@@iknownothing-m8c 100% Luna forms strong bonds with Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny, then proves her bravery in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries and later endures the strained relationship with her father, Xenophilius Lovegood, highlighting the sacrifices made in opposing dark forces. Luna's participation in the Battle of Hogwarts underlines her dedication to the fight against Voldemort, and her post-war life as a wizarding naturalist and marriage to Rolf Scamander reflect her continued passion and ability to find happiness after enduring personal challenges. Really good arc in the books, sadly the films didnt give her the justice she deserved
@@iknownothing-m8ci don’t remember luna getting much of an arc. sure she had a strong character which got stronger as the books progressed, but there wasn’t much of an arc to it (as far as I remember it’s been a while since I read the books)
I think Everything Everywhere All at Once set a pretty good example of what the modern use of the trope can look like. Waymond has a lot of those personality traits and his optimistic, kind and at times a little goofy ways are framed as naive and silly in the beginning of the movie. Later on it is revealed, that those were intentional strategies to deal with a mostly cold and cruel world. While I do think they could have gone even more in depth with his character, it was really nice to see those character traits seen as valid and important.
Agreed but that said, not every character needs to be complex and deep. Throughout the history of cinema, it's not uncommon for a supporting character to be a mere supporting character in a handful of scenes for a reason - they are who they are as mere character foil, comic relief, or to push the plot forward with certain information. If we go too far down this path of looking down on one-dimensional characters then people are going to end up trying too hard to complicate side characters that never needed to be. Sometimes less is more for a reason.
I agree that optimism is often devalued or sort of folklorized into a general sense of quirkiness instead of really validated by the narrative as something more profoundly good, and I suppose that is MPDG's adjacent, but I wouldn't classify Waymond as a male example of the trope... I think Waymond lacks the insufferable mystique or aura of mystery that the Manic Pixie Dream Girls are written (often by male writers) to embody to make them some sort of pseudo-riddle for the main male character to solve throughout his arc... Waymond is just framed as sincerely good, and kind, and giving, and as disregarded by Michelle Yeoh's character because he doesn't have the proactive, agressiveness that is associated in most cultures with traditional masculinity... I don't remember Cara Delevingne in Paper Towns, or Kirsten Dunst in Elizabethtown as being framed as weak in the eyes of the story's male protagonist... The MPDG are never seen as weak by the male character, because they have this aura of mystery around them... In my humble opinion
A movie I absolutely love that deals with this topic a lot is "Ruby Sparks." It's about a writer whose dream girl in his own story comes to life and is his girlfriend. For much of the movie, she basically is exactly what he wants, then he starts to get upset when she becomes interested in things/people that are not him, so he pulls her back. She becomes a fleshed out, real person, and he refuses to accept it and uses his writing to basically trap her until he realizes that what he's doing is messed up and wrong, and that he needs to let her be her own person. It's a great movie that I feel like not many people have seen.
Ted Lasso is arguably a really great subversion of the trope. And they made the manic pixie the main character and anchored his arc to his son and his personal struggles instead of a blank slate glum love interest. And everyone he impacted had their own distinct character arcs, and human wants, fears, etc. Such a lovely and optimistic, yet grounded show as a result.
But the 'manic pixie' isnt the main character of a show or film. The main problem with the 'manic pixie' is they are a prop to motivate the protagonist. So you could say that Juno Temple's Keeley character is a manic pixie that's been subverted (a model who isnt vacuous), but Ted by definition is a fully rounded main character. if he wasn't the show would just be bad
The "adorkable" girl still exists in Disney movies where it is unfortunately so overused that it has become obnoxious. They use both ends mentioned in the video, but the absolute best characters will have elements of both like you said: Mulan in the animated original is a great example. Brave and strong and dedicated, but still caring, kind, thoughtful and nuanced enough to be believable. I love that the ending also implies a romance but never solidifies it, so both "camps" can have their way.
@@harpieahouse6246 why do you people write garbage comments like these? Why cant you soeak about female characters like you actually like them instead of being condescending
I appreciate that more Manic Pixies are getting properly fleshed out, and that there's more to them than initially meets the eye, like Summer Finn or Penny Lane. John Green in particular is fond of deconstructing this trope, by pointing out that the male lead didn't really know his quirky love interest.
they aren't unrealistic at all as girls like that do exist its just in alot of movies with the manic pixie dream girl trope the girl is never really fleshed out enough to feel real but they do exist @@Dan55888
Sorry if I came off like that bro it’s just that nobody should look to films for realism. It also really depends on what kind of movie is in discussion .
One thing about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl that gets disregarded is the fact that not every character has to have character development taking place during the timespan of the movie. Manic Pixie Dream Girls usually have a good amount of their self-actualization done before the events of the movie. Oftentimes, grandparents and mentors also have that sort of prior self-actualization, even if these characters- especially mentors- aren't necessarily bubbly and optimistic.
It makes more sense if you understand that the critics of MPDG are often sad people who can't abide a story that doesn't hew to their own value system in which all of the women characters are driven and don't seek male attention. All women must be strong, or no woman can be strong.
@@MrJeffcoley1 Also "the wise old cowboy" who just happens to be sitting at the bar next to the protagonist when they're at their lowest point, offers a bit of wisdom and perspective, and then is gone when the protagonist turns back around.
It’s also important to note that Ramona has a full character arc in the comic. It’s not as fleshed out as Scott’s, but she still has one. It’s likely her arc was cut from the film both due to time and the changes from comic to film, since the comic takes place over several months, while the movie’s timeframe is significantly shorter than that. And of course there is anime Ramona who gets a full and complete arc (which is what she deserves) due to being the protagonist there. While clearly inspired by the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope, Ramona only actually qualifies as one in the movie.
Okay but Emily Blunt’s character in the Day After Tomorrow had the appearance of being this cold hearted killer but she had lots of depth as the movie progressed.
@@magnusprime962 True. Margo from Paper Towns was 100% a manic pixie dream girl and not just "a victim of the abuse of the term" as the video tried to imply, but they were right about Amélie. She was just a quirky female character in a quirky movie.
There's a really good flavorwire article called "‘Eternal Sunshine’ Destroyed the Manic Pixie Dream Girl Stereotype Before It Even Existed," referring of course to "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind." Excellent article.
I saw another video essay on Manic Pixie Dream Girls which framed them as Neurodivergent girls among other things. As someone with ADHD I think if you want to have a MPDG and give her depth and motivation just look to typical challenges ADHD people face because I relate a lot to this archetype and it might be an interesting angle to explore.
@@Apocalymoni don't think it was really a video essay but more of what was being said on Tok Tik because I remember hearing that too but when I was absolutely addicted to that app. But yea basically a lot of them are just people with very distinct autism or /ADHD trates like that just like one trate ×100 depending on the person so it doesn't quite seen real if that makes sense. But I would be interesting if one of the characters came out to have one of them but I just don't think that'd be a thing lol
In my opinion, giving a character random challenges from a very specific disorder isn’t that great of a tactic. I don’t think anyone should work a character into a trope, but instead let that character be something unique. Besides the MPDG already has many “quirks”. There’s a lot to choose from. Give the girl/guy a personality fault, stem insecurities from that fault, and then stem a life goal from those insecurities. From that life goal, think about some smaller goals they’ll need to accomplish first. And that would be character depth
@@KJ7Tillymann Yeah but you're talking to a generation who spend more time on the internet than with real people and believe that any quirk is a sign of being "neurodivergent" because they've rarely interacted with humans and fail to realize that literally everyone has personality traits or habits that make them distinct.
it’s so funny how many people can’t seem to understand the simple concept of POV. if the story is told from a certain POV then obviously you’re going to see the other characters through that lens and obviously they’re not going to be as fleshed out as the main character is.
And it's only a problem when the POV is male. If the protagonist is a woman and the male love interest is shallow and underdeveloped, no one says a thing.
Except in a romcom there's more than 1 main character. The girl shouldn't be a shell of a trope. They should be fleshed out. It's called having a good character and not a vehicle for the plot.
@@kona7043except films that use MPDG while categorised under Romcom by the Studio's distribution aren't actually romcom but explore other themes in the guise of Romcom. I haven't seen all the movies that the video talked about but movies like 500 days of Summer or Scott Pilgrim do exactly that. The story isn't about two characters falling in love where both characters are lead but about the main character (Scott Pilgrim) or a commentary on love and expectations through the protagonist (500 days) In this case the fleshing out of the M0DG character isn't necessarily as they are only a side character and a troupe to further the plot and story.
Little random, but as an autistic girl I always admired the Manic Pixie Dream Girls because they were liked for their weirdness and ability to unmask but then it became weird to be that "unrealistic" when it comes to stimming, not getting embarrassed and seeing different perspectives that a lot of people. Then I grew up(undiagnosed), into a women who when she masks is stoic, standoffish and quiet unless I open up. It's just interesting what keeps getting dubbed as boring tropes when its like... oops lol that's me. Good news is that my husband is also a reformed Manic Pixie Dream Boy so our conversations literally never stop or get boring :) Great video!
One example of a quirky, optimistic young woman, who IS a fully-fleshed out protagonist is Anne from Netflix's show "Anne with an E". I haven't read any of the books the series is based on (I mostly read fantasy and sci-fi book series as a kid), but I think the show does a great job of portraying a somewhat realistically awkward and whimsical neurodivergent girl who has a very fully fleshed out backstory. I don't think she would be considered a MPDG (not the least because she's a bit young and, again, she's the protagonist), but she is, perhaps, the sort of MPDG-adjacent character that I think might be an improved version. Perhaps we could do with some more stories that feature "quirky" women as strong protagonists with deeper context and more nuance to their personalities, thoughts, and feelings. (For the record, as a neurodivergent woman, I felt SO seen watching "Anne with an E" and was a teary mess during many relatable scenes that felt like they could've been pulled from my own childhood. This is how I _almost_ felt as a young adult in the late aughts and '10s watching movies with MPDG characters. Almost.)
Anne even dyes her hair green! I would add characters like Jo in Little Women, Kierra Knightly's character in Colette, Florence Foster Jenkins. The manic Pixie Dream Girl has been time travelled to the past where women make up a lot more of the audience so she can have depth and an actual story!
Yeah but Ray “Skywalker” really is a Mary Sue. Other characters, like Wonder Woman and Black Widow, are NOT Mary Sues. Wonder Woman represents the aspirational hero archetype, as do Superman and Captain America. She gives us hope and sets a moral standard for us to live up to. Black Widow is a femme fatale, but one with a complex inner life and real human emotions.
