Spot on! From where I am from Slovakia has accepted us, rusyns, and for that reason we call ourselves slovaks unless we’re talking about the details. Ukrainians always felt the need to call us ukranian. They even came to our parts of our land (slovakia) and forced our schools to teach ukrainian as main language. My parents walked extra kilometers to different schools cos of that. My dad also burnt his ukrainian passport that was forced onto him despite living in slovakia. He went to the police station after and told them he lost it and that he had a slovak one. Cheers!
Ukrainian authorities today love to knock down soviet monuments; but when it comes to language and identity? According to kyiv the old Ukrainian SSR had a 100% correct policy and they still enact it to this day. My Mother is Podolian, way more 'Ukrainian' than a Rusyn person from even within eastern Carpathia, and even she is still salty how lockstep-Lviv the current state prescribed mova is. A nothingburger next to what ails that country now, but just ironic.
Ukraine! recognize Rusyn people and their language as a indigenous people to Rusyn Lands. What a double standard while recognizing Crimean Tatars but not Rusyns. Their self-governing right has to be recognized and protected as well.
Thank You! Ruthenians from Slovakia are not Ukrainians! They are Slavonic folk who had been using Byzantinium faith while living on territory of Kingdom of Hungary and Poland´s Galicia and Lodomeria. Greetings from Bratislava/Preßburg
Carpathian Rusyns are a unique part of the Ukrainian people with their own distinctive traditions and dialects. Or you tell me they are not recognized as Ukrainians in Ukraine?
My family came from Austrian Galicia and they were called Ruthenians, but over time this term died, nowadays most of the descendants that came from the region are called only Ukrainians.
Ukrainians deny rusyn being a sepatare ethicity they consider them a dialect of ukrainians coming into existence due to being separated historically by Hungary. Which is funny from the persprctive that if we apply this logic to ukrainians they are a dialect of russian...
The argument is senseless and boils down to a fact that "Rusyn/Ruthenian" is a parent superset from which Ukrainians, Belarusians and modern day Rusyns descended. I never saw a Ukrainian who's claiming the exclusive right to own the "rusyn/ruthenian" identity. Nobody ever denied that Belarusians descended from same Ruthenian origins as modern day Ukrainians. Still Belarusians themselves used "Litvin" identity, as they shared noble class from Grand Duchy of Lithuania, while Ukrainians kept rusyn identity and struggled for unification of rusyn people in their own state, which eventually got a name Ukraine. A lot of Ukrainian writers/thinkers/historians/statesmen used the word interchangeably. Ruthenian identity is bigger than present day nations. It's not exclusive for any present day nations, it's our shared ancestry.
@lemkowithhistory the misunderstanding comes from mixing apples and oranges, medieval ethnicities, and modern day nations. Let's look at the history: • In Kievan Rus people call themselves "Rus people". • Muscovites hijack the word and create word "Russia" and "russian/русский", still they can't force russian identity on everyone and they call non muscovite Rus people "малоросы" • Ruthenian people in Kingdom of Poland and later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth call themselves "rusin/русин", not only in the Carphatian region, but in the Dnieper Ukraine as well. Here's the quote from Cherkasy starosta (mayor) from 1620: "...то страхи на ляхи, а я єм русин. Видает король его мл., ж-ем русин, а позви мини по полску шлеть." • Statutes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1588 states that government official statuses can be possessed by «давніх продков того Велікого князства Літовского урожоний літвін, русін і жамойт» These medieval ethnicities were: Litvin - Slavic speaking people living in the north of kingdom Rusyn - Slavic speaking people living in the south of kingdom Samogitians - Baltic speaking people • Habsburg Monarchy calls it's citizens from the eastern parts of kingdom Ruthenen. • During the establishment of modern nations, people of Ruthenian origins felt the need to unite, even if they were living under different empires and states, where they were called by different names. In late XIX century Ivan Franko, famous writer and political activist described himself as Rusyn and wrote "Ми маємо навчитися відчувати себе українцями - не галицькими, не буковинськими, не русинами, а українцями без офіціяльних кордонів". • After the collapse of Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empire, ex-Austro-Hungarian ruthenians proclaimed independence of West Ukrainian People's Republic, and ex-Russian Empire ruthenians proclaimed proclaimed independence of West Ukrainian People's Republic. On 22nd of january, 1919, the government of the West Ukrainian People's Republic officially united with the Ukrainian People's Republic. The young state of Ukraine eventually lost in their fight for independence and one more time was split between Soviet Union and interwar Poland. Poland signed a peace treaty with Ukrainian People's Republic, but immediately after the danger of Bolshevik Russia was gone - betrayed the Ukrainians who fought for Poland too. They became disillusioned and radicalized, and in 20s the "ukrainian" identity was closely related with political activism, often bordering with terrorism. Polish authorities renamed those people back to "rusyns", as a strategy to prevent the population from their struggles to reconnect with larger Ukraine. It didn't work, so 20 years later, after WW2 they carried out Operation Vistula - forced resettlement of all Ukrainian ethnic groups away from the eastern border. Conclusion: the word "rusyn" is integral part of Ukrainian identity, and was used for hundreds of years. Belarusians did not call themselves rusyns, as they have tradition of Litvin identity. If you are really do not want to be included in any modern nation - you're free to do so, but if you don't want to be confused with them, do it with original name. As you mentioned it yourself - you already call yourself Rusnak, that may be the good starting place.
Ruthenians are also THE NICEST of ALL the Slavs hands down. And because of their nice peaceful nature they were abused by EVERYONE around them, including people that just moved to current day Ukraine like Armenian and Jews that weren't even Native to Europe.
From what I know all East Slavs where called called Rus (Slavic endonym) and Ruthenian (Latin exonym) at various points in history. Belarus literally means White Rus. Russia literally means Land of the Rus. Rusyn has the Rus in it. Ukrainians aren't the only Ruthenians and that term is very out of date anyways.
We don’t know why, but Greeks used the name “Russia” for the Rus. Perhaps it’s related to Greek pronunciation I think it is more correctly to use Rus’(soft s). The Petro II (Moskovian tsar) stolen this Greek word “Russia”, because it was famous brand in the Europe.
@@ffstubczsgjbcdefhbvxsgbbbvcdf well, the term "Rus' " was imposed by orcokatsapian Oleg who invaded ancient Ukrainian lands and called them "ruZZian"
I think Galeotto wrote about hungarian king Matthias Corvinus (2. half of the XV. century), that "he knew many slavic languages, learned czech to talk without interpreter with the Czechs, polish to talk with the Poles, the tot language to talk with the Slavonians* and RUSYNIAN to talk with the RUSYNS". It means, that then (XV cent.) Rusyinians were a rather important ethnic group in the Hungarian kingdom. (*in Hungarian "tót" as an ethnic/language group means Slovakian and also Slavonian...)
@@lemkowithhistory Yes, all highlandic people of Carpathian Moutians should respect themselves. I feel close to you, i have as you Vlach origins. I wish all the best for Rusyns preserving their cuture form hands of Kiev and also Warsaw.
Carpathian Ruthenians and Ukrainians from Galicia come from the White Croat tribe. In the article about Transcarpathia in the Polish Wikipedia it is written that in the 9th century the White Croats had a principality in Transcarpathia with its capital in Uzhhorod, which was under the influence of Kievan Rus. It is also written there that Hungarian rule was consolidated there only at the beginning of the 13th century, that attempts were made to settle this then wild and uninhabited province with settlers from Germany, but regardless of this, the colonization of Transcarpathia by settlers from Galicia continued. The Vlachs migration was of a mixed ethnic nature and since the Vlachs in Moravia retained their Vlach identity, and no one in the Prešov region and Lemko region considers themselves a Vlach, it means that the Vlachs did not stay there, but went further and reached Moravia, or possibly there stay a small admixture of them, which assimilated. In the times of Austria-Hungary, on Austrian ethnic maps, both Carpathian Ruthenians and Ukrainians from Galicia were marked as one nation the Ruthenen.
Those, who had done the ethnic map of the Austro-Hungarian empire was politically incorrect. While calling Ukrainians "the Ruthenians", these maps show that Ukrainians=Ruthenians lived (and live to this day) in the Trascarpathian region of Ukraine and in other parts of different countries, which is now called "Carpato-Ruthenians". But there is another way : we can assume that all Galicia and Bukovina regions are HOLLY-CARPATHORUTHENIAN LANDS! P. S. The term "Kievan Rus" was invented by Russian historians in XIX century, which wanted to show, that there was other periods in the history of Rus'
My grandfather immigrated to Canada in 1927 and my grandmother followed in 1928. On the immigration records he claimed he was Ruthenian and she said Ukrainian but of course the Country was then called Poland. That is the first time I even heard of someone being Ruthenian I thought they were both Ukrainian. I also thought it must of been political in his mind and he was making a point not to say Ukrainian. His family were Cossacks. So I am learning lots in the last year.
I live in slovakia but have rutheninan mother and grandmother but in real life I dont speak ruthenian language its shame . I think Ruthenians has own state that ended about 700 years ago and now we live in different countries without identity...
Polish King was ruthenian (Jagiełło) :) Ruthenia was a region in old Polish Kingdom. Colors of area was symbol of geographical direction. The word Ukraine in the old Polish language meant - decline, end of the area. These were the areas bordering with Zaporozhye, Podolia, and Volhynia. West of Podolia there was Red Ruthenia. (Cherven Castles) The oldest Polish lands. Cossacks lived in Zaporozhye. They engaged in plundering. They attacked Ukraine and the Ottoman Empire. Sometimes they ventured further west into Poland's Podolia to rob. But there was a great fortress, Kamianets-Podilskyi. Latin civilization was already beginning there. Cheers!
