Xbox Bans Emulators in Retail Mode... | MVG
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- Xbox has banned the use of UWP apps including emulators and certain homebrew running under Retail mode on the Xbox One and Xbox Series line of consoles. This is a blow to the emulation community but all is not lost. In this episode we discuss what happened, why and what the future holds.
Ars Technica Article - arstechnica.co...
Xbox QA email - Al...
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#Xbox #Emulators #UWP
I had a feeling using Retail Mode for emulation was flying a bit too close to the sun, but its still sad to see it not supported any more.
Porting Xenia probably sealed the deal, it was directly competing with Microsoft Store.
@@OneLastScholar thats my guess too. :/ damn. I really wanted to see Switch and PS3 on my Series S
@@applehazeva2739 you can still pay like twenty dollars for dev mode. Or does series S not have that?
still need to spend $20 to get access to developer mode. On X or S
@@OneLastScholar They said they had legal issues with Nintendo. So its Nintendos fault.
You really don't want to motivate hackers to go after your console. From what I've see, when it comes to piracy, the harder someone makes it, the more motivated pirates are.
My console was set to "Always On" but hadn't been used in ~ a week since I got a much better gaming laptop. I unplugged my router, forgot my network connection and set offline. Lo and behold my Retail Mode emulators all still work. It is funny they mentiom part of the reason was they "require permissions beyond normal app usage which could be considered a security concern". It is like they accidentally showed their cards and could be potentially exploited by the few consoles that still have access like mine.
Eh we’ll see. Since it’s still available through Dev mode I think most folks are happy to pay the $20
*Motivated*
@@GreenLeefMusic I'm not convinced that was a real concern. "Requires permissions beyond normal app usage" .. like what? The only reasonable answer I can come up with is how emulators essentially require external file I/O, through USB or network protocols.
The fact that this was ever permitted at all means that the Xbox team have pretty high confidence that their fortress is well secured. That does not bode well for the opposition party.
Good luck, hackers. I always like to see every console busted wide open, because the further we go, the more they tighten the screws, and the less likely there will be any ability to enjoy this stuff 15+ years from now.
@@nickwallette6201 Yeah that part is complete bullshit. These system are so locked down that there's no way an app can simply "require permissions beyond normal app usage" without it being fully supported and in-spec. And the idea of delisting the apps instead of patching the vulnerabilities is laughable.
6:26 This is what bothered me too. Delisting from stores is fine, but disabling existing apps on a user's machine is not cool.
Look at it this way. If this was Sony or Nintendo your account would be banned, so compared to those two Microsoft is still the good guy here.
@@DoritosBurger So true, Nintendont and $ony are the worst gaming company and the most overrated too!!
pay 20 bucks and youll be fine
@@DoritosBurger Does sony block Playstation emulators on xbox?? Cmon man
@Shaggy Rogers IKR?!
The real problem here is that MS can effectively disable any game/application you have on your system. Slowly but surely they pretty much killed physical ownership and now they can kill "digital ownership" as they wish. It's game over for game preservation, collecting etc. Sad.
This is the very reason I still buy physical copies of games.
@@amnril The problem is that most of the physical games are just a pathetic shell and you still need to go and download the "real" game... but yeah - I still buy them...
@@RetroTechCorner Yes, sadly that is a problem for many games (not all of course) but tbh, I’d rather that than digital in many cases. I often pick up GOTY editions as they usually have all updates and DLC included.
And you let it happen 😊
You will own nothing and be happy. Is anyone surprised?
I agree that MS being able to block already installed applications this way is concerning. Might even be the real headline here.
They've done it before... on PC. ElDewrito in 2018... A defender definition update marked the exe as a virus.
If the concern is that MS has blocked this specific app, then I do agree with MS in the approach for this instance. Malware is a concern because it becomes MS’s problem to resolve because of the carelessness of the consumer. If the concern is that MS may block any app ad-hoc then yes you may worry but that is a worry for an event that hasn’t happened.
@n n Rather just not buy a device I don't own.
Sorry but why is this somehow not expected and couldn't be used in an appropriate way? Most if not all apps anywhere check for updates on startup for ease of use, hence they connect to official servers at least momentarily. Complain about that all you want, but keeping apps *connected to your official servers* safe, legal, and stable is obviously necessary.
@@mateostenberg and this is why it's pretty much useless when using an Xbox offline because of this practice it's shady as fk to kill an app people already have downloaded
The only annoying thing about dev mode is the default settings that asks you if you want to delete all of your files when exiting. Other than that, I started using it for about 2 weeks now and have been loving it. Still unfortunate this has happened but makes sense.
Get Safe Exit, keeps all your stuff intact
im not paying for that mode just to use emulators we need a hacker community around this series of consoles to show microshaft their shit isnt secure
@@billyhatcher643 k
@@billyhatcher643 I'll wire you the $19 if it gets you to shutup about it.
@@billyhatcher643skill issue
This is why I never advocated for retail mode when it comes to emulators! While it's very clear cut from MS's side that Dev mode is free rein, Retail mode has never had that same promise, so this was inevitable from the beginning. Still totally worth it to install Dev mode though! I still transition between modes pretty seamlessly.
I don’t even get how dev mode emulation worked for so long, it was too dangerous for ms to have it allowed playing games that are currently available in the Microsoft store and not only SNES era games.
At least anyone that wants to play can do on dev mode.
after you get dev mode, is the process of getting the emulators and games basically the same?
@@Jollofmuncher2000 Yeah, but with some extra steps
Exactly. People knew better than this. Dudes who were using dev mode beforehand didn't need all of this negative attention from MS due to people doing dumb stuff like uploading to retail mode nonstop even when the apps would get removed time and time again. Did the retail mode uploaders expect MS to not care when they uploaded Xenia onto their own store??? People can't be arsed to do things right and just use dev mode, which MS never cared about??? I can't even believe that retail mode users are acting like they're entitled to use retail mode for emu when they were never even allowed to have those apps uploaded there in the first place!
