Outlaw vs Sub | Which is the Best Spec for M+?
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
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Both outlaw and sub rogue are incredibly good right now, all the top players seem to be favouring sub, but which is actually the best spec?
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
00:38 Damage Comparison
01:26 Single Target
02:18 Dungeon Slice
03:32 AoE
05:18 Log Review
09:09 Damage Overview
12:21 Defensives and Utility
14:12 Conclusions
16:30 Outro
#worldofwarcraft #mythicplus 
Игры
This is exactly the video I have been waiting for!
I'm glad you said sub is easier than outlaw, some people fight me on this. I'd actually argue that Sub is closer to the classic Combat spec than Outlaw is because you (more or less) keep up slice, rupture, and use eviscerate with cooldowns, and that's it!
One thing that I want to add is that Outlaw has a very nice "Set it and forget it" mentality for AOE. You can talent into spreading your ruptures but because of the way the talent is designed, you have to constantly move to apply your ruptures to targets correctly, and that can be annoying. Outlaw allows you to do your single target dps in the general direction of everyone and performs well, and it's the number 1 reason I decided not to switch to sub
(also I already invested all my sparks of inspiration into versatility/crit gear T_T)
Just adding to this, I simmed myself in a similar method, D Slice, PW1, PW5, and PW10, using my own gear. I determined my best gear by using the PW1 model for both specs then used the "best" gear from my bags. The catch is that my gear is itemized with Versa/Crit because I main outlaw.
My findings were consistent with what you had-- Outlaw outperformed in Dslice by about 7k, Sub won PW1 by about 4.7k, Outlaw won PW5 by just under 3k, then Sub won PW10 by about 21K!
In my case, this says that even with suboptimal gems and enchants, Sub outperforms Outlaw, which is a little sad for my favorite spec
Love outlaw only because Vers is mainstat and that helps alot for survivability in higher keys :D
Imo Sub is also much better at spread cleave with their range which probably explains the NO logs. Since there is always those one or 2 mobs that stay out of the pack (archer, chant of the dead)
Also brewmaster in one key. But warrior in the other. So outlaw actually had the better buff in those runs.
Nice video! Sad to see you go tho... ;D
Please do a video guide on Sub :)
Cool video, however I would have loved to see the numbers and sims with something a little more realistic like a 415 or 418 ilvl build. Not many people are going to get 421 ilvl with all bis. Probably won't change much and just my 2 cents :) Great video!
Okay the log comparison was awesome! Thanks!
I mostly pug my M+ and after dabbling in both, I find it much easier to compete as outlaw purely due to the survivability and mobility. Can't always trust a pug group is going to do what they should so having that extra security has saved my ass a few times now.
Outlaw needs a competitive build without dance. Make spec a little bit easier. Tea/Ambush is good but struggle at Tyr on bosses. However. Tree boss at Algatar is incredibly fun as sub.
What macros do you suggest for sub rogue? Thanks!
I tried to make the switch to Sub, but I cant stand having to apply abilities (rupture) to every target, could never stand maintaining dots on any build and this feels too similiar for me to play it, loving outlaw a ton and smashing. Great vid thanks for the all the info.
the rupture is really only useful at 3-4 targets, anything after i use it on my main target and forget about it
Its 2-3 globals lol
@@trebortnulb5279 HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh man, if I only knew that. I def want to play a spec that isn't fun to me now that you pointed that out, your contribution is one of a kind. Thank you.
@@existenceghost9701 seek therapy little guy.
@@trebortnulb5279 Genius another amazing observation, get called out for a dumb comment and then get personal, good call big guy.
updates/predictions on the new ranking of rogues after 10.1? really hoping assassination is viable
For raid Assa will be good, for m+ its going to be sub again imo, maybe outlaw, but the number of dungeons with big pulls and where funnel will be useful will make sub king again I think
We need to talk a bit about items though.
If we talking BiS - Sub has access to 424 weapons (in Raid - need 7/8 M) - while outlaw can only get 421 at best. Its obvious that 3more itemlevels in weapon is relevant for damage in general.
So for example the "worse" performing outlaw rogue for example, plays with 421 whetstone and 415 hunger of the pack and a 421 mainhand vs the sub guy playing with 421 boon 424 grimtorch, 424 mainhand, both of the high-end raiding rings A(421 and 431). Ofc guy is doing higher numbers like, thats not even a comparison, just comparing overall itemlevel is not gonna help there. Theres so much more we need to talk about than sims (which are worthless in a real world scenario) and logs (which are never a good comparisson for so much reasons).
