Let us know in the comments below what you thought and what you think next week's Honest Trailer will be! Thanks for watching! One: Speak up and join the conversation- we encourage respectful debate. Two: Respect your community- racism, misogyny, homophobia and hate speech aren’t tolerated. And three: “Be nice.” - Dalton from Roadhouse
Hey guys, I’m a long time fan. I really enjoyed this episode because my instinctive response to this movie was relatively similar to Dan’s, but Joe and Spencer’s points of view injected new ways to think about this movie during this video’s discussion, ways that I had never heard before. So while Dan is a master at arguments (one might call him a master-debator 😉) I would like to congratulate and encourage the discussions that you have during these behind the scenes videos and to encourage Joe and Spencer to try and tackle Dan on his favored field of battle (long form rants) more often since I feel like 3 people can give more food for thought than one. Anyway I really want to thank everyone for their great work I love you guys.
In answer to Spencer's question of why else Luke could have ran away in the first place in Ep. 7... He could have just given up. He watched his two mentors die, and the Jedi with them. He saved his father, only to watch him die too. He tried to save the Jedi with his school, but his own nephew becomes the next Vader. Luke could have just said, "There's nothing I can do. Maybe I'm only making it worse." Maybe he even questions the Prophecy and whether the Skywalker family is the villian of the story. I mean, the "Balance of the Force," did kill off all the Jedi and let the Empire win in Ep. 3. And even after Ep. 6, by Ep. 7, the Dark Side put in a New Order, while the Resistance can barely fight back. That's more than enough reasons for him to decide he's done trying to save the galaxy and failing.
ScreenJunkies News hey guys i reconmend Maulers 3 part review of the last jedi if anyone needs in depth review of why it is terrible or voxis productions for a fun review.
There are people who understand why some fans disliked the movie. There are people who understand why some fans liked the movie. Unfortunately, those mature, understanding fans are not the ones occupying comment sections and Twitter feeds.
Simple Answer I feel like “objectively terrible” applies to things that are known as being universally and unequivocally terrible, like terrorism and dogfighting, but sure dude :p
Simple Answer Not accusing you of being ridiculous dude. I said something about the movie with the intention of showing proper consideration of how both “sides” view the movie, and you commented with the intention of informing me that it’s just a terrible movie, despite some people or critics liking the movie and/or approving of its quality. This veered off from my point, which was that many people liked the movie, many people didn’t. If you believe it’s “objectively terrible” then okay, but invalidating the fact that it was a movie that many people may and have viewed as being a high quality or good movie doesn’t make for a sound discussion, or a respectful one. This debate will go on forever in that fashion with said attitude. Ultimately, it’s just a movie. You may think it’s terrible. Someone else might think it’s wonderful. Both are legitimate opinions, so long as they aren’t treated as indisputable fact. Ya feel me?
Simple Answer That’s not what I am saying. I never made the implication that opinions can’t be challenged. I actually coincided with that idea, because I said they shouldn’t be treated as indisputable FACTS. That’s all I was saying. And when it comes to movies, especially ones that don’t result in the response of a unanimous majority of people voicing in unison,”This movie is simply a bad movie”, we probably can both agree that objectivity is scarce, because they are forms of art, unless you’re like an actual critic (but who relies 100% on their reviews before watching a film). And then when taking into account the position of these franchises and their influence in pop culture, the line becomes even more blurred. But I never said opinions can’t be challenged. I’m not sure how else to emphasize my original point, which was supposed to address both sides of the fanbase/audience for what they are idealistically, without the meanness or toxicity of some in the community after the release of TLJ, and even 3 months later, interestingly. But anyway, I hope you have a nice day man. Imma go back to watching Parks and Rec :)
@DejaVoodooDoll You mean the message from Empire that was done infinitely better? Set up and executed in every conceivable way. So take away the on the nose failure message, a failure that was not given any set up or hardly any explanation for, you're left with this nihilistic point of everything sucks. Luke's logic was so incredibly flawed. Just because he decided to denounce the Jedi doesn't mean the Sith just stops being evil but the movie wants me to believe that Luke believed that and that's why he gave up? Luke was cool not being there to help his friends and family?
This is true. In his Mission Impossible 3, we never find out what the Rabbit’s Foot actually is, even though it is the macguffin and main focus for the entire plot of the movie. Or, when he does have a plan it’s literally so obvious that fans can guess what it is ahead of time and he lies about it to maintain the “surprise” (ie: Cumberbatch was not Khan until he did end up being Khan anyway)
Yeah, I don't really like JJ. For how poised and methodical Kathleen seems to be, I'm surprised that she doesn't or didn't have a better plan for her directors to follow.
I mean maybe the approach they took was “this is beginning, and this is how it ends. How we get there is up to you when you write the script, but that’s where we need to end up.” The problem with that is you’ll end up with massive disparities between plot points like what happened in 7 and 8. What’s important to one director may not be as important to another. I just hope JJ doesn’t circle back around to his stuff that he set up and redo it, because like it or not, Rian already dealt with it, and it would be like we’re retreading the same ground. Keep moving the characters forward and it should be ok.
swidly that’s because they never knew they would even have the means to make a sequel to Star Wars. George had outlines/treatments (that were vastly altered to accommodate the trilogy, sure) But Disney is a multi billon dollar company, it’s honestly silly for them not to have Lawrence kazdan or some other accomplished screenwriter at least write a script treatment for this trilogy, where things should end up. They’re literally just making it up as they go. Even George knew more or less where he wanted his characters to end up.
I really appreciate Dan calling out people being obtuse when faced with arguments against TLJ. I ultimately liked it but I hated I couldn't call anything out without someone saying "you just can't handle change!"
As always, I agree with Dan. I think the problem with The Last Jedi is not that it subverts expectations, but the way it subverts them. The execution of the events is where the movie is weak.
Had to add for alternative options as was challenged. Small changes to the story I think could have helped. Luke left for the island because he is seeking the temple to find a different way to end the conflict not using violence. He afterall, lost friends, defeated the empire and the fighting still raged on. The imbalance in the force is causing this conflict in his mind. He did not cut himself off from the force, but has been researching and mediating. He is handed the light saber, and instead of chucking it, he hands it back and says "this is not going to solve anything." He hands it back to Rey. It would show honor to the past as he is leaving it worth, but also shows that he has grown. This allows the next part of the Rey/Luke conflict to not be about whether she gets trained, but whether she agrees with his philosophy that armed fight won't solve anything. She can hold that if Luke was around than Han might be alive. Luke can counter with everyone who he has lost in the fight and how the first order just came back around even after the empire was beat. It puts his statement that he can't stand with a light saber in front of the the First Order in better context. Less about nihilistic of life, and more about loss of faith in approach. When she leaves to fight, Luke can at least be confronted by Yoda about how sitting on a planet won't solve anything -- Yoda should know after all. Yoda tells Luke that if violence is not the way to solve this problem than neither is complacency. Luke needs to learn from Yoda's mistakes and do anything that gives people hope (apparently, all themes in these movies come back to hope even when I'm typing them). Luke finds a solution to fight without fight without violence -- the force projection distraction. Then add a few ending shots not just some kids talking about Luke Skywalker's defeating the First Order, but show Luke's tale being told in bars, on ships etc. This would end the movie with the hope that the rebellion will keep growing despite the loss of so much. Finally, it also shows Rey that there may be solutions to this conflict without violence, but not necessarily without loss. It sets up a conflict for her in the last movie. Overall, I liked the Last Jedi, but I feel like the ideas could have been improved slightly to just fit in with the Universe a little more. Just one person's thoughts responding to the Speny-G's challenge.
Can we all just appreciate how good the visuals were in this movie? Not to discredit the plot holes and discrepancies with TFA, but this movie was visually stunning especially in the third act. The battle on Crait, the throne room, and the destruction of the star destroyer were all especially well shot.
I don't know Dan, you say that the movie is saying "everything sucks" but I mean by the end Luke says "I will not be the last Jedi" showing that it's a bit of a reaffirmation of the Jedi. They may have to change, but the Jedi should still be around.
The movie itself never said the Jedi are wrong. Luke Skywalker did. It's like if a villian believes the world must die. The movie doesn't say that. The villian did.
The central theme of this movie is that everything that went before sucks/is stupid/must die. The fallen hero of the original trilogy says it for 90% of the movie, relics are thrown away/destroyed, the main villain of the two new movies says it explicitly, the wise mentor of the OT says it, anyone can now use the force at will... Besides writing it explicitly on the screen, I don't see what else the movie could do to highlight this message for you.
Pete H But he disagrees with himself in the end, and Finn rejects DJ's ideas, and Rey doesn't join up with Kylo. The movie brings up the idea a bunch of different ways, but rejects it in the end in all of those ways. Also, what relics are destroyed?
I honestly don't understand how the takeaway people are getting from The Last Jedi is that everything doesn't matter and needs to die. That's Kylo's belief: "let the past die, kill it if you have to." But clearly he's in the wrong - the message of the movie by the end is that you do have to move on from the past, but still honor it and learn from it.
First, that wasn't just Kylo's message, it was also Luke's message...AND apparently Yoda's message, too. Second, while I might agree with the message that you have to move on from the past, the movie does a terrible job of conveying this by making every other scene a blatant rip-off of the past movies--scenes, situations, characters, dialogue, etc.....TLJ stole more bits from the OT than any other chapter in the saga.
Third, Rey is one of the worst people to take this message to heart, given that she knows nothing of the past to learn from (insofar as the Jedi are concerned). Two weeks earlier, she was an orphaned scavenger on an impoverished world who thought Luke and the Jedi were just some fictional fairy tale and she didn't know what the Force was. What was she supposed to learn from a history she knows nothing about and a teacher who won't teach her? Personally, I always thought/hoped that would be the direction Luke would go if they ever made a sequel to ROTJ. Even back in the 80's, it seemed clear to me that if Luke was to recruit new Jedi Knights, he would have to start from scratch and build a new order in his own image. Luke was the product of the last of the old Republic Knights, but also a son of a Sith dark lord. If there was ever ANYBODY positioned to learn from the mistakes of the past, it was Luke. Yoda literally tasked Luke with moving forward in his own way. After the prequels, I really hoped that a future movie would show Luke Skywalker teaching students about how to BALANCE both the light and the dark within them. To study the ways of the Jedi, but also to learn from the mistakes of the Jedi Order who basically shunned all emotions and passions, while also guarding against the excesses and hatred of the Sith. Because that's what life is about, isn't it? Not all light, not all dark. Balance. The Jedi are as unbalanced as the Sith. Both take their philosophies to the extremes. Luke beat Vader when he tapped into his anger, but then reigned it back in. Luke is the product of both and survived only because he could master them within his self. We all have both. I thought that not only would have been a great story for an audience, but that Luke would be the perfect teacher for it (and someone who fails/refuses to control the balance within them would be the perfect villain) Or at least something along those lines. Instead we got.....what? Even the producers don't know what these movies are doing.
I dislike the last Jedi but what I dislike more is that there are people that sees you as sexist, fanboy, failed theorizer, nostalgia baby, or simply hated of anything new. There are legitimate plot holes that ruin the movie for me and poor characters writing. For me this movie felt like a life-action tv episode instead of a movie. There are several miss opportunities that episode 7 left and were unused or simply discharged and that pains me because this could have had a lot of potential.
Is that what Spencer and Joe are arguing? Why not engage what they said rather than arguing into the void against the commenters that aren’t in this video?
This comment sounds like an excuse to just hate on the movie. I agree that calling people a "nostalgia baby" or "hater" is not a mature thing to do, but you do realize that there are plenty of people who bash on those who actually loved this movie. You should include both sides of the argument.
Is not really the viewers that annoy me. Is more the producers, reviewers, and some actors that said blame things on the fans that bothers me. For example Daisy Ridley was asked about the Mary sue comments for Rey and she said that calling her that is sexist. Some producers blame the poor reception of the movie to the people theorizing, and a few reviewers said that the movie was great and those who disliked it was because they are closed minded cause of nostalgia. Aside it pains me seeing Mark Hamill so obviously being shut on his opinions by Disney. I saw this movie with questions in my mind, I was dissatisfied with the answers the movie gave me and ignored. As simply as that. Visuals were very good thou.
I felt exhausted for Dan. You could feel his frustration again. He is right: Spencer kept countering with ridiculous statements as if they were they only options. It happened during the last discussion. It was like a smart kid trying to assemble a humble structure out of blocks and Spencer just kept kicking them over jokingly, and no-one got anywhere. It's not enjoyable to watch debates like these anymore. I hope that Spencer strikes a better balance of being funny and being more reasonable. I wasn't a fan of the film, but it's not because I'm a purist who didn't want anything to change or whatever. It's not what you do, but HOW you do it. For me, most of the major plot points were jarring at almost every turn - and not in a good way. The only twist I liked was that Rey's parents were nobodies. On another note, I recently saw The Fallen Knight fan edit, and liked it better than TLJ. I recommend it to those who didn't like the original movie. A lot of bad things were cut out. Anyway, stay strong, Dan!