Dev Mode will be next. They won’t allow Xenia to be installed via dev mode and since they took down everything to take down Xenia…
Blocking apps which breach their ToS and removing games just because they’re old or whatever are two VERY different issues
Agreed. It would’ve been nice if they just cut off UWP apps like that while letting us who had them installed before the ban to still use them. Like that’s how it is when phone apps get removed from the play stores and they still work until a major OS overhaul update makes them useless
@@BallisticGhast6 Actually, that last part isn't 100% true, Apple and Google _absolutely_ have the capability to remotely delete specific apps (or versions of apps) from your device, sideloaded or not, jailbroken/rooted or not. Google's version is called Play Protect (idk the name for the apple equivalent), and it's basically a blocklist of APKs that, supposedly, are "deemed to be malicious" and are automatically deleted on sight from the client device, without warning to the user. They did this to kill any remaining installs of Google Play Music after people found and began distributing a pre-killswitch version of the APK, and if a nationwide TikTok ban comes to pass, Google (and Apple) will almost surely be ordered to add that app to their blocklists as well, to forcibly remove them from client devices (because merely removing it from the app store isn't gonna stop anyone, nor will DNS blackholing, etc)...
Wow they actually called out Nintendo. I was expecting the typical non-answer.
From U.S. V. MICROSOFT 2001: COURT'S FINDINGS OF FACT
"411. Many of the tactics that Microsoft has employed have also harmed consumers indirectly by unjustifiably distorting competition. The actions that Microsoft took against Navigator hobbled a form of innovation that had shown the potential to depress the applications barrier to entry sufficiently to enable other firms to compete effectively against Microsoft in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. That competition would have conduced to consumer choice and nurtured innovation. The campaign against Navigator also retarded widespread acceptance of Sun's Java implementation.
This campaign, together with actions that Microsoft took with the sole purpose of making it difficult for developers to write Java applications with technologies that would allow them to be ported between Windows and other platforms, impeded another form of innovation that bore the potential to diminish the applications barrier to entry. There is insufficient evidence to find that, absent Microsoft's actions, Navigator and Java already would have ignited genuine competition in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. It is clear, however, that Microsoft has retarded, and perhaps altogether extinguished, the process by which these two middleware technologies could have facilitated the introduction of competition into an important market.
412. Most harmful of all is the message that Microsoft's actions have conveyed to every enterprise with the potential to innovate in the computer industry. Through its conduct toward Netscape, IBM, Compaq, Intel, and others, Microsoft has demonstrated that it will use its prodigious market power and immense profits to harm any firm that insists on pursuing initiatives that could intensify competition against one of Microsoft's core products. Microsoft's past success in hurting such companies and stifling innovation deters investment in technologies and businesses that exhibit the potential to threaten Microsoft. The ultimate result is that some innovations that would truly benefit consumers never occur for the sole reason that they do not coincide with Microsoft's self-interest."
That person is not actually an official Xbox rep speaking on behalf of MS - they are a QA person. we don't even know if they are correct as to the reason. A real PR statement isn't going to name companies.
One thing i could say to Nintendo is f*ck Nintendo and Nintendrone who defend this company for doing shitty business which forced Microsoft to shutdown emulator!!
Nintendo and PS are the worst gaming company ever exists, the most overrated too !!!
The Nintendo thing was recently debunked, they removed them as a result of their policies stating that any software that emulates a system isn't allowed
@@jasonmartinez5116 debunked, or putting out fire?
I had a feeling this was going to happen ever since it was first possible. Just seemed inevitable
I thought it would happen eventually, but i also had this feeling about the series S... mostly judging from what we've seen in the past. I thought that, eventually, there's going to be a *lot* of used series S out there, and they'll be cheap. And maybe, people are actually going to start really *wanting* these things because of a mod of some kind. Use as like a pc or emulation machine or something.
That was one of my early predictions anyway. But it's hard to say, since things aren't all like they were in the past. Although there's some highly intelligent and talented people out there who do make amazing things happen despite the odds.
hahahahahahahah i had a feeling you would cry about boy
get at me noob
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha you are noob
@@lordsosa9383 cope harder. Maybe your mom will buy you something nice if you keep doing your homework, then you won't need to fail at trolling like this anymore
@@derealized797 im no troll
im the biggest baddest boy in the world boy
so you better watch your mouth
I have a feeling emulators will be back on retail pretty soon in one way or another
hope so. i was planning on doing this on my series s
@@thomsonsalimon4129Still can just gotta buy the 20 for dev mode
They will it always happens in time
You guys don't seem to really understand what happened this time.
@@Richiefreshhh You wanna enlighten us?
With Dolphin coming to Steam, what if Microsoft starts listing emulators in their Microsoft Store as standalone apps?
MS doesn't care that much about their customers to do it.
Apparently RetroArch is listed in the command-line Winget store.
It gets tricky with game licenses. It would be legal if you have the original disc. However, that can get complicated quickly
They are looking into it!
@@Imseeking The message seemed to suggest they'd only approve specific apps specifically licensed by game or platform developers.
I can't lie, I suspected this would happen when the standalone Dolphin and the PS2 emulator were released. it was so good, and also so easy that I wondered how long MS would allow it. I have the same concern with Dolphin coming to Steam - if emulation gets too big, too easy and too widespread, that's what's going to motivate the likes of Nintendo to step up their efforts to shut it down entirely. It almost needs to stay inconvenient enough that only enthusiasts will bother with it.
Lol why all the doom and gloom? Nintendo/Sony and Microsoft can't do anything with emulators. Emulators are legal. Pirating roms is not. Nintendo can't do a thing about dolphin coming to steam. They have lost so many court cases and will continue to do so. As long as they don't provide ways to circumvent the need for bios or keys you'll be able to use your favorite emulators.