Another great video. Self-naming is an important element of national identity. To deny this is one of the means of assimilation. Every nation should have the right to decide its own name.
The biggest realization of my life was realizing that I've lived my entire life assimilated to the degree where I know nothing about my ancestry, my language, culture, etc. I used to wonder why my family members are dispersed all over Ukraine: some in the West, some in the East, some in the South, some in the central part... Well, it's easier to assimilate people like that... Honestly, very sad...
@LWH / ЛЗI please be aware that there are also people of Rusyn origins that identify themselves as Ukrainians or at leat have as their mother or secondary language the standard Ukrainian and still accept and even support the Rusyn national movement. Like me, for example
I like that you included the Ukrainian and Rusyn word for "Rusyn". Branching off of that though, it is evident that the term "Rusyn" is more similar to the Ukrainian term "Rusini" than the Rusyn term "Rusnak". Therefore, shouldn't we as a people call ourselves "Rusnak" instead? After all, it is the correct word in the Rusyn language.
Honestly I'm not sure which way I feel about that. I don't think it'd do us any harm that's for sure. Would definitely be harder for Ukrainians to use the - Ruthenian - argument, and using Rusnak is more historically accurate anyways.
I saw Old Ruthenians nearly lifelike in a museum in Belarus near the Polish border where there is a zoo with lynx and bison. They were hunting with crossbows and had lavish costumes probably nobility. They wore mustaches and no beards and wore feathers in their hats.
A great video and an interesting topic. What I so far knew that in Austria-Hungary they were called Ruthenians (Ruthenisch, rutén) officially, even in Bukovina and Galicia based on the 1910 census. Maybe because the Ukrainian nation was formed at the end of WW1, and the Rusyns much much earlier. Just a little additives, I didnt find Rusyn nationality or mother language even in the 2011 Romanian census, they just mark them as Ukrainians, but most of them live in the historical Máramaros annexed by Romania, which is a Rusyn land.
Thanks for watching as always :) I believe in Romania they mark themselves as Hutsuls too, about 5k of them if I rememberly correctly. I do wish they said Rusyn but of course with our people regional identities are strong.
1. According to the 2002 Romanian census, 262 people identified themselves as "Ruthenian". At the same time, 3,890 Romanian citizens considered themselves Hutsuls, considered a subgroup of the Ruthenians. It is difficult to calculate the actual number of Ruthenians, as many of them considered themselves Ukrainians. 2. Maramureș is and was majority-Romanian; that is why it freely united with the rest of Romanians from the other Romanian Principalities / Lands (Moldova, Wallachia, Transylvania, Banat). The Romanian character of Maramuresh was fully described in the documents of the Hungarian kings that subdued it. From Maramures started the formation of Moldova, under Romanian voivodes Dragos and Bogdan. The colonization of Rusyns in Maramureș is late and well known - here's a quote from the Cultural Union of Rusyns in Romania website: "the knez of Podolia, Fedor Koriatovici (?-1414), colonizes about 40,000 Ruthenians coming from Galicia. In the following century, they successively enter Maramureş, settling in several villages, forming Ruthenian parishes assigned to the Mukacevo Diocese".
I'm Ukrainian, and agree with you. Seeing the aggressive screenshots in the beginning of the video was quite bloodboiling, putting a shame on Ukraine. Just know that a lot of us aren't like this. Still, the word Rusyn is historically an integral part of Ukrainian identity. There are a lot of history related reasons for that, including documents, and statements by other governments. For example, Poland called Ukrainians Rusyns for a while
Ivan Franko as all of the Gallician Ukrainians once considered themselves as Rusyns, back in the late XIX century, the only reason why people started to call themselves Ukrainians was to unify with another part of the nation under Russian Empire occupation, to built a new state under the common name as this people have always been separated under different regimes and empires. Mono-national countries, especially in eastern Europe have established just about a hundred years ago, which is a pretty small amount of time in terms of history. Zakarpattia has been not attached historically and geographically to other parts of modern Ukraine, that ideas about the nation that they have developed were slightly different than in others parts of the future state. And then instead of uniting again through the dialog and by the decision of the people, the soviet aggression took place, and all parts of Ukraine were united, which is good, but in a way of totalitarianism with no place for talk or agreement. I believe a lot of Rusyns gave their lives to become free from Austro-Wengerian occupation and wishes to be occupied by other countries, to unify with other parts of Ukraine, as a country of the closest families of ex Slavic tribes, but because of years of the even darker era their grandsons have forgotten their roots and now want to be separated, because of the feeling that it's not them making the decision. In a time when countries have established, what do u want now? To take some Ukrainian, Polish, Hungarian and Slovak lands and make a little country of 500k inhabitants? That is logically and economically impossible. Why does it hurt to Ukrainians? Because every Ukrainian region consists of different groups with a little different language, and if now Boykos, Wolynians, Bukowynians and so on will decide to call themselves that way denying of being Ukrainians, there would not be a such a country, that millions of people have died in a dream to once have. Because Rusyns have been forbidden to be as one with other Ukraine, only because of plans for their lands of other stronger kingdoms, countries, and empires, and now u only show that silly propaganda and years of de-Ukrainization works. Because your ancestors were killed by governments and u now believe to their killers. Because no wonder u feel different from all other nations, as u lived on lands of actual Ukraine, where the majority of inhabitants were Ukrainians, but these lands have never belonged to Ukrainian Republics or soviet Ukraine and forever taken by other nations. Because you have been lied to for too many years and just history has turned that way. Lemkos have been kicked from Poland or actually ethnical Ukrainian lands that belonged to them because they were Ukrainians, Ukraine really value them and their culture, and culture of Rusyns. Everything u have heard bad from Ukrainians was based on that you don't try to talk, to let them understand and to understand yourself but you through the easiest way of total denial and separatism and because we now have the war, and everyday men are killed cause of being Ukrainians, and u giving it up without a gun. If u haven't been born to Ukraine it's even harder for you to understand. If you want to find proof that Rusyns are not part of Ukrainian people, go ahead you can easily find it, as well as proof that Ukrainians are actually Russian or just their smaller brothers, that Ukraine has never existed and there no such people. History is written by the propaganda of winners. The only thing that history learns here, that we have to be together, we have always lost when we were not together, especially on the different sides of the conflict. Ukraine has suffered enough, Ukrainian Imperialism? You must be kidding me, instead of spreading Rusyn culture or language, u only spread hatred. If Ukrainians and some parts of Belarus were considered also as Rusyns, who are u if not Ukrainians, Belorussians? If some of the Rusyns are Belorussians, and Galician Rusyns are Ukrainians, then why are u considered as a whole different nation? Why u talk about Lemkos, if they have always considered themselves Ukrainians, I mean they always have been a part of Galician Rusyns, and a hundred years ago our language was quite a similar. Than maybe Ukrainian imperialists made Galicians also consider themselves as Ukrainians by force and propaganda? It's not, everything Ukrainian was forbidden, which have not changed how people thought of themselves. Have you read Rusalka Dnistrova? You say a lot of countries consist of a couple of nations, BUT as u say, Carpato-Rusyn lands weren't attached to rest of the country before the fall of the Daniel Rus State, one Viking cries somewhere because Imperialist Britain doesn't consider Brits that lived in his kingdom as a different nation. Occupation by different kingdom you use as an argument, though all of thee Ukraine was separated into 10 parts in late middle-age, and every and each ethnic group of Ukrainians can say that too.
@@lemkowithhistory I only told some historical facts and background, I have a right for my opinion. AAAAnd its. not up. to you how others consider themselves. As a Galician Rusyn, I live in a place where a lot of Lemkos live, true patriots ok Ukraine, and I know many many Rusyns from Zakarpatia who love Ukraine and fought for it on Maidan or Donbas, and u don't have a right to decide for them too. As a Ukrainian, I can't say we are all Teletubies from planet Gala-gala. And you can't deny linguistic and DNA roots of Rusyns, u can't just say to that that you are an African tribe because you feel like it, or because of your anti-ukraine views. Rusyns are Ukrainians or Ukrainian ancestry, denying it you are just falsing the reality, but I didn't say that they are JUST Ukrainians but are a smaller or bigger part of it nation, though individuals who have never been to Ukraine sure can don't think so, it only proves that ve have got difficult history.
@Павло Гаврон There will be no secession talk of any issue whether is be Transnistria, Kosovo, etc. on this channel. You can comment your heart out on any other issue, even about your views on Rusyns and Ukrainians. But if you comment again on secession of any area the comment will be deleted.
@@lemkowithhistory comment of Павло Гаврон is stupid and provocative, I think he is a bot. But I have question: not clear from your comment- - do you recognize Kosovo nation or deny it? What do you think that USA, Poland, Canada recognized Kosovo?
@@lemkowithhistory as i wrote above: lease be aware that there are also people of Rusyn origins that identify themselves as Ukrainians or at leat have as their mother or secondary language the standard Ukrainian and still accept and even support the Rusyn national movement. Like me, for example.And it is me to decide how do I consider myself to be.
Ruthenian is Latin and English name for Rusyn. So no Ruthenian is in fact from Rus' = Eastern Slavic. And in English for saying "from Rus'" is OLD Ruthenian. Modern Ruthenian is Rusyn. There are synonyms.