I really think the whole Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope isn't as shallow as some people make it out to be. Sure, they might not have the most intricate individual Story Lines and often serve as more of a plot device for the main character, but they've got way more personality and passion than most other character types. Not everyone in real life has this deep background or clear-cut goals. And it's not like everyone needs to be a hundred layers deep. I get that relying solely on this trope (like some other ones these days) would be a letdown for Hollywood and society, but there's always this rebellious vibe, like, "I define myself," which I think has a feminist edge. Take someone like Ramona Flowers - she's got more personality in my eyes than all the female Marvel characters combined. I'm cool with characters sometimes just being about their personality and a straightforward life story. In many ways, it's actually helped them become more well-rounded as they get the space to grow. Your perspective is super interesting, and you bring up some solid points. But the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope has different sides, and there are instances where these characters have way more depth and personality than what meets the eye. Diversity in characters is a must, and it'd be a downer if one trope dominated the scene. The variety of female characters with different personalities, goals, and backgrounds adds to the richness and diversity in media.
After reading a lot of discussions about character archetypes, especially MPDGs and Mary Sues, I've personally concluded that trying to criticize characters using these types of labels is unproductive. People often disagree about what the qualifications are, rarely apply the same logic to male characters, and there's too much emphasis on trying to match the label to the character rather than trying to imagine the character on a deeper level and discuss that. I don't think the labels are inherently bad or useless, but the overuse of them as broad criticism is.
What you said. And alot of the times things are made political when they shouldn't be. This applies to many things these days. Not pointing fingers at anyone in specific. Every side can make things political at times.
Can we call the male equivalent the "Wacky Hunky Dreamboat?" Also, I feel like Iman Villani's "Ms. Marvel" is the perfect blending of MPDG and SFL (strong, female lead) that we need. She geeks out when meeting her heroes, has a hard time coming to grips with her coming of age, but still gets in there and kicks ass.
YES IMAN VELLANI LET'S GO!!! (I am Pakistani and Muslim and have brown skin to boot, how can I not appreciate her? I about died when I saw that the first page of the Ms. Marvel comic was literally her AVENGERS FANFICTION)
7:52 Women haven't been used as "just props" in US cinema for eons now, if ever was this was the case. As far back as The 1930s, Hollywood was filled with strong and resourceful leading ladies
Ke Quan’s character in everything everywhere all at once is a manic pixie dream guy who has depth. First he seems like an airhead goofball but then we get to see how he ticks
Not every character needs to have a deep, fleshed-out personality. Characters are largely defined by their role in the story. Art is about focus. Archetypes are an efficient shorthand which help the viewer focus on what the artist considers important.
So I actually wrote my dissertation on this topic. One key factor for a proper MPDG is that she is only ever seen through the eyes of the male protagonist. The story is his and all we see of her is what he sees of her. Technically if we see her perspective and follow any of her story, even if it's dumb, she isn't fully a MPDG. That's obviously problematic (when it becomes the strandard for women characters) but there's a lot of I love about the MPDG that I hope comes back. She was quirky, and often very confortable with her sexuality. She is normally confident even if she chooses to be quiet. She is positive and fun and creative. I think if the film industry could dare to give a her another chance but with a proper story, we could see some really great films. And maybe she could even go on to represent the girls who "rock a lot of pokadots" in a more meaningful way.
Good points. Also, if the MPDG isn't the main character, to complain of a lack of character arc or "inner life" is a cheap shot: **few** supporting characters get this; they're supporting. :) FWIW, I love the Claire character. She actually has depth and an inner life: perhaps critics are not astute enough to see this. :)
Yeah but not many movie has multiple pov. Ussualy we see only from protagonist or at best antagonist. Take a look at sex in the city movie, Mr. Big isn't realy fleshed out. Or take a look mean girl movie... who is the male character again? Weird, I never heard anyone demand more fleshed out tritagonist male character. My point is you can't fleshed out all characters in 2 hours runtime, and that's fine.
@@ryanbarrows2592 I haven't watched that film in years but from what I remember she wouldn't be a MPDG because of how depressed and messed up she is, plus you follow her journey to recovery too. Really MPDG show up, say something inspirational, and then disappear
No they are not. Cosplayers, especially cosplayer women, hate nerd guys, at least if they know they are pretty enough to exploit losers with skimpy costumes
@@charlespuruncajas9663 yep, it's an easy life for any woman who has a thinner figure... instant built in simp economy they can exploit while wanting nothing to do with the actual fans or content of their cosplay, as long as it is an unrealistic fanservice costume THOSE are the characters they just so happen to love...
@@Dan55888no I’ve met dedicated female cosplayers who spend thousands of hours and dollars on their cosplays. They do it because the craft is fun such as learning to link chainmail, figuring out foam smithing, or even just trying to sew in general. It’s a very involved art form. I understand there are some people are like who you describe but that’s just a vocal minority. You can’t discount the majority who actually have fun cosplaying and want to become their favorite character. It’s not hard to find legit female cosplayers on RUclips who document their craft and thought processes
If anything it could be said that Cameron Crowe truly honed and defined the architype starting with Phoebe Cates in "Fast Times...", then again with Renee Zellweger in "Jerry Maguire" and finally with Penny Lane in "Almost Famous" that all led to the Kirsten Dunst character in "Elizabethtown".
You make a good point. That role or dynamic was present in all of his movies up to then, and the critic putting a handle on it gave it its final shape.
Just like in real life, manic pixie dream girls get bored with stability, safety and peace. That's where they all went. You got comfortable with each other, and then she left because, butterflies.
I really thought that Netflix's "Blue Eyed Samurai" did a phenomenal job of creating a badass character, whilst simultaneously maintaining the emotional content of sed character. The semi-androgynous aspect of the plot really helped to push the story forward, and contributed significantly to the character arc as a whole. Thanks for another awesome video, Nerdstalgic!
Maybe it’s just me, but I wouldn’t describe Jess from New Girl as an exact manic pixie dream girl, though she does carry a lot of similar traits. She definitely starts the story there as well, but I’d argue she grows into a fully fleshed out character, as we he see deal with plenty of emotional states
Speaking of "the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction" we saw something very similar thing happen in the 90s. Back then, they tried to course-correct decades of poorly-written female characters and it seems the answer they came to was "the problem is that they're being written as female characters" and figured giving them traits mostly associated with male characters would fix it. Mostly in the form of the character being quick to anger and using violence as their first response. Which, even if they were male characters, is psychopathic behaviour and probably not what was intended.
You can tell a character is like this if the actor playing her could be a man and there would be no difference. I think a lot of the time these parts are written as men and then they just decide to switch the character to female without changing anything. I think this is a 2010s to today phenomenon though. I can't think of any 90s female characters that act like men.
This is just the good old "women are always victims" theme. The MPDG-thing (or adorkable) overcome the stereotype that women always have to be serious, adult, motherly and beautiful, which is a stereotype which also allegedly victimizes women. Today the "strong female character" is meant to do that, but is also a one dimensional stereotype. In reality there are many stereotypes for men and women in stories and they are modern for a while. Whereas almost nobody discusses the male stereotypes today the female stereotypes are always a very big thing showing discrimination.
It seems to be some kind of an attack on femininity. The manic pixie girl is your typical normal indie chick; there is nothing particularly unrealistic about it, including traits like optimism and quips. I don't understand what is "shallow" about this as they are generally shown to have hobbies and interests, and in fact are more individuated than the typical character. I guess anything attractive must be destroyed and things must be rendered arid.
Yes! I was wondering if she was going to be included. However, she is more realistic because she is actually destructive and doesn’t care about the damage that she does. This is a far more accurate representation of a lot of the “quirky” girls I’ve known in real life. But I suppose there is autistic/ADHD quirky and borderline/bipolar/narcissist quirky. Films stayed with a very fantasy version of mental instability.
This is simply an intellectual look at the archetype. It's okay to enjoy the character. People tend to look too deeply into it. Oh, this is sexist. Oh, this is one dimensional. Like...people...it's a fucking character. They aren't real people....
I think they started dying out when people tried to shape their personalities to be quirky like them irl, and we got the term "pick me boy/girl." When you force the quirkiness or make it your whole personality it's no longer endearing like in the movies and just becomes annoying
They were replaced with the somehow stronger and smarter than the male "protagonist" without even trying girl boss who is aggressively antagonistic and hijacks a film or television show and becomes the main character, for the fiftieth time in a row, then the studio and actors complain when they lose the audience.
The worst thing that can happen is for someone to be appealing to the opposite sex. Good thing they shut down the MPDG industrial complex before people started having fulfilling real life relationships with less conflict.
Most female characters are written as men. The girl boss trope has taken over. I guess the only way to empower women is to write for them as if they're male.
I guess male creators writing the female character like any other male character is the only way to keep oneself from being aroused with one own character in order to avoid that personal ideal girl self fulfillment trap.
@@viviangarcia5696Aren't most popular female characters that fit under the category of being like men written by women? Rey, Carol Danvers, She-Hulk, others, I'm pretty sure women wrote them to fulfill a girlboss fantasy or agenda.
@@mangaas I was talking about bad female writers. From what I interpreted from vivian's reply, they think that the action of making female characters like men is something employed by male writers so they don't get "aroused" (weird word to use, but ok) by said female characters, which led to me asking my question because to my knowledge, those types of female characters, or at the very least the more popular ones, are in fact written women for the sake of their own fantasy.
True. But then it is easier to flesh out characters in a show compared to a 2 hour movie. I think most good shows have complex characters that more fleshed out. And the longer time also allows the characters to breathe and develop naturally over a period of time.
I think the key with a MPDG is that they can't JUST be that; they have to have reasons behind what they are, and dimensions beyond it. Take Holly Golightly, for example (yes, I know she's retroactive, but still). She's quirky and fun and adorable and likes to do crazy things; she fits the standard archetype very well (although she's got much better fashion sense than most), but we learn quite a fair amount about her besides that. We hear about her childhood and meet people from her past; we get to see little moments that develop her personality (for example, she likes to play guitar), but, perhaps most importantly, she's not just there to get the repressed male lead out of his shell. Her life is ALSO not working, like, at all, and it takes the male lead returning the favor to finally turn things around. The key to making the Manic Pixie Dream Girl work is to make her a GIRL, a person, a human - develop her PAST the eccentricities; don't make them the sole point of her character, and you can make her as fun and quirky as you like.
