I have to say, after a week since this vid has been uploaded I'm very happy to see the positive response. Given all the BS that's happened in the world of comic books over the last six or seven years, it's still cool to see so many people in the comments passionate about these characters and the stories they've been involved in. So, to everyone who commented on this vid even if we disagreed, thanks so much for watching and being part of the discussion! I'll definitely do more comic book stuff in the future!
While it's heckin cool and justified to kill gangs in the lore, it is actually not good to do so in reality. Not necessarily because it is immoral, but because court cases unveil a lot of evidence to the public that would remain hidden if you had just killed the suspect. Even when the justice system fails to punish violators, people are able to see why several years later. That's why it was bad for Epstein to die. He's definitely an evil guy that the Punisher would have killed, but no one knew about his extent of his evil actions or his evil collaborators. If writers were good, they would do a story about how the Punisher killing people worsens stuff for everyone in the long run.
I want to know your thoughts on the character of Blade being called a genocidal maniac who wants to wipe out the whole vampire race because of the grudge he has against them, and him not really being a good guy or a hero but rather a villain? Also the vampires not being portrayed in a more complex and gray area in the Marvel comics as well as its adaptations. 'Cause I've seen some people say that.
the best punisher quote imo Daredevil- “frank when you kill a murderer the number of murderers doesnt drop” Frank “ Thats why I dont stop” it sums up his character perfectly
If Batman adopted Frank's M.O. Gotham would be a much safer place to live. It'd be a pretty simple agreement for his rogues' gallery. "If you rob a shop, I'll put you in jail, but if you kill someone, I'll put you in the ground."
One of my favorite punisher moments was after rescuing a baby from a baby trafficking ring that killed its mother he gave the infant back to his crackhead dad and said in no uncertain terms take care of that kid or punisher would be back. Mercy, and justice.
I admittedly haven't read any Punisher comics, but even I know that calling him a villain is a gross oversimplification of who he is as a character. Anyone could lose faith in the criminal justice system after seeing their own family gunned down in front of them. That's one way to describe Frank: a man who has lost faith in the system due to personal tragedy. His violent war on crime is his way of delivering justice where the system cannot due to factors like corruption and incompetence.
26 дней назад+32
Great description of the character. He's a true vigilante, dealing out his own brand of justice that the courts/legal system have failed to provide.
It's no accident that he was created as an inspiration of Reactionary/Vigilante Movies of the late 1970s and early to mid 80s. Namely Taxi Driver and Death Wish. He tapped into that same visceral need for brutal justice. Outwardly you should not praise him but there's that part of you ( though you know is fundamentally wrong) that roots for him.
Even though I do agree with most of what you said the only thing I’d disagree with is saying that frank does this because of his family or the justice system, I think frank does what he does because he enjoys it, if u read punisher max it’ll show you that frank has always been the punisher even before the war and especially after. It also shows how right before his family was killed he asked for a divorce from his wife, frank definitely loved his family but then dying was just the excuse he uses to do what he truly loves to do. I don’t think he’s ever had faith in the justice system tbh. (Sorry if this came off rude or condescending not my intent, just wanted to add my thoughts)
@@w.t.dproductions8255I think Frank did enjoy the killing but knew that it wasn't right, that it wasn't how things were supposed to be. That's why he idolized Captain America and he hoped that his kindhearted family would be able to help him escape his need to kill. But then when they died, his lifeline snapped and he tripled down on his dark impulses.
Unfortunately, idiots think he's bad because he kills folk instead of putting them in jail for them to escape by next week and repeat the cycle all over again like Batman & Spider-Man.
Tell that to every superhero he's tried to murder, like Spider-Man, or Daredevil, or Captain America, or bunch of the Avengers, or a shit ton of the X-Men on multiple occasions. Frank is a piece of shit who immediately tries to kill just about every superhero he ever even sees that disagrees with how he does things.
Also, don't forget how in issue #63 of Punisher Max, Frank was ready to kill himself when he thought that he killed a little girl. This goes to show that, if he ever thinks that he crossed the line and brakes his code, then Frank thinks he's no better than the scum he kills, and how he must punish himself. Sure, Frank kills mobsters, drug dealers, rapists and any other scum in NYC, but he wouldn't even go as far as to murder a little girl. Especially not after what happened with his family. Frank is one of the few Marvel characters I really like, and it's because of scenes like that.
More like US Soldiers used the symbol during the 2000s while in the middle east. Which was tasteful. Now a bunch of beer-bellied right wingers took it and now fancy themselves as ultra macho, masculine heroes for America. Despite invading the capitol building... I'm willing to be that most of them are usually just alcoholics with toxic masculine father figures, and unhappy marriages if they even are married lol.
If killing pedos and Grapists makes you a villain then I wouldn't want punisher to be a hero. He fills a very necessary void in marvel. While the costumes are up in space fighting gods, demons and monsters punisher is down here protecting the little people from the everyday monsters
"While the costumes are up in space fighting gods," I'm pretty sure the majority of the Marvel universe stays on earth fighting for the little guy. But who knows
@@Tabletopcloud20 c listers sure but they put killers in jail to do it again later as per comic book bullshit. When punisher puts villains down the only way they get back up is if the writers play god for them In which case Frank will just do it again
Frank Castle a.k.a. The Punisher, is pretty much meant to be Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan, a.k.a. The Executioner, in comic book form. His only mission is bringing Old Testament brutal judgment to those who do evil. He's not here to save lives. He's here to end them. The lives of evil individuals in particular. He lives and breathes this mission 24/7. His dedication to his craft is next level. The fact remains is that Frank Castle is The Grim Reaper in human form for those who think that their number isn't up.
Frank Castle is basically Paul Kersey from Death Wish. Especially when they frame Castle as trying to be a normal civvie post war that just gets caught up.
"I'm not their judge. I'm not their jury. They've already been judged by the rules of civilization. I am their executioner." Mack Bolan That said, Mack Bolan was both the Executioner, and Sergeant Mercy. He would put his life on the line to protect the innocent, but he was death to the wicked. He also didn't believe that anyone else should follow his path. That he saw his war as necessary did not mean that he thought anyone else should do it, or that what he did should ever be legal. If he was ever in a position where he had to kill a cop, a "soldier of the same side" in his mind, or die, he'd choose to die. The only way he could differentiate himself from the evil he hunted, in his own mind, was to have a line he'd never cross.
@@A-TALKING-TOASTER if anything Batman is one of the greatest heroes out there, he’s someone who sacrifices whatever normal life he could have ever had to preventing the world from having any one else go through what he did, his refusal to kill is an admirable trait, not a flaw! I love violent Anti Heroes like Wolverine, the Ghost Rider,Spawn and Punisher but Batman only uses as much force as necessary(admittedly I do find taking a life in self defense to be justified, though I admire that Batman is able to take down criminals without losing his humanity and soul)! The idea that he’s “a Rich guy who likes beating the poor” is also especially egregious when you consider the number of mob bosses and wealthy villains he taken on including the Penguin,Black Mask,Two Face,Carmine Falcone,Ra’s Al Ghul,Salvatore Maroni,Killer Moth,The Ventriloquist,Hush,etc. Furthermore these same people also ignore that Bruce regularly actually tries to make Gotham a better place by funding non corrupt candidates and dealing with poverty!(Bruce Wayne himself May to pretend be a lazy git but he treats his employees well enough)
To say and mean an opinion *THIS* stupid, you'd have to be... .... .... .... every brainrot leftist who works at DC and Marvel and/or the SJW lunatics on twitter
@@freman007 and? Spider-Man has some equally heinous villains who have committed grotesque acts! Furthermore, it’s not Batman’s job to be judge,jury and executioner!
Frank Castle as the Punisher is at times a vigilante, while at other an antihero. He brute force "the end justifies the means" that he essentially let his targets get a taste of their own medicines, or getting himself dirty wherein the junstice system wouldn't, not shouldn't. He's not a CIA operative material because he belongs to the FBI's SWAT team as a blunt instrument, however he won't go rouge unlike CIA's paramilitary groups because he'll always respect Steve Rogers.
And then there's that weird group that only seem to think he's a villain because he's willing to kill. I've legit bumped into people who think antihero/villain just means character the character is willing to kill their opponents.
@@DigimontamerB These are the also the SAME people who HATE the "EVIL"United States..& want to " BURN IT ALL DOWN" Meantime... their ENTIRE existence is ONLY made possible by all TECHNOLOGY created by the "EVIL CAPITALISTS" Basically..if the "REVOLUTION" means going WITHOUT the INTERNET for a couple hours... they're OUT! 🤣🤣
I’m so sick of hearing comic channels saying he’s a full villain No he’s the one who gets things done These days people defend the criminals more than the victims
@@jeremyallen5974Punisher treats the symptom but worsen the disease. Batman wants to fix the disease. The disease is lack of faith in the system, a lack of faith in the institution. The disease is a lack of civilization and decency. Batman by doing what he does both as a vigilante and philanthropist works to restore that faith. He works to fix the justice system, to fix the government of his city, he works to educate and teach people decency by example, and while as Batman teach them that evil will not go unpunished. But the Punisher, by taking Justice into his own hands and be judge jury and executioner destroys the public's faith in the system even more. He doees fix the symptoms in the short term but he makes the disease worse. Accelerating the societies descend to total anarchy and madness.
Deadpool isn’t really similar to Frank, he’s a mercenary who’ll do nearly anything he’s paid to do except hurting kids, and honestly Deadpool is much closer to being a villain than Punisher is
@@aaronbosen6743 Due to the nature of the Punisher, if he's to have a rogue's gallery, it has to be a rogue's gallery that can at least fight him to a standstill or keep surviving.
In an age where modern writers try to push the narrative that there are no villains only "heroes on their own journeys" that are victims of society; of course the same kind of people would argue that someone like Frank would be a true "villain"
I hate that narrative so much. No some folks are just villain. That’s why joker is the most popular villain of all time. Real life villains are more like Joker than Magneto.
@@Linklex7 no joker is a victim. Watch joker 2019. We live in a society. 😂😂😂😂 I can't believe the movies literally took the victim joker idea fans made (yeah killing joke inspired it but Ledger fans most didn't read that) and made it real. Secondly I can't believe "we live in a society" has officially been said by Jared leto joker
@TheosophicalMusings they can't. That'd the one group people can't defend. Thanos has muscles and is cool always wins. Joker is cool or sympathetic depending if Ledger or pheonix. A lot of these people defending villains are just du(hello youtube dont ban me)b men. The other defend people like Killmonger for bringing up real issues. They don't actually think about hoe he took it to the extreme because it's an issue that affects them. Same way a du(youtube censor)b man who was divorced unfairly by his assets being taken away may justify a man who was cheated on foing awful things.