Thanks, Dan. For voicing your frustrations with the film (the overwhelming majority of which I share) in a civil way but also without backing down, especially starting at 15:15. I don't know how hard it is for you to say stuff like that without fully giving in to your frustration, but I think it's commendable that you critique it without getting angry with Joe or Spencer on a personal level but also sticking to your viewpoint. Critiquing the overt, excessive nihilism and the overuse of attempted "subversion" often gets shut down in discussions (much like Joe and Spencer attempted at some points, and as you noted). It feels really tin-foil-hat-y, but sometimes (not all the time) it feels like most everyone else on the panel is just making sure they don't get ostracized for "wrong think" while living in an often PC-obsessive California and working in the entertainment industry. I don't know that I would detach myself like you do, so thank you Dan. For carrying yourself in such a respectable fashion, conversing with both civility and conviction.
I'm with Joe and Spencer on this one. I also recognize that Last Jedi didn't deliver the most streamlined and cohesive story and that it had a few hitches along the way, but I see the intent to create something a bit more complex and unexpected behind it, so I love Rian Johnson for that. This movie had great action scenes, the highs were really high, and I don't think Dan's argument of "It's too nihilistic" really holds considering this movie ends on a very hopeful note and virtually no one dies in the end. Again, I can totally empathize with why old fans wouldn't love this movie, but this is one of my favorite Star Wars movies thus far.
How on earth does it end on a hopeful note? The Resistance is now comprised of a couple dozen people on a single freighter, all their allies have abandoned them, Luke is dead, the First Order seems to have an endless amount of troops and resources, etc. I mean, the entire Resistance could now be killed by a single squadron of TIE fighters, and that's hopeful???
I respect Dan so much for having the capacity to consider both sides with complexity. It is easy to cast aside opposing views because they don't agree with yours, to consider them shows real intellectual maturity.
Meanwhile, on planet earth, Spencer is the one who can understand both sides and presents his views in a calm and reasonable manner, while Dan refuses to accept that people who like the film will not agree with him
Spencer is making jokes to diffuse the tension, not mocking them. And the only reason he says "fans aren't experts" is because it's ironic Star Wars fans are complaining about good writing when the original trilogy arguably had a ton of writing inconsistencies as well. It's not like he's unable to see both sides of the argument, it's that he thinks there are more good things to the Last Jedi than bad things. I also personally enjoy Spencer's optimistic arguments more by the way. I tend to nitpck as well, but it gets so tiring when people just focus on the negative stuff and want to argue the shit out of you.
I agree, I ranged from cringe to lukewarm during my theatre sitting, and mostly had issues with the narrative -- much like Dan. I'm disappointed that the Honest Trailers basically took the stance that if you didn't like the movie, you are a butthurt fan boy. There are completely valid criticisms of the movie that didn't even get mentioned and would normally be ripped on in an honest trailer.
Dan absolutely nailed this one. Having genuine issues with this movie is perfectly valid and it doesn't deserve the patronizing responses it gets from those who can't see any flaws in the movie. Spencer gave a prime example of this in the video when Dan correctly identified the lightsaber toss as the perfect analogy for people's dislike of the movie. You can understand what the movie was trying to do and still not like it or the way it does it. Countering with silly arguments makes your position look weak, not the other side. Being different is fine, and subverting some expectations is great, but when you're so completely different just to be different, and totally ignore and disrespect everything that has gone before, you've basically made a movie that screams "f**k you" at the people who loved this franchise and that's why it is so divisive. Also, shout out to Dan for mentioning Luke calling his lightsaber a "laser sword". One of the many things that irked me watching the movie. He was a Jedi Grand-master, he'd know what it was called.
As someone who personally loves this film, I agree with this sentiment. People should be able to share their perfectly valid criticisms without being patronized for it. However, the same can also be said for people who liked the movie sharing what they loved about it and discussing why they felt the writing decisions worked. What's a positive point for one person can be a negative point for another person and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem with the discussion as things stand now is that both sides are looking down on each other and saying "You're objectively wrong" or, "you have a garbage opinion". I don't know which side threw the first stone here, but there's plenty of blame on both sides for why the discussion has gotten so bad.
Dan is on point with all the gripes people have with the movie. There's a reason why there's such a divide; because it was a lackluster movie with tonal inconsistencies.
Can someone please tell me again why Rey is a part of this war, at all? Besides being force sensitive and just there what else does she really have going for her that contributes to her motivation?
This movie to me is like watching the superbowl and then suddenly a horse is used in the last play and I'm sitting there confused and everyone is talking about how cool it was, how awesome it looked and how it was subversive and therefore amazing. ...and I'm just sitting there wondering what happened to the rules?
Is like the end of karate kid. There was a rule saying "No kicks to the face" but our hero won with a kick to the face. So I guess as long as it serves it purpose you can bend the rules for our heroes.
If it's so logical, why not do the suicide run with autorun? No one needed to sacrifice themselves. "But you don't know if that's even possible or not! Maybe someone needs to pilot the ship(by himself? lol)", in that case, you don't know why no one has done a suicide run before.. you think it's logical but it can be reasons why... like it ruins the whole point of building a ship larger then a frigate.....
Sab I actually want to see Dan argue his point against Jenny Nicholson. Jenny was very resilient in her views against Scott Mance, who didnt like the film, and I think her arguing against Dan would be more conducive to producing a thought provoking discussion.
I would have been perfectly happy with them subverting expectations, but not with literally every beat of the movie. My biggest complaint was Luke throwing the lightsaber, because there were ways to get across that he had given up on the Jedi without that moment being comical. I didn't hate this movie, but I also didn't love it. I only saw it once and I saw the prequels each at least twice in the theater.
I'll say one thing: I'm glad they killed Snoke. Not from a storytelling perspective, but I just hate everything about that character's design. I don't think there is a single positive thing that I can say about him. Good riddance.
Until you realise Darth Emo is now in charge, and we got a little hint at how terrible THAT will be with his acting in Crait's battle (totally ridicilous). "Waaah, all fighters on ship. Waaaah, all guns on master. Waaaaah, waaaaah." What an intimidating interesting main villain. I wonder if Rey will manage to beat him a third time around, the suspension is KILLING ME.
To Dan's point that people don't seem to be able to understand why so many people dislike the movie, I really don't think that's the case. I've seen more people outright bashing others on the internet for "daring" to enjoy the movie, and I myself have been staying away from such discussions in fear of being told I'm wrong. It's been virtually impossible for me to say ANYTHING positive about the movie without being yelled at (even after admitting that I see its flaws) soooo just saying. :)
What Ive come to understand about Star Wars fandom, is that everyone makes his own SW, each one of us chooses what they like about it and get rid of what we dont like, and from there we make our own SW universe with the rules and canon we make sense of the most.
Speaking to Dan's point about the film's nihilism... I really think there's nuance he either doesn't notice (unlikely) or notices but maybe undervalues (more likely). Finn's journey is about the film offering him escapes from the Resistance/First Order fight. The gamblers themselves stay outside of the conflict altogether, the profiteers try to make bank off both sides at the same time, and DJ volleys between both sides, doing whatever keeps him alive. The film specifically has Finn say, "You're wrong" to DJ about his choice to help the First Order, to which he can only ofter a limp "Maybe," right before his choice to rat on Finn and Rose results in nearly the entire Resistance getting killed. (Despite the many people blaming the deaths in the Resistance on Finn/Rose, we have to agree that DJ is the person most directly responsible for what occurs. He builds their trust by helping them escape CB, helps them further by breaking the code, earns their trust even further by returning Rose's necklace... and then he turns his back on them and sells out an entire fleet to save his own skin. He's the worst possible version of Han Solo in "A New Hope.") Quickly, Luke's dispassion for the past Jedi, I didn't take as some sort of bleak nihilism. In truth, he's relating something the Prequels were trying to relate (maybe they failed for some), which was that the Jedi *were* impotent, they *did* fail to see the rise of Sidious, and in fact their downfall was portrayed at least partially as a consequence of their own hubris. Not for nothing that Yoda says "Failed, have I" at the end of *Revenge of the Sith*. Not for nothing that Obi-Wan says, "I have failed you, Anakin." Luke's read of the Republic's fall is incomplete but totally compatible with the Prequels. The rest of his nihilistic dark night of the soul we can chalk up to grief, and the film is at pains to show us that this is a prison of his own making. tl;dr - The film offers nihilistic characters with nihilistic solutions, but I really don't think the film itself defends that nihilism or considers it valid. It tests that nihilism, but every hero tested by it rejects it in favor of the moral cause of the Resistance's fight against the totalitarianism of the First Order. PS: I'm empathetic to Dan being frustrated with fanboys saying "Kill the past." First off, anyone saying that's the actual message of the film wasn't paying attention. The *villain* of the film says to kill the past. Luke regains his humanity and heroism only after he makes peace with his past and the past of the Jedi and takes up the mantle he swore off. Rey even saves the books (although she avoids Luke's tendency to enshrine them, which is key). The film's actual message is *learn* from the past - don't retreat from it, but don't be too reverential either. Second off, a single late-film declaration by Kylo should not forgive a series entry for every way it breaks with formula if those breaks aren't satisfying viewers on a narrative level. Clearly they aren't for Dan, so simply re-stating that line comes off like that meme about "Actually you need a high IQ to understand..."
People continue to have this belief that TLJ was saying that the past (Jedi, Skywalkers, legends) sucked, but it wasn't. It was simply asking that question with different characters set up on each side of the question. Rey vs. Luke and Kylo, Rose vs. DJ with Finn in the middle. I don't think the film comes out on the side of Luke and Kylo at all. Rey preserves the ancient knowledge, Luke becomes the hero the galaxy remembers, the Jedi don't die. How is that in any way a concession to Kylo's "Let the past die" or Luke's "It's time for the jedi to end"? For many fans, it was a hard question to think about, and they checked out before the movie had finished exploring the issue fully.
Because Rey stole the books. Yoda destroys the Tree and lets Luke think that the books are there. With those books gone the Jedi order is gone. Luke makes his last stand believing that the order is gone. Sure he is not going to be the last Jedi but the Jedi are not going to be the same things. A Knight today means a lot different than what it used to and so will the future Jedi. So the movie tries to have its cake and eat it too. It saves the books meaning Rey will learn and teach from the Old Way but has the former hero of the story go out thinking he is the last of the old guard and making personal peace with that lie.
I think your interpretation is a bit cynical. He doesn't know that Rey has the books, sure, but that doesn't mean that Rey is going to have a dogmatic approach to the Jedi religion, and won't let her own beliefs influence her understanding and practice of the religion. She saved the knowledge, but to say that Luke is making peace with a lie is just wrong. The Jedi will change, exactly how will probably be more clearly defined by JJ in IX. Luke/Mark Hamill is, at this point, literally the last of the old guard, but he firmly believes that the Jedi will continue, though they will be in Rey's image. Where exactly is the lie in that?
You can't have it both ways. Either Rey saving the Jedi text is in fact to indicate that she will be continuing the Jedi Order as it was with her own personal beliefs tinting it here and there (No doubt Luke's did as well). Or the Order is dead and what exist next will just be something called a Jedi but have no real connection to the roots of the original order. Luke is the last of the Jedi, proper, Kylo likely will die. If he doesn't he will be the Last Jedi. Rey is not a Jedi. She knows nothing of them except vague fairy tales and she has a few worn out books. Kylo was trained under the principles and ideals of the Jedi. If Kylo dies then the Jedi Order as it existed for thousands of years will be dead. Rey can create a new order and call it the Jedi Order. But it wont be the Jedi Order. She has none of the training, none of the philosophy of those teachings and scant few books to look it from. So either she makes it up as she goes along with some vague understanding of what the fuck the Jedi were preaching about. Or she buckles down and learns the Jedi way and fills in tiny missing fragments with her own beliefs. If she does the latter she is more or less just keeping the old jedi order alive on life support till she dies and books are lost or destroyed. If she makes her own order than she is just taking the name Jedi to use for her own uses. But Luke and Kylo are the Last Jedi in that sense.
I agree that Kylo's quote is over used and incorrect. Luke's quote, " This is not going to go the way you think." has lot of application and use no matter which side your talking to.
Of course it's applicable b/c, since the audience has been given no context clues since The Force Awakens (just to preserve J.J. Abram's s***ty "mystery box"), no one knows what way this franchise is going!
I don't think the movie said jedis suck and we nee to get rid of them. It's Luke who says that. But it comes from a place of pain and fear. Luke's feelings are not necessarily an absolute, universal truth. We saw him as an infallible hero. But he still is human and therefore not perfect. Luke's journey is actually to make peace with himself, the force and the jedis. That's why i also like his "death". He doesnt die in agony. He comes to terms with himself and becomes one with the force.
Except that combine that with "Kill the Past" sort of comes off heavy handed. Yes Luke being down in the dumps makes sense but damn if it doesn't beat you over the head calling you an idiot for being a fan.
