Are Subjectivists Full of It?
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- Are subjective reviewers like @andrewrobinsonreviews , @cheapaudioman @SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac , @DarkoAudio full of it? Do there reviews have any value? We delve into the science and logic of subjective reviews, and finish with a shocking comparison.
Before I discovered Amir and Erin, I did make a speaker decision based on Cheap Audiophile, but after watching his videos and knowing that he prefers a "U" or "V" shaped frequency response (lots of bass and treble), and then hearing him decide a set of speakers was "too neutral" for him, I went for the "too neutral", having calibrated myself based on his tastes, and other reviewers also giving them high reviews. Naturally, once I discovered the objective reviewers, and found I'd made an "almost good choice", I was able to better predict what the upgrade would be, and I'm much happier with my sub-$800 speakers (ELAC DBR62).
I very quickly realized how full of it these guys are. I tuned in to a review and the dude talked in circles for the entire length of the video. I got nothing out of it. As someone who thinks rather scientifically (probably too much) I needed more. Thanks for the video. Your humor is great.
This channel is going places 🙌
Darko's latest video sums him up in a nutshell. He's talking about the best 2023/2024 EISA awards and he's barely heard any of the products. His recent room acoustics project was also pretty laughable being a keen acoustician myself. Huff does elaborate reviews in a Glassroom almost. It baffles me how he can talk about soundstage, depth etc in such a poor room.
can’t believe i’m just coming across your channel barely!! this is so awesome
Welcome aboard!
Subjective reviewers all claim that they don't publish reviews of products they dislike, but without them it's not apparent that they have even a shred of credibility.
They should just buy a product to dislike because they never want to upset a manufacturer.
I totally forgot i was subbed to this channel. Now binge watching all of your videos I missed. Brilliant stuff.
Welcome back!
All i ask for is a blind test so these golden ear subjective reviewers can prove to us how good they are at hearing the differences they claim to hear.
All i get are excuses why they can't do blind tests.
If you can't SHOW it
You don't KNOW it.
Absolutely true.
Even if they were confident they could pass a blind test, why would they want to take the risk of failing it? Passing it wouldn’t change anything anyway, so there’s no real benefit.
@@Hi85C
Passing it would give them credibility and demonstrate to everyone that they can be trusted because they can actually do what they claim they can do.
Talk is cheap
@@crazyprayingmantis5596Their audience already trusts their opinion. Again, it wouldn't change anything and wouldn't be worth the effort and risk. You would need a large number of people passing a test before it would have any sort of impact.
I appreciate all your videos and hard work.
Yes, they are! Too much verbal poopery among subjectivists!
Randy is low hanging fruit, really its 'designer room' Robinson that deserves more calling out, and Darko, hell even Jay too IMO...i mean, these guys have slick production teams helping them polish their subjective, paid for turds..but i understand that going hard on those bigger fish woud probably invite a legal dance.
The issue with these subjective reviewers is that its pretty clear theyre simply being paid to shill opinions to the audience, and they do this without disclosing the arrangement.
Keep up the content SA, youre intelligently mixing satire with audiophile industry commentry, critique and even a bit of reviewing.
❤❤❤
I'm very impressed by Robinson and Darko video quality. I think this gets them a lot of subs. I need to up my game.
@@scientificaudiophile Yep maybe...I don't mean to pick on him, but just look at poor old Randy; why do you think he's stuck reviewing Walmart level audio gear...if he upped his game, maybe he could compete with sacherin sweet Robinson and Mr big swinging Darko?
Or is it because Randy's done some market research and realized that lofi production and coming off hallway inibriated will win him a fair chunk of the audience (the larger portion, who can't fork out $$$), likely he also can't be arsed spending the money himself on higher production values, so there's that...and it might be he's also wanting to avoid becoming a full blown self absorbed narcissist like the other two.
@@user-ff8ww8bq9q Yeah Randy is looking for value. Even objectively Randy could be right, for the price. He is considering value too.
Maybe start by moving the camera about 10 or 12 inches farther back from your face? I'm getting an almost "fisheye" perspective from this one.@@scientificaudiophile
Darko's latest video sums him up in a nutshell. He's talking about the best 2023/2024 EISA awards and he's barely heard any of the products. His recent room acoustics project was also pretty laughable being a keen acoustician myself. Huff does elaborate reviews in a Glassroom almost. It baffles me how he can talk about soundstage, depth etc in such a poor room.
