The blog posts mentioned in the video: mystical-trash-heap.blogspot.com/2022/10/on-dungeon-as-mythic-underworld.html saveversusallwands.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-dungeon-as-mythic-underworld.html
@@WizardJim I'm going to defend the pundit on this one a little bit. I think his point is that "dungeon" as a game device, have evolved and improved in design. I think he's saying they've become more coherent and rational over time. Having said that, this does not contradict the basic expert's position that a mythic underworld type of dungeon does not need to make any sense at all to us. It is part of a mythic world, those are often not rational. Irrational is not necessarily bad. I think both pundit and the basic expert are correct and the concepts can exist side-by-side without conflict.
I'm amazed at how tweaked everyone has gotten over this. The dungeon as underworld is literally in the title of volume three of the original rules. Any reading of the rules makes it clear that this can be an aspect of a dungeon, or not. Seems to me we can have it both ways, it can be a strange and outre piece of a mythical underworld, or I can just be a place where goblins live complete with latrines and kitchens. Seems to me Gygax was anticipating that people would make this their own, and he and the other original creators were encouraging that. Not really sure why this is even a debate.
Yeah that is our position but these people hate me so they have to strawman me. They are against anything I say, even if they really believe it themselves.
@@TheBasicExpert well if it's any consolation, you are getting exposure with your ideas to a whole new group of people who are interested in the controversy. Hopefully you see a bump in sales as a result.👍
I think the anger comes from the short you posted and commented in about this. You attack commenters, saying "NO" to anyone who says it could be something else
Even in Tolkien, the few times that the characters encounter something that might be called a dungeon, what do they find? Ancient, forgotten and otherworldly spirits in the Barrow-Downs, a degenerated remnant of an otherworldly terror in the form of a spider in Shelob's Lair. Quite literally, mythic underworlds.
@@gadellomagnollo1810 Brosr is just a style of play where time is 1-1. Basically if a week passes irl, a week passes in the game. Its how the game was ran by some older adnd dms including Gygax. So player characters and factions continue to do things while the players are not playing. That's all I know, I have no clue what the acronym BrOsr stands for.
Throughout his whole video Pundit seems to be projecting this image of TBE as some OSR fanatic who idolizes Gary Gygax and only uses the “dungeons as mythical underworld” concept as a flimsy excuse to play only randomly generated dungeons, all in attempt to make himself seem smarter and to shill his own stuff. Whereas if you listen to TBE talk about the concept for any length of time you’ll know he’s the exact opposite of that. Honestly I think Pundit just can’t comprehend how anything completely randomly generated can possibly be fun.
@@TheBasicExpert I thought being you claim the BroSR on some level I would have gotten an answer. If it came off as sarcasm that wasn't the intent, I literally don't get the BroSR.
@@zeevdrifter2707 Pundit wants to make them out to be this monolithic alt right group. They are just a bunch of guys who play D&D or D&D adjacent games a certain way.
The BroSR generally wants to run games using David Wesly's Braunstein concept. And feel that playing with that in addition to rules from Chainmail constitutes the complete, authentic, and/or superior game to conventional play. Hallmarks of BroSR play include high level patron players with domains shaping the land through enacting their own goals, players as individuals with their own goals as opposed to a party, multiple players and parties in a shared world working for their own goals which may be in opposition to one another, and above all using the 1:1 time rules described in the 1e DMG that in combination with the above makes a game world come alive without much need the GM to do much other than referee the game. Most of the BroSR focuses on 1e ADnD but there are people like myself and others doing games for Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Cyberpunk, Gangbusters and more. Really interesting stuff that will change how you think about RPGs.
Pan's Labyrinth by del Toro was there at the start of the OSR but some of us "BrOSR" were Grognards before that, from Jim Henson's Labyrinth days. Fantasy has always had Mythic Underworlds...lets look at the story of Minos and his Minotaur from Greek Myth. Wanting to have this as a foundation of your GAME (it's a game folks!) Is rich in tradition, agreeing with old school games is a choice and your mileage may differ. Do your own thing, If you feel threatened by us "BrOSR cultists" that is a you problem.