Also I agree outlaw is harder to play perfect by far, and with the builds right now you will run into a hole ofr 10 seconds having no energy and no damage if you fail and or beeing extremly unlucky, sub dosnt have this. In Aoe youcanot run out of energy and in single target its part of the spec to run out of energy. - theres less failure potential which hurts hard like that in terms of rotation.
Than again we can talk trinkets alot by now - I'm not sure that boon is the best choice by default, when we talking numbers vs clear time. Sure boon does big numbers since its aoe - but how much enhances it the clear time, specally when you dont play really big pulls. I mean its the saem reasoning for funneling with sub, its faster and/or saver in some situations but its allways worse for numbers. Best example for funneling woud be the tree boss in AA, sub can funnel tons of eviscerate into boss while doing way less damage on adds in this case. The same reasoning I coud do in another dungeon vote for going with Whetstone or if available mythic grim for any ST fight depending on team combination.
So the whole damage situation is a bit more complex. When I look at ur nokhud numbers for example I outperform the outlaw in this log by atleast 10k dps in Nokhud not using boon (which pushes numbers). So individual skill seems to still be a thing. In general alot of outlaws underperform big time.
Alos log numbers depend on team combination alot also. Theres alot of worthless damage (for example using boon on some irrelevant 20 spider pull in SBG, is good for a log, is very bad for clear speed, and generally bad gameplay. The same like all the guys pulling cd's into the double spider pull in SBG and obliterating it with some insane numbers, but its worthless damage, the spiders die either way, funnel into big spiders or even as a destro for example just going havoc and only using little spiders for shard generation (same for sub in this case, not using black powder) will end up in a faster clear speed but in less dps compared to doing full aoe combos into these.
Thing is, since the outlaw damage is sustained, he dosnt do aswell in big bursty setups since stuff just isnt alive anymore and if the damage is done its done, theres nothing more to do.
The reason sub is played with insane big pulls is that you have the funnel damage and the ability to stun everything while in shadowdance. When you pull like 5 groups, theres alot of control needed, and if it dosnt line up (cause of chaining it) a sub rogue is simply the best guy to manage this, nobody else can perma stun everything for 10 seconds straight and generate combo points with it. Cheap shoot is the game changer here.
WHy do I find that the opener and rotation for sub is much harder than outlaw lol. for outlaw i just track find weakness and between the eye but for sub the opener needs to be spot on to do dmg or else you fall flat.
Cause only by your last sentence I can tell you have no clou whats the deal with outlaw.
Simple example, you have 5 combo points, no ho proc, vanish up, sd on cd, 6 stacks of fth, what do you do now? SS? Vanish? FTH?
Outlaw has alot of different combinations of this problem you need to react to in a split second, and if you fuck up for 2 or 3 times you run out of energy and mimimi about your bad rolls. HO build in a nutshell.
Sub on the other hand is very controlled. You have 5 things you learn. ST burst, AOE burst, AOE normal, ST without burst (not counting funnel since its the same as AOE normal aka BP spam replaced by Eviscerate spam. And everytime you do it its the exact same thing, the only situation you get in the same problem as outlaw is in the ST without burst part, where sometimes its smarter ot just press nothing at all and wait for an autoattack to proc another combopoint while regeneration energy. But its all controlled enviroment, the burst plays the same allways, the aoe is the same allways. And the combinations are not even hard.
You get my point. If you have problems with sub, its like just learn the combos more often until its fine basicly. If you have problem with outlaw you need to get new brain, cause your just to slow thinking.
I'm not saying its genreally harder, it depends on the person, but its 2 different skillsets. The thing is I can write a macro which plays sub for me to a 95% effectivness (damage wise), I cant do that for outlaw since more thinking is involved in playing the basic rotation. Even though its only one rotation, since ST is basicly AOE, but that one rotation is not a rotation but a priority system with alot of variables. Thats why most outlaws do rly rly shit damage.
@@dynamicdissonance4016 holy shit bro, when I read your essay it felt like you had a split personality disorder. What are you even trying to say lol. I think 3k+ io & average 90 parse on 6/8m bosses kind of shows that I understand the basics of outlaw. Maybe you are a master, why don't you go write the guide on wowhead or something.
How does assassination fit into the equation? Does it compete at all ?
it does. Look up zerocool on raiderio or twitch. he beats meta specs in overalls in high keys on regular basis
Nope
assa is really bad in aoe but good enough to reach medium keys (18-20) and it makes alot of fun but u need ur spreading ability to do at least some good aoe dmg. and ur tank need to let u restealth no matter what.