I like Steve's philosophy. There are more audiophiles channels out there, some better others worse, although they speak other languages as many great musicians do. Usonian community is great but it's only part of it; in English British Audiophile is a subjectivist channel with technical knowledge, De Audiofilos y Locos is an american musician in New York that speaks in Spanish and sometimes in English about Music and subjectives reviews, Francisco del Pozo is a subjectivist Spanish channel that measures in room responses and has a different point of view about mixing pro audio with home audio, Asociación de Audiófilos de México is an American subjectivist reviewer in Mexico with a great room, "great" cables, that speak about music and hifi jewellery, Miguel Ángel Racero is a technician that repairs and speaks about technical stuff on the objectivist side of our hobby, Daniel Irey is another American from Chile in Japan that is like me, subjectivist and objectivist, and speaks about acoustics and culture, etc... Many more out there, some might even like wine.
It's just music. How bad is even average gear these days? Is it really that hard to take $1k, pick components at random, and not have a decent system?
Unfortunately, yes, a very big YES.
Unlike cheap watches that are accurate at least twice a day, some reviewers seem never to be accurate. That is why I take my advice from the one with the best looking jacket.
Well said!
Paid comercial.😀
I wish all these RUclips "influencers" would just review fit, finish and features. No one can tell you you are going to like the way it sounds. Only you can tell by listening to it.
Love your vids. Very creative......are you a professional stand-up comedian?
No, definitely not a pro comedian. Not sure why you would say that since none of my videos are humorous. I take audio very seriously.
Because he subjectively though you were funny. That's what he heard.
I've never in my life paid 8,000 USD for speakers...those would be toys not even worth my 600 hours to burn in.
But, you could fly to Bali on vacation, and leave them running for 600 hours. They will be ready when you come back.
I follow both Erin and Cheapaudioman. I want to remain within realistic prices..
I prefer flat reaponses for the reason that Georges Cabasse gave: the equipment must reproduce the input sound with as little difference as possible (I do own 30 years old Cabasse Fun bookshelf speakers).
I often disagree with the Cheapaudioman, and with this channel, but I found both interesting when they challenge my opinion: that helps me have more "educated" expectations.
It seems everyone wants flat until they get a pair of speakers or headphones, then they want to match the Harmon target curve, or their own curve. I do prefer flat for everything, with as little distortion as possible, then I can eq to my liking.
Cheapaudioman thinks he can tell a sound difference between different AC power cables. He told people who care about measurements not to watch his channel and look at pretty graphs instead. I don't know how anyone can consider him objective.
He’s not.
have you seen Randy's Weisenheimer's latest review? he went all Darko with a 'freshly-scrubbed bathroom glass door clarity' analogy
No, I’ll have to check that out. Thanks.
Years ago I purchased Klipsch RP600M speakers because Guttenberg's review was over the moon. The second I unboxed the speakers I was disappointed. Some may say that midrange is the heart of the music. The Klipsch have no heart. After 2 long years of loathing my speakers I walked into a bunch of showrooms and figured that single driver speakers sounded more lifelike. Heck, I even think that the KEF LS50 and LS60 sound dry and mildly grainy despite the numerous awards. My conclusion is don't trust reviews, listen for yourself.
Thanks for the comment. Make sure you get a return guarantee.
I trust Guttenberg. I consider him a trained listener. I think he is giving his honest impression of how music is rendered. I may have a different take than he does; but I am comfortable with his reviews as starting points.
Thank you for your astute observations and wonderful humor. I believe we all need both! Thanks again! 😊
I love how you stir the pot, bud 🤣
ASR is to accurate audio reviews like Thunderbird and mad dog 20/20 are to fine wine.
Where is Helmholtz?
He didn't want to be on camera. Too busy chasing mice . I'll get him on next time, he'll be happy someone misses him.
At lest someone is telling the truth.
Subjective, objective, i’m the guy with the DAC. ...and I am unanimous in that.
"Ok listen up you primitive screwheads, this is my DAC!"
Honestly, that orange blazer is everything
Very entertaining! Thanks 😂
And he is back, alive and kicking.😅🤣😂
The Cheap Audio Man is *NOT* an objective reviewer.
That aside... subjective reviews are based on thin air. "I heard this" ... okay... prove you heard it! They can't.
Now i don't know about anyone else but there's no way I'm spending my hard won cash on anybody's baseless opinion.
I'm hoping my baseless opinions hold some weight with you!
@@scientificaudiophile
Your channel popped up on my screen only a few days ago ... time will tell.
Prove you heard it LOL
@@scientificaudiophile
After 8 months watching your vids, my answer is "No they don't".
There are most definitely the true believers and the shills - or the "charlatans" as Peter Aczel put it.
