branchofhopechurch yes it was a great debate due to the knowledgeable debaters but I truly believe that over-zealous time limitations dampened the usefulness of it to those who have very little knowledge of the subject. it seemed to me, especially for Pastor Paul, there wasn't enough time to lay out his stance effectually.
branchofhopechurch BOHC I have a question for you or anyone here that can answer this and its urgent because I can't deal with this anymore not knowing for sure! And this is not a joke and I'm being dead serious so please read this and get back to me because I want and need to know. Here's the deal and what happened. I as far as I know was saved and a Christian and had a lot of really horrible things happen to me and really started to think God wasn't real and if he was that he was evil. So I started looking on the internet for proof of God and during my searching came across satanists saying God was evil and that satan was the real God and so much better and that that was why Christians had so many problems and bad things happen to them, I was literally at the point of dispair and in dire straits and God wasn't answering, I couldn't do it anymore and didn't really believe in God at that point in my life and thought if he was real he was mean, evil and loved suffering, and I needed to believe in something as someone who had believed in a God all my life, so I went on the joy of satan website (see where it says dedicate your soul to satan) and did that. I then started worshipping satan for about 5 months. I seen nothing and didn't feel any different. So I gave it up. But then a few months later felt maybe I did something wrong and repented in case God was real and in case I made a mistake (not to take a chance.) Some months go by and I was struggling having such a hard time thinking there was no God and that when we die that's it, no point to this life, I was desperate to believe in something and had to see if there was anything true to any of this, so I did the dedicate your soul to satan thing again and started worshipping satan again, (keep in mind I did this twice, not once BUT TWICE after repenting of it once already from doing it before and after being a saved Christian doing it the first time!) Once again nothing after doing it again and worshipping satan for a few months the second time I did it and gave it up, at that point I was faced with what I thought was the fact none of it was real and God didn't exist and if he did he was mean and didn't care, that is until I was sitting watching tv one day and seen something that made me know God was undeniably real and that Jesus was real and the savior. I immediately panicked and became terrified knowing for certain God and Jesus was real and that it was true, more terrified than I ever had been in my life when I knew it was all true and that God and Jesus really were real, I thought I had done something irrevocable and unchangeable and that I couldn't be forgiven of what I had done and had damned myself to hell forever no matter what, but despite thinking that I got on my knees and cried (literally) and repented like never in my life and cried out to God and Jesus and did what's known as the sinners prayer and asked Jesus to come into my heart and life and save me and accepted him as Savior. Since then (3 years ago) I have fully believed and lived my life for him. But I quite a bit have the feeling that maybe I did something I'm not truly forgiven for and possibly never can be forgiven for and sometimes feel (or wonder) if I have been forgiven and if I'm doomed/damned and damned myself with no chance of forgiveness. So in a situation like this can a person be forgiven and saved? That's what I want to know and and cannot find an answer to this anywhere, can you or someone on here answer this question please because I can't live this way anymore not knowing for sure!
The reality that both these sides of the debate could be true will produce two outcomes: That we never stop promoting that Christ is changing the world, and that we are all to be looking for His return. "Jesus is life and hope". God bless you all!
I am a Classical Amillennialist. I believe that was taught in the 1st Century before Revelation was taken out of context in some places during the early 2nd Centuries. It's just not seen in the Epistles or Gospel the way Millennialists want to see it, and the 10 verses which is their foundation does not have the details to encompass all that they want to cram into it. My issue with Dispensationalism and Post-Millennialism is the lack of antiquity. Historic Pre-Millennialism and Classic Amillennialism are the only two with true antiquity.
I think I actually learned something about eschatological premillenial, post millenial and millenial.. 😃 thanks mainly to the conversational style of Paul Viggiano. His outline was sooo detailed and yet not so esoteric as to make me give up listening, like I felt while watching many other videos on the topic. Thanks for sharing. This one's a keeper 🙂 I also enjoyed, sincerely, the opening prayer, 😌 and thought the first presenters reference to his "opponent" as my brother, beautifully Apostolic😊
I'll say what Viggiano was polite enough not to say but almost did. The idea of the Lord Jesus Christ being present while a lamb was sacrificed for the atonement of "Israel" is about as blasphemous a notion as one could imagine 🤢
The debate is good and all, but why has this channel chosen to desecrate Bach’s Prelude in C major? That intro was hard to listen to. Rewritten chords and really fake string sounds hurt my ears.