The only ones who consider anti heroes as villains are the absolute losers on Reddit that are somehow weirdly anti cop yet anti vigilantism at the same time
@@markstriker925 Frank is mentally obsessed with war. Frank’s family’s death did not create The Punisher, his family’s death let the Punisher out of the cage. Frank always loved being a warrior. The only thing that scares Frank Castle is not fighting a war anymore. Frank never knew how to live a simple and comfortable life. The Punisher is a tragedy because being a warrior is the only thing he knows how to do in life. Frank was going to learn how to be a father and husband but that chance was taken from him.
@@petermj1098 That's MAX Frank. It's a decent, unique take but it is not 616 Frank. Atleast until Jason Aaron said otherwise, but none of us wanna talk about that, nor should we.
@@FrancisCastiglione Dude in the Punisher’s first appearance he tries to murder Spider-Man for killing Norman Osborn of all characters and he worked with the villain the Jackal to do so. Yeah Frank realized his wrong doing but it does not change the fact Frank was always written to have his war on criminals go out of control at times since his first appearance.
I worked in law enforcement, served in the military, am Christian, believe in the constitution, and so on. The punisher is an interesting character and in my top 5 comic characters. I don’t agree with every aspect of the character but at the same time that’s a ridiculous expectation. I don’t agree with everything Iron Man or Captain America do either. Even they disagree as it turns out. That’s how stories work. It’s interest and entertainment not a hive mind where we must all be in agreement.
Best comment. People have it so easy now that they make up their own problems and complain about things that everyone was ok with before. Punisher is not a villain, he's just portrayed that way by people who blow thinga out of proportion, especially about the skull logo on law enforcement and military
@@spartanswhatisyourprofessi2825 the skull logo thing irritates me in particular. When I deployed, we were told we couldn’t have the skull (of any kind due to similarity) incorporated into moral patches, shirts, etc., but we ended up with thanos gauntlet patches…
@@MrRAGE-md5rj But does anyone with a Punisher skull actually read the Punisher comics? That's the problem with the "comics pros" who take issue with those who have the skull because they think it's cool, and in response change the comics completely. Very few people read the comics. Very few people read comics at all. They're not wearing the skull because they've read the comics, or know any more about Frank Castle than they'd get from a Google search. They wear it because it's cool.
@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 What's edgy about agreeing with his methods? It's not like he goes after innocents. And take it from me. Based on my own life experiences, I can say with 100% certainty that certain people cannot change. People like EDP for example, will never change. And I believe that's one reason why the character is very cathartic to people
The Punisher isn't a villain. But he's not a hero, like Batman or Spider-Man/Superman (for example) are. He doesn't value human life, compassion and the possibility for rehabilitation and redemption above everything like Batman. He doesn't do what's right simply because he has the ability to, and he has a responsibility to use his strength to help others like Spider-Man or Superman. He takes the worst and irredeemable criminals off the street permanently, preventing them from ever hurting anyone ever again. Is this the right thing? Depends on who you ask. He has different morals and methods, but is he a villain? Not at all.
Castle does value human life, and compassion, but he also understands that "compassion to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." If you leave a criminal on the streets to do evil, then the innocent will suffer. If you have the means to stop that criminal, but do not, then you are culpable in their crimes. What he does is "the right thing", but it is not the "legal thing" and neither Frank Castle, nor his literary inspiration Mack Bolan, would ever want it to be legal. Like the Sin Eater, they carry the burden alone, so that others may live without it.
Nice summation of the Punisher character. I think he was just used as a dog whistle by certain parties who couldn't reall articulate what the character was about.
I always thought he was used cause people just really liked his logo I don’t really think it had anything to do with the punisher more so just the cool skull he put on stuff
As a huge Punisher fan myself, thank you! 🙂 It's awesome to see other people understanding the character, it's not that hard to see the difference between an antihero & a villain! And what they did to Frank Castle in The Hand storyline by Jason Aaron was disrespectful & insulting! The "new" backstory was such bullsh*t & they ruined the character! That storyline was One More Day godawful!
I believe a lot, the confusion as to whether or not Frank Castle is a villain comes from the fact that he is a vigilante & typifies the idea of what a vigilante is in a way that a lot of superheroes don’t. many of them while wearing a mask will still work alongside law enforcement & allow for do process whereas the punisher actively seeks justice outside the justice system as he is someone who has been failed by the system.
Now this needed to be said, in all my time reading comics, The punisher, Dredd, Hellboy and Etrigan have always been favourites of mine. But to see the Punishers name dragged in the mud has been sad to see.
I've been a Punisher fan since grade school. I grew up watching 80s and 90s action movies with Schwarzenegger and Stallone. The Punisher of the comics I grew up on was basically an action movie hero like that, killing bad guys mercilessly. Arnold's character in Commando was basically a more charming Jason Voorhees, but what makes him a hero is who he killed (people that kidnapped his daughter). That type of extreme violent movie hero is still popular (John Wick killed people who worked for a guy who killed his dog), so it would make sense for the Punisher to still be a popular comic book character. Compare the Punisher to many of the grim 'n gritty superheroes of the 90s, and he's no more violent than them. I don't see anyone criticizing Spawn like they do the Punisher. I love Spawn, too. Remember what he did to Billy Kincaid? Like the Punisher, Spawn was military before he became a violent vigilante superhero wearing mostly black and frowning a lot. It's because rightwing nuts hijacked the Punisher symbol, not Spawn's, that you hear any criticism about the former and not the latter. I often see a Punisher skull on someone's pickup truck and wonder if they ever even picked up a Punisher comic book.
Probably cause punisher is taken much more seriously. People mainly just see those other characters as “mindless fun action where you turn your brain off”
Well, it's unlikely they've read a Punisher comic book, because hardly anyone does read comic books these days. People like the Punisher skull because it represents something that "the little guy" recognizes as a good thing, that criminals with enough wealth and power to ignore the justice system cannot ignore the man in black. That vengeance will be done on the wicked.
15:57: This is a good distinction between Frank Castle and say, Dexter Morgan. They do virtually the same thing, but their motivations differ. Frank Castle is at his core a Marine at war, while Dexter at his core is no less a serial killer than the others he has killed.
Marvel and the media don't like him because of what he represents. And why would they, look at what's happening across the pond. It's coming here eventually.
I think that Marvel in general leans towards anti-hero archetypes; hell a good 75% have killed at least 1 person without mind control or other mitigating factors. The reason Frank is looked at differently? Every single kill he does is possible by a human in our world. That changes how normies and the typical heroic reader views him. I *do* view Frank as mentally ill however that makes him more interesting. Then add my view of Christianity and my own beliefs "Justice is mine sayeth the lord" and I can't get behind Frank's self-appointed mission. However I don't think he's evil; just broken, and that makes him compelling.
Everything is part of God's plan, though. Frank Castle may well be one of His instruments for justice, especially if he's right about a corrupt system that espouses the socialist principle of punishing dissent, not crime.
As a former Marine and soon to be police officer it isn’t that cops/military are held at a low standard in term of the argument. It’s that neither a marine or cops should wish to emulate a man who conducts vigilante justice. It spits on the face of what those institutions are about.
the thing is that those institutions aren't doing a good job for the people so Punisher becomes a symbol of the job being done and the monsters being kept in check. y'all in america already have a crime problem in some places now imagine, or just make some research, on 3rd country's like Brazil where crime is rampant and brutal, like the favelas where people live in sub-human conditions and gangs are the law there, and even the police/politicians being so corrupt they they help the gangs. people here only have ficticinal characters like Frank to express their anger towards their situation, or at least the ones in that situation who hate it think like that because unfortunatly there are people that aspire to be criminals.
Going back to Castle's inspiration, Mack Bolan, the Executioner, Don Pendleton would agree with you completely. That, in the stories, Mack saw his war as necessary, didn't mean he ever wanted anyone else to fight it. He certainly didn't think that his methods should be legal, or be engaged in by law enforcement. He saw himself as "executing" those who, by rights, should be judged in the system, but were beyond the reach of the law.
Im also glad you brought up jussie smollet. What if the two guys caught by security footage werent his acquiantances and were nobodies??? Its scary to think how jussie would've acted if 2 different random dudes would've been suspects and how people would've treated innocent guys.
As someone who has read every single Punisher comic, and has been a fan of the character for over 30 years, I agree that Frank becoming the head of The Hand was an odd choice. Even more odd than him being a mafia don in the John Ostrander run. I think the main problem people have isn't "people I don't like have adopted the skull" (which I think is more often the case than them being an actual fan of the character or the comics), but the fact that people who very much represent the system that Frank is essentially an indictment of have adopted it. Frank and his skull aren't a symbol of justice, they're a symbol of a failure of the legal system, which is almost word-for-word what Gerry Conway has said about the matter.
Yet that even makes it make more sense when you see those people are going to war it isn't for justice. Those cops that are barely putting a dent into crime because crooked DA and Judges are letting people out unless the criminal basically records their crimes and uploads to IG or Tiktok... They already bear the US flag, that's why they also bear the skull.
And cops that believe in punishment for criminals are often left wanting when a leftoid judge or DA releases criminals that most assuredly belong behind bars or in the chair. So you could say that cops adopting the skull is valid as they too are often the victims of a broken system.
Lawful Good. That he doesn't follow the law of the land, doesn't mean that he doesn't follow the Law on his own heart. Castle is a dark Paladin, bringing justice to those who are considered above the law.
I would only call Punisher a villain if he hypothetically did become so unhinged he gets innocents and other heroes killed intentionally (Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe does not count). That said, Frank could send Batman a video tape of him executing the Joker upon listing the Grand Canyon length list of crimes he’s committed and I would salute Frank for doing the universe a favor. I’m convinced that the main reason the “Punisher is a villain” discourse even exists now is because certain Twitter freaks who hijacked Marvel can’t stand the fact “the other people” like a character that they get with.
Punisher is labeled as a villain because of his actual motives. The fact he does it because he enjoys killing, using his family as an excuse to do what he already wanted to do while they were alive against a pool of victims he could pretend was justified. For reference, he murdered stiltman after the guy had fully gone straight and was trying to be a hero, then proceeded to clear out his entire FUNERAL. Then he was intending to murder 3 petty thieves that stole stiltman's suit on christmas eve where RHINO of all people had to step in and stop it.
@@loveandfrenchtoast8780 You're thinking about the current iteration. The real Frank does not enjoy killing but feels that he has to because to many scumbags who aren't supers get away with crimes. He wants to stop innocent people from feeling the same pain he felt when he lost his family and isn't afraid to get his hands dirty because the justice system failed him. And in his crossover with Archie when he had the criminal dead to rights, he decides to let him go for now because he isn't willing to expose the people of Riverdale to the kind of violence he's used to. The ones who say that he enjoys killing already had low opinions of him from the start and never understood who Frank was to his core.
