I have a pair of Sumiko 10" subs (300w amps) in my system and they really add to the music experience. The key is to set them so the only add to the experience, they should not call attention to themselves.
dude how do you deal with that much power? I only have one 100W RMS sub and I have to have it at like 5% gain just to be mildly transparent. That's such an unusable knob at that point, it's so hard to tinker and make it fit into the system.
@@weevilsnitz I only use what i need, the rest just sits there. My gues is it's only a few watts steady stae but could peak close to 100 watts when the big fella whacks that drum or the bass guitar gets played hard.
@@weevilsnitz dude you are the guy connecting speaker outputs to subwoofer line-in! If your amplifier don't support a sub you can't have a sub or need a converter
For me... nothing like stereo subs! And if it's a single sub.... best put it in the middle if possible. While LF's may radiate omni-directionally, that doesn't mean that you cannot localize the sound from a single sub that's off to one side. A sub crossing over at 60Hz will still have output in the 200-400Hz range, which you can certainly hear if it's off to the side.
I recently got a second matching small sub from REL, the T Zero mk 3, to match my original one which as you advised is tuned to the room on the RHS in the corner. As my main use is for classical this is a good position. In my case the T Zeros work very well with my small bookshelf MA Radius 90s on the manufacture’s stand. This is because the small MAs start to fall off between 80 and 100 hz. REL advised me to stick with the small T Zeros as their smaller bass unit can reach up towards the same bass frequency range to get a smooth cross over zone. As REL use a special high level cable the timing and togetherness of the set up is outstanding. What it did show is that my AV amp (Marantz N1711) wasn’t really up to the job of powering the set up nor had the soundstage I needed. Hence I’m trying out a much higher quality Marantz PM8006 as the amp, using its pure direct mode. What a difference this makes on large scale choral works. I don’t even need to set it to more than 10 o’clock to fill a medium sized living room. The massive power reserve is always there on tap. It also has such a good vinyl phono stage that I’ve shelved my iFi phono preamp. I then invested in a good specialist iFi signature DAC for streaming using Apple Music. I needed the Apple camera lightening to USB adapter to be able to access Apples new HiRes music collection. This is now excellent. What started out as a $500 sub upgrade has since added on another $2k of front end and amplifier to abstract very high quality sound. But then we’ve not been on a decent holiday for a couple of summers due to the pandemic, so why not enjoy the music instead…
Paul I have to ask... if your ears are are biased to the Infinitys as been the best reproduction how can you evaluate any other speaker? If you never heard the Infinitys would your conclusion then be very different?
I believe the issue with adding two subs to a room vs. one sub is to counteract the standing waves which can develop from the use of a single sub. The sound waves emanating from the single sub are longer than the room, reflect off the walls, floor, and ceiling alternately canceling and reinforcing each other. The result is spots in the room where bass is heavy and other spots where it is nonexistent. If you’re going for a stereo ‘sweet spot’ one sub, properly placed will do; if you want a fuller sound stage (and who doesn’t?) then two are much better. I take Paul’s point about ‘good’ subs with a ‘clean’ and quick output. Interested in the SVS 3000 myself (two of them). 🙂
The issue with me is... I have one subwoofer in, honestly, a pretty large room, it's only 100W RMS I believe... I have to have the gain at basically 5%. So to add another sub would be overkill. I do understand the need for clean headroom but having to run the volume so low that there's essentially no easily tunable range of volume for tinkering and finding the sweet spot sucks so much.
@@weevilsnitz Your report surprises me. Something doesn’t sound right to me, but I am not an expert, just a beginner. It seems to me there should be something you can do, like using high level inputs instead of low level or visa-versa; change the placement of the sub, or it’s orientation, perhaps even it’s source - a different output or a different amp. Change the cross-over frequency. Although, from the frustration you express, it may well be that you’ve tried all these ‘fixes.’ If all else fails get up with a professional installer, a sub, most any sub, should be an improvement. Unless your speakers are so large and loud and have so much bass you don’t need a sub after all.
@@jeremiahchamberlin4499 Klipsch K-100SW attached to the B speaker output of Yamaha R-S202, and old AIWA FX-F12 speakers. I don't have money for better equipment so all I can do is setup as best I can myself, which I do. So, I'm getting speaker-level output to the sub, which Paul recommends, and it's just so overpowering for a comfortable balance, regardless of crossover set or phase flip. I would comfortably love a 100W peak sub instead of 100W RMS.
