Broadsword vs Smallsword Gareth vs Nick
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- Опубликовано: 29 янв 2017
- Military vs Civilian sword. The broadsword is a heavy and powerful cutter, but the smallsword weighs less than half it's weight, with equal range, but no cutting ability at all.
Far from a conclusive answer to what would happen when these swords met (and they did), it is merely one example of how it could have gone and some interesting exchanges.
"Smallsword? Heh, that's guys gonna get wrec---Oh, it's Nick. Nevermind."
Exactly my thought process
HebaruSan Imagine Nick with a holy spadroon and unscrewable pommel
LMAO.
Most of the authors of broadsword treatises considered the smallsword a superior weapon for individual combat.
+lander D Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that most broadsword treatises were written before smallswords existed. They may have thought that about the rapier.
P.S. Oh also "smallsword" was used to refer to all sorts of weapons in different time periods simply for being shorter than a longsword or thinner than a highland broadsword.
It's interesting to see the efficacy of something like a small sword defensively - it's performance is admirable against the broad sword. I guess that would extrapolate to defensive ability against arming swords generally. Much like the rapier - it's clearly capable of dealing with much heavier weapons, though maybe not longsword and and pole arms, unlike it's bigger cousin. It a surprise to me - I didn't think it would be such a practical civilian defence weapon in such a range of contexts. But then I suppose it wouldn't have cropped up in the historical record if that was not the case, eh?
No doubt that it lacks the versatility of most edged weapons. But I imagine that it was a good choice of weapon over having nothing, especially for the gentry at court, who likely expected to only ever use it as a dress sword and badge of social status, and a duelling weapon. It also explains why duelling became so frowned upon over time - it often killed both parties involved. The double kill phenomena also explains the limitations that can be seen in modern sport fencing today. In places like London though, with city ordinances that limited the length of rapiers, dictating that they be "cut down to size," I can see why the small sword became popular in the late 1600s and early 1700s.
Indeed, the smallsword gets a bad rep, something the rapier has done for a long time, but is now overcoming. Personally I do have a few reservations about the smallsword, but there I no doubt it was a very popular and very successful weapon in a civilian context.
As an easy to wear sidearm for civilian dress, it is a very practical and useful tool.
While smallswords were successful civilian weapons, I am curious about the military swords that were designed to be used by smallsword/foil (or rapier) practitioners. Swords such as the 1882 French sword, a lot of the 1786 British regulation swords, and many other so called "short-rapiers" and long smallswords that could cut. Could you do a video on this please? Especially regarding their effectiveness in battles and such.
Rapiers can take longsword strikes. Even I was quite surprised how much they can take a beating. Eventually, rapiers and small swords became my favorite swords
Actually blades of small swords were a lot different among each other. Some had solid thickness at first third of a blade, and those used exclusively as a part of dress code, were very thin and weak. But, none was thin, square and flexible as foil blade, and I assume this one Nick is using has a foil blade.
A few years back Nick, you and I had a chat about Smallsword and at that time you were not a fan. But here it seems you are doing everything with a Smallsword that I was happily extolling the virtues of. Nice to see ... and I practice both Small and Broadsword/Sabre from Roworth/Angelo era also. One of the comments often made was that it was best for a Swordsman to begin training with Smallsword before moving to Broad so as to pick up many of the nuance and niceties of subtle circular wrist actions and thrust work. Those who know only the Broad or Sabre are often not well prepared for the speed of the direct thrusting attacking play found in this art but those who know both and preferably Smllsword first will always have a tactical advantage.
I still have much the same opinion. It can be a very effective weapon, and should be respected, but its weight and lack of cutting ability is too much of a compromise. In that regard it is a very efficient killer, but lacks some defensive qualities. I have used smallsword on and off for many years, being a rapier and sabre instructor, it is easy to introduce as and when. I do have plenty of respect for the smallsword though.
one thing i'm dying to know is how the small sword would do as an offhand paired with something like a rapier or saber being essentially a middleground between a second rapier or a dagger with it's light weight and shorter range keeping it from falling into a lot of the pitfalls dual rapier falls into(though ofcourse it loses the options the edges and greater range provide in turn).. since the moment i discovered this thing i thought "this would make a really interesting offhand!"
As someone who likes to read and write stories, this channel is quickly becoming one of my favourites. It's such an iècredible source of references and information, thank you guys !
Glad you are enjoying it. On that note though, you should know that the two of us who run the AHF clubs and this channel, are novelists by day. We draw a lot of inspiration for our writing from our research and practice for the AHF. Even though we are Sci-fi authors :-) If you want to look us up our author names are Nick S. Thomas & Michael G. Thomas.