I prefer.THC over alcohol for critical listening.
Definitely improves concentration.
Thank god i build diy speakers so i dont have to swallow dead ratts/audio reviews by people who are desparate for meaning in their lives.
Definitly the ones who won't demostrate their claims.
The hi-fi mag types claim it's the net and not perfect, so demos are not good at all.
Convenient.
I personally slam a bottle of Jose Cuervo Especial Gold before I make up my mind on a loudspeaker or amp.
your glasses are sitting objectively too high up on your face
I'll work on that. If you had said subjectively I would have looked for another opinion, but since your statement is fact, I don't have to. Thanks.
This is just great! @@scientificaudiophile
They are there for entertainment. Use your own (Subjective) hears in the end to deside.
Some people believe in ethernet cables and switches its remarkable
I'm using an ethernet cable right now and it's working! I like a hard wired connection for stable Internet.
@@scientificaudiophile is it a quantum crystally aligned cable made by grey beard nude virgins tho
Interesting, comparing objectivists with subjectivists. Can you make a video, comparing OCD Hi-Fi Guy with Jay's Audio Lab? Ears versus money?
I love both their channels.
I mean if they say "it my subjective opinion" then I'm ok with it.
But they don’t. They tell you the differences are night and day, yet none of them are willing to do a blind comparison.
@@scientificaudiophile IF
You described cheapaudioman as obejectivist in the introduction, yet in your description, you list him as a subjective reviewer. Which is he in your opinion?
All of my opinions are correct- especially the ones perceived as wrong.
Cheap Audioman does not belong to objetivists. It's too close to Amir on screen and that's not good. Move him out, fast... :)
CheapAudioMan isn't an objectivist or subjectivist. I doubt he even listens, or if he does, for about five minutes. You can't pop out a review every day or two and act like you're spending any serious time with something.
@@scientificaudiophile You're right. He's just a bulk reviewist.
As a audophile from the 70's I find that reviewers have a language all their own. It's english but I have to try and imagine what they are hearing! I should pop down to my local audio store but there are less of these around these days, especially higher end audio. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with watching them on RUclips. BTW Bach's toccata and fugue in D minor- how does Ms. Bish compare to say, E. Power Biggs?
You're asking me to compare the Queen with the King? Sadly they never played together.
Shill'n everything they can get
😊 Best Radio You Have Never Heard 😊
Schilling is the way it seems. You’re way too generous. Thanks kindly!
I don't trust my ears, but they're the ones I've got.
For get A/B comparisons. Do more side-by-side reviewer comparisons. “Pair-ody” call it.
What about the subjunctive: I wish speaker tests were more Hegelian and reached a synthesis of subjective and objective.
Great work you doing.
So what about GR Research? Scammer?
I don't think he's a scammer.
@@scientificaudiophile "so him improving on speakers are legit?" Have you tested any of his improvements?
@@wicomms Not a one. However the people having their speakers "improved" could always have them tested. That's why I covered my response by saying "don't think", rather than simply 'he's not a scammer.'
I respect your opinion.
I only believe in reviewers who are not endorsed by an audio brand nor being paid by anyone or anything .
Any name ?
Scientific Audiophile
That would be weed.. not alcohol. Unless together
What about the reality of psychophysics!!! The craziness of objective physics.
I don't believe Randy is an objectivist at all, he is quite subjective. One thing is for certain, he has tripled sales of chiamps and chidacs in the U.S.!
He's not an objectivist or subjectivist.
@@scientificaudiophile - nontivist. 😂
Randy is a spokesperson.
The Subjectivist vs the Objectivist amongs reviewers is primarily a false dichotomy. Amir seems to stand alone as the sole remaining "Objectivist" reviewer. The rest, like Erin's Audio Corner and Audioholics offer both subjective opinion along with objective data. Guys like Steve Guttenberg and Andrew Robinson only provide subjective opinion. I simply don't understand why one would avoid seeing the data surrounding a product one is interested in. Is there any other mechanical or electronic enthusiast hobby where objective data is shunned besides Hi-Fi?
No.
Are you a harman trained listener?
Not yet. I'm waiting to hear back from them if they'll let me start at level 8, rather than 1 like everyone else. I've told them I'm not everyone else.
What about vagueavists ???
Yes.
Why are you talking about the Harman target in relation to speakers? You are showing pictures of the HEAPHONE Harman target. Is that just a mistake or do you think they are evaluating speakers based off of a headphone target????