Historic orthodoxy isn’t an argument. It’s an appeal to mans authority. The historic faith was controlled by the Roman church. The reformers rejected most of what was understood as historic orthodoxy as defined by Rome.
dispensationalism is a denial of Westminster Confession chapter 7... which will obviously crumble the rest of your foundation. What is your confession?
Jesus specifically warned against believing people who would claim that he already returned secretly. He said that his true return would be like lightning across the sky, public, obvious and seen by everyone. Preterists say that Jesus already returned secretly. I choose to believe Jesus.
It's important to understand what people mean when they say they are a preterist. Check out some videos on partial vs. full preterism. There's a big difference.
He returned spiritually and it is taking a process of time for the kingdom to spiritually take over the physical world, but it is happening. Praise our Lord Christ.
So the "jews' who reject Jesus are guaranteed access into the heavenly Kingdom and life everlasting. The same "jews" that said crucify him, to Pontias Pilate.. but then again without their rejection of Jesus' soverignity there could be no eschatological discussions.
I believe many of these Promises which people apply to the Millennium are fulfilled in the Eternal Kingdom. Christ will come back to rule on Earth, and His Kingdom will have no end.
The lady at the end with the first question nails it and the pastor's answer is so weak and almost does not take it seriously. Dr Ice has a concrete, Biblical answer.
The source of the rapture doctrine is the Lord Jesus Christ's mystery revelation to the Apostle Paul in the Holy Bible. 1 Thessalonians 4 (NKJV) 13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [RAPTURED in Latin] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk They are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober,putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
I love it when you get people with different opinions debating without arguing and getting heated. Thank you for such a great debate.
Maranatha.
This is such a great debate. So good for understanding the different interpretations of the bible, eschatology and the end of the world. :)
branchofhopechurch yes it was a great debate due to the knowledgeable debaters but I truly believe that over-zealous time limitations dampened the usefulness of it to those who have very little knowledge of the subject.
it seemed to me, especially for Pastor Paul, there wasn't enough time to lay out his stance effectually.
branchofhopechurch BOHC I have a question for you or anyone here that can answer this and its urgent because I can't deal with this anymore not knowing for sure! And this is not a joke and I'm being dead serious so please read this and get back to me because I want and need to know. Here's the deal and what happened. I as far as I know was saved and a Christian and had a lot of really horrible things happen to me and really started to think God wasn't real and if he was that he was evil. So I started looking on the internet for proof of God and during my searching came across satanists saying God was evil and that satan was the real God and so much better and that that was why Christians had so many problems and bad things happen to them, I was literally at the point of dispair and in dire straits and God wasn't answering, I couldn't do it anymore and didn't really believe in God at that point in my life and thought if he was real he was mean, evil and loved suffering, and I needed to believe in something as someone who had believed in a God all my life, so I went on the joy of satan website (see where it says dedicate your soul to satan) and did that. I then started worshipping satan for about 5 months. I seen nothing and didn't feel any different. So I gave it up. But then a few months later felt maybe I did something wrong and repented in case God was real and in case I made a mistake (not to take a chance.) Some months go by and I was struggling having such a hard time thinking there was no God and that when we die that's it, no point to this life, I was desperate to believe in something and had to see if there was anything true to any of this, so I did the dedicate your soul to satan thing again and started worshipping satan again, (keep in mind I did this twice, not once BUT TWICE after repenting of it once already from doing it before and after being a saved Christian doing it the first time!) Once again nothing after doing it again and worshipping satan for a few months the second time I did it and gave it up, at that point I was faced with what I thought was the fact none of it was real and God didn't exist and if he did he was mean and didn't care, that is until I was sitting watching tv one day and seen something that made me know God was undeniably real and that Jesus was real and the savior. I immediately panicked and became terrified knowing for certain God and Jesus was real and that it was true, more terrified than I ever had been in my life when I knew it was all true and that God and Jesus really were real, I thought I had done something irrevocable and unchangeable and that I couldn't be forgiven of what I had done and had damned myself to hell forever no matter what, but despite thinking that I got on my knees and cried (literally) and repented like never in my life and cried out to God and Jesus and did what's known as the sinners prayer and asked Jesus to come into my heart and life and save me and accepted him as Savior. Since then (3 years ago) I have fully believed and lived my life for him. But I quite a bit have the feeling that maybe I did something I'm not truly forgiven for and possibly never can be forgiven for and sometimes feel (or wonder) if I have been forgiven and if I'm doomed/damned and damned myself with no chance of forgiveness. So in a situation like this can a person be forgiven and saved? That's what I want to know and and cannot find an answer to this anywhere, can you or someone on here answer this question please because I can't live this way anymore not knowing for sure!