Nintendo would not have won any lawsuit with Microsoft pertaining to this issue. Microsoft just caved since it also helps Microsoft to remove these emulators (think xenia cutting into profits, and the read/write permission debacle)
The steam deck is marketed as an alternative to windows gaming. If valve removed emulation from the steam deck everyone would just install windows, and steam os would die. Emulation has been driving the sales of the steam deck since launch basically. And then you have all of the chinese companies releasing small handheld emulation devices. If nintendo wants a fight they're going to have to fight everybody. My guess this is an independent decision by microsoft, and has little or nothing to do with nintendo.
@@ransacked they keep with that bullshits. they don't know. they should stop writing bullshits about this thread
@@FriedEgg101 wtf you saying? another bullshit. steam deck is not just emulation and every emulator runs on Linux. you keep saying bullshits.
I had thought Dev mode was the only way to utilize homebrew emulators.
I haven't looked into dev mode on my Xbox One X but may start looking into that soon!
It was originally dev mode only for years but they had added a way to install apps which arent in the store in retail mode but now there blocking it
I thought they restricted consumer access to dev mode in the past couple years. Am I wrong?
@@MMOchAForPrez no. That was just an error on their side. Dev mode is still available afaik (,I don't use it since I got my Steam Deck lol)
@MMOchAForPrez I think it was just a mistake that they disabled some peoples dev mode access they renabled there access once they realised the mistake
Dev mode requires more setup that the retail mode but once you understand it it's pretty easy
We so often come back to the problem of ownership in digital media. Anything that has an online-required component-even if the totality of the code is on the machine-can be blocked, deleted, or banned from your system. This is beyond absurd.
In the enterprise space, you can use things indefinitely with many hardware ir software packages, but if you don’t pay for support, you don’t get updates or vendor help. That’s fine. You literally get what you pay for and it’s yours.
Too many companies have put retail products behind license server logins on run. Single player games that run the AI and store player data server-side only are just galling. The situation just plain sucks for anyone who travels, or has any issues with local networking/services. It makes what would be a good game experience either bad or impossible. And this all sidesteps issues of rights ending, companies going out of business, and planned obsolescence.
"In the enterprise space, you can use things indefinitely with many hardware ir software packages, but if you don’t pay for support, you don’t get updates or vendor help. That’s fine. You literally get what you pay for and it’s yours."
Oh don't worry, that's changing too. Especially with SaaS.
People need to stop choosing convenience over rights, or else we're going to have neither. Digital-only consoles should sit on the shelf and collect massive layers of dust. This is important, and it's almost too late.
When Xenia was added that crossed the line. Microsoft got aggressive because it’s own console was being emulated
That's a cope.
As you said, this was inevitable. EMU devs found a loophole and exploited it. Did anyone really think that MS was not going to plug the loophole? It's a shame but totally expected.
The Stockholm Syndrome is strong. People calling _the freedom to run own programs_ (on the hardware you bought) a "loophole".
but at the same time they're dictating what someone can do with a piece of hardware they paid for...
@@someguy4957its sad that this standard is seen as unachievable and "too good to be true" today
@@someguy4957 you can still run emulators as long as you go dev mode.
They are basically limiting what you can do on retail mode and if you were at risk of legal processes from Nintendo or sad devs that see their games(from Xbox OG era) being emulated for free instead of purchased through the store, you’d do the same.
You can still do whatever you want with your hardware as long as it’s not in retail mode, you can do way more than you can do on a switch or a PS5.
@@demontferrat There's nothing illicit or illegal about using an emulator, that lawsuit would never stick.
If Microsoft thinks that emulating is illegal then they would have blocked emulators in dev mode as well, it isn't like a game dev who was upset about emulation is suddenly going to be ok with it because you have to pay MS $20 for a dev mode license.
It's always Nintendo that pulls the plug on people having good fun, that's why I stick to Dolphin on the PC since then, Nintendo can't do a thing but cry as they kiss my ass.
Right. Why even try emulating on garden-walled platforms? Play on open platforms like the PC. No one can block that.
If it involves games that aren't being sold, I can say yes, but there are people out there jail breaking switches to run anything or ps4s/ps5s... and yet you act like a company doesn't have a right to stop it
@@Krushak8888 Nintendo workers aren't going to struggle to put food on the table because I'm emulating Paper Mario TTYD from 2004.
@@dewottmaster7720 Greedy pigs.
Until they pressure Microsoft to mandate SmartScreen on every Windows install and block emulators there too. At that point, the only option will be Linux.
"In the future, you'll own nothing and enjoy it"
I'd just sell the stupid xbox citing 'it violates my ownership policy' and get a PC instead. Not like there's anything worth playing on xbox that isn't on PC.
Welp here starts the cat and mouse game of homebrew....
And How!
Nah, dev mode is still a thing
MVG and your empty threats 🤣🤣
If you can’t afford $20, you have bigger problems than hacking a console
I didn't realize emulators were in retail mode i thought it was always in dev mode.
yeah same.. Finding out after the effect. Nintendo threatened to sue with also mentioning it will allow hacking to find weaknesses in the system for an open hack. Of course they were going to fold.
You were properly misguided, otherwise you may have tried it in retail mode like the other dummies
Same. Surprised they were available through their legit store.
he even made a video
@@crystalwater505 Sadly Google don`t face Nintendo FINES
and thier apps that can steam movies for FREE
you will see many PS1 to PPSSPP emulators
which may emulator DS GAMES
In other words MS got a letter from Ninty's legal team.
this kinda stuff is why i wish xbox had a bigger modding\hacking scene. i assure you, knowing microsoft, whatever measures they put in place to block emulators from launching are ridiculously easy to circumvent if you put enough time and effort into it.
I could care less that Microsoft patched this.
I only ever used Developer Mode.
Xbox can't be modded past the 360.
Hackers rely on software exploits, but since the vast majority of Ones and Series are kept updated this route can't happen.
