Teamwork Is An Illusion
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- Опубликовано: 30 май 2024
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Just casually chatting about a casual game. :)
Don't forget to check out @MAXIMUM.DAMAGE gaming videos if you want more casual gaming vibes.
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Competitive Beggar's Bazooka clip from @AntoniFP
Pub push animation by @Krunkidile
Sound editing and mixing by @SoundSmithTF2 
Игры
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Ethical Sponsors Are An Illusion
I desire engineer carnally
I eat cardboard
you should try playing risk of rain 2
Next month’s rent = PAID
So called “free thinkers” when the administrator says there are 60 second left:
PUT YOUR BACKS INTO IT, LADS!
The guy from slap battles
WHY IS THE CART NOT MOVING?!
TF2 matches for 6 minutes: conga lines, killbinds, silly voice chat
TF2 matches for the last 60 seconds:
Neuron activation: player hears voice line
one time i saw a guy named Solider Jumpscare and he would just rocket jump and land in front of you holding an objector with the word BOO! written on it, and then he'd detonate himself
It was really fucking funny
Psychological damage, a proven tactic
did u get spooped
@@Trafficallity scariest moment of my life I swear
He’s a man after my heart, can confirm because he owns my soul
Had a scout named petty bully who'd just use the shortstop mouse2 shove and spam voice lines
I remember some of the tf2 devs (I think in an interview or the dev commentary) talking about how the game was designed as a "single player" game where each class's objective is essentially selfish, but by pursuing it you end up helping your team.
a demoman who camps the enemy spawn is doing it to get big frags, but ends up helping the team by stemming the flow of enemy reinforcements. an engineer who builds a sentry in a good spot is doing it to get many frags, but ends up helping the team by providing a good safe area for them. a medic healing everyone is doing it to see the number go up and eventually become god with the über, but ends up healing the whole team in the process. et cetera.
it's a pretty good way to design a pub game, everyone ends up working together without even thinking about it.
Yeah i remember that interview as well, it wasan interesting interview!
Everyones interests and goals just intersect and we end up helping each other unintentionally, which is pretty amazing game design
I was actually in the process of writing a video about Pass Time and how the developers were specifically trying to put emphasis on teamwork, only for the team's 3 scouts to run the ball into a bunch of sentry guns and never pass it ever, and only for the pass time gamemode to end up being extremely close to dead
Pass time was such a joke lol
Hush now scrub.
Close to dead? That means I can still play it???
Least liked solar light comment
Least liked solar light comment
Everyone has their own objective, but when it’s that last minute it’s just a hivemind with all one goal
Tbh, when it's 30 seconds left and my team is getting steamrolled, I just flee or accept defeat at this point to where I physically raise my hands up IRL before the enemy kills me.
@@SmellyUnfortunate007 "The Victor can't claim themselves victories unless the defeated consider themselves vanquished". When you "throw your hands IRL", you claim yourself vanquished, remember that then and only then can the other team say they won.
Current objective: CAPTURE THE POINT
Except for koth
one goal and one braincell
Team Fortress 2 is a horror game where you're locked in a lobby with 11 clowns. The twist being...there's 12 clowns.
The real clown was inside us all along
@@TheRandomEpicVideos you may say he was among us
@@user-gi7vi9gm4t That spy is a clown!
@@TheRandomEpicVideosthe...the...jerker?
@@TheRandomEpicVideos I can feel the clown coming inside of me
pub pushes are like being a student and realizing the homework is due tonight
and the gang bands together to share notes
@@thewall4069and share wrong notes on purpose
I'd argue the domination mechanic was WAY more important when the game first came out, and everyone looked exactly the same. It was a good way to tell who was the top scoring enemy
It's still great to have that subtle nerf to good players. Unless they're such tryhards that they switch to Spectator whenever they dominate someone.
@@RdTrler oh don't get me wrong, the mechanic is great, and I'm all for it.
The fortress is an illusion too. And the 2 too. Actually everything is an illusion; all I see are hats and bots
We can fix bots as a community #fixtf2 support the cause
tf2 isn't even the second game in the franchise, there's around 3 or 4 canceled sequels to tf1, the quake mod NOT to be confused with the half life mod called team fortress classic which is a remake of tf1
All i see are flying T-pose Heavies being obssesed with anime girls and THE CART IS NOT MOVING MAGGOTS!!!!
It's all cgi
@@Bootman43 its gonna fail fuck savetf2
hi uncle dane can you file my taxes
Texas
Sure thing, partner!
Dear Uncle Dane
Please file out Starrazing‘s Taxes.
You have one week.
Sincerely, Swiftblitz.
file ur texas
@@SwiftBlitz.Taxes is an illusion
Learning about the "Pub push" thing made this game so much funnier to me.
Like every casual lobby has this Winter Soldier-esque transformation into a well-organized fighting force that could rival pro players in capability when the old lady speaks into the microphone.
15:17 engie isn't talking to himself, he's talking to his teleporter. he treats his buildings like they're his pardner, it's cute :3
true,
My sentry is my bro
Hey Edd
The engineer -----> :3
"Ain't that a cute little gun"
12:55 "Nobody is ever in voice chat leading the troops into battle.", boy do I have a tale for you.
There was one time on a 2Fort match, where the opposing team was made up of mostly hackers spawncamping us. One guy on my team hopped on voice chat and told us what we'd need to do. He made sure that the Medics (about 5) built up their charge in spawn, while also making sure that everyone stayed away from the doors, and telling everyone else what weapons we'd need. As soon as the Medics had built up their charges, he assigned a Medic to almost everyone, made sure that we all knew what we had to do, and then told us to get out there. Guns blazing, ubercharged, we drove the hackers back. Eventually the hackers left, and we rolled over the opposite team to capture the intelligence and win the game.