Have you recently been talking about Rob Roy in class by any chance? xD
Oh man, this is interesting. *Sabre guys in background start going at it* Wait, what did I miss? *Rewinds*
Thanks Nick for continuing to post these sparring vids, and especially theses mixed weapon fights. I'll admit, never having held a small sword just thinking about it in abstract I assumed it would perform much less favorably against the larger blade. It is really a fascinating style!
It does seem to allow/encourage more closing and grappling than most other fencing. Is that reflected in the treatise?
Indeed, the smallsword is often underestimated, it can parry much heavier blades if done right, and is lightning fast on in point work. Yep, most smallsword treatise include extensive closing and grappling, and it's short size compared to say a rapier, really encourage it. It's lack of cutting ability over a sabre/broadsword encourage it to, as parried thrusts are easy to close on, and there is no risk of counter cuts upon closing. Not having sharp edges they are also much easier to take hold of that most blades.
I would love to see a smallsword paired with an offhand dagger.
I'm always fascinated by these videos, is there any chance you could organise another mixed weapons match again? Or maybe a mixed weapon melee! If not, maybe some montante sparring because that seems to be nigh on impossible to find any good footage of a greatsword/montante/zweihander duel. Thanks :)
nice sparring as always. that Smallsword seems really useful for self-defence for civilian. btw, i have some question to ask you, how thick is the longsword's blade? and when will the longsword sparring videos upload? thx for your vids and reply :P
Have you tried the Leon Paul smallsword? I've found it to be a bit stiffer than alternatives, and thus a bit better at parrying
would the guy with basket hilt sword be better of thrusting against the smallsword too like in rapier single time counters or would it be better if he he did more strong cutting towards the smallsword: does a thrust defeat a thrust or a cut???
i am so interested in fencing but there aren't any fencing clubs or sports clubs with fencing nearby , does any one know where to learn fencing in saudi arabia ??? please !!
This sparring really shows why smallswords defeated sabers as dueling weapons. When you see the footage and think about it (not mentioning if you actually did it), its scary, how fast this needle can pierce you. One can discuss whether historical smallsword edge would withstand strong sabre cut or not, but many times damaging stop hit would be implemented before a sabre swing even started. And if you think about beating / transporting smallsword point off the line as attack preparation, the thing does not become any easier.
The guys with the sabres in the mid-ground are going ham....
Would you ever do a video criticizing/analyzing The fighting stances or character and weapon designs in the Fire Emblem series?
I hadn't considered it, and I am not familiar with the game. Probably not, I'd rather put my time into other things. I avoid pretty much all games that involve swords, as they are just boring. Shooting mechanics work far better for gaming, but sword based stuff is just button mashing.
What i see a lot is the wrong stance with smallsword fencers. In almost all historical treatise you see them standing with the weight on the back leg, torso either straight or more lend backwards. This is a big difference to for example sports fencing where they make themself small and lean towards the front, with the balance /weight between both legs. Here in this video i see the smallsword fencer (no offense) doesn't give so much importance to the stance and leans forward so often, also starting attacks from the front leg. He does take the right stance sometimes too, but rarely tho (like in 02:12). The smallsword is a weapon that relies on getting the point fast on the target with your upper body out as much as possible (except for the lunge of course) to give as less chance as possible to get hit by an opponents point. I think smallsword fencing is a fencing art where it is really important to watch every correct movement, stance and detail, something which a lot of HEMA fencers are not used to (especially if they are used to more brute systems and heavier weapons who don't rely so much on accuracy like the smallsword). We should not forget, this fencing style was used in the court of kings where appearence played a big role. It was not a battlefield weapon (altho some english masters wrote manuals to use it on the battlefield as well), we should not forget to honor and practice the right appearence when fencing with this weapon and watching the details.
Damn, that was beautiful. Though that may be because it was so familiar. The guards, footwork, and lunges were all exactly as I was taught in foil fencing back in the eighties. Which is to say, nothing like what sport fencing has become.
I really wonder now about my instructor and his thought processes. I know he was taught by a "mad Pole" who had mensur scars. I wonder if what appears to be very traditional small sword based training I had was considered old-fashioned at the time.
Likely it was. There used to be a number of sport fencing instructors that held on to traditional ways. They have mostly gone now, but classical fencing and also smallsword elements of historical fencing have carried on the more traditionalist ways.
Yeah, that would explain my surprise and confusion when RUclips became a thing and I started looking up fencing videos. The bouts looked nothing what I was taught, and that led me to discover HEMA. Sadly I live in rural Australia so I have to content myself with watching videos of other people having fun with swords. Such is life. and it's better than nothing.