It's already easy to circumvent. Pay a small fee and run your console in dev mode.
@@solidsnake6405 not really I have a Mod Chip in my OG Xbox. You can bypass hardware and if it’s dependent on that hardware you can bypass a specific part of that hardware.
Anything Microsoft does is easy to circumvent.
Windows 11 system requirements anyone?
An azure dev said Microsoft wants to add emulators officially. They just need to figure the legality of it all.
Edit: this is mentioned in the video
Emulators are legal in the US, and in several other countries, there's no debate on this. Roms and bios must be provided by the user, as they are still copyrighted
I think it's more an issue with licensing any copyrighted assets rather than the legality of emulation itself
yeah we all know they will never make a "legal" emulator where you just have to supply an illegal bios ... not happening
Could mean more emulation sites getting taken down if that happens?
If microsoft is going to make their "own" nintendo and sony console emulators with resolution tweaks etc, they could really get in trouble. I mean with this the other companies could sue them for making a way to play their older games, but with better resolution and performance. The other companies' could be planning to re-release these older games on their systems and thus microsoft is bringing their future sells down. Even if it's the users who are providing their "own" games, this will still look bad for microsoft. IF microsoft would win the case, it means that sony and nintendo could as well make their "own" emulators and thus people could just play every systems games on every system. That could set back microsofts plans to have gamepass on other consoles too. Why even have a gamepass if you can already play most of the games for free. Why even buy the switch online if you can play every retro game on every system already, why buy the PS plus higher tiers when you can play every retro game on every console... FOR FREE.
I really dont see a future where this is going to happen.
Tips from someone that uses Dev Mode with zero issues:
1. Use Safe Exit to leave Dev Mode. Everytime.
2. Never use the internal storage for your side loaded apps
3. Use a USB 3.0 drive. I have a 128GB drive and it has more than enough space for all of my games and files
4. Go to settings and change your default menu to Retail Mode. This will make your Xbox have the normal home screen when you go into Dev Mode instead of the Dev Home.
This is why I always prefer to buy the disc of a game
Nintendo is literally the Karen of videogames.
@n n look at the previous sht nintendo has done (or attempted to do and failed miserably) and tell me with a straight face that it isn't karen levels of crazy to want to copyright strike tens of thousands of YT channels for having uploaded any content from a nintendo console in video form. and that's just ONE thing they tried to do to stick a giant middle finger into everyones face
@n n you don't seem to be getting what i was referencing. in the early-ish days of YT, nintendo tried to send mass takedowns and copyright strikes to *any* channel that had uploaded *any* nintendo game, or anything related to it (music, pixel art, old tv ads etc). I'm not talking about YT channels linking downloads or anything, and this isn't just a theoretical tool, they did actually do this crap, and then had to backpedal when half of YT and the press revolted
Thank Nintendo and their bloodthirsty Lawyers.
Imagine relying on Xbox for emulators. Geez, it literally requires an internet connection. They can lock you out at any time.
@@mpowerness92 imagine clowning on people for enjoying their system of choice. Geez.
Geez
Nintendo what? they cannot stop emulators. stop with that bullshits.
Imagine blaming Nintendo for this and not Microsoft, the friendliest trillion dollar company in the world
This power to block installed apps is concerning.
What happens if the Microsoft backend gets hacked, or a rogue employee with access just decides to block whatever they want?
Anything, that's what you get when you buy a console. Rental hardware and software.
As long as you set your Xbox offline open each game whilst online set offline then open each game again offline you will not loose access to your games. If hacks arrive you can safely enter Microsoft network risk free. My Xbox series x has been offline since Nov 2021 I get a few errors but they should go away once hacks are released and Microsoft is blocked by DNS and spoofing. And a fatal crash interceptor. Let’s hope!
Settings: set Xbox as HOME xbox.
Highlight: I get a few errors but they should go away once hacks are released
The dreaded DRM errors. I should’ve wrote them down... I’m sure you can find them if you need to. Anyways let’s hope that fixes ALL those errors!
It was only a matter of time feel bad for all the people who bought this console just for emulation purposes and now they have nothing of value to do with it
just buy a pc, its the God of Emulation.
This change is not surprising but I'm glad it appears Dev Mode will remain available to utilize for emulators going into the future. Licensing and business relationships are tricky things to maintain and I totally see why Microsoft enacted this policy change. Great video and thoughts MVG!
Dev mode is next, they’re not gonna let you sideload Xenia and play pirated 360 games. Patching that out in dev mode is taking longer hence it’s fine right now.
@@avae5343 so basically just dont update, or roll back if possible? I don't know adam from eve here, but isn't this a story as old as time?
@@davidhalper6447 Did you buy your series s as an emulation box?
@@avae5343 are you stupid? an azure dev literally said they not going to touch dev mode, also if they block that, they'll just make differently signatured program since dev mode allows you to run any UWP custom apps.
why did they not block developer mode on Xbox consoles but blocked retail mode for emulators.
A bit sad how "emulation" has become a dirty word in recent times. These older systems are so valuable for research, inspiration and education. Not to mention the archival aspect, as many of these games (roms) and systems are no longer available in any legitimate way.
Really? I feel like it's become more accepted recently. Mostly people feeling it's justified when you can't buy the old games anymore.
Recent times? It has been a dirty word since at least the 90s. Listed as illegal hacking topics on forums and chat channels along with warez, trainers and MP3s
Remember how MP3s were inherently illegal and that there is no legitimate/legal way to have one? x3 x3 x3
Though, in that list dirty 1337zors haxxors topicz (rules require that be spelled with far too many zs, xs and numbers for letters--to appease the dark gods of the 1990s) the place of MP3s has been taken up with "Torrents" (despite it not being spelled Torrentz... or xX_69Torrentz420_Xx). The council of 1337 topics is still filled... er... I mean "fillz0r3dz j0 j0 j0"
@@lpnp9477 accepted by the average person yes... But the companies still don't see the value. They would rather sit on an intellectual property for 4 decades and do nothing with it, than let enthusiasts and fans enjoy it and keep the memories alive.