Almighty Kue I do understand why you would interpret it that way. I'm just saying I never felt like that when I watched the film. I see those statements as expression of those characters in those specific situations, not as a universal truth or the overall message of the movie. Maybe it is because I'm relatively young and I didn't really grow up in a star wars era... but for me those traditional themes are not that sacred (i love star wars, don't get me wrong). This movie actually gave me something deeper to connect to because it felt more real, more human, beautifully flawed and therefore more close to home.
See I don't see that. I don't see anything deeper there to connect to. It just seems like contrived writing to me. You have characters with serious issues. Rey who is untouchable, unbeatable, and completely unrelatable (At least to me). You have Poe and Fynn either factory resetting to who they were at the beginning of the last movie or acting in conflict with what they did in the past.
Almighty Kue I totally understand that. I can only tell you what connects for me. Rey for me is reflecting the viewer. She is in many ways a "fan" of luke. She heard the old stories, idolizes him. It's what gave her hope, drove her when she had noone. Now she finds out that not everything is as glorious as told. People are just people who try their best. Not everything is black and white, good and evil. And most importantly she has to find her own way. That's pretty relateable to me. Also I think where she comes from is what makes her so strong. For Poe i don't really care that much. didn't get much from him in the force awakens. that didn't change here. And finn who comes from a place where you have to follow orders not necessarily be brave or strong, who struggles with standing up for anybody meets someone (Rose) who shows him that there are bigger things worth figthing for. The sacrifice cop out I'm split on. The sacrifice would habe been a way stronger scene but I feel like we still need Finn as a character. He is in many ways the common man.
That was not the message of the film! Its not that everyone sucks and the past must die, its that these are normal human beings and that you should not live in the past but put it in context and learn from it.
Dan was doing his best to acknowledge the validity of the arguments of favor of the movie while also trying to state his case as to what people didn't like about it, and I could feel his frustration at the other two actively trying to de-legitimize every single negative opinion he had. There was a lot of quality filmmaking on display in this movie to be perfectly honest, but the story and dialogue were objectively bad, like, worse than the prequels bad.
Dan, i love you! The way you described, how people who defend this movie argue was on point. Spencer, what did Luke do on the island: He studied the ancient jedi texts in hopes to find a way to eliminate the dark side, he either realized it couldnt be done and got so desperate that he lost all hope or he got so sidetracked and lost in the old texts that he forgot what he came there for in the first place. So Rey would have to bring him back fom that. - He took his students who survived Kylos betrayal there to finish their training far away from snokes influence and just wasn't quiet ready yet. - He wanted to meditate on his failures to ensure he does not make the same mistakes again and wasn't quiet ready yet. He just recently got there, like maybe one or two years ago, studied the texts, but then his X-Wing got destroyed in some storm and he is figuring out how to leave the planet. - He studied the texts, established connections to the old jedi masters as force ghosts, they told him he is not the one to finish this fight, but some young woman who is going to come to him, way stronger in the force than anyone before, to learn the jedi ways. - Turns out the old texts are really hard to understand and he needed the help of former masters to grasp it, and wasen't quiet ready yet. - He thought the island was an ancient jedi temple, but it was a place of the dark side, which corrupted his mind and made him leave everything behind, so Rey would have to bring him back from that. - He was developing some new form of lightsaber combat, force power, philosophy, but wasen't quiet ready yet. - He felt such raw strengh in Kylo, that he was shure he couldn't take him on, so he went into hiding to figure out a way to stop him, and then this amazingly strong in the force woman comes along. - He lost the keys to his X-Wing and couldn't find them, because the nun creatures had hidden them for a laugh (wouldn't have been worse then what we got) These were just some things i made up for the most part while writing this. And remember i am not a professional visionary genius like Ryan fucking Johnson. I had no story written in my head as i saw the movie, i deliberatly didn't fan fiction out before. The only thing i didn't want was for Luke to be killed of senslessly, just so we can put the new characters in the forefront. What i saw then was not what i suspected, true, but was for the most part just terrible shit. And the statement that these movies are so much better then what we got in the past is invalid, because it leaves out the OT, you know, the original trillogy, have you heard about those?
Just wanted to say I really liked the way you guys did the Honest Trailer, and this really- civilized, ya know, so that gives me the hope I was missing, I guess. Lol.
Fun Fact: The Original Star Wars Trilogy was UNPLANNED!!! The Luke and Leia kiss? And then they are brother and sister. That's the opposite! That's jarring!
Okay, I can understand why some people would be upset that the heroes they grew up loving didn't get the happy ending they initially thought, and that's completely reasonable. But the idea that the movie is somehow trying to tell you that all the things you love suck is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the movie was trying to say. It's not about forgetting the past, but embracing it. It's about celebrating the good things you did and learning from what you did wrong. Luke throws his lightsaber away, showing how he was devaluing all the great things he accomplished in his life because of one mistake that had horrible consequences. He resented his status as a legend, because he didn't feel he deserved it. However, after seeing the way those stories affected Rey and heeding the wise words of his former mentor, he later embraces that status (represented by the taking up of the same blue lightsaber he discarded at the beginning) and uses it as a spark to bring hope back to the galaxy after it appeared as though they had none left. The one saying "Kill the past" is Kylo Ren. He's the villain of the story and the film goes out of its way to show that HE IS WRONG. He believes that you need to forget the past in order to move on, and he suffers for it at the end. In TFA, he sticks a sword through his father's chest, it tears him apart emotionally and gets him destroyed physically. In TLJ, he tries the same thing, obviously not learning from the past he wants to destroy, and it's what allows the Resistance to escape and results in his humiliation in front of the military he just gained control of. The legend of Luke Skywalker lived on and was celebrated, while Kylo Ren was left all alone, as symbolized by the dice fading from his hand. It's deep and challenging stuff that you wouldn't get from a usual generic blockbuster film like Justice League. It's fine and completely acceptable to dislike the movie because you don't like the idea of Luke becoming an old hermit that hates himself and wants to die for most of the runtime. But please stop trying to act like this film actively insulted you, because that really wasn't Rian Johnson's intension. I feel like in a few years, when the anger has died down, people will take a step back and be able to appreciate The Last Jedi as the beautifully crafted, albeit flawed, film it really is.
The point of the movie wasn't that everything and everyone sucks and we should get rid of the past. That's what some of the characters are saying, but they're proven wrong. The point of the movie is that we aren't the past, we can't and shouldn't pretend we are. We need to understand and learn from the past, but live separately in our own way. And everything in the movie reinforces that. Poe makes decisions that in any other Star Wars movie would have succeeded, Finn and Rose's mission would have made it at the hair's breadth from destruction in any other film. But it didn't because these aren't the old films, they're new and they're their own thing. And I liked that Finn and Rose failed on teaming up with DJ because it shows you how badly things could have gone when Luke and Obi-Wan teamed up with Han. If Han hadn't secretly been a good person at heart and had some amount of morals (and a dislike of the Empire) then their trip to the Death Star would have gone a lot differently. They got lucky. And that's the point, not everyone gets lucky. People fail, but we continue to grow and learn and we don't give up, there's always hope. On a related note, I just finished a marathon of the original and prequel trilogies and the same amount of rebels, if not more, get killed in some of the stunts they pull as the one Poe tried at the beginning. And he would have grown up on those stories. We, and Leia, like to pretend it didn't happen, but it absolutely did
Yeah shame Dan doesn't get it (sorry Dan!). The point isn't everyone sucks and it's all meaningless. TLJ breaks it all down because it's trying to get back to the core of 'what is a hero?' What does it really mean to be a Jedi? What is the resistance/rebellion really fighting for? And by the end of the movie, we know the answer. That's why I thought the 'subversiveness' and 'unexpectedness' paid off. Spencer & Joe nailed it.
This idea that subverting the expectations doesn't hold up for everything. If the next movie opens with Rey walking down the ramp from the Falcon, tripping, and snapping her neck as she rolls down the ramp. It would be a major subvert to your expectations. But would it be good storytelling? I don't think so, but clearly subverting for the sake of subverting is awesome. But this movies preach about forgetting the past. To stop looking to it for inspiration or ideals. And to a lot of fans it was almost making fun of them for their love of the series and stories it tells. When you make a fan feel like you are attacking them its natural for them to become defensive. The Last Jedi's mantra was "Forget the past, kill it if you have to." well The Last Jedi is not in the past. After Episode 9 Rey will be in the past meaning watching these movies is pointless. The movie is telling us not to idolize these characters we grew up with, but to idolize this new chick who has been involved for 2 weeks. But following the logic of the film why should we give a damn about Rey? Why should we give a damn about the Resistance/Rebellion? None of it matters according to The Last Jedi. Because doing good things and fighting for what you believe in even if it means giving your life doesn't matter. Thats not the way to be a hero thats the way to be a fool. That is what is offending people. Btw, ask a soldier why they fight for our country. Its about protecting those they love, to fight for the ideals they hold most dear to them. It means they are willing to die for a cause they find just. But according to The Last Jedi, they are all fools.
Almighty Kue "This idea that subverting the expectations doesn't hold up for everything." I don't think anyone's arguing that "subverting for the sake of subverting is awesome". I mean, it's ok if you like the subversive stuff or not - that's totally subjective - but I do think the movie does it with a purpose, and to say that's the only reason people like the movie is a bit of a strawman argument. "The Last Jedi's mantra was "Forget the past, kill it if you have to."" Yes, the villain of the movie said that. And he was wrong. "Why should we give a damn about the Resistance/Rebellion?" The movie asks those questions and answers them by the end. In fact I think that's the whole point of the movie. "None of it matters according to The Last Jedi." I don't understand how people are arriving at this conclusion, unless they just stopped watching in the middle of the movie? Luke renounces the Jedi at the beginning of the film but by the end he not only realizes his error, but also the power of the Jedi as a symbol of hope. Luke even says, "THE JEDI ARE REBORN TODAY." That's his arc. Same with Finn. Finn learns why the rebellion needs to exist. At the start Finn tries to run away to save himself and Rey. In the middle, Benicio del Toro's character tells him good and bad don't really matter. By the end, Finn has rejected this and is ready to sacrifice his own life for the rebellion. That's his arc. (I really disagree with Dan's point about nihilism btw - the whole point of the movie is rejecting nihilism).
Yes the Villain says it, but no he is never proven or shown to be wrong. In fact when he tells Rey that her parents are no bodies and dead somewhere in the desert she whimpers for exactly 30 seconds (I timed it) and she is done. Nothing shows him as wrong. Luke does say the Jedi needs to end. And yes he does say the Jedi are reborn, to the villain whom he is trying to distract. But more that the Jedi is Rey a character that honestly isn't very interesting. Luke is portrayed this whole movie as this sad old man, in the end we see him as this weak old man who dies alone lightyears from those he cares about. He says the Jedi are reborn to the last known Darkside user who wanted to destroy the Jedi. So he has every reason to say that to piss off Kylo. Finn started Episode 7 wanting to run, he even nearly does during that movie but turns around and decides he wants to be there for his friend and that somethings are worth risking his life for. Then at the beginning of 8 he has regressed back to the same guy who just started episode 7. It was like they forgot they already did that story! Poe was a guy who even though he finished his mission was willing to risk death to save lives on Jakku when Kylo attacked that village. Poe in this throws away the lives of his men without seeming to care that he got more than half their fighters killed by disobeying an order from Leia. Does it make sense that the same guy who was willing to die for others callously throws away others lives just to get the W and get the glory? The movie preaches Nihilism, it is a deconstructive take on Star Wars. And to deconstruct is to destroy or take something apart. With the callous why he treated fans of the past there is just no reason to care about this movie or any future movies or series. The Last Jedi hammered viewers with the view that idolizing the past, or at least looking to the past for inspiration was wrong. That those ideals don't matter and those icons you looked up to are just pathetic old men. So Rey is just some chick why should I care what happens to her?
@26:00 I get the argument about Rian Johnson being backed into a corner. On the other hand: -Something has gone wrong with Luke's connection to the Force. He's become a danger to others and removed himself for their safety -Luke sensed that Kylo and Snoke were too powerful for him (somehow) and/or had some evil mystical artifact enhancing them, and has been on a quest for the macguffin that can stop them -There Force has been wounded; there is a terrible disturbance that threatens to unravel the entire galaxy. Luke is stuck here, healing the wound, lest the entire galaxy perish- and in agony, because he knows others need his help, too, and Han has died in his absence, but the entire galaxy will be threatened if he leaves. I thought all those up off the top of my head in thirty seconds, far shorter than it took to type. There were plenty of directions to take Luke being on that island... so the idea that he's given up and run away (and in fact CAUSED the problem of Kylo Ren and then abandoned all his loved ones to deal with it because he won't take responsibility for his own actions, which is my primary beef with the character of Luke and the entire movie) is the ONLY way Rian could have taken the ending of TFA is a false dichotomy. There were plenty of imaginative options. Having Luke turn his back on the galaxy was TLJ's intentional choice, not the only possible option left to them.