Call me crazy but dungeons to me have always fallen into several categories: 1. cave systems, 2. Lair Dungeons (for any humanoid race), 3. Ruins of any kind, 4. Ruins that have been converted into strongholds, and 5. Dungeons created by some powerful individual usually of evil alignment as a trap laden/monster laden place full of treasure with the intent to lure adventurers to their demise. I am not sure what crybaby pundit is on about. Complaining because some random generators can give you an encounter that doesn't make sense? Well pundit do what any rational person does and roll until you get a logical encounter. The fact that he cannot do that is sad and proof he shouldn't be running or instructing anyone on how to run a game.
@@TheOGGMsAdventures it is hard to argue with experts. 👍 I'm a pretty hardcore 4D roleplay guy, and I'd be the first to say I think that's the right way to play, butt in the current environment, I think promoting some calm and acceptance is way more important.
I'm baffled as to why any of this is controversial. I've always understood that there's nothing to prevent different types of dungeons (lair dungeons, etc.) co-existing. It's just so weird to me that this is a fight *now* after having been familiar with the idea for, yes, about 20 years. So many products that feature mythic underworlds would also have different types of dungeons available too. The Hill Cantons played with this idea and tied it into Law v. Chaos, the alignment system and that there are parts of the world where Chaos is in control and it fundamentally alters the way the world works in this areas. Shit, even the manga and anime Delicious In Dungeon, is the most recent example in mass media with mainstream reach.
The underworld as a dungeon... is older than the word dungeon. Which is french for a heavily protected tower(donjon) and being french is its own kind of hell. Even if we don't mean dungeon as in a room you can't get out of, but a room that serves as a test for an adventurer that goes back to atleast grim brothers. Dantes inferno is very prison like so that's the other kind of dungeon. But the general notion was around even before that. Argonauts sailing into hades. No one absolutely no one gets credit for being the first here. It was inexorable.
The lack of an obvious plot or patter to a dungeon doesn't seem like a bug to me. It seems more like a feature. Even if the ultimate explanation is "this is the mythic underworld and it supernaturally wants you dead," players will come up with explanations to fill in the blanks. Why are their bugbears where there used to be goblins? Why is there a new trap in a corridor traversed two weeks ago? In a way that gives the underworld more horror. The players might be trying to make sense of something where there really is no sense. When the DM or Adventure Writer maps out all the reasons the dungeon is the way it is ahead of time, it leads to a very stale experience. This dungeon is full of skeletons because it's a crypt. Wow neat. If anything it ends up feeling more gamey and immersion breaking because the world becomes very very static. When unexpected stuff happens, the table fills in the blanks and this is what makes the world feel alive. If the dungeon makes too much sense, nothing unexpected happens. As a side note, I really like the idea of the mythic underworld being spatially different. Maybe you go in, travel a few rooms over, then come up miles away in the overworld. Or maybe you travel for days in the underworld and come up only a little bit away from where you started. Maybe that's how teleportation spells work.
@@darkwielder2088 no we did. Did he or did he not make the claim that our position is that lol so random dungeons are the mythic world? That was the whole thrust of his video which lead to, "by my books if you want a real mythical underworld." Come on man. Don't be like Pundit.
@@TheBasicExpert You'd think I wouldn't have to explain the RUclips algorithm to someone with four thousand subscribers, but from the quality of your videos and how you present yourself in the comments section, maybe I do. Also, your whole channel is just you complaining. Be careful in the glass house, young man, you'll get cut.
The blog posts mentioned in the video:
mystical-trash-heap.blogspot.com/2022/10/on-dungeon-as-mythic-underworld.html
saveversusallwands.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-dungeon-as-mythic-underworld.html
Pundo says this while he has his Arrows of Indra onscreen, which literally features a mythic underworld. 😂
His mythic underworld is more mythic than your underworld
@@spiritualgodwarrior I have the best mythic underworld. Nobody has a better mythic underworld than me👌
@@WizardJim I'm going to defend the pundit on this one a little bit. I think his point is that "dungeon" as a game device, have evolved and improved in design. I think he's saying they've become more coherent and rational over time. Having said that, this does not contradict the basic expert's position that a mythic underworld type of dungeon does not need to make any sense at all to us. It is part of a mythic world, those are often not rational. Irrational is not necessarily bad. I think both pundit and the basic expert are correct and the concepts can exist side-by-side without conflict.
I'm amazed at how tweaked everyone has gotten over this. The dungeon as underworld is literally in the title of volume three of the original rules. Any reading of the rules makes it clear that this can be an aspect of a dungeon, or not. Seems to me we can have it both ways, it can be a strange and outre piece of a mythical underworld, or I can just be a place where goblins live complete with latrines and kitchens. Seems to me Gygax was anticipating that people would make this their own, and he and the other original creators were encouraging that. Not really sure why this is even a debate.
