everyone 💕 Peace and love. 🇹🇹🚣♂️🇯🇴 Rick
that's another way of looking at it! But around here we only ever get 4 hours of sailing max, due to the tides, regardless of how good it performs. So it's a matter of how far will you go before running aground and being stuck in the mud for 6 hours!...😅
Thanks for this useful test of a long standing hypothesis. It gives substantial support for the utility of symmetrical rigging and/or use of a dipping lug sail.
Thanks Greg. As I keep sailing my skiff against other boats I am more convinced of my findings. I would love to revisit this, but with scientific way /data to confirm it. Need someone with a cruiser or a boat with all wind instruments to set a course and measure angle and speed on both tacks... 🤔 Make a few tries keeping same speed on both tacks and check the angle to the wind, and then a few tries keeping the same angle and checking the speed, maybe one day!
When teaching marine design at University, we ran some wind tunnel tests on various rigs, and I was interested in how the lug rig and the junk rigs performed on each tack. We found that in both cases, all else being equal, the boats were faster and pointed better on the tack with the mast on the leeward side. I'd suggest that you might look for other differences.
Hi John, thanks for your input. It's an honor to have you join this topic. It would be really great if you could provide more info on the test conditions: what kind of lug setup? balanced? boom or boomless? fixed or loose footed? Outhaul adjustments? What percentage of sail area forward of the mast? Distance from luff to the mast? What were the wind speed ranges? What was the luff tension range applied (downhaul power, 4:1, 6:1, 8:1 or more?) etc.... PS: I don't quite understand "look for other differences" could you elaborate a bit please?
@@TheBoatRambler Balanced lug, laced foot, proportions, foot one, luff and head one, leech one point eight. Material, very lightweight mylar, wind speed eight knots. These were scale models as our wind tunnel is quite small, so the rigs were 1/5 scale. The principle aim of the testing was to evaluate the drive from several different configurations of rig by area, , and the drive by heeling moment. The information as to the drive on each tack for the balanced lug was a secondary discovery, and one which I'd suspected but was very pleased to have proof of. The balanced lug by the way had the best ratio of drive to heeling moment which was interesting. On my own small boats I like to have the foot laced, but use a boom and yard that have a controlled amount of flex, and I use, for a typical sail of say, nine square metres, a four part downhaul with a two part tail which gives me eight to one tension. The aim being that I can control the draft in the sail by flexing the yard and boom with the downhaul, bending those to take material out of the sails belly to flatten it.
I'm intrigued by lugsails, so studying up a bit. I've seen 2 of your videos so far & already learned much! My boat is an old gunter-rigged Mirror. My goal is to try dinghy cruising. I'm kicking around the idea of a single balanced, boomless lug sail instead of the main & jib, impressed with the apparent ease of handling on Roger Barnes' ilur. No boom to hit you on the head, easy to drop in a squall.. perhaps dispense with the standing rigging....
Hi. If you want to remove the standing rigging you'll need a different mast than the Mirror's. I don't think that mast is strong enough for a lug sail without having the shrouds in place.
I am revisiting this video because I have exactly the same issue as you do. My bad tack is the one where the sail is pressed against the mast. Despite what Mik says is possible I have not yet achieved it. I lose angle and about 2 knots of speed on the bad tack in around 10 knots of wind. I need to do some more work on my sheeting arrangement and I can see that I have some sail twist issues when I look at some of the videos I took, so a big part of this is my inexperience, but I am learning heaps thanks to you and Mik Storer and Ross Lillistone.
My experience indicates better boat speed (in rough conditions) when on the 'Good Tack' and better pointing ability on the 'Bad Tack'. I've been sailing dinghies competitively for 64 years.
the axle would just have to be perpendicular to the sail spar at the angle you want the spar. ( see previous comment ) then every tack is a good tack, and you could also go past center, stop in the middle, and rig to sail downwind. each sail spar end would have it's own side to swing...one end swings on the port side, and one swings on the starboard side.....one swings up, while the other swings down.
@@TheBoatRambler it is simple....but i think it might be an asian sailing rig design.....when i saw a sail boat do that, it was like magic .... and i thought, "how do they do that???" ....just a few minutes of puzzling, and i figured it out, i think....i don't know if that is exactly how they do it, but it makes sence.
@@TheBoatRambler simplest way would be finding the center of the spar...marking your lateen mast for the cut...and drilling a hole in the center of the spar for a large lag bolt and washers.. but i would at least use some epoxy to seal the top of the mast cut, and into the lag hole in the mast.
@@TheBoatRambler that would also reduce mast drag, and lean....And it would lower the boat's center of gravity.....so lopping that upper portion of the mast off would improve performance too.
On Scamp I can not find a difference in speed on either tack. I wonder if it is because it has a round mast....a square mast must have decrease laminar flow comparably. Also scamp appears to has more sail forward of the mast. have you experimented with moving the yard and boom more forward? when I"m sailing on your "bad tack" I see two foils. One forward of the mast and one aft. like a jib and a main. the shape of the sail looks pleasant. with how your rig is set up right now to my eye your bad tack doesn't have clean foil lines. hope this can help you. Thanks for posting your videos.
Hi Johann, I can achieve the same speed on each tack while reaching but the angle at which I sail in relation to the wind will vary. The only way to see this (without a bunch of electronics aboard) is by sailing quite a few times along side a boat with a symmetrical rig like the Topper. When sailing on my own it's impossible to take any conclusions. It's actually surprising how a lot of ppl dismissed the fact that the best benchmark on this video is the Topper and not the other GIS!! As for sail balance, I can't just put more sail forward of the mast as each boat has a center of sail area and center of lateral resistance and changing any of these will affect the boat's balance. So if I put more sail forward I will get lee helm.
The tension differences in the downhaul can make a very significant difference in how the leading edge of the sail splits the airflow. I think Mike Storer has found that also. Also if the outhaul downhaul and outhaul are both tensioned more so the sail is flatter, the portion of the sail ahead of the mast will not have such a different angle of attack, and may start to contribute some lift. Perhaps that is why in stronger winds when the sail is tensioned flatter that the good/bad tacks show less of a speed difference. Not an expert - just guessing .