Russians use the word "Русь" as an old Russian state. By this logic, the habitants of ruthenia are Russians. But honestly even tho I'm also an East Slav (Belarusian) I don't know that much about East Slavic history, especially because of the conflicting revisionism and historiography from Ukrainians and Russians, so I'm very confused...
The name “ Russia “ appeared long after the Kievan Rus’ collapsed During last census of Austro-Hungary ( at the beginning of 20th century) Ukrainians were referred as Ruthenians Therefore, if I follow your logic that Ruthenians are Russians, then I might as well refer to Russians as being Ukrainians. Obviously, that’s absurd
funny and sad that ukrainian is probably historically the youngest slavic identity rusyns are much older yet they are supressed now by this artificially created identity....
Rusyns are much younger than Ukrainians, because modern Carpato Rusyns are not Ruthenians. During the Rus and GDL times Rysyns or Ruthenians were called ancestors of Belarusians and Ukrainians (and also Russians to a certain extent). Modern Carpatho Ruthenians are not descendants of Ruthenians, but a distinct ethnic group of Ukrainians with a unique culture. There are Poleshuks in Belarus and Kashubs in Poland, for example, but these are ethnic groups with a special culture and dialect but they do not think about separatism. The same for the Rusyns, and in fact, most Rusyns in Ukraine and many Rusyns in other countries prefer to identify themselves with the nation where they live.
I am reading these comments and remember the stories ( clearly urban legends) about this big large Land of our Brothers on the North. For us Serbs you were all Russians and we believed in those stories that were told to us by our grandparents, you can’t imagine how great you all were in those stories and we had this big love for you till this day . I am disappointed that you are just like us in the South, you can’t stand each other. Does anyone love Russia up there ?
"Ruthenian" was the Latin name for Slavic people, which lived in the Ruthenia area.And this area was named after celtic tribes lived there before Slavonians.One of celtic tribe had name Ruteni
On the 1926 Canadian Census sheets for my Ruthenian family members it shows them as having Austrian citizenship, born in Ukraine but they specifically specify Ruthenian as the race or tribal origin. The mother tongue was listed as Ruthenian as well. They're from Eastern Galicia, right on the border of Podalia. If he was Ukrainian surely he would have just listed Ukrainian ethnicity and mother tongue after claiming it's his country of birth. This relative would have come over in 1911 after the first attacks of the ultra nationalist racists against Poles and other non ethnic Ukrainians. My great uncle helped to hide one of the Polish priests of Tarnopol. I'm proud to consider myself as having a strong possibility of true Kievan Rus blood. Thank you for this video.
You are right. The only people who can decide who Rusyns are are the Rusyns themselves. Many Rusyns identify as Ukrainian. I am a Rusyns who identifies as Ukrainian. Some Rusyns do not. I am happy to identify with my Rysyn - Ukrainian brothers and sisters. Those of you who do not should just go away to Hungary or Poland or Slovakia or wherever you think you will be treated better (good luck!) and become a headache for someone else.
It's good that this vid was 2nd in the list on YT when searching for "Ruthenian history". Really a good touchstone for people who don't understand how modern an idea "nationhood" really is when compared to that of ethnic groups closer to what us Brits would think of as independent counties et cetera. When people ask me my ethnicity and I reply I'm a Kentish raised Cockney w/ a Bodminian surname, the amount of people who don't realise this doesn't mean "English" is rather annoying. I don't bother talking abou my mother's side 'cause that's even more confusing for the poor brainlets.
Superb! It is a very good video on the term as it's quite vague and in the past, it had taken me some time on this matter. Further Conclusions made by myself: (You got no problems on your video don't worry😁) 1. Muscovy was never part of Kyivan Rus as it was established during the Golden Horde Era. However, rulers of the Russian Empire usually used the title "Emperor of All Russia" (which may have included the PLC Ruthenian territories they hadn't annexed until 1772 to 1795). That is an act of imperialism as Russia didn't originate from Kievan Rus' and they just conquered it. Hence, it was clear that Russia couldn't inherit the Ruthenian term. 2. During foreign subjugation, modern-day Ukraine was generally divided in the past as New Russia (coastal and eastern), Little Russia (central), and Red Ruthenia (including Volhynia, Galicia, Podolia). Note that Red Ruthenia is used to refer to Ukraine. 3. For Belarus, it's a complicated one. Recently the government of Belarus claimed that the country in fact shared the same history with the Lithuanians, as they were both parts of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. However, this was disputed as the duchy was more of a union between Balts and Slavs, with the Slavs having an advantage in modern-day Belarus. Funny enough, Belarus the name actually derived from the term "White Ruthenia", and it only refers to the Eastern Part of the country, including cities like Mogilev, Polotsk, and Vitebsk (you can think it like interbellum BSSR without Kresy). The Western part of the country was named Black Ruthenia instead. 4. The Rusyn homeland of Transcarpathia was only briefly part of the Kyivan Rus, and it was under Hungarian rule instead. That is why Carpathian Ruthenia shouldn't be Ukrainian.
Thanks for commenting my guy! The only point I would add is that Transcarpathia was part of the Kievan Rus at one point, just muuuch less long than other parts and not when the Kievan Rus was at its greatest strength.
Hello from the Kyiv. Mother of all Rus' city. By the way, my nickname is translated as ancient Ruthenian. Ruthenians are the ancestors of Ukrainians Belarusians (but not Western, Western Belarusians are Lithuanians) and Carpatorusins. all these three peoples were called Ruthenians before the 13-17th century. that is, in fact, residents of northern and western Ukraine, as well as southern and eastern Belarus, as well as Smolensk, Bryansk and Kursk and the surrounding territory. in short, the Ruthenians were people who lived on the territory of Rus', which was captured by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Who were the ancestors of modern Ukrainians, Belarusians and Carpatorusins, Ruthenians spoke Russian (not to be confused with Russian) from which the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Carpathian languages came from, because of this, these languages are very similar
Древній Русин Did you use a translator for your reply? As I read, it is in English. I ask because one part does not make sense: " Who were the ancestors... spoke Russian (not to be confused with Russian)..." Did you mean: "... spoke Rusyn(not to be confused with Russian)..." ? The inability of internet translators(especially the Facebook translator, but also sometimes Google Translate) to differentiate between the 2 words "Rusyn" & "Russian" as they translate into English drives me crazy. Any discussion that uses both words becomes unintelligible.
Ethnic group for Ukrainians like Poleshuks in Belarus or Kashubians in Poland. Also, nobody denies your unique culture, but saying that you are real descendants of Ruthenians instead of Ukrainians and Belarusians, it is simply ridiculous, and simultaneously sad.
I am a Romanian, and I actually am the one who makes the demographic maps of Romania for Wikipedia. Obviously i made the ones for the Ukrainians, our third biggest minority, as well. Although I am not all that experienced into Ukrainian history, I observed that there is no recognised "Ruthenian/Rusyn" identity in Romania (like there is in Hungary, for example, which is ironic, seeing that the Rusyn population in theory should be bigger inside modern day Romania). As a result, the 2 or 3 communes (which is a Romanian division unit that is made out of multiple small villages) from Southern Maramures which do have high concentrations of Rusyns (or of what i presume are Rusyns) are considered to be Ukrainian. I just thought that it's interesting, seeing that Romania has historical and ethni-linguistic claims on all of Maramuresh, maybe even all of Transcarpathia.
There's most definitely a recognized Rusyn identity come from the fact that there is even a Rusyn political party from Maramuresh + they have a member in the chamber of deputies. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Union_of_Ruthenians_of_Romania. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about. But even with all of this we are still put down as Ukrainians on Wikipedia...(sigh)...
@@lemkowithhistory I legit never heard of it till now, as the Ruthenians are not one of the 20 recognised ethnic minorities in Romania (the ones used in statistics, and the ones formally accepted by our institutions) so this Ruthenian party might be more of an image one. Anyway, my point was to show that here in Romania, one of the countries that constitute the Rusyn homeland, we also call them "Ruthenians", I am not saying it as some pejorative offence tho. I genuinely got more curious in Rusyns ever since I discovered them. Also, when it comes of the actual Rusyns, I presume that the communes from the Ukrainian-Romanian line that splits the Maramures such as Ruscova, Bistra, Bocicoiu Mare, and others more, might actually be part of the remaining hard Rusyn homeland, while the state denies that, and instead classes them all as Ukrainians, past the 1930 census there actually is no census to my knowledge that uses the "Ruthenian", and even that one was using it to refer to Ukrainians only.
@@vladmihailghinea4626 My apologies if I came off as rude, meant no offense. These Rusyns in Maramures are part of the "Carpathian-Rus" homeland as you say, much different from the Ukrainians in Bukovina or elsewhere. I wonder why Romania denies it. We have little to offer in terms of benefits I suppose from recognition, and with Ukraine next door it would be tricky. Post 1930 census would make sense, as Ukrainianization and a cultural push were happening at this time. In regards to having the Ruthenian party being an "image one" as you say, I have a little more info on it. Rusyns in Maramuresh are far more isolated then that of ones in Ukraine or Slovakia. The just total area of Rusyns in Slovakia is 2x3 larger than that of Romania, along with the climate and mountains being much lower and habitable. This has led to a great deal more communication and consolidation. Rusyn theaters (Alexander Dukhnovych theater in Presov), organizations, buisnesses, etc. in Slovakia. Many Rusyns in Ukraine, Slovakia, and America see Romanian-Rusyns as something of a black hole. Hard to gather everyone together, and usually not very willing to interact with other Rusyn groups. Even those just across the border in South-Eastern Zakarpattia interact very little with them. And they're right on the border a few miles from each other! So in general this is the reasoning. However after talking with some from Romania and are part of the cultural acitivies, I can assure the movement is kept alive. Just not on the same organizational level.
