How I Ruined Mario Wonder For Myself
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- Опубликовано: 22 окт 2023
- Super Mario Bros Wonder is a delightful, well-made game that I absolutely ruined for myself by focusing too much on the specific formula of its level design.
Having made myself utterly incapable of seeing anything in this game beyond the pattern of a repeated design structure, I am not endeavouring to share my misery by showing you the ingenious way in which this and basically all mainline Mario games use an ancient Japanese storytelling technique to keep levels endlessly engaging.
Viewer beware: you may never look at Mario games the same way again.
I honestly wouldn't have gone with this particular somewhat tongue-in-cheek angle had I not already promised a negative video at the end of my Sonic Superstars video, so more fool me for not thinking through what I was going to do with this a little more thorougly before I teased this last time.
For the eight or nine people who stayed all the way to the end of the last video to see that tease, I would just like to say, thank you.
To anyone who didn't see that and who thinks this unecessarily negative spin feels a bit odd given the subject of this video: yeah, I agree, I'm right there with you, this was a bad way to approach this topic.
But, hey. Whatcha gonna do? RUclipsrs gotta RUclips.
Lots of love,
Just Kotor again
Source for this video's quote:
www.gamedeveloper.com/design/...
Music for this video:
ocremix.org/remix/OCR00137
soundcloud.com/ocremix/03-sta... 
Игры
This is why I stay away from content surrounding games I’ll eventually be able to play myself. Hope you’ll be able to enjoy this game to its fullest someday.
Same, I do the same thing and stay away from content surrounding games as well.
Knowing that there will be a surprise doesn't quite ruin the surprise, you don't know what the surprise is
The moral of the story: sometimes, wonderment isn’t what you might think.
That's really cool that you've made your own game. If you ever release it publicly, I'd love to try it. I'm also a fan of those itch io smaller experiences in gaming.
Oh, I completely forgot to say, it is public, you can play it here: videogamestorytime.itch.io/froggykong
hello I love your videos so much i watch them all the time and you are one of my favourite youtubers my favourites are your videos about food but i also really like the cartoon ones aswell
@@VideoGameStoryTimeYeah! Your game is great! I had so much fun playing it! I am a game developer as well!
Strider where would put mario wonder in your top 5 worst and best mario games.
I'm surprised it didn't enhance the experience but to each it's own!
I don't see why being concious of storytelling structure would ruin something for you. I personally have always found my enjoyment of things to be greatly enhanced by this sort of stuff, but hey I guess everyone's different.
I've noticed this structure in Mario games before I've heard of this term. I honestly really enjoy how these levels are structured and it really inspires me as an aspiring game developer.
Without knowing about the kishoutenketsu, i quite feel the same way about Mario level design in general. Introduce the idea, complexify the idea, flip the idea, create a resolution through the idea.
In a way, seeing the behind the scenes is a fun in itself and is a door to appreciate things way more, like jazz and modern classical music. But, this kinda work most of the time when the scene is complex, like meant to be understood through the behind the scene. But in mario, those ideas always stay simple without never falling into complexity, of course cause it is a popular game. So, while this remain brilliant, you can’t really be surprised other than by the idea itself, and not by its design and use of it. In a way, it kinda is elitism. Just without the pretension of superiority. Both side are meant to be appreciated for through different means.
I was already cursed by this knowledge but it's nice to find out what it's actually called. I've always called it the 4-koma structure!
Odd, I'd probably be more appreciative to have heavily analyzed had I the chance to have done so.
Also... the basic story structure is the big thing? That... barely feels like much anything to be honest. Like, interesting, sure, but it's One Pattern and seems to only repeat per level by the sound of it as well.
Like, it feels on the same level as discussing "Hey, you heard about this thing called a character?"
I'd honestly struggle to even see this as a full-on "formula" as much as like just one variable.
This isn't "E=MC²", this is just "C".