That is the story of Garsaxon44, the man who united his team on 2Fort.
Truly a legend. A champion of the people, the hero we need.
literally the "Team captain" sfm animation
i know this dude, can verify that this is the sort of thing he does
He should be regarded as a folk hero.
"Godspeed you magnificent bastard"
They always say “dispenser going up” but they never say “is dispenser feeling down?”
Everybody wants a dispenser up but nobody wants to keep it up
Literally me
Erecting a dispenser
Dispenser down! PUSH
Unprotected dispenser when Red Tape Recorder:
“Mission ends in 60 seconds” is a sleeper agent activation code
Im pretty sure the game drops the respawn timers down for the pushing team to give an advantage. Its coded into the game.
9:00 "its good background noise to study or relax to." tell that to the scout i heard being burned alive with napalm there.
*scout burning to death* ahhh music to my ears
The most important thing to understand is that everything about the fake teamwork is BY DESIGN. They knew from TFC that getting a bunch of idiots to work together is impossible in a pub setting. It's why Medic has to be the strongest class or no one will want to play the healer while everyone frags, and why most classes are countered by core design choices like Pyros flames making it easy to track spies so teams will naturally gravitate towards better class compositions rather than simply a perk that lets you see cloak shimmer or whatever. The craziest thing is that NO OTHER TEAM BASED SHOOTER seemed to learn this lesson from TF2 and expects random pubs to act like pro esports 6s teams, and then wonder how Overwatch ranked got so toxic so fast.
EDIT: Adding onto this since it seemed to strike a chord with people. My point here is strictly relevant to the solo queuing style of play, or how most people play multiplayer games. Games like Overwatch and MOBAs can be fun when you get teams that work well together but it's inherently a dice roll, not to mention smaller team sizes inherently discourage people from going off and trying their own thing. Which is fine for those games!, but I think a strong point in TF2's favor that people don't seem to bring up is that casual is 12v12, when was the last time we had a big multiplayer game hit with that concentration of players in a match?
I also don't have any problem with 6's TF2, because it's a small scene where everyone involved has to actively seek it out and are far more likely to be taking it seriously than official ranked in most other games (and also because I just find 6s TF2 WAY more fun than any other similar game). As for Valve attempting to """"support""""" the scene and then dropping the game like a rock when they realized it failed, I think the main issue was simply that the core audience for TF2 wasn't super interested in a ranked mode in the first place. If they wanted to play comp, they could join a 6s or Highlander team. The community liked the idea of competitive since it meant Valve had to keep actively supporting the game, but even when Blue Moon finally came out and made it... playable, it died instantly. If the demand was there from the majority of the playerbase that wouldn't have happened. That's still on Valve for not trying to incentivize, or even ADVERTISE why 6s might be cool to try, but it's Valve.
As for Medic being the strongest class, it's obviously not perfect, and even the TF2 team admits that (that's why he got the first class update, complete with the original straight upgrade Blutsauger and the Ubersaw, and why the Crossbow never got nerfed, because it gives medic a much higher skill cap and makes him more fun). You could theoretically give him different healing mechanics aside from the Medigun and it would probably work out to make him more interesting to more players, but Valve always seemed VERY hesitant to change Medic too much.
I wish I could upvote the above comment 10 times instead of just once.
@@TF2CrunchyFrog This is youtube.
We dont do upvotes here.
to be fair, overwatch is secretly a moba and thus is more directly balanced around competitive if you think about it
Could this be why demoman is op? otherwise nobody would destroy the sentries
It explains why Overwatch public experience was so awful.
I have a hundred positive memories of moments in this game, but I couldn't tell ya if we won or lost that match.
I mean, in a pub match, people having fun and the positive memories are all that matters.
I used to go by K/D only but random crits and snipers are unprecentable at times so i just go by general performance and feel now
@@Lawlz4Dayzz If you're just playing whatever random pub teams you're automatically put on, K/D is the only metric that makes any sense to care about plain and simple.
Which, to be clear, isn't to say you even need to care about that. Whatever floats your boat and all that. Just that if you're going to care about ANY objective performance metric in pubs at all, K/D is that one and only thing.
@@Alloveck Id say its the quality of kills and the amount of time I am alive and in the battle and fights as well. There is more stats tracked than K/D but since I dont know how to access them that arent a new record then I just put it all together in a general feel and highlight reel.
Yea to me I don't even care about k/d anymore. It is all about creating funny/interesting moments. I find that trying to hard to create these moments isn't the best either so I still try to win. But never at the expense of making something interesting happen.
I think you vocalized a key reason why I still love this game so much even in the midst of the bot infestation; there are very few other "team-based" shooters keen on delivering what is both a nominally team-oriented experience whilst also not sacrificing the goals, aspirations, and playstyles of the individual.
I remember a bit that I developed with a friend called the Engineer Traffic Association. We would set up on RED on a chokey map with distinct but narrow pathways (like cp_gorge before the bridge of the first cap) and block one of the paths with a dispenser. We would put up literal "Detour" signs with sprays and instruct BLU, calmly through text chat (or VC if alltalk was on), to take the alternative route to the point, but we would essentially act like friendlies and not shoot anyone until they destroyed the dispenser, at which point we hardcore beeline the person who destroyed the dispenser until they died. It was one of the funniest things I've ever done in this game and one of my fondest TF2 memories.
12 friendly hoovies all switch to minigun at 60 seconds. Nightmare fuel
0:33 "The default uber in sfm is broken, for some reason, and it always flashes like it's about to end"
SlowViolet
@@blackshock116lethargicmagenta
ApatheticAubergine
Unmotivated indigo
Truant Pink
Pyro being healed 20 health points on Extinguishing a teammate is a perfect example of this. You think I did it because you were going to die. I think I did it because I was going to die. We are not the same.
haha true
Well what if I told you before Jungle inferno you only did get 1 point and it was a gesture of being cultured to put someone out
i do it because i feel bad for the burning scouts and medics. i know how it feels, scunt34738, and doctor sex, to burn to death without someone to save you.