@@weevilsnitz The problem I see with your setup (if I understand it correctly) is that you can’t adjust the volume of the sub-woofer separately from the main speakers. This is usually an option for AV amps employing low-level ‘sub outputs.’ If your Yamaha doesn’t have the capability of adjusting level per channel (I imagine such capability requires a Digital Signal Processor; I know my Technics AV receiver can), then you’re looking at a hardware solution. The simplest thing to try would be to split your source signal, one pair straight to the Yamaha, and the other straight to the Klipsch. Another option would be an inexpensive passive preamp (like a Bellari PP632 or Schiit SYS) so that all the sources go through it (that is, the Bellari) and split the output from the Bellari between the Yamaha and the Klipsch. Finally, if a low level output is available on the Yamaha use it into the Klipsch directly or through the passive preamp. (I would have to look up the data on your Yamaha.) I’ve been able to use the Bellari myself to integrate disparate pieces, and the SYS to level match components. But basically you need a way to separate the level into your sub from the level into your other speakers, and I believe that right now they’re both tied to the same volume control, and as you have discovered you’re never going to get there from where you are. Others with more experience in these matters can probably spec just the solution you need. I’m merely offering insights (conjecture?) and suggestions. But I do believe your pain is real. 🙂
I checked the specs on your Receiver: No Sub out or preamp out. You’re kind of stuck without a way of feeding the sub separately from the AV receiver you have. I’ll stick with my advice (for what it’s worth) to split the signal ahead of the Yamaha, or trade up to a more capable amp. Your receiver goes for $169.00, I think the Bellari goes for $99.00. A better receiver seems the more elegant solution to me. Another way to go is a passive sub with dual voice coils, so that speaker out goes to the sub and the left and right speakers are fed off the sub. In fact a wiser head than mine told me to wire my stand alone sub up that way when I was without a sub out for a while. You might want to try that first- wire Speaker A out to the sub and then wire left and right speakers to the sub and forget about Speaker B.
Paul is so right about this. Most systems can benefit hugely by adding a subwoofer and if you have enough money, get 2 of them. But, especially for a smaller room, it's better to spend the extra on a high quality subwoofer than two mediocre ones. High quality sub bass means low distortion, quick decay, linear response going down to near 20Hz or below with no very dominant resonances and a high sound pressure that can shake your room. Putting it in the right spot of the room and tuning it (if such option is available) can easily make or brake the experience. Hopefully PS Audio will make an awesome subwoofer some day.
20hz? I've build the Zyklop-Sub 2 that can do that with minidsp but thats not self-evident. it also "only" goes up to 120hz. you also need good speakers that can still play well low.
Does it make sense to use a subwoofer with 2-channel audio sources (CD, vinyl) when there's no discreet LFE signal? Or does it depend on the speakers you have?
I want to know this as well, my sub has no high level inputs. My multichannel analog preamp has a sub input but it only comes on for surround with my analog outs of my HDMI dac. Never kicks on from the built in dsd dac for 2 ch. The HDMI is sending an LFE signal but my analog pramp for 2ch has no LFE signal-so how would i get the sub to work in 2ch also?
proper hardware with subwoofer outputs simply let you configure a crossover frequency where anything below goes to the subwoofer, no matter if stereo or 7.1
I will be honest I don't always understand the "tech" behind these videos but I do get alot from the as position and levels and such from them. So thanks Paul I've been a follower for a little while and real good information.
Also may depend on your source. Vinyl only goes down to about 40 hz and adding a sub to it could add a lot of vibration to the floor and the room in general which gets into the needle and sound reproduction suffers. So better be raised off the floor and well isolated at both ends.
dual is fine, that if a open ended option for subwoofers. dual stereo subwoofers at left and right side, now there is where magic happens. but don't forget to buy or build the right speakers, open baffle or sealed designs are best. don't want to compromise on sound quality when you have subwoofers.
The video cleared out everything. I wish to have many subwoofers but I have only one which is doing fine, though I have a feeling that two make more sense.
I think it depends on the quality of subwoofers. I tried 2 low end subs , I still didnt get the bass and sound I wanted. I bucked up and got a decent quality sub. Oh man. It put both cheap low budget subs to shame. Then I got 2 good quality subs, it made all the difference . Quality over quantity.