Isn't that why everybody takes a speaker home first with a return policy ? Review videos aren't meant to be the holy word their or entertainment. Your review of the reviewers was subjectively snarky than I've ever seen 😁
Wow man you talked $8000 speaker but your video shows them reviewing a $500-$800 speaker maybe ? I've only seen headphone reviews based on that Harman curve. And most every reviewer I've ever heard says take me with a grain of salt go listen for yourself.
Ya know, I think reviewers should list their hearing capacities. I have asymmetrical hearing loss and tinnitus (see piccolo + family history). So, I learned the hard way that my upper frequency hearing only goes so far, and beware of metal anything. For organ recitals, I turn off the hearing aids. The good news? With damaged hearing, I'm not going to spend more money on audio than on hearing aids. Additionally, my damaged ears are only going to handle so much info. I suspect some of the subjectivist reviewers mentioned are in my leaky boat. FYI: All human hearing begins to degrade past age 21. I learned that 35+ years ago in "The psychology of music" grad seminar. Thanks for all that you do for point out the hubris and foolish of some reviewers.
My hearing capabilities have degraded as well. I can now only hear between 2 - 47,000 hZ. ☹️
@@scientificaudiophile If I can get beyond 15 kHz, I'd be shocked. It is a humbling thang. Aging is like puberty--every day there is something NEW and vaguely disturbing.
I like your channel but when you say fact and science in the same line, it shows you are either ignorant in the basic tenet of science or choose to ignore it. There is no fact in science, only peers agreement based on experiments and data collected with the current confinements of technology. When it comes to audio, there are many factors that affect measurements and the then there is how that data is presented. The most challenging in my personal opinion is presenting time. For example all frequency response measurements occur over time and pretty much are linear. Why does this matter? The distance the magnets on a driver has to move changes based on how much air needs to be moved to create a specific frequency. When this is linear the magnets have a much easier time. However music is not a linear frequency response. This can be measured with the right gear, equipment and testing material but none of the so called objective reviewers have showed it in their review process. Finally every piece of audio equipment measures differently in some aspect (even cables). Now what difference is audible and what is not is subjective.
No fact in science? So Hans Bethe was wrong, or just guessing at the Bethe Reactions, that power the Sun? Bah...
And your objective credentials are?
I’m the Scientific Audiophile.
can you review me
🙂
My informed opinion after being into Hi Fi since 1964, is that you so called reviewers are all full of it. Unless you can do honest double blind tests, you are just giving opinions. There's too much fake information on the internet.
If I buy a very expensive piece of gear I will like it at least initially over a cheaper one. It human nature. But I dare anyone who can tell the difference between decent cables and super expensive ones or between two power amplifiers etc.
Also most of these reviewers like the Cheap Audioman keep reviewing daily. When do they have the time to listen or break in these products.
Foe years i read The Absolute Sound until I got tired of Harry Pearson's pontifications.
The amount of snake oil being sold is unbelievable at prices that are astronomical.
Ultimately, I learned to stop listening to the equipment and start listening to the music. I get a kick out of reviewers who use studio recordings of bands. It's ridiculous paying good money to try reproducing something that's artificial. If you really like music, I only listen to classical, you can enjoy it even in a car stereo.
Nevertheless, I find your channel more honest than the others. I wish you all the best.
Can't tell the difference between power amplifiers? No difference, TOTL Macintosh, or $200 Sansui?
You need to listen to Diane Bish to fully understand the capabilities of your speakers.
You have to fix the noise in your videos. And I'm not talking about what's coming out of your mouth. How can a reviewer of audio and audio reviewers have so much audible distortion in their videos?
Fans. So many fans.
@@scientificaudiophile Want me to beat this guy up for you?
I listen to my critiques. They're the only ones letting me know my flaws. I though this video had far better audio than my last. I'll work on improving it for everyone. And yes, you can still beat this guy up for me. Thanks.
Because he's the real deal Larry!! I for one would prefer more white noise introduced into the background so the videos take on a performance art flava
The gain on my mic was set high. I thought I lowered it. Next video I'll should be better, but possibly a little quieter. Thanks.
You’re (your) on fire! Keep it up, man. One thing - when I click “more” to look for the link that’s not there, I see one of the following;
their
they’re
there
I’ll leave it to you to figure that out 😉
The link is the recommended video RUclips overlays in the last 30 seconds or so of the video. It’s to my Harman video. Thanks!
Dude! Quit raggin on everyone and put out content that supports your opinions.
I thought I made it pretty clear I don't have opinions, just facts.
This channel is funny in a farcical way but all the time...not so much...gets tiresome ..all the repetition...too too much...cu
But...Isn't that just the pattern of life unfolding (...)?