@@lemkowithhistory As I said, Maramureș (written in Romanian) is one of the core Romanian regions, and its northern half is still populated by a large Romanian plurality. It (along with the whole of Zakarpattia/Transcarpathia) were part of Romania in 1600, in the Transylvanian Principates, were claimed by Romania after WWI, etc, anyway, you get it: kind of a big deal, tho obviously not as big as Bessarabia for example. Point is, I imagine that _maybe_ some politicans like to blank certain more nuanced ethnicities from existence for the sake of the historical argument, to make the irredentist claims on northern Maramureș even stronger than they are. Just a theory, although modern politicians here in Romania barely give a fuck about Moldova (tho I imagine that the post-1989 ones would be way more nationalist. I saw this with other smaller people groups as well: the Crimean Tatars in Dobruja are called "Tatars" only, there are no Szekels, only Hungarians, etc. I imagine at the end of the day it might just be semantics, yknow? Generally ethnic minorities here in Romania are extremely muted and nobody really gives them attention. Except for the Magyars, which are perceived as the enemy of the government, and the Germans, who are loyalists to the government, maybe the gypsies are the only one who get attention. Ukrainians, and by extensions Rusyns, are spared and let alone in their own silence. So I don't imagine the Romanian Rusyns will be wiped off the map any time soon. To be frank, a video about the attitude of every country towards the Rusyns would be epic. Also np dude, lmao, you were not rude.
@@lemkowithhistory I saw Ukrainian comments on youtube blaming interwar Romania for "artificially splitting" the Ukrainians in two groups: Ruthenians and Ukrainians. Probably now Romania has a policy inherited from the USSR times and/or from present-day political maps: if Zakarpattia is Ukraine, then those people are Ukrainians (period). For sure, identifying as Rusyn is not forbidden. As you remarked, there is the Cultural Union of Rusyns in Romania; there is the Parliamentary representation and there are the Census results (according to the 2002 census, 262 people identified themselves as "Ruthenian". At the same time, 3,890 Romanian citizens considered themselves Hutsuls, considered a subgroup of the Ruthenians. It is difficult to calculate the actual number of Ruthenians, as many of them considered themselves Ukrainians. About artificially splitting - the funny thing is Ukraine now is splitting my ethnicity in two: Moldavian / Romanian. Well, Moldavian is not a separate ethnicity. As a Moldovan with good history background, I can tell our ethnic identity was always "Romanian", while "Moldovan" was only a regional identity - that is up to Stalin, which claimed Moldovan is a different ethnicity so he can "free" (occupy) Bessarabia, future Moldovan SSR. But basically, Romanians established a medieval state named Moldova (toponim) in the 14th century, then they used both two terms Moldovan / Romanian (or Wallachian, in foreign languages) for themselves, as clearly seen in our medieval Moldovan books. We have one language - the same used by the rest of Romanians but still Ukraine prints two sets of identical school manuals: a "Romanian" one / and a "Moldovan" one. More, some people asking to be identified as "Romanian" in southern Ukraine (historic Bessarabia) are pressed to keep only a Moldovan identity (for example - they are fired; they are threatened etc).
I see there is place "Erdohorvati" in Hungaria... Interesting is that word for "fire" "vatra" is used only by Croats (Hrvati) and Srbs and by Lemko people in Carpathian mountains. What is relation between Lemko and Boiki people and between Polish Lendziani ... ? Are Boiki also using word "vatra" ?... my conclusion was that this word "vatra" has cognates only in ancient Avestan word "atar"... and "vatra" is probably derivation from: Slavic prothesis "v"+ at(a)r +a ... All other Slavic people are using ogień, ogon, ogenj, oganj... in Latin: ignis, Vedic: Agni, neoindoaryan: aag, aga ... German: Feuer, Engl: fire, other north- Germanic: brand ... Romance languages: foc (Romanian, Catalan), fuego (espanol), etc.
Vatra is probably a Dacian/Thracian and/or maybe Illyrian-origin word, since both in Romanian and Albanian vatră / vatër means fire-place, the hearth of the house; possibly cognate within the Indo-European family with ”hearth” itself (Romanian vatră = haard in Dutch, for example). Why is it met at peoples heavily influenced by Vlachs? No surprise!
Imma necro-answer this but Erdőhorváti does not mean what you thought. The original name of the village in the middle ages was Horváti, after the noble family who owned the land. Horvát - Croat Horváti - from/of a Croat Erdő - forest Cheers!
Згідно з Толочко, Рибаковим та низкою інших істориків, Русь у вузьеому сенсі була на теритррії сучасного Київа, Чернігова та Переяслава, а отже на території сучасної України, літописці з інших земель(принаймні до монгольського нашестя) себе Руссю не називали, аргумент з Білоруссю не канає
The Treaty of Hadiach of 1658 can be said to mark the traditional eastern border of "genuine" (historical) Ukraine. The Crimean Peninsula is not included, because it belonged to the Crimean Khanate at the time. In the diagram on this video, Ukraine is referred to by its older name, Ruthenia. Thus, if "worse comes to worse," Russia might demand return of the southernmost and easternmost portions of modern Ukraine. On the other hand, any Russian demand for traditional Ukrainian land (included in the Treaty of Hadiach) could bring war.
mistere early, I think you meant to say "if worse comes to WORST", meaning "if what is now worse(badder) becomes the worst"! And now (March 18, 2022)at least as far as Ukraine is concerned, the worst(an invasion and war by Putin) has happened.
Belarus and Ukraine should merge together as a common entity called Ruthenian, claiming both languages to be Ruthenian and dialects of it seperate from Rusyn and Russian
HORVATIAN is their original identity from pre-rus times. The craddle of the slavic languages is western ukraine, southeastern poland and eastern slovakia aka the old homeland Horvatiya. Read "Velikaya Horvatiya" from Mayorov.
Roxoalani > Ruslini > Rusini Roxo = White. White Alans Alans, Alania = ancient greek name Sarmati > Charvati (Xarvati) White Croats Sarmatia = ancient rome name 😉
ukrainians are just russians though just like belorussians, the cantonese ppl are just as Han chinese as mandarin the language difference doesnt matter
Spot on! From where I am from Slovakia has accepted us, rusyns, and for that reason we call ourselves slovaks unless we’re talking about the details. Ukrainians always felt the need to call us ukranian. They even came to our parts of our land (slovakia) and forced our schools to teach ukrainian as main language. My parents walked extra kilometers to different schools cos of that. My dad also burnt his ukrainian passport that was forced onto him despite living in slovakia. He went to the police station after and told them he lost it and that he had a slovak one. Cheers!
Ukrainian authorities today love to knock down soviet monuments; but when it comes to language and identity? According to kyiv the old Ukrainian SSR had a 100% correct policy and they still enact it to this day. My Mother is Podolian, way more 'Ukrainian' than a Rusyn person from even within eastern Carpathia, and even she is still salty how lockstep-Lviv the current state prescribed mova is. A nothingburger next to what ails that country now, but just ironic.
Ukraine! recognize Rusyn people and their language as a indigenous people to Rusyn Lands. What a double standard while recognizing Crimean Tatars but not Rusyns. Their self-governing right has to be recognized and protected as well.
Thank You! Ruthenians from Slovakia are not Ukrainians! They are Slavonic folk who had been using Byzantinium faith while living on territory of Kingdom of Hungary and Poland´s Galicia and Lodomeria. Greetings from Bratislava/Preßburg
Carpathian Rusyns are a unique part of the Ukrainian people with their own distinctive traditions and dialects. Or you tell me they are not recognized as Ukrainians in Ukraine?
They are Ukrainians.
Bad proof, Tatars are another language family
Tatars AREN'T EVEN NATIVE EUROPEANS!
My family came from Austrian Galicia and they were called Ruthenians, but over time this term died, nowadays most of the descendants that came from the region are called only Ukrainians.
The same with mine.
Ukrainians deny rusyn being a sepatare ethicity they consider them a dialect of ukrainians coming into existence due to being separated historically by Hungary. Which is funny from the persprctive that if we apply this logic to ukrainians they are a dialect of russian...
@@gezalesko3813 How do Rusyns differ from Volynians, Poleshuks, or Taurians? Should we give all ethnic groups their own nation and state?
@@husbananathe rise of nationalism. Destroyer of empires.
Yes. My maternal grandmother's family came from there. They were from Ukraine but called themselves Russian
The argument is senseless and boils down to a fact that "Rusyn/Ruthenian" is a parent superset from which Ukrainians, Belarusians and modern day Rusyns descended.
I never saw a Ukrainian who's claiming the exclusive right to own the "rusyn/ruthenian" identity. Nobody ever denied that Belarusians descended from same Ruthenian origins as modern day Ukrainians.
Still Belarusians themselves used "Litvin" identity, as they shared noble class from Grand Duchy of Lithuania, while Ukrainians kept rusyn identity and struggled for unification of rusyn people in their own state, which eventually got a name Ukraine.
A lot of Ukrainian writers/thinkers/historians/statesmen used the word interchangeably.
Ruthenian identity is bigger than present day nations. It's not exclusive for any present day nations, it's our shared ancestry.