@@TehPlayer14 it's what separates the pyro players from someone just picking pyro imo
Even something minimal... I added the "Teammates Extinguished" tracker to my Strange Jarate and now I'm a team player.
“Uncle Dane, who did this to you?”
“TELEPORTER DOW-“
There's only two times where it can be called "Teamwork"
ONE: Medic using his UberCharge
TWO: "There's a Spy creeping around here!"
No matter how much I spam the line, it feels like no one actually takes the Sentry Ahead! command seriously until they see the sentry ahead blasting them
To this day I still wish they recorded Sniper! voicelines similar to calling Spies out since they can be so well ahead and have such deadly aim while hiding their laser sight you can’t help but want to warn people about turning that corner
I also wanted to say that in payload, being stuck at the last point is the most fun. For BLUE, it creates this feeling of "one last push, one last attack!" and RED has a feeling of "last line of defense, final stand!", which is far more compelling than being at any other point, except maybe the first one.
last point is the most fun because red gets to play the game
@@whatgoeshere24 true there mate
solution: ultra short maps with 2 checkpoints at the most
That's pretty much ctf
I think this explains why Payload is perhaps my favorite mode and the game's most beloved mode
Maybe the real 'Team Fortress 2' was being a Team to push the cart as BLU, solidifying your position or Fortress as RED. Together, these 2 are the a Team Fortress 2.
I love the domination mechanic, the game just lets you know incredibly loudly, "THIS IS THE GUY PWNING YOUR ASS, KILL THIS GUY!!!!!!" with a bunch of red arrows pointing at em, meanwhile the sounds that play when you dominate or get revenge are just really satisfying
It was good design choice to make the revenge kills fun and satisfying too. It means that even the people who are losing fights more often than not still get their fun moment of glory every now and then. It's essentially broadcasting "AYY YOU TOOK DOWN A BADASS NICE GOING"
So, ironically, because it only takes one kill to get revenge but 4 to dominate, the domination mechanic actually can make it less frustrating to lose repeatedly as you're less focused on the k/d ratio and more focused on keeping them from maintaining the dominating status.
I hate this because it often results of people targeting and salt switching to cheap class - spy/sniper or any other in order kill you
@@TehPlayer14Exactly! That's what pick classes are for
This guy loves being dominated
I also hate it , it was really bad for my mental health when i had no friends , at my darkest time of my childhood it felt like a backstab from a game i loved i dont care people keeping but i wished there was an option to remove it. It also resulted it in me not understanding it just a game mentality
Something I would add to the domination mechanic is the killstreak mechanic. Players with high killstreaks are displayed globally in text when going on a rampage. Basicly announcing to everyone “Look at me, I’m killing you all. I’m better than you all. SHOOT ME”
Killstreaks are already on the game, however you need to add the Killstreak Counter to your Weapon yo start counting. And every 5 kills, it's announced to everyone that you are on a Rampage.
Valve literally made each player PAY for bragging rights at the same time as marking the one bragging about as a top objective. And that Is just evil
11:50 or as I like to say it, 2fort is the most casual casual server. It's also where I first got trimping practice for demoknight (the roof of the bridge can be trimped)
Also i just realized, in 2fort, the equivalent for "Mission ends in sixty seconds." 1:15 Is both "We have taken the enemy intelligence." And "Alert! The enemy has taken our intelligence!"
Me when I yell to my medic to activate charge as he just stands there doing nothing:
then he ubers the demo who gets 1 kill
@@windows95-079 that was me
@@windows95-0791 kill is generous
F2p moment, this is why issue vote kicks on useless medics and engineers
My medic with 100% charge watching as I fly around the corner into 3 sentry guns dying instantly
12:40 I think the phrase you're looking for is "emergent teamwork." It sort of happens when enough brain cells cluster together for a plan to work and sometimes comes out of the most minor things, like a Pyro inadvertently saving a burning Medic who then both regroup with a respawned Soldier and cooperate on the next push, suddenly becoming their own micro-team telling their own micro-story.
Teamwork = Buffoonery + Pressure
The good stuff
i'm not sure its quite "emergent" in TF2's case. emergent play refers to players finding fun in something the developers never intended: source's funky physics and all that entails, speedrunning/glitchhunting in general, player-made challenge runs (ie: "only use one specific weapon").
TF2's sort of hidden designs which contribute to teams working together are kind of the opposite. devs quietly pushing players towards a fun they didn't realise they could have (in the sense that team-based shooters typically have that competitive gamefeel by default but TF2 doesnt).
the silly/serious combination is even kind of encouraged by the game's visual and context design. it's cartoon-ish, but has a level of detail that makes it more realistic if you stop to look for long enough. in the heat of battle, the large blocky silhouettes that give the game it's cartoon stylisation become clear shapes with obvious signs of class and team. during downtime, the serious details like a model's eyes turning to look at the player at the best possible moment add even more to the humour as though it's not a shooter. it started as a super serious team shooter and then the story became that the teams are fighting over gravel using the silliest weapons you could think of.
it's very much part of TF2's design to subconsciously push players to that playstyle. i'd call it passive teamwork. players are playing in a team, but they don't realise that's what they're doing. good personal decisions happen to be generally good for the team too. consider most other team-based shooters where even casual play tends to lean competitive: if a player runs off to try and do something cool by themselves, they're seen as annoying or game ruining. but in TF2, if a scout does nothing the entire round but laugh taunt at every death nearby, it's (usually) pretty funny and not too annoying.