You're absolutely right. But duals are better, and four is better yet. It's; Selective mode cancelation (what Toole calls it) Which utilizes somewhat of an acoustic zone polarity (what I call it). By simply sourcing subs left and right, fore and aft, destructive resonant obfuscation of bass detail is stripped away with no effort other that simple placement. The 12dB in headroom is just a bonus. (Whichever direction you spread them, that's the axial modes they address, ie., placed left side and right side addresses modal misbehavior of the side-to-side variety. Similarly, placement in front and behind you addresses the front to back modal misbehavior. Likewise, placement in each of the four quadrants addresses front-to-back, and side-to-side modal resonances) This improves performance every time, without exception.
a bass speaker in low frequencies you can not very well hear the direction of where the sound is coming from. I have 2 pcs. subwoofers box. not to have louder bass but to have stereo bass. the best is 24db active bass filter to get the best possible bass sound. not all subwoofers have nice and correct sound! the reason is as follows. say you have a large speaker box with 2.1 system where you have a bass speaker at the bottom. Then you also have a proper crossover filter that removes unwanted frequencies. A sepparat bass box often has only 12db. at a frequency and no lowering of unwanted frequencies. therefore, not all subwoofers have the correct sound type
I have an SVS PB 1000 pro. As good as it is, and it's great, I have peaks and nulls. When I stand in a null, I can't hear the PB 1000 pro at all. None. With dual subs this will fix (not totally eliminate) the standing waves to a point where it's more encompassing through out the room. With that said, I have my second SVS 1000 pro on the way. Wooo hooo!
Love your videos! I have three 15’ velodyne powered subs stacked in the left back of my 7.1 home theater system. I know I have some dead spot in the room where you can’t perceive much of the bass. There’s really only one other location I could put one of them that’s to the far front right in the room. Is it worth moving one over there? Thx!
you would be better having one on each side at least .i found with 1 i also has hot and cold spots.as soon as i filled it with my svs 16 ultra on the opposite side ,it helped dramatically to fill in the dead places. after playing around with REW , phase etc and a lot of room deadening panels ,it sounds great. the panels made a massive difference as they would stop a lot of bounce.i strongly advise doing panels too.if the wife allows!
@@milkman100001 Much appreciated! Hard to explain, but really can't put one on the left side of the room. But, I take it that's better to at least have them at two locations, although back and front-right in my case? Thanks again!
With my 4 IRS IIIa's, that's eight 10's. I prefer the way it sounds over my 15" in my truck. IMHO subs are just a way to replace something with 1 or 2 small boxes that would require many larger boxes reproduce. Like my PC's Boston Acoustics speakers (that are 20+ years old and rock by the way). Two little self powered Sats and a sub. Like I said, they sound pretty good and they sit in the same room as my main system so I'm not rose coloring them. You would have to push a set of Infinity RSa's to get the same sound. But again if I had my choice I would take many of the smaller then fewer of the larger. Like with my many 10's they just seem more snappier.
I have a sub on my A/V for the tv...But I have two woofers, on each Klipsch tower speaker, and I don't like all of that extremely low end from a sub, on my audio system!
The addition of a sub makes a huge difference to music playback. There used to be - maybe there still is? - a certain snobbishness about subwoofers only being useful in a home cinema environment, or where there's a desire for thumping rock, which is so wrong. I use a REL sub, connected at line level to my Arcam, and the difference it makes is glorious - cellos make your chest vibrate, the rolling drums of Khazad-Dum in Howard Shore's LOTR score rumble ominously through the chair, all without dominating the sound, just enhancing it, making the experience more visceral. I used to have two RELs, one per speaker, but the room couldn't cope - in my situation it was better to have one sub (off to the right, Paul!) positioned and adjusted for the room sizes and shape. Bliss.
I purchased a new stereo system with one subwoofer about 6 months ago. It sounded great and then some of my friends said I needed 2 subs. I did a lot of searching on the internet and found some said you need 2 subs and some said only 1 is needed. I purchased a second sub. WOW, my system sounds so much better with 2 subs that I can't believe the difference the second sub makes. I will never go back to only one sub!!! Paul I have my crossover frequency for my subs set to 80 hertz, what do you think, higher or lower?
Interesting comment about footfalls. I don't know if you knew Tim Marutani (Levinson dealer in SF and previously partners with Chris Hansen) but he had a recording he made on his personal ML5 tape deck of Eubie Blake at a recital in a south bay college hall. He threaded up that tape once and played it for me through the HQD demo system he had, which as you know had 2 Hartley 24" subs in refrigerator sized cabinets. Eubie was stomping time with his foot as he played and sang. That was the most amazing subwoofer sound I've ever heard. No dramatic booming or thumping noises. Just the concussive feel of what it sounds like in a hall when someone stamps on stage along with all the noise of shoe leather meeting wood.
Wha, ha, ha! Now I know there are a Queenstown in Australia too (Actually 2) - As a Sydney-sider, we only “care” about Queenstown New Zeeland - Best ski hangout!
The Ohm Walsh 2000 goes down to 32HZ and most reviewers say that is low enough for most music as to not need a subwoofer unless you want to feel the lowest notes of a pipe organ.
I donno why but everytime I watch these series and right at finish I look at the girl at the right smiling with glasses and I can't see anyone else!! who are you girl????