Yeah that is our position but these people hate me so they have to strawman me. They are against anything I say, even if they really believe it themselves.
@@TheBasicExpert well if it's any consolation, you are getting exposure with your ideas to a whole new group of people who are interested in the controversy. Hopefully you see a bump in sales as a result.👍
I think the anger comes from the short you posted and commented in about this.
You attack commenters, saying "NO" to anyone who says it could be something else
Even in Tolkien, the few times that the characters encounter something that might be called a dungeon, what do they find? Ancient, forgotten and otherworldly spirits in the Barrow-Downs, a degenerated remnant of an otherworldly terror in the form of a spider in Shelob's Lair. Quite literally, mythic underworlds.
"The BrOSR is a cult!" - a guy who is literally an occultist.
@@KlausWulfenbach who is the brosr
@@gadellomagnollo1810 Brosr is just a style of play where time is 1-1. Basically if a week passes irl, a week passes in the game. Its how the game was ran by some older adnd dms including Gygax. So player characters and factions continue to do things while the players are not playing. That's all I know, I have no clue what the acronym BrOsr stands for.
That's not what any of that means. You can just Google it.
*Guy who posted borderline pornographic videos of himself rubbing slime all over his wife whilst she was visibly uncomfortable with the whole thing.
I just wish people didnt think thier way is the best and only way to play. If u and your players are having fun then your doing it right.
Throughout his whole video Pundit seems to be projecting this image of TBE as some OSR fanatic who idolizes Gary Gygax and only uses the “dungeons as mythical underworld” concept as a flimsy excuse to play only randomly generated dungeons, all in attempt to make himself seem smarter and to shill his own stuff.
Whereas if you listen to TBE talk about the concept for any length of time you’ll know he’s the exact opposite of that.
Honestly I think Pundit just can’t comprehend how anything completely randomly generated can possibly be fun.
I don't really understand what the BroSR is about, and I generally like Pundits stuff.
But this is pretty goofy of him to pick this fight.
@@zeevdrifter2707 they are cult I guess. 🤷🏽
@@TheBasicExpert I thought being you claim the BroSR on some level I would have gotten an answer.
If it came off as sarcasm that wasn't the intent, I literally don't get the BroSR.
@@zeevdrifter2707 Pundit wants to make them out to be this monolithic alt right group. They are just a bunch of guys who play D&D or D&D adjacent games a certain way.
And I wasn't trying to be sarcastic myself. Apologies.
The BroSR generally wants to run games using David Wesly's Braunstein concept. And feel that playing with that in addition to rules from Chainmail constitutes the complete, authentic, and/or superior game to conventional play. Hallmarks of BroSR play include high level patron players with domains shaping the land through enacting their own goals, players as individuals with their own goals as opposed to a party, multiple players and parties in a shared world working for their own goals which may be in opposition to one another, and above all using the 1:1 time rules described in the 1e DMG that in combination with the above makes a game world come alive without much need the GM to do much other than referee the game. Most of the BroSR focuses on 1e ADnD but there are people like myself and others doing games for Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Cyberpunk, Gangbusters and more. Really interesting stuff that will change how you think about RPGs.
oooh we are a cult now! very cool ... lol
Welcome brother.
Pan's Labyrinth by del Toro was there at the start of the OSR but some of us "BrOSR" were Grognards before that, from Jim Henson's Labyrinth days. Fantasy has always had Mythic Underworlds...lets look at the story of Minos and his Minotaur from Greek Myth. Wanting to have this as a foundation of your GAME (it's a game folks!) Is rich in tradition, agreeing with old school games is a choice and your mileage may differ. Do your own thing, If you feel threatened by us "BrOSR cultists" that is a you problem.
Bro Adjacent = Brojacent?
Call me crazy but dungeons to me have always fallen into several categories: 1. cave systems, 2. Lair Dungeons (for any humanoid race), 3. Ruins of any kind, 4. Ruins that have been converted into strongholds, and 5. Dungeons created by some powerful individual usually of evil alignment as a trap laden/monster laden place full of treasure with the intent to lure adventurers to their demise. I am not sure what crybaby pundit is on about. Complaining because some random generators can give you an encounter that doesn't make sense? Well pundit do what any rational person does and roll until you get a logical encounter. The fact that he cannot do that is sad and proof he shouldn't be running or instructing anyone on how to run a game.