I don't believe that the loss of sail area is as detrimental on the 'bad' tack, as the fact that the luff shape destroys the air flow over the sail. I wonder if flattening the sail draft while on the 'bad' tack might help some.
Hi Denis! the loss of 10% of sail area is significant. As for flattening the sail on the bad tack I think it does it automatically since the sail on that tack needs to go around the mast it forces it to be flatter already, if that makes sense.... could try a bit flatter I guess... or less!! 🤔
@@TheBoatRambler what happens if you put more belly in on bad tack then? V. interesting clip, thanks. Watching all with interest as pondering if a ‘stock’ GIS sail could work on a larger heavier boat, (to replace current Bermudan main), but using beefed-up spars.
Thanks Teo! Thanks for yet another great video. My Welsford 6-metre Whaler is a standing lug yawl, and I rig the main and mizzen so that their 'bad' tacks are opposite. Who knows whether good/bad tacks work differently between standing and balanced lugs? And my mizzen is a sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton anyway. I've never measured performance on each tack, but maybe I'll get around to doing that some time. The main point is being out on the water having fun. Cheers!
Hi, my GIS has a balanced Lug setup. On a dipping lug there would be no "bad tack" since the sail would dip and swing to the other side with every tack.
Olá, nestas coisas de velejar, o que sei é pegar o vento e com o leme tentar levar o barco a bom porto, mas ir contra o vento é que obra! Abraço like 142 :D
Good video, and the first I've seen attempting to make a direct comparison. However, I don't think your results are conclusive. There are other differences, including the weight, position, and ability of the two sailors, and I doubt that the boats are absolutely identical. If you had swapped boats and done the same comparison and got the same results it would have been more conclusive. As others have pointed out, you are sailing with an unusually big draught (belly) in your sail in the light winds. It seems to work for you. My own boat is also balanced lug. I find she has a good tack and a bad tack, but it depends on the wind, the surface conditions, and most of all, what mood she's in. On a windy day, the so-called "bad tack" helps to keep the sail flat and it becomes the "good tack". On a windy day in a non-planing boat, you are limited to hull speed, and once you can achieve that, any theoretical "inefficiency" in the sail is irrelevant. On a day of low winds, I find the biggest single factor is putting my weight in the right place and sitting still so as not to disturb the airflow over the sail. Thanks for posting the video. Genuinely interesting.
Hi Mike! Thanks for your input! By the way the GIS has a planing hull. On windy days to keep the sail flatter I crank on the downhaul and pull on the outhaul a bit. It seems to work ok. On light winds the drag is irrelevant as the boat is moving slow but a big draught helps increase the speed of the wind over the sail on the leeward side thus increasing lift, that's why I sail with such a "big belly " on my sail in light winds. 🤔 None of us ever sailed specifically to test this theory, this was just observation of differences in speed and angle we saw over a few months in many outings. I might make a video this season trying to explore this in more detail...😉
Just an observation. You seem to have much more draught "belly" in your sail than the other GIS. Any reason for this? Would that influence the good tack bad tack comparison?
Hi! Good observation! In light winds I tend to set my sail with a lot of depth. It seems to work better for my GIS. Maybe because my boat is heavier (heavier plywood and I keep a lot of stuff permanently aboard) or I just think it does...something else I can track on the GPS next times I go sailing...🤔 I can't quantify how much the sail depth affects each tack but it obviously didn't change the fact that we were BOTH slower on the "bad tack" than the other on the "good tack" regardless of the difference in sail depth. 😉
what are those asian sail rigs, that flip, called ??? .... i was thinking, why not have a double tapered bearing in a lateen sail spar, where the top of a shorter mast has an axle pointing up and fore ??? ... if it was a small boat, you could lift the spar up, put it on the axle, and wrench on a nut ...... two sheets through two blocks on the bow...one attached to each end of the spar.
Hi Eric! There is a rig, the dipping lug, which can dip the sail to the opposite tack when needed. But it takes time and to be honest...unless it's a loooong journey it's not worth it.
@@TheBoatRambler i don't have a boat yet.......so i would have to make a model to show people how it works in a video.....but you could actually make the first rotating spar lateen rig....should i make a model? and make a video?
Teo, Thank you for another great video! I have never measured it, although what seems obvious you have given here as proof of the difference between balance lugger rig tacks. Someday I have to use instruments because I have the impression that on the "bad tack" (in mine it is left, port side, tack) my GIS walks a bit closer to the wind. But that's just an impression, so it needs to be measured. Honestly, I would like to rely on your opinion on this matter, because I do not really want to use measuring instruments. ;-) Best regards
well I was under the same impression too before I started sailing with other boats regularly. The "bad tack it seems easier to control but then you look at the result and...
I've never sailed a lug rig and am in the process of acquiring materials for my own GIS. I certainly can see how the mast affects the shape of the sail depending on which side the sail is. Shape is so critical to any sail's performance. I think you must be correct. At the same time a true test would eliminate all of the variables such as occupant weight, position of passengers, and even hull weight as you indicated in your construction videos that you used birch instead of okoume. You thought your hull would be as much as 20% heavier. Finally, with little separation between boats at the start the leeward sail will always be slower as the windward boat is blocking airflow. Your test was over a long enough distance so that probably overcame this starting difference. A question I would have regarding the birch. Have you found any signs of water intrusion or de lamination after the first summer? I have easy access to Baltic Birch ply and it is beautiful. For a 6mm sheet it is in the $50 range. I can also source the preferred Okoume but a 6mm sheet of that is around $160! I hope the birch is holding up well! LOL
Hi Bruce! the weights, materials etc are a constant for each boat on both tacks. They have no influence in determining if there is a good or a bad tack. Now if you want to quantify it then you are absolutely right. 😉
Regarding the Birch Ply I haven't noticed any water ingression on the inside/varnished side. On the Outside we will have to see once I bring it home for some maintenance. But as far as I know the glue properties on this ply are identical to the marine ply. The downside is the weight and the repaired knots which are present and visible on some of the face plies. Also small voids are in spec for this ply but being completely encapsulated in epoxy and having 5 plies it should not matter on the GIS build.