I used a Devialet for a while (the entry level, not the HiFi worthy gold unfortunately) for a full range speaker the low end is insane, but the rest was a bit mediocre for me. Now I use them devialet as a subwoofer for my kef ls50 wireless. Brilliant sound
Rookie question… Is the right side AKA right channel the right side from your sitting position or the right side from your system facing the sitting position. I would imagine it’s the right side from the sitting position facing your system but just wanted to verify.
Sub woofers are becoming more and more frequent these days and yes, they are incredible, but only when used correctly. It's all about matching the sub/s to your existing speakers AND the room they're in. Off course, the other thing to consider is whether your room is acoustically sound and whether your speaker positioning (without sub/s) are correct. With home cinema setups, it's a different scenario (although positioning and the room being acoustically sound is still prominent), but on the average 2 channel setup, in the average size room with the right system/speaker matching and acoustic treatment, one sub is more than enough. If you find you're "not getting enough " from having one sub, you should look into its placement and setup. It's crossover frequency and phase settings play a massive part in how effectively it blends (or doesn't) with your system. Again, consider the size of the subwoofer too. There are some poor excuses for subs these days. Personally, I'd suggest a minimum of a 10" driver, however where possible I will try to use an 18". The size of the driver doesn't mean "it will be louder", it means it has the ability to get lower frequencies. The main thing to remember is the whole point of having a "high quality setup" is that it replicates recordings and sources as true to the original as possible. Adding one or even multiple subs, without calibration or looking into original speaker placement, setup and of course your room acoustics, you're no better than that person in the 80s or 90s with the classic "eq smile" on their graphic equaliser
A bass shaker is basically the same thing as a Subwoofer... except that it doesnt move any air. It simply Vibrates at the same frequencies. You will Feel the footsteps if the shakers are close enough to you (most are installed under the viewing couch). As a test, I ran two 15 watt bass shakers mounted under my PC chairs seat. I played an old arcade game called Gyruss.. in which when you fire a bullet, the sound of the bullet gets deeper and deeper as it travels into the screen. With my shakers on full power... the vibrations were so much.. that my monitor LOOKED Blurry! (Because my eyes were shaking too much). I turned them down a little bit, and all was gold. Id guess that a couch might want a bit more oomph, as it has to travel through a lot more material and framework. But here is the thing... you might miss some of the SOUND of the missing sub frequencies... as again, its just the enhanced Vibrational effects. Bass shakers are more of an addition to a set of subs. And or... when you want to feel the vibrational effects of a sub... without waking up the entire house.
What is the impedance on each driver subwoofers. How do you have them wired up? I go with a Kevlar 10-inch 16 Ohm's running as a dual mono. How do you have your new speakers subwoofers wired up three in the cabinet, what are their impedance? Are they run as dual mono then into a single to give you 8ohms That's the biggest mistake people buy with subwoofers for 2-channel listening they think they need to go big that's wrong keep them small but more of them so like two stacks of 10s 4 for 2 channel
This Brad bloke must be from Queenstown, South Australia, not Queenstown, Tasmania. No one from Queenie in Tassie would have a clue what all that was about, haha. Hello from Burnie. 😉
There is an unwritten rule which says "In every organization there is someone who knows what is really going on. This person must be fired." You probably don't want to be that person. As for the Mercury record with the subway noise... I Don't want THAT much realism.
I have a pair of Sumiko 10" subs (300w amps) in my system and they really add to the music experience. The key is to set them so the only add to the experience, they should not call attention to themselves.
dude how do you deal with that much power? I only have one 100W RMS sub and I have to have it at like 5% gain just to be mildly transparent. That's such an unusable knob at that point, it's so hard to tinker and make it fit into the system.
@@weevilsnitz I only use what i need, the rest just sits there. My gues is it's only a few watts steady stae but could peak close to 100 watts when the big fella whacks that drum or the bass guitar gets played hard.
Yep you should only notice subs when they turn off
@@weevilsnitz how does the theoretical power matter? Can't your audiophile stuff do room measurement and configure volumes and distances (delays)?
@@weevilsnitz dude you are the guy connecting speaker outputs to subwoofer line-in! If your amplifier don't support a sub you can't have a sub or need a converter
For me... nothing like stereo subs! And if it's a single sub.... best put it in the middle if possible. While LF's may radiate omni-directionally, that doesn't mean that you cannot localize the sound from a single sub that's off to one side. A sub crossing over at 60Hz will still have output in the 200-400Hz range, which you can certainly hear if it's off to the side.
well that depends on the slope of the filter used in the sub.