Fossil Fishy there is a growing HEMA movement in Australia Paul Wagner at the Stoccata club is just one particular example but I am sure a few exist.
Nick with great sense of distancing, as always.
This is the very first video I see of a smallsword against anything else.
Would you mind telling us the length of that smallsword's blade?
The smallsword here is around 32-33" from memory. I'd prefer 30-31, as that is more the average, but this is how it came.
Really, you would prefer less reach on a thrust-only weapon? Would you mind explaining the rationale behind this preference?
I think he has - the ", as that is more the average" bit. A historical rationale, rather than a sporting one.
Oh. You are right, that is probably what he meant.
Exactly as Iona J said. I was talking about average lengths. Most original smallswords are 29-31" in blade length. I own four form the early to late 18th century and all fall in that range.
Nick, I was rewatching your vid and wondering if it would be ok to train the smallsword with a 90cm (sport épée length) blade instead of the usual smallsword length of around 77-80 cm I believe.
The reason I ask is because I practice sport épée and it would be awesome if I could use a smallsword that is identical in blade length. I am afraid that playing with two blade lengths on such similar weapons might mess up my distancing.
Thanks in advance for your answer.
I wouldn't say its ideal. 82cm was normally about as long as most smallswords got. There were some longer blades more around 90cm in the early smallsword and transitional rapier period, but they tend to be heavier and with edges, so an epee blade no long really works for them.
Also, I would say If you are going to practice with historical weapons, and not just those dictated by sport, I'd say it is really important to train with a range of lengths and sizes. You should get used to using a range. Look at the sabres I use for practice, I have them in blade lengths from 75-83cm.
Hi Nick, thanks for your answer. Somehow I replied earlier but my post got deleted.
If I may ask : why do you say that it is good to practice with a range of different weigths and blade lengths ? I mean, wouldn't say, someone's lunge be better calibrated if one only used the same blade length over and over ?
That is strange. We never delete comments unless they are rude or abusive, but YT can do some strange things.
Why use different blade lengths? Well historically people often did use a range of swords and blade lengths, and to only train with one length gives an over reliance on that length. Whereas, if you train with a range, you can become accustomed to using all very easily. I frequently use blades from 70-115cm for example. and that has meant that I can judge and effectively use the lunge with any length of weapon the moment I pick it up.
Historically this would be a very important thing, as often people did have to use different swords for a lot of reasons. In duels where weapons could be supplied. Where ,military swords were issued, where you needed to pickup a different sword because yours was missing or broken, all sorts of reasons.
It's a very modern sportive concept to train with an exact length all the time, as it is to always fight a matched weapon.
Thanks for your answer. Sounds pretty reasonable.
Hey Nick, I am coming back to this vid to ask you another hypothetical question. Assuming an equal blade length of 90cm (yes, still my obsession with the sport épée benchmark), which weapon do you believe would make the best duelling weapon ?
- a small rapier ?
- a long smallsword / colichemarde ?
I would have to go with the smallsword / colichemarde, since the triangular section would make it a better thruster. And since rapiers were never really good cutters anyways, wouldn't it make sense to focus on the best thruster, at equal reach ?
Thanks alot for your answer.
Would it be too much to ask for katana vs smallsword? I have always been curious about the performance of a smallsword against a katana.
It can certainly be done, I'll put it on the list to be done.
Thanks
Alemag Bit late, but I'd also really like to see this match up, so to speak, as I believe the heifht of duelling cultures of Europe/ Japan really overlap the most in the 18th century; I find that the most common representation of the Samurai has a lot more in common with an 18th century noble than a 14th century man-at-arms.
Is that a number 5 blade? I assume the blade is a sport epee, which seems to do better than expected against the heavy blade in parades.
I can't even imaging trying to fence smallsword in those gloves.
No it is made as a smallsword trainer, but is closer to a sport sabre blade than anything else, though shorter, around size 2. It is about the right weight compared to several originals I own. In the past I have used size 2 epee blades, or size 5 cut down, but this training sword came with the purpose made blade that was on it.
As for the gloves, you'd be surprised how much movement is in them. They have been customised and worn in over years and are very light and supple. Would I prefer to just use leather gloves? Sure, but then the risk against cuts from the broadsword is just too great.
I didn't think a smallsword could parry a cut of the broadsword due to its weight and not being as robust, I always thought a broadsword would just smash through it's defense. Guess this videos showed me something new .
Being beaten through is certainly a concern, its all about how you parry. If you keep your parries close to the guard where the blade is strongest and their cut is therefore provided the least leverage, its perfectly doable. Especially in hanging guards where you can absorb or deflect a lot of the energy. A lot of smallswords are in fact as broad and strong as many broadswords at the point where you want to parry, the forte. But the margin for error is a lot smaller than with a more robust blade.