There are too many variables, such as wind speed and outhaul tension to allow a worthwhile comparison. How many years of dinghy sailing experience do you have?
I've been sailing since I was a kid but only sailed the GIS a few hundred times in 4 years. regarding the variables...I think people concentrate their analysis mostly in the difference in performance between the two GIS while to me it's the comparing against the topper that says it all. The setting on my GIS was a constant, I always sail it my way, and the Topper doesn't have a good or bad tack so the difference between boats/tacks is clear. I didn't reach this conclusion in one or two outings. It was an observation of hundreds if not thousands of hours sailing my GIS against other boats. But this is only my opinion regarding my boat.
@@TheBoatRambler I'm interested in your analysis, but like Michael Storer, my experience has been exactly the opposite of yours - i.e. my pointing ability with the sail on the windward side of the mast ('bad tack') is better than on the 'good tack'. Boat-speed seems to be the same, but if there is a reduction, it is outweighed by the gain to windward. When the sail is on the leeward side of the mast ('good tack') boat speed and power to punch through waves is better, but the pointing ability is reduced -slightly. It seems that sail set-up is where we differ. You appear to have very little balance area forward of the mast, and quite a full sail draft. My boats generally have a much larger balance area, so the mast is back in what is the area of separated flow anyway. High downhaul tension and lack of sag in the luff is important. Lastly, I use a 'yard hauling parrel' which snugs the halyard attachment point up against the mast in a positive manner.
@@jetta1342 Michael made that comment based on the Oz Goose fleet., which mostly use very simple downhaul arrangements. I believe the difference is exactly there. I don't see many lug sails with a 8:1 downhaul like mine which allows me to put a huge tension on the luff as wind increases. without it I believe the mast on the "bad tack" actually helps create a stable edge on the sail and makes it work better than a good tack with a flapping luff. But this is just my opinion...
4 года назад+1
Interesting! We have experienced the opposite with a friend, and GPS tracks confirmed our observation with my OZ Racer. You are much more experienced in sailing than I am, and videos confirm your observation. Assuming that we are both right, I guess my sail does not have enough downhaul tension, or my home made tarp sail has too much rocker or it is just stretched. Waiting for other opinions :)
Hi István! I'm a noob regarding anything related to lug sails. The GIS is the first boat with a lug sail that I ever sailed so... But I have sailed many times with Bruno and Pedro and this is what I could see. Even just today we all went out to Rat Island and I could go all the way in just one tack...the good tack. and yes, I got there ahead of all of them although as Pedro was soloing this time, he didn't come too far back. Maybe it's a Sail/Boat specific thing... I'm sure there will be a lot of people with different opinions! 😉
There is more going on here than simply good an bad tack. That doesn't mean your wrong about that though. Most of the time when your showing the bad tack your also in a disadvantage wind from the other boats and when you are showing the good tack, your in an advantaged position. You see, a sailboat is deflecting the the wind. Changing the local wind direction around it in the direction a a knock on that tack and a lift on the opposite tack. It also slows the wind speed slightly. So, if you are level, overlapped or aft & whether you are anywhere from their windward to lee side you will experience a knock and be unable to point as high as them & you will have less wind speed than they do. So, you will be disadvantaged in both wind pressure and pointing ability. If you are in front on the same tack anywhere from their lee bow to windward bow, you will have the advantage of wind pressure and pointing ability over the other boat. So this makes it difficult to make valid comparisons between boats that are close to each other. However, just thinking abut airflow over sails, I think you are correct, because the mast is a big disrupter of airflow. The layer of air that is affected by the skin friction of the sail is called the boundary layer. When a sail is attached to a mast, the boundary layer typically separates form the sail, but reattaches further downstream, forming a "separation bubble". This tends to happen on both sides but reattaches more easily on the windward side than the lee side. If it does not attach on the lee side, this is a stall. Racers place tell tails on their sails to indicate whether flow is attached or not and that helps adjust the sail shape to maximum efficiency. Anyway, the point is that on the bad tack, I would expect a large area of boundary layer separation to occur around the mast area, particularly on the lee side which will spoil both pointing and power. However, on the good tack, the mast is mostly in free air away from the sail, so it will not generate a separation bubble on the sail. So I expect you will have more efficiency on that tack. There are, or at least have been double ended lateen rigged boats designed to reverse direction so that the sail is always on the lee side of the mast. They change tacks by simply reversing rather than going about. They use 2 steering boards, no rudder. Have you ever seen anything like that, I have only read about it? Maybe its historic. Regards, Ken
I Ken! Thanks for the great comment. Regarding wind disruption have a look at 0:33 , I come from behind on the “good tack” (actually tacked to rejoin the other boats and despite being aft of both boats and to leeward of the topper I went past both of them. 50 meters lead in 30 seconds… the topper had clear air all the time and still couldn’t keep up. 1:40, Pedro is on his good tack now and to leeward of the topper. While he couldn’t even keep up with us before he is actually gaining ground on the topper now, despite being to leeward. 2:06 Pedro on the good tack and me on the bad tack…Pedro overtook me, then we tack and despite me being on his shadow I overtake him under his sail even though I had to go around the topper. He was on the bad tack with clean air and had no chance there! 3:19 Bruno was way ahead and had no interference on wind anymore…on my good tack I gained a lot to windward and crossed his wake only a couple of meters away from his transom. On my bad tack I couldn’t point as high and lost so much I ended up quite a lot to leeward and on bad wind. My conclusions were taken after dozens of outings together with the topper. This video shows only a few. I got a lot of comments on FB like “it’s not conclusive” “you and Pedro should swap boats”, “try your rig on Pedro’s boat”, “There is a difference in weight between the two GISs”, “maybe you and Pedro sail differently” etc etc… It really surprised me that people dismissed the most important thing in this test: The Topper is THE benchmark!! It is symmetrical in every way!! And none of the GISs could keep up with the Topper on the bad tack and both GISs could take the Topper on the good tack! Regardless of ALL the differences between the two GISs. Different boats will behave differently but imho the boats with balanced lugs which sail best with the sail to windward of the mast do so due to lack of downhaul tension. When on this tack the mast provides straight edge/support for the sail so it doesn’t luff so they point better. With the sail to leeward of the mast if the downhaul isn’t powerful enough the sail’s luff will “flap” in strong winds when trying to point high and it will perform worse than on the other tack!! ( and no, a 4:1 or 6:1 isn’t powerful enough, GISs have 8:1 and more, and other racing dinghies have 16:1) I still believe that if the sail was better to windward of the mast there would be no need for “dipping sails”… Hope it makes sense…Just my two cents anyway! 😉 Regards, Teo
I wonder what would be the result with a warram wing sail, the sail has a big pocket and slide on the mast, this reduce turbulence as the flow is smoth on both sides. Then you add as small self tacking jib to it with maybe a small bowsprit.