Yeah, and there's also the more obvious fact: The actresses who were once renown for portraying MPDG have all aged out of those roles. Kate Winslet and Nat Portman are both in their 40s now, with Winstead, Dunst, and ZD all being in their late 30s. This was a trope reflective of an era in cinematic history that was doomed to s short life span. For an apt comparison, we need look no further than 'roided out, frequently martial arts heavy action heroes of The 80s and very early 90s.... By the middle of the latter decade, tastes had changed, and these guys were all nearing or over 40. Even if the market was still craving gallons of more Segal, Van Damme, Arnie, Stallone*, etc etc, none of these fellas would've been physically capable of doing that shit to the extent that they were a decade earlier. Bruce Willis survived, on account of the fact that he really was a strong actor, and Chuck Norris re-invented himself for TV. The rest were consigned to straight to video flicks by time The 90s were drawing to a close, with only Stallone enjoying a career resurgence in the late 2000s In a similar fashion, Kate Winslet seems to have successfully transitioned out of MPDG roles and into different types of roles. Portman's going to have a tough time, as she's never been a particularly versatile actress to begin with, and ZD has never shown a whole lot of range either. The jury is still out on Dunst and Winstead, though I'm quite fond of both, and wish them well
Sure, but at the end of the day, a type's a type; it's not tied down to a specific set of actors or actresses. There's nothing stopping a new generation of women from being cast as Manic Pixie Dream Girls, should they come back into vogue. I mean, to put this into perspective, let's take another example. Back in the '30's, the director Howard Hawks became well-known for featuring a certain type of female characters in his films: tough-talking, one-of-the-guys types who still kept an air of sophisticated femininity to them; the 'Hawksian woman', as the type came to be known. A number of well-known actresses more or less based their careers around such roles, such as Katherine Hepburn and Lauren Bacall. Neither Hawks nor any of his leading ladies are around anymore, may they all rest in peace, but even though Hawksian women are a little thin on the ground these days, you do still see them in films from time to time; John Carpenter, apparently, is known for his love of them. If THAT character type continues to survive, almost a hundred years after its initial burst in popularity, surely the MPDG has a chance in the long run - it's only been a relative handful of years since they stopped showing up, after all. @@MechaJutaro
Everyone thinks it's sexist now so we made men manic pixie dream boys and himbos. The problem is that women do embody the archetype and men dont as much. I think this Era is going to be much more nuanced than the last.
I think the manic pixie dream girl can be written properly because I feel like I’ve met her. She’s 25, she just finished college and entered the work for. The last thing she wants to do is worry about her future like most 20 somethings. Her goal is to live life randomly until inspiration strikes.
This is really well explained, I think you make a good point for a that sort of ideal medium you speak of. A female character that is optimistic and unique and uplifting, with depth and dreams and strength and aspirations.
Saying "Mary Sue has turned into an insult for characters someone doesn't like" while showing Rey. I see what you all are trying to do here, and you are not succeeding. Rey is absolutely a Mary Sue.
Delving into manga/anime, it's fun to think of how, if the story of Fruits Basket was told through the POV of the brooding male characters of Kyo or Yuki instead, the actual lead Tohru could potentially be seen as a MPDG. She's always optimistic, she's the main motivation for either boy to perk up and find meaning in life again, she's definitely a love interest, and she's a bit quirky, which is the main reason so many are drawn to her. From the outside it's hard to even draw a character arc/see much growth. However, since the story IS told from Tohru's perspective - the MPDG is the MC - we get to see her internal monologue. We see her struggle with life, and see her persistent optimism is actually more of a case of "If I don't laugh I will cry". She purposely grows to be a stronger woman to stand up for herself and loved ones, which includes Kyo and Yuki. We get to see her private breakdowns that she won't show anyone else, because she falsely believes she has to be (in not so many words) the MPDG for their sake. All-in-all, it's kind of fun to see how simply shifting the story perspective shifts a character into or out of a trope.
She is the text book example of a Mary Sue. She everyone likes her, she's great at everything, never fails or has to learn any tough lessons for her choices. I say this as someone who wanted to like her, as I bought her figure for my goddaughter instead of one of leia as I wanted her to have a heroine of her own generation for Christmas when they had figures both both. Unfortunately Rey turned out to be a dud and neither of my nieces liked her despite liking star wars. My eldest niece actually wanted her go to dark side since that would been fun to see an evil disney princes she said. Nope, boring invincible Rey pleases no one but feminists who probably never liked Star Wars in the first place.
Studios have made the decision to not make movies that men will enjoy. Thus explaining the fact that big moves are making half as much money as they used to and the disaperarance of the manic pixie dream girl.
It’s absurd to insinuate Rey is anything other than a Mary Sue. She instantly becomes the best at everything without zero training whatsoever, besting everyone else with literal decades of training and has nothing but mld superficial flaws that aren’t even personal flaws to overcome. How is she not a Mary Sue?
so she definitely is, but I really think it could have been hand waved away with a throw away line from either Luke or Leia that she was clearly a prodigy. and the thing about Star Wars is that it has a built in "as the plot demands" deus ex machina in The Force. I mean, Luke has an arc, but he's also a bit of a Mary Sue. dude's got way less training than Obi-Wan did at the age he beat Maul... Obi struggled in that fight, nearly lost it even. But somehow Luke, with like a month's experience of wielding the Force OVERPOWERS Vader? Darth Vader? the fucking Chosen One? okay. talk about plot armor.
@@Oboro86 Luke had more training and got his ass beat by Vader in the first duel even though Vader was a shallow husk of his former self. A shallow husk that never tried to actually kill Luke to begin with. This is all while being the actual child of the chosen one. By comparison Rey, having never even known what a lightsaber was, instantly becomes a duelist capable of beating Kylo who had been training for most of his entire life, uses the force pretty much instantly since hearing of it, also a master mechanic, which OK maybe she knows tinkering but also knows the ins and outs of an old ship she's never seen, but also a master pilot despite being exceptionally poor and likely never having been on a ship much less piloting one, and even later having the ability to just force heal fatal wounds out of nowhere as well as force holding then lightning and destroying full on cruiser with even less training from Luke. Also, she's managed to just fly while meditating for shits and giggles. Saying she was clearly a prodigy doesn't fix bad storytelling. She was bullshit, Luke was not.
@@Parker--nah you are absolute baffoon if you think rey should have lost kylo ren who had a giant hole in his stomach lmao. She lost to snoke and none of you clowns seen to ever acknolegde that. Or the fact that luke beat vader on spaceship combat
I mean, to be fair, Rey does actually match the Mary Sue archetype pretty well. The problem is that Disney used the backlash as a means to turn her into the center of a culture war for their own financial gain. When you turn rational people who can tell what a poorly written character is into "The Enemy", then the only ones who win are those who are fabulously wealthy. Especially when we can no longer actually tell who the true "enemy" actually is, because we've been conditioned to expect it to apply to "everyone except the person responsible for lighting the match."
She absolutely fits it. Majority of the protagonists instantly like her, Leia even goes out of her way to hug her in TFA without even meeting her beforehand. She ends up with everyone's stuff and even gets approval from beyond the grave to take the Skywalker last name. Her initial abilities from TFA in regards to the force are literally downloaded from Kylo Ren. Then to make sense of it they bring up/create force dyads. She displayed more or equivalent power in her first week to a year than the "Chosen one" did in the majority of his career.
@jefftonsman > instantly learned abilities > instantly liked by most if not all protagonists > antagonist falls in love with her > ends up with all the protagonists things Those are all things that help her be a Mary Sue.
@@HeavyMetalJesus02 none of these are marys traits lol. Are you upset po learnt chi without training at all? Or the dozens of protagonists who are liked by everyone? Why wouldn't they be?
Everyone always says of this type of character that she has no goal except to cheer other people up, but isn't cheering other people up a great goal in life?
I feel like Jennifer Lawrences' character in No Hard Feelings does a good job of undermining and redefining the MPDG. We follow her POV, and we see her failing and making mistakes throughout the film, however she remains optimistic, outgoing and bubbly, especially in the the eyes of the dorky, male lead she's paired with. Interestingly he also subverts his own stereotypes too.
@@erdood3235the creator was involved with the anime and they hold in a interview they didnt want to retell the same story for the third time. Fleshing out the story characters and universe is a good choice anyway.
@Bow-to-the-absurd Scott Pilgrim Takes Off isn't "fixing" the original so much as building off of it in a new direction. It's all the same characters, but when their circumstanceschange, they start growing in new ways. I highly recommend it.
I was a real life manic pixie dream girl for my partners - and I hated it. I am quirky, unconventional, weird, creative, ... but it's my ADHD and my autism. Which I didn't know. I wasn't quirky to be cute or different, I just didn't get how to act 'normal'. And I see a lot of autism and ADHD traits in these maniac pixie dream girls. (My favorite is Sophia from Vanilla Sky.)
Captain Wentworth in Jane Austen's Persuasion (1817) is the perfect example of MPDB so the trope has been around for a long time. And if you want a MPDG with depth and motivation then you already have it in the character of Gwen Stacy in the two superb Spiderverse animated films.
They grew up, had kids, and got fat. The infantilization of women was a thing that didn’t age well. They’re still trying to do this on TicTac, with the pixie girls all nonbinary now.
I would make a case that Robin from Stranger Things is a subversion of the manic pixie dream girl. She starts off as this quirky hyperactive character that serves to keep the jock in check but as it goes on, she becomes more fleshed out, she has her own issues and goals and in a sense, Steve the dumb jock kinda serves as the manic pixie dream boy as it goes on only without the romantic subplot because another subversion that you would never have seen back when the manic pixie dream girl was the biggest trope in cinema; she's gay. I think they've done really well with Steve and Robin's relationship because rather than one being pure motivation, the two bounce off each other so naturally. If they were to revamp the trope of manic pixie dream girl, they should definitely look at this relationship as the new blueprint
And that's the difference between a TV show and a movie. Movies have very limited run time and don't have the ability to flesh out every character. That's just the nature of the medium.
I like how in Scott Pilgrim Takes Off they focus more on Ramona and her prior relationships with the Seven Evil Exes without really changing her personality.
Romana Flowers and Clementine= Unrelenting optimism? There is actually a lot more examples in this video that showcase a MPDG who is dour and pessimistic that counters this point because they missed core component of the Trope which is character being "socially unconventional". You know the "manic" and "pixie" part of the description. I won't lie, the video is right that often they are props and poorly written as such though I would say that is because MPDGs are doing triple duty as being: "the call to adventure", "the adventure"(in romcoms at least), as well as one of the characters. When a character is doing that much work to hold up a story, it becomes tough to build in story arcs or character development without kicking the base structure out from underneath it. I'd say video also missed the underlining connection between stoic tough girls or STGs and MPDGs. I don't have any study or book to draw this conclusion besides noting the times they sprung from and the filling the same role. I hypothesis is that: Manic Pixie Dream Girls are the other side of the coin of Fem Fatales. Both Romcoms and Noir movies arrived in the early 20th century to more generalized public with the advent of Movie Theaters existing(yes, duh) and also the dourness of post WWI. Inside Noirs, Fem Fatales where "the call to adventure" for the detectives through an unconventional female character who eschew the reserved motherly figure society thoroughly upheld then. MPDGs did the same but with less possibility of being murdered, as appropriate for most Romcoms. What I am saying connects this all together is that Stoic Tough Girls are modern equivalent of Fem Fatales stripped of their femininity (and sometimes their sexuality) as a response to the criticisms listed in this video. The fault line in this statement is that STGs are given many more leading roles unlike FF (outside a Luc Besson film), but they do hold the characteristics of deadliness and eschewing convention. Take calm unflapped demeaner of FF Mrs. Rabbit in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" (yes, I'm showing my lack of Noir watching), Romana in "Scott Pilgrim vs. World", and the Full Metal B*tch in "Edge of Tomorrow". All of them are unpredictable, all are stoic, and all are used in the framework of the adventure of the story. All of these tropes aren't somehow opposite ends of the spectrum, but sides of the same coin... or dice because there is more than two. Better metaphors are welcome in the comments as well as disagreements. PS April Ludgate in Parks and Rec is obviously a MPDG in that show, though I do enjoy the argument made that Andy is the guy equivalent.