@@toranine09 "emergent gameplay" is not the only meaning of the word "emergent". Heck "emergent gameplay" doesn't even have the specifications you think it does - it's just complex end results from relatively simple systems.
@@toranine09 Note I didn't mention emergent gameplay, but rather that the teamwork is emergent. Emergent means "arising as an effect of complex causes and not analyzable simply as the sum of their effects."
I'd dare say that there's more to bringing together this mini-team in the scenario I described than the simple facts that airblast extinguishing exists, medics are the most important class in the game, and respawning allows a failed push to try again.
Teamwork is not just mechanics but a selective series of choices to cooperate, pool strength, and cover weaknesses. If it happens in the middle of a random pub match without the benefit of a voicecall full of prep and coordination, I would classify it as emergent teamwork.
I think another thing that helps encourage "teamwork" are how some of the weapons and tools can be used on other teammates, or require teammates to be useful, and even rewarding players for using by giving them buffs/heals, or just reducing cooldown time. The Medic and Engineer's arsenal is the most obvious example, but there's also the Soldier's Disciplinary Action and various backpacks/horns, the Pyro's airblast, the Mad Milk, Jarate, and the Sandvich and other lunchbox items.
I remember watching a video about how TFC was designed, and I think what was said there is relevant here. The classes weren't designed to fill a role for their, team they were designed to be fun. Pyro for example doesn't exist to support his team, he exists so that high ping players can enjoy the game too. Engineer doesn't exist to support his team, he exists so that low skill players can enjoy the game too. Heavy doesn't exist to support his team, he exists because the devs watched a cool movie and thought that mowing enemies down with big gun would be sick. They are individually fun to play, and then team dynamics emerge from how those playstyles converge. And classes that failed to be individually fun were reworked in TF2 to be more individually fun, with the exception of Medic.
TF2 is mostly the same way, with (again) the exception of Medic who just so happens to be the least popular casual class. Even support options usually benefit the user more than anyone else.
Engineer was made to award those who were bad at aiming but could utilize his kit. Not because they were just terrible.
Some Pyro players don’t have high computer ping… Just high brain ping 😂
But we love em anyway 🔥
Me after spamming "sentry ahead!" To the scout as he runs past me and into the cave of beeps and boops.
He was simplying scouting the area to fact check your claim
scout no! thats where the rizzterloper is!! he's gonna gyatt you!!! watch out!!!!!
@@benwaffleiron there are 60 billion TF2 hat keys in your mailbox
At 16:05 Dane says "such as doing something for the good of your teammates instead of yourself" while his cursor briefly hovers over a Pyro named "Yourself".
Accidental comedy gold there.
Another thing is that when you lose, the enemy team gets to humiliate you. It’s great for motivating pub pushes
Nobody talks of how incredibly well done the SFM clips for this video are?
I really admire the dedication Uncle Dane put in the production of interesting topics about this game. It really makes me happy to see content creators still pushing limits in terms effort to make high quality content.
Honestly, I think this is what makes tf2 so fun. In every other semi-competitive pvp game out there, there’s no room for messing around. Even in “normal” queues, everyone’s dead serious, set on winning the game at any cost (or set on sabotaging their teammates in a fit of baby raging). But in tf2, there’s wiggle room. Most people aren’t just mindlessly pushing the objective. You’re having a 1v1 sniper battle at the same time the medics are trading Ubers at the same time the scout is mucking around in the middle of nowhere at the same time a hoovy is getting a sticky trap set on him at the same time a soldier is trying to market garden an air blasting pyro. It’s chaotic but it’s fun that way. Idk where im going with this but it’s why I love tf2
except in cs2 but that doesn’t count
It's the ultimate ADHD dream for FPS. In your average match I might swing between actually trying, dueling, memeing, experimenting, and just slacking off. I think my personal favourite moment is mini-teams, where you just have a team of like 4 people rolling deep.
The fact it's 12v12 is definitely helping it a lot.
Nowadays 5v5 and 6v6 is the standard and in competetive environment, you feel the weight of the smaller team sizes. Each player has more expectations thrown at them.
Meanwhile in TF2 having 1 less player ain't that impactful, having 1 inexperienced player ain't something you'll feel much in the match, you have way less responsibilities, if any at all. You get that freedom to waltz off to the side and do your own things for yourself, and to get into random dumb, funny, odd, etc. situations.
@@tinkerer3399 Or randomly deciding to partner up with some completely random spy on your team to wreck havoc in the backlines just for the hell of it.
Saved a medic? Partner up and get into dumb situations with the guy.
STOUT SHAKO FOR 2 REFINE
Tf2 is so chaotic that even in Highlander, winning is completely about who has control of their team's one collective braincell the least.
But we can all agree everyone's a winner in a bot-free match.
Which is why everyone loses since jungle Inferno
@@leonardo9259 it is because i found a way to control your teams collective braincell for 90% of the time
winning highlander is about killing sniper
hot take but 6s is easier to coordinate than highlander
21:14 it feels great to come together with a group of strangers
just noticed that the inro ends at exactly 1:00. Whether this is purposeful, or accidental genius, its absolutely brilliant.
I just had this exact discussion in a casual match the other day.
What I stated was: "Noone cares about the objective, but also, noone wants to lose"
gotta avoid the humiliation round bro
I’ve noticed that whenever I get multiple dominations at once, more often than not, if and when I loose them, they all happen in quick succession one after the other.
I really like this “encouraged teamwork” instead of it just being enforced and expected, the fact that Tf2 is 12v12 lends itself well to this since one player not pulling their weight has less impact.
It’s why competitive formats that are actually focused on team play tend to have much less players.
Really? Do you have a source? How many can you get with the kunai and Diamondback? Or theyre not OP and you're just bad. I need a video for evidence.