You can't have it all in life, theres always a cost-benefit analysis to everything. Lug sails have the advantage of being very simple and easy to use, but they do have the "good tack, bad tack" disadvantage. If it's a problem, then you can go to a gaff sail, but then there's more complications. But really it doesn't seem like such a big deal Your sailing, taking the free ride. Does everything in life have to be a race?
That's totally the opposite of what we get with the Oz Geese where we are racing fleets of boats and swapping boats.
Before we started to really get used to racing the boats there seemed to be a difference. But with regular fleet sailing we have a much better idea of what is happening. Both tacks are the same for equal ability sailors sailing nearby but not blocking each others wind.
But now the equally good sailors can stay close together with their sails on opposite sides of the mast. Not just once, but race after race.
With the sail to windward it is the good tack. Everyone can sail the boat fast. With the sail on the leeward side the speed is more tricky to find. But if the speed is found before pointing and then the boat is pointed ... the speed is equal ... just have to remember the feeling of speed on the easy side and make sure that speed it equalled on the more difficult side.
I would say that the light wind sections are inconclusive in your video. In each case the boat pulling away is in clear wind and the other isn't.
The medium/strong footage is more compelling.
One of the things we have found with the geese is using the sheet with more aggressive easing in gusts to make sure heeling is not too much also prevents leeway. Don't ever pinch the boat upwind in gusts. Just ease the sheet and hike. Pull the sheet in again when the power drops so we don't heel to windward. Boats that pinch go sideways. Boats that ease stay on the same line and go much faster.
ruclips.net/video/lxulGec31vs/видео.html
Definitely worth persevering with the experiments. Perhaps swap boats too as we do reasonably regularly in the Oz Geese.
(Same designer and a very similar sail to the Goat island Skiff)
Hi Michael!
I was hoping you would give your valuable input and you didn’t let me down!
I have read your article about it was exactly what made me make this video as we have found time after time after time that the sail to leeward works better on the our GISs.
I would like to thank you for the compliment by the way, as it seems that me and Pedro are excellent sailors since both of us when sailing with the sail to leeward, on which you say “only good sailors” can achieve the speed, is where we actually shine on our GISs! 😂😁😂😋
I will have to disagree with your observation about the “clean air” tho.
0:33 when I rejoined Pedro he was already moving and not only I caught up as I went past him. And even “under” the Topper sail I still managed to pull away from Bruno too on my "good tack". And blocking each other's wind was only a few seconds, we sailed for miles with clean air...same result.
2:05 Before we tacked we both had clean air and he was actually going to overtake easily!!!
After we tack, Pedro has all the clear air he could ask for and still despite me being behind him, and then having to go to leeward, and giving way to the Topper, and then having to point higher to rejoin Pedro, I do so ahead of him.
On my outings with Bruno he was the one to say many a time how much better the sail to leeward tack works on the GIS has I always manage to catch up or overtake him on that tack.
I totally agree with you on the no pinching to wind strategy!
You can see me easing the mainsheet on this video here 3:20 and here 3:25
The only small movement to windward is a natural response from the GIS small weather helm under strong gusts until I can compensate and ease the main sheet.
Thanks so much for your input ! 😉
I will keep investigating this.
Swapping boats would help if there was only GIS v GIS.
When we always have a "neutral boat" to sail against like the Topper, that variable no longer stands as both GISs and skippers get the same results against it. It would maybe help quantify "how much worse" or "how much better" each tack is but not which is which.
@@MikStorer Not sure you are correct there my friend, simply because you are sailing a herring box that has a chine that - when heeled over - acts as a dagger board and keeps your dinghy on course.
The waterlength is also almost constant with your boats which makes no difference on the sail simply mentioning it for the sake of mentioning it.
Pedro is correct here I'm afraid. Lug sails have a good tack and a less favorable tack.
@@team3383 I work as a boat designer for this type of boat. Also I have many years as a successful dinghy racer up to National level.
I agree that there have been writings about chines and heel over the years.
But they miss the actual experience - when the centreboard or leeboard is pulled up most sailing dinghies just go sideways. It's the experience of all of us.
Heeling the boat might help just a little, but the direction is still strongly and permanently sideways.
Every weekend we have to sail through weed to get to our racing grounds in chined boats. And whether boats are heeled only slightly or a great deal they all end up very downwind of where we leave the beach. That's up to 30 sailors!
Heeling or not heeling - it doesn't work. And there are very excellent sailors with decades of experience in the fleet.
I think you have something there…..I never thought of “good tack/bad tack” before, but what you showed makes sense!
What a fantastic video! Best presentation on the subject I have ever seen. I have sailed a type of sailing canoe in Japan called a Sabai from Okinawa for about 12 years. It's a very strange boat. A shark fishing boat, coated in shark liver oil to preserve and water-proff with sails often dipped in pig's blood also for preservation. Used to be a pure dug-out canoe but now uses three planks as the big trees are all gone. Traditional sabani sailors have no outrigger for support. They are the most unstable boats in the world but after about 4 years of regular practice you can get the balance of it even in strong winds and on the open sea. The rig is a Chinese style (adapted by the Okinawans) junk rig with bamboo stretchers mounted outside the sail. You canot dip the rig and must plan ahead for which side you want to rig on. Without a doubt, and with several hundred years of practice, I can tell you the Okinawans totally agree with you. It is common sense to them that they lose the effort from any sail area before the mast. Furthermore there is more air disturbance in such a situation. To see and learn about the crazy Sabani boats you can Google "Sabani Okinawa". Now I have moved to the south of France and am about to buy an old lug-sailed mackerel boat from Brittany and so I need to learn the lug sail. Your video is great, please keep them coming. Kind regards, English Bill, port of Marseillan
Hi Bill.