@@1988antenne sry but thats nots true. If you ask rank 1 assa world he will tell u that assa in m+ is rly strong in aoe but will fall behind on ST with the m+ build. How i know? cause i asked him on stream a week ago and he explained where the problems of assa are.
Sub guide soon??
AM SO NERVOUS!!!!!!!!
which rogue spec is the easiest? looking to roll a rogue alt to practice dps but I'd prefer an easy rotation so I can focus on cc / mechanics lol
Outlaw rotation it's easier but faster paste . Sub it's more about knowing how to manage your cds which might make it more difficult for new players .
sub is waaay easier imo, like way easier. I don't know if its my old age, but hitting the same opener with sub rogue just feels so much easier to me than the incredibly reactive rotation of outlaw, I'm still making mistakes as sub, but as outlaw I'd constantly notice I was using globals incorrectly because its so fast paced
@@galeaggtv oh i now see you had already answered my question in the video I just hadn't watched it all the way through yet lmao my bad
I find sub rogue a lot easier and more enjoyable to play. I only do pugs and the biggest strength of Sub imo is the AoE dmg and target swap. Not being depending on tank keeping the mobs tight together and make it a lot easier on target swaps for interrupts and stops while still being able to do great dmg. A pull like the mobs before tree boss in AA is so much easier on a Sub compared to Outlaw. I am a bad outlaw player though :P
outlaw is an extreme hard spec to master. the time u have to react to proccs is so damn short. sub is way way easier to play and way easier to make massive aoe dmg. i have a hard time as outlaw to hit big aoe numbers. even with bladefury. one missclick and the dps drops drastically.
SUB IS LOVE
SUB IS LIFE
Assa mate ..the answer is Assa!
sub master class when? :D
As someone who has played both this expansion (and mostly outlaw since bfa), sub is simply better and WAY easier. To play outlaw at a high level you have to play the keys like Mozart and think like Einstein. To play sub at a high level you need a tank who can big pull…
For people new to rogue sub is a way better choice. Blizzard needs to figure out how to make outlaw competitive in high keys without making it impossibly complicated to play.
outlaw is the meme spec
i play both specs and i cant believe people say sub is harder than outlaw, sure less movement and less tankier but the rotation i picked up in less than a day, outlaw took me a week to get used to everything
they still live in SL
outlaw is by far the hardest spec to learn as rogue. im training for 3 days now and my dps is not even close to my sub...
Outlaw hurts my wrist with the .8sec GCD. Had to switch to sub for my health.
@@SnotRocket123 i totally feel it :D my huge problem is, i run out of energy on assa no matter what i do and i dont udnerstand how my char sims over 80k dps in st...
Ah what a time to be assassination... /cry
Shadow dance should not be in the class tree - it is so anti thematic for outlaw, it’s awkward to play, and just not fun compared to past iterations
Big fan of your content Galea. One favour I would ask is to remove that god awful music playing in the background as you speak, makes it near impossible to understand what you're saying.
Sub rogue's opener is 11 different attacks. Saying that sub is easier is wrong in so many levels.. I agree when learning the rotation that it feels easy, but that is just muscle memory built up.
Outlaw is basically keeping blade flurry up and mashing ambush and filling in the gaps with pistol shot.
Not really agreeing here. I really feel that after playing sub for awhile I still feel that the spec is wonky. When entering shadowdance and you need to swap targets mid dance for a kick you might loose 30% of your damage due to missing a macabre stack.
Outlaw imo is a better spec for softcore players, since pug tanks tends to pull as you said smaller packs.
Ye you clearly have no clue what you're talking about, I'm 3100+ io. "Mashing ambush and filling in the gaps with pistol shot"? huh, do you even know how the spec works. Also in your Shadow Dance windows as Sub why'd you ever need to tab out of your main target, have you ever heard of Focus Kick or Mouseover Kick? lmao
@ghozter1
You are boasting with 3100+ don't make me laugh
@@haxxxarn lol that's all you got after my whole comment? you've no idea how either of the specs work, outlaw nor sub. Like how could you even "miss a macabre stack" that makes no sense. And yeah 3130 is not the highest of scores if we compare it to the absolute best, but it sure is higher than you'll ever be
@@ghozter1
Not going into personal arguments with you.
3130 rio this late is not even that impressive, im higher than that and I consider myself a softcore player🤣
I've played both specs, I enjoy outlaw more.
Going for higher keys sub is going to come out on top.
@@haxxxarn what's ur rio then? better yet, msg me in-game so I know you're not pretending to be someone else's character :P
Terribly flawed video, assassination has 4 s's in the name, true meta spec
🤣