They do when claiming that Rusyns are Ukrainians.
@lemkowithhistory the misunderstanding comes from mixing apples and oranges, medieval ethnicities, and modern day nations.
Let's look at the history:
• In Kievan Rus people call themselves "Rus people".
• Muscovites hijack the word and create word "Russia" and "russian/русский", still they can't force russian identity on everyone and they call non muscovite Rus people "малоросы"
• Ruthenian people in Kingdom of Poland and later Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth call themselves "rusin/русин", not only in the Carphatian region, but in the Dnieper Ukraine as well. Here's the quote from Cherkasy starosta (mayor) from 1620:
"...то страхи на ляхи, а я єм русин. Видает король его мл., ж-ем русин, а позви мини по полску шлеть."
• Statutes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1588 states that government official statuses can be possessed by «давніх продков того Велікого князства Літовского урожоний літвін, русін і жамойт»
These medieval ethnicities were:
Litvin - Slavic speaking people living in the north of kingdom
Rusyn - Slavic speaking people living in the south of kingdom
Samogitians - Baltic speaking people
• Habsburg Monarchy calls it's citizens from the eastern parts of kingdom Ruthenen.
• During the establishment of modern nations, people of Ruthenian origins felt the need to unite, even if they were living under different empires and states, where they were called by different names.
In late XIX century Ivan Franko, famous writer and political activist described himself as Rusyn and wrote "Ми маємо навчитися відчувати себе українцями - не галицькими, не буковинськими, не русинами, а українцями без офіціяльних кордонів".
• After the collapse of Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empire, ex-Austro-Hungarian ruthenians proclaimed independence of West Ukrainian People's Republic, and ex-Russian Empire ruthenians proclaimed proclaimed independence of West Ukrainian People's Republic.
On 22nd of january, 1919, the government of the West Ukrainian People's Republic officially united with the Ukrainian People's Republic.
The young state of Ukraine eventually lost in their fight for independence and one more time was split between Soviet Union and interwar Poland.
Poland signed a peace treaty with Ukrainian People's Republic, but immediately after the danger of Bolshevik Russia was gone - betrayed the Ukrainians who fought for Poland too. They became disillusioned and radicalized, and in 20s the "ukrainian" identity was closely related with political activism, often bordering with terrorism.
Polish authorities renamed those people back to "rusyns", as a strategy to prevent the population from their struggles to reconnect with larger Ukraine. It didn't work, so 20 years later, after WW2 they carried out Operation Vistula - forced resettlement of all Ukrainian ethnic groups away from the eastern border.
Conclusion: the word "rusyn" is integral part of Ukrainian identity, and was used for hundreds of years. Belarusians did not call themselves rusyns, as they have tradition of Litvin identity.
If you are really do not want to be included in any modern nation - you're free to do so, but if you don't want to be confused with them, do it with original name.
As you mentioned it yourself - you already call yourself Rusnak, that may be the good starting place.
Ruthenians are also THE NICEST of ALL the Slavs hands down.
And because of their nice peaceful nature they were abused by EVERYONE around them, including people that just moved to current day Ukraine like Armenian and Jews that weren't even Native to Europe.
From what I know all East Slavs where called called Rus (Slavic endonym) and Ruthenian (Latin exonym) at various points in history.
Belarus literally means White Rus.
Russia literally means Land of the Rus.
Rusyn has the Rus in it.
Ukrainians aren't the only Ruthenians and that term is very out of date anyways.
We don’t know why, but Greeks used the name “Russia” for the Rus. Perhaps it’s related to Greek pronunciation
I think it is more correctly to use Rus’(soft s).
The Petro II (Moskovian tsar) stolen this Greek word “Russia”, because it was famous brand in the Europe.
@Ried Kreisler not exactly.
"Russia" stole name
"Belarus" wants to name like "Lithua" or "Kryvia"
Carpathian Ruthenians are migrants.
@@ffstubczsgjbcdefhbvxsgbbbvcdf well, the term "Rus' " was imposed by orcokatsapian Oleg who invaded ancient Ukrainian lands and called them "ruZZian"
I think Galeotto wrote about hungarian king Matthias Corvinus (2. half of the XV. century), that "he knew many slavic languages, learned czech to talk without interpreter with the Czechs, polish to talk with the Poles, the tot language to talk with the Slavonians* and RUSYNIAN to talk with the RUSYNS".
It means, that then (XV cent.) Rusyinians were a rather important ethnic group in the Hungarian kingdom.
(*in Hungarian "tót" as an ethnic/language group means Slovakian and also Slavonian...)
We are with you Rusyn brothers!
100%! I hope for the best future for both are peoples.
@@lemkowithhistory Yes, all highlandic people of Carpathian Moutians should respect themselves. I feel close to you, i have as you Vlach origins. I wish all the best for Rusyns preserving their cuture form hands of Kiev and also Warsaw.
Not if Poland help it. They have long memories.
Thx bro
Who is we? What is your ethnicity?
Carpathian Ruthenians and Ukrainians from Galicia come from the White Croat tribe. In the article about Transcarpathia in the Polish Wikipedia it is written that in the 9th century the White Croats had a principality in Transcarpathia with its capital in Uzhhorod, which was under the influence of Kievan Rus. It is also written there that Hungarian rule was consolidated there only at the beginning of the 13th century, that attempts were made to settle this then wild and uninhabited province with settlers from Germany, but regardless of this, the colonization of Transcarpathia by settlers from Galicia continued. The Vlachs migration was of a mixed ethnic nature and since the Vlachs in Moravia retained their Vlach identity, and no one in the Prešov region and Lemko region considers themselves a Vlach, it means that the Vlachs did not stay there, but went further and reached Moravia, or possibly there stay a small admixture of them, which assimilated. In the times of Austria-Hungary, on Austrian ethnic maps, both Carpathian Ruthenians and Ukrainians from Galicia were marked as one nation the Ruthenen.
Those, who had done the ethnic map of the Austro-Hungarian empire was politically incorrect. While calling Ukrainians "the Ruthenians", these maps show that Ukrainians=Ruthenians lived (and live to this day) in the Trascarpathian region of Ukraine and in other parts of different countries, which is now called "Carpato-Ruthenians". But there is another way : we can assume that all Galicia and Bukovina regions are HOLLY-CARPATHORUTHENIAN LANDS!
P. S. The term "Kievan Rus" was invented by Russian historians in XIX century, which wanted to show, that there was other periods in the history of Rus'
My grandfather immigrated to Canada in 1927 and my grandmother followed in 1928. On the immigration records he claimed he was Ruthenian and she said Ukrainian but of course the Country was then called Poland. That is the first time I even heard of someone being Ruthenian I thought they were both Ukrainian. I also thought it must of been political in his mind and he was making a point not to say Ukrainian. His family were Cossacks. So I am learning lots in the last year.
I live in slovakia but have rutheninan mother and grandmother but in real life I dont speak ruthenian language its shame . I think Ruthenians has own state that ended about 700 years ago and now we live in different countries without identity...
Polish King was ruthenian (Jagiełło) :) Ruthenia was a region in old Polish Kingdom. Colors of area was symbol of geographical direction. The word Ukraine in the old Polish language meant - decline, end of the area. These were the areas bordering with Zaporozhye, Podolia, and Volhynia. West of Podolia there was Red Ruthenia. (Cherven Castles) The oldest Polish lands. Cossacks lived in Zaporozhye. They engaged in plundering. They attacked Ukraine and the Ottoman Empire. Sometimes they ventured further west into Poland's Podolia to rob. But there was a great fortress, Kamianets-Podilskyi. Latin civilization was already beginning there. Cheers!
seeing one ruthenians hating others is sad
Another great video. Self-naming is an important element of national identity. To deny this is one of the means of assimilation. Every nation should have the right to decide its own name.
You comment is much appreciated, I 100% agree with you too.
The biggest realization of my life was realizing that I've lived my entire life assimilated to the degree where I know nothing about my ancestry, my language, culture, etc. I used to wonder why my family members are dispersed all over Ukraine: some in the West, some in the East, some in the South, some in the central part... Well, it's easier to assimilate people like that... Honestly, very sad...
This is interesting as always!! Can’t wait for the next video
Thanks :)
@LWH / ЛЗI please be aware that there are also people of Rusyn origins that identify themselves as Ukrainians or at leat have as their mother or secondary language the standard Ukrainian and still accept and even support the Rusyn national movement. Like me, for example
Depends where you are. Pannonians Rusyns/Presov Rusyns are much less likely to see themselves as Ukrainians when compared to Transcarpathians/Lemkos.
I never heard the term Ruthenian from my Ukrainian grandmother who immigrated from Galicia in 1910.
Was she from Eastern Galicia? She's wasn't Rusyn if she was.
I like that you included the Ukrainian and Rusyn word for "Rusyn". Branching off of that though, it is evident that the term "Rusyn" is more similar to the Ukrainian term "Rusini" than the Rusyn term "Rusnak". Therefore, shouldn't we as a people call ourselves "Rusnak" instead? After all, it is the correct word in the Rusyn language.
Honestly I'm not sure which way I feel about that. I don't think it'd do us any harm that's for sure. Would definitely be harder for Ukrainians to use the - Ruthenian - argument, and using Rusnak is more historically accurate anyways.
@@alekshukhevych2644 I saw that you deleted your other comment? It was the Austrian officials who prosecuted them if you still wanted to know.
In Slovak both (Rusyn and Rusnak) are used, none of them in dishonest sense.