Thanks for the info!
My findings are true for my skiff, and I have no doubts about it after hundreds of sailing sessions, many against symmetrical rigs like the toper and Lasers etc.
I believe that with this rig it's really important to have a powerful downhaul. a 4:1 or 6:1 isn't enough, I believe an 8:1 to be the minimum to be able to keep a straight luff in good winds. IMHO some boats rigged with less powerful downhauls perform better on the "bad tack" only because the mast helps stabilize the sail and it's more a case of the "good tack" isn't performing as well as it should due to lack of luff tension, but that's only my opinion.... 😉
@@TheBoatRambler Again you make good sense. There is a lot of chat written online about strengthening the luff to withstand the "more than expected" tension it sometimes needs. I am so eager to try the new boat and lug sail. I remember when I had my first sailing lessons 45 years ago. After only a few days the teacher said... "OK... off you go alone". I wanted to learn more from him, he said "Only your own boat and sails and the wind and sea, and your own humility, can teach you now". ...after that, a lifetime of fun learning by doing. Thanks again.
I like your videos. Greetings from Croatia
Thank you very much!
@@TheBoatRambler I liked your videos about the rigging of the lateen sail. I've never tried to sail on such a boat, although it is also tradition in Croatia, but it is dieing tradition today 😥
You get more sailing from a bad tack. My friend has a very fast power boat he gets his afternoon on the water done in 30 minutes and then he watches the street. Peace and love everyone 💕 Peace and love. 🇹🇹🚣♂️🇯🇴 Rick
that's another way of looking at it! But around here we only ever get 4 hours of sailing max, due to the tides, regardless of how good it performs. So it's a matter of how far will you go before running aground and being stuck in the mud for 6 hours!...😅
That sounds like my golfing philosophy. I get more value for money than anyone else on the golf course 🙂
Thanks for this useful test of a long standing hypothesis. It gives substantial support for the utility of symmetrical rigging and/or use of a dipping lug sail.
Hi Iain!
It was just observation more than a real test but I will use a more scientific method next time! 😉
Buuut, you have an engineer's analytical mind and your analysis makes complete sense.
Thanks Greg.
As I keep sailing my skiff against other boats I am more convinced of my findings.
I would love to revisit this, but with scientific way /data to confirm it. Need someone with a cruiser or a boat with all wind instruments to set a course and measure angle and speed on both tacks... 🤔
Make a few tries keeping same speed on both tacks and check the angle to the wind, and then a few tries keeping the same angle and checking the speed, maybe one day!
Thanks for very good explanation and examples! 👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video. Thanks for the analysis and especially the advice at the end. Cheers
Glad it was helpful! 😉
Nice introspective on this matter, very educational 😁
Thanks André! I'll try to be a bit more precise next time! 😉
Great information, thanks
When teaching marine design at University, we ran some wind tunnel tests on various rigs, and I was interested in how the lug rig and the junk rigs performed on each tack. We found that in both cases, all else being equal, the boats were faster and pointed better on the tack with the mast on the leeward side. I'd suggest that you might look for other differences.
Hi John, thanks for your input. It's an honor to have you join this topic.
It would be really great if you could provide more info on the test conditions:
what kind of lug setup? balanced?
boom or boomless?
fixed or loose footed?
Outhaul adjustments?
What percentage of sail area forward of the mast?
Distance from luff to the mast?
What were the wind speed ranges?
What was the luff tension range applied (downhaul power, 4:1, 6:1, 8:1 or more?)
etc....
PS: I don't quite understand "look for other differences" could you elaborate a bit please?
@@TheBoatRambler Balanced lug, laced foot, proportions, foot one, luff and head one, leech one point eight. Material, very lightweight mylar, wind speed eight knots. These were scale models as our wind tunnel is quite small, so the rigs were 1/5 scale. The principle aim of the testing was to evaluate the drive from several different configurations of rig by area, , and the drive by heeling moment. The information as to the drive on each tack for the balanced lug was a secondary discovery, and one which I'd suspected but was very pleased to have proof of.
The balanced lug by the way had the best ratio of drive to heeling moment which was interesting.
On my own small boats I like to have the foot laced, but use a boom and yard that have a controlled amount of flex, and I use, for a typical sail of say, nine square metres, a four part downhaul with a two part tail which gives me eight to one tension. The aim being that I can control the draft in the sail by flexing the yard and boom with the downhaul, bending those to take material out of the sails belly to flatten it.
I'm intrigued by lugsails, so studying up a bit. I've seen 2 of your videos so far & already learned much!
My boat is an old gunter-rigged Mirror. My goal is to try dinghy cruising. I'm kicking around the idea of a single balanced, boomless lug sail instead of the main & jib, impressed with the apparent ease of handling on Roger Barnes' ilur. No boom to hit you on the head, easy to drop in a squall.. perhaps dispense with the standing rigging....
Hi.
If you want to remove the standing rigging you'll need a different mast than the Mirror's. I don't think that mast is strong enough for a lug sail without having the shrouds in place.
I am revisiting this video because I have exactly the same issue as you do. My bad tack is the one where the sail is pressed against the mast. Despite what Mik says is possible I have not yet achieved it. I lose angle and about 2 knots of speed on the bad tack in around 10 knots of wind.
I need to do some more work on my sheeting arrangement and I can see that I have some sail twist issues when I look at some of the videos I took, so a big part of this is my inexperience, but I am learning heaps thanks to you and Mik Storer and Ross Lillistone.
My experience indicates better boat speed (in rough conditions) when on the 'Good Tack' and better pointing ability on the 'Bad Tack'. I've been sailing dinghies competitively for 64 years.
I respect this...how many times did you sail a GIS against other racing dinghies?