Im only 43 seconds into this video but its showing a lot of Eternal Sunshine and literally the whole point of Clems character is that shes NOT a manic pixie dream girl so this is a very bad start lol
@@johnjordan211 Well, unlike you, I actually have a life outside of replying to comments. And instead of arguing me on my point, why don't you respect that it's my opinion and realise that people will disagree with you. And I re-iterate, where did I say I hate these types of women? Also your issue isn't with me, it's with the video itself because he says the same thing.
This makes me think of Space case from doom patrol the show ended before they could flesh her out much tbh but you could see what they were going for with bringing a litteral 2d comic book character to life and having her come to terms with the fact she was written as part of someone else's story and having to figure out who she actually is an actual person
I'm not a fan of using scenes of Rita Vrataski from Edge of Tomorrow as examples of going too far in the other direction. Vrataski was an outstanding character with more depth than this video would imply. Also it fails to mention the times even Zoeey Deschanel was used to try and subvert the Manic Pixie Dream Girl stereotype in films like 500 Days of Summer. Summer starts out seeming like a prop but ends up being her own character to show just how broken protagonist Tom is. Tom lives in an alternate reality where she fulfills the MPDG role for him but that isn't reality.
At 7:00, i think one thing that is missing in the analysis is that movies only have 2 hours to give some character development, and tell a story. Its a lot to pack into a small timeframe. Tv shows have more runtime due to episodes and seasons, so Stranger Things as an example can change a character, with the passage of time and events, which is more realistic to real life. In real life, people often take time and experiences to exhibit change in their character.
The Scott Pilgrim anime on Netflix is part of this redemption, making Ramona essentially the main character and having her ideas and actions drive the show. And it is AWESOME!
When you brought up the MCU at the end I was reminded of Iman Velani's Ms. Marvel. She seems to me like everything we associate with the classic MLDG, but with added emotional stakes and character depth.
I know what happened. They were deemed sexist/misogynistic and plenty of articles/videos were written about how they're just there to heal a man, so movies got rid of them. They have been replaced by "strong woman" characters. The pixie dream guy is okay because no one cares if a male character is depicted that way. Personally I never liked the MPDG. I've met women who could be described as such and I can't stand them. Though I will say, story wise, they are far more interesting than the strong woman characters they've been usurped by.
Even in the movies, by the definition you have put in the movie, Ramona Flowers is not a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. She is not full of life an sunshine that brings the main character out of his gloomy shell. She is all about gloom actually. She has run away from her past, which is pretty detailed and it is actually Scott Pilgrim that brings joy to her by his quirckyness.
I love the concept of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Highlighting how they're used to bolster a male main character's arc was a very important thing for me to hear, and is a very valid criticism of the archetype. Making them optimistic and carefree for themselves, and them _choosing_ to hang out with a mopey male lead (or not; why not make an MPDG the main character?) gives them agency and a mind of their own. Maybe a character arc for an MPDG is learning boundaries, both others' and their own. Maybe she (or he, in the case of an MPD guy) learns from the mopey male lead about how it's okay that life isn't all sunshine and roses, just like the mopey male lead learns from them that gloom and sadge doesn't have to define their life. I'm glad this isn't a "this trope is problematic and should be eradicated" video, but a "this trope has problems, let's fix it" video.
Kind of feel a bit called out coz I feel like if I were to be a living breathing trope I’d probably be a manic pixie dream girl with identity issues and the reality is you just get lost and stuck as you watch the world move by
People that think this is a valid criticism lack the imagination to understand that some stories are written completely in the perspective of one character getting to know the other. Pretty much all relationships start on a superficial level like the MPDG/B, and, like in at least some of the stories mentioned, the main character gets to know the other character and appreciate them and or life on a deeper level.
I agree. Moreover most films that utilise the MPDG aren't actually traditional Romcoms but are movies with different themes or commentary under the guise of Romcom. In a traditional romcom maybe it would be a valid criticism that the female lead isn't fleshed out but in most movies MPDGs are used as a troupe to further the plot. While they might be the female lead they aren't the focus of the movie and might as be the side character. Maybe in show their characters might be more flesh out and well rounded but in a 2 hour movie it's hard to do so. Heck, the whole message of the movie 500 days of summer wouldn't work if summer wasn't a MPDG.
I don't like how Clementine was displayed here - Joel thought of her that way, but as the film goes on, both Joel and the audience realize she's not that. . . She's got issues.
Bring back the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, that was one of the best archetypes and what made romcoms enjoyable for men. Manic Pixie Dream Girls don't need to be fleshed out, if one is able to do it in an non-distracting way great, but it's not necessary. Not every character in a story needs huge amounts of depth, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was there to balance the turmoil of the male protagonists which is not a bad thing. Every movie that had Manic Pixie Dream Girls were huge successes, if not in the box office then at the very least culturally speaking. We want them back, and are sick and tired of girl bosses, the past ten years are evidence enough of that.
A character like Kamala Khan is the answer here. She has a LOT of the Manic Pixie qualities while still being a fully realized and actualized character. She’s a breath of fresh air and we need more like her.
I felt bad for Deschanel. She only played those characters on a few occasions and the majority of her roles had a lot of substance. It reminds me of how Scorsese is associated with mafia films but he’s only made 3 to 4 mafia themed films over a 50 year career.
It's interesting that in the final minutes of the video, as the narrator talks about examples of the extreme manic-pixie or stoic tough girl, the video clips are all from film. And then the narrator transitions into exploring characters that have more depth and complexity and starts showing clips from television shows. To what degree are shallow characters in film a product of that format?
I feel like Luna Lovegood is an example of one not being used in a romantic context.
On top of that, she actually had a real story arc.
Even so I had a crush on her when I read the books, lol
@@iknownothing-m8c 100% Luna forms strong bonds with Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny, then proves her bravery in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries and later endures the strained relationship with her father, Xenophilius Lovegood, highlighting the sacrifices made in opposing dark forces. Luna's participation in the Battle of Hogwarts underlines her dedication to the fight against Voldemort, and her post-war life as a wizarding naturalist and marriage to Rolf Scamander reflect her continued passion and ability to find happiness after enduring personal challenges.
Really good arc in the books, sadly the films didnt give her the justice she deserved
@@iknownothing-m8ci don’t remember luna getting much of an arc. sure she had a strong character which got stronger as the books progressed, but there wasn’t much of an arc to it (as far as I remember it’s been a while since I read the books)
I used her as my username. I liked that character.
I think Everything Everywhere All at Once set a pretty good example of what the modern use of the trope can look like. Waymond has a lot of those personality traits and his optimistic, kind and at times a little goofy ways are framed as naive and silly in the beginning of the movie. Later on it is revealed, that those were intentional strategies to deal with a mostly cold and cruel world. While I do think they could have gone even more in depth with his character, it was really nice to see those character traits seen as valid and important.
Your mind 👌
Agreed but that said, not every character needs to be complex and deep. Throughout the history of cinema, it's not uncommon for a supporting character to be a mere supporting character in a handful of scenes for a reason - they are who they are as mere character foil, comic relief, or to push the plot forward with certain information.
If we go too far down this path of looking down on one-dimensional characters then people are going to end up trying too hard to complicate side characters that never needed to be. Sometimes less is more for a reason.
Literally was scrolling to post something similar and your post was the first thing I saw👌
Interestingly, his role was originally meant to be a female role with Jackie Chan meant to be the main lead replacing Michelle
I agree that optimism is often devalued or sort of folklorized into a general sense of quirkiness instead of really validated by the narrative as something more profoundly good, and I suppose that is MPDG's adjacent, but I wouldn't classify Waymond as a male example of the trope... I think Waymond lacks the insufferable mystique or aura of mystery that the Manic Pixie Dream Girls are written (often by male writers) to embody to make them some sort of pseudo-riddle for the main male character to solve throughout his arc... Waymond is just framed as sincerely good, and kind, and giving, and as disregarded by Michelle Yeoh's character because he doesn't have the proactive, agressiveness that is associated in most cultures with traditional masculinity... I don't remember Cara Delevingne in Paper Towns, or Kirsten Dunst in Elizabethtown as being framed as weak in the eyes of the story's male protagonist... The MPDG are never seen as weak by the male character, because they have this aura of mystery around them... In my humble opinion
A movie I absolutely love that deals with this topic a lot is "Ruby Sparks." It's about a writer whose dream girl in his own story comes to life and is his girlfriend. For much of the movie, she basically is exactly what he wants, then he starts to get upset when she becomes interested in things/people that are not him, so he pulls her back. She becomes a fleshed out, real person, and he refuses to accept it and uses his writing to basically trap her until he realizes that what he's doing is messed up and wrong, and that he needs to let her be her own person. It's a great movie that I feel like not many people have seen.
Thanks for telling me as I'll see if I can see it. Sounds like a well told take on the topic.
I love that movie. Sadly, not many people have watched it
i was literally thinking of that movie the whole time i was watching this. such a good exploration of the "manic pixie dream girl" trope.
Thanks for spoiling that movie for me...
@ozymandiasultor9480 If you see "It's about..." then continue reading, that's on you.
Ted Lasso is arguably a really great subversion of the trope. And they made the manic pixie the main character and anchored his arc to his son and his personal struggles instead of a blank slate glum love interest. And everyone he impacted had their own distinct character arcs, and human wants, fears, etc. Such a lovely and optimistic, yet grounded show as a result.
But the 'manic pixie' isnt the main character of a show or film. The main problem with the 'manic pixie' is they are a prop to motivate the protagonist. So you could say that Juno Temple's Keeley character is a manic pixie that's been subverted (a model who isnt vacuous), but Ted by definition is a fully rounded main character. if he wasn't the show would just be bad
The "adorkable" girl still exists in Disney movies where it is unfortunately so overused that it has become obnoxious. They use both ends mentioned in the video, but the absolute best characters will have elements of both like you said: Mulan in the animated original is a great example. Brave and strong and dedicated, but still caring, kind, thoughtful and nuanced enough to be believable. I love that the ending also implies a romance but never solidifies it, so both "camps" can have their way.