Why are yall acting like the joker is the only criminal. It never ends if batman takes one life. He would have to take the l(youtube is awesome please don't ban me) ives of every villain
Batman being incapable of stopping himself from killing every petty criminal after executing the Joker just makes him look weak and undisciplined, something that we know by now should not be the case. Unless you're of the opinion that he's a dangerous madman only barely kept in check by his code, but if he's disciplined enough to not let Joker die for all this time you'd think he'd be disciplined enough to not go after the other members of his rogue gallery who have done far, far less heinous things and caused him far less personal pain.
Punishers done more to make Marvel Universe a better place than Batman or Superman could ever do for DC comics because of their no kill rule. You’re never going to see a Superman comic where he bodies a child molestor. No matter how much he may deserve it.
@@billyboleson2830 He specifically went out of his way to not beat the child abuser in front of his abused child because he thought it would send the wrong message to the child that violence is right. He does internally monologue about how much he'd like to though.
@@youtubestudiosucks978 He dragged him to the police and had the wife and child put under police protection. He gave the child his personal phone number and told him to call every single day until the child no longer feels like it, then looked sternly at the father and said "or else there will be consequences"
Absolutely not he has done worse in the long term. Society needs order and state. Anarchy is dumb, and he has done just that making people be more anarcistic and barbaric. Batman works as a Knight, protecting his fiefdom and teachs his peasants that as long as they work honestly the system he sets forth will protect them. People do crime when they do not trust the justice system. And Punisher just makes people trust the justice system less.
One thing that i appreciate about the punisher is he hates people using his symbol as admiration or to commit murder. He comes across two cops that have him symbol on his car and they talk about how they want to be like him. What does punisher do? Walks up to the car, rips the symbol off and gives them a lecture that ends with "you boys need someone to look up to? His name is captain America. He would be happy to have you."
All the hate punisher gets is annoying however I feel like cops shouldn’t be wearing the symbol on their uniform because cops are supposed to work within the law, while Punisher obviously doesn’t
Yeah, those same people that say Punisher is problematic, are the same ones that say Pearl (from the X movies) is their spirit animal. If Punisher was a woman, feminists would wear the skull during those women marches.
Not only Pearl but a lot of other violent and psychotic nutheads. These people outright said they identify more with villains than heroes, which says alot if they deem Frank irredeemable.
The Punisher is the angry ghost of Frank Castle who's last vestiges of humanity died with his family. The one thing thst was an tenuous Anchor to his sanity.
Ok but i'm not gonna act like there arent dudes who say he's a bad guy too. This isnt purely tied into any of those politics and acting like it is isnt addressing the debate some bring up about killing and some of Frank's modern characterization. For the record, I think he's an anti-hero, but a lot of this i'm seeing here isnt fairly addressing the opposing side.
The Punisher appeals to people because he is a good man. In a war he would be called a hero but in the civilian world he is a villain. Put him in Medieval times or any less then charitable time he would be a hero. His idea is he does the hard things others can’t “Red you put’ em in jail and they get out again”. “I PUT THEM IN THE GROUND AND THEY STAY DOWN” He appeals to those who feel the system is rigged. We all have felt at one point or another that bad people always just get off scot-free. It's why members of police and the military like him. Ask any of the grunts. And they will tell you how the top brass is inefficient & ineffective. They all have stories of red tape stopping them from doing what they know is the right thing.
Also people miss that being an actual soldier that uses guns and lives in a context where death is actually a thing, and not "friday incovinience that every hero goes through" makes him more relatable to military and law enforcers than Captain America, who the last time the genral public saw him we had Godlike powers and was fighting against a purple alien to undead trillions of lifes
@@Bibyte Captain America is the ideal. The perfect soldier always fit nothing shakes him. And he is praised as a hero. Always tries to find a peaceful way to end a conflict. The Punisher is the reality. No powers not everything he does is right and the bad guy doesn't always face justice. Gets his hands dirty and is despised for what he had to do. And makes mistakes.
I am friends with ex-Marines. They told me about friends who spotted terrorists who had BOLOs on them and were denied the shot to take them out because the brass didn't okay it. The terrorist in question is the guy suspected of being responsible for the deaths of the 13 service members during the Afghanistan withdrawal. Good men and women are dead because men who never were in the field but have a bird or a star on their shoulder couldn't be bothered to let the men in the field do their job.
The punisher is a warning to those who live off the pain and suffering of the innocent. Those who manipulate the system to skirt justice and those who derive pleasure from others pain. Eventually you may find yourself face-to-face with someone who's beyond threats or intimidation. Someone who the system failed. Someone like Frank. God help you when that day comes.
My biggest issue is the fact that they tried to replace him with a British dude named "Joe Garrison" and then tried to compare Frank and Joe to Johnny Blaze and Dan Ketch. It hurts me on a deeper level because I cosplayed the Punisher in the past, and enjoyed his comics as they were a throwback to the low budget action films, I grew up watching. Heck, the only way they could fix that bad ending is if Frank's Wife isn't really Frank's wife but a demon who manipulated and Tricked Frank. That's the only way they can theoretically fix it. (Also make the retcon of his memories as a mentally disturbed child be false memories implanted.) Marvel is so messed up in the head that they even removed him in a Marvel Zombies story that Garth Ennis wrote.
It depends on the story line. If you read “Punisher: Welcome Back Frank”, he is hero. If you read “Punisher: World War Frank”, he is more of an anti-hero. If you read “Punisher Kills the Avengers”, he is a villain. To me, the Punisher can go either way, a hero, villain, or somewhere in between. That’s why he is such a compelling character.
I'm not sure I agree with you about Frank castle not believing in the bill of rights for rules that restrict the government. Frank castle operates outside of the law and he does not consider himself to be a good guy. So the fact that he doesn't respect someone's rights doesn't mean he doesn't think the government should respect someone's rights . And I'm pretty sure Captain America has also violated search warrant laws to search suspects property. That doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the bill of rights.
@@KopperNeoman That is not a take that I have. Different writers have different interpretations and I haven't liked many recent versions. But I've often seen interpretations where Frank doesn't think of himself as a hero. So I would caution in the idea that Frank idealizes what he does or thinks anyone should copy it. Frank wants to die and he wants to kill criminals.
As much as I miss Punisher being a rival for Spider-Man. I don’t think he’s a villain. If anything he’s a superhero that doesn’t adhere to what society thinks a superhero should be.
I find this interesting. Especially how you highlight Frank's humanity - because to me, him killing isn't what makes him a villain, it's that Frank has a COMPULSION to kill and uses his family as a prop to sate his baser urges. Other killers escape the same moral judgement as Frank does, because they cling on to their humanity. But even when Punisher does something heroic, there's a dark, dark core to him. And it makes the character compelling! Because we see so many flashes of decency and selflessness and genuine heroism, but he can then switch it off like a lightbulb and become the most vicious man you've ever met. I DO think Marvel mishandled him, though. they had him join HYDRA for Gods sake. A well-written Frank Castle would never in a million years join them. And if he thought Cap did? Frank would be the first in line to take him down. That specific story showed a complete disregard for everything that makes him tick.
Anything written by Jason Aaron is just trash. The Punisher kills because he's a soldier, and a soldier in war kills the enemies of his country. That the enemies he kills are criminals with some protection from the law means very little to him. Frank Castle does not have a compulsion to kill, any more than any soldier does. He does believe he has a duty to kill, and that's a very different thing.
The worst argument I've heard on this topic is, "deep down Frank hated his life and secretly was relieved when he family died because it gave him a reason to kill again." Despite his original comic making it vary clear that Frank loved his family. Now, even if we give this argument credence and say sure the punisher loves killing and secretly resented his family. That fact that he always came home and tried to be a good husband and father and refused to kill incident people, even the criminals that took his family's lives until after the police refused to arrest the killers. Actually, it makes him more interesting. Because even if we say he loves killing, it's clearly something he knows he shouldn't love and had tried most of his life to overcome his "addiction" and is now directing it twords others evil.
Jason Aaron is a hack. Remember ugly She-Hulk who was traumatized because a supervillain groped her? You know, She-Hulk, a woman who could punch him into orbit. That She-Hulk. Anything written by Jason Aaron should be treated as bad fanfic. Is there a term for fanfics that aren't written by fans? Fics? Anything written by Jason Aaron should be treated as bad fic.
To be frank(see what I did there?), punisher was regularly portrait as a villain outside of his own book. Civil wars, he executed two costume villains un provocative next panel. Granted everyone was out of character in civil wars. The stupid hand ninja thing you just point out, every time he faced daredevil or Spider-Man… the list go on, you can see where this is going. And it doesn’t help Frank’s case that other hero frequently referred to him as “deranged and mad”, using punisher as a boogie man in an off hand comment. He’s no hero to the larger hero community. Even for seasoned comic veterans, if you don’t read Frank’s book you might knew punisher as a very different beast from other heroes’ perspective of him.
I agree with 98 percent of what you're saying however as recently retired cop from a larger department, I believe no officer should have that Skull on their equipment, the public not all but some aren't too bright, the skull will give them the wrong impression, they see a white supremist use the skull and they see an officer with the exact same Skull tattooed on his arm. It can also bring up other issues but that's another story. Now the military, I get them using the emblem because they generally don't come into contact with the public. However, I wish they would bring back old Frank.
Frank Castle/Mack Bolan would agree. That he/they believe their war against crime is a necessary one does not mean they think that what they do should be legal, or that anyone else should emulate them. He/they are the scourge of those the law cannot touch, and he/they wouldn't want a police officer doing the same.
They have to portray him that way because it is too grounded in reality. Not every criminal is a Pablo Escobar and I wouldn't want to be shot by a powertripping cop for soeeding.
I despise the “oh Frank is only the punisher cause he gets off on killing” retcon and yes it is a retcon. It completely robs the character of any real nuance, there’s no more discussion or debate on the character anymore he’s just a serial killer now …. That’s it. Wow thanks guys how “subversive” 👍
I would love to see Frank Castle/The Punisher ans Jason Todd/Red Hood crossover because both of them are anti hero that deals with crimes in their own ways (Imagine how this interaction would go, if they are gonna become friends or enemies)
Punisher might actually try to kill Jason. Frank's a perfectionist, and if he saw that Jason wasn't as precise as him, he might see him as little more than a criminal. But then again, after learning what Joker did to him, he might instead take pity on Jason and actually help him.
The Punisher is an anti-hero, not a villain, yes, he is darkly more real than the Marvel fantasy universe other characters, but he's still an anti-hero, he almost has a breakdown when Jigsaw tricked him into believing he killed a young girl during a shootout. Frank later leaves the criminals in the issue to be dealt with by their victims, a villain wouldn't do that.