Emulation has been a dirty word for about 25 years, bro
@@rennmaxbeta That's true. It still sucks though
I switched from Dev Mode to Retail when the whole "whitelist" thing went away in favor of just Discord notifications. I don't like the dual-boot rebooting (as I do have a few XB games), and I also found it challenging to update my Dev Mode apps. Additionally, I did have a couple of accidental wipes of my Dev Mode partition... which is easier to do than I'd like and which is a non-issue in Retail Mode.
But oh, well. It's kind of a moot comparison at this point. I'll have to set up Dev Mode again from scratch if I want to run my emulators.
Titanic: Unsinkable ship
PS3: unhackable console
Me: when will we learn?
Super Wii U: will never happen
Me: purchased a Wii U dev kit v4 unreleased 3gb ram ntsc-j 320gb internal HDD complete w/PC software disk, I have hopes of breaking into much of the hardware.
I would imagine that part of their agreement with Nintendo to get them to support their Activision acquisition included them removing *edit* the ability to emulate */edit* Nintendo properties from their store.
This is more than that, theyve always removed the emulators from the stores. This is blocking people from using the apps they downloaded months ago. Also, emulators aren't "nintendo properties". No nintendo properties were uploaded except arguably AM2R with its assets, which surprisingly, AM2R still launches.
@@M_CFV indeed so, but Nintendo are pretty infamous for legal action (actual or threatened), not to mention lobbying for laws, to protect their properties against a multitude of entities who may or may not deserve such action. I can imagine that this is just collateral. Anyway, just my uninformed opinion. Could of course be completely off the mark.
Even if it’s not Nintendo property, they might be a little upset seeing Mario 64 being played on Xbox so to get the deal signed with Nintendo they got to block emulators.
Microsoft can say that the emulators on retail mode breaking tos are banned and everything in dev mode is fine cause they have no say in what files developer’s download in a walled of sandbox
wtf you saying? it's Nintendo business to have cod running on switch. they earn from that, more then Microsoft. you can't say they said to Microsoft to remove something to have cod running on switch? what? they earn from that more then Microsoft
@@magicjack4076 bullshits. Mario 64 runs from years in every emulators. they cannot do anything about the emulator. it's legal. stop with that bullshit. emulators are legal.
This behaviour from Microsoft is a big blow to consumer confidence in digital storefronts on consoles, especially when observed alongside Nintendo shutting down the 3DS/WiiU shops, IMO.
The thing is, I don't see why this is really a issue. The benefit is, you don't get cheaters on Xbox. And this is a big one. It's bigger for me than the ability for Microsoft to block any app. BTW, this is not new and Microsoft already said that this is the case on Xbox one.
@@MikeLeitner this has nothing to do with cheaters what are you on about mate?
@@kazikoFPV it def has. Disallowing unauthorized code to run is a big one, how Xbox is running games is basically the reason they can block emulators afterwards and it’s the same how they could block exploits. The signing of the game, and it’s running meta data is stored only online and you need to be online with a offline Xbox for some time in 30 days I think, cause of expiring keys. As said Microsoft explained it in a 1h or longer video, how Xbox security architecture works, the by product is just the result of this and already worked since Xbox one days.
Xbox just lost the only nice thing they had
very true...
It's very sad to see things like this happen but more about what you said about them blacklisting things whenever they see fit and there is little you can do about it. Just one of those things I really dislike about live services.
Bro, people were emulating 360 games. Of course Xbox had to shut it down.
And this “app” they blacklisted couldn’t even be accessed by normal means. It was never approved of in the first place.
It's this kind of thing that drove me away from consoles. Nothing is yours, everything is transient, you will play the newest thing only and like it!
@@lpnp9477 PC doesn’t even have physical copies. In the unlikely event that steam shuts down, everything goes down with it.
@@TheOneToKeepYouWaiting Piracy is the only way to ensure preservation for both consoles and pcs unfortunately.
@@TheOneToKeepYouWaiting PC does have physical copies. People are just less likely to go out and get them when they can just download it, though.
I was considering getting an extra Xbox as a emulation machine but what's stopping MS from doing this for dev mode as well?
No way is that the real Yu from Persona 4 Golden? 😳
Nothing. If they lose the legal battle for this they have to take it away as well, and they always can do it themselves. Nothing on Xbox is granted because it’s always online.
After this, it would be a stupid idea to only buy it for emulation. Future update will just remove Dev Mode or only “authorised” users can use it after paying $100 a year.
@@svenabend360 if they remove my dev mode i will sue them
Nothing, they basically “allow “ us to use dev mode as long as they see fit. Just like Linux on ps3, it might get removed with a simple software update.
What concern me is how easy they can revoke that apps from your machine without hesitation
That's what happens when you rent a console from Microsoft.
Daily reminder that companies are not your friends.
So, it’s Nintendo’s fault. 🤨
Yeah, they chose to protect their IP. They're very serious about that, and for good legal reasons. The real surprise is that emulators were allowed on Xbox retail mode all this time. I had no idea. Seems unprecedented to me. It was only a matter of time before they went away. If it hadn't been Nintendo, it would have been someone else (e.g., Sony).
As usual.
It can be blamed on Sony too
as per effing usual. Starting to really hate that clownshow of a company (remember when they tried to take down what felt like half of YT because it had _any_ content from them in it?)
@Wild And that won't happen because Rare is owned by Microsoft
I mean, at least Dev Mode is still viable for modding but this is still a crushing blow for emulation. But I have to ask (and it may sound like a dumb question), could you still use Xenia or Dolphin in Retail Mode if you run your Series X or S without an internet connection to bypass them getting blocked or is that a no go?
nope just tried it it gives an error
I wouldn't call it a crushing blow when there's dozens of other options for emulation other just using an Xbox.
