Not only did Beethoven discover an apparent swing rhythm before swing was a thing, but so did Bach. If you look at the second fugue in The Art of Fugue, it’s a rhythm identical to this.
I guess it depends on how you hear it. If you listen to this without knowing the piece, it sounds merry and hopeful. But in the context of the thunderous first movement and the Arietta... to me this part sounds desperate, like an outburst of helplessness despite the major key. Beethoven is such a genius, expressing despair in C major.
Lol, that's creative. The entire second movement is in C major. How is this variation somehow "desperate" while you identify no other variations as such? And this movement is preceded by another movement with a similar (albeit more gradual) swing rhythm-- how is that movement not "desperate" as well? Perhaps you're just desperate to find it joyless and offer a "unique" interpretation. I've heard no other commentator or pianist reach your conclusion.
@@prometheusrex1 I'm afraid I miss your point. I don't think I implied the other parts don't sound desperate, unless I fail to reread myself correctly. I also didn't say the despair was due to the key - or the swing rythm, either (which would certainly be a strange approach, as I'm sure you would agree). Quite the opposite, the passage sounds like this to me *despite* its major key and rhythm, if that makes it clearer for you :)
Here he was, completely deaf by this time, 100 years before jazz was invented and almost as much before blues, channeling it from above like a true creative master. This section deserves its fame, as it is one of the most visionnary passages of music's history.
@HappyPiano: do you have any evidence to disprove the conclusions of Dr. Theodore Albrecht (musicologist at Kent State)-- which are based on recently discovered contemporaneous documents (as of 2020)-- indicating that Beethoven could likely hear until at least 1826?
@@prometheusrex1 The only source I could find directly from Beethoven was “…I have fairly preserved my left ear in this way”. I say perhaps that could’ve been past tense. I can’t find it in the original German, however.
@HappyPiano: Thanks. So if anything, your quotation seems to SUPPORT Dr. Albrecht's conclusion. I'm not aware of research disproving Albrecht's conclusions-- and you haven't pointed to any either, my friend. As a result, the original post -- and your "1815" date -- are likely incorrect.
I used to play this on my hifi to people and asked them to guess when it was composed. They were astonished when I told them it was in the early 1820s. When I first heard it I burst out laughing!
Reminds me of the similarities between Chopin's atonal sounding 4th movement in his Sonata, which seemed so out of place for its time, yet eerily prophetic.
@@franciscopetracco5553 when people want to refer to non-tonal music, they practically never say "chromatic", because the use of this term is restricted to a tonal framework. E.g. Rachmaninoff is widely known for his refined chromatic language, but all of his pieces are tonal.
Now I understand why people have been asserting that Beethoven created Boogie Woogie or Rock n Roll. Those genres of music are similar to this. It's somewhat amusing that when I first learned about boogie woogie, I misremembered it as having a pattern which is displayed by this sonata.
I recall once commenting on the "futuristic" jazz component of this series of variations. I got an interesting response: A commenter started SCREAMING at me online. Had he been in the room, I think he would have physically attacked me. You state it "obviously has no connection between Jazz or BW". OK. it doesn't. Then why does it SOUND like it does? Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
@@dang5874 We all have confirmation bias. That makes us human. The key is understanding that you have it. It's not exactly an evil characteristic of humans, but it sure exists. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
As Barenboim said, there's no "boogie" here and the vibe is much more that of spiritual ecstasy. It may sound otherwise to you in the 21st century, but to impute that to Beethoven is complete anachronism.
It has not so much to do with boogie woogie. The main characteristics of boogie woogie is that is a fast played blues with a repeted swinging ostinato pattern in the left hand. However I do think this piece has some jazzy feeling to it because of the rhythm.
Boogie-woogie characteristics here are: dominant major chords (usually I, IV, and V), shuffle rhythm, prominent and distinct bass line. So it's rather close to it.
This is why he was a great innovator and bridged the classic and romantic periods of music...As a general rule" purists" are great as a barometer but some need more fiber in their diet so they can feel better ...
If this were to translate to a boogie woogie context then the 16th note/32nd note pattern would be swapped for a triplet pattern as the swing is too severe.
Great music is discovered as much as it is invented - especially in the case of Beethoven's approach to composition. It is the humility in the face of the material that makes for true genius. Here he is discovering the special energy of consistent syncopation which is what made boogy woogy popular and appealing a few generations later. There is no issue here except with pianists who will try to break that in the most absurd attempts at following what Beethoven has written but otherwise doing everything they can possibly manage to prevent the full boogy woogy flow the composer has obviously discovered. I have always assumed this to be either snobbery or racism on the part of those pianists who intentionally stiffen up against the flow here
It shows only how popular music has rotten our sense of hearing. A friend of mine who was a gifted pianist, called popular music, bang-bang parking. He even made this kind of music, but never liked it.