Dan *clap clap clap clap* im glad to see your true reaction comes out, and I appreciate it, cause everything you said is how i feel about TLJ, thank you Dan, thank you
Sorry Joe and Spencer but I agree with Dan where Rian essentially just gave everyone the middle finger in order to try and mix unsatisfiability of Game of Thrones with Empire Strikes Back and trying to make it funny with PG marketable toys. What made star wars great was the fact that the Jedi were all about Democracy and doing right by people where the Empire was a dictatorship who only wanted those within their own circle to prosper but this movies was a cluster of inconsistent timelines, forced humor, and inconsistent story telling as well as character assassinations and making Rey ridiculously overpowered without earning anything.
I loved this movie because it subverted my expectations of what a Star Wars movie could and should be. I also love getting hit by buses, because it subverts my expectations of safely traversing crosswalks.
They could have had Luke recovering from some fight with Snoke, where he thought Kylo was dead and abandoned him. Luke could have still been 'away' looking for some additional means of defeating Snoke, or Snoke could have simply used force sever on Luke, and Luke was trying to recover on ahch-to. This could even tie into the arc Luke already has, since we could see him attacking Snoke because "I'm Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" and losing everything because of it. It would have just taken a little more screen time. Those were off the top of my head. The argument that the Luke plot couldn't have been done any other way is just lazy.
here's my thoughts about Hodo: she was not a great leader. she was a failure. that was the point. of the entire movie. Yoda spelled it out quite on the nose. But she does get a redemptive moment, just like rest of the good guys, while the bad guys never learn from their failures and are unable to redeem themselves.
Ryan Johnson had a ton of choices other than what he went with. There were millions of Star Wars fans who walked out of the Force Awakened with great fan theories. What he did was just bad or inconsistent writing with what came before it. There is a difference between well written and fan service. The studio's job is to deliver the best product possible to the target audience. Luke could have removed himself from the conflict, started a new Jedi school, or even severed his connection to the force without changing any of the plot or backstory.
Can i just say, whether you liked or didn't like the casino part of the film, I would have thought that it would have been really great for when Rose says the thing about how the people there are awful it would have mirrored what Obi wan said in a New Hope - "wretched hide of scum and villainy". It would have provided two perspectives between who is scum and villainy, pretty cool i thought
The movie isn’t saying that the good side is meaningless and the Jedi are assholes etc. Some characters believe this, but they all come to realize that there is a right side and Luke himself says the Jedi are not over. And rey must come to see her idol as a human being and not a mythical legend. A really important lesson if you ask me, that also teaches you can make mistakes even after you’ve done great things and you can still do great things after you’ve made mistakes.
Loved this episode of Movie Fights 😄 but seriously amazing points on both sides. I have to disagree with the last point that Dan made. I think that what Rian did in TLJ, the world is a creative oyster for JJ. Instead of writing him into a corner, he blew open a whole universe of possibility. And if it was vital to establish Rey’s parentage as people other than drunkards, I believe that would have made its way into Rian’s script. Also with Snoke, if he was this amazingly important character, the powers that be at Lucasfilm would have had the final say. I really hope JJ in inspired from episode 8, because now Star Wars feels fresh and new.
My only real complaints with the movie were the casino plot thread and the payoff for Finn. Aside from that, I'm thrilled that Rian Johnson went in the direction he did with this movie. I understand why this movie upsets people, and I'm not going to sit here and say the Rey's parents reveal went over particularly well with me, but this and the other choices Rian made for the story of this movie all made sense to me after I put some thought into it.
It's entirely possible JJ Abrams was in on setting up a dramatic conclusion at the end of one movie only to deflate it at the start of the next. Go back and watch his TV series Alias. He did that all the time. Every season it was a gigantic reversal or subversion of expectations. The good guys were really bad guys. The bad guys were sometimes sort of good guys. In fact, there was even one episode in the second season where they set up what seemed like the major new direction of the show and even went as far as casting Rutger Hauer as the new big bad and changing the series intro to really show this was the new direction the series was going in. Only to reveal that the whole elaborate set up was a misdirect for another major twist and Rutger really only had that one time guest appearance.
Honestly I don’t even watch the honest trailers anymore I just come here for the banter. Love you guys, this is good stuff. The jokes and discussion are great! But I wish y’all would’ve talked a little bit about how bad of an enemy the first order is. It really kind of took the stakes out of the movie for me and made it somewhat disinteresting.
Kenneth Wright you can really enjoy and admit it wasn’t great. There are a lot of movies I love that I know aren’t great films. Plot holes and pacing issues make not a great movie.
That is an excuse nothing more. It can be used for ANY movie on the planet. It even makes it sound like you are saying that no movie on the planet is better or worse than TFA.
"Just Kidding she's a princess" -- That can actually still happen. We really only have the word of Kylo on that trying to manipulate Rey. There is no reason they can't change that in the future.
My problem with Dan’s argument isnt what he’s arguing. It’s that he’s coming from his position as if he’s misunderstood, which if the opposite. He elevates and shouts despite the fact that the two others next to him are calm. He for some reason feels to need argue against some fans online, and not engage the arguments of the people next to him. In my view, Spencer and Joe’s perspective on the film comes from understanding the other side because they like it due to the risk. It’s the forsaking of the mythology that makes the film more powerful, and thus inherently divisive. While Dan doesnt even appear to be able to consider the other perspective. He never says “I see what you are saying, but”... Spencer tries to make a joke, but Dan’s too serious to even let that fly. His argument is based on the idea that he knows what JJ was thinking and how Star Wars films are developed. He’s the embodiment of old Epic Movie Voice Guy. This reminds me or the argument between Jenny Nicholson and Scott Mance on Movie Fights. I think the calmer head allows for a better perspective, and nuanced conversation, so I hope Dan gets to be a little less serious in the future. I thought the honest trailer was great, probably some of their best work, but Dan seems to be fairly grumpy and exasperated when it comes to talking about popular mainstream films.
Yea he perfectly encapsulates people that hate TLJ. They piss and moan and act like they aren't understood while adamantly insisting that their very subjective opinion is objective fact. They are so invested in the head canon that they wrote over the past 40 years that they get personally offended when a movie chooses to zig where they would have zagged. Dan getting bent out of shape because the movie dares to suggest that the OT isn't perfect and shouldn't be worshipped as scripture is the perfect example of entitled fandom "ownership."
@DanMurrel, I really hope they don't entirely discard this movie with the third. If you think about it, the first movie was all about paying an homage to the original movies and the wonders of the Force and Jedi. This movie was little bit like Kyle Ren's final idea, discard the past, restart from scratch, kill it if you must, rawr. It is jarring and maybe it was meant to be a little jarring. If they play it smart, they will make a third movie that considers both ideas and finds a balance between them, a change to how things workr that still respect original ideals.
I genuinely do not think that this movie subverted what The Force Awakens set up. Can someone tell me how it did? The force bond was set up in the interrogation room, Maz told her that her parents were never coming back in the castle, luke was SAID to be finding the first jedi temple, but I don’t think he ever told anyone and he seemed too ashamed to tell Leia and Han didn’t even know about Snoke in TFA (“too much vader in him”). the jedi being terrible was set up in the prequels (by avoiding the dark side, their entire society toppled over. Rey is shown to embrace both sides because she needs both for example during the fight she is aggressive and embraces the dark calling to her but doesn’t accept kylo’s proposal). Maybe it’s cause I’ve seen the movie too many times but I just don’t see it as telling the audience that everything that happened before didn’t matter. Sure, Luke and Kylo both wanted to Let the past die, but at the end, Luke embraced his legend status to save the Resistance and Kylo ended up sad and alone even though he got what he wanted
Luke throwing his lightsaber was not that crazy. Think about it... he almost murdered his nephew in cold blood with it, it's not the same weapon he had in jedi. In the end he knows that it is not his way to kill so he doesnt aim to kill ben solo, he still has hope that his nephew has good in his heart so doesnt set out to kill him, just like he never gave up on his father darth vader. Sometimes it takes more strength to not use a lightsaber. think about the restraint luke must have in that moment, because you know he misses having that lightsaber but he doesnt want to jepordize who he is by poetentially making another mistake like almost killing ben
The green saber was the saber that Luke made after he lost the blue saber(empire, hand cut off) that was anakins but given to luke in new hope by obi wan.
BigHailFan i think it’s just that the humor feels more natural in 4 and especially in 5. For example, a lot of the humor in ESB comes from the dialogue, yet it doesn’t clash with the darker tone because it is well-written and well-delivered. ANH has some corny moments, but the overall tone of that film is lighter than in ESB, so it works. I realize that how people perceive tone can be a little subjective, so I apologize if I came off as forceful in my previous comment. I just think that there was a lot more care and attention to detail put into the tone of the first two films that makes it easier for the audience to know how the film wants them to feel from scene to scene
No Dan, Rian was on the set of TFA writing TLJ to keep the continuity and JJ made changes to TFA by request of Rian to fit Rian's script. Furthermore JJ liked Rian's script.
WHAT? even with all the boring scene in the phantom menace, it still had the BEST light saber fight, pod racing (yes i was a kid, and loved podracing), and overall cool ships and new badass bad guys. Last jedi felt like TV special made for netflix or amazon....
Let us know in the comments below what you thought and what you think next week's Honest Trailer will be! Thanks for watching!
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Jumanji or the greatest showman??
Hey guys, I’m a long time fan. I really enjoyed this episode because my instinctive response to this movie was relatively similar to Dan’s, but Joe and Spencer’s points of view injected new ways to think about this movie during this video’s discussion, ways that I had never heard before. So while Dan is a master at arguments (one might call him a master-debator 😉) I would like to congratulate and encourage the discussions that you have during these behind the scenes videos and to encourage Joe and Spencer to try and tackle Dan on his favored field of battle (long form rants) more often since I feel like 3 people can give more food for thought than one. Anyway I really want to thank everyone for their great work I love you guys.
In answer to Spencer's question of why else Luke could have ran away in the first place in Ep. 7...
He could have just given up. He watched his two mentors die, and the Jedi with them. He saved his father, only to watch him die too. He tried to save the Jedi with his school, but his own nephew becomes the next Vader. Luke could have just said, "There's nothing I can do. Maybe I'm only making it worse." Maybe he even questions the Prophecy and whether the Skywalker family is the villian of the story. I mean, the "Balance of the Force," did kill off all the Jedi and let the Empire win in Ep. 3. And even after Ep. 6, by Ep. 7, the Dark Side put in a New Order, while the Resistance can barely fight back. That's more than enough reasons for him to decide he's done trying to save the galaxy and failing.
Don't tell mom the babysitters dead or weird science
ScreenJunkies News hey guys i reconmend Maulers 3 part review of the last jedi if anyone needs in depth review of why it is terrible or voxis productions for a fun review.
YOU ARE WELCOME.
BEST COMMENT EVER
Worst comment ever..
Love your stuff please make more essay videos.
SHOTS FIRED.
Mr Sunday Movies My Man!
There are people who understand why some fans disliked the movie.
There are people who understand why some fans liked the movie.
Unfortunately, those mature, understanding fans are not the ones occupying comment sections and Twitter feeds.
Simple Answer I feel like “objectively terrible” applies to things that are known as being universally and unequivocally terrible, like terrorism and dogfighting, but sure dude :p
Simple Answer Not accusing you of being ridiculous dude. I said something about the movie with the intention of showing proper consideration of how both “sides” view the movie, and you commented with the intention of informing me that it’s just a terrible movie, despite some people or critics liking the movie and/or approving of its quality. This veered off from my point, which was that many people liked the movie, many people didn’t. If you believe it’s “objectively terrible” then okay, but invalidating the fact that it was a movie that many people may and have viewed as being a high quality or good movie doesn’t make for a sound discussion, or a respectful one. This debate will go on forever in that fashion with said attitude. Ultimately, it’s just a movie. You may think it’s terrible. Someone else might think it’s wonderful. Both are legitimate opinions, so long as they aren’t treated as indisputable fact. Ya feel me?
Simple Answer That’s not what I am saying. I never made the implication that opinions can’t be challenged. I actually coincided with that idea, because I said they shouldn’t be treated as indisputable FACTS. That’s all I was saying. And when it comes to movies, especially ones that don’t result in the response of a unanimous majority of people voicing in unison,”This movie is simply a bad movie”, we probably can both agree that objectivity is scarce, because they are forms of art, unless you’re like an actual critic (but who relies 100% on their reviews before watching a film). And then when taking into account the position of these franchises and their influence in pop culture, the line becomes even more blurred. But I never said opinions can’t be challenged. I’m not sure how else to emphasize my original point, which was supposed to address both sides of the fanbase/audience for what they are idealistically, without the meanness or toxicity of some in the community after the release of TLJ, and even 3 months later, interestingly. But anyway, I hope you have a nice day man. Imma go back to watching Parks and Rec :)
Came into this comment thread expecting to find a divisive twit using poor analogies to justify his/her opinion; was not disappointed.
Simple Answer mate , this guy is being entirely reasonable. It’s not the end of the world .