Maybe if your console was and remains in offline mode before they blocked it, possibly
Not a crushing blow at all
@@jspantonio8807 Yeah I personally don't care about emulation on Xbox. The option for dev mode is still there for now, atleast
NGL, I've been under the impression this whole time that you need to be in developer mode to run emulators. This is literally the first I've heard that it could be done in retail mode.
Me too! So it’s not a big deal apparently? Because from what I remember getting Dev mode is easy and under $30? I never heard of stock xbox playing emulators
@@brokenhero6828 like, I remember MVG doing a video specifically on emulation on the Xbox Series, and I swear he said you have to switch to Developer Mode. I'm so confused these days.
@@ProjectDv2 Bro same! LOL. Are you into tech in general? Ryzen 7040 cpus coming out promising 30 hours of video playback battery life on laptops.. seems a little too good to be true.
@@brokenhero6828 I am, but I only keep up with computer component tech when I'm ready to upgrade. It's too exhausting for me to follow it all, all of the time. But I'm with you, that seems dubious, and they *always* lie about specs like this. That's probably the absolute maximum possible battery life after turning literally everything imaginable down to the lowest possible settings. In other words, not a fucking realistic stat and basically utterly useless to the average person.
$20 for legal emulation is a small price to pay
I'd be perfectly fine with paying 20 bucks for dev mode if it wasn't for the credit card requirement. Barely anyone in Europe uses a credit card.
That's because they have other means of getting their information whether for paying or personal since they let their governments do it to them.
I started in dev mode and then moved to retail when the apps were up. It was nice to jump quickly between emulators and series games but I'm glad to still have the power of the box in dev mode
Until Microsoft starts disabling and limiting what you can run in dev mode, like what Sony did with PS3 Linux. At this point the Series X is pointless as an "emulation" station, it's less complicated to go with a PC setup and more reliable, you won't have to worry about programs disabled and removed silently and without warning like on the Xbox. Plus you don't have to deal with the god awful UI that is Xbox One Metro
You guys can blame nintendo for this shit they've always been mad about emulation and probably got mad about dolphin on xbox
Just pay the 20$
no. its supposed to be FREE.
Why did this change,
one word
"Nintendo"
Last time Sony removed Linux from the ps3 its security got completely destroyed...
Why would you trust Microsoft to not just disable dev mode in the future? It seems like custom firmware is the real path forward.
I mean they did before, so they can do it again.
It's always Nintendo...
Dev mode sucks. I'd rather just use Launchbox and Bigbox if I can't emulate in retail mode.
Nintendo: HOW DARE YOU PLAY THE BETTER VERSION OF GOLENEYE
I wish some members of the community would be more responsible in the way they talk about features like this. Too many people (whether out of honest ignorance, Xbox fanboyism, or sensationalist clickbaiting) promote features like this without providing the caveat that they can be restricted or taken away by Microsoft.
Thank you MVG for always striving to be honest, unbiased, and well informed when you talk about topics like this.
Classy of MS to not do anything about emulators until Xenia got released on the system.
I get why they did it. So it's like this if you sideload your emulator or app and if that emulator or app has malicious code inside and since this getting sign by Microsoft server it can pretty much make a backdoor for the attacker. And since the developer mod is like close off from the app Store any emulator,app or game is just on that device
Ironically security reasons are why the ps3 had its Linux stuff disabled and we all know how that turned out. This probably isn't that major of a motivator for modders to try to find ways to mod the system yet but I guess time will tell.
@@erxer1 that the party line a major companies use, and after storm that happened at PS when they got hacked game consoles company don't want to take chances again
yeah this might complicate things. the good news for me is VVVVVV & Sonic Time Twisted on my xbox is not impacted by its effects but the bad news is the rest of the emulators is impacted. so i guess it's back to NESBOX again. not to mention the Tnavigator (the Retrix clone) which apparently still works. (The game database update was broken & I only get to import games manually.)
This is what will forever separate consoles from PC's .
The idea that anyone has final word over what kind of software you can run or develop on your PC is laughable, it directly contradicts the basic principle of the system, but in the console world, it's the just the norm and is accepted.
Its things like this that validate my long-standing decision to only run Linux and open source software.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I used to think consoles having the ability to go online was awesome because it would always add to the experience. Unfortunately, DRM and shady business practices made me see how wrong I was. The only games you'll ever own are the ones you have physically and also backed up in a drive in case the physical media goes bad.
The seventh generation was truly the beginning of the end.
Minor correction: UWP is an acronym for Universal Windows Platform, the programs are called Universal Windows Applications
Yeah I don't trust any digital purchases on a closed platform, even though it is a little annoying to have to swap cartridges. They can still steal your purchase if they want to (see the way Blu-Ray discs work, with an updated ban list on each release) but it's a little bit harder at least. (Yeah licensed not sold bla bla bla. I could buy used SNES cartridges. I can sell used books. Etc...)
What do you do about PC games? GOG doesn’t have the biggest or best library.
Well said. This is why I only buy digital through PC. Seam, GOG have been around forever while on the closed platform it's up to the console creators to shut the store down whenever they see fit and they have no competing digital front.
That's why I will never buy an Xbox console ever again and I own the classic Xbox and the 360.
I got a PS4, used it well and now it's just jailbroken so that I never lose my games, physical or digital. I can even backup (and edit) my saves without PS Plus. This is good to preserve on disc pre order content or bypass the grind in more monetized games.
And as it has been mentioned, buying digitally on PC is fine. I own some delisted games from years ago on Steam and they're still playable. Even if they weren't somehow, there are other ways ^^
Honestly? I'd be more comfortable with PC games but I don't honestly play many.
I literally picked up the Xbox x like last month because dos peaked my interest as something else i can do on the system. Now I have to pay a one time fee to do that? What a slap to the face!