In hungarian it is rusznyák or karpathian russian, or ruszin.. rutén is an artificial word later came to our language ..
I saw Old Ruthenians nearly lifelike in a museum in Belarus near the Polish border where there is a zoo with lynx and bison. They were hunting with crossbows and had lavish costumes probably nobility. They wore mustaches and no beards and wore feathers in their hats.
A great video and an interesting topic. What I so far knew that in Austria-Hungary they were called Ruthenians (Ruthenisch, rutén) officially, even in Bukovina and Galicia based on the 1910 census. Maybe because the Ukrainian nation was formed at the end of WW1, and the Rusyns much much earlier. Just a little additives, I didnt find Rusyn nationality or mother language even in the 2011 Romanian census, they just mark them as Ukrainians, but most of them live in the historical Máramaros annexed by Romania, which is a Rusyn land.
Thanks for watching as always :) I believe in Romania they mark themselves as Hutsuls too, about 5k of them if I rememberly correctly. I do wish they said Rusyn but of course with our people regional identities are strong.
Ruthenian is old Ukrainian and Belarusian.
1. According to the 2002 Romanian census, 262 people identified themselves as "Ruthenian". At the same time, 3,890 Romanian citizens considered themselves Hutsuls, considered a subgroup of the Ruthenians. It is difficult to calculate the actual number of Ruthenians, as many of them considered themselves Ukrainians.
2. Maramureș is and was majority-Romanian; that is why it freely united with the rest of Romanians from the other Romanian Principalities / Lands (Moldova, Wallachia, Transylvania, Banat). The Romanian character of Maramuresh was fully described in the documents of the Hungarian kings that subdued it. From Maramures started the formation of Moldova, under Romanian voivodes Dragos and Bogdan. The colonization of Rusyns in Maramureș is late and well known - here's a quote from the Cultural Union of Rusyns in Romania website: "the knez of Podolia, Fedor Koriatovici (?-1414), colonizes about 40,000 Ruthenians coming from Galicia. In the following century, they successively enter Maramureş, settling in several villages, forming Ruthenian parishes assigned to the Mukacevo Diocese".
@@ionbrad6753do you know when did rusyns emigrate to Maramureș?
I'm Ukrainian, and agree with you. Seeing the aggressive screenshots in the beginning of the video was quite bloodboiling, putting a shame on Ukraine. Just know that a lot of us aren't like this. Still, the word Rusyn is historically an integral part of Ukrainian identity. There are a lot of history related reasons for that, including documents, and statements by other governments. For example, Poland called Ukrainians Rusyns for a while
Ivan Franko as all of the Gallician Ukrainians once considered themselves as Rusyns, back in the late XIX century, the only reason why people started to call themselves Ukrainians was to unify with another part of the nation under Russian Empire occupation, to built a new state under the common name as this people have always been separated under different regimes and empires. Mono-national countries, especially in eastern Europe have established just about a hundred years ago, which is a pretty small amount of time in terms of history. Zakarpattia has been not attached historically and geographically to other parts of modern Ukraine, that ideas about the nation that they have developed were slightly different than in others parts of the future state. And then instead of uniting again through the dialog and by the decision of the people, the soviet aggression took place, and all parts of Ukraine were united, which is good, but in a way of totalitarianism with no place for talk or agreement. I believe a lot of Rusyns gave their lives to become free from Austro-Wengerian occupation and wishes to be occupied by other countries, to unify with other parts of Ukraine, as a country of the closest families of ex Slavic tribes, but because of years of the even darker era their grandsons have forgotten their roots and now want to be separated, because of the feeling that it's not them making the decision. In a time when countries have established, what do u want now? To take some Ukrainian, Polish, Hungarian and Slovak lands and make a little country of 500k inhabitants? That is logically and economically impossible. Why does it hurt to Ukrainians? Because every Ukrainian region consists of different groups with a little different language, and if now Boykos, Wolynians, Bukowynians and so on will decide to call themselves that way denying of being Ukrainians, there would not be a such a country, that millions of people have died in a dream to once have. Because Rusyns have been forbidden to be as one with other Ukraine, only because of plans for their lands of other stronger kingdoms, countries, and empires, and now u only show that silly propaganda and years of de-Ukrainization works. Because your ancestors were killed by governments and u now believe to their killers. Because no wonder u feel different from all other nations, as u lived on lands of actual Ukraine, where the majority of inhabitants were Ukrainians, but these lands have never belonged to Ukrainian Republics or soviet Ukraine and forever taken by other nations. Because you have been lied to for too many years and just history has turned that way. Lemkos have been kicked from Poland or actually ethnical Ukrainian lands that belonged to them because they were Ukrainians, Ukraine really value them and their culture, and culture of Rusyns. Everything u have heard bad from Ukrainians was based on that you don't try to talk, to let them understand and to understand yourself but you through the easiest way of total denial and separatism and because we now have the war, and everyday men are killed cause of being Ukrainians, and u giving it up without a gun. If u haven't been born to Ukraine it's even harder for you to understand. If you want to find proof that Rusyns are not part of Ukrainian people, go ahead you can easily find it, as well as proof that Ukrainians are actually Russian or just their smaller brothers, that Ukraine has never existed and there no such people. History is written by the propaganda of winners. The only thing that history learns here, that we have to be together, we have always lost when we were not together, especially on the different sides of the conflict. Ukraine has suffered enough, Ukrainian Imperialism? You must be kidding me, instead of spreading Rusyn culture or language, u only spread hatred. If Ukrainians and some parts of Belarus were considered also as Rusyns, who are u if not Ukrainians, Belorussians? If some of the Rusyns are Belorussians, and Galician Rusyns are Ukrainians, then why are u considered as a whole different nation? Why u talk about Lemkos, if they have always considered themselves Ukrainians, I mean they always have been a part of Galician Rusyns, and a hundred years ago our language was quite a similar. Than maybe Ukrainian imperialists made Galicians also consider themselves as Ukrainians by force and propaganda? It's not, everything Ukrainian was forbidden, which have not changed how people thought of themselves. Have you read Rusalka Dnistrova? You say a lot of countries consist of a couple of nations, BUT as u say, Carpato-Rusyn lands weren't attached to rest of the country before the fall of the Daniel Rus State, one Viking cries somewhere because Imperialist Britain doesn't consider Brits that lived in his kingdom as a different nation. Occupation by different kingdom you use as an argument, though all of thee Ukraine was separated into 10 parts in late middle-age, and every and each ethnic group of Ukrainians can say that too.
It's not up to you to decide how we consider ourselves.
@@lemkowithhistory I only told some historical facts and background, I have a right for my opinion. AAAAnd its. not up. to you how others consider themselves. As a Galician Rusyn, I live in a place where a lot of Lemkos live, true patriots ok Ukraine, and I know many many Rusyns from Zakarpatia who love Ukraine and fought for it on Maidan or Donbas, and u don't have a right to decide for them too. As a Ukrainian, I can't say we are all Teletubies from planet Gala-gala. And you can't deny linguistic and DNA roots of Rusyns, u can't just say to that that you are an African tribe because you feel like it, or because of your anti-ukraine views. Rusyns are Ukrainians or Ukrainian ancestry, denying it you are just falsing the reality, but I didn't say that they are JUST Ukrainians but are a smaller or bigger part of it nation, though individuals who have never been to Ukraine sure can don't think so, it only proves that ve have got difficult history.
@Павло Гаврон There will be no secession talk of any issue whether is be Transnistria, Kosovo, etc. on this channel. You can comment your heart out on any other issue, even about your views on Rusyns and Ukrainians. But if you comment again on secession of any area the comment will be deleted.
@@lemkowithhistory comment of Павло Гаврон is stupid and provocative, I think he is a bot.
But I have question: not clear from your comment- - do you recognize Kosovo nation or deny it?
What do you think that USA, Poland, Canada recognized Kosovo?
@@lemkowithhistory as i wrote above: lease be aware that there are also people of Rusyn origins that identify themselves as Ukrainians or at leat have as their mother or secondary language the standard Ukrainian and still accept and even support the Rusyn national movement. Like me, for example.And it is me to decide how do I consider myself to be.
Ruthenian is Latin and English name for Rusyn. So no Ruthenian is in fact from Rus' = Eastern Slavic. And in English for saying "from Rus'" is OLD Ruthenian. Modern Ruthenian is Rusyn. There are synonyms.
Russians use the word "Русь" as an old Russian state. By this logic, the habitants of ruthenia are Russians. But honestly even tho I'm also an East Slav (Belarusian) I don't know that much about East Slavic history, especially because of the conflicting revisionism and historiography from Ukrainians and Russians, so I'm very confused...
The name “ Russia “ appeared long after the Kievan Rus’ collapsed
During last census of Austro-Hungary ( at the beginning of 20th century) Ukrainians were referred as Ruthenians
Therefore, if I follow your logic that Ruthenians are Russians, then I might as well refer to Russians as being Ukrainians. Obviously, that’s absurd
The first thing you need to know about is that no matter what everyone has got a friend in me
Wtf is this account lmao.
Very interesting video. Keep up with it. In Serbia we have ethnic minority ,,Rusini", not Ukrainians or Russians.
Thanks for watching! Those Rusini are actually the same group as us. They moved to Vojvodina in the 1700s interestingly enough.