Video starts at 0:00
Jesse Smith R u sure i double checked i think it starts at 0:01
Jesse Smith actually the video starts at 35:13
Good looks bro
I love when Dan gets passionate about movies because he goes on tangents. His tangents are the highlight of these commentaries
Dan is the only logical one of the 3, Spencer is completely clueless
@DejaVoodooDoll You mean the message from Empire that was done infinitely better? Set up and executed in every conceivable way. So take away the on the nose failure message, a failure that was not given any set up or hardly any explanation for, you're left with this nihilistic point of everything sucks. Luke's logic was so incredibly flawed. Just because he decided to denounce the Jedi doesn't mean the Sith just stops being evil but the movie wants me to believe that Luke believed that and that's why he gave up? Luke was cool not being there to help his friends and family?
I miss Dan’s tangential musings with the panel. I’d like to call them Dangents
" I don't think anyone was comparing it to the prequels"
You haven't seen nothing
"The Phantom Menace is a masterpiece compared to Ruin Johnson's The Last Jedi", or something along those lines. Some people have really lost it.
The Best Character Development of The Last Jedi is the Chewbacca's conflict with eating the Porgs.
Hes kinda the only character that stayed true to his narrative XD
He’s still a murderer of Porgs and never repents. #JusticeforMamaPorg
LtdEcho but that meant nothing memorable about him in this movie (that being said thank God they didn't kill him or something else)
He finally got a hug from Leia...
He should’ve been allowed to eat the porg
Without taking a side.. nothing I've ever watched by JJ makes me think that he actually has a plan.
Agreed! Nor was the original Star Wars trilogy planned out...
This is true. In his Mission Impossible 3, we never find out what the Rabbit’s Foot actually is, even though it is the macguffin and main focus for the entire plot of the movie. Or, when he does have a plan it’s literally so obvious that fans can guess what it is ahead of time and he lies about it to maintain the “surprise” (ie: Cumberbatch was not Khan until he did end up being Khan anyway)
Yeah, I don't really like JJ. For how poised and methodical Kathleen seems to be, I'm surprised that she doesn't or didn't have a better plan for her directors to follow.
I mean maybe the approach they took was “this is beginning, and this is how it ends. How we get there is up to you when you write the script, but that’s where we need to end up.” The problem with that is you’ll end up with massive disparities between plot points like what happened in 7 and 8. What’s important to one director may not be as important to another. I just hope JJ doesn’t circle back around to his stuff that he set up and redo it, because like it or not, Rian already dealt with it, and it would be like we’re retreading the same ground. Keep moving the characters forward and it should be ok.
swidly that’s because they never knew they would even have the means to make a sequel to Star Wars. George had outlines/treatments (that were vastly altered to accommodate the trilogy, sure)
But Disney is a multi billon dollar company, it’s honestly silly for them not to have Lawrence kazdan or some other accomplished screenwriter at least write a script treatment for this trilogy, where things should end up. They’re literally just making it up as they go. Even George knew more or less where he wanted his characters to end up.
Is this a secret movie fights episode also?
I really appreciate Dan calling out people being obtuse when faced with arguments against TLJ. I ultimately liked it but I hated I couldn't call anything out without someone saying "you just can't handle change!"
That's because people find it very hard to respect people for having different opinions than anybody else.
As always, I agree with Dan.
I think the problem with The Last Jedi is not that it subverts expectations, but the way it subverts them.
The execution of the events is where the movie is weak.
IMO, the themes and message need to be a little more thought-out too...
Agree
Had to add for alternative options as was challenged. Small changes to the story I think could have helped.
Luke left for the island because he is seeking the temple to find a different way to end the conflict not using violence. He afterall, lost friends, defeated the empire and the fighting still raged on. The imbalance in the force is causing this conflict in his mind. He did not cut himself off from the force, but has been researching and mediating. He is handed the light saber, and instead of chucking it, he hands it back and says "this is not going to solve anything." He hands it back to Rey. It would show honor to the past as he is leaving it worth, but also shows that he has grown.
This allows the next part of the Rey/Luke conflict to not be about whether she gets trained, but whether she agrees with his philosophy that armed fight won't solve anything. She can hold that if Luke was around than Han might be alive. Luke can counter with everyone who he has lost in the fight and how the first order just came back around even after the empire was beat. It puts his statement that he can't stand with a light saber in front of the the First Order in better context. Less about nihilistic of life, and more about loss of faith in approach.
When she leaves to fight, Luke can at least be confronted by Yoda about how sitting on a planet won't solve anything -- Yoda should know after all. Yoda tells Luke that if violence is not the way to solve this problem than neither is complacency. Luke needs to learn from Yoda's mistakes and do anything that gives people hope (apparently, all themes in these movies come back to hope even when I'm typing them).
Luke finds a solution to fight without fight without violence -- the force projection distraction. Then add a few ending shots not just some kids talking about Luke Skywalker's defeating the First Order, but show Luke's tale being told in bars, on ships etc. This would end the movie with the hope that the rebellion will keep growing despite the loss of so much. Finally, it also shows Rey that there may be solutions to this conflict without violence, but not necessarily without loss. It sets up a conflict for her in the last movie.
Overall, I liked the Last Jedi, but I feel like the ideas could have been improved slightly to just fit in with the Universe a little more.
Just one person's thoughts responding to the Speny-G's challenge.
Can we all just appreciate how good the visuals were in this movie? Not to discredit the plot holes and discrepancies with TFA, but this movie was visually stunning especially in the third act. The battle on Crait, the throne room, and the destruction of the star destroyer were all especially well shot.
Yeah, there's a reason this earned an Oscar nomination for Best Visual Effects.
I don't know Dan, you say that the movie is saying "everything sucks" but I mean by the end Luke says "I will not be the last Jedi" showing that it's a bit of a reaffirmation of the Jedi. They may have to change, but the Jedi should still be around.
The movie itself never said the Jedi are wrong. Luke Skywalker did. It's like if a villian believes the world must die. The movie doesn't say that. The villian did.
THANK YOU.
The central theme of this movie is that everything that went before sucks/is stupid/must die. The fallen hero of the original trilogy says it for 90% of the movie, relics are thrown away/destroyed, the main villain of the two new movies says it explicitly, the wise mentor of the OT says it, anyone can now use the force at will... Besides writing it explicitly on the screen, I don't see what else the movie could do to highlight this message for you.
Pete H But he disagrees with himself in the end, and Finn rejects DJ's ideas, and Rey doesn't join up with Kylo. The movie brings up the idea a bunch of different ways, but rejects it in the end in all of those ways.
Also, what relics are destroyed?
because Luke is the villian
Pete H the theme is failure. It's demonstrated by literally every character but Kylo and he suffers from not learning from his faliure
I honestly don't understand how the takeaway people are getting from The Last Jedi is that everything doesn't matter and needs to die. That's Kylo's belief: "let the past die, kill it if you have to." But clearly he's in the wrong - the message of the movie by the end is that you do have to move on from the past, but still honor it and learn from it.
First, that wasn't just Kylo's message, it was also Luke's message...AND apparently Yoda's message, too.
Second, while I might agree with the message that you have to move on from the past, the movie does a terrible job of conveying this by making every other scene a blatant rip-off of the past movies--scenes, situations, characters, dialogue, etc.....TLJ stole more bits from the OT than any other chapter in the saga.
Third, Rey is one of the worst people to take this message to heart, given that she knows nothing of the past to learn from (insofar as the Jedi are concerned). Two weeks earlier, she was an orphaned scavenger on an impoverished world who thought Luke and the Jedi were just some fictional fairy tale and she didn't know what the Force was. What was she supposed to learn from a history she knows nothing about and a teacher who won't teach her?
Personally, I always thought/hoped that would be the direction Luke would go if they ever made a sequel to ROTJ. Even back in the 80's, it seemed clear to me that if Luke was to recruit new Jedi Knights, he would have to start from scratch and build a new order in his own image. Luke was the product of the last of the old Republic Knights, but also a son of a Sith dark lord. If there was ever ANYBODY positioned to learn from the mistakes of the past, it was Luke. Yoda literally tasked Luke with moving forward in his own way.
After the prequels, I really hoped that a future movie would show Luke Skywalker teaching students about how to BALANCE both the light and the dark within them. To study the ways of the Jedi, but also to learn from the mistakes of the Jedi Order who basically shunned all emotions and passions, while also guarding against the excesses and hatred of the Sith.
Because that's what life is about, isn't it? Not all light, not all dark. Balance. The Jedi are as unbalanced as the Sith. Both take their philosophies to the extremes. Luke beat Vader when he tapped into his anger, but then reigned it back in. Luke is the product of both and survived only because he could master them within his self.
We all have both. I thought that not only would have been a great story for an audience, but that Luke would be the perfect teacher for it (and someone who fails/refuses to control the balance within them would be the perfect villain)
Or at least something along those lines.
Instead we got.....what? Even the producers don't know what these movies are doing.
Brian Schwartz All of these movies (prequels and sequels) had so much wasted potential. Maybe some day they’ll Snyder cut them all. 😅
Boo to people who skip. The opening comment are always my favorite part!
I dislike the last Jedi but what I dislike more is that there are people that sees you as sexist, fanboy, failed theorizer, nostalgia baby, or simply hated of anything new. There are legitimate plot holes that ruin the movie for me and poor characters writing. For me this movie felt like a life-action tv episode instead of a movie. There are several miss opportunities that episode 7 left and were unused or simply discharged and that pains me because this could have had a lot of potential.
Is that what Spencer and Joe are arguing? Why not engage what they said rather than arguing into the void against the commenters that aren’t in this video?
This comment sounds like an excuse to just hate on the movie. I agree that calling people a "nostalgia baby" or "hater" is not a mature thing to do, but you do realize that there are plenty of people who bash on those who actually loved this movie. You should include both sides of the argument.
Is not really the viewers that annoy me. Is more the producers, reviewers, and some actors that said blame things on the fans that bothers me. For example Daisy Ridley was asked about the Mary sue comments for Rey and she said that calling her that is sexist. Some producers blame the poor reception of the movie to the people theorizing, and a few reviewers said that the movie was great and those who disliked it was because they are closed minded cause of nostalgia. Aside it pains me seeing Mark Hamill so obviously being shut on his opinions by Disney.
I saw this movie with questions in my mind, I was dissatisfied with the answers the movie gave me and ignored. As simply as that. Visuals were very good thou.
Feckin THIS
Great comment and exactly true, you are allowed to dislike the movie if you think the movie is bad. Just like you could with any other movie.
This is definitely the 4th best Honest Trailer Commentary ever.
PaleBlueDot Top 3?
The Last Jedi was a good movie. Maybe not a popular opinion here, but for me it already holds up better than The Force Awakens
I felt exhausted for Dan. You could feel his frustration again. He is right: Spencer kept countering with ridiculous statements as if they were they only options. It happened during the last discussion. It was like a smart kid trying to assemble a humble structure out of blocks and Spencer just kept kicking them over jokingly, and no-one got anywhere. It's not enjoyable to watch debates like these anymore. I hope that Spencer strikes a better balance of being funny and being more reasonable.
I wasn't a fan of the film, but it's not because I'm a purist who didn't want anything to change or whatever. It's not what you do, but HOW you do it. For me, most of the major plot points were jarring at almost every turn - and not in a good way. The only twist I liked was that Rey's parents were nobodies. On another note, I recently saw The Fallen Knight fan edit, and liked it better than TLJ. I recommend it to those who didn't like the original movie. A lot of bad things were cut out.
Anyway, stay strong, Dan!
Thanks, Dan. For voicing your frustrations with the film (the overwhelming majority of which I share) in a civil way but also without backing down, especially starting at 15:15. I don't know how hard it is for you to say stuff like that without fully giving in to your frustration, but I think it's commendable that you critique it without getting angry with Joe or Spencer on a personal level but also sticking to your viewpoint. Critiquing the overt, excessive nihilism and the overuse of attempted "subversion" often gets shut down in discussions (much like Joe and Spencer attempted at some points, and as you noted). It feels really tin-foil-hat-y, but sometimes (not all the time) it feels like most everyone else on the panel is just making sure they don't get ostracized for "wrong think" while living in an often PC-obsessive California and working in the entertainment industry.
I don't know that I would detach myself like you do, so thank you Dan. For carrying yourself in such a respectable fashion, conversing with both civility and conviction.
Acerbium GD, I know I’m replying to this a year later, but I 100% agree with everything you typed.
I'm with Joe and Spencer on this one. I also recognize that Last Jedi didn't deliver the most streamlined and cohesive story and that it had a few hitches along the way, but I see the intent to create something a bit more complex and unexpected behind it, so I love Rian Johnson for that. This movie had great action scenes, the highs were really high, and I don't think Dan's argument of "It's too nihilistic" really holds considering this movie ends on a very hopeful note and virtually no one dies in the end. Again, I can totally empathize with why old fans wouldn't love this movie, but this is one of my favorite Star Wars movies thus far.
How on earth does it end on a hopeful note? The Resistance is now comprised of a couple dozen people on a single freighter, all their allies have abandoned them, Luke is dead, the First Order seems to have an endless amount of troops and resources, etc. I mean, the entire Resistance could now be killed by a single squadron of TIE fighters, and that's hopeful???