I was disappointed when Sony removed other os from the ps3 and now I'm disappointed again with Microsoft but not as much since they pretty much closed the gate.
I always thought it was too good to be true, but if it's still possible to run these games on dev mode, then it just adds a bit of an inconvenience barrier to it, it shouldn't be a problem for people who are already familiar with emulators. But still, de-listing games is one thing, but outright BLOCKING already installed apps should raise more eyebrows.
Personally I don't think it should. Just because the user installed it doesn't mean they're entitled to have access to it. The entire point is that it was acquired through a source (MS store) that had deleted it due to violations of the terms. So ofc it would make sense to extend it to the apps as well, since they would be running term breaking apps from retail mode otherwise. And downloading something isn't owning the product either.
People should've just stuck with dev mode from the beginning instead of doing this over and over with retail mode and then getting into a fit when MS shuts down the retail nonsense completely. People knew better but still tried it anyways. Dev mode users don't need all of this attention due to the shit dudes would pull with the retail mode stuff.
I mean seriously, did they not expect MS to care about the fact that they were putting Xenia onto the MS store? Like, come ON now... People know better than this.
@@umamifan So they’re gonna take down emulators in dev mode. They’re not going to allow you to install Xenia in dev mode..
@@avae5343 I’m not sure, but at the end of the day, emulation on the Xbox was never officially given the green light. It’s always just been “tolerated” by Microsoft. That can easily change though, since people are getting more and more ballsy and trying to use stuff such as Xenia which would now be competing with Microsoft for games that they already have available via backwards compatibility. I know there are certain perks to using Xenia, but at the same time it will also be understandable if Microsoft shuts it down due to creating a direct competitor in the emulation space on their own console…
@@umamifan Retroarch retail was on there for a long time. 8 weeks after Xenia was ported they pulled the plug on everything. Same will happen in dev mode. They’ll update the OS to prevent any emulation apps in dev mode.
@@avae5343 it is possible. What I fear is if someone were to hypothetically put something like a switch emu on there. It would cause Nintendo to tell Microsoft to shut it down asap. People are getting way too cocky with this
I always expected something to happen, but yeah, It's sad.
Not that I used it much, but it sucks losing the ability to do so.
the gaming industry is going ham on emulation rightnow.
The current gaming market suuuuucks at the moment. Atleast give us the chance to experience the older libraries properly. Emulation is preservation.
(I apologize for previously wording this comment terribly, as I read the original poster's comment initially wrong.)
@@ThunderTHR what??
@@ThunderTHR What is PCSX2 then?
And i know you use that, you used it for a video before.
Also, Emulation enhances the experience of playing a game flat-out, compared to what (for example) Nintendo offers with their spit into your face 50€ a year subscription plan (which is dumb because why would you pay that for terrible online + games you were able to buy outright before vs. something like Xbox Live Gold)
@@ThunderTHR why because you want people to pay for games that’s not being sold 😢
Imagine that, emulation becomes insanely popular when the AAA space continues to stagnate.
I'm not even surprised by Nintendo. Hopefully Microsoft can make Dev Mode a little less cumbersome. They're aware not just Devs use it.
You will own nothing, and you will be happy
Have people already forgotten to what Sony did to the PS3 with its advertised 'OtherOS' feature? They removed it permanently after a certain firmware version.
These companies never cared about keeping their legacy titles alive and accessible. All three are guilty of these BS tactics.
Don't even give them an inch of trust. They will eventually betray you by a mile.
Emulation would have been the only reason for me to buy one of the consoles.
You still can through dev mode.
@@ShawFujikawa how? I tried doing that last year and the Microsoft website would direct me to something different than the tutorials I watched. I had to settle for retail mode
@n n - Seriously Dude..... Probably NOTHING FOR YOU to play. The other Millions of gamers, however, would disagree with you on that subject.
@Jago Six Literally nothing on Xbox that interests me other than Forza which I can play on PC. The only reason I bought a Series X was for the emulation.
@@nn-dv3uf Than use Geforce now on PlayStation
Oh wait none of them support it due to is may lead to Exploits
like Exploits that allow xbox to play PC GAMES which is 2X the PS5 Power
May not be an Exploit but is better than paying $100 for dev mode
No dev mode required just their browser
Fascinating, been watching some of your emulation documentaries so the timing here is interesting. Personally I've been quite surprised yet impressed that UWP emulators were being built and were running on Xbox, given the sand-box nature of the platform. Although, with the support and accessibility of UWP, it makes sense as an attractive platform that more or less natively supports all modern Windows devices from Windows 8 onwards.
Console loses out again. Get a PC, buying a console is just renting.
Your concerns with DRM are the exact reason why I prefer physical copies of both hardware and games.
with all due respect, arent physical media games nowadays like simply keys that download and launch an App Image?
Like, MW2 on Disc is simply 2 MB and cant be installed locally without Internet
@@applehazeva2739 Yes and no. It depends on the game and the manufacturer. I don't trust CoD, nor do I follow them so I wouldn't be surprised if they ship half baked nonsense on a disk. Older gen games like Xbox 360 games on Xbox One, you are correct. it's used as a sort of validation key which prompts the download of the assets into an emulator of sorts MVG has a much better explanation, I'm just simplifying it for the sake of brevity. Regardless, games like God Of War Ragnarok or other newer titles have the core game on the disk itself and rely on updates to patch and so forth, but it is far from a simple "key". It's a complex topic and I would need to buckle down and do more research on it, but that is how I understand the basics of it right now. I hope that clears things up a little!
This kind of BS is why I no longer bother with consoles.
Stay offline if it still works.
An offline xbox Series X/S is the dumbest thing ever actually
Not feasible for people who also play normal Xbox games on their console...
I get a different error code
I have a ps5 anyway. Xbox can stay offline i ain't fussed about online.
@@juiceDpunk983 my ps5 is offline. Waiting for an hypervisor exploit that will never exist.