@@Lawlz4Dayzz bro its not that deep
@@Lawlz4Dayzzare u acoustic?
@@Lawlz4Dayzz Somebody had a bad day
@@Lawlz4Dayzz man does not know who jontohil2 is
“boo random crits” - guaranteed crits engie
Dane has just entered gaming Nirvana. Who needs winning when the little things bring the most joy.
tbh the energy of "Everyone does their own chaotic thing and that somehow culminates in a victory through sheer happenstance and map design" is the reason no other game has ever come close to replacing TF2. I don't want to tactically vomit six ults (sorry, five ults) onto a control point to win an overwatch game I want to go in without a plan and goof around while still tangentially playing the objective and that be the vibe of the game.
"I don't want to tactically vomit six ults (sorry, five ults)"
As a both TF2 and Overwatch player, that made me wince. Dammit Blizzard for making the Tank lonely!
Man, early Overwatch actually felt like this to me. Then the balance patches and the forced Meta ruined it all... Not getting an e-sports scene is one of the best things that happened to TF2.
@@Mick0Mania It wasn't the esports scene or the "forced meta" that pushed Overwatch into being less of a chaotic deathmatch game. It was the everlasting march of skill development that pushed the game where it was designed since the beginning to go - coordinated teamplay.
Early Overwatch was full of players who didn't really understand what winning looked like, what elements were powerful and necessary to utilize if you wanted to win. Once players started figuring that out, it became much, much harder to stumble into wins. When players utilize high ground, it's harder for a discombobulated group to just kind of vaguely swarm and take over the map. Once players figure out positioning, duels become less frequent and more dependent on game knowledge over raw mechanics.
This is the inherent design of Overwatch, it was always a game that requires team-play to succeed. The difference is, people didn't understand how to force teams to actually coordinate in order to succeed.
@@blazefactor6849 That's what I meant to say with "forced meta" but you put it better than I could. There's technically an optimized way to play TF2 as well, but the design of the game doesn't force you into it as rigidly as games like Dota2 or OW does.
@@Mick0Mania Meet Your Match really did a number on weapon balance, that's for sure. A lot of nerfs came about because some weapons were too powerful in competitive, but Valve didn't want to do weapon bans. I shudder to think what would have happened to casual if official TF2 comp had taken off.
Like a famous food critic once said
"TF2 is like a chocolate party, everyone is mostly doing their own thing, but when everyone bands together to do something in synchronism they create something big, a mess but it's big"
What is a “chocolate party”? Ain’t no way that’s a real expression
@@keabonhall2436It’s when you mix together tons of chocolate like hersheys, Twix, and other crap and it all ends up tasting good, but no better than if you had just eaten the individual components. As opposed to cake ingredients, which do not taste very good individually.
oug doug
His quote aged like fine wine
@@TheAllSeeingGamer1I used to hate that guy but then he killed hitler and I've loved him ever since
15:20 this why i manually say ty to medics and engineers
0:22
"From around the world"
YOU'RE PLAYING ON NA SERVERS, 3 COUNTRIES IS NOT ALL THE WORLD, YOU BURGER!!!!!!!!!!
"This is why I'm not a game designer, I'm not smart enough to come up with solutions like this" I fully disagree, as someone with aspirations in said space, people like you who can condense these sorts of topics in a way that everyone can understand are very much so the type of person who would make a great game designer. So many of these reinforcements and design details are so common these days that most people don't actively truly think about their impact and potential and it's so interesting to have someone boil down their well thought out theories of their impact on game flow, players' decisions and how that fundamentally molds the feel of the whole game at a pub level, you're a really smart man and this video gave people like me and others, a lot to think about, thank you!
Nothing makes me feel better as a Engineer than when Im upgrading my teleporter at spawn, And a soldier takes it but before he does he gives me a nod and hits me with the "Thanks" command..
as one other engie who helps another engie i would say thnx as well
i always like to visibly thank anyone who helps me in any way, whether be a medic who saved me from respawn hell or someone who assisted me in a kill, Z+2 and nodding up and down in a fast manner is always prompted
i love to take Eng meanwhile 1min till start and help other engie to upgrade his stuff adn then switch to my normal class
You reminded me partly why I love TF2. The voicelines.
I actually did my own voicelines for TF2 (Recorded probably around somewhere between 200-600 individual lines) for medic, heavy, engineer, and sniper, basically all of the default non-holiday gamemode related voice lines, and I absolutely adore hearing them, because I basically gave them even more personality. (The domination lines were my very favorite, both to record, and to hear)
I replaced heavy's crit death sound with a loud 5 second fading out soundbyte of the USSR theme, and I swear to god, it NEVER.. GETS.. OLD..
Also, I voiced the medic as basically just myself, with my own mannerisms and phrases, so any time I heal the heavy, sniper, or engineer, hearing them vocally thank me, by name ("Thanks, squishy", "Y'know what, they're wrong about you squishy, you're alright~!" "Good work, squishy!"), it just immeasurably magnifies that feeling of gratification in those moments.
I'd share the mod, but.. Uh.. Some of the engineer's lines towards demoman get a bit too spicy.
That airblast of the loch n load by the pyro got me hype. Mans stood on business while you were on a rampage 16:53
Some of my favorite moments in TF2 are when me and another player are just on the same wavelength. We never talk to each other but we share the same dumb braincell so we work well together. It's pretty special
Same, I get this moment a lot if i bump into a teammate spy while playing spy in their backlines, and we both nonverbally agree to disguise together to be more convincing to the other team
That one spy that saps the sentry so you can push ❤
That last 60 seconds makes something click in the mind of every pubber. Their inner competitive persona takes control and its always so fun to see
honestly this is a concept i love. i also found myself that i enjoy games way more when i stop putting such high expectations on myself and those around me. stopping to enjoy the small moments is just as important as living those big moments. we're all more alike than we think, and have the same goals in mind. we play to win the game, but it's about how we get there that matters. it's the journey, not the destination.