I really like your videos
the axle would just have to be perpendicular to the sail spar at the angle you want the spar. ( see previous comment )
then every tack is a good tack, and you could also go past center, stop in the middle, and rig to sail downwind.
each sail spar end would have it's own side to swing...one end swings on the port side, and one swings on the starboard side.....one swings up, while the other swings down.
keeping it simple and reliable is the best way to go sailing! 😅
@@TheBoatRambler it is simple....but i think it might be an asian sailing rig design.....when i saw a sail boat do that, it was like magic .... and i thought, "how do they do that???" ....just a few minutes of puzzling, and i figured it out, i think....i don't know if that is exactly how they do it, but it makes sence.
@@TheBoatRambler simplest way would be finding the center of the spar...marking your lateen mast for the cut...and drilling a hole in the center of the spar for a large lag bolt and washers..
but i would at least use some epoxy to seal the top of the mast cut, and into the lag hole in the mast.
@@TheBoatRambler that would also reduce mast drag, and lean....And it would lower the boat's center of gravity.....so lopping that upper portion of the mast off would improve performance too.
Still trying to visualize what you are trying to explain.... 🤔
This is why the gaff rig was invented
Great little interesting video..😊👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it 😉
On Scamp I can not find a difference in speed on either tack. I wonder if it is because it has a round mast....a square mast must have decrease laminar flow comparably. Also scamp appears to has more sail forward of the mast. have you experimented with moving the yard and boom more forward? when I"m sailing on your "bad tack" I see two foils. One forward of the mast and one aft. like a jib and a main. the shape of the sail looks pleasant. with how your rig is set up right now to my eye your bad tack doesn't have clean foil lines. hope this can help you. Thanks for posting your videos.
Hi Johann,
I can achieve the same speed on each tack while reaching but the angle at which I sail in relation to the wind will vary.
The only way to see this (without a bunch of electronics aboard) is by sailing quite a few times along side a boat with a symmetrical rig like the Topper. When sailing on my own it's impossible to take any conclusions. It's actually surprising how a lot of ppl dismissed the fact that the best benchmark on this video is the Topper and not the other GIS!!
As for sail balance, I can't just put more sail forward of the mast as each boat has a center of sail area and center of lateral resistance and changing any of these will affect the boat's balance. So if I put more sail forward I will get lee helm.
The tension differences in the downhaul can make a very significant difference in how the leading edge of the sail splits the airflow. I think Mike Storer has found that also. Also if the outhaul downhaul and outhaul are both tensioned more so the sail is flatter, the portion of the sail ahead of the mast will not have such a different angle of attack, and may start to contribute some lift. Perhaps that is why in stronger winds when the sail is tensioned flatter that the good/bad tacks show less of a speed difference. Not an expert - just guessing .
I don't believe that the loss of sail area is as detrimental on the 'bad' tack, as the fact that the luff shape destroys the air flow over the sail. I wonder if flattening the sail draft while on the 'bad' tack might help some.
Hi Denis!
the loss of 10% of sail area is significant.
As for flattening the sail on the bad tack I think it does it automatically since the sail on that tack needs to go around the mast it forces it to be flatter already, if that makes sense.... could try a bit flatter I guess... or less!! 🤔
@@TheBoatRambler what happens if you put more belly in on bad tack then? V. interesting clip, thanks. Watching all with interest as pondering if a ‘stock’ GIS sail could work on a larger heavier boat, (to replace current Bermudan main), but using beefed-up spars.
Thanks Teo! Thanks for yet another great video. My Welsford 6-metre Whaler is a standing lug yawl, and I rig the main and mizzen so that their 'bad' tacks are opposite. Who knows whether good/bad tacks work differently between standing and balanced lugs? And my mizzen is a sprit-boom leg-o'-mutton anyway. I've never measured performance on each tack, but maybe I'll get around to doing that some time. The main point is being out on the water having fun. Cheers!
Hey Tony!
You are 100% correct! it doesn't matter which boat or sail as long as you are having fun! 😉
Love the look of a lug sail. Are you able to tug on the front and dip the front-top of the sail around the mast when you tack?
Hi Simon.
this is a balanced lug sail arrangement. to dip the sail it would have to be a dipping lug instead.
there's reason gaff rig caught on.
How would you describe the lug sail in tailwinds? Is it easier or softer than a bermuda rigged boat to jibe?
By changing the side of the yard, would this rig type be now called the Balance Dipping Lug sail?
I don't think that would work because the boom would still be on the other side. 🤔
Dipping lug, balanced lug or standing lug? If you mentioned it, I missed it.
Hi, my GIS has a balanced Lug setup. On a dipping lug there would be no "bad tack" since the sail would dip and swing to the other side with every tack.
@@TheBoatRambler
Thanks for your answer.
Olá, nestas coisas de velejar, o que sei é pegar o vento e com o leme tentar levar o barco a bom porto, mas ir contra o vento é que obra!
Abraço like 142 :D
Boas amigo João!
Velejar contra o vento só aos zig-zags! É uma questão de fisica e prática. De certeza que apanhavas num instante! 😉
Abraço!
Good video, and the first I've seen attempting to make a direct comparison. However, I don't think your results are conclusive. There are other differences, including the weight, position, and ability of the two sailors, and I doubt that the boats are absolutely identical. If you had swapped boats and done the same comparison and got the same results it would have been more conclusive. As others have pointed out, you are sailing with an unusually big draught (belly) in your sail in the light winds. It seems to work for you. My own boat is also balanced lug. I find she has a good tack and a bad tack, but it depends on the wind, the surface conditions, and most of all, what mood she's in. On a windy day, the so-called "bad tack" helps to keep the sail flat and it becomes the "good tack". On a windy day in a non-planing boat, you are limited to hull speed, and once you can achieve that, any theoretical "inefficiency" in the sail is irrelevant. On a day of low winds, I find the biggest single factor is putting my weight in the right place and sitting still so as not to disturb the airflow over the sail. Thanks for posting the video. Genuinely interesting.
Hi Mike!
Thanks for your input!
By the way the GIS has a planing hull.
On windy days to keep the sail flatter I crank on the downhaul and pull on the outhaul a bit. It seems to work ok.