I'm not familiar with Japanese storytelling but I've studied animation, comics, storytelling and it can be disheartening when you start to subconsciously see the underlying structure, even when you don't want to. I've been doing a 4 panel comic and the structure is almost always similar to what you stated though ive never heard this term before. Really all art has to have some kind of structure to be understood easily and commercial art is often more bound to it because stuff that's too experimental doesn't sell. I think there's still beauty to be had, because underneath the structure is the core, joy or wonder of the game that I think shines through beautifully. It can be harder to feel if you're aware of the craft but it's still there and perhaps even more beautiful to appreciate when you're cognizant, not ignorant of it.
A good thing that always helps me after knowing so much about a game is to share it with other people, I play it with my sister and even forget about the musical parts on the game and overall I'm having a blast
This is intriguing, because I NEVER noticed that in past Mario games
"When I realized how many games have you play as A Character instead if a featureless square it ruined platformers for me." That is unironically what this sounds like to me.
This video felt pointless, you can apply this to all video games.
Indeed. What he just said reminds me of Tropical Freeze and Ori, games with very good level design.
I always love to learn something new! And this video taught me a lot. I'm a long way off from playing too many 2d sidescrollers, so this game is still wonderful for me!
Three act structure is the exact same thing. The midpoint, which happens in the 2nd act, is a new plot point that changes things significantly for the protag. Often a complete reversal. in the final act the protag has to resolve the conflicts set up and what lead to their escalating complications before they can achieve their goal. Knowing this doesn't spoil anything for me. It actually makes it better. I love anticipating moments I know have to occur and see what twist or flair the director gives it. Knowing the structure doesn't spoil the surprising and unexpected ways that structure is exploited.... now that you see it, you'll see it in EVERYTHING. You'll see it done poorly and you'll see it done well. Mario does it well.
Exactly and i feel like alot of people felt that exact way.
When you play a level from Wonder you instinctively think "damn lets see what will happen with the Wonder flower next !", you are subconsciously aware of the formula and how it is applied, and in the case of Wonder, it actually emplify it.
You dont get surprised by the structure of the levels in Wonder, you know it will happen and you welcome it, thats why its so fun, you always WONDER what will happen next, the structure is only a setup for the surprise, thats why i disagree with the video's message, everyone was aware that a weird wacky thing was going to happen within the levels, the way the level was structured wasn't a secret, so knowing this story structure didnt ruin the game, because everyone was aware of it.
When I was high school i took a class called game theory where we would analyze level design in video games and we started with smb1. I definitely agree that wonder is formulaic in its design but the level of charm and creativity distracted me enough to not focus on it during the gameplay. For example with the maw maws... It's pretty obvious that they show you one eating a goomba so you later on know to avoid them when you are a goomba, but I was so amused by seeing this thing eat a goomba that I didn't even really care or think about it in the moment. The animation, enemy design, level design, and gameplay stand out and shine in ways that make the formulaic nature almost satisfying rather than repetitive.
Personally, the older I get the more I enjoy learning about what makes things tick. There's something viscerally fun about taking apart the various stuff I enjoy. I guess, since I'm also working on making a game, I find it that much more enjoyable. It's like finally being given the parts to make something you've simply been looking at for years.
I just recall the gameplay hack of introducing a gameplay conceit in a safe space, reintroducing it with some added complexity and then reintroducing it as a harder and more dire manifestation. But this is interesting. Thanks.
I'm thankful for structure. When you don't have it, so much freedom gets you get lost.
Nice face reveal! I loved Super Mario Bros Wonder! It was an awesome game, but I prefer other games! The level design was the only thing that I found confusing and lost in! Overall, it was a fantastic addition to bring back the series!
I subscribed to this channel for the fun illustrations & now it’s becoming more of a contrarian review channel
I didn’t watch any of the leaked rom videos until I finished the game myself
Thank you for the nugget. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I really don't get this take. Why does knowing this storytelling structure, knowing that the initial setup will somehow be twisted by the end, impact your enjoyment of this game? Introducing a concept, pushing it further then twisting it in some way seems to me more like a core aspect of (good) game design, something you see not only in Mario, but in video games of any genre under the sun.
Without even knowing all of this, as soon you realize that there is a Wonder Seed in every stage, you know there will be some sort of transformation in every level. I see that more as something to look forward to every time, rather than a dull pattern that ruins the magic upon being perceived.