I recently got a second matching small sub from REL, the T Zero mk 3, to match my original one which as you advised is tuned to the room on the RHS in the corner. As my main use is for classical this is a good position. In my case the T Zeros work very well with my small bookshelf MA Radius 90s on the manufacture’s stand. This is because the small MAs start to fall off between 80 and 100 hz. REL advised me to stick with the small T Zeros as their smaller bass unit can reach up towards the same bass frequency range to get a smooth cross over zone. As REL use a special high level cable the timing and togetherness of the set up is outstanding. What it did show is that my AV amp (Marantz N1711) wasn’t really up to the job of powering the set up nor had the soundstage I needed. Hence I’m trying out a much higher quality Marantz PM8006 as the amp, using its pure direct mode. What a difference this makes on large scale choral works. I don’t even need to set it to more than 10 o’clock to fill a medium sized living room. The massive power reserve is always there on tap.
It also has such a good vinyl phono stage that I’ve shelved my iFi phono preamp.
I then invested in a good specialist iFi signature DAC for streaming using Apple Music. I needed the Apple camera lightening to USB adapter to be able to access Apples new HiRes music collection. This is now excellent.
What started out as a $500 sub upgrade has since added on another $2k of front end and amplifier to abstract very high quality sound. But then we’ve not been on a decent holiday for a couple of summers due to the pandemic, so why not enjoy the music instead…
Paul I have to ask... if your ears are are biased to the Infinitys as been the best reproduction how can you evaluate any other speaker? If you never heard the Infinitys would your conclusion then be very different?
I couldn't live without my duel Rel subs.
Ditto
I believe the issue with adding two subs to a room vs. one sub is to counteract the standing waves which can develop from the use of a single sub. The sound waves emanating from the single sub are longer than the room, reflect off the walls, floor, and ceiling alternately canceling and reinforcing each other. The result is spots in the room where bass is heavy and other spots where it is nonexistent. If you’re going for a stereo ‘sweet spot’ one sub, properly placed will do; if you want a fuller sound stage (and who doesn’t?) then two are much better. I take Paul’s point about ‘good’ subs with a ‘clean’ and quick output. Interested in the SVS 3000 myself (two of them). 🙂
The issue with me is... I have one subwoofer in, honestly, a pretty large room, it's only 100W RMS I believe... I have to have the gain at basically 5%. So to add another sub would be overkill. I do understand the need for clean headroom but having to run the volume so low that there's essentially no easily tunable range of volume for tinkering and finding the sweet spot sucks so much.
@@weevilsnitz Your report surprises me. Something doesn’t sound right to me, but I am not an expert, just a beginner. It seems to me there should be something you can do, like using high level inputs instead of low level or visa-versa; change the placement of the sub, or it’s orientation, perhaps even it’s source - a different output or a different amp. Change the cross-over frequency. Although, from the frustration you express, it may well be that you’ve tried all these ‘fixes.’ If all else fails get up with a professional installer, a sub, most any sub, should be an improvement. Unless your speakers are so large and loud and have so much bass you don’t need a sub after all.
@@jeremiahchamberlin4499 Klipsch K-100SW attached to the B speaker output of Yamaha R-S202, and old AIWA FX-F12 speakers. I don't have money for better equipment so all I can do is setup as best I can myself, which I do.
So, I'm getting speaker-level output to the sub, which Paul recommends, and it's just so overpowering for a comfortable balance, regardless of crossover set or phase flip. I would comfortably love a 100W peak sub instead of 100W RMS.
@@weevilsnitz The problem I see with your setup (if I understand it correctly) is that you can’t adjust the volume of the sub-woofer separately from the main speakers. This is usually an option for AV amps employing low-level ‘sub outputs.’ If your Yamaha doesn’t have the capability of adjusting level per channel (I imagine such capability requires a Digital Signal Processor; I know my Technics AV receiver can), then you’re looking at a hardware solution. The simplest thing to try would be to split your source signal, one pair straight to the Yamaha, and the other straight to the Klipsch. Another option would be an inexpensive passive preamp (like a Bellari PP632 or Schiit SYS) so that all the sources go through it (that is, the Bellari) and split the output from the Bellari between the Yamaha and the Klipsch. Finally, if a low level output is available on the Yamaha use it into the Klipsch directly or through the passive preamp. (I would have to look up the data on your Yamaha.) I’ve been able to use the Bellari myself to integrate disparate pieces, and the SYS to level match components. But basically you need a way to separate the level into your sub from the level into your other speakers, and I believe that right now they’re both tied to the same volume control, and as you have discovered you’re never going to get there from where you are. Others with more experience in these matters can probably spec just the solution you need. I’m merely offering insights (conjecture?) and suggestions. But I do believe your pain is real. 🙂
I checked the specs on your Receiver: No Sub out or preamp out. You’re kind of stuck without a way of feeding the sub separately from the AV receiver you have. I’ll stick with my advice (for what it’s worth) to split the signal ahead of the Yamaha, or trade up to a more capable amp. Your receiver goes for $169.00, I think the Bellari goes for $99.00. A better receiver seems the more elegant solution to me. Another way to go is a passive sub with dual voice coils, so that speaker out goes to the sub and the left and right speakers are fed off the sub. In fact a wiser head than mine told me to wire my stand alone sub up that way when I was without a sub out for a while. You might want to try that first- wire Speaker A out to the sub and then wire left and right speakers to the sub and forget about Speaker B.