I respect Dan so much for having the capacity to consider both sides with complexity. It is easy to cast aside opposing views because they don't agree with yours, to consider them shows real intellectual maturity.
Meanwhile, on planet earth, Spencer is the one who can understand both sides and presents his views in a calm and reasonable manner, while Dan refuses to accept that people who like the film will not agree with him
Dan’s the one that raises his voice and gets animated at nothing, while Spencer and Joe calmly discuss the movie like friends.
Spencer is making jokes to diffuse the tension, not mocking them. And the only reason he says "fans aren't experts" is because it's ironic Star Wars fans are complaining about good writing when the original trilogy arguably had a ton of writing inconsistencies as well. It's not like he's unable to see both sides of the argument, it's that he thinks there are more good things to the Last Jedi than bad things.
I also personally enjoy Spencer's optimistic arguments more by the way. I tend to nitpck as well, but it gets so tiring when people just focus on the negative stuff and want to argue the shit out of you.
I agree so much with Dan about The Last Jedi. He pretty much summed up how I feel about the film.
Simon James Dan is seriously the only reason I stay subbed to screenjunkies
I agree, I ranged from cringe to lukewarm during my theatre sitting, and mostly had issues with the narrative -- much like Dan. I'm disappointed that the Honest Trailers basically took the stance that if you didn't like the movie, you are a butthurt fan boy. There are completely valid criticisms of the movie that didn't even get mentioned and would normally be ripped on in an honest trailer.
totally agree with Dan, I could watch him talk about TLJ for hours!
Dan absolutely nailed this one. Having genuine issues with this movie is perfectly valid and it doesn't deserve the patronizing responses it gets from those who can't see any flaws in the movie. Spencer gave a prime example of this in the video when Dan correctly identified the lightsaber toss as the perfect analogy for people's dislike of the movie. You can understand what the movie was trying to do and still not like it or the way it does it. Countering with silly arguments makes your position look weak, not the other side.
Being different is fine, and subverting some expectations is great, but when you're so completely different just to be different, and totally ignore and disrespect everything that has gone before, you've basically made a movie that screams "f**k you" at the people who loved this franchise and that's why it is so divisive.
Also, shout out to Dan for mentioning Luke calling his lightsaber a "laser sword". One of the many things that irked me watching the movie. He was a Jedi Grand-master, he'd know what it was called.
As someone who personally loves this film, I agree with this sentiment. People should be able to share their perfectly valid criticisms without being patronized for it. However, the same can also be said for people who liked the movie sharing what they loved about it and discussing why they felt the writing decisions worked. What's a positive point for one person can be a negative point for another person and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem with the discussion as things stand now is that both sides are looking down on each other and saying "You're objectively wrong" or, "you have a garbage opinion". I don't know which side threw the first stone here, but there's plenty of blame on both sides for why the discussion has gotten so bad.
The prequels weren't even that bad you exaggerate
Dan is on point with all the gripes people have with the movie. There's a reason why there's such a divide; because it was a lackluster movie with tonal inconsistencies.
"I guess everyone is now an expert on story development and character arcs". Spencer hit the nail on the head with that one.
Can someone please tell me again why Rey is a part of this war, at all? Besides being force sensitive and just there what else does she really have going for her that contributes to her motivation?
What a cop out bs argument. You do not have to be an expert to recognise crappy writing.
Just not rian Johnson apparently
Experts made this crap......
Even kids will think Luke doesn't act like Luke does. Heck even Mark Hamill said so.
This movie to me is like watching the superbowl and then suddenly a horse is used in the last play and I'm sitting there confused and everyone is talking about how cool it was, how awesome it looked and how it was subversive and therefore amazing.
...and I'm just sitting there wondering what happened to the rules?
David Lol exactly. It's makes no freaking sense!
That makes complete sense
Is like the end of karate kid. There was a rule saying "No kicks to the face" but our hero won with a kick to the face. So I guess as long as it serves it purpose you can bend the rules for our heroes.
If it's so logical, why not do the suicide run with autorun? No one needed to sacrifice themselves. "But you don't know if that's even possible or not! Maybe someone needs to pilot the ship(by himself? lol)", in that case, you don't know why no one has done a suicide run before.. you think it's logical but it can be reasons why... like it ruins the whole point of building a ship larger then a frigate.....
Mark it zero! ;)
When you have to turn down the volume because Dan's yelling
Right?!
So when's Dan and Spencer gonna duke it out on movie fights again? This seemed like a good set-up with all that back-and-forth LOL
Sab I actually want to see Dan argue his point against Jenny Nicholson. Jenny was very resilient in her views against Scott Mance, who didnt like the film, and I think her arguing against Dan would be more conducive to producing a thought provoking discussion.
This is not going to go the way you think. Yup that pretty much tells how this movie played out.
I'm heavily on dan's side
Same.
Me too ^^
He was holding back so much this episode. You can see him clenching his teeth while the trailer was playing
I would have been perfectly happy with them subverting expectations, but not with literally every beat of the movie. My biggest complaint was Luke throwing the lightsaber, because there were ways to get across that he had given up on the Jedi without that moment being comical. I didn't hate this movie, but I also didn't love it. I only saw it once and I saw the prequels each at least twice in the theater.
I'm heavily on NOT Dan's side
I'll say one thing: I'm glad they killed Snoke. Not from a storytelling perspective, but I just hate everything about that character's design. I don't think there is a single positive thing that I can say about him. Good riddance.
Until you realise Darth Emo is now in charge, and we got a little hint at how terrible THAT will be with his acting in Crait's battle (totally ridicilous). "Waaah, all fighters on ship. Waaaah, all guns on master. Waaaaah, waaaaah."
What an intimidating interesting main villain. I wonder if Rey will manage to beat him a third time around, the suspension is KILLING ME.
But Anakin wasn't the villain. If he was, those movies would have been much much worse.
Dan the man!
To Dan's point that people don't seem to be able to understand why so many people dislike the movie, I really don't think that's the case. I've seen more people outright bashing others on the internet for "daring" to enjoy the movie, and I myself have been staying away from such discussions in fear of being told I'm wrong. It's been virtually impossible for me to say ANYTHING positive about the movie without being yelled at (even after admitting that I see its flaws) soooo just saying. :)
What Ive come to understand about Star Wars fandom, is that everyone makes his own SW, each one of us chooses what they like about it and get rid of what we dont like, and from there we make our own SW universe with the rules and canon we make sense of the most.
I agree with dan. But I really appreciate the approach of taking different perspectives and respecting all sides.
Speaking to Dan's point about the film's nihilism...
I really think there's nuance he either doesn't notice (unlikely) or notices but maybe undervalues (more likely). Finn's journey is about the film offering him escapes from the Resistance/First Order fight. The gamblers themselves stay outside of the conflict altogether, the profiteers try to make bank off both sides at the same time, and DJ volleys between both sides, doing whatever keeps him alive. The film specifically has Finn say, "You're wrong" to DJ about his choice to help the First Order, to which he can only ofter a limp "Maybe," right before his choice to rat on Finn and Rose results in nearly the entire Resistance getting killed.
(Despite the many people blaming the deaths in the Resistance on Finn/Rose, we have to agree that DJ is the person most directly responsible for what occurs. He builds their trust by helping them escape CB, helps them further by breaking the code, earns their trust even further by returning Rose's necklace... and then he turns his back on them and sells out an entire fleet to save his own skin. He's the worst possible version of Han Solo in "A New Hope.")
Quickly, Luke's dispassion for the past Jedi, I didn't take as some sort of bleak nihilism. In truth, he's relating something the Prequels were trying to relate (maybe they failed for some), which was that the Jedi *were* impotent, they *did* fail to see the rise of Sidious, and in fact their downfall was portrayed at least partially as a consequence of their own hubris. Not for nothing that Yoda says "Failed, have I" at the end of *Revenge of the Sith*. Not for nothing that Obi-Wan says, "I have failed you, Anakin." Luke's read of the Republic's fall is incomplete but totally compatible with the Prequels. The rest of his nihilistic dark night of the soul we can chalk up to grief, and the film is at pains to show us that this is a prison of his own making.
tl;dr - The film offers nihilistic characters with nihilistic solutions, but I really don't think the film itself defends that nihilism or considers it valid. It tests that nihilism, but every hero tested by it rejects it in favor of the moral cause of the Resistance's fight against the totalitarianism of the First Order.
PS: I'm empathetic to Dan being frustrated with fanboys saying "Kill the past." First off, anyone saying that's the actual message of the film wasn't paying attention. The *villain* of the film says to kill the past. Luke regains his humanity and heroism only after he makes peace with his past and the past of the Jedi and takes up the mantle he swore off. Rey even saves the books (although she avoids Luke's tendency to enshrine them, which is key). The film's actual message is *learn* from the past - don't retreat from it, but don't be too reverential either. Second off, a single late-film declaration by Kylo should not forgive a series entry for every way it breaks with formula if those breaks aren't satisfying viewers on a narrative level. Clearly they aren't for Dan, so simply re-stating that line comes off like that meme about "Actually you need a high IQ to understand..."
People continue to have this belief that TLJ was saying that the past (Jedi, Skywalkers, legends) sucked, but it wasn't. It was simply asking that question with different characters set up on each side of the question. Rey vs. Luke and Kylo, Rose vs. DJ with Finn in the middle. I don't think the film comes out on the side of Luke and Kylo at all. Rey preserves the ancient knowledge, Luke becomes the hero the galaxy remembers, the Jedi don't die. How is that in any way a concession to Kylo's "Let the past die" or Luke's "It's time for the jedi to end"? For many fans, it was a hard question to think about, and they checked out before the movie had finished exploring the issue fully.
Because Rey stole the books. Yoda destroys the Tree and lets Luke think that the books are there. With those books gone the Jedi order is gone. Luke makes his last stand believing that the order is gone. Sure he is not going to be the last Jedi but the Jedi are not going to be the same things. A Knight today means a lot different than what it used to and so will the future Jedi. So the movie tries to have its cake and eat it too. It saves the books meaning Rey will learn and teach from the Old Way but has the former hero of the story go out thinking he is the last of the old guard and making personal peace with that lie.
I think your interpretation is a bit cynical. He doesn't know that Rey has the books, sure, but that doesn't mean that Rey is going to have a dogmatic approach to the Jedi religion, and won't let her own beliefs influence her understanding and practice of the religion. She saved the knowledge, but to say that Luke is making peace with a lie is just wrong. The Jedi will change, exactly how will probably be more clearly defined by JJ in IX. Luke/Mark Hamill is, at this point, literally the last of the old guard, but he firmly believes that the Jedi will continue, though they will be in Rey's image. Where exactly is the lie in that?
You can't have it both ways.
Either Rey saving the Jedi text is in fact to indicate that she will be continuing the Jedi Order as it was with her own personal beliefs tinting it here and there (No doubt Luke's did as well). Or the Order is dead and what exist next will just be something called a Jedi but have no real connection to the roots of the original order.
Luke is the last of the Jedi, proper, Kylo likely will die. If he doesn't he will be the Last Jedi. Rey is not a Jedi. She knows nothing of them except vague fairy tales and she has a few worn out books. Kylo was trained under the principles and ideals of the Jedi. If Kylo dies then the Jedi Order as it existed for thousands of years will be dead.
Rey can create a new order and call it the Jedi Order. But it wont be the Jedi Order. She has none of the training, none of the philosophy of those teachings and scant few books to look it from. So either she makes it up as she goes along with some vague understanding of what the fuck the Jedi were preaching about. Or she buckles down and learns the Jedi way and fills in tiny missing fragments with her own beliefs. If she does the latter she is more or less just keeping the old jedi order alive on life support till she dies and books are lost or destroyed. If she makes her own order than she is just taking the name Jedi to use for her own uses. But Luke and Kylo are the Last Jedi in that sense.
The video starts at 8:51! Skip to this part ;) 21:21 might interest you aswell =D
I clapped when you timestamped!
obviously i've watched the entire thing, it is just a joke comment to satisfy the three so that they have their expected comment :D
They’re self-aware.
LukeDuke309 Very cool that you clapped. Very cool.
Click 8:51 - "Welcome to those of you who said skip to this time code" ....Uhhh Hi Dan....
The commentary was more devisive than the trailer 😂
RedLetterMedia reference... Veeerrry cooool
I Claped!!!!
I know this joke! More HACK FRAUDS referencing HACK FRAUDS!
Oohhhh mmmyyyyyyýy ggoooooodddd !!!
When they said “very cool” I knew what that was and I clapped!!!
*Voy Coouage.
I agree that Kylo's quote is over used and incorrect. Luke's quote, " This is not going to go the way you think." has lot of application and use no matter which side your talking to.
Of course it's applicable b/c, since the audience has been given no context clues since The Force Awakens (just to preserve J.J. Abram's s***ty "mystery box"), no one knows what way this franchise is going!
I completely understand Dan's point of view, but I completely agree with Spencer. Overall, it was a great discussion.