Beethoven: "I guess you guys aren't ready for that yet. But your kids are gonna love it."
man of culture
Underrated comment. Lmao
Grandkids
For those who actually get the reference
Roll Over, McFly.
I've listened to this Sonata thousands of times, and I looked across the entire internet just to find this fragment. This is geniality at its finest.
Not only did Beethoven discover an apparent swing rhythm before swing was a thing, but so did Bach. If you look at the second fugue in The Art of Fugue, it’s a rhythm identical to this.
That one is dotted 8th, 16th (3:1), while this is 32nd, 64th (2:1), so it's not quite the same. It does have the syncopated upbeats, though.
That one by Bach is just in the French style, it's not his own invention. Almost all French music was style inegale
I guess it depends on how you hear it. If you listen to this without knowing the piece, it sounds merry and hopeful. But in the context of the thunderous first movement and the Arietta... to me this part sounds desperate, like an outburst of helplessness despite the major key. Beethoven is such a genius, expressing despair in C major.
Lol, that's creative. The entire second movement is in C major. How is this variation somehow "desperate" while you identify no other variations as such? And this movement is preceded by another movement with a similar (albeit more gradual) swing rhythm-- how is that movement not "desperate" as well? Perhaps you're just desperate to find it joyless and offer a "unique" interpretation. I've heard no other commentator or pianist reach your conclusion.
@@prometheusrex1 I'm afraid I miss your point. I don't think I implied the other parts don't sound desperate, unless I fail to reread myself correctly. I also didn't say the despair was due to the key - or the swing rythm, either (which would certainly be a strange approach, as I'm sure you would agree). Quite the opposite, the passage sounds like this to me *despite* its major key and rhythm, if that makes it clearer for you :)
Yeah, It's always super surprising to hear it in context. It's so out of left field, the rhythm is what tips me off that not all is well.
Classic example of "this guy is so smart, and because I see exactly how smart he is, I must also be brilliant"
@@electromagneticlemon Why did you feel the need to comment that?
Here he was, completely deaf by this time, 100 years before jazz was invented and almost as much before blues, channeling it from above like a true creative master. This section deserves its fame, as it is one of the most visionnary passages of music's history.
Beethoven never went fully deaf until 1826. But this was composed in 1822.
@@prometheusrex1
Most people say around 1815 was when he went deaf.
@HappyPiano: do you have any evidence to disprove the conclusions of Dr. Theodore Albrecht (musicologist at Kent State)-- which are based on recently discovered contemporaneous documents (as of 2020)-- indicating that Beethoven could likely hear until at least 1826?
@@prometheusrex1
The only source I could find directly from Beethoven was “…I have fairly preserved my left ear in this way”. I say perhaps that could’ve been past tense. I can’t find it in the original German, however.
@HappyPiano: Thanks. So if anything, your quotation seems to SUPPORT Dr. Albrecht's conclusion. I'm not aware of research disproving Albrecht's conclusions-- and you haven't pointed to any either, my friend. As a result, the original post -- and your "1815" date -- are likely incorrect.
I used to play this on my hifi to people and asked them to guess when it was composed. They were astonished when I told them it was in the early 1820s. When I first heard it I burst out laughing!
Wish someone had told Beethoven about the swing tempo equation
I cannot stop replaying this! It's a joy.
I thought I was supposed to be listening to a classical piece and this man gave me ragtime /s
This was enjoyable!
Yes, ragtime, not boogie-woogie.
Beethoven invented jazz music
Reminds me of the similarities between Chopin's atonal sounding 4th movement in his Sonata, which seemed so out of place for its time, yet eerily prophetic.
The Chopin 4th movement an amazing piece! Played slowly though, you realize it is actually a highly chromatic tonal piece.
@Mazzel Tov was referring to Chopin 4th movement.
@@dr.guyshkolnik_composer I mean, chromatic music isn't tonal music
@@franciscopetracco5553 when people want to refer to non-tonal music, they practically never say "chromatic", because the use of this term is restricted to a tonal framework. E.g. Rachmaninoff is widely known for his refined chromatic language, but all of his pieces are tonal.
Btw everyone, listen to Rachmaninoff's recording of said Chopin's movement, it truly changes how you listen to the piece
Thanks for sharing this! I was dancing in my chair.
Jazz Beethoven
The variation before it sounds like Ragtime or Swing!
Can’t believe this was “only” 100 years before jazz. Sounds so weird coz I always think that Beethoven came way before
Andras Schiff just despises when people refer to this as boogie woogie. I'm not really sure what to make out of it, other than it's great stuff.