Paul is so right about this. Most systems can benefit hugely by adding a subwoofer and if you have enough money, get 2 of them. But, especially for a smaller room, it's better to spend the extra on a high quality subwoofer than two mediocre ones. High quality sub bass means low distortion, quick decay, linear response going down to near 20Hz or below with no very dominant resonances and a high sound pressure that can shake your room. Putting it in the right spot of the room and tuning it (if such option is available) can easily make or brake the experience. Hopefully PS Audio will make an awesome subwoofer some day.
Lets get the speakers first!
20hz? I've build the Zyklop-Sub 2 that can do that with minidsp but thats not self-evident. it also "only" goes up to 120hz. you also need good speakers that can still play well low.
Quick, well set-up pair of subs can definitely make or break a system
I think the diy guys can doit cheaper and better, building subs is much easier than speakers
@@Hammersmash3dFace I've bought SVS PB2000 which goes to 17hz.
Does it make sense to use a subwoofer with 2-channel audio sources (CD, vinyl) when there's no discreet LFE signal? Or does it depend on the speakers you have?
For a while, I used 2 subs in-line with a set of KEF bookshelf speakers and it was essentially a full-range stereo setup. It sounded great!
I want to know this as well, my sub has no high level inputs. My multichannel analog preamp has a sub input but it only comes on for surround with my analog outs of my HDMI dac. Never kicks on from the built in dsd dac for 2 ch. The HDMI is sending an LFE signal but my analog pramp for 2ch has no LFE signal-so how would i get the sub to work in 2ch also?
proper hardware with subwoofer outputs simply let you configure a crossover frequency where anything below goes to the subwoofer, no matter if stereo or 7.1
I will be honest I don't always understand the "tech" behind these videos but I do get alot from the as position and levels and such from them. So thanks Paul I've been a follower for a little while and real good information.
Also may depend on your source. Vinyl only goes down to about 40 hz and adding a sub to it could add a lot of vibration to the floor and the room in general which gets into the needle and sound reproduction suffers. So better be raised off the floor and well isolated at both ends.
dual is fine, that if a open ended option for subwoofers.
dual stereo subwoofers at left and right side, now there is where magic happens.
but don't forget to buy or build the right speakers, open baffle or sealed designs are best. don't want to compromise on sound quality when you have subwoofers.
The video cleared out everything. I wish to have many subwoofers but I have only one which is doing fine, though I have a feeling that two make more sense.
I think it depends on the quality of subwoofers. I tried 2 low end subs , I still didnt get the bass and sound I wanted. I bucked up and got a decent quality sub. Oh man. It put both cheap low budget subs to shame. Then I got 2 good quality subs, it made all the difference . Quality over quantity.
The quesiton is super generalized. Are we talking about sealed subs or ported subs?How about the room size?
I use a REL sub in mono mode and sit in the near field sitting about 5 feet away works
perfect for me
I'm nearfield at 5.5 feet and still manage to use 2 Rhthmik F12s. But one would do.
I have mono left/ right sub woofers ..more room filling sound..
Always wondered, what is the recording at Carnegie Hall that has the subway underneath?
I didn't know ps audio was making a streamer . When is it coming out? I'm looking at a Bluesound Node soon.
My ass over here with 4 Sony 8"ers that I got at Goodwill 😂
Single sub with room treatments is fine, IMO.
You're absolutely right.
But duals are better, and four is better yet.
It's;
Selective mode cancelation (what Toole calls it)
Which utilizes somewhat of an acoustic zone polarity (what I call it).
By simply sourcing subs left and right, fore and aft, destructive resonant obfuscation of bass detail is stripped away with no effort other that simple placement.
The 12dB in headroom is just a bonus.
(Whichever direction you spread them, that's the axial modes they address, ie., placed left side and right side addresses modal misbehavior of the side-to-side variety.
Similarly, placement in front and behind you addresses the front to back modal misbehavior.