The reality that both these sides of the debate could be true will produce two outcomes: That we never stop promoting that Christ is changing the world, and that we are all to be looking for His return. "Jesus is life and hope". God bless you all!
I am a Classical Amillennialist. I believe that was taught in the 1st Century before Revelation was taken out of context in some places during the early 2nd Centuries. It's just not seen in the Epistles or Gospel the way Millennialists want to see it, and the 10 verses which is their foundation does not have the details to encompass all that they want to cram into it. My issue with Dispensationalism and Post-Millennialism is the lack of antiquity. Historic Pre-Millennialism and Classic Amillennialism are the only two with true antiquity.
Bravo Pastor Paul
I think I actually learned something about eschatological premillenial, post millenial and millenial.. 😃 thanks mainly to the conversational style of Paul Viggiano. His outline was sooo detailed and yet not so esoteric as to make me give up listening, like I felt while watching many other videos on the topic. Thanks for sharing. This one's a keeper 🙂
I also enjoyed, sincerely, the opening prayer, 😌 and thought the first presenters reference to his "opponent" as my brother, beautifully Apostolic😊
In Daniel, a permanent Kingdom is spoken of, not a temporary one.
The best debate i have come across
I'll say what Viggiano was polite enough not to say but almost did. The idea of the Lord Jesus Christ being present while a lamb was sacrificed for the atonement of "Israel" is about as blasphemous a notion as one could imagine 🤢
The pre mill positions is very difficult to sustain once you've been shown the post mill position and it interpretive methods.
The debate is good and all, but why has this channel chosen to desecrate Bach’s Prelude in C major? That intro was hard to listen to. Rewritten chords and really fake string sounds hurt my ears.
Historic orthodoxy isn’t an argument. It’s an appeal to mans authority. The historic faith was controlled by the Roman church. The reformers rejected most of what was understood as historic orthodoxy as defined by Rome.
Not only did they see Jesus glorified soon after this but John saw the Second Coming among his Revelation visions.
dispensationalism is a denial of Westminster Confession chapter 7... which will obviously crumble the rest of your foundation. What is your confession?
Jesus specifically warned against believing people who would claim that he already returned secretly. He said that his true return would be like lightning across the sky, public, obvious and seen by everyone. Preterists say that Jesus already returned secretly. I choose to believe Jesus.
It's important to understand what people mean when they say they are a preterist. Check out some videos on partial vs. full preterism. There's a big difference.
We don’t say he “returned secretly”. And what do you mean by “return” and “secretly”, anyway?
Yes you do. Its so secret that nobody knows Christ returned in 70ad except a few thousand preterists! LOL!
He returned spiritually and it is taking a process of time for the kingdom to spiritually take over the physical world, but it is happening.
Praise our Lord Christ.
Preterists always end up supporting full preterism.
So the "jews' who reject Jesus are guaranteed access into the heavenly Kingdom and life everlasting. The same "jews" that said crucify him, to Pontias Pilate.. but then again without their rejection of Jesus' soverignity there could be no eschatological discussions.
I believe many of these Promises which people apply to the Millennium are fulfilled in the Eternal Kingdom. Christ will come back to rule on Earth, and His Kingdom will have no end.
When your bio says St. Andrews church, that’s not Doug Wilson’s heretical church, is it? Don’t tell me opc accepted federal vision
Hey look--it's Chris Neiswonger!
Totally post trib, infact 40 days post trib, 3335th day
The lady at the end with the first question nails it and the pastor's answer is so weak and almost does not take it seriously. Dr Ice has a concrete, Biblical answer.
Pre mill wins hands down. A mill and post mill destroyed.
The source of the rapture doctrine is the Lord Jesus Christ's mystery revelation to the Apostle Paul in the Holy Bible.
1 Thessalonians 4 (NKJV)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [RAPTURED in Latin] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk They are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober,putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.