I don't think the movie said jedis suck and we nee to get rid of them. It's Luke who says that. But it comes from a place of pain and fear. Luke's feelings are not necessarily an absolute, universal truth. We saw him as an infallible hero. But he still is human and therefore not perfect. Luke's journey is actually to make peace with himself, the force and the jedis. That's why i also like his "death". He doesnt die in agony. He comes to terms with himself and becomes one with the force.
also: really liked this honest trailer. it was a tricky one. good job guys!
Except that combine that with "Kill the Past" sort of comes off heavy handed. Yes Luke being down in the dumps makes sense but damn if it doesn't beat you over the head calling you an idiot for being a fan.
Almighty Kue
I do understand why you would interpret it that way. I'm just saying I never felt like that when I watched the film. I see those statements as expression of those characters in those specific situations, not as a universal truth or the overall message of the movie. Maybe it is because I'm relatively young and I didn't really grow up in a star wars era... but for me those traditional themes are not that sacred (i love star wars, don't get me wrong). This movie actually gave me something deeper to connect to because it felt more real, more human, beautifully flawed and therefore more close to home.
See I don't see that. I don't see anything deeper there to connect to. It just seems like contrived writing to me. You have characters with serious issues. Rey who is untouchable, unbeatable, and completely unrelatable (At least to me). You have Poe and Fynn either factory resetting to who they were at the beginning of the last movie or acting in conflict with what they did in the past.
Almighty Kue I totally understand that. I can only tell you what connects for me. Rey for me is reflecting the viewer. She is in many ways a "fan" of luke. She heard the old stories, idolizes him. It's what gave her hope, drove her when she had noone. Now she finds out that not everything is as glorious as told. People are just people who try their best. Not everything is black and white, good and evil. And most importantly she has to find her own way. That's pretty relateable to me. Also I think where she comes from is what makes her so strong.
For Poe i don't really care that much. didn't get much from him in the force awakens. that didn't change here.
And finn who comes from a place where you have to follow orders not necessarily be brave or strong, who struggles with standing up for anybody meets someone (Rose) who shows him that there are bigger things worth figthing for.
The sacrifice cop out I'm split on. The sacrifice would habe been a way stronger scene but I feel like we still need Finn as a character. He is in many ways the common man.
That was not the message of the film! Its not that everyone sucks and the past must die, its that these are normal human beings and that you should not live in the past but put it in context and learn from it.
When Luke put the past in context, he learned that it was better to walk away from it, thereby putting the fate of the galaxy in jeopardy...
Thank u Dan for not fanboying out. Keep being a professional
Yes, Dan, thanks for yelling for people to get off your lawn, you are the best grumpy grandpa
Dan was doing his best to acknowledge the validity of the arguments of favor of the movie while also trying to state his case as to what people didn't like about it, and I could feel his frustration at the other two actively trying to de-legitimize every single negative opinion he had. There was a lot of quality filmmaking on display in this movie to be perfectly honest, but the story and dialogue were objectively bad, like, worse than the prequels bad.
It was rough I couldn’t even make it past 5 mins
I think we broke Dan
Dan, i love you! The way you described, how people who defend this movie argue was on point.
Spencer, what did Luke do on the island: He studied the ancient jedi texts in hopes to find a way to eliminate the dark side, he either realized it couldnt be done and got so desperate that he lost all hope or he got so sidetracked and lost in the old texts that he forgot what he came there for in the first place. So Rey would have to bring him back fom that. - He took his students who survived Kylos betrayal there to finish their training far away from snokes influence and just wasn't quiet ready yet. - He wanted to meditate on his failures to ensure he does not make the same mistakes again and wasn't quiet ready yet. He just recently got there, like maybe one or two years ago, studied the texts, but then his X-Wing got destroyed in some storm and he is figuring out how to leave the planet. - He studied the texts, established connections to the old jedi masters as force ghosts, they told him he is not the one to finish this fight, but some young woman who is going to come to him, way stronger in the force than anyone before, to learn the jedi ways. - Turns out the old texts are really hard to understand and he needed the help of former masters to grasp it, and wasen't quiet ready yet. - He thought the island was an ancient jedi temple, but it was a place of the dark side, which corrupted his mind and made him leave everything behind, so Rey would have to bring him back from that. - He was developing some new form of lightsaber combat, force power, philosophy, but wasen't quiet ready yet. - He felt such raw strengh in Kylo, that he was shure he couldn't take him on, so he went into hiding to figure out a way to stop him, and then this amazingly strong in the force woman comes along. - He lost the keys to his X-Wing and couldn't find them, because the nun creatures had hidden them for a laugh (wouldn't have been worse then what we got)
These were just some things i made up for the most part while writing this. And remember i am not a professional visionary genius like Ryan fucking Johnson. I had no story written in my head as i saw the movie, i deliberatly didn't fan fiction out before. The only thing i didn't want was for Luke to be killed of senslessly, just so we can put the new characters in the forefront. What i saw then was not what i suspected, true, but was for the most part just terrible shit. And the statement that these movies are so much better then what we got in the past is invalid, because it leaves out the OT, you know, the original trillogy, have you heard about those?
A monumental undertaking to even tackle this film, guys. Well done, and I enjoyed the spirited debate.
Just wanted to say I really liked the way you guys did the Honest Trailer, and this really- civilized, ya know, so that gives me the hope I was missing, I guess. Lol.
I have not yet seen a review or anything for the last jedi that deals with the fact the "laser cannonballs" have an arch. In space.
That's because nobody cares. This is Star Wars, not Star Trek.
An ad played literally when y'all were like "aaaaaand....now". Just like the start of an actual video. It was too perfect
I liked this episode of movie fights, glad they went back to the three fighter format.
I love angry Dan.
Fun Fact: The Original Star Wars Trilogy was UNPLANNED!!! The Luke and Leia kiss? And then they are brother and sister. That's the opposite! That's jarring!
I'm 100% Team Spencer. I didn't think the rug was pulled out at all.
Okay, I can understand why some people would be upset that the heroes they grew up loving didn't get the happy ending they initially thought, and that's completely reasonable. But the idea that the movie is somehow trying to tell you that all the things you love suck is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the movie was trying to say. It's not about forgetting the past, but embracing it. It's about celebrating the good things you did and learning from what you did wrong. Luke throws his lightsaber away, showing how he was devaluing all the great things he accomplished in his life because of one mistake that had horrible consequences. He resented his status as a legend, because he didn't feel he deserved it. However, after seeing the way those stories affected Rey and heeding the wise words of his former mentor, he later embraces that status (represented by the taking up of the same blue lightsaber he discarded at the beginning) and uses it as a spark to bring hope back to the galaxy after it appeared as though they had none left. The one saying "Kill the past" is Kylo Ren. He's the villain of the story and the film goes out of its way to show that HE IS WRONG. He believes that you need to forget the past in order to move on, and he suffers for it at the end. In TFA, he sticks a sword through his father's chest, it tears him apart emotionally and gets him destroyed physically. In TLJ, he tries the same thing, obviously not learning from the past he wants to destroy, and it's what allows the Resistance to escape and results in his humiliation in front of the military he just gained control of. The legend of Luke Skywalker lived on and was celebrated, while Kylo Ren was left all alone, as symbolized by the dice fading from his hand. It's deep and challenging stuff that you wouldn't get from a usual generic blockbuster film like Justice League. It's fine and completely acceptable to dislike the movie because you don't like the idea of Luke becoming an old hermit that hates himself and wants to die for most of the runtime. But please stop trying to act like this film actively insulted you, because that really wasn't Rian Johnson's intension. I feel like in a few years, when the anger has died down, people will take a step back and be able to appreciate The Last Jedi as the beautifully crafted, albeit flawed, film it really is.
Didn't hate it, didn't love it. Needs more Paddington in it.
Paddington always makes things better.
I must know this inside joke
Dan finally revealed what he really thinks about this movie
The point of the movie wasn't that everything and everyone sucks and we should get rid of the past. That's what some of the characters are saying, but they're proven wrong. The point of the movie is that we aren't the past, we can't and shouldn't pretend we are. We need to understand and learn from the past, but live separately in our own way. And everything in the movie reinforces that. Poe makes decisions that in any other Star Wars movie would have succeeded, Finn and Rose's mission would have made it at the hair's breadth from destruction in any other film. But it didn't because these aren't the old films, they're new and they're their own thing. And I liked that Finn and Rose failed on teaming up with DJ because it shows you how badly things could have gone when Luke and Obi-Wan teamed up with Han. If Han hadn't secretly been a good person at heart and had some amount of morals (and a dislike of the Empire) then their trip to the Death Star would have gone a lot differently. They got lucky. And that's the point, not everyone gets lucky. People fail, but we continue to grow and learn and we don't give up, there's always hope.
On a related note, I just finished a marathon of the original and prequel trilogies and the same amount of rebels, if not more, get killed in some of the stunts they pull as the one Poe tried at the beginning. And he would have grown up on those stories. We, and Leia, like to pretend it didn't happen, but it absolutely did
well said. the only thing i really hated was the admiral not telling poe the plan, caused so much unnecessary trouble
Yeah shame Dan doesn't get it (sorry Dan!). The point isn't everyone sucks and it's all meaningless. TLJ breaks it all down because it's trying to get back to the core of 'what is a hero?' What does it really mean to be a Jedi? What is the resistance/rebellion really fighting for? And by the end of the movie, we know the answer. That's why I thought the 'subversiveness' and 'unexpectedness' paid off. Spencer & Joe nailed it.
This idea that subverting the expectations doesn't hold up for everything.
If the next movie opens with Rey walking down the ramp from the Falcon, tripping, and snapping her neck as she rolls down the ramp. It would be a major subvert to your expectations. But would it be good storytelling? I don't think so, but clearly subverting for the sake of subverting is awesome.
But this movies preach about forgetting the past. To stop looking to it for inspiration or ideals. And to a lot of fans it was almost making fun of them for their love of the series and stories it tells. When you make a fan feel like you are attacking them its natural for them to become defensive.
The Last Jedi's mantra was "Forget the past, kill it if you have to." well The Last Jedi is not in the past. After Episode 9 Rey will be in the past meaning watching these movies is pointless. The movie is telling us not to idolize these characters we grew up with, but to idolize this new chick who has been involved for 2 weeks. But following the logic of the film why should we give a damn about Rey? Why should we give a damn about the Resistance/Rebellion? None of it matters according to The Last Jedi.
Because doing good things and fighting for what you believe in even if it means giving your life doesn't matter. Thats not the way to be a hero thats the way to be a fool. That is what is offending people.
Btw, ask a soldier why they fight for our country. Its about protecting those they love, to fight for the ideals they hold most dear to them. It means they are willing to die for a cause they find just. But according to The Last Jedi, they are all fools.
Almighty Kue "This idea that subverting the expectations doesn't hold up for everything."
I don't think anyone's arguing that "subverting for the sake of subverting is awesome". I mean, it's ok if you like the subversive stuff or not - that's totally subjective - but I do think the movie does it with a purpose, and to say that's the only reason people like the movie is a bit of a strawman argument.
"The Last Jedi's mantra was "Forget the past, kill it if you have to.""
Yes, the villain of the movie said that. And he was wrong.
"Why should we give a damn about the Resistance/Rebellion?"
The movie asks those questions and answers them by the end. In fact I think that's the whole point of the movie.
"None of it matters according to The Last Jedi."
I don't understand how people are arriving at this conclusion, unless they just stopped watching in the middle of the movie? Luke renounces the Jedi at the beginning of the film but by the end he not only realizes his error, but also the power of the Jedi as a symbol of hope. Luke even says, "THE JEDI ARE REBORN TODAY." That's his arc.
Same with Finn. Finn learns why the rebellion needs to exist. At the start Finn tries to run away to save himself and Rey. In the middle, Benicio del Toro's character tells him good and bad don't really matter. By the end, Finn has rejected this and is ready to sacrifice his own life for the rebellion. That's his arc. (I really disagree with Dan's point about nihilism btw - the whole point of the movie is rejecting nihilism).
Yes the Villain says it, but no he is never proven or shown to be wrong. In fact when he tells Rey that her parents are no bodies and dead somewhere in the desert she whimpers for exactly 30 seconds (I timed it) and she is done. Nothing shows him as wrong.
Luke does say the Jedi needs to end. And yes he does say the Jedi are reborn, to the villain whom he is trying to distract. But more that the Jedi is Rey a character that honestly isn't very interesting. Luke is portrayed this whole movie as this sad old man, in the end we see him as this weak old man who dies alone lightyears from those he cares about. He says the Jedi are reborn to the last known Darkside user who wanted to destroy the Jedi. So he has every reason to say that to piss off Kylo.
Finn started Episode 7 wanting to run, he even nearly does during that movie but turns around and decides he wants to be there for his friend and that somethings are worth risking his life for. Then at the beginning of 8 he has regressed back to the same guy who just started episode 7. It was like they forgot they already did that story!