...I loved Raya...
Cringy and cliche is what your description of Mulan is
hear hear!
@@harpieahouse6246 why do you people write garbage comments like these? Why cant you soeak about female characters like you actually like them instead of being condescending
like what? I literally just wrote 'hear hear' @@jefftonsman "you people" wtf. 'soeak'?
I appreciate that more Manic Pixies are getting properly fleshed out, and that there's more to them than initially meets the eye, like Summer Finn or Penny Lane. John Green in particular is fond of deconstructing this trope, by pointing out that the male lead didn't really know his quirky love interest.
They shouldnt exist at all in movies. They are some of the most unrealistic characters. Even moreso than elves and shit
Yes exactly cause realism is the main reason why we watch movies
they aren't unrealistic at all as girls like that do exist its just in alot of movies with the manic pixie dream girl trope the girl is never really fleshed out enough to feel real but they do exist @@Dan55888
@@miqueasrodriguez3249 y r u so pissed bro
Sorry if I came off like that bro it’s just that nobody should look to films for realism. It also really depends on what kind of movie is in discussion .
Every straight teenage boy at one point has a crush on Ramona flowers. I was not the exception.
Am 15 didn't even know who she wz Before this Vid 😒😒
@@jacobblack2381 probably shoulda specified teenage in 2010 whoops
@@jacobblack2381 probably shoulda specified teenage in 2010 whoops
@@domokuo6318 probably shoulda specified teenage in 2010 whoops
nah bro i was a school-girl pilled Knivescel
One thing about the Manic Pixie Dream Girl that gets disregarded is the fact that not every character has to have character development taking place during the timespan of the movie.
Manic Pixie Dream Girls usually have a good amount of their self-actualization done before the events of the movie. Oftentimes, grandparents and mentors also have that sort of prior self-actualization, even if these characters- especially mentors- aren't necessarily bubbly and optimistic.
It makes more sense if you understand that the critics of MPDG are often sad people who can't abide a story that doesn't hew to their own value system in which all of the women characters are driven and don't seek male attention. All women must be strong, or no woman can be strong.
@@payleryder45 But some women are strong, some women are weak, and many have their own individual sets of strengths and weaknesses.
@@payleryder45Who says MPDGs aren't strong? They don't need anyone's validation.
Another character trope is “the magic negro.” A wise older black person who dispenses sage advice and life lessons to the protagonist.
@@MrJeffcoley1 Also "the wise old cowboy" who just happens to be sitting at the bar next to the protagonist when they're at their lowest point, offers a bit of wisdom and perspective, and then is gone when the protagonist turns back around.
It’s also important to note that Ramona has a full character arc in the comic. It’s not as fleshed out as Scott’s, but she still has one. It’s likely her arc was cut from the film both due to time and the changes from comic to film, since the comic takes place over several months, while the movie’s timeframe is significantly shorter than that.
And of course there is anime Ramona who gets a full and complete arc (which is what she deserves) due to being the protagonist there.
While clearly inspired by the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope, Ramona only actually qualifies as one in the movie.
The Movie was made while the comic was still coming out
The script was written when only 3 books were finished, and even the author admitted that Ramona isn't portrayed well in those early books.
I have always read it as Scott viewing her as a manic pixie dream girl because he is very immature early on in the story.
@@askmeagain43 isn't that almost always the case with MPDG? They are being shown through the lenses of the male(main) character.
How was Ramona manic in any shape or form btw?
Okay but Emily Blunt’s character in the Day After Tomorrow had the appearance of being this cold hearted killer but she had lots of depth as the movie progressed.
Emily Blunt could read a phone book from 1995 and be amazing at it.
Frankly the examples given and implied by the video should be taken with a grain of salt.
@@magnusprime962 True. Margo from Paper Towns was 100% a manic pixie dream girl and not just "a victim of the abuse of the term" as the video tried to imply, but they were right about Amélie. She was just a quirky female character in a quirky movie.
There's a really good flavorwire article called "‘Eternal Sunshine’ Destroyed the Manic Pixie Dream Girl Stereotype Before It Even Existed," referring of course to "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind." Excellent article.
That's one of those movies I love but can't even watch now. Just cause of my own damn life.
I saw another video essay on Manic Pixie Dream Girls which framed them as Neurodivergent girls among other things. As someone with ADHD I think if you want to have a MPDG and give her depth and motivation just look to typical challenges ADHD people face because I relate a lot to this archetype and it might be an interesting angle to explore.
Link to essay or keywords for search?
@@Apocalymoni don't think it was really a video essay but more of what was being said on Tok Tik because I remember hearing that too but when I was absolutely addicted to that app. But yea basically a lot of them are just people with very distinct autism or /ADHD trates like that just like one trate ×100 depending on the person so it doesn't quite seen real if that makes sense. But I would be interesting if one of the characters came out to have one of them but I just don't think that'd be a thing lol
In my opinion, giving a character random challenges from a very specific disorder isn’t that great of a tactic.
I don’t think anyone should work a character into a trope, but instead let that character be something unique.
Besides the MPDG already has many “quirks”. There’s a lot to choose from. Give the girl/guy a personality fault, stem insecurities from that fault, and then stem a life goal from those insecurities. From that life goal, think about some smaller goals they’ll need to accomplish first.
And that would be character depth
Oh yeah, I feel the same way as a girl with ADHD too… 😅
@@KJ7Tillymann Yeah but you're talking to a generation who spend more time on the internet than with real people and believe that any quirk is a sign of being "neurodivergent" because they've rarely interacted with humans and fail to realize that literally everyone has personality traits or habits that make them distinct.
it’s so funny how many people can’t seem to understand the simple concept of POV.
if the story is told from a certain POV then obviously you’re going to see the other characters through that lens and obviously they’re not going to be as fleshed out as the main character is.
And it's only a problem when the POV is male. If the protagonist is a woman and the male love interest is shallow and underdeveloped, no one says a thing.
@@MarcusMoore88they literally mentioned it in this video......
Except in a romcom there's more than 1 main character. The girl shouldn't be a shell of a trope. They should be fleshed out. It's called having a good character and not a vehicle for the plot.
@@kona7043except films that use MPDG while categorised under Romcom by the Studio's distribution aren't actually romcom but explore other themes in the guise of Romcom.
I haven't seen all the movies that the video talked about but movies like 500 days of Summer or Scott Pilgrim do exactly that.
The story isn't about two characters falling in love where both characters are lead but about the main character (Scott Pilgrim) or a commentary on love and expectations through the protagonist (500 days)
In this case the fleshing out of the M0DG character isn't necessarily as they are only a side character and a troupe to further the plot and story.
@@suchangburagohain 500 Days of Summer... woman is a psychopath, the complete opposite of the made up MPDG term lmao
Little random, but as an autistic girl I always admired the Manic Pixie Dream Girls because they were liked for their weirdness and ability to unmask but then it became weird to be that "unrealistic" when it comes to stimming, not getting embarrassed and seeing different perspectives that a lot of people. Then I grew up(undiagnosed), into a women who when she masks is stoic, standoffish and quiet unless I open up. It's just interesting what keeps getting dubbed as boring tropes when its like... oops lol that's me. Good news is that my husband is also a reformed Manic Pixie Dream Boy so our conversations literally never stop or get boring :) Great video!
One example of a quirky, optimistic young woman, who IS a fully-fleshed out protagonist is Anne from Netflix's show "Anne with an E". I haven't read any of the books the series is based on (I mostly read fantasy and sci-fi book series as a kid), but I think the show does a great job of portraying a somewhat realistically awkward and whimsical neurodivergent girl who has a very fully fleshed out backstory. I don't think she would be considered a MPDG (not the least because she's a bit young and, again, she's the protagonist), but she is, perhaps, the sort of MPDG-adjacent character that I think might be an improved version. Perhaps we could do with some more stories that feature "quirky" women as strong protagonists with deeper context and more nuance to their personalities, thoughts, and feelings. (For the record, as a neurodivergent woman, I felt SO seen watching "Anne with an E" and was a teary mess during many relatable scenes that felt like they could've been pulled from my own childhood. This is how I _almost_ felt as a young adult in the late aughts and '10s watching movies with MPDG characters. Almost.)
Anne even dyes her hair green! I would add characters like Jo in Little Women, Kierra Knightly's character in Colette, Florence Foster Jenkins. The manic Pixie Dream Girl has been time travelled to the past where women make up a lot more of the audience so she can have depth and an actual story!
Man I’d kill for more of these characters now. There’s nothing wrong with 1 or 2 “Me girl me tough” characters but variety is always welcome.
Yeah but Ray “Skywalker” really is a Mary Sue. Other characters, like Wonder Woman and Black Widow, are NOT Mary Sues. Wonder Woman represents the aspirational hero archetype, as do Superman and Captain America. She gives us hope and sets a moral standard for us to live up to. Black Widow is a femme fatale, but one with a complex inner life and real human emotions.
Agreed. Captain Marvel is also a Mary Sue.
She isnt a mary sue you are just clowns malding
@@suchangburagohainneither are mary sues
I really think the whole Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope isn't as shallow as some people make it out to be. Sure, they might not have the most intricate individual Story Lines and often serve as more of a plot device for the main character, but they've got way more personality and passion than most other character types. Not everyone in real life has this deep background or clear-cut goals. And it's not like everyone needs to be a hundred layers deep. I get that relying solely on this trope (like some other ones these days) would be a letdown for Hollywood and society, but there's always this rebellious vibe, like, "I define myself," which I think has a feminist edge.
Take someone like Ramona Flowers - she's got more personality in my eyes than all the female Marvel characters combined.
I'm cool with characters sometimes just being about their personality and a straightforward life story. In many ways, it's actually helped them become more well-rounded as they get the space to grow.
Your perspective is super interesting, and you bring up some solid points. But the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope has different sides, and there are instances where these characters have way more depth and personality than what meets the eye.
Diversity in characters is a must, and it'd be a downer if one trope dominated the scene. The variety of female characters with different personalities, goals, and backgrounds adds to the richness and diversity in media.
After reading a lot of discussions about character archetypes, especially MPDGs and Mary Sues, I've personally concluded that trying to criticize characters using these types of labels is unproductive. People often disagree about what the qualifications are, rarely apply the same logic to male characters, and there's too much emphasis on trying to match the label to the character rather than trying to imagine the character on a deeper level and discuss that. I don't think the labels are inherently bad or useless, but the overuse of them as broad criticism is.
What you said. And alot of the times things are made political when they shouldn't be. This applies to many things these days. Not pointing fingers at anyone in specific. Every side can make things political at times.
This. Like can people start elaborating what they mean exactly when they call characters these labels
Was I the only one who saw these characters and went "Woah, MADE of red flags. Dream girl? Yeah, nightmare-central."
Can we call the male equivalent the "Wacky Hunky Dreamboat?"