Just started the video and i wanted to say this about Batman and punisher because i feel not enough people bring this up. Batman and punisher are fictional characters who are usually portayed to be very intelligent who also have to deal with dangerous criminals. Batman as a character functions because of his restraint of violence and so on because of his no killing rule. Punisher is the opposite because he has a violent nature that gets bad guys killed. Both batman and punisher go after people who DESERVE whatever punisher and batman throw at them. They always go after bad people and always do what they think is right because they are protagonists. THEY FIGHT BAD PEOPLE!! THATS THE POINT!! THEY'RE NOT FASCISTS OR SECRET BADGUYS. We as consumers can't forget that the audience is omnipotent and ALMOST ALWAYS know which way karma is supposed to go. The story is supposed to side with batman and punisher because we know their badguys deserve to be punished. No pun intended. Let good and anit heroes beat up badguys.(in hopefully well written stories)
Frank is a complex character. An anti-hero to be sure but he has a long history, and he hasn't always played the hero in the anit-hero as much as he eventually did. The irony that members of LE and the military (maybe not so much the green suiter side since execution of their mission set cleaves closer to how the Punisher operates but there's still rules to abide by whereas for the vigilante...). Frank, though, was pretty clear about the differences between what he does and what LE does. “I’ll say this once. We’re not the same. You took an oath to uphold the law. You help people. I gave all that up a long time ago. You don’t do what I do. Nobody does. “You boys need a role model? His name is Captain America, and he’d be happy to have you.” I've been in LE for going on 25+ years. Military before that. Being a fan of Frank I understand and respect the way he was written and what his character said and why. The moral of his story. I cannot say the same for a lot of my fellow LE. Nor a lot of civilians.
lol “Potato Merchants”, as someone who is half Irish I’d call them “Guinness drinkers” but fair! At the end of the day Frank only uses violence against those who deserve it!
I was going through some clips yesterday on the 1994 version of the crow with Brandon Lee and in the comments there was a dude bitching about how he doesn’t like movies and comics like the crow and punisher because it puts “villains” like them in a good light. I don’t understand what people’s problems are with dirt bags taking a dirt nap.
This video is fantastic, thank you for creating it! I think you're right on the money. The Punisher isn't a villain, he's a deeply misunderstood hero. He has a code, he never harms innocents, he dispenses a kind of justice that our softened society is afraid of but a kind of justice nonetheless. I have the hottest of all takes (!) in saying that I think Punisher is a better and purer hero than Batman. While Batman hypocritically values the lives of the psychos he locks up but never seems to value the lives of the people he allows to die by not killing the killers, Punisher is rescuing people preventatively. Batman is too self-righteous to blemish his sanctimonious purity enough to be effective but the Punisher is self-sacrificial: he knows he has to become a monster to fight monsters and he's willing to compromise his own civility in order to make sure those killers never harm anyone again. And I hate to get political but, let's face it, the reason Punisher isn't allowed to be considered a hero is because he is ideologically opposed to everyone who works at Marvel. The far left wishes death upon patriotic Americans who don't vote like they do but for murderers, rapists and thieves, they feel nothing but kinship. They just can't wrap their heads around a lethal vigilante being *GOOD.* That's why I don't think you will ever see another correctly-written portrayal of Frank Castle from Marvel again. The current creative "talent" (word used generously) won't allow for the possibility that lethal force can be used for good, they don't even want their hero characters to have guns. It's pathetic. Great video! Keep it up!!
*5:23-when you realize American courts have been subverted so trials by jury do not happen, then understand why Leo's are sick of scum getting back onto the street. The Punisher is an answer when the system is purposely broken. It's the "Criminal" justice system, not the victim justice system.
Excellent review. This is the reason why I like the Punisher - he's a complex and tragic anti-hero vigilante who does questionable things for a greater good. Sure, that sounds extremistic, but Punisher actually have a point about the inept justice system and corruption there.
My feelings to Punisher is more akin to those of Arthur Morgan and John Marston, good characters but very debatable to say whether you consider them heroes or villains.
Exactly if Frank is the ultimate anti-hero, he is like a villain, but he’s not. He’s a twisted hero. He might not like killing, but to not would break his vow. He tries to eliminate evil so that no one has to end up like his family
One of the things I love about Frank Castles the Punisher as a character is that even though he’s methods are questionable he still has some humanity and the desire to do good. While yes you may say “killing criminals makes you no better then them” you have to understand that sometimes you can’t blindly trust the criminal justice system especially if they have corrupt authorities figures, not to mention not everybody can’t be redeemed. And the people who say he should be a villain because Cops, U.S soldiers and “the far right” like him should fuck off! 😒
@@KopperNeoman That's true. The modern "leftists" who claim the mantle of those who fought Nazism in the '40s would consider everyone who fought the Nazis (the real ones) back then to be "literal Nazis". Now, many of those men did hold views that were racist and bigoted. That was the fact of the time, and that is lamentable. However, holding those views did not make them Nazis. It just meant they held views that were wrong. Hopefully many had the chance to change their minds as the years passed.
From all my time liking the character, what I know mainly that Frank Castle is a deeply unwell person. In the framing of the story, he is the means of catharsis as we see people the books building as some of the worst in humanity punished for hurting innocent people, but as a character himself Frank has not been well since he was small, and nobody stopped to help him. He is not a villain like people who wanted and did cancel him wanted, but he is not someone to be idolized like people who don't know a lick about him apart from shoot criminals. We've been shown in countless stories as a man in love with war, even if he himself would want to fight it, be it burning a bully alive when he was just a kid or serving three terms in Vietnam. He's picked a war he knows he cannot win. He's been placed against different groups of human or inhuman threats, demons, monster killers, ice giants and dark elves, but he has always done it to protect some group or another. You cannot argue that what he's doing didn't help spare someone from a monstrous treatment, but you cannot argue Frank himself is of a sane mind, even if he always has enough empathy to care enough to fight for someone.
Even though there are times when I would prefer that the punisher would have Agent 47's level of subtly, there's no way I'd ever consider him a true villain.
Not the point of the video, but reminding me why I like the Punisher, even if he's never been one of my favorites, just makes me look forward to the Marvel Vs Capcom Arcade Collection even more. ... I never played _The Punisher_ Arcade game before. >_>
Frank isn’t a villain, but he’s nowhere near a hero. He’s a serial killer who targets criminals. Having an excuse doesn’t make you justified, especially with the things he has done. He’s brutally murdered criminals in front of kids, killed former villains recruited by Captain America, killed a reformed Stiltman and then attacked his funeral, and has canonically murdered children: The Punisher (2002) issue 18, The Punisher Back to School Special. I don’t even consider him an anti-hero. When I think anti-hero I think Ghostrider, Blade, Venom, and Wolverine. Sure they kill, but their goals aren’t always just to kill people. It’s to reach a goal, and catch a few bodies on the way if needed. He’s too brutal and unyielding for me to consider him being any type of hero.
I have to say, after a week since this vid has been uploaded I'm very happy to see the positive response. Given all the BS that's happened in the world of comic books over the last six or seven years, it's still cool to see so many people in the comments passionate about these characters and the stories they've been involved in. So, to everyone who commented on this vid even if we disagreed, thanks so much for watching and being part of the discussion! I'll definitely do more comic book stuff in the future!
While it's heckin cool and justified to kill gangs in the lore, it is actually not good to do so in reality. Not necessarily because it is immoral, but because court cases unveil a lot of evidence to the public that would remain hidden if you had just killed the suspect. Even when the justice system fails to punish violators, people are able to see why several years later.
That's why it was bad for Epstein to die. He's definitely an evil guy that the Punisher would have killed, but no one knew about his extent of his evil actions or his evil collaborators.
If writers were good, they would do a story about how the Punisher killing people worsens stuff for everyone in the long run.
Also the heroes and other villians have done worse.
I want to know your thoughts on the character of Blade being called a genocidal maniac who wants to wipe out the whole vampire race because of the grudge he has against them, and him not really being a good guy or a hero but rather a villain?
Also the vampires not being portrayed in a more complex and gray area in the Marvel comics as well as its adaptations. 'Cause I've seen some people say that.
@@sosringdaothaosen3562Those people are not bright.
I remember watching you years ago just got recommended this video glad you’re still making content. Big ups from England
the best punisher quote imo Daredevil- “frank when you kill a murderer the number of murderers doesnt drop” Frank “ Thats why I dont stop” it sums up his character perfectly
And that's a dumb comment from DD because not all killing is murdering.
Ah but it does if you kill two murderers
If Batman adopted Frank's M.O. Gotham would be a much safer place to live.
It'd be a pretty simple agreement for his rogues' gallery.
"If you rob a shop, I'll put you in jail, but if you kill someone, I'll put you in the ground."
@@freman007So, you’re a fan of the Justice Lords I see.
One of my favorite punisher moments was after rescuing a baby from a baby trafficking ring that killed its mother he gave the infant back to his crackhead dad and said in no uncertain terms take care of that kid or punisher would be back. Mercy, and justice.
I admittedly haven't read any Punisher comics, but even I know that calling him a villain is a gross oversimplification of who he is as a character. Anyone could lose faith in the criminal justice system after seeing their own family gunned down in front of them. That's one way to describe Frank: a man who has lost faith in the system due to personal tragedy. His violent war on crime is his way of delivering justice where the system cannot due to factors like corruption and incompetence.
Great description of the character. He's a true vigilante, dealing out his own brand of justice that the courts/legal system have failed to provide.
It's no accident that he was created as an inspiration of Reactionary/Vigilante Movies of the late 1970s and early to mid 80s. Namely Taxi Driver and Death Wish. He tapped into that same visceral need for brutal justice. Outwardly you should not praise him but there's that part of you ( though you know is fundamentally wrong) that roots for him.
Even though I do agree with most of what you said the only thing I’d disagree with is saying that frank does this because of his family or the justice system, I think frank does what he does because he enjoys it, if u read punisher max it’ll show you that frank has always been the punisher even before the war and especially after. It also shows how right before his family was killed he asked for a divorce from his wife, frank definitely loved his family but then dying was just the excuse he uses to do what he truly loves to do. I don’t think he’s ever had faith in the justice system tbh. (Sorry if this came off rude or condescending not my intent, just wanted to add my thoughts)
@@w.t.dproductions8255I think Frank did enjoy the killing but knew that it wasn't right, that it wasn't how things were supposed to be. That's why he idolized Captain America and he hoped that his kindhearted family would be able to help him escape his need to kill. But then when they died, his lifeline snapped and he tripled down on his dark impulses.
Well said, man. Punisher is an anti-hero, a tragic vigilante.
Who the fuck said he's a villian. He kills ppl who need to be killed and has bullet plot armor to not harm civilians
Marvels editorial
@@Fauwkes and JSG... sadly
@@dandare9055🤨 JSG What’s that???
Unfortunately, idiots think he's bad because he kills folk instead of putting them in jail for them to escape by next week and repeat the cycle all over again like Batman & Spider-Man.