Poe was a guy who even though he finished his mission was willing to risk death to save lives on Jakku when Kylo attacked that village. Poe in this throws away the lives of his men without seeming to care that he got more than half their fighters killed by disobeying an order from Leia. Does it make sense that the same guy who was willing to die for others callously throws away others lives just to get the W and get the glory?
The movie preaches Nihilism, it is a deconstructive take on Star Wars. And to deconstruct is to destroy or take something apart. With the callous why he treated fans of the past there is just no reason to care about this movie or any future movies or series. The Last Jedi hammered viewers with the view that idolizing the past, or at least looking to the past for inspiration was wrong. That those ideals don't matter and those icons you looked up to are just pathetic old men. So Rey is just some chick why should I care what happens to her?
@26:00
I get the argument about Rian Johnson being backed into a corner. On the other hand:
-Something has gone wrong with Luke's connection to the Force. He's become a danger to others and removed himself for their safety
-Luke sensed that Kylo and Snoke were too powerful for him (somehow) and/or had some evil mystical artifact enhancing them, and has been on a quest for the macguffin that can stop them
-There Force has been wounded; there is a terrible disturbance that threatens to unravel the entire galaxy. Luke is stuck here, healing the wound, lest the entire galaxy perish- and in agony, because he knows others need his help, too, and Han has died in his absence, but the entire galaxy will be threatened if he leaves.
I thought all those up off the top of my head in thirty seconds, far shorter than it took to type. There were plenty of directions to take Luke being on that island... so the idea that he's given up and run away (and in fact CAUSED the problem of Kylo Ren and then abandoned all his loved ones to deal with it because he won't take responsibility for his own actions, which is my primary beef with the character of Luke and the entire movie) is the ONLY way Rian could have taken the ending of TFA is a false dichotomy. There were plenty of imaginative options. Having Luke turn his back on the galaxy was TLJ's intentional choice, not the only possible option left to them.
As always, Dan is right with this one.
Joe being 36 is shocking to me. He looks like... mid 20s
I need more Star Wars arguments in my life!
If you think that the thesis of TLJ is “Let the past die”
Just rethink of your life
The ending is all about confirming your love for SW
Dan *clap clap clap clap* im glad to see your true reaction comes out, and I appreciate it, cause everything you said is how i feel about TLJ, thank you Dan, thank you
Thank you Dan. I have the same thoughts.
Sorry Joe and Spencer but I agree with Dan where Rian essentially just gave everyone the middle finger in order to try and mix unsatisfiability of Game of Thrones with Empire Strikes Back and trying to make it funny with PG marketable toys. What made star wars great was the fact that the Jedi were all about Democracy and doing right by people where the Empire was a dictatorship who only wanted those within their own circle to prosper but this movies was a cluster of inconsistent timelines, forced humor, and inconsistent story telling as well as character assassinations and making Rey ridiculously overpowered without earning anything.
I loved this movie because it subverted my expectations of what a Star Wars movie could and should be.
I also love getting hit by buses, because it subverts my expectations of safely traversing crosswalks.
They could have had Luke recovering from some fight with Snoke, where he thought Kylo was dead and abandoned him. Luke could have still been 'away' looking for some additional means of defeating Snoke, or Snoke could have simply used force sever on Luke, and Luke was trying to recover on ahch-to.
This could even tie into the arc Luke already has, since we could see him attacking Snoke because "I'm Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy" and losing everything because of it. It would have just taken a little more screen time.
Those were off the top of my head. The argument that the Luke plot couldn't have been done any other way is just lazy.
here's my thoughts about Hodo: she was not a great leader. she was a failure. that was the point. of the entire movie. Yoda spelled it out quite on the nose. But she does get a redemptive moment, just like rest of the good guys, while the bad guys never learn from their failures and are unable to redeem themselves.
They didn't just kill the past, they burned down the tree that represented it.
DAN'S INNER MONOLOGUE: "Don't Rant, Don't Rant, Don't Rant..."
as JTE's hand hovers over the graphic button.
Video starts HERE 0:00
Ryan Johnson had a ton of choices other than what he went with. There were millions of Star Wars fans who walked out of the Force Awakened with great fan theories. What he did was just bad or inconsistent writing with what came before it. There is a difference between well written and fan service. The studio's job is to deliver the best product possible to the target audience.
Luke could have removed himself from the conflict, started a new Jedi school, or even severed his connection to the force without changing any of the plot or backstory.
Can i just say, whether you liked or didn't like the casino part of the film, I would have thought that it would have been really great for when Rose says the thing about how the people there are awful it would have mirrored what Obi wan said in a New Hope - "wretched hide of scum and villainy". It would have provided two perspectives between who is scum and villainy, pretty cool i thought
The movie isn’t saying that the good side is meaningless and the Jedi are assholes etc. Some characters believe this, but they all come to realize that there is a right side and Luke himself says the Jedi are not over. And rey must come to see her idol as a human being and not a mythical legend. A really important lesson if you ask me, that also teaches you can make mistakes even after you’ve done great things and you can still do great things after you’ve made mistakes.
Loved this episode of Movie Fights 😄 but seriously amazing points on both sides. I have to disagree with the last point that Dan made. I think that what Rian did in TLJ, the world is a creative oyster for JJ. Instead of writing him into a corner, he blew open a whole universe of possibility. And if it was vital to establish Rey’s parentage as people other than drunkards, I believe that would have made its way into Rian’s script. Also with Snoke, if he was this amazingly important character, the powers that be at Lucasfilm would have had the final say. I really hope JJ in inspired from episode 8, because now Star Wars feels fresh and new.
My only real complaints with the movie were the casino plot thread and the payoff for Finn. Aside from that, I'm thrilled that Rian Johnson went in the direction he did with this movie. I understand why this movie upsets people, and I'm not going to sit here and say the Rey's parents reveal went over particularly well with me, but this and the other choices Rian made for the story of this movie all made sense to me after I put some thought into it.
I actually had to turn down my headphones when Dan starts yelling.
It's entirely possible JJ Abrams was in on setting up a dramatic conclusion at the end of one movie only to deflate it at the start of the next. Go back and watch his TV series Alias. He did that all the time. Every season it was a gigantic reversal or subversion of expectations. The good guys were really bad guys. The bad guys were sometimes sort of good guys. In fact, there was even one episode in the second season where they set up what seemed like the major new direction of the show and even went as far as casting Rutger Hauer as the new big bad and changing the series intro to really show this was the new direction the series was going in. Only to reveal that the whole elaborate set up was a misdirect for another major twist and Rutger really only had that one time guest appearance.
Honestly I don’t even watch the honest trailers anymore I just come here for the banter. Love you guys, this is good stuff. The jokes and discussion are great! But I wish y’all would’ve talked a little bit about how bad of an enemy the first order is. It really kind of took the stakes out of the movie for me and made it somewhat disinteresting.
I actually forgot this was an honest trailer commentary since they just talked about the movie for so long without showing it.
I really like Last Jedi, but the movie does have it's problems (which a lot of movies have problems).
Exactly. It was great, even though it's not perfect, but Hell, even Empire wasn't perfect.
me too
Kenneth Wright you can really enjoy and admit it wasn’t great. There are a lot of movies I love that I know aren’t great films. Plot holes and pacing issues make not a great movie.
That is an excuse nothing more. It can be used for ANY movie on the planet. It even makes it sound like you are saying that no movie on the planet is better or worse than TFA.
Agree. the original trilogy also had it's fair share of imperfections. still love it.
"Just Kidding she's a princess" -- That can actually still happen. We really only have the word of Kylo on that trying to manipulate Rey. There is no reason they can't change that in the future.
My problem with Dan’s argument isnt what he’s arguing. It’s that he’s coming from his position as if he’s misunderstood, which if the opposite. He elevates and shouts despite the fact that the two others next to him are calm. He for some reason feels to need argue against some fans online, and not engage the arguments of the people next to him.
In my view, Spencer and Joe’s perspective on the film comes from understanding the other side because they like it due to the risk. It’s the forsaking of the mythology that makes the film more powerful, and thus inherently divisive. While Dan doesnt even appear to be able to consider the other perspective. He never says “I see what you are saying, but”... Spencer tries to make a joke, but Dan’s too serious to even let that fly. His argument is based on the idea that he knows what JJ was thinking and how Star Wars films are developed. He’s the embodiment of old Epic Movie Voice Guy. This reminds me or the argument between Jenny Nicholson and Scott Mance on Movie Fights. I think the calmer head allows for a better perspective, and nuanced conversation, so I hope Dan gets to be a little less serious in the future.
I thought the honest trailer was great, probably some of their best work, but Dan seems to be fairly grumpy and exasperated when it comes to talking about popular mainstream films.
Yea he perfectly encapsulates people that hate TLJ. They piss and moan and act like they aren't understood while adamantly insisting that their very subjective opinion is objective fact. They are so invested in the head canon that they wrote over the past 40 years that they get personally offended when a movie chooses to zig where they would have zagged. Dan getting bent out of shape because the movie dares to suggest that the OT isn't perfect and shouldn't be worshipped as scripture is the perfect example of entitled fandom "ownership."
@DanMurrel, I really hope they don't entirely discard this movie with the third. If you think about it, the first movie was all about paying an homage to the original movies and the wonders of the Force and Jedi. This movie was little bit like Kyle Ren's final idea, discard the past, restart from scratch, kill it if you must, rawr. It is jarring and maybe it was meant to be a little jarring. If they play it smart, they will make a third movie that considers both ideas and finds a balance between them, a change to how things workr that still respect original ideals.
ah the comments are gonna be something else on this one
Trying sorting the comments by "newest" to get a representative sample size. Seems pretty civil as of 1600 EST.
Peter John Jude i meant the comments under the honest trailer, not many people watch the commentary
Binazir Issenova, which is why we came here to post our comments. Thanks for the clarification!
A shitty movie deserves shitty comments.
Kimbap Tempura honey it's not that deep, take a breath
I genuinely do not think that this movie subverted what The Force Awakens set up. Can someone tell me how it did? The force bond was set up in the interrogation room, Maz told her that her parents were never coming back in the castle, luke was SAID to be finding the first jedi temple, but I don’t think he ever told anyone and he seemed too ashamed to tell Leia and Han didn’t even know about Snoke in TFA (“too much vader in him”). the jedi being terrible was set up in the prequels (by avoiding the dark side, their entire society toppled over. Rey is shown to embrace both sides because she needs both for example during the fight she is aggressive and embraces the dark calling to her but doesn’t accept kylo’s proposal). Maybe it’s cause I’ve seen the movie too many times but I just don’t see it as telling the audience that everything that happened before didn’t matter. Sure, Luke and Kylo both wanted to Let the past die, but at the end, Luke embraced his legend status to save the Resistance and Kylo ended up sad and alone even though he got what he wanted
Luke throwing his lightsaber was not that crazy. Think about it... he almost murdered his nephew in cold blood with it, it's not the same weapon he had in jedi. In the end he knows that it is not his way to kill so he doesnt aim to kill ben solo, he still has hope that his nephew has good in his heart so doesnt set out to kill him, just like he never gave up on his father darth vader. Sometimes it takes more strength to not use a lightsaber. think about the restraint luke must have in that moment, because you know he misses having that lightsaber but he doesnt want to jepordize who he is by poetentially making another mistake like almost killing ben
No thats the saber Anakin had in RotS and CW. You are thinking of his Green Saber.
The green saber was the saber that Luke made after he lost the blue saber(empire, hand cut off) that was anakins but given to luke in new hope by obi wan.
love the self roast at 0:38 with the redlettermedia nerd crew reference lol
To be fair, the original trilogy is very tonally inconsistent. Especially ROTJ.
Emma Georgia thank you.
The film was fine . Not the best , not the worst .
Move on, people
Emma Georgia there was no original trilogy after jedi
Nah. ROTJ was the ONLY tonally inconsistent one.
Clearly you don't know shit...
BigHailFan i think it’s just that the humor feels more natural in 4 and especially in 5. For example, a lot of the humor in ESB comes from the dialogue, yet it doesn’t clash with the darker tone because it is well-written and well-delivered. ANH has some corny moments, but the overall tone of that film is lighter than in ESB, so it works. I realize that how people perceive tone can be a little subjective, so I apologize if I came off as forceful in my previous comment. I just think that there was a lot more care and attention to detail put into the tone of the first two films that makes it easier for the audience to know how the film wants them to feel from scene to scene
No Dan, Rian was on the set of TFA writing TLJ to keep the continuity and JJ made changes to TFA by request of Rian to fit Rian's script. Furthermore JJ liked Rian's script.
WHAT? even with all the boring scene in the phantom menace, it still had the BEST light saber fight, pod racing (yes i was a kid, and loved podracing), and overall cool ships and new badass bad guys. Last jedi felt like TV special made for netflix or amazon....
"THAT'S JJ!"
I fucking love you guys.
Dan nailed ever point to great detail. The others seem to fail to see it. Unless, they are scripted to argue with Dan. Great job Dan!
the fact that the movie is so divisive is the success of the movie itself. the greater theme of "light and dark"