On light winds the drag is irrelevant as the boat is moving slow but a big draught helps increase the speed of the wind over the sail on the leeward side thus increasing lift, that's why I sail with such a "big belly " on my sail in light winds. 🤔
None of us ever sailed specifically to test this theory, this was just observation of differences in speed and angle we saw over a few months in many outings.
I might make a video this season trying to explore this in more detail...😉
Amigo una pregunta, cuanta resina epoxi usaste para todo el trabajo sobre tu bote.....
Ola Tara!
I used around 10-11Kg (epoxy + hardener) 😉
@@TheBoatRambler ok yo compre 5 k .me va a faltar 6 +
Make sure to cover all plywood and other wood with epoxy as per the plans. you don't want water infiltration ruining your work! 😉
Just an observation. You seem to have much more draught "belly" in your sail than the other GIS. Any reason for this? Would that influence the good tack bad tack comparison?
Hi! Good observation!
In light winds I tend to set my sail with a lot of depth. It seems to work better for my GIS. Maybe because my boat is heavier (heavier plywood and I keep a lot of stuff permanently aboard) or I just think it does...something else I can track on the GPS next times I go sailing...🤔
I can't quantify how much the sail depth affects each tack but it obviously didn't change the fact that we were BOTH slower on the "bad tack" than the other on the "good tack" regardless of the difference in sail depth. 😉
what are those asian sail rigs, that flip, called ??? .... i was thinking, why not have a double tapered bearing in a lateen sail spar, where the top of a shorter mast has an axle pointing up and fore ??? ... if it was a small boat, you could lift the spar up, put it on the axle, and wrench on a nut ...... two sheets through two blocks on the bow...one attached to each end of the spar.
Hi Eric!
There is a rig, the dipping lug, which can dip the sail to the opposite tack when needed. But it takes time and to be honest...unless it's a loooong journey it's not worth it.
@@TheBoatRambler the bearing would be in the middle of the spar....it's a "rotating spar lateen" ....that's the best name i can think for it.
@@TheBoatRambler i don't have a boat yet.......so i would have to make a model to show people how it works in a video.....but you could actually make the first rotating spar lateen rig....should i make a model? and make a video?
@@TheBoatRambler it would tack very easy and fast....the sail sheet could stay, self tacking....it's the way it flips...and that could be a loop.
@@TheBoatRambler it would have to be a symmetrical triangle sail though...same length from clue to either end of the spar.
Teo,
Thank you for another great video!
I have never measured it, although what seems obvious you have given here as proof of the difference between balance lugger rig tacks.
Someday I have to use instruments because I have the impression that on the "bad tack" (in mine it is left, port side, tack) my GIS walks a bit closer to the wind. But that's just an impression, so it needs to be measured.
Honestly, I would like to rely on your opinion on this matter, because I do not really want to use measuring instruments. ;-)
Best regards
well I was under the same impression too before I started sailing with other boats regularly. The "bad tack it seems easier to control but then you look at the result and...
Muito bom... e faz todo o sentido...
devíamos era fazer um mastro arqueado para testar eheheheh
ABR e Bons Ventos
ahaha talvez um dia me ajudes com isso! 😉
I've never sailed a lug rig and am in the process of acquiring materials for my own GIS. I certainly can see how the mast affects the shape of the sail depending on which side the sail is. Shape is so critical to any sail's performance. I think you must be correct. At the same time a true test would eliminate all of the variables such as occupant weight, position of passengers, and even hull weight as you indicated in your construction videos that you used birch instead of okoume. You thought your hull would be as much as 20% heavier. Finally, with little separation between boats at the start the leeward sail will always be slower as the windward boat is blocking airflow. Your test was over a long enough distance so that probably overcame this starting difference. A question I would have regarding the birch. Have you found any signs of water intrusion or de lamination after the first summer? I have easy access to Baltic Birch ply and it is beautiful. For a 6mm sheet it is in the $50 range. I can also source the preferred Okoume but a 6mm sheet of that is around $160! I hope the birch is holding up well! LOL
Hi Bruce!
the weights, materials etc are a constant for each boat on both tacks. They have no influence in determining if there is a good or a bad tack.
Now if you want to quantify it then you are absolutely right. 😉
Regarding the Birch Ply I haven't noticed any water ingression on the inside/varnished side. On the Outside we will have to see once I bring it home for some maintenance. But as far as I know the glue properties on this ply are identical to the marine ply. The downside is the weight and the repaired knots which are present and visible on some of the face plies. Also small voids are in spec for this ply but being completely encapsulated in epoxy and having 5 plies it should not matter on the GIS build.
There are too many variables, such as wind speed and outhaul tension to allow a worthwhile comparison. How many years of dinghy sailing experience do you have?
I've been sailing since I was a kid but only sailed the GIS a few hundred times in 4 years.
regarding the variables...I think people concentrate their analysis mostly in the difference in performance between the two GIS while to me it's the comparing against the topper that says it all. The setting on my GIS was a constant, I always sail it my way, and the Topper doesn't have a good or bad tack so the difference between boats/tacks is clear. I didn't reach this conclusion in one or two outings. It was an observation of hundreds if not thousands of hours sailing my GIS against other boats.
But this is only my opinion regarding my boat.
@@TheBoatRambler I'm interested in your analysis, but like Michael Storer, my experience has been exactly the opposite of yours - i.e. my pointing ability with the sail on the windward side of the mast ('bad tack') is better than on the 'good tack'. Boat-speed seems to be the same, but if there is a reduction, it is outweighed by the gain to windward.
When the sail is on the leeward side of the mast ('good tack') boat speed and power to punch through waves is better, but the pointing ability is reduced -slightly.
It seems that sail set-up is where we differ. You appear to have very little balance area forward of the mast, and quite a full sail draft. My boats generally have a much larger balance area, so the mast is back in what is the area of separated flow anyway. High downhaul tension and lack of sag in the luff is important. Lastly, I use a 'yard hauling parrel' which snugs the halyard attachment point up against the mast in a positive manner.