Also, I feel like Iman Villani's "Ms. Marvel" is the perfect blending of MPDG and SFL (strong, female lead) that we need. She geeks out when meeting her heroes, has a hard time coming to grips with her coming of age, but still gets in there and kicks ass.
We already kind of have a term for the male equivalent, it's called the Himbo.
YES IMAN VELLANI LET'S GO!!!
(I am Pakistani and Muslim and have brown skin to boot, how can I not appreciate her? I about died when I saw that the first page of the Ms. Marvel comic was literally her AVENGERS FANFICTION)
@@Ashtarte3D Nope, the "himbo" is the male equivalent for the "bimbo".
@@Ashtarte3D What OP is describing is more of the type that is hunky, but also overly cool. A himbo isn’t expressly cool, they’re adorkable.
@@EthanKironus8067 I am niether but admired Vellani's energy and spirit and hope she will be a shining star in the MCU's future.
7:52 Women haven't been used as "just props" in US cinema for eons now, if ever was this was the case. As far back as The 1930s, Hollywood was filled with strong and resourceful leading ladies
Ke Quan’s character in everything everywhere all at once is a manic pixie dream guy who has depth. First he seems like an airhead goofball but then we get to see how he ticks
Very well done!!! I always liked those characters, but couldn’t define it. Incredible video!
This channel fucking rocks. This is exactly the content I need in my daily life
Not every character needs to have a deep, fleshed-out personality. Characters are largely defined by their role in the story. Art is about focus. Archetypes are an efficient shorthand which help the viewer focus on what the artist considers important.
So I actually wrote my dissertation on this topic. One key factor for a proper MPDG is that she is only ever seen through the eyes of the male protagonist. The story is his and all we see of her is what he sees of her. Technically if we see her perspective and follow any of her story, even if it's dumb, she isn't fully a MPDG. That's obviously problematic (when it becomes the strandard for women characters) but there's a lot of I love about the MPDG that I hope comes back. She was quirky, and often very confortable with her sexuality. She is normally confident even if she chooses to be quiet. She is positive and fun and creative. I think if the film industry could dare to give a her another chance but with a proper story, we could see some really great films. And maybe she could even go on to represent the girls who "rock a lot of pokadots" in a more meaningful way.
Good points.
Also, if the MPDG isn't the main character, to complain of a lack of character arc or "inner life" is a cheap shot: **few** supporting characters get this; they're supporting. :)
FWIW, I love the Claire character. She actually has depth and an inner life: perhaps critics are not astute enough to see this. :)
I wonder what you think of Jennifer Lawrence's "Tiffany" in Silver Linings Playbook. Is she somewhere in between?
Yeah but not many movie has multiple pov.
Ussualy we see only from protagonist or at best antagonist.
Take a look at sex in the city movie, Mr. Big isn't realy fleshed out.
Or take a look mean girl movie... who is the male character again?
Weird, I never heard anyone demand more fleshed out tritagonist male character.
My point is you can't fleshed out all characters in 2 hours runtime, and that's fine.
I love the Line "Rock alot of Pokadots"
@@ryanbarrows2592 I haven't watched that film in years but from what I remember she wouldn't be a MPDG because of how depressed and messed up she is, plus you follow her journey to recovery too. Really MPDG show up, say something inspirational, and then disappear
They're all still fundamentally here. They're the founding backbone of the entire cosplaying community.
No they are not. Cosplayers, especially cosplayer women, hate nerd guys, at least if they know they are pretty enough to exploit losers with skimpy costumes
They are mostly super models who dress that way to gain economic benefit. Nothing else
@@Dan55888Ah, you have met THAT sort of cosplayer. There is more to cosplaying than just THEM...
@@charlespuruncajas9663 yep, it's an easy life for any woman who has a thinner figure... instant built in simp economy they can exploit while wanting nothing to do with the actual fans or content of their cosplay, as long as it is an unrealistic fanservice costume THOSE are the characters they just so happen to love...
@@Dan55888no I’ve met dedicated female cosplayers who spend thousands of hours and dollars on their cosplays. They do it because the craft is fun such as learning to link chainmail, figuring out foam smithing, or even just trying to sew in general. It’s a very involved art form. I understand there are some people are like who you describe but that’s just a vocal minority. You can’t discount the majority who actually have fun cosplaying and want to become their favorite character. It’s not hard to find legit female cosplayers on RUclips who document their craft and thought processes
If anything it could be said that Cameron Crowe truly honed and defined the architype starting with Phoebe Cates in "Fast Times...", then again with Renee Zellweger in "Jerry Maguire" and finally with Penny Lane in "Almost Famous" that all led to the Kirsten Dunst character in "Elizabethtown".
You make a good point. That role or dynamic was present in all of his movies up to then, and the critic putting a handle on it gave it its final shape.
I was surprised Jinx/Powder from Arcane was never mentioned.
Yes! We need Manic Pixie Dream Girls now more than ever! Bring 'em on! They are a gift that nothing else can replace.
Just like in real life, manic pixie dream girls get bored with stability, safety and peace. That's where they all went. You got comfortable with each other, and then she left because, butterflies.
I really thought that Netflix's "Blue Eyed Samurai" did a phenomenal job of creating a badass character, whilst simultaneously maintaining the emotional content of sed character. The semi-androgynous aspect of the plot really helped to push the story forward, and contributed significantly to the character arc as a whole.
Thanks for another awesome video, Nerdstalgic!
Maybe it’s just me, but I wouldn’t describe Jess from New Girl as an exact manic pixie dream girl, though she does carry a lot of similar traits. She definitely starts the story there as well, but I’d argue she grows into a fully fleshed out character, as we he see deal with plenty of emotional states
Speaking of "the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction" we saw something very similar thing happen in the 90s. Back then, they tried to course-correct decades of poorly-written female characters and it seems the answer they came to was "the problem is that they're being written as female characters" and figured giving them traits mostly associated with male characters would fix it. Mostly in the form of the character being quick to anger and using violence as their first response. Which, even if they were male characters, is psychopathic behaviour and probably not what was intended.
Smfh
I think there's a fine line between physically though and not emotionally fragile vs. psychopathic and violent, whether male or female.
Who were some of these 90s female characters you're thinking of?
You can tell a character is like this if the actor playing her could be a man and there would be no difference. I think a lot of the time these parts are written as men and then they just decide to switch the character to female without changing anything. I think this is a 2010s to today phenomenon though. I can't think of any 90s female characters that act like men.
Please provide examples of what you're talking about here.
This is just the good old "women are always victims" theme. The MPDG-thing (or adorkable) overcome the stereotype that women always have to be serious, adult, motherly and beautiful, which is a stereotype which also allegedly victimizes women. Today the "strong female character" is meant to do that, but is also a one dimensional stereotype. In reality there are many stereotypes for men and women in stories and they are modern for a while. Whereas almost nobody discusses the male stereotypes today the female stereotypes are always a very big thing showing discrimination.
Shut up not that serious goofy 😂 this doesn't affect your life in any real tangible way
i miss this era of movies. ramona flowers had me in a chokehold.
It seems to be some kind of an attack on femininity. The manic pixie girl is your typical normal indie chick; there is nothing particularly unrealistic about it, including traits like optimism and quips. I don't understand what is "shallow" about this as they are generally shown to have hobbies and interests, and in fact are more individuated than the typical character. I guess anything attractive must be destroyed and things must be rendered arid.
The new Scott Pilgrim Takes Off does a great job making Ramon the main focus and actually fleshing out her character and backstory
I feel like Harley Quinn was always the most extreme version of this.
Yes! I was wondering if she was going to be included. However, she is more realistic because she is actually destructive and doesn’t care about the damage that she does. This is a far more accurate representation of a lot of the “quirky” girls I’ve known in real life. But I suppose there is autistic/ADHD quirky and borderline/bipolar/narcissist quirky. Films stayed with a very fantasy version of mental instability.
@@kittymarch8455what is wrong with you lik
I never thought of them as one dimensional. I've liked almost every example I've seen
This is simply an intellectual look at the archetype. It's okay to enjoy the character.
People tend to look too deeply into it. Oh, this is sexist. Oh, this is one dimensional. Like...people...it's a fucking character. They aren't real people....
I think they started dying out when people tried to shape their personalities to be quirky like them irl, and we got the term "pick me boy/girl." When you force the quirkiness or make it your whole personality it's no longer endearing like in the movies and just becomes annoying
No they died out because they all drowned when they all ran out into a thunder storm looking up at the sky smiling optimistically 😂
It's only annoying to other women because they feel its cheating
They were replaced with the somehow stronger and smarter than the male "protagonist" without even trying girl boss who is aggressively antagonistic and hijacks a film or television show and becomes the main character, for the fiftieth time in a row, then the studio and actors complain when they lose the audience.
The worst thing that can happen is for someone to be appealing to the opposite sex. Good thing they shut down the MPDG industrial complex before people started having fulfilling real life relationships with less conflict.
Most female characters are written as men. The girl boss trope has taken over.
I guess the only way to empower women is to write for them as if they're male.
I guess male creators writing the female character like any other male character is the only way to keep oneself from being aroused with one own character in order to avoid that personal ideal girl self fulfillment trap.
Which is the most anti-feminist thing ever the more you think about it. Very funny.
@@viviangarcia5696Aren't most popular female characters that fit under the category of being like men written by women? Rey, Carol Danvers, She-Hulk, others, I'm pretty sure women wrote them to fulfill a girlboss fantasy or agenda.
@@kenslycarpel3140 Are you talking about female writers....? or just bad writers who happen to be female ?
🤣
@@mangaas I was talking about bad female writers. From what I interpreted from vivian's reply, they think that the action of making female characters like men is something employed by male writers so they don't get "aroused" (weird word to use, but ok) by said female characters, which led to me asking my question because to my knowledge, those types of female characters, or at the very least the more popular ones, are in fact written women for the sake of their own fantasy.
Yes! Sex education! Very correct to mention this gem in the context of more complex characters.
True. But then it is easier to flesh out characters in a show compared to a 2 hour movie.
I think most good shows have complex characters that more fleshed out. And the longer time also allows the characters to breathe and develop naturally over a period of time.
@@suchangburagohain very true. That's why I watch way more shows than movies nowadays.
I'll save you the work of figuring it out...The last couple of them came into my life and ruined it😅
Right there with ya! 😂
I think the key with a MPDG is that they can't JUST be that; they have to have reasons behind what they are, and dimensions beyond it. Take Holly Golightly, for example (yes, I know she's retroactive, but still). She's quirky and fun and adorable and likes to do crazy things; she fits the standard archetype very well (although she's got much better fashion sense than most), but we learn quite a fair amount about her besides that. We hear about her childhood and meet people from her past; we get to see little moments that develop her personality (for example, she likes to play guitar), but, perhaps most importantly, she's not just there to get the repressed male lead out of his shell. Her life is ALSO not working, like, at all, and it takes the male lead returning the favor to finally turn things around. The key to making the Manic Pixie Dream Girl work is to make her a GIRL, a person, a human - develop her PAST the eccentricities; don't make them the sole point of her character, and you can make her as fun and quirky as you like.