In Croatia too! Close to the Serbian border by Vukovar. We have a national rusin day in Croatia.
they call their language "ruski jazik" though just the same as russians from russia
@@apollon6870 rusyn is called "ruski jazik" and russian is "rusijski jazik"
@@dani7el11 nope, there’s not such a thing as “rusijsky jazik”
funny and sad that ukrainian is probably historically the youngest slavic identity rusyns are much older yet they are supressed now by this artificially created identity....
Rusyns are much younger than Ukrainians, because modern Carpato Rusyns are not Ruthenians. During the Rus and GDL times Rysyns or Ruthenians were called ancestors of Belarusians and Ukrainians (and also Russians to a certain extent). Modern Carpatho Ruthenians are not descendants of Ruthenians, but a distinct ethnic group of Ukrainians with a unique culture. There are Poleshuks in Belarus and Kashubs in Poland, for example, but these are ethnic groups with a special culture and dialect but they do not think about separatism. The same for the Rusyns, and in fact, most Rusyns in Ukraine and many Rusyns in other countries prefer to identify themselves with the nation where they live.
"artificially created identity" 🤡🤡🤡
my great grandpa was living in poland in 1924 and was called Ruthenian or beliruski in a area thats called now a days Brest Voblasts
I am reading these comments and remember the stories ( clearly urban legends) about this big large Land of our Brothers on the North. For us Serbs you were all Russians and we believed in those stories that were told to us by our grandparents, you can’t imagine how great you all were in those stories and we had this big love for you till this day . I am disappointed that you are just like us in the South, you can’t stand each other. Does anyone love Russia up there ?
"Ruthenian" was the Latin name for Slavic people, which lived in the Ruthenia area.And this area was named after celtic tribes lived there before Slavonians.One of celtic tribe had name Ruteni
Pretty good summary :)
Really appreciated this video
Much appreciated man!
On the 1926 Canadian Census sheets for my Ruthenian family members it shows them as having Austrian citizenship, born in Ukraine but they specifically specify Ruthenian as the race or tribal origin. The mother tongue was listed as Ruthenian as well. They're from Eastern Galicia, right on the border of Podalia. If he was Ukrainian surely he would have just listed Ukrainian ethnicity and mother tongue after claiming it's his country of birth. This relative would have come over in 1911 after the first attacks of the ultra nationalist racists against Poles and other non ethnic Ukrainians. My great uncle helped to hide one of the Polish priests of Tarnopol. I'm proud to consider myself as having a strong possibility of true Kievan Rus blood. Thank you for this video.
You are right. The only people who can decide who Rusyns are are the Rusyns themselves. Many Rusyns identify as Ukrainian. I am a Rusyns who identifies as Ukrainian. Some Rusyns do not. I am happy to identify with my Rysyn - Ukrainian brothers and sisters. Those of you who do not should just go away to Hungary or Poland or Slovakia or wherever you think you will be treated better (good luck!) and become a headache for someone else.
Old Ruthenian derives from Old East Slav of which Lithuanian is a dialect.
Rusyn is not Ukrainian
Support to Rusyns from Serbia
I am rusnak (rusin) from Croatia 😊
It's good that this vid was 2nd in the list on YT when searching for "Ruthenian history". Really a good touchstone for people who don't understand how modern an idea "nationhood" really is when compared to that of ethnic groups closer to what us Brits would think of as independent counties et cetera. When people ask me my ethnicity and I reply I'm a Kentish raised Cockney w/ a Bodminian surname, the amount of people who don't realise this doesn't mean "English" is rather annoying. I don't bother talking abou my mother's side 'cause that's even more confusing for the poor brainlets.
The Fact is.
They're a younger Identity group, in comparison to the Rus'. (Regardless of other factors.)
Heck, they're: "Borderians"
Other factors, such as Genetics, Familial History.. (as, all people's have this.)
Something special with this video. Rusyn-chad af my brother
Superb! It is a very good video on the term as it's quite vague and in the past, it had taken me some time on this matter.
Further Conclusions made by myself:
(You got no problems on your video don't worry😁)
1. Muscovy was never part of Kyivan Rus as it was established during the Golden Horde Era. However, rulers of the Russian Empire usually used the title "Emperor of All Russia" (which may have included the PLC Ruthenian territories they hadn't annexed until 1772 to 1795). That is an act of imperialism as Russia didn't originate from Kievan Rus' and they just conquered it. Hence, it was clear that Russia couldn't inherit the Ruthenian term.
2. During foreign subjugation, modern-day Ukraine was generally divided in the past as New Russia (coastal and eastern), Little Russia (central), and Red Ruthenia (including Volhynia, Galicia, Podolia). Note that Red Ruthenia is used to refer to Ukraine.
3. For Belarus, it's a complicated one. Recently the government of Belarus claimed that the country in fact shared the same history with the Lithuanians, as they were both parts of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. However, this was disputed as the duchy was more of a union between Balts and Slavs, with the Slavs having an advantage in modern-day Belarus. Funny enough, Belarus the name actually derived from the term "White Ruthenia", and it only refers to the Eastern Part of the country, including cities like Mogilev, Polotsk, and Vitebsk (you can think it like interbellum BSSR without Kresy). The Western part of the country was named Black Ruthenia instead.
4. The Rusyn homeland of Transcarpathia was only briefly part of the Kyivan Rus, and it was under Hungarian rule instead. That is why Carpathian Ruthenia shouldn't be Ukrainian.
Thanks for commenting my guy! The only point I would add is that Transcarpathia was part of the Kievan Rus at one point, just muuuch less long than other parts and not when the Kievan Rus was at its greatest strength.
@@lemkowithhistory Oh I see, I also remember the Kingdom of Rus' (Principality of Halych-Volhynia) conquered it at some point in time~
Hello from the Kyiv. Mother of all Rus' city. By the way, my nickname is translated as ancient Ruthenian. Ruthenians are the ancestors of Ukrainians Belarusians (but not Western, Western Belarusians are Lithuanians) and Carpatorusins. all these three peoples were called Ruthenians before the 13-17th century. that is, in fact, residents of northern and western Ukraine, as well as southern and eastern Belarus, as well as Smolensk, Bryansk and Kursk and the surrounding territory. in short, the Ruthenians were people who lived on the territory of Rus', which was captured by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Who were the ancestors of modern Ukrainians, Belarusians and Carpatorusins, Ruthenians spoke Russian (not to be confused with Russian) from which the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Carpathian languages came from, because of this, these languages are very similar
Древній Русин Did you use a translator for your reply? As I read, it is in English.
I ask because one part does not make sense:
" Who were the ancestors... spoke Russian (not to be confused with Russian)..."
Did you mean:
"... spoke Rusyn(not to be confused with Russian)..." ?
The inability of internet translators(especially the Facebook translator, but also sometimes Google Translate) to differentiate between the 2 words "Rusyn" & "Russian" as they translate into English drives me crazy. Any discussion that uses both words becomes unintelligible.
Ethnic group for Ukrainians like Poleshuks in Belarus or Kashubians in Poland. Also, nobody denies your unique culture, but saying that you are real descendants of Ruthenians instead of Ukrainians and Belarusians, it is simply ridiculous, and simultaneously sad.
I am a Romanian, and I actually am the one who makes the demographic maps of Romania for Wikipedia. Obviously i made the ones for the Ukrainians, our third biggest minority, as well. Although I am not all that experienced into Ukrainian history, I observed that there is no recognised "Ruthenian/Rusyn" identity in Romania (like there is in Hungary, for example, which is ironic, seeing that the Rusyn population in theory should be bigger inside modern day Romania). As a result, the 2 or 3 communes (which is a Romanian division unit that is made out of multiple small villages) from Southern Maramures which do have high concentrations of Rusyns (or of what i presume are Rusyns) are considered to be Ukrainian.
I just thought that it's interesting, seeing that Romania has historical and ethni-linguistic claims on all of Maramuresh, maybe even all of Transcarpathia.
There's most definitely a recognized Rusyn identity come from the fact that there is even a Rusyn political party from Maramuresh + they have a member in the chamber of deputies. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Union_of_Ruthenians_of_Romania. So I'm not really sure what you're talking about. But even with all of this we are still put down as Ukrainians on Wikipedia...(sigh)...
@@lemkowithhistory I legit never heard of it till now, as the Ruthenians are not one of the 20 recognised ethnic minorities in Romania (the ones used in statistics, and the ones formally accepted by our institutions) so this Ruthenian party might be more of an image one.
Anyway, my point was to show that here in Romania, one of the countries that constitute the Rusyn homeland, we also call them "Ruthenians", I am not saying it as some pejorative offence tho. I genuinely got more curious in Rusyns ever since I discovered them.
Also, when it comes of the actual Rusyns, I presume that the communes from the Ukrainian-Romanian line that splits the Maramures such as Ruscova, Bistra, Bocicoiu Mare, and others more, might actually be part of the remaining hard Rusyn homeland, while the state denies that, and instead classes them all as Ukrainians, past the 1930 census there actually is no census to my knowledge that uses the "Ruthenian", and even that one was using it to refer to Ukrainians only.
@@vladmihailghinea4626 My apologies if I came off as rude, meant no offense. These Rusyns in Maramures are part of the "Carpathian-Rus" homeland as you say, much different from the Ukrainians in Bukovina or elsewhere. I wonder why Romania denies it. We have little to offer in terms of benefits I suppose from recognition, and with Ukraine next door it would be tricky. Post 1930 census would make sense, as Ukrainianization and a cultural push were happening at this time. In regards to having the Ruthenian party being an "image one" as you say, I have a little more info on it.