Tell that to every superhero he's tried to murder, like Spider-Man, or Daredevil, or Captain America, or bunch of the Avengers, or a shit ton of the X-Men on multiple occasions. Frank is a piece of shit who immediately tries to kill just about every superhero he ever even sees that disagrees with how he does things.
Also, don't forget how in issue #63 of Punisher Max, Frank was ready to kill himself when he thought that he killed a little girl. This goes to show that, if he ever thinks that he crossed the line and brakes his code, then Frank thinks he's no better than the scum he kills, and how he must punish himself.
Sure, Frank kills mobsters, drug dealers, rapists and any other scum in NYC, but he wouldn't even go as far as to murder a little girl. Especially not after what happened with his family.
Frank is one of the few Marvel characters I really like, and it's because of scenes like that.
And the little girl showed up in his dreams "telling " him that he didn't do it and to just let go
Shi was wholesomely creepy
why you trying to defend him this much do people who are marvel fans hate frank because of this.
All this because they think the Punisher is liked by the "wrong people".
100%
@@vonhellusMeantime they THEMSELVES are the
"WRONG PEOPLE"
@@JoeNeutrino just takes the one incident that spoils it for everyone else.
I take it THEY are bad people
More like US Soldiers used the symbol during the 2000s while in the middle east. Which was tasteful.
Now a bunch of beer-bellied right wingers took it and now fancy themselves as ultra macho, masculine heroes for America. Despite invading the capitol building...
I'm willing to be that most of them are usually just alcoholics with toxic masculine father figures, and unhappy marriages if they even are married lol.
If killing pedos and Grapists makes you a villain then I wouldn't want punisher to be a hero.
He fills a very necessary void in marvel. While the costumes are up in space fighting gods, demons and monsters punisher is down here protecting the little people from the everyday monsters
The Goblin Slayer of Marvel. Forever hated by those who genuinely take light for dark and dark for light.
What about daredevil ???
@@mytruthismoreuseful 😒 what about him?
"While the costumes are up in space fighting gods," I'm pretty sure the majority of the Marvel universe stays on earth fighting for the little guy. But who knows
@@Tabletopcloud20 c listers sure but they put killers in jail to do it again later as per comic book bullshit. When punisher puts villains down the only way they get back up is if the writers play god for them
In which case Frank will just do it again
Frank Castle a.k.a. The Punisher, is pretty much meant to be Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan, a.k.a. The Executioner, in comic book form. His only mission is bringing Old Testament brutal judgment to those who do evil. He's not here to save lives. He's here to end them. The lives of evil individuals in particular. He lives and breathes this mission 24/7. His dedication to his craft is next level. The fact remains is that Frank Castle is The Grim Reaper in human form for those who think that their number isn't up.
Frank Castle is basically Paul Kersey from Death Wish. Especially when they frame Castle as trying to be a normal civvie post war that just gets caught up.
I feel i need to say this the Grim Reaper is way hotter in her human form....I'll be in the shame box
Hail Mack Bolan. Make Entertainment Pulp Again
@@orlandobritt1460
Death of the Endless is a cutie pie.
"I'm not their judge. I'm not their jury. They've already been judged by the rules of civilization. I am their executioner." Mack Bolan
That said, Mack Bolan was both the Executioner, and Sergeant Mercy. He would put his life on the line to protect the innocent, but he was death to the wicked. He also didn't believe that anyone else should follow his path. That he saw his war as necessary did not mean that he thought anyone else should do it, or that what he did should ever be legal.
If he was ever in a position where he had to kill a cop, a "soldier of the same side" in his mind, or die, he'd choose to die. The only way he could differentiate himself from the evil he hunted, in his own mind, was to have a line he'd never cross.
Saying that punisher is a villain is just the same as saying that Batman is just a egotistical rich guy that likes beating up poor people
@@A-TALKING-TOASTER if anything Batman is one of the greatest heroes out there, he’s someone who sacrifices whatever normal life he could have ever had to preventing the world from having any one else go through what he did, his refusal to kill is an admirable trait, not a flaw! I love violent Anti Heroes like Wolverine, the Ghost Rider,Spawn and Punisher but Batman only uses as much force as necessary(admittedly I do find taking a life in self defense to be justified, though I admire that Batman is able to take down criminals without losing his humanity and soul)! The idea that he’s “a Rich guy who likes beating the poor” is also especially egregious when you consider the number of mob bosses and wealthy villains he taken on including the Penguin,Black Mask,Two Face,Carmine Falcone,Ra’s Al Ghul,Salvatore Maroni,Killer Moth,The Ventriloquist,Hush,etc. Furthermore these same people also ignore that Bruce regularly actually tries to make Gotham a better place by funding non corrupt candidates and dealing with poverty!(Bruce Wayne himself May to pretend be a lazy git but he treats his employees well enough)
To say and mean an opinion *THIS* stupid, you'd have to be...
....
....
....
every brainrot leftist who works at DC and Marvel and/or the SJW lunatics on twitter
Batman has repeatedly been called out for having a God complex and just by the nature of existing law he actually does more harm than good.
@@henrygambles3652
Batman does have a huge rogues gallery of psychos and murderers.
Punisher doesn't.
@@freman007 and? Spider-Man has some equally heinous villains who have committed grotesque acts! Furthermore, it’s not Batman’s job to be judge,jury and executioner!
Frank Castle as the Punisher is at times a vigilante, while at other an antihero. He brute force "the end justifies the means" that he essentially let his targets get a taste of their own medicines, or getting himself dirty wherein the junstice system wouldn't, not shouldn't. He's not a CIA operative material because he belongs to the FBI's SWAT team as a blunt instrument, however he won't go rouge unlike CIA's paramilitary groups because he'll always respect Steve Rogers.
Frank castle teams up with The Shadow.
The Spider or The Black Terror (Bob Benton) from the old comics would be better team-ups, in my opinion.
Shadow the hedgehog: I’m in
@@INLIGHTOFHISTORTYANDOTHE-px7mf Very fitting since both characthers motivations are the death of a girl named Maria
The people that say Frank is a villain are the same people cheering when the X-Men slaughter people.
Well said
Or those who cheer for "Magneto is right"
And then there's that weird group that only seem to think he's a villain because he's willing to kill. I've legit bumped into people who think antihero/villain just means character the character is willing to kill their opponents.
@@MataNui. Media literacy is dead... for those people XD
@@DigimontamerB These are the also the SAME people who HATE the "EVIL"United States..& want to " BURN IT ALL DOWN"
Meantime... their ENTIRE existence is ONLY made possible by all TECHNOLOGY created by the "EVIL CAPITALISTS"
Basically..if the "REVOLUTION" means going WITHOUT the INTERNET for a couple hours... they're OUT!
🤣🤣
I’m so sick of hearing comic channels saying he’s a full villain
No he’s the one who gets things done
These days people defend the criminals more than the victims
Batman: *glances away nervously*
@@jeremyallen5974even batman who doesn't want Noone to get killed he prays for the villains like joker to die
@@ntinosaggelopoulos6718 So why doesn't he stop being a pussy and drop the hammer instead of allowing Joker to kill without consequences?
Gets things done sure when he's not being tricked into going after heroes by clear villains for umpteenth time.
@@jeremyallen5974Punisher treats the symptom but worsen the disease. Batman wants to fix the disease.
The disease is lack of faith in the system, a lack of faith in the institution. The disease is a lack of civilization and decency. Batman by doing what he does both as a vigilante and philanthropist works to restore that faith. He works to fix the justice system, to fix the government of his city, he works to educate and teach people decency by example, and while as Batman teach them that evil will not go unpunished.
But the Punisher, by taking Justice into his own hands and be judge jury and executioner destroys the public's faith in the system even more. He doees fix the symptoms in the short term but he makes the disease worse. Accelerating the societies descend to total anarchy and madness.
Deadpool isn’t really similar to Frank, he’s a mercenary who’ll do nearly anything he’s paid to do except hurting kids, and honestly Deadpool is much closer to being a villain than Punisher is
I mean, Deadpool literally was a villain whereas Frank was a one-off.
Frank Castle is man of results, in my opinion.
You damn right people today doesn’t like frank And the shadow
@@Dakota-d4n
I heard the Shadow moved to New Mexico to improve his accuracy
To be fair, Kingpin, Osborn, the Owl, all of them are still running around. Frank is about as effective as Daredevil, Spidey, etc.
Then why does he have to keep re-killing Stiltman?
@@aaronbosen6743 Due to the nature of the Punisher, if he's to have a rogue's gallery, it has to be a rogue's gallery that can at least fight him to a standstill or keep surviving.
In an age where modern writers try to push the narrative that there are no villains only "heroes on their own journeys" that are victims of society; of course the same kind of people would argue that someone like Frank would be a true "villain"
Fair
I hate that narrative so much. No some folks are just villain. That’s why joker is the most popular villain of all time. Real life villains are more like Joker than Magneto.
@@Linklex7 no joker is a victim. Watch joker 2019. We live in a society. 😂😂😂😂 I can't believe the movies literally took the victim joker idea fans made (yeah killing joke inspired it but Ledger fans most didn't read that) and made it real. Secondly I can't believe "we live in a society" has officially been said by Jared leto joker
Ngl I would die laughing if someone tried to argue Billy Kincaid from Spawn is a victim, or "hero on his own journey".
@TheosophicalMusings they can't. That'd the one group people can't defend. Thanos has muscles and is cool always wins. Joker is cool or sympathetic depending if Ledger or pheonix. A lot of these people defending villains are just du(hello youtube dont ban me)b men. The other defend people like Killmonger for bringing up real issues. They don't actually think about hoe he took it to the extreme because it's an issue that affects them. Same way a du(youtube censor)b man who was divorced unfairly by his assets being taken away may justify a man who was cheated on foing awful things.
The only ones who consider anti heroes as villains are the absolute losers on Reddit that are somehow weirdly anti cop yet anti vigilantism at the same time
*psst*
they're pro criminal. and anti masculinity (unless it's a woman).
They keep trying to retcon Frank into being a sociopath since birth and im tired of it.
People want Frank to be mentally ill so bad, lol
Psychopats are born but sociopaths are made
@@markstriker925 Frank is mentally obsessed with war.
Frank’s family’s death did not create The Punisher, his family’s death let the Punisher out of the cage.
Frank always loved being a warrior. The only thing that scares Frank Castle is not fighting a war anymore. Frank never knew how to live a simple and comfortable life.
The Punisher is a tragedy because being a warrior is the only thing he knows how to do in life. Frank was going to learn how to be a father and husband but that chance was taken from him.
@@petermj1098 That's MAX Frank.
It's a decent, unique take but it is not 616 Frank. Atleast until Jason Aaron said otherwise, but none of us wanna talk about that, nor should we.
@@FrancisCastiglione Dude in the Punisher’s first appearance he tries to murder Spider-Man for killing Norman Osborn of all characters and he worked with the villain the Jackal to do so. Yeah Frank realized his wrong doing but it does not change the fact Frank was always written to have his war on criminals go out of control at times since his first appearance.