Yeah, and there's also the more obvious fact: The actresses who were once renown for portraying MPDG have all aged out of those roles. Kate Winslet and Nat Portman are both in their 40s now, with Winstead, Dunst, and ZD all being in their late 30s. This was a trope reflective of an era in cinematic history that was doomed to s short life span. For an apt comparison, we need look no further than 'roided out, frequently martial arts heavy action heroes of The 80s and very early 90s.... By the middle of the latter decade, tastes had changed, and these guys were all nearing or over 40. Even if the market was still craving gallons of more Segal, Van Damme, Arnie, Stallone*, etc etc, none of these fellas would've been physically capable of doing that shit to the extent that they were a decade earlier. Bruce Willis survived, on account of the fact that he really was a strong actor, and Chuck Norris re-invented himself for TV. The rest were consigned to straight to video flicks by time The 90s were drawing to a close, with only Stallone enjoying a career resurgence in the late 2000s
In a similar fashion, Kate Winslet seems to have successfully transitioned out of MPDG roles and into different types of roles. Portman's going to have a tough time, as she's never been a particularly versatile actress to begin with, and ZD has never shown a whole lot of range either. The jury is still out on Dunst and Winstead, though I'm quite fond of both, and wish them well
Sure, but at the end of the day, a type's a type; it's not tied down to a specific set of actors or actresses. There's nothing stopping a new generation of women from being cast as Manic Pixie Dream Girls, should they come back into vogue.
I mean, to put this into perspective, let's take another example. Back in the '30's, the director Howard Hawks became well-known for featuring a certain type of female characters in his films: tough-talking, one-of-the-guys types who still kept an air of sophisticated femininity to them; the 'Hawksian woman', as the type came to be known. A number of well-known actresses more or less based their careers around such roles, such as Katherine Hepburn and Lauren Bacall.
Neither Hawks nor any of his leading ladies are around anymore, may they all rest in peace, but even though Hawksian women are a little thin on the ground these days, you do still see them in films from time to time; John Carpenter, apparently, is known for his love of them. If THAT character type continues to survive, almost a hundred years after its initial burst in popularity, surely the MPDG has a chance in the long run - it's only been a relative handful of years since they stopped showing up, after all. @@MechaJutaro
Everyone thinks it's sexist now so we made men manic pixie dream boys and himbos. The problem is that women do embody the archetype and men dont as much. I think this Era is going to be much more nuanced than the last.
No they dont emobdy it you just a clown
I think the manic pixie dream girl can be written properly because I feel like I’ve met her. She’s 25, she just finished college and entered the work for. The last thing she wants to do is worry about her future like most 20 somethings. Her goal is to live life randomly until inspiration strikes.
You are completely, and I believe intentionally, ignoring the cultural war on femininity, which explains 90% of your opening question.
What cultural war on femininity
Delulu
This is really well explained, I think you make a good point for a that sort of ideal medium you speak of. A female character that is optimistic and unique and uplifting, with depth and dreams and strength and aspirations.
Saying "Mary Sue has turned into an insult for characters someone doesn't like" while showing Rey.
I see what you all are trying to do here, and you are not succeeding. Rey is absolutely a Mary Sue.
Nah she isnt. You are just clownish twat
Rey isnt a mary sue you are just clowns and baffoons
@@johnjordan211 cope
@@ChristopherBurtraw I am not the clown who is upset by her beating a guy with a giant hole in his stomach
@@johnjordan211 more cope. Better yet, straw man cope. How fun
FYI, Old woman observation ---- these were real girls in the 80s, we didn't need them in the movies yet ;)
Delving into manga/anime, it's fun to think of how, if the story of Fruits Basket was told through the POV of the brooding male characters of Kyo or Yuki instead, the actual lead Tohru could potentially be seen as a MPDG. She's always optimistic, she's the main motivation for either boy to perk up and find meaning in life again, she's definitely a love interest, and she's a bit quirky, which is the main reason so many are drawn to her. From the outside it's hard to even draw a character arc/see much growth.
However, since the story IS told from Tohru's perspective - the MPDG is the MC - we get to see her internal monologue. We see her struggle with life, and see her persistent optimism is actually more of a case of "If I don't laugh I will cry". She purposely grows to be a stronger woman to stand up for herself and loved ones, which includes Kyo and Yuki. We get to see her private breakdowns that she won't show anyone else, because she falsely believes she has to be (in not so many words) the MPDG for their sake.
All-in-all, it's kind of fun to see how simply shifting the story perspective shifts a character into or out of a trope.
They got replaced by the Ghostbusters reboot / Captain Marvel / Barbie / etc lectured-about-feminism-bored-out-of-your-mind "girl boss" type
Saying Rey is a Mary Sue is not an insult, it's a fact
Rey is the patron saint of mary sue's
She isnt a mary sue you are just clowns
@@Bow-to-the-absurdshe isnt a mary sue you are just clowns maldong about eveything
She is the text book example of a Mary Sue. She everyone likes her, she's great at everything, never fails or has to learn any tough lessons for her choices. I say this as someone who wanted to like her, as I bought her figure for my goddaughter instead of one of leia as I wanted her to have a heroine of her own generation for Christmas when they had figures both both. Unfortunately Rey turned out to be a dud and neither of my nieces liked her despite liking star wars. My eldest niece actually wanted her go to dark side since that would been fun to see an evil disney princes she said. Nope, boring invincible Rey pleases no one but feminists who probably never liked Star Wars in the first place.
@@Lastjustice yes keep lying clown lol. She lost against snoke do she did fail. Cope and seethe
Studios have made the decision to not make movies that men will enjoy. Thus explaining the fact that big moves are making half as much money as they used to and the disaperarance of the manic pixie dream girl.
They turned into a leather “DADDY” collar
Cheers for this, I was just thinking about this trope today.
It’s absurd to insinuate Rey is anything other than a Mary Sue. She instantly becomes the best at everything without zero training whatsoever, besting everyone else with literal decades of training and has nothing but mld superficial flaws that aren’t even personal flaws to overcome. How is she not a Mary Sue?
so she definitely is, but I really think it could have been hand waved away with a throw away line from either Luke or Leia that she was clearly a prodigy. and the thing about Star Wars is that it has a built in "as the plot demands" deus ex machina in The Force. I mean, Luke has an arc, but he's also a bit of a Mary Sue. dude's got way less training than Obi-Wan did at the age he beat Maul... Obi struggled in that fight, nearly lost it even. But somehow Luke, with like a month's experience of wielding the Force OVERPOWERS Vader? Darth Vader? the fucking Chosen One? okay. talk about plot armor.
@@Oboro86It also could have been avoided if she had lost the fight on Jakku when she first met Finn.
@@Oboro86 Luke had more training and got his ass beat by Vader in the first duel even though Vader was a shallow husk of his former self. A shallow husk that never tried to actually kill Luke to begin with. This is all while being the actual child of the chosen one.
By comparison Rey, having never even known what a lightsaber was, instantly becomes a duelist capable of beating Kylo who had been training for most of his entire life, uses the force pretty much instantly since hearing of it, also a master mechanic, which OK maybe she knows tinkering but also knows the ins and outs of an old ship she's never seen, but also a master pilot despite being exceptionally poor and likely never having been on a ship much less piloting one, and even later having the ability to just force heal fatal wounds out of nowhere as well as force holding then lightning and destroying full on cruiser with even less training from Luke. Also, she's managed to just fly while meditating for shits and giggles.
Saying she was clearly a prodigy doesn't fix bad storytelling. She was bullshit, Luke was not.
@@Parker--nah you are absolute baffoon if you think rey should have lost kylo ren who had a giant hole in his stomach lmao. She lost to snoke and none of you clowns seen to ever acknolegde that. Or the fact that luke beat vader on spaceship combat
@@mrdankhimselfwhy shoudl she lose in jakku? Thats stupid. She lost to snoke
I wanted to be Claire so badly growing up. A lot of her lines are still firmly planted in my vocabulary
I mean, to be fair, Rey does actually match the Mary Sue archetype pretty well. The problem is that Disney used the backlash as a means to turn her into the center of a culture war for their own financial gain. When you turn rational people who can tell what a poorly written character is into "The Enemy", then the only ones who win are those who are fabulously wealthy. Especially when we can no longer actually tell who the true "enemy" actually is, because we've been conditioned to expect it to apply to "everyone except the person responsible for lighting the match."
She absolutely fits it. Majority of the protagonists instantly like her, Leia even goes out of her way to hug her in TFA without even meeting her beforehand. She ends up with everyone's stuff and even gets approval from beyond the grave to take the Skywalker last name. Her initial abilities from TFA in regards to the force are literally downloaded from Kylo Ren. Then to make sense of it they bring up/create force dyads. She displayed more or equivalent power in her first week to a year than the "Chosen one" did in the majority of his career.
@@HeavyMetalJesus02none of that is evidence she is a mary sue because people like her lmao
No she isnt a archtype of the mary sue. And you deserve to be insulted after all the death threats you gave lol
@jefftonsman > instantly learned abilities
> instantly liked by most if not all protagonists
> antagonist falls in love with her
> ends up with all the protagonists things
Those are all things that help her be a Mary Sue.
@@HeavyMetalJesus02 none of these are marys traits lol. Are you upset po learnt chi without training at all? Or the dozens of protagonists who are liked by everyone? Why wouldn't they be?
Everyone always says of this type of character that she has no goal except to cheer other people up, but isn't cheering other people up a great goal in life?
Its a view of them from the main character not their actual character, I don't mind them honestly
idk why this concept is so hard to grasp for women
@@eebbaa5560because a lot of them "think" with emotions instead of using logic and reasoning to temporarily shift their perspectives
I feel like Jennifer Lawrences' character in No Hard Feelings does a good job of undermining and redefining the MPDG. We follow her POV, and we see her failing and making mistakes throughout the film, however she remains optimistic, outgoing and bubbly, especially in the the eyes of the dorky, male lead she's paired with. Interestingly he also subverts his own stereotypes too.
I think the Scott pilgrim anime "fixes" or explores this in a nice way giving ramona growth
Ramona was better protraied in the original comics
Nothing about the pilgrim movie requires 'fixing'
Its borderline perfection.
@@erdood3235the creator was involved with the anime and they hold in a interview they didnt want to retell the same story for the third time. Fleshing out the story characters and universe is a good choice anyway.
@Bow-to-the-absurd Scott Pilgrim Takes Off isn't "fixing" the original so much as building off of it in a new direction. It's all the same characters, but when their circumstanceschange, they start growing in new ways. I highly recommend it.