Likewise, placement in each of the four quadrants addresses front-to-back, and side-to-side modal resonances)
This improves performance every time, without exception.
a bass speaker in low frequencies you can not very well hear the direction of where the sound is coming from.
I have 2 pcs. subwoofers box. not to have louder bass but to have stereo bass.
the best is 24db active bass filter to get the best possible bass sound.
not all subwoofers have nice and correct sound! the reason is as follows.
say you have a large speaker box with 2.1 system where you have a bass speaker at the bottom.
Then you also have a proper crossover filter that removes unwanted frequencies. A sepparat bass box often has only 12db. at a frequency and no lowering of unwanted frequencies. therefore, not all subwoofers have the correct sound type
Wich record is it? I need to buy it.
I have an SVS PB 1000 pro. As good as it is, and it's great, I have peaks and nulls. When I stand in a null, I can't hear the PB 1000 pro at all. None. With dual subs this will fix (not totally eliminate) the standing waves to a point where it's more encompassing through out the room. With that said, I have my second SVS 1000 pro on the way. Wooo hooo!
Love your videos! I have three 15’ velodyne powered subs stacked in the left back of my 7.1 home theater system. I know I have some dead spot in the room where you can’t perceive much of the bass. There’s really only one other location I could put one of them that’s to the far front right in the room. Is it worth moving one over there? Thx!
you would be better having one on each side at least .i found with 1 i also has hot and cold spots.as soon as i filled it with my svs 16 ultra on the opposite side ,it helped dramatically to fill in the dead places. after playing around with REW , phase etc and a lot of room deadening panels ,it sounds great. the panels made a massive difference as they would stop a lot of bounce.i strongly advise doing panels too.if the wife allows!
@@milkman100001 Much appreciated! Hard to explain, but really can't put one on the left side of the room. But, I take it that's better to at least have them at two locations, although back and front-right in my case? Thanks again!
The Emperor's new subwoofers, To go along with the Emperor's invisible speakers. Truly invisible audio equipment is hard to find, pun intended 🤣🤣
With my 4 IRS IIIa's, that's eight 10's. I prefer the way it sounds over my 15" in my truck. IMHO subs are just a way to replace something with 1 or 2 small boxes that would require many larger boxes reproduce. Like my PC's Boston Acoustics speakers (that are 20+ years old and rock by the way). Two little self powered Sats and a sub. Like I said, they sound pretty good and they sit in the same room as my main system so I'm not rose coloring them. You would have to push a set of Infinity RSa's to get the same sound. But again if I had my choice I would take many of the smaller then fewer of the larger. Like with my many 10's they just seem more snappier.
I have a sub on my A/V for the tv...But I have two woofers, on each Klipsch tower speaker, and I don't like all of that extremely low end from a sub, on my audio system!
The addition of a sub makes a huge difference to music playback. There used to be - maybe there still is? - a certain snobbishness about subwoofers only being useful in a home cinema environment, or where there's a desire for thumping rock, which is so wrong. I use a REL sub, connected at line level to my Arcam, and the difference it makes is glorious - cellos make your chest vibrate, the rolling drums of Khazad-Dum in Howard Shore's LOTR score rumble ominously through the chair, all without dominating the sound, just enhancing it, making the experience more visceral. I used to have two RELs, one per speaker, but the room couldn't cope - in my situation it was better to have one sub (off to the right, Paul!) positioned and adjusted for the room sizes and shape. Bliss.
I purchased a new stereo system with one subwoofer about 6 months ago. It sounded great and then some of my friends said I needed 2 subs. I did a lot of searching on the internet and found some said you need 2 subs and some said only 1 is needed. I purchased a second sub. WOW, my system sounds so much better with 2 subs that I can't believe the difference the second sub makes. I will never go back to only one sub!!! Paul I have my crossover frequency for my subs set to 80 hertz, what do you think, higher or lower?
Hey Paul.. what does FR in FR30 stand for?
Would you say that your new FR30’s are better that the IRS V’s?
Interesting comment about footfalls. I don't know if you knew Tim Marutani (Levinson dealer in SF and previously partners with Chris Hansen) but he had a recording he made on his personal ML5 tape deck of Eubie Blake at a recital in a south bay college hall. He threaded up that tape once and played it for me through the HQD demo system he had, which as you know had 2 Hartley 24" subs in refrigerator sized cabinets. Eubie was stomping time with his foot as he played and sang. That was the most amazing subwoofer sound I've ever heard. No dramatic booming or thumping noises. Just the concussive feel of what it sounds like in a hall when someone stamps on stage along with all the noise of shoe leather meeting wood.
Wha, ha, ha! Now I know there are a Queenstown in Australia too (Actually 2) - As a Sydney-sider, we only “care” about Queenstown New Zeeland - Best ski hangout!