I worked in law enforcement, served in the military, am Christian, believe in the constitution, and so on. The punisher is an interesting character and in my top 5 comic characters. I don’t agree with every aspect of the character but at the same time that’s a ridiculous expectation. I don’t agree with everything Iron Man or Captain America do either. Even they disagree as it turns out. That’s how stories work. It’s interest and entertainment not a hive mind where we must all be in agreement.
Best comment.
People have it so easy now that they make up their own problems and complain about things that everyone was ok with before. Punisher is not a villain, he's just portrayed that way by people who blow thinga out of proportion, especially about the skull logo on law enforcement and military
@@spartanswhatisyourprofessi2825 the skull logo thing irritates me in particular. When I deployed, we were told we couldn’t have the skull (of any kind due to similarity) incorporated into moral patches, shirts, etc., but we ended up with thanos gauntlet patches…
@@krakenmckraken9128 Not to mention that you see Cop Cars with Punishers skulls all the time.
@@MrRAGE-md5rj
But does anyone with a Punisher skull actually read the Punisher comics?
That's the problem with the "comics pros" who take issue with those who have the skull because they think it's cool, and in response change the comics completely. Very few people read the comics. Very few people read comics at all. They're not wearing the skull because they've read the comics, or know any more about Frank Castle than they'd get from a Google search.
They wear it because it's cool.
The older I get the more I understand Frank and see his side of things.
All it takes is a bit of life experience to realize Frank's in the right
@@beans3977
Don't be such an edgelord.
No, he isn't.
@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 What's edgy about agreeing with his methods? It's not like he goes after innocents. And take it from me. Based on my own life experiences, I can say with 100% certainty that certain people cannot change. People like EDP for example, will never change. And I believe that's one reason why the character is very cathartic to people
The Punisher isn't a villain. But he's not a hero, like Batman or Spider-Man/Superman (for example) are.
He doesn't value human life, compassion and the possibility for rehabilitation and redemption above everything like Batman. He doesn't do what's right simply because he has the ability to, and he has a responsibility to use his strength to help others like Spider-Man or Superman.
He takes the worst and irredeemable criminals off the street permanently, preventing them from ever hurting anyone ever again. Is this the right thing? Depends on who you ask. He has different morals and methods, but is he a villain? Not at all.
Castle does value human life, and compassion, but he also understands that "compassion to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent."
If you leave a criminal on the streets to do evil, then the innocent will suffer. If you have the means to stop that criminal, but do not, then you are culpable in their crimes.
What he does is "the right thing", but it is not the "legal thing" and neither Frank Castle, nor his literary inspiration Mack Bolan, would ever want it to be legal.
Like the Sin Eater, they carry the burden alone, so that others may live without it.
Nice summation of the Punisher character. I think he was just used as a dog whistle by certain parties who couldn't reall articulate what the character was about.
I always thought he was used cause people just really liked his logo I don’t really think it had anything to do with the punisher more so just the cool skull he put on stuff
Thomas Jane's punisher was a Gulf War veteran before joining the FBI.
As a huge Punisher fan myself, thank you! 🙂
It's awesome to see other people understanding the character, it's not that hard to see the difference between an antihero & a villain!
And what they did to Frank Castle in The Hand storyline by Jason Aaron was disrespectful & insulting! The "new" backstory was such bullsh*t & they ruined the character!
That storyline was One More Day godawful!
Ever notice the people who complain about things in comic have never read them? Well made video.
Trust me, there are people who read them and still say this stuff. People are...weird, to put it nicely.
@@vaporsaver Yeah you right.
Frank is one of my favourite characters in Marvel
I believe a lot, the confusion as to whether or not Frank Castle is a villain comes from the fact that he is a vigilante & typifies the idea of what a vigilante is in a way that a lot of superheroes don’t. many of them while wearing a mask will still work alongside law enforcement & allow for do process whereas the punisher actively seeks justice outside the justice system as he is someone who has been failed by the system.
Now this needed to be said, in all my time reading comics, The punisher, Dredd, Hellboy and Etrigan have always been favourites of mine. But to see the Punishers name dragged in the mud has been sad to see.
I've been a Punisher fan since grade school. I grew up watching 80s and 90s action movies with Schwarzenegger and Stallone. The Punisher of the comics I grew up on was basically an action movie hero like that, killing bad guys mercilessly. Arnold's character in Commando was basically a more charming Jason Voorhees, but what makes him a hero is who he killed (people that kidnapped his daughter). That type of extreme violent movie hero is still popular (John Wick killed people who worked for a guy who killed his dog), so it would make sense for the Punisher to still be a popular comic book character. Compare the Punisher to many of the grim 'n gritty superheroes of the 90s, and he's no more violent than them. I don't see anyone criticizing Spawn like they do the Punisher. I love Spawn, too. Remember what he did to Billy Kincaid? Like the Punisher, Spawn was military before he became a violent vigilante superhero wearing mostly black and frowning a lot. It's because rightwing nuts hijacked the Punisher symbol, not Spawn's, that you hear any criticism about the former and not the latter. I often see a Punisher skull on someone's pickup truck and wonder if they ever even picked up a Punisher comic book.
Probably cause punisher is taken much more seriously. People mainly just see those other characters as “mindless fun action where you turn your brain off”
Well, it's unlikely they've read a Punisher comic book, because hardly anyone does read comic books these days.
People like the Punisher skull because it represents something that "the little guy" recognizes as a good thing, that criminals with enough wealth and power to ignore the justice system cannot ignore the man in black. That vengeance will be done on the wicked.
15:57:
This is a good distinction between Frank Castle and say, Dexter Morgan.
They do virtually the same thing, but their motivations differ.
Frank Castle is at his core a Marine at war, while Dexter at his core is no less a serial killer than the others he has killed.
Marvel and the media don't like him because of what he represents. And why would they, look at what's happening across the pond. It's coming here eventually.
I think that Marvel in general leans towards anti-hero archetypes; hell a good 75% have killed at least 1 person without mind control or other mitigating factors. The reason Frank is looked at differently? Every single kill he does is possible by a human in our world. That changes how normies and the typical heroic reader views him. I *do* view Frank as mentally ill however that makes him more interesting. Then add my view of Christianity and my own beliefs "Justice is mine sayeth the lord" and I can't get behind Frank's self-appointed mission. However I don't think he's evil; just broken, and that makes him compelling.
Everything is part of God's plan, though. Frank Castle may well be one of His instruments for justice, especially if he's right about a corrupt system that espouses the socialist principle of punishing dissent, not crime.
As a former Marine and soon to be police officer it isn’t that cops/military are held at a low standard in term of the argument. It’s that neither a marine or cops should wish to emulate a man who conducts vigilante justice. It spits on the face of what those institutions are about.
the thing is that those institutions aren't doing a good job for the people so Punisher becomes a symbol of the job being done and the monsters being kept in check. y'all in america already have a crime problem in some places now imagine, or just make some research, on 3rd country's like Brazil where crime is rampant and brutal, like the favelas where people live in sub-human conditions and gangs are the law there, and even the police/politicians being so corrupt they they help the gangs. people here only have ficticinal characters like Frank to express their anger towards their situation, or at least the ones in that situation who hate it think like that because unfortunatly there are people that aspire to be criminals.
That’s what I thought the known issue was, cops shouldn’t be wearing patches associated with a vigilante
Going back to Castle's inspiration, Mack Bolan, the Executioner, Don Pendleton would agree with you completely.
That, in the stories, Mack saw his war as necessary, didn't mean he ever wanted anyone else to fight it. He certainly didn't think that his methods should be legal, or be engaged in by law enforcement.
He saw himself as "executing" those who, by rights, should be judged in the system, but were beyond the reach of the law.
Don't forget bope
Punisher is the purest example of an Anti-Hero. A necessary evil with standards.
Im also glad you brought up jussie smollet. What if the two guys caught by security footage werent his acquiantances and were nobodies??? Its scary to think how jussie would've acted if 2 different random dudes would've been suspects and how people would've treated innocent guys.
A villain? Who ever said Franks a villain, deserves to face punishment.
I thought you people believed in free speech??
@@maxschreck4095 Learn to take a joke, ya fairy.
@@maxschreck4095 But you people don't, and therefore don't deserve it. ;)
@@KopperNeoman Who can´t comprehend reasonable limits to free speech is an idiot.^^
@@KopperNeoman He's not the one arguing against it.
I tell people to read the slavers Arc and ask "do you still think he's a villain" after.
And if they were honest, they would answer "This is WHY we hate him."
@@KopperNeoman so your a PDF file 🤢
@@KopperNeoman because your a PDFILE
@@KopperNeoman because ur a pdfile
@@KopperNeoman because you’re a PDFILE
Punisher represents the best option especially in the situation the US is in now with absolute corruption. We need an army of Punishers at this point…
Never saw Punisher as a villain but as an anti-hero who gets the job done
As someone who has read every single Punisher comic, and has been a fan of the character for over 30 years, I agree that Frank becoming the head of The Hand was an odd choice. Even more odd than him being a mafia don in the John Ostrander run. I think the main problem people have isn't "people I don't like have adopted the skull" (which I think is more often the case than them being an actual fan of the character or the comics), but the fact that people who very much represent the system that Frank is essentially an indictment of have adopted it. Frank and his skull aren't a symbol of justice, they're a symbol of a failure of the legal system, which is almost word-for-word what Gerry Conway has said about the matter.
Yet that even makes it make more sense when you see those people are going to war it isn't for justice. Those cops that are barely putting a dent into crime because crooked DA and Judges are letting people out unless the criminal basically records their crimes and uploads to IG or Tiktok... They already bear the US flag, that's why they also bear the skull.
And cops that believe in punishment for criminals are often left wanting when a leftoid judge or DA releases criminals that most assuredly belong behind bars or in the chair. So you could say that cops adopting the skull is valid as they too are often the victims of a broken system.
odd? that was during his final (politically sanctioned) ruination arc. nothing odd about it.
The Punisher is the best example of the Chaotic good character if there ever been one.
Lawful Good.
That he doesn't follow the law of the land, doesn't mean that he doesn't follow the Law on his own heart.
Castle is a dark Paladin, bringing justice to those who are considered above the law.
@@freman007 i can see that, that is a fair point
I would only call Punisher a villain if he hypothetically did become so unhinged he gets innocents and other heroes killed intentionally (Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe does not count). That said, Frank could send Batman a video tape of him executing the Joker upon listing the Grand Canyon length list of crimes he’s committed and I would salute Frank for doing the universe a favor. I’m convinced that the main reason the “Punisher is a villain” discourse even exists now is because certain Twitter freaks who hijacked Marvel can’t stand the fact “the other people” like a character that they get with.