On foot the point rules and the lighter weapon is clearly better. I wonder if he lunged more with the broadsword if he would have done somewhat better. The windup for the cut and then the swing follow through leaves huge openings and comes as no surprise. His guard position with the point up so high and weight on the back leg gives away a lot of distance and it keeps his point out of line much of the time leaving him a repost followed with a cut or a get ready I am about to cut at you from a mile away. HEEERREE III COOOMMMMEEEE RAAAAHHH! :)
Back weighting is common to a great many sabre, broadsword and smallsword treatise, it is all about weight removal form the front foot allowing it to both lunge and shift quickly, emphasising defence over landing a hit.
When you say lunge more, do you mean thrust more? He certainly did plenty of lunges on the cut. To be honest, I love it when people with the heavier sword in this scenario use thrust work, as it is slow on the disengage and therefore much more predictable, and the lighter blade can counter it easily, as most of the advantage of having the heavier sword is lost. It all comes down to a matter of leverage, or dominance of the blade.
In terms of the 'wind up' for the cut, that isn't a requirement, you can cut directly from the guard posture, but winding up allows rapid change of direction in double cuts, feints and double feints, much in the same way as the rapid disengages work for the smallsword.
21 foot rule smallsword?
how much should a hema smallsword cost on average ???
In UK pounds, starting at about £85 and upto about £200 for standard models.
Donald McBane moment holy shit
Can you do a messer vs longsword video?
Good idea, yes we can and will.
If I might suggest one other thing as well? I'm mainly just wondering if it exists. Is there a Broadsword and dirk style? If so could you show it against a katana and wakizashi combo? If not then maybe broadsword and targe vs same said combo above?
Sorry, I just love seeing two really different styles going against each other.
I would hate to get into a real sword fight. Getting skewered sounds really awful.
Yes Nick, speed decides almost everything. Great job!
01:30
PERFECT
is that just a sport fencing foil?
No, a training smallsword made by Red Dragon armoury. The blade is fairly similar to a sport sabre blade, though shorter, as well as the hilt being of typical smallsword form, with knucklebow, small shell and small rings. It weighs and handles exactly like several of my originals, whilst having a hilt of the same form too.
I know it’s still not excepted but I am learning lightsaber combat, it seems to be a mix of kendo, saber, and short sword combat
I use form 2 makashi. And I of corse have also learned foil combat before this
@@i-maxwalker3401 lame. Form 7 is where it's at
@@doloinc have we actually ever seen the strikes and blocks of Form 7?
3:46 uhh thats gotta sting
I'm still waiting for the piked phalanx XD
We need a larger cohort of fencers for a Phalanx! :)
HI, WHERE CAN I BUY SUCH SMALLSWORD ???
They are out of production, but I would recommend Historical Fencing Armory or Feather Smallswords
Was it just me who thought the small sword was a foil for a couple seconds... even with the title
Well a foil is a training version of a smallsword. so that is understandable.
Yes, indeed a training smallsword is less stiff for security purpose, which makes it a bit more like a foil.
What style is being used with the smallsword?
Not a defined one. I am an instructor of Rapier and Sabre/Broadsword, and have a basic overview of a few smallsword systems, so it is rather generic, whilst being based on the core principals that you will see with the weapon in that time period. It would be interesting to delve further unto smallsword, but one can only fit so many styles in to research, practice and teaching.
Academy of Historical Fencing Thank you for the reply. If that style is generic, it still looks effective.
Indeed, it is roughly representative of smallsword of the era, something like Domenico Angelo, whose son went on to teach both the smallsword and the broadsword, whose system we use in the club. I might mould ir further towards something like Angelo, but it certainly won't change much of what I am doing.
This is what I love, I got frustrated at sport fencing due to it's rigid rules. I wondered in history would it be likely you'd face an opponent with the exact same weapon? Do you agree before the battle that you are armed with a sabre. "so please don't hit my legs"? Whereas I'm armed with Smallsword/Epee. "So please consider my whole body as a target". Straightlines & no wrestling. Can't wait to start #HEMA.
Indeed. Nothing wrong with sport fencing, but it is a different path, strictly a codified sport rather than martial art. As for how often you'd face an opponent with the exact same weapon. Well it's a mix. Fashionable or military equipped weapons would often face one another for obvious reasons. But both in civilian life and the battlefield, mixed weapon fights were very common, as well as similar swords with completely different attiributes facing one another. Like cavalry sabre vs infantry sabre. European sabre vs Indian sabre (Tulwar) for example. And ultimately the most common weapon used on foot was musket and bayonet in the 18th and 19th century, so you'd like face those with a sword too.