4:18 that poor engineer
The "Fortress" part is being trapped in spawn
the consept is simple :
Act one : " haha fuck yeah let's fuck around :D "
Act two: " * *Sixty seconds left in the mission* * Oh piss victory! and defeat! I WANT VICTORY! "
Act three, after winning or losing: " damn, that was a fun game of fucking around. "
i don't usually comment, but i loved this introspective video essay/commentary, and i especially love that you revealed at the end that part of the motivation for this video was your frustration with finding yourself angry at the game. your analysis and the introspection together reflects exactly the process of responding philosophically to an irritating and confusing phenomena. the implicit story in this video, of your coming to understand yourself through the game, concludes so satisfyingly!
i never thought of there being "micro" and "macro" motivations to stay invested in a game, but after you pointed this distinction out, it makes so much sense why the silly moments in tf2 and other games are what i remember and care about the most, while the thing that draws me to have those micro moments are usually the macro contexts. even though the outcome of the match doesn't matter, what keeps me invested in playing a match to the end--which is what makes it possible for me to experience more of those silly mico moments--is that macro motivation that maybe my team can win. your analysis of the subtle motivations for "accidental teamwork" also makes so much sense. now that you've pointed it out, i'm starting to see some of the game design tricks in other games i've played, like in hypixel minecraft bedwars, or supercell's brawl stars.
anyway, please do make more of these kinds of videos!
these little micro moments you showed in the vid made me chuckle, i love tf2
"There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families." -Thatcher the Milk Snatcher
There are individual men and bots, and there are pub pushes
why do they call him the milk snatcher
@@user-bkey *her
@@huks9380 "There is no gender spectrum. There is only milk and snatchers."
@@huks9380 my bad why do they call her the milk snatcher
Ellen McLain is a national treasure, and when she talks, you listen. It's no surprise her little "sixty seconds left in the mission" line contains such an incredible amount of power.
when GLaDOS or the Administrator tell me to do something! 🫡
You don't need a formal conspiracy where interests align.
This is an excellent video, I wasnt even intending to watch the whole thing but the narrative you spun describing the teamwork victory at the start of the video had me hooked immediately.
You were funny, informative and entertaining. I hadn't actually thought about how the domination mechanic contributes to team play before so that's an entirely new idea.
Good upload, hell yeah.
I like to think that the Engineer is thanking the player for having the good sense to build a teleporter to hustle around the map
No, he feels that the teleporter is underappreciated, and thanks it.
@@GunSpyEnthusiast Yeah I also always thought the "partner" was supposed to be the teleporter. I mean, he calls his guns cute, so thanking his teleporter isn't outta the question
There's no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Queen of England and there's no team work in TF2
And there is no Megamind 2
@@InsertFunnyThingHere There is no need for such.
“wait, santa claus is fake?”
And there is no 70k players online
and there is no medic
amazing video, really showcases a lot of the subtle genius design choices this game made years ago that everyone forgot about. The "domination" thing really blew my mind, I'd never thought of that before.
really also helps bring to light a lot of the "tradeoffs" devs make when forging a multiplayer game whose ideal experience is "all teammates in voice chat, on the same wavelength, picking the correct synergy of characters, communicating in peaceful terms". in reality, most players would rather just queue up to shoot anything that moves on a sunday night and have what you described as "micro" competitive fun, just with the added human element of a bunch of ppl going around making things less predictable.
There's a TON of games out there rn that IMO shouldn't even shoot for the hardcore esports angle, but do so anyway (maybe cause they think having ranked addiction is the only way to keep the playerbase alive). I'd argue that, most often, it's smarter to have fucking around on your terms be the rule, and expecting/rewarding cooperation (or punishing lack thereof) be the exception, rather than the other way around. Especially helps keep the noobs around long enough to learn how to enjoy the chaos, and who knows, maybe even become a competitive player at some point.
in any case, a deep, timeless masterpiece should always allow players that want to take it to the next level to customize rulesets and matches - so they are able to express their skill in a more controlled environment. bottom line is, casual players don't have to suffer so that hardcore players don't starve.
this is a good game
I love shooter games like TF2. Ones with slow kill times. Ones where your own death is funny. Ones where a community has inside jokes that last for so long that they deform into absolute nonsense to an outside observer.
if your death in a game is consistently funny, its a great game
getting your ragdoll yeeted into a wall after an explosion will never NOT be funny
I find it so hilarious when I die out of nowhere and the cam shows a upward looking sniper from across the map!!! So hilarious!!! What a timeless classic!!
@@leonardo9259 mostly consistently funny*
I often have the mindset “We have 10 minutes to dick around its fine”
And then when that team bell sounds “Mission Ends in 60 Seconds.” It’s time to kick ass.
"Teamworks... Coordinated push... Its all just a allusions"
"Nothing will never be the same!"
man this was awesome, pointed out EVEN MORE crazy clever and innovative stuff about this game that I never saw. Also strangely therapeutic! Cheers uncle.
WHY DOES THE DEMOLITION TEAM DEFEND AND THE BUILDER TEAM ATTACK THAT MAKES NO DAMN SENSE
I think a building company would have a lot to gain from buildings in need of rebuilding
Especially since red is a much more aggressive colour than blue.
Yeah that's always kinda bothered me. Is the original TF like that too? I feel like it has to be a holdover from something because it would make a lot more sense the other way around.
I guess at the end of the day, RED and BLU are fronts and so the fact that neither lives up to their name is to be expected.
MatPat did a whole video on why TF2’s teams are colored the way they are. TLDR, RED defends because having RED be offense gives a psychological edge to the attacking team. Having BLU attack balances momentum from a psychological standpoint and further creates the “Illusion of Teamwork.”