Rusyns in Maramuresh are far more isolated then that of ones in Ukraine or Slovakia. The just total area of Rusyns in Slovakia is 2x3 larger than that of Romania, along with the climate and mountains being much lower and habitable. This has led to a great deal more communication and consolidation. Rusyn theaters (Alexander Dukhnovych theater in Presov), organizations, buisnesses, etc. in Slovakia. Many Rusyns in Ukraine, Slovakia, and America see Romanian-Rusyns as something of a black hole. Hard to gather everyone together, and usually not very willing to interact with other Rusyn groups.
Even those just across the border in South-Eastern Zakarpattia interact very little with them. And they're right on the border a few miles from each other! So in general this is the reasoning. However after talking with some from Romania and are part of the cultural acitivies, I can assure the movement is kept alive. Just not on the same organizational level.
@@lemkowithhistory As I said, Maramureș (written in Romanian) is one of the core Romanian regions, and its northern half is still populated by a large Romanian plurality. It (along with the whole of Zakarpattia/Transcarpathia) were part of Romania in 1600, in the Transylvanian Principates, were claimed by Romania after WWI, etc, anyway, you get it: kind of a big deal, tho obviously not as big as Bessarabia for example. Point is, I imagine that _maybe_ some politicans like to blank certain more nuanced ethnicities from existence for the sake of the historical argument, to make the irredentist claims on northern Maramureș even stronger than they are. Just a theory, although modern politicians here in Romania barely give a fuck about Moldova (tho I imagine that the post-1989 ones would be way more nationalist. I saw this with other smaller people groups as well: the Crimean Tatars in Dobruja are called "Tatars" only, there are no Szekels, only Hungarians, etc. I imagine at the end of the day it might just be semantics, yknow? Generally ethnic minorities here in Romania are extremely muted and nobody really gives them attention. Except for the Magyars, which are perceived as the enemy of the government, and the Germans, who are loyalists to the government, maybe the gypsies are the only one who get attention. Ukrainians, and by extensions Rusyns, are spared and let alone in their own silence. So I don't imagine the Romanian Rusyns will be wiped off the map any time soon. To be frank, a video about the attitude of every country towards the Rusyns would be epic.
Also np dude, lmao, you were not rude.
@@lemkowithhistory I saw Ukrainian comments on youtube blaming interwar Romania for "artificially splitting" the Ukrainians in two groups: Ruthenians and Ukrainians. Probably now Romania has a policy inherited from the USSR times and/or from present-day political maps: if Zakarpattia is Ukraine, then those people are Ukrainians (period). For sure, identifying as Rusyn is not forbidden. As you remarked, there is the Cultural Union of Rusyns in Romania; there is the Parliamentary representation and there are the Census results (according to the 2002 census, 262 people identified themselves as "Ruthenian". At the same time, 3,890 Romanian citizens considered themselves Hutsuls, considered a subgroup of the Ruthenians. It is difficult to calculate the actual number of Ruthenians, as many of them considered themselves Ukrainians.
About artificially splitting - the funny thing is Ukraine now is splitting my ethnicity in two: Moldavian / Romanian. Well, Moldavian is not a separate ethnicity. As a Moldovan with good history background, I can tell our ethnic identity was always "Romanian", while "Moldovan" was only a regional identity - that is up to Stalin, which claimed Moldovan is a different ethnicity so he can "free" (occupy) Bessarabia, future Moldovan SSR. But basically, Romanians established a medieval state named Moldova (toponim) in the 14th century, then they used both two terms Moldovan / Romanian (or Wallachian, in foreign languages) for themselves, as clearly seen in our medieval Moldovan books. We have one language - the same used by the rest of Romanians but still Ukraine prints two sets of identical school manuals: a "Romanian" one / and a "Moldovan" one. More, some people asking to be identified as "Romanian" in southern Ukraine (historic Bessarabia) are pressed to keep only a Moldovan identity (for example - they are fired; they are threatened etc).
I see there is place "Erdohorvati" in Hungaria... Interesting is that word for "fire" "vatra" is used only by Croats (Hrvati) and Srbs and by Lemko people in Carpathian mountains. What is relation between Lemko and Boiki people and between Polish Lendziani ... ? Are Boiki also using word "vatra" ?... my conclusion was that this word "vatra" has cognates only in ancient Avestan word "atar"... and "vatra" is probably derivation from: Slavic prothesis "v"+ at(a)r +a ... All other Slavic people are using ogień, ogon, ogenj, oganj... in Latin: ignis, Vedic: Agni, neoindoaryan: aag, aga ... German: Feuer, Engl: fire, other north- Germanic: brand ... Romance languages: foc (Romanian, Catalan), fuego (espanol), etc.
These are all Rusyn sub-groups. The most widely known ones are Dolinyan, Lemko, Boyko, and then just general Rusnaks.
Vatra is probably a Dacian/Thracian and/or maybe Illyrian-origin word, since both in Romanian and Albanian vatră / vatër means fire-place, the hearth of the house; possibly cognate within the Indo-European family with ”hearth” itself (Romanian vatră = haard in Dutch, for example).
Why is it met at peoples heavily influenced by Vlachs? No surprise!
Imma necro-answer this but Erdőhorváti does not mean what you thought.
The original name of the village in the middle ages was Horváti, after the noble family who owned the land.
Horvát - Croat
Horváti - from/of a Croat
Erdő - forest
Cheers!
Згідно з Толочко, Рибаковим та низкою інших істориків, Русь у вузьеому сенсі була на теритррії сучасного Київа, Чернігова та Переяслава, а отже на території сучасної України, літописці з інших земель(принаймні до монгольського нашестя) себе Руссю не називали, аргумент з Білоруссю не канає
The Treaty of Hadiach of 1658 can be said to mark the traditional eastern border of "genuine" (historical) Ukraine. The Crimean Peninsula is not included, because it belonged to the Crimean Khanate at the time. In the diagram on this video, Ukraine is referred to by its older name, Ruthenia.
Thus, if "worse comes to worse," Russia might demand return of the southernmost and easternmost portions of modern Ukraine. On the other hand, any Russian demand for traditional Ukrainian land (included in the Treaty of Hadiach) could bring war.
mistere early, I think you meant to say "if worse comes to WORST", meaning "if what is now worse(badder) becomes the worst"! And now (March 18, 2022)at least as far as Ukraine is concerned, the worst(an invasion and war by Putin) has happened.
This aged well
Calling Rucynacs Ukrainian is like calling Assyrians or Kurds Arabs. You wouldn't call a Kurd an Arab so why call a Rucynac Ukrainian
Right? Like why is it so hard for them to accept that there are people from different ethnic groups out there...
I'm a Rusyn from Hungary, and I can't even speak my ethnical language. Can anyone recommend me ways to learn Rusyn?
A work of art surely!! This video will be used for years to come when Ukrainians try to use this strategy!
How much they will actually listen to it? I don't know but it's worth a try.
HAha haha haha you predicted the future here
Belarus and Ukraine should merge together as a common entity called Ruthenian, claiming both languages to be Ruthenian and dialects of it seperate from Rusyn and Russian
The Belarusians would "now" be at war with Russia.
Why would Belarus want to join the most corrupt and poor country in Europe and be owned by Black Rock in perpetuity?
What about us Macedonians ?
что
Have you thought about creating a discord server ?
Yes we have this Rusyn server which I'm a mod in. discord.gg/E4wF8f. All welcome as long as they're respectful.
Ruthenia is Latin for Russia.
"Rus people" =/= "russian"
Ukrainian imperialism???
Yes
@@lemkowithhistory may you explain? And some links.
I have already explained in the video :) . It is the same thing that Russians do to Ukrainians.
@@lemkowithhistory you didn't explain, you just mentioned such term.
May you give any links which proofs yours accusation.
That Ukrainians don't allow Rusyns to identify as Rusyns?
Glory to Kievan Rus’
Don’t call Russyns Rhutenians because that’s a foreign name never used or accepted but do refer to Romanian as Vlahs. Bias bonk exposed.
Ukrainiams does to Rusyn people the same thing that the Russians do to Ukrainians lol
I've been saying that all along but they never listen.
Another good and informative video! Thumbs up : )
Thank you! Your comments are much appreciated.
Could you explain to me what the hell is a Ruthenian? I've never heard that name in my life except on the Mendeleev's table of elements and Paradox© games. I don't mean to be disrespectful.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns
HORVATIAN is their original identity from pre-rus times. The craddle of the slavic languages is western ukraine, southeastern poland and eastern slovakia aka the old homeland Horvatiya. Read "Velikaya Horvatiya" from Mayorov.
100%
Konoshevka?
Isn’t ruthenia just belorus?
I am Rusyn. My blood is from Brody. A true child of Rurik. MY BLOOD IS PURE!
Iam rusyn😊
First! The picture you used for Russians made me roll 😂
Well perhaps I should have used a more calm one to be honest.
rusyn was also a therm for people from moscow
If you see it, just know we see Subcarpathian rusyns as our brothers aganist the ukrainen oppression❤🇭🇺
Rusyn its old name of ukrainians
Айно бай мы Карпато-русины
Belarusians: 💀
Roxoalani > Ruslini > Rusini
Roxo = White. White Alans
Alans, Alania = ancient greek name
Sarmati > Charvati (Xarvati)
White Croats
Sarmatia = ancient rome name
😉
ukrainians are just russians though just like belorussians, the cantonese ppl are just as Han chinese as mandarin the language difference doesnt matter