It's Rob Roy with actual martial arts!
How much training does it take to avoid getting caught in the giblets with one of those sabres in the background?
And also; YOU HAVE GIANTS!
Depends on the person, but usually at least a year of solid training as a minimum for most people. Personally I hate wearing boxes, so I don't, and I just learnt to protect myself down there. I'd still recommend everyone else does though, that is my risk to take, nobody elses.
That's some price to pay for comfort. Cheers.
Smallsword is pretty underrated
Hellooooo Rob Roy
Are smallswords all that thin? That looks almost like an Olympic foil.
No they aren't. Pretty much all the blades we use for HEMA practice are thinner in profile than originals, because they are made blunt, and sometimes lightened for safety. Even though a smallsword isn't designed to cut, the edges are still quite fine and therefore are made thicker for safety, and as a result the edge profile needs to be reduced to make up for that. I have three original smallswords and will show them in another video soon.
As they said, practice swords are thinner for safety (if they bend, they are less likely to pierce) but a real smallsword is quite stiff. The blade is narrow, but since they don't have to cut, they are thick. Smallsword is successful from being a specialized (therefore uncompromised) weapon. Letting go of all cutting ability, and going all in into trusting power and point control.
Rob Roy!
notification squad here
No quarter will be asked
Nor given >:)
all I see is: Nick thrust to the chest and gets hit in the head by Gareth, over and over again for eight minutes
Really? Because that isn't what is happening. I just re-watched the two and a half minutes, there were 10 clean thrusts landed, mostly to the chest, where Gareth stopped on impact, or riposted in afterblow, but it was parried.
and the takeaway from this exercise is??
The smallsword can parry heavy cuts when done right. The broadsword does well to target the forearm of the smallsword user. The smallsword user has to be very wary of fast cutting ripostes and after blows, and that grappling is an important aspect for both which should not be neglected.
I have a pretty inexperienced perspective and i was quite impressed with
the smallwords ability to defend effectively. I've always thought that
grappling probably doesn't get the credit it deserves when it came to
actual combat. Thank you for your reply sir. I find these sparring
sessions to be very eye opening.
Very interesting, thanks.
So grappling is more important in this scenario than in sabre vs sabre? Is it because the smallsword is shorter, so you can and must come closer?
The smallsword isn't shorter than sabre, they fall roughly in the same range, this one is a little longer than my steel sabres and almost as long as the broadsword. Grappling becomes more significant here because one sword has no cutting ability.
What mask is Nick wearing? I really like it's shape, brings some bascinet feelings.
Leon Paul coaching contour fit. By far my favourite design on the market. I have been using this type for about 10 years now, and this is only the second one I have owned in that time. Replaced only because the lining was worn out. www.leonpaul.com/masque-maitre-darmes-contour-fit.html
Thanks for the detailed answer mate.
could you add some chinese weapons to your videos?
It is certainly something I would like to do, but my knowledge is only basic of them at this stage. Certainly the dao and jian are something I'd like to add. We do have one guy in the club who practices Chinese swordsmanship, will see what we can do.
Academy of Historical Fencing Thank you. I would appreciate that.
The tecnique from small sword looks like the epee sport tecnique with a foil.A shame foil fencing is more of speed than tecnique in a point that it looks like tag game
o-o
I am informed that sport fencing copied is tecnique from this style of small sword fencing.And some say from rapier fencing but thats more rapier wannabe.
Foil fencing was initially the practice version of smallsword, and it quickly evolved in to a sport alongside martial art. Epee is derived from the dueling weapon of the 19th century, though it too is derived from smallsword. Neither is really from rapier, you could trace the lineage yes, but its too far removed.
Sport fencing is impressive in what it does and incredibly athletic, but it doesn't really teach swordsmanship anymore. It has moved way past that, and simply evolved in to its own sport. But there is no problem with that. Sport Fencing and HEMA exist perfectly well side by side, and plenty cross over the two.
I said a shame for the ones that admire the the original tecnique when practice the sport,but i actually practice sport fencing alot,as a sport it,it feels very fun :D
But when im interested in watching the realistic combat style,i come to this videos.
(Thanks for answering my comment)
is that just a sport fencing foil?
Your comment double posted, I have already replied to the other. Foils, epee and sabre blades can all make solid smallsword training blades, but they need to be shorter, like a size 2, or even 0, as well as a hilt more like an original smallsword.
Academy of Historical Fencing oh whoops, haha
Academy of Historical Fencing oh whoops, haha ;)