Why do you think there's a bunch of explosives on payload last? Those are the explosives RED uses for demolition purposes. BLU explodes RED's demolition tools so that they can no longer cause further demolition.
Poopy Joe.
Fortress' are an illusion. Welcome to Team 2
2s are an illusion. Welcome to Team Fortress
Teams, fortresses, and twos are an illusion, welcome to
Your mom is an illusion
Teams and Fortresses are an illusion. Welcome to Hats 2
Huge character development from 2016, where everyone was saying the game needed to change to encourage more active teamwork and a competitive astmosphere.
"Mission ends in 60 seconds"
*Whole team leans forward in seat*
the maps we play on are also tachnically not fortifications, so this game in reality is just "2"
Technically the first game was not a stand alone game, just a mod. So its just " "
3:34 Yeah this is just Walmart in a nutshell. Every time I go to Walmart, SOME kind of crazy shit has to happen. It's never a peaceful shopping experience
The best description of that thing has a person, and that person is madekoo with all the micro moments
For Payload, momentum is a thing sure.
But to gain momentum or to break through a wall is often solved by 2 different actions.
1-Collectively, as a team, abuse more angles against the other team. This means maybe don't go through main choke and get instantly deleted for the 21st time and instead explore the map and find the different routes.
2-Press and hold w more often.
Team fights in payload and attack/defense, and other game modes where clearly definable "front lines" form can be simplified to a few concepts.
Those being sustain and pressure.
Sustain is the team's ability to sustain their defense or offense. This is ammo supply, healing, respawn+ability to get back into the fight, a safe area to fall back to be healed and recover ammo.
The 2 classes that focus on building sustain is Engineer and Medic, more so Engineer.
The other classes provide sustain by being a threat. In the simplest form, pyrobro protects the engineer nest.
Another example however is the 10 demos/soldiers/heavies that is killing the enemy team so they don't just corner peak your sentry and then spawn camp you.
When a team has no sustain, their sustain is literally the player's current health and whatever other factors that allow them to exist for a while. And when they die they need to take nearly an entire minute to get back to the fight.
This concept does exist in team death match messy games - But less so when it comes to sentry nests and areas of safety. It's much more focused on the individual play instead of the area of safety and respite provided by your team.
Pressure is the threat of your sustain being picked apart or completely taken away.
The difficulty in the game and these games is how do you consistently generate pressure against the enemy team?
An engineer's pressure is generated by providing sustain to their team, so that their can effectively apply pressure. There are also ways to provide pressure with aggressive sentry placement and other forms of aggressive engineer playstyles.
A medic is healing and ubers.
What about soldier, demoman, heavy, and pyro?
These are the guys that need to find positions and angles that allow them to deal effective damage or spam.
Take badwater payload last point for example. Red team has the common 3 strong sentry nest positions. From blue perspective, right side cubby, left side cubby, far back bottom left.
Main choke is notorious for sniper sight lines.
I'm going to talk about soldier for ease of examples and personal experience.
Map Room -> Windows. Spam out far back left and left side cubby.
Map Room -> Windows -> Rocket jump up to red spawn. Spam out left side cubby, and right side cubby. More risky but is very effective when you can just spam out the engineer and his buildings at the same time, instead of just the sentry.
Sniper Tower, with some jumping you can relatively safely spam out part of right side cubby.
Sniper Tower -> Left of sniper Tower -> Space beside main choke. Spam out right side cubby. Is vulnerable to some of the sniper sightlines.
Sniper Tower -> Left of sniper tower -> space beside main choke -> Rocket jump over to the balcony between red spawn doors. Risky place, extremely effective if you can survive for 10-20 seconds. Spam out both the engineer and his dispenser at the same time, sometimes you can fit in the sentry as well.
Sniper tower -> left of sniper tower -> rocket jump into other tower -> go down towards back of point. Spam out right sentry. Can try to push far back bottom left sentry. Risky but can also try to push left side cubby.
Naturally of course, red team should be defending these angles and not letting your team freely abuse it. Which goes into the concept of "take space and then abuse it". Which means, go take the angles from the enemy team, and then do all of the stuff I've said above.
And in some cases, you might need to apply the same kinds of concept as described above. For example, if red team has set a sentry nest in the map room windows area, attacking it from sniper tower or left of sniper tower might be the best play.
At any rate, if a team is effectively and consistently abusing these angles, it becomes virtually impossible for engineers to build up stay alive.
Engine nests are sustain engines. Destroy the engines, red team will struggle greatly.
Which moves onto the second part - Pressing and holding w.
The sentries make it difficult to survive 30 seconds after pressing and hold w.
The dispensers make it difficult to outlive the enemy.
The teleporter allows the enemy to get back to the fight faster, but payload badwater, last point. Teleporter doesn't matter for red. It's a minor convenience most of the time and often a drain on metal. If it was a different point, it would also matter.
When the enemy's sustain is crippled, it's the ideal time for your team to press and hold w and go kill them. And this where the pub push phenomenon comes into play.
Most people don't want to press and hold w because it's dangerous. They'll die in the video game.
Until there's no time left to play it safe so they just start throwing themselves at the point. And boom, blue team is suddenly going all in, and is putting enough pressure to break red. And then they win.
Unfortunately, you can't control your team. So the best you can do is determine when to press and hold w, and where you should be going to. Sometimes you want to abuse angles to destroy sentries. Other times, it's certain positions that just really good at spamming out the enemy players.
Sometimes, it's just go to the payload kart and exist on it for 5 to 15 seconds.
The important thing is that your participating in the solution instead of the problem.