The Ohm Walsh 2000 goes down to 32HZ and most reviewers say that is low enough for most music as to not need a subwoofer unless you want to feel the lowest notes of a pipe organ.
I donno why but everytime I watch these series and right at finish I look at the girl at the right smiling with glasses and I can't see anyone else!! who are you girl????
Totally agree Paul. A single subwoofer cannot reproduce the best bass imaging as duels can.
I have good bass coverage on about 2/3 of my couch. A 2nd sub is on my to do list, but not as high as other things.
I used a Devialet for a while (the entry level, not the HiFi worthy gold unfortunately) for a full range speaker the low end is insane, but the rest was a bit mediocre for me. Now I use them devialet as a subwoofer for my kef ls50 wireless. Brilliant sound
Great insight!
Was that a "Curly" or a "Groucho" imitation you did?
LOL
Rookie question…
Is the right side AKA right channel the right side from your sitting position or the right side from your system facing the sitting position.
I would imagine it’s the right side from the sitting position facing your system but just wanted to verify.
Always from your sitting position.
Sub woofers are becoming more and more frequent these days and yes, they are incredible, but only when used correctly.
It's all about matching the sub/s to your existing speakers AND the room they're in.
Off course, the other thing to consider is whether your room is acoustically sound and whether your speaker positioning (without sub/s) are correct.
With home cinema setups, it's a different scenario (although positioning and the room being acoustically sound is still prominent), but on the average 2 channel setup, in the average size room with the right system/speaker matching and acoustic treatment, one sub is more than enough.
If you find you're "not getting enough " from having one sub, you should look into its placement and setup. It's crossover frequency and phase settings play a massive part in how effectively it blends (or doesn't) with your system. Again, consider the size of the subwoofer too. There are some poor excuses for subs these days. Personally, I'd suggest a minimum of a 10" driver, however where possible I will try to use an 18". The size of the driver doesn't mean "it will be louder", it means it has the ability to get lower frequencies.
The main thing to remember is the whole point of having a "high quality setup" is that it replicates recordings and sources as true to the original as possible. Adding one or even multiple subs, without calibration or looking into original speaker placement, setup and of course your room acoustics, you're no better than that person in the 80s or 90s with the classic "eq smile" on their graphic equaliser
It is not about more bass! It's about ACTIVE absorption and reducing standing waves
Queenstown in Tasmania or Adelaide?
Fact
What about something like a buttkicker transducer that does subsonic(?) Frequencies. Do you make anything like that?
A bass shaker is basically the same thing as a Subwoofer... except that it doesnt move any air. It simply Vibrates at the same frequencies. You will Feel the footsteps if the shakers are close enough to you (most are installed under the viewing couch).
As a test, I ran two 15 watt bass shakers mounted under my PC chairs seat. I played an old arcade game called Gyruss.. in which when you fire a bullet, the sound of the bullet gets deeper and deeper as it travels into the screen. With my shakers on full power... the vibrations were so much.. that my monitor LOOKED Blurry! (Because my eyes were shaking too much). I turned them down a little bit, and all was gold. Id guess that a couch might want a bit more oomph, as it has to travel through a lot more material and framework.
But here is the thing... you might miss some of the SOUND of the missing sub frequencies... as again, its just the enhanced Vibrational effects. Bass shakers are more of an addition to a set of subs. And or... when you want to feel the vibrational effects of a sub... without waking up the entire house.
This is great for movies, but I always have it off for music, I find it distracting. I do have subs, built in my (diy, actively crossed) speakers.
🔊🔊
No worries mate😀
What is the impedance on each driver subwoofers. How do you have them wired up?
I go with a Kevlar 10-inch 16 Ohm's running as a dual mono.
How do you have your new speakers subwoofers wired up three in the cabinet, what are their impedance? Are they run as dual mono then into a single to give you 8ohms
That's the biggest mistake people buy with subwoofers for 2-channel listening they think they need to go big that's wrong keep them small but more of them so like two stacks of 10s 4 for 2 channel
This Brad bloke must be from Queenstown, South Australia, not Queenstown, Tasmania. No one from Queenie in Tassie would have a clue what all that was about, haha. Hello from Burnie. 😉
There is an unwritten rule which says
"In every organization there is someone who knows what is really going on. This person must be fired."
You probably don't want to be that person.
As for the Mercury record with the subway noise... I Don't want THAT much realism.
it is best to have NO subs; just buy some decent speakers
I disagree..... MOST decent speakers under $10,000 still struggle to do anything meaningful in the low-30's.
Have you ever heard good quality dual subs in a 2 channel system? You couldn't have.
It depends on the music you are listening to.