@@Bow-to-the-absurdcope
TIL Yoda is a Manic Pixie Dream Girl.
I was a real life manic pixie dream girl for my partners - and I hated it. I am quirky, unconventional, weird, creative, ... but it's my ADHD and my autism. Which I didn't know. I wasn't quirky to be cute or different, I just didn't get how to act 'normal'. And I see a lot of autism and ADHD traits in these maniac pixie dream girls.
(My favorite is Sophia from Vanilla Sky.)
This was really interesting. Thank you for your work. 👍🏽
I'm glad the archetype has faded away. It made an entire generation of men blind to many bright red flags in women.
You are trashy clowns
Captain Wentworth in Jane Austen's Persuasion (1817) is the perfect example of MPDB so the trope has been around for a long time. And if you want a MPDG with depth and motivation then you already have it in the character of Gwen Stacy in the two superb Spiderverse animated films.
Don’t imply that Rey wasn’t a Mary Sue
She isnt so cope
They grew up, had kids, and got fat. The infantilization of women was a thing that didn’t age well. They’re still trying to do this on TicTac, with the pixie girls all nonbinary now.
As someone who is the living embodiment of a mpdg, these characters can exist and still be deep. Let's bring them back in a quality way!
I also am somewhat of a Manic Pixie Dream Guy, so I agree with you.
I would make a case that Robin from Stranger Things is a subversion of the manic pixie dream girl. She starts off as this quirky hyperactive character that serves to keep the jock in check but as it goes on, she becomes more fleshed out, she has her own issues and goals and in a sense, Steve the dumb jock kinda serves as the manic pixie dream boy as it goes on only without the romantic subplot because another subversion that you would never have seen back when the manic pixie dream girl was the biggest trope in cinema; she's gay. I think they've done really well with Steve and Robin's relationship because rather than one being pure motivation, the two bounce off each other so naturally. If they were to revamp the trope of manic pixie dream girl, they should definitely look at this relationship as the new blueprint
And that's the difference between a TV show and a movie. Movies have very limited run time and don't have the ability to flesh out every character. That's just the nature of the medium.
I like how in Scott Pilgrim Takes Off they focus more on Ramona and her prior relationships with the Seven Evil Exes without really changing her personality.
Romana Flowers and Clementine= Unrelenting optimism? There is actually a lot more examples in this video that showcase a MPDG who is dour and pessimistic that counters this point because they missed core component of the Trope which is character being "socially unconventional". You know the "manic" and "pixie" part of the description. I won't lie, the video is right that often they are props and poorly written as such though I would say that is because MPDGs are doing triple duty as being: "the call to adventure", "the adventure"(in romcoms at least), as well as one of the characters. When a character is doing that much work to hold up a story, it becomes tough to build in story arcs or character development without kicking the base structure out from underneath it.
I'd say video also missed the underlining connection between stoic tough girls or STGs and MPDGs. I don't have any study or book to draw this conclusion besides noting the times they sprung from and the filling the same role. I hypothesis is that: Manic Pixie Dream Girls are the other side of the coin of Fem Fatales. Both Romcoms and Noir movies arrived in the early 20th century to more generalized public with the advent of Movie Theaters existing(yes, duh) and also the dourness of post WWI. Inside Noirs, Fem Fatales where "the call to adventure" for the detectives through an unconventional female character who eschew the reserved motherly figure society thoroughly upheld then. MPDGs did the same but with less possibility of being murdered, as appropriate for most Romcoms.
What I am saying connects this all together is that Stoic Tough Girls are modern equivalent of Fem Fatales stripped of their femininity (and sometimes their sexuality) as a response to the criticisms listed in this video. The fault line in this statement is that STGs are given many more leading roles unlike FF (outside a Luc Besson film), but they do hold the characteristics of deadliness and eschewing convention. Take calm unflapped demeaner of FF Mrs. Rabbit in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" (yes, I'm showing my lack of Noir watching), Romana in "Scott Pilgrim vs. World", and the Full Metal B*tch in "Edge of Tomorrow". All of them are unpredictable, all are stoic, and all are used in the framework of the adventure of the story. All of these tropes aren't somehow opposite ends of the spectrum, but sides of the same coin... or dice because there is more than two. Better metaphors are welcome in the comments as well as disagreements.
PS April Ludgate in Parks and Rec is obviously a MPDG in that show, though I do enjoy the argument made that Andy is the guy equivalent.
Im only 43 seconds into this video but its showing a lot of Eternal Sunshine and literally the whole point of Clems character is that shes NOT a manic pixie dream girl so this is a very bad start lol
I never thought I could loathe a movie more than Pushing Tin, then I saw Garden State.
The pendulum is swinging back, the box office is reflecting that we don't want strong, stoic, masculine women
You hate female characters who are bad ass
@@johnjordan211 Where in my comment did I say I hate bad ass women?
@@Chyronn what does stoic strong or masculine mean then
@@Chyronn cat got your tongue
@@johnjordan211 Well, unlike you, I actually have a life outside of replying to comments. And instead of arguing me on my point, why don't you respect that it's my opinion and realise that people will disagree with you. And I re-iterate, where did I say I hate these types of women? Also your issue isn't with me, it's with the video itself because he says the same thing.
This makes me think of Space case from doom patrol the show ended before they could flesh her out much tbh but you could see what they were going for with bringing a litteral 2d comic book character to life and having her come to terms with the fact she was written as part of someone else's story and having to figure out who she actually is an actual person
I'm not a fan of using scenes of Rita Vrataski from Edge of Tomorrow as examples of going too far in the other direction. Vrataski was an outstanding character with more depth than this video would imply. Also it fails to mention the times even Zoeey Deschanel was used to try and subvert the Manic Pixie Dream Girl stereotype in films like 500 Days of Summer. Summer starts out seeming like a prop but ends up being her own character to show just how broken protagonist Tom is. Tom lives in an alternate reality where she fulfills the MPDG role for him but that isn't reality.
Rey is 100% a Mary sue 😂
I love manic pixie dream girls. So fun.
At 7:00, i think one thing that is missing in the analysis is that movies only have 2 hours to give some character development, and tell a story. Its a lot to pack into a small timeframe. Tv shows have more runtime due to episodes and seasons, so Stranger Things as an example can change a character, with the passage of time and events, which is more realistic to real life. In real life, people often take time and experiences to exhibit change in their character.
The Scott Pilgrim anime on Netflix is part of this redemption, making Ramona essentially the main character and having her ideas and actions drive the show. And it is AWESOME!
When you brought up the MCU at the end I was reminded of Iman Velani's Ms. Marvel. She seems to me like everything we associate with the classic MLDG, but with added emotional stakes and character depth.
I know what happened. They were deemed sexist/misogynistic and plenty of articles/videos were written about how they're just there to heal a man, so movies got rid of them. They have been replaced by "strong woman" characters. The pixie dream guy is okay because no one cares if a male character is depicted that way.
Personally I never liked the MPDG. I've met women who could be described as such and I can't stand them. Though I will say, story wise, they are far more interesting than the strong woman characters they've been usurped by.
You hate female characters who are srong and bad ass get it you are awful people
Even in the movies, by the definition you have put in the movie, Ramona Flowers is not a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. She is not full of life an sunshine that brings the main character out of his gloomy shell. She is all about gloom actually. She has run away from her past, which is pretty detailed and it is actually Scott Pilgrim that brings joy to her by his quirckyness.
I love the concept of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Highlighting how they're used to bolster a male main character's arc was a very important thing for me to hear, and is a very valid criticism of the archetype. Making them optimistic and carefree for themselves, and them _choosing_ to hang out with a mopey male lead (or not; why not make an MPDG the main character?) gives them agency and a mind of their own. Maybe a character arc for an MPDG is learning boundaries, both others' and their own. Maybe she (or he, in the case of an MPD guy) learns from the mopey male lead about how it's okay that life isn't all sunshine and roses, just like the mopey male lead learns from them that gloom and sadge doesn't have to define their life. I'm glad this isn't a "this trope is problematic and should be eradicated" video, but a "this trope has problems, let's fix it" video.
I’m sorry wait did you just call John Bender a “dumb jock”. I gotta go bye
Kind of feel a bit called out coz I feel like if I were to be a living breathing trope I’d probably be a manic pixie dream girl with identity issues and the reality is you just get lost and stuck as you watch the world move by
I miss Manic Pixie Dream girls so much
People that think this is a valid criticism lack the imagination to understand that some stories are written completely in the perspective of one character getting to know the other. Pretty much all relationships start on a superficial level like the MPDG/B, and, like in at least some of the stories mentioned, the main character gets to know the other character and appreciate them and or life on a deeper level.
I agree. Moreover most films that utilise the MPDG aren't actually traditional Romcoms but are movies with different themes or commentary under the guise of Romcom.
In a traditional romcom maybe it would be a valid criticism that the female lead isn't fleshed out but in most movies MPDGs are used as a troupe to further the plot. While they might be the female lead they aren't the focus of the movie and might as be the side character.
Maybe in show their characters might be more flesh out and well rounded but in a 2 hour movie it's hard to do so.
Heck, the whole message of the movie 500 days of summer wouldn't work if summer wasn't a MPDG.
I don't like how Clementine was displayed here - Joel thought of her that way, but as the film goes on, both Joel and the audience realize she's not that. . . She's got issues.
Bring back the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, that was one of the best archetypes and what made romcoms enjoyable for men. Manic Pixie Dream Girls don't need to be fleshed out, if one is able to do it in an non-distracting way great, but it's not necessary. Not every character in a story needs huge amounts of depth, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was there to balance the turmoil of the male protagonists which is not a bad thing. Every movie that had Manic Pixie Dream Girls were huge successes, if not in the box office then at the very least culturally speaking. We want them back, and are sick and tired of girl bosses, the past ten years are evidence enough of that.
feminists ruin good film.
The reason we don’t see them anymore is in real life all the girls are crafty edgy thrill seekers now. Innocence is dead.
This spit your fax
A character like Kamala Khan is the answer here. She has a LOT of the Manic Pixie qualities while still being a fully realized and actualized character. She’s a breath of fresh air and we need more like her.
I came here to say this. Right on.
I felt bad for Deschanel. She only played those characters on a few occasions and the majority of her roles had a lot of substance. It reminds me of how Scorsese is associated with mafia films but he’s only made 3 to 4 mafia themed films over a 50 year career.
the implication that andy dwyer is a manic pixie dream boy is criminal. otherwise 10/10
It's interesting that in the final minutes of the video, as the narrator talks about examples of the extreme manic-pixie or stoic tough girl, the video clips are all from film. And then the narrator transitions into exploring characters that have more depth and complexity and starts showing clips from television shows. To what degree are shallow characters in film a product of that format?