9:39 "It's all brownie points"
Killfeed: "Brigadier Brownie"
On pub servers, some matches are an absolute uncoordinated mess. But I've been in many pub matches where everyone works together, and it feels incredible. There _are_ a lot of competent "casual" TF2 players, as the game has been around for so long... they may not be on the same level mechanically as competititve TF2 pro players -- no insanely fast perfect Demoman/Soldier roll-outs like clockwork -- but I've been in many pub server matches where people (even "hatless" players) still clearly knew what their were doing, what their class's role was, how to be alert for Spies, to protect the Medic etc.
Little moments, when during set-up time on Payload people on RED team briefly switch to Engineer without having been asked and help level up the Engi's teleporter at spawn so the Engi is free to do more imprtant stuff, then switch back to their class. Or Scouts, instead of stealing the Engi's metal at the frontline during set-up, suicide next to the sentry so the engi doesnt have to waste precious seconds to refill his metal. Or during battle if the Medic is gravely injured a Pyro or Soldier retreating and escorting their injured Medic to the next big medkit and standing next to it and motioning or shooting towards it to indicate "Take this!" even if they also are injured. Or a Scout who spawns along the Medic equpping a melee that allows self-harm and helping the Medic build über while we run to the frontline.
And if you win not because the enemy team is incompetent and you were stomping them but because both teams were pretty evenly matched yet your team won because they worked together like a well-oiled machine, and the über came in at just the right time, or a Pyro smashed the enemy Spy's sapper off the sentry and dispenser while the Engi was dead to keep them alive, it just feels good.
Tryharding on tf2 is fun
from your explanation i got reminded of other games in general, special rpgs: "dodge ignored, block ignored, parry ignored" But SUDDENLY, when there are like 5 HP left and they cant tank the next hit, they suddenly start to play good.
This was really well explained. It's a huge reason why I love this game so much. Way too many games make you take it ungodly seriously screaming in voice chat. Chivalry 2 is a game that does this moderately well too that wasn't mentioned in this video. Each class has some supportive ability, and it's still a team objective game, but there's no dedicated medic or hardcore strats required. You just throw your bodies at the enemy and have sick sword fights, and occasionally do it as a team.
15:36 this is correct, I got so happy when hearing those voicelines when doing good things for the team that I was motivated to do better when I started playing the game
1 brococloi and cheader soups 2 bags of chips 1 lemonade thank you
that'll be $13.75 (flips ipad around with the tip options)
@@UncleDane Ipad tip options made me realize we live in a cyberpunk dystopia
@@UncleDane-100% tip, give me my money back.
4:59
"Valve's flawed matchmaking."
That implies there is a goal beyond "throw a bunch of people together"
I loved hearing you spell it out like this. I see this kind of unintentional teamwork all the time. Like one time I was playing Heavy and I popped around a corner to try taking out a sentry. Didn't even expect to be successful, just thought I'd distract it for a few seconds and do a bit of damage before I died. But right before I did, a spy sapped it. Perfect team coordination, except we didn't coordinate it.
I have coined this phenomenon with my friends about a year ago in a moba. I call it the "oh shit we are going to lose" buff
since then you are calling it at the beginning of the game and last week you won one mil championship xdd
I think the best way to describe a TF2 match is a bunch of people with completely separate goals that all conveniently led to a singular outcome.
I never really thought about the domination system like that before, where the more people a person dominates, the more his enemies will focus fire on him, generating teamwork. I'm going to go back and see what the developer commentary said about the domination system now.
I think you bring up a super good point with the automatic thanks. I recently tried to start playing tf2 and instantly got my shit pushed in . I switched to medic to provide some sort of help to my team and the only thing that kept me from never playing the game again after that match was the amount of thanks I was getting from the actors. It made me feel needed and helpful
Probably one of the main reasons the more competitive-focused Uncletopia servers are so popular is because the emphasis on teamwork makes for a nice change of pace to traditional casual TF2. It's quite satisfying when once in a while everyone hops on voice chat and coordinates a successful push because most games, like you say, are more free and individual in nature. The end goal perhaps isn't capturing the final point or pushing the payload, it's seeing the team's plans and strategies through to the end that draws people to these macro moments.
They're the only consistently filled botless servers
Was playing a match of Harvest the other day, and it went almost exactly like the intro, everyone was goofing off, doing silly strategies, but as soon as the 60-second timer started we all panicked and started fighting for the point. Most fun I've had in a game in a while.
Glad someone else finally said it. I've been saying it for a long time: Rolls are not fun. Sure, they're extra not fun if you're the one losing, but even if my team is the one mowing down the enemy... I'd rather have 10 stalemates in a row. I'd rather have 100, or 1000 in a row! I didn't buy TF2 to win. I bought it to play. The result of the game helps, but in the end, I just want to fight enemies and have some good back and forth.
The word you're looking for is "emergence", not procedural generation nor accidental cooperation.
Emergence is a phenomenon where agents, through their individual action, collectively exhibits a notable trait. A real life example of this is an ant nest: No particular ant is, or even _can_ think about the nest as a whole. They merely communicate through pheromones and dances, and yet a nest is incredibly complex and intelligent. It's not that the ants "accidentally" help eachother, they do so willingly, but always in small actions with small consequences, never thinking about how their actions will help the colony.
Compare this to a TF2 team: Players help the team intrinsically just by playing, and sometimes even directly help each other such as with engineer's dispenser. However, they don't think about how much they're helping the team, simply that they're helping the _members_ of their team. This also means that all TF2 players are as intelligent as ants
'Teamwork is an illusion, and so is death,'
uncle dane the deadlock leaker main
This video makes me realise how nice it is to listen to well spoken people talk without any fancy/funny effects or music
Great topic, the way the game pushes the team together is so subtle that you almost never notice it, I certainly didn't give it much thought until I watched this. Just makes me appreciate the intricate design details of tf2 even more