Punisher is labeled as a villain because of his actual motives. The fact he does it because he enjoys killing, using his family as an excuse to do what he already wanted to do while they were alive against a pool of victims he could pretend was justified. For reference, he murdered stiltman after the guy had fully gone straight and was trying to be a hero, then proceeded to clear out his entire FUNERAL. Then he was intending to murder 3 petty thieves that stole stiltman's suit on christmas eve where RHINO of all people had to step in and stop it.
@@loveandfrenchtoast8780 You're thinking about the current iteration. The real Frank does not enjoy killing but feels that he has to because to many scumbags who aren't supers get away with crimes. He wants to stop innocent people from feeling the same pain he felt when he lost his family and isn't afraid to get his hands dirty because the justice system failed him. And in his crossover with Archie when he had the criminal dead to rights, he decides to let him go for now because he isn't willing to expose the people of Riverdale to the kind of violence he's used to. The ones who say that he enjoys killing already had low opinions of him from the start and never understood who Frank was to his core.
@@xdomeman you don't honor your children with a sociopathic rampage and committing mass murder in their names. You don't sully their memory with that
Why are yall acting like the joker is the only criminal. It never ends if batman takes one life. He would have to take the l(youtube is awesome please don't ban me) ives of every villain
Batman being incapable of stopping himself from killing every petty criminal after executing the Joker just makes him look weak and undisciplined, something that we know by now should not be the case. Unless you're of the opinion that he's a dangerous madman only barely kept in check by his code, but if he's disciplined enough to not let Joker die for all this time you'd think he'd be disciplined enough to not go after the other members of his rogue gallery who have done far, far less heinous things and caused him far less personal pain.
Punishers done more to make Marvel Universe a better place than Batman or Superman could ever do for DC comics because of their no kill rule.
You’re never going to see a Superman comic where he bodies a child molestor. No matter how much he may deserve it.
He beat up a child abuser tho at least… also Spider-Man is way better then Batman in the no kill rule regard
@@billyboleson2830 He specifically went out of his way to not beat the child abuser in front of his abused child because he thought it would send the wrong message to the child that violence is right. He does internally monologue about how much he'd like to though.
@@InfernoScorpion14 so he just let the abuser go unharmed? You are aware that those types dont change?
@@youtubestudiosucks978 He dragged him to the police and had the wife and child put under police protection. He gave the child his personal phone number and told him to call every single day until the child no longer feels like it, then looked sternly at the father and said "or else there will be consequences"
Absolutely not he has done worse in the long term.
Society needs order and state. Anarchy is dumb, and he has done just that making people be more anarcistic and barbaric.
Batman works as a Knight, protecting his fiefdom and teachs his peasants that as long as they work honestly the system he sets forth will protect them.
People do crime when they do not trust the justice system. And Punisher just makes people trust the justice system less.
One thing that i appreciate about the punisher is he hates people using his symbol as admiration or to commit murder. He comes across two cops that have him symbol on his car and they talk about how they want to be like him. What does punisher do? Walks up to the car, rips the symbol off and gives them a lecture that ends with "you boys need someone to look up to? His name is captain America. He would be happy to have you."
The Video Game that is voiced by Thomas Jane is also worth mentioning.
Technically, Frank Castle is a vigilante Serial Killer. His moments of humanity is related to the trauma which fuels his every waking moment.
All the hate punisher gets is annoying however I feel like cops shouldn’t be wearing the symbol on their uniform because cops are supposed to work within the law, while Punisher obviously doesn’t
The punisher was never a villain
Yeah, those same people that say Punisher is problematic, are the same ones that say Pearl (from the X movies) is their spirit animal.
If Punisher was a woman, feminists would wear the skull during those women marches.
Not only Pearl but a lot of other violent and psychotic nutheads. These people outright said they identify more with villains than heroes, which says alot if they deem Frank irredeemable.
The Punisher is the angry ghost of Frank Castle who's last vestiges of humanity died with his family. The one thing thst was an tenuous Anchor to his sanity.
@@Shugg-Goff-HHoffical I like that!
Yep. If The Punisher was a woman that specifically targeted r@p1$t$, feminists would exclaim "YASSS QUEEN...SLAAAAAY!"
Ok but i'm not gonna act like there arent dudes who say he's a bad guy too. This isnt purely tied into any of those politics and acting like it is isnt addressing the debate some bring up about killing and some of Frank's modern characterization.
For the record, I think he's an anti-hero, but a lot of this i'm seeing here isnt fairly addressing the opposing side.
The Punisher appeals to people because he is a good man. In a war he would be called a hero but in the civilian world he is a villain.
Put him in Medieval times or any less then charitable time he would be a hero.
His idea is he does the hard things others can’t “Red you put’ em in jail and they get out again”.
“I PUT THEM IN THE GROUND AND THEY STAY DOWN”
He appeals to those who feel the system is rigged. We all have felt at one point or another that bad people always just get off scot-free.
It's why members of police and the military like him. Ask any of the grunts.
And they will tell you how the top brass is inefficient & ineffective.
They all have stories of red tape stopping them from doing what they know is the right thing.
Also people miss that being an actual soldier that uses guns and lives in a context where death is actually a thing, and not "friday incovinience that every hero goes through" makes him more relatable to military and law enforcers than Captain America, who the last time the genral public saw him we had Godlike powers and was fighting against a purple alien to undead trillions of lifes
@@Bibyte Captain America is the ideal. The perfect soldier always fit nothing shakes him. And he is praised as a hero.
Always tries to find a peaceful way to end a conflict.
The Punisher is the reality. No powers not everything he does is right and the bad guy doesn't always face justice.
Gets his hands dirty and is despised for what he had to do. And makes mistakes.
I am friends with ex-Marines. They told me about friends who spotted terrorists who had BOLOs on them and were denied the shot to take them out because the brass didn't okay it. The terrorist in question is the guy suspected of being responsible for the deaths of the 13 service members during the Afghanistan withdrawal. Good men and women are dead because men who never were in the field but have a bird or a star on their shoulder couldn't be bothered to let the men in the field do their job.
The punisher is a warning to those who live off the pain and suffering of the innocent. Those who manipulate the system to skirt justice and those who derive pleasure from others pain. Eventually you may find yourself face-to-face with someone who's beyond threats or intimidation. Someone who the system failed. Someone like Frank. God help you when that day comes.
My biggest issue is the fact that they tried to replace him with a British dude named "Joe Garrison" and then tried to compare Frank and Joe to Johnny Blaze and Dan Ketch. It hurts me on a deeper level because I cosplayed the Punisher in the past, and enjoyed his comics as they were a throwback to the low budget action films, I grew up watching. Heck, the only way they could fix that bad ending is if Frank's Wife isn't really Frank's wife but a demon who manipulated and Tricked Frank. That's the only way they can theoretically fix it. (Also make the retcon of his memories as a mentally disturbed child be false memories implanted.) Marvel is so messed up in the head that they even removed him in a Marvel Zombies story that Garth Ennis wrote.
I know. He was a violent vigilant but he didn't deserve that.
Frank Castle is, indeed, not a villian. He's a Marine, doing what he was trained to do.
It depends on the story line. If you read “Punisher: Welcome Back Frank”, he is hero. If you read “Punisher: World War Frank”, he is more of an anti-hero. If you read “Punisher Kills the Avengers”, he is a villain. To me, the Punisher can go either way, a hero, villain, or somewhere in between. That’s why he is such a compelling character.
He was also a former Marine in the 2004 adaptation, he just went to becoming an FBI agent later as well.
I'm not sure I agree with you about Frank castle not believing in the bill of rights for rules that restrict the government. Frank castle operates outside of the law and he does not consider himself to be a good guy. So the fact that he doesn't respect someone's rights doesn't mean he doesn't think the government should respect someone's rights . And I'm pretty sure Captain America has also violated search warrant laws to search suspects property. That doesn't mean he doesn't believe in the bill of rights.
Maybe Frank is more of a Thomas Hutchinson guy, and doesn't believe in the United States' Bill of Rights because he sees better elsewhere.
@@KopperNeoman That is not a take that I have. Different writers have different interpretations and I haven't liked many recent versions. But I've often seen interpretations where Frank doesn't think of himself as a hero. So I would caution in the idea that Frank idealizes what he does or thinks anyone should copy it. Frank wants to die and he wants to kill criminals.
As much as I miss Punisher being a rival for Spider-Man. I don’t think he’s a villain. If anything he’s a superhero that doesn’t adhere to what society thinks a superhero should be.
I find this interesting. Especially how you highlight Frank's humanity - because to me, him killing isn't what makes him a villain, it's that Frank has a COMPULSION to kill and uses his family as a prop to sate his baser urges. Other killers escape the same moral judgement as Frank does, because they cling on to their humanity. But even when Punisher does something heroic, there's a dark, dark core to him. And it makes the character compelling! Because we see so many flashes of decency and selflessness and genuine heroism, but he can then switch it off like a lightbulb and become the most vicious man you've ever met.
I DO think Marvel mishandled him, though. they had him join HYDRA for Gods sake. A well-written Frank Castle would never in a million years join them. And if he thought Cap did? Frank would be the first in line to take him down. That specific story showed a complete disregard for everything that makes him tick.
Anything written by Jason Aaron is just trash.
The Punisher kills because he's a soldier, and a soldier in war kills the enemies of his country. That the enemies he kills are criminals with some protection from the law means very little to him.
Frank Castle does not have a compulsion to kill, any more than any soldier does. He does believe he has a duty to kill, and that's a very different thing.
Not many people call him a villain but because he may lack some of traits of a conventional hero he’s been known as an anti-hero.
the punisher max series is a goddamn work of art!
Well, "goddamned" is right.
The worst argument I've heard on this topic is, "deep down Frank hated his life and secretly was relieved when he family died because it gave him a reason to kill again."
Despite his original comic making it vary clear that Frank loved his family.
Now, even if we give this argument credence and say sure the punisher loves killing and secretly resented his family. That fact that he always came home and tried to be a good husband and father and refused to kill incident people, even the criminals that took his family's lives until after the police refused to arrest the killers. Actually, it makes him more interesting. Because even if we say he loves killing, it's clearly something he knows he shouldn't love and had tried most of his life to overcome his "addiction" and is now directing it twords others evil.
Jason Aaron is a hack. Remember ugly She-Hulk who was traumatized because a supervillain groped her? You know, She-Hulk, a woman who could punch him into orbit. That She-Hulk.
Anything written by Jason Aaron should be treated as bad fanfic. Is there a term for fanfics that aren't written by fans? Fics?
Anything written by Jason Aaron should be treated as bad fic.
To be frank(see what I did there?), punisher was regularly portrait as a villain outside of his own book. Civil wars, he executed two costume villains un provocative next panel. Granted everyone was out of character in civil wars. The stupid hand ninja thing you just point out, every time he faced daredevil or Spider-Man… the list go on, you can see where this is going.