@@jetta1342 Michael made that comment based on the Oz Goose fleet., which mostly use very simple downhaul arrangements. I believe the difference is exactly there. I don't see many lug sails with a 8:1 downhaul like mine which allows me to put a huge tension on the luff as wind increases. without it I believe the mast on the "bad tack" actually helps create a stable edge on the sail and makes it work better than a good tack with a flapping luff. But this is just my opinion...
Interesting! We have experienced the opposite with a friend, and GPS tracks confirmed our observation with my OZ Racer. You are much more experienced in sailing than I am, and videos confirm your observation. Assuming that we are both right, I guess my sail does not have enough downhaul tension, or my home made tarp sail has too much rocker or it is just stretched. Waiting for other opinions :)
Hi István!
I'm a noob regarding anything related to lug sails. The GIS is the first boat with a lug sail that I ever sailed so...
But I have sailed many times with Bruno and Pedro and this is what I could see.
Even just today we all went out to Rat Island and I could go all the way in just one tack...the good tack. and yes, I got there ahead of all of them although as Pedro was soloing this time, he didn't come too far back.
Maybe it's a Sail/Boat specific thing...
I'm sure there will be a lot of people with different opinions! 😉
Hi István!
could you tell me what is the outhaul ratio on your OZ racer?
Thanks a bunch!
@@TheBoatRambler I wrote you on FB!
@ thanks István!
There is more going on here than simply good an bad tack. That doesn't mean your wrong about that though. Most of the time when your showing the bad tack your also in a disadvantage wind from the other boats and when you are showing the good tack, your in an advantaged position. You see, a sailboat is deflecting the the wind. Changing the local wind direction around it in the direction a a knock on that tack and a lift on the opposite tack. It also slows the wind speed slightly. So, if you are level, overlapped or aft & whether you are anywhere from their windward to lee side you will experience a knock and be unable to point as high as them & you will have less wind speed than they do. So, you will be disadvantaged in both wind pressure and pointing ability.
If you are in front on the same tack anywhere from their lee bow to windward bow, you will have the advantage of wind pressure and pointing ability over the other boat. So this makes it difficult to make valid comparisons between boats that are close to each other.
However, just thinking abut airflow over sails, I think you are correct, because the mast is a big disrupter of airflow. The layer of air that is affected by the skin friction of the sail is called the boundary layer. When a sail is attached to a mast, the boundary layer typically separates form the sail, but reattaches further downstream, forming a "separation bubble". This tends to happen on both sides but reattaches more easily on the windward side than the lee side. If it does not attach on the lee side, this is a stall. Racers place tell tails on their sails to indicate whether flow is attached or not and that helps adjust the sail shape to maximum efficiency. Anyway, the point is that on the bad tack, I would expect a large area of boundary layer separation to occur around the mast area, particularly on the lee side which will spoil both pointing and power. However, on the good tack, the mast is mostly in free air away from the sail, so it will not generate a separation bubble on the sail. So I expect you will have more efficiency on that tack.
There are, or at least have been double ended lateen rigged boats designed to reverse direction so that the sail is always on the lee side of the mast. They change tacks by simply reversing rather than going about. They use 2 steering boards, no rudder. Have you ever seen anything like that, I have only read about it? Maybe its historic.
Regards,
Ken
I Ken!
Thanks for the great comment.
Regarding wind disruption have a look at 0:33 , I come from behind on the “good tack” (actually tacked to rejoin the other boats and despite being aft of both boats and to leeward of the topper I went past both of them. 50 meters lead in 30 seconds… the topper had clear air all the time and still couldn’t keep up.
1:40, Pedro is on his good tack now and to leeward of the topper. While he couldn’t even keep up with us before he is actually gaining ground on the topper now, despite being to leeward.
2:06 Pedro on the good tack and me on the bad tack…Pedro overtook me, then we tack and despite me being on his shadow I overtake him under his sail even though I had to go around the topper. He was on the bad tack with clean air and had no chance there!
3:19 Bruno was way ahead and had no interference on wind anymore…on my good tack I gained a lot to windward and crossed his wake only a couple of meters away from his transom.
On my bad tack I couldn’t point as high and lost so much I ended up quite a lot to leeward and on bad wind.
My conclusions were taken after dozens of outings together with the topper. This video shows only a few.
I got a lot of comments on FB like “it’s not conclusive” “you and Pedro should swap boats”, “try your rig on Pedro’s boat”, “There is a difference in weight between the two GISs”, “maybe you and Pedro sail differently” etc etc…
It really surprised me that people dismissed the most important thing in this test:
The Topper is THE benchmark!! It is symmetrical in every way!! And none of the GISs could keep up with the Topper on the bad tack and both GISs could take the Topper on the good tack! Regardless of ALL the differences between the two GISs.
Different boats will behave differently but imho the boats with balanced lugs which sail best with the sail to windward of the mast do so due to lack of downhaul tension. When on this tack the mast provides straight edge/support for the sail so it doesn’t luff so they point better. With the sail to leeward of the mast if the downhaul isn’t powerful enough the sail’s luff will “flap” in strong winds when trying to point high and it will perform worse than on the other tack!! ( and no, a 4:1 or 6:1 isn’t powerful enough, GISs have 8:1 and more, and other racing dinghies have 16:1)
I still believe that if the sail was better to windward of the mast there would be no need for “dipping sails”…
Hope it makes sense…Just my two cents anyway! 😉
Regards,
Teo
You would have had better sail shape if you had slacked your lazyjacks more
I wonder what would be the result with a warram wing sail, the sail has a big pocket and slide on the mast, this reduce turbulence as the flow is smoth on both sides.
Then you add as small self tacking jib to it with maybe a small bowsprit.
Só falta postar em portugues........😊😊😊😊👍👍👍👍👍@velejandoporai
Ahahh ás vezes sai! 😁
Try a dipping lugsail.
You can't have it all in life, theres always a cost-benefit analysis to everything. Lug sails have the advantage of being very simple and easy to use, but they do have the "good tack, bad tack" disadvantage. If it's a problem, then you can go to a gaff sail, but then there's more complications. But really it doesn't seem like such a big deal
Your sailing, taking the free ride. Does everything in life have to be a race?
It's not a problem at all!
The advantages of this simple rig more than make for the bad tack! 😉