Hiw is this any different then the idea of the mythical forest
@@TheOGGMsAdventures silly OG GM, Forest are made of wood and dungeons are made of Stone. Totally different.🤦♂️😅
@@crapphone7744 what if my dungeon is mafe of wood
@@TheOGGMsAdventures then you're playing the game wrong 🤣
@@crapphone7744 i know im playing wrong j scott garriby, pundit, clowndoor, shoner have all told me so
@@TheOGGMsAdventures it is hard to argue with experts. 👍 I'm a pretty hardcore 4D roleplay guy, and I'd be the first to say I think that's the right way to play, butt in the current environment, I think promoting some calm and acceptance is way more important.
I'm baffled as to why any of this is controversial. I've always understood that there's nothing to prevent different types of dungeons (lair dungeons, etc.) co-existing. It's just so weird to me that this is a fight *now* after having been familiar with the idea for, yes, about 20 years. So many products that feature mythic underworlds would also have different types of dungeons available too. The Hill Cantons played with this idea and tied it into Law v. Chaos, the alignment system and that there are parts of the world where Chaos is in control and it fundamentally alters the way the world works in this areas. Shit, even the manga and anime Delicious In Dungeon, is the most recent example in mass media with mainstream reach.
@@anthonybird546 it's because I said it. TBE Derangment Syndrome.
@@TheBasicExpert What an insane thing to say. I had to Google that term, it's so terminally-logged in and stupid.
Thanks for the links.
The underworld as a dungeon... is older than the word dungeon. Which is french for a heavily protected tower(donjon) and being french is its own kind of hell.
Even if we don't mean dungeon as in a room you can't get out of, but a room that serves as a test for an adventurer that goes back to atleast grim brothers.
Dantes inferno is very prison like so that's the other kind of dungeon. But the general notion was around even before that. Argonauts sailing into hades.
No one absolutely no one gets credit for being the first here. It was inexorable.
The lack of an obvious plot or patter to a dungeon doesn't seem like a bug to me. It seems more like a feature. Even if the ultimate explanation is "this is the mythic underworld and it supernaturally wants you dead," players will come up with explanations to fill in the blanks. Why are their bugbears where there used to be goblins? Why is there a new trap in a corridor traversed two weeks ago? In a way that gives the underworld more horror. The players might be trying to make sense of something where there really is no sense.
When the DM or Adventure Writer maps out all the reasons the dungeon is the way it is ahead of time, it leads to a very stale experience. This dungeon is full of skeletons because it's a crypt. Wow neat.
If anything it ends up feeling more gamey and immersion breaking because the world becomes very very static. When unexpected stuff happens, the table fills in the blanks and this is what makes the world feel alive. If the dungeon makes too much sense, nothing unexpected happens.
As a side note, I really like the idea of the mythic underworld being spatially different. Maybe you go in, travel a few rooms over, then come up miles away in the overworld. Or maybe you travel for days in the underworld and come up only a little bit away from where you started. Maybe that's how teleportation spells work.
Y’all didn’t really address the point he was making. Y’all showed that sure the idea was around 20 years ago but not 40-50 years ago.
@@darkwielder2088 no we did. Did he or did he not make the claim that our position is that lol so random dungeons are the mythic world?
That was the whole thrust of his video which lead to, "by my books if you want a real mythical underworld."
Come on man. Don't be like Pundit.
Also one of the books in 0e is literally called "the underworld". I called out a other illiterate on stream for making the same claim you are.
Kinda of silly to see grown men argue over stupid elf games.
Yeah, this seems like really silly drama.
Why do you act like this hasn't been a thing since 1974?
@@TheBasicExpert And it's been silly since 1974. What's your point?
@@TheRealKLTWhat is your point? Why are you here? Just to complain?
@@TheBasicExpert You'd think I wouldn't have to explain the RUclips algorithm to someone with four thousand subscribers, but from the quality of your videos and how you present yourself in the comments section, maybe I do. Also, your whole channel is just you complaining. Be careful in the glass house, young man, you'll get cut.
RPGPundit aka Kasimir Urbanski aka John Tarnowski is currently wanted on an outstanding fatal hit-and-run charge in Canada
Where does that info come from as thats a new twist out there. Need some citations here
This would explain his bizarre move to a tropical foreign country. But we need more info.
Leftoid mental gymnastics is amazing to see.