Here's a better system for Microsoft:
-Analyze any game, private or not, before even publishing them to begin with.
-Let people with the delisted apps keep using them.
How dare you try to actually have fun on a console that already has no games!!!!
🤣💀
The obvious result of this is: People will just services offered by the pirates. By doing this Microsoft is just helping pirates, as Gabe Newell once said :
"If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable "
Come on, like 99% of people running emulation weren't already using pirated software?
This isn't Microsofts fault. This is nintendo
?
@@ghostlegit That is why people hack nintendo switch. Because the service offered by pirates is better than Nintendo
@@coliander4180 obviously, it’s basically just pirates crying, but even so it’s not a big loss these are old ass games. Like whilst people talk about legal emulation, 99% of people just pirate it.
That's great. I love it when companies show incredible hostility towards customers. Makes for excellent internet drama. And funniest of all, people still give them money xD
Did you even watch the video? Nintendo got name dropped for blocking it.
Console owners are whipped enough that they will find excuses to like being abused by microsoft, sony or nintendo. There's no saving slaves who are willing.
Yea yea yea pirating old asss games is hostility towards consumers. No one buys an Xbox to emulate games.
@@georgie9303 And that changes my comment how? Nintendo is known for its hostility.
Blame Nintendo
What bothers me most is that the file explorer and ftp apps don't work anymore.
Yes if those still worked I wouldn't have been this upset but now I can't even put custom mods, textures, skins on minecraft which you could do for free on android and pc =/
I was considering getting an Xbox series s as an emulation box but I don't know anymore
That ps3 comment is key. I remember how blazingly fast people got the ps3 hacked after Sony closed down the systems otherOS
I expected to see this, MS is probably worried about applications that try to exploit the consoles OS, I personally haven't seen any but there would have been nothing stopping this if an exploit was found
There's a reason dev mode is so restrictive, unfortunate this is happening but entirely expected by me
Microsoft don’t care about that. They only started to pretend to care when Xenia was ported.
emulation is not only LEGAL but its a generally GOOD THING.
I had a feeling this was coming... it's why I never bothered with retail mode.. :(
its why i never even bothered to buy anymore consoles xD
Yep. Once this happened, I sold my Xbox Series X and bought a Steam Deck for emulation. My PS5 and Switch are more than enough.
You can still emulate in dev mode
At 7:29, even before I started the video I had a feeling Nintendo was the reason emulators no longer work in retail mode for Xbox. Also, while not mentioned, considering how angry Sony has been at Microsoft recently, it wouldn't had surprised me if Sony legally had went after Microsoft because of the Rom / Emulator thing on the Xbox retail mode.
Which is a real douche move by both considering that Nintendo gives off the vibe of "We don't care, we want your money!" when it comes to preserving games from past consoles like NES, SNES, N64 and Gamecube.
Thankfully i have been using DEV mode the whole time. I had some emulators installed on retail mode. But that was just for convenience. Thanks for the info. 👍
This update doesn't just effects emulators, it also effects the minecraft xbox modding community
I mean yeah. If you want Minecraft mods and any kind of freedom you want Java not Bedrock. Bedrock is a joke
@@joeykeilholz925 true, however there are also underrated recourse packs, addons and skin packs for bedrock, which are actually a bit more advance and easier to make then java mods (plus the addon support is BUILT IN!)
It was a security loophole indeed MS would patch sooner or later. As they took long to do it and probably did it pushed by Nintendo demands in exchange for their approval on Activision acquisition by MS it resulted in a big surprise to the community.
I totally saw that coming, however, didn't imagine when.
Surprise surprise that the "you can run emulators" info got out when the Xbox Series were slumping in sales and needed a pick-me-up for the holiday season, but as soon as the price cuts end and quarterly reports wrap up, then Microsoft disables this functionality 😂 MVG and his community took the bait hook line and sinker, were played like a fiddle
I think whats interesting is microsoft has always toed the line of copyright issues like when they made mkv available on media player. I think the issue is here that they knew about the emulation issue, so if nintendo can prove in court that microsoft knew and didnt do anything theyre liable. If they take action like here they can say we did what we could, they have plausible deniability. They didnt completely remove functionality though. Ill give them that.
my Emulators still work on Xbox One i didnt update my console since february
See you later emulator
Not massively surprised retail mode emulation has been blocked tbh. It was a nice bonus, but was always going to be short-lived. At least they're still up and running in dev mode.
Being able to take away existing functionality on a device you paid for is precisely why I haven't bothered with consoles since the Wii.
With Nintendo threatening to sue with also mentioning it will allow hacking to find weaknesses in the system for an open hack. Of course they were going to fold.
Real reason is to monetise that 20 dollar fee *Microsoft rubs hands*
No, real reason is that Microsoft just made an agreement with Big N to bring games to the Switch and need to get through the ABK buyout. This is to keep on the correct side of the regulators and keep new partners happy.
@@Nobbie248Microsoft is worth more than $2070 billion, but yeh, they're wringing their hands over a few one-off $20 fees.
@@PoutingTrevor ok ok relax guys.
Would be pretty funny if true though 🤣
Don`t even care to take down Google emulators
Which Holds all the emulators for DS and PS1 games
Nintendo when others platform run their games better than them 🤯
and think if
Xbox series X able to play PS3 games
old games support for XBOX
Nintendo forces Microsoft to close access to emulators, MrSujano has a video up, has emails from microsoft saying they had to do it because of legal action from Nintendo & that Microsoft are looking for ways to get "legal" emulation back on xbox.
Microsoft and Nintendo have a partnership and that really is the only reason. Microsoft wants their good relations with Nintendo to stand.
Did you watch this video, it was stated in this one, talk about trying to be heard in a echo chamber.
@@crystalwater505 This only means goodbye to COD deals on Nintendrone console because ShitTendo ruined their relation with Microsoft by pulling this BS move.