On the same page, would you say that knowing about the three-act structure or the hero's journey ruins your enjoyment of Western movies, books, games? If so, I think you might be getting a bit jaded towards media as a whole, which is sadly not uncommon in the current oversaturated entertainment landscape.
It feels on the same level aa "Hey, you notice how so mant of these platformers have you play as A Character instead of as a featureless square?"
I think it's the same thing as the Wilhelm Scream or the number 47 in Star Trek scripts. Once you know, you can't help but notice.... and when you notice, you can't help but be distracted by it and are taken out of the experience.
@@Scerttle I don't think that's an even remotely comparable example.
@@messss It's fine if it doesn't happen to you. I'm happy for you, in fact.
Since I prefer anticipation to surprise this kind of thing enhances my enjoyment. No different than TV Tropes will ruin your life. I enjoy wonder even aside from playing it with my kid and even if I will always have a beef with Shiggy about sidelining Rosalina in Galaxy 2.
Seriously, even as a kid if you put a present under the tree, whatever if you tell me its Mario RPG I am going to meltdown and rip a tiny hole in the wrapping to confirm.
ED: I will say when I dislike the 3rd act twist, it's because it's not relevant. That is, it's put there just to have a twist not because it furthers the experience.
This... strict adherence to the philosophy really explains Miyamoto's attitude towards directing/producing games.
I feel like knowing the trick only matters for enjoyment if all it's good for is that use of the structure (or it's made to be about that discovery). People watch and rewatch some films for a reason, same for some games.
I played Super Mario Bros. Wonder and 100% the game by taking my time. I do love how there's no timer as now I can spend longer in levels. I would say this game for me is more enjoyable than Super Mario Maker 2.
Things I've noticed with using a game engine, you begin to learn how games are made, sometimes a person might have to use another software to make models, to import into that game engine.
I've noticed people complain saying oh, why don't you use the asset store, and the people that complain mention any type of art is hard, it's the other way around for me, I like art, it's coding that's hard.
There are those who do not want to know how the sausage is made, and those who got too much into how the sausage is made and is now criticizing the ingredients. I really wasn't expecting slightly negative content on this channel, especially after that Sonic Superstars review.
kishoutenketsu sounds just like regular progress to me
Hmm.. I would have used different words:
For me Wonder is not as captivating as Odyssey or Totk by any means.
I even saw a structural redundany. Like... "yeah close to the end the wonder seeds comes."
But this video made the game actually better for me, because I realised that for the wonderseed to be a effective suprise, I need to be familiar with the levels mechanic to appreciate the change of it. And the wondereffects get more wacky than standart gameplay could.
And sometimes they break that by putting the wonderseed at other places of the level.🙂
Even seeing somewhat of a…narrative? formula like that, I don’t see why it matters when the gameplay is fun.
"Platformers were ruined for me when I noticed so many have you play as characters and not featureless squares."
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand how this would "ruin" this game or other stories that follow this structure? Do you actually no longer enjoy every story that adheres to the Hero's Journey anymore?
I feel like this was obligation because he made a Sonic Superstar video
Because he had taught himself to look for this kind of structure when analysing Mario level designs and now he can't stop noticing it
@@GloomyFish No. I understand that this is the case. I don't get how this is unenjoyable or takes away from appreciating the work or having fun playing the game. If anything, this would make me enjoy it even more.
Nice to see your face reveal. You look good.
That's interesting, learning about the Japanese 4 Act structure. It's taken everything I know about the 3 Act structure and put it in a spin. No wonder manga is so enticing!
It's good to hear Mario Wonder is a creatively 'wondrous' game, but I'm likely to not pick it up. As much as I'd like to, I draw the line at Elephant power ups and talking flowers.
This reminds me of the legendary egoraptor MegaMan X video. Love it.
Wait, 起承轉結(Kishōtenketsu) is not a thing in western? I thought it was the most basic thing when teaching writing.
Is this a case of "Trops Will Ruin Your Life"?
whos the guy at 1:30, i swear ive seen him before
Come on. Why aren't you guys talking about the Tomb Raider collection that's coming to the Switch. I think it's time you guys go into the History between Nintendo and Eidos back in the day that led to Tomb Raider's release on Switch!