And it doesn’t help Frank’s case that other hero frequently referred to him as “deranged and mad”, using punisher as a boogie man in an off hand comment. He’s no hero to the larger hero community. Even for seasoned comic veterans, if you don’t read Frank’s book you might knew punisher as a very different beast from other heroes’ perspective of him.
Making him a member of the hand was one of Marvel's biggest mistake which is why I'm currently reading Punisher MAX.
I agree with 98 percent of what you're saying however as recently retired cop from a larger department, I believe no officer should have that Skull on their equipment, the public not all but some aren't too bright, the skull will give them the wrong impression, they see a white supremist use the skull and they see an officer with the exact same Skull tattooed on his arm. It can also bring up other issues but that's another story.
Now the military, I get them using the emblem because they generally don't come into contact with the public. However, I wish they would bring back old Frank.
Frank Castle/Mack Bolan would agree.
That he/they believe their war against crime is a necessary one does not mean they think that what they do should be legal, or that anyone else should emulate them.
He/they are the scourge of those the law cannot touch, and he/they wouldn't want a police officer doing the same.
They have to portray him that way because it is too grounded in reality. Not every criminal is a Pablo Escobar and I wouldn't want to be shot by a powertripping cop for soeeding.
I despise the “oh Frank is only the punisher cause he gets off on killing” retcon and yes it is a retcon. It completely robs the character of any real nuance, there’s no more discussion or debate on the character anymore he’s just a serial killer now …. That’s it. Wow thanks guys how “subversive” 👍
@@dc7981 same here
I would love to see Frank Castle/The Punisher ans Jason Todd/Red Hood crossover because both of them are anti hero that deals with crimes in their own ways (Imagine how this interaction would go, if they are gonna become friends or enemies)
Punisher might actually try to kill Jason. Frank's a perfectionist, and if he saw that Jason wasn't as precise as him, he might see him as little more than a criminal. But then again, after learning what Joker did to him, he might instead take pity on Jason and actually help him.
@@louthegiantcookie
Joker would have a very bad day.
@@louthegiantcookie no he wouldn’t. If anything he’d tell him stop being like him and that’s before he finds out who he is
Thank you for making this video Micah it was very cathartic 👍
I do my best.
Deadpool and Wolverine get a pass because they have more fantasy elements in them than Frank does in himself. Frank feels a bit more real than them.
yeah uhh i don’t think he’s ever been considered a villain he quite clearly fits into the antihero role
The Punisher is an anti-hero, not a villain, yes, he is darkly more real than the Marvel fantasy universe other characters, but he's still an anti-hero, he almost has a breakdown when Jigsaw tricked him into believing he killed a young girl during a shootout. Frank later leaves the criminals in the issue to be dealt with by their victims, a villain wouldn't do that.
Just started the video and i wanted to say this about Batman and punisher because i feel not enough people bring this up. Batman and punisher are fictional characters who are usually portayed to be very intelligent who also have to deal with dangerous criminals. Batman as a character functions because of his restraint of violence and so on because of his no killing rule. Punisher is the opposite because he has a violent nature that gets bad guys killed. Both batman and punisher go after people who DESERVE whatever punisher and batman throw at them. They always go after bad people and always do what they think is right because they are protagonists. THEY FIGHT BAD PEOPLE!! THATS THE POINT!! THEY'RE NOT FASCISTS OR SECRET BADGUYS. We as consumers can't forget that the audience is omnipotent and ALMOST ALWAYS know which way karma is supposed to go. The story is supposed to side with batman and punisher because we know their badguys deserve to be punished. No pun intended. Let good and anit heroes beat up badguys.(in hopefully well written stories)
Those who use the Punisher skull because of what they think he represents are grossly misunderstanding him.
🤡
No, we are not.
It's just a skull. It's not that deep.
Frank is a complex character. An anti-hero to be sure but he has a long history, and he hasn't always played the hero in the anit-hero as much as he eventually did.
The irony that members of LE and the military (maybe not so much the green suiter side since execution of their mission set cleaves closer to how the Punisher operates but there's still rules to abide by whereas for the vigilante...).
Frank, though, was pretty clear about the differences between what he does and what LE does.
“I’ll say this once. We’re not the same. You took an oath to uphold the law. You help people. I gave all that up a long time ago. You don’t do what I do. Nobody does.
“You boys need a role model? His name is Captain America, and he’d be happy to have you.”
I've been in LE for going on 25+ years. Military before that. Being a fan of Frank I understand and respect the way he was written and what his character said and why. The moral of his story.
I cannot say the same for a lot of my fellow LE. Nor a lot of civilians.
Frank is a great hero because he kills while others are great in spite of not killing
John Romita Jr is my favorite Punisher artist by far. The warzone art was epic
lol “Potato Merchants”, as someone who is half Irish I’d call them “Guinness drinkers” but fair! At the end of the day Frank only uses violence against those who deserve it!
frank castle punisher is a antihero to me in my opinion. ;)
I was going through some clips yesterday on the 1994 version of the crow with Brandon Lee and in the comments there was a dude bitching about how he doesn’t like movies and comics like the crow and punisher because it puts “villains” like them in a good light. I don’t understand what people’s problems are with dirt bags taking a dirt nap.
This video is fantastic, thank you for creating it! I think you're right on the money. The Punisher isn't a villain, he's a deeply misunderstood hero. He has a code, he never harms innocents, he dispenses a kind of justice that our softened society is afraid of but a kind of justice nonetheless. I have the hottest of all takes (!) in saying that I think Punisher is a better and purer hero than Batman. While Batman hypocritically values the lives of the psychos he locks up but never seems to value the lives of the people he allows to die by not killing the killers, Punisher is rescuing people preventatively. Batman is too self-righteous to blemish his sanctimonious purity enough to be effective but the Punisher is self-sacrificial: he knows he has to become a monster to fight monsters and he's willing to compromise his own civility in order to make sure those killers never harm anyone again.
And I hate to get political but, let's face it, the reason Punisher isn't allowed to be considered a hero is because he is ideologically opposed to everyone who works at Marvel. The far left wishes death upon patriotic Americans who don't vote like they do but for murderers, rapists and thieves, they feel nothing but kinship. They just can't wrap their heads around a lethal vigilante being *GOOD.* That's why I don't think you will ever see another correctly-written portrayal of Frank Castle from Marvel again. The current creative "talent" (word used generously) won't allow for the possibility that lethal force can be used for good, they don't even want their hero characters to have guns. It's pathetic.
Great video! Keep it up!!
*5:23-when you realize American courts have been subverted so trials by jury do not happen, then understand why Leo's are sick of scum getting back onto the street. The Punisher is an answer when the system is purposely broken.
It's the "Criminal" justice system, not the victim justice system.
Excellent review. This is the reason why I like the Punisher - he's a complex and tragic anti-hero vigilante who does questionable things for a greater good. Sure, that sounds extremistic, but Punisher actually have a point about the inept justice system and corruption there.
RAY STEVENS RIP
My feelings to Punisher is more akin to those of Arthur Morgan and John Marston, good characters but very debatable to say whether you consider them heroes or villains.
Rey Stevenson is the most comic accurate Punisher.
People who say Punisher is a villain are the same people who get out of the shower to take a piss.
The punisher can be a villain. It depends. Either way hes interesting. But he always has a code.
Exactly if Frank is the ultimate anti-hero, he is like a villain, but he’s not. He’s a twisted hero. He might not like killing, but to not would break his vow. He tries to eliminate evil so that no one has to end up like his family
One of the things I love about Frank Castles the Punisher as a character is that even though he’s methods are questionable he still has some humanity and the desire to do good. While yes you may say “killing criminals makes you no better then them” you have to understand that sometimes you can’t blindly trust the criminal justice system especially if they have corrupt authorities figures, not to mention not everybody can’t be redeemed. And the people who say he should be a villain because Cops, U.S soldiers and “the far right” like him should fuck off! 😒
Remember that the Far Right stormed the beaches of Normandy.
@@KopperNeoman
That's true.
The modern "leftists" who claim the mantle of those who fought Nazism in the '40s would consider everyone who fought the Nazis (the real ones) back then to be "literal Nazis".
Now, many of those men did hold views that were racist and bigoted. That was the fact of the time, and that is lamentable. However, holding those views did not make them Nazis. It just meant they held views that were wrong. Hopefully many had the chance to change their minds as the years passed.
From all my time liking the character, what I know mainly that Frank Castle is a deeply unwell person. In the framing of the story, he is the means of catharsis as we see people the books building as some of the worst in humanity punished for hurting innocent people, but as a character himself Frank has not been well since he was small, and nobody stopped to help him.
He is not a villain like people who wanted and did cancel him wanted, but he is not someone to be idolized like people who don't know a lick about him apart from shoot criminals.
We've been shown in countless stories as a man in love with war, even if he himself would want to fight it, be it burning a bully alive when he was just a kid or serving three terms in Vietnam. He's picked a war he knows he cannot win. He's been placed against different groups of human or inhuman threats, demons, monster killers, ice giants and dark elves, but he has always done it to protect some group or another.
You cannot argue that what he's doing didn't help spare someone from a monstrous treatment, but you cannot argue Frank himself is of a sane mind, even if he always has enough empathy to care enough to fight for someone.
Does the anti-hero Punisher consider himself an anti-villain?
"The bad guy who hurts other bad guys"
I remember watching this channel back in 2013. I forgot why i stopped but its still nice to see your still uploading to this day.
Even though there are times when I would prefer that the punisher would have Agent 47's level of subtly, there's no way I'd ever consider him a true villain.
Not the point of the video, but reminding me why I like the Punisher, even if he's never been one of my favorites, just makes me look forward to the Marvel Vs Capcom Arcade Collection even more.
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I never played _The Punisher_ Arcade game before. >_>
The Punisher/Frank Castle is a force of nature fashioned to do a job not even Wolverine can.
Punisher is my favorite anti hero along side with deadpool❤
As a marine, I appreciate the catch in soldier vs marine. But I wouldn’t hold it against you since most people don’t know the difference.
Frank isn’t a villain, but he’s nowhere near a hero. He’s a serial killer who targets criminals. Having an excuse doesn’t make you justified, especially with the things he has done. He’s brutally murdered criminals in front of kids, killed former villains recruited by Captain America, killed a reformed Stiltman and then attacked his funeral, and has canonically murdered children: The Punisher (2002) issue 18, The Punisher Back to School Special.
I don’t even consider him an anti-hero. When I think anti-hero I think Ghostrider, Blade, Venom, and Wolverine. Sure they kill, but their goals aren’t always just to kill people. It’s to reach a goal, and catch a few bodies on the way if needed. He’s too brutal and unyielding for me to consider him being any type of hero.
You're video title is wrong. There's no discussion needed
Wrong how?
He's not a villian.