It's a lot like ragtime
Andras Schiff can get over it. It's the boogie-woogie.
Amazing.
This is right up my street ❤
bruh y’all need to liszten to contrapunctus 2 by bach
Hahah I had the same thought
yeee
@@Kapoompahpeempahpoompah ok👍
Now I understand why people have been asserting that Beethoven created Boogie Woogie or Rock n Roll.
Those genres of music are similar to this.
It's somewhat amusing that when I first learned about boogie woogie, I misremembered it as having a pattern which is displayed by this sonata.
Auf den Bonner Meister...Ein Wohl 🙏
What was the public’s reaction this this when it was released?
Great question
It was not played in public
I recall once commenting on the "futuristic" jazz component of this series of variations. I got an interesting response: A commenter started SCREAMING at me online. Had he been in the room, I think he would have physically attacked me.
You state it "obviously has no connection between Jazz or BW". OK. it doesn't. Then why does it SOUND like it does?
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
I agree with him
You sound like you just want them to be connected, which doesn't make it true, but makes you prone to confirmation bias.
@@dang5874 We all have confirmation bias. That makes us human. The key is understanding that you have it. It's not exactly an evil characteristic of humans, but it sure exists.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
As Barenboim said, there's no "boogie" here and the vibe is much more that of spiritual ecstasy. It may sound otherwise to you in the 21st century, but to impute that to Beethoven is complete anachronism.
@@prometheusrex1 East does it. It's not that serious an issue.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
It has not so much to do with boogie woogie. The main characteristics of boogie woogie is that is a fast played blues with a repeted swinging ostinato pattern in the left hand. However I do think this piece has some jazzy feeling to it because of the rhythm.
Its more ragtime than anything. It surprises so many people here cant make the distinction between ragtime, boogie woogie, and jazz
@@sayanorasonic This sounds a lot like ragtime to me
Boogie-woogie characteristics here are: dominant major chords (usually I, IV, and V), shuffle rhythm, prominent and distinct bass line. So it's rather close to it.
@@sayanorasonic really? It’s a classical piece. Most classical people don’t know shit about jazz, myself included 😊
It is actually a combo of boogie woogie, jazz and ragtime, so basically a three in one masterpiece.
This is why he was a great innovator and bridged the classic and romantic periods of music...As a general rule" purists" are great as a barometer but some need more fiber in their diet so they can feel better ...
I dreamed to have met a guy called "Scott Joplin" in 1902. He played something like this... Weird, isn't it?
I thought you died, I certainly didn't know you were active on youtube, small century I guess.
If this were to translate to a boogie woogie context then the 16th note/32nd note pattern would be swapped for a triplet pattern as the swing is too severe.
Very cool
Great music is discovered as much as it is invented - especially in the case of Beethoven's approach to composition.
It is the humility in the face of the material that makes for true genius.
Here he is discovering the special energy of consistent syncopation which is what made boogy woogy popular and appealing a few generations later. There is no issue here except with pianists who will try to break that in the most absurd attempts at following what Beethoven has written but otherwise doing everything they can possibly manage to prevent the full boogy woogy flow the composer has obviously discovered.
I have always assumed this to be either snobbery or racism on the part of those pianists who intentionally stiffen up against the flow here
@@PEDRO_boaro I'm afraid I cannot understand your reply, and youtube doesn't allow me to even copy your text to put into a translation programme.
Ye
1:30 Beethoven + Jazz
Louisiana Ludwig.
Beethoven really predicted ragtime in 1822
Ludwig Van Gershwin
Sounds very Nintendo/Mario
Has it ever been featured?
I think it's very likely the over world theme in Super Mario 2 is intentionally inspired from this piece.
Who is playing? Andras Schiff? let us know!! From which recording? THX!!
it's recording of pollini!
It’s this kind of stuff that makes those old dead white guys big guns in music. People may hate them but they taped into some amazing stuff.
Sounds more like Bach. He also used swing rhythms in some of his works.
About 20 years after this in Texarkana, a German piano teacher taught a young boy. ruclips.net/video/BweSQtoc8D0/видео.html
Who listening to this in 2024?
a mi me suena twist
lmao look at all the salty Beethoven purists down here
rag
WAY too much pedal where NONE is required by the score
Omg, who was the idiot to call it boogie 😷 this is already the music of spheres and planets
Strawinsky
It shows only how popular music has rotten our sense of hearing. A friend of mine who was a gifted pianist, called popular music, bang-bang parking. He even made this kind of music, but never liked it.
Terrible playing like Ragtime music!@@shameful
A piece of poop written by Ludwig....must have had a bad hairing (pun) day.
not a chopin fan talking