Interesting take
2:00 So she is the blonde one then.
How an interesting video I radomly got today... Now let me explain my story.
Apparently I grew up playing videogames instead of actually watching movies... But when I watched them, movies with the three acts, specially nerdy ones like Star Wars were my favorites and I could watch them over and over again while 5 minutes of adult content most of the time (like 90% of the time) stress me out so in general I tend to avoid it.
Now back to videogames, you see Mario Wonders is considered by many (me included) an spiritual secuel of Super Mario World and that Mario was my favorite ever, I didn't know about this term, but seriously, I grew with this japanese formula not used only in Mario games but in japanese games in general, is curious because for example the MMO FFXIV uses the same formula from beginning to end.
Why do I say this? I LOVE THIS FORMULA, my Autistic/ADHD mind loves it because, my ADHD receives enough dopamine in sections: First the teaching, I understand how the mechanic works, then how it is correctly used in pretty small challenges, then the twist usually with more challenges, changing the formula and finally the great "Finale", where you finish the great experience.
My point is, finally you gave me the answer of why I loved this formula so much, while I hate, but really HATE open world games, I hated both new Zeldas, I hated Super Mario Odissey, those games were too overwhelming for my Autism, while this game instead is formulaic enough for that part of my mind but has enough challenge to give dopamine to my ADHD.
Thank you my friend, my neurodivergent mind is sorry for your situation where you ruined the game to youself, but you made us enjoy an already excellent game, even more... Understanding WHY.
what a stupid idea lmao why does knowing how level design works ruin it for you? i've known about this structure for a long time and i appreciate the levels even more now rather than thinking it's just random stuff being thrown at me. and it's not like you automatically know what the surprise is gonna be so there's still a lot there. knowing how things are structured doesn't take away from actually enjoying the challenge, yeah i know im gonna face more bulrushes and then something crazy is gonna happen with them but i don't what or how, and i still have to actually get through it. it's a platformer game, the fun comes from the platforming not from being surprised there's a 4th bulrush in a level called bulrush coming through. what an absolutely garbage thing to say.
1:55 A face reveal.
This is a good game. But I rather buy Super Mario RPG.
If you intend on getting Super Mario RPG, you should also consider getting Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door.
It is a great game. I found it okay, but I prefer other Mario games to play besides it. It was tons of fun, though.
why not both?
@@go_golden Yeah. Both are great.
That's the plan @@EvdogMusic.
Honestly my issue with it is that... It is like babies first Mario. Such a great concept to expand onto wild and difficult stages. Truly push things and instead it is babies first Mario game easy.
Hell they didn't even bring all the kids in but just the most boring one. Bowser Jr who I couldn't care about at all. Who just has minor platform changes for his fight but does the exact same thing.
Could not have been more bored. Kids have been gaming for decades now. There is no good reason to dumb down for them anymore. They start with a controller of some form in hand.
imo mario wonder is worse than other mario games because it doesn't follow this formula properly. the wonder effect usually does something completely random, rather than developing the level theme, and the short length and low difficulty of levels doesn't help either. part of my enjoyment of previous games is this structure (consciously or unconsciously), but it wasn't really here in wonder.
This feels like the most pointless pretentious video I've ever seen
I think this is generally why I prefer JRPGs.
Pretty much every JRPG introduces a mechanic in a simple way, then gives you a more challenging way to use it, (repeat a few times), then use that mechanic or a combination of mechanics creatively to win. This can give you a sense of freedom even in super linear games.
This contrasts with western style games where you're given a a mechanic or two and then you basically solve the level by using the mechanics in very specific ways. More of a puzzle and a test of execution than a problem to solve.
However, western open world games also do the former thing too which is also why I like them.
What? No video about why Rosalina is not in mario wonder? I thought she was created to replace Daisy. Are you a liar? All your video are just clickbait? Who would have guess?
A good thing that always helps me after knowing so much about a game is to share it with other people, I play it with my sister and even forget about the musical parts on the game and overall I'm having a blast