The NeoGeo 2 we never got - IGS PGM Arcade Hardware | MVG
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- In 1997 - Taiwan based company IGS released the Poly Game Master (PGM) arcade hardware. It closely resembled the NeoGeo MVS but was more powerful. In todays episode we take a deep dive into the world of arcade hardware with the IGS PGM, its games, security and how it could be considered the successor to the SNK NeoGeo.
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#IGS #PGM
Fun Fact: Spectral vs Generation fighting game is based on Japan-only RPG Spectral Force series and Generation of Chaos series made by Idea Factory, the same developers who made Hyperdimension Neptunia series.
i was confused as hell seeing Hiro in a fighting game, cause me and my brother had Blazing Souls Accelate on PSP where she's a hidden character, and i knew she originated in the spectral series.
Stop saying fun fact.
@@longtallshorty5791 lol wtf?
@@longtallshorty5791 fun fact: nobody cares
@@longtallshorty5791 Got a problem with that, douchehorse.
3:55 Just a small point of contention here on aspect ratio: These older machines used CRT's, so the aspect ratio is determined by the dot clock of the motherboard, not the pixel count (or the CRT). So it's not a 2:1 aspect ratio unless you convert the signal into digital square pixels, which never happened back then.
The image aspect ratio would still be 3:4, the pixel aspect ratio is 2:1. Something like the SNES is 8:7. 5:6 is another one.
@@iyatemu There's never been a console or arcade that exactly clocks the pixels into a 3:4 image on the output stage. Some get very close like the N64, but it's still not exactly 3:4. The PAR of the SNES you mentioned is 8:7, but the DAR is not. People forget the SNES sends 240 lines, and there are a handful of games that use 239 of them. So the DAR has to account for all 240 lines, making the SNES DAR actually 128:105. I have a video I dedicated to this dot clock research on my channel.
Nice kit, was really popular in Neo Geo circles in the early - mid 2000s.
Great to see you again MVG. I use to play the Poly Game Master by IGS back in Hawaii. It was an amazing piece of hardware that few knew and even to this day. Glad you're giving the proper exposer towards it bro. Such an underrated unit.
I posted this up on the Neo-Geo thread for others to benefit on the forums over on AtariAge for you bro. Thank you for sharing this with us and keep up the great work you always provide for the community. 8^)
Anthony...
Why would you post the PGM in a Neo Geo thread? It's not a Neo Geo.
A spiritual successor to the MVS with more new brawlers, shooters and fighters? Yes please!
Mad respect for mentioning CAVE. Thanks again for amazing videos.
Thank you for covering this. Absolutely loved this video. ❤❤❤
Cave is by far my favorite shmup developer of all time.
I just wanted to thank you for covering stuff like this. It's basically documenting history for future generations.
Totally right, maybe that type of content will be at highschools in the near future.
Sorry to burst you bubble, but, no this is definitely NOT worthy of being in the school curriculum. I mean, it's not exactly Christopher Columbus or Florence Nightingale territory is it. Video games may be played by a lot of people, including myself, and yes I am old, but millions more wouldn't even know what a video game was. I can guarantee you that for millions of people play computer games 10's of millions don't. I was 45 before I seriously got into computer games. Wasn't interested. In my school we never even had computers. They were way too expensive. But we had books. That is where most learning comes from. And I have yet to see a school book that contains the history of video game consoles.
@bingchilling Man, things are certainly different from my day.We never got taught anything like TV and Film back when I want to school. It was just Science, Mahs, French and History (as in World War 1 and 2.)
I had tohacked this s*** back in the day. I'm that old.. lol
Hell he’s covering history for people in the actual generation these arcade games existed like me! I love these vintage tech channels and MVG is at the too of them along with LGR.
the M2 release of Ketsui on PS4 is one of the best rereleases of all time. Having access to one-off PCBs of the game is a total M2 touch.
I have never heard of IGS before. Looks really cool. I'm going to go check it out now. Thanks MVG for showcasing this system.
13:10 holy crap, that boss sprite appearing on screen looks awesome and impressive for the hardware.
Pulstar and Blazing Star for the Neo Geo are very comparable, though
Thanks for such an in depth look at this much overlooked arcade hardware. I run a large retro arcade here in Australia and as big fans of the Neo Geo and PGM systems, we’re proud to have original versions of Martial Masters, Espagluda, Demon Front, The Gladiator and Knights of Valor 2. I believe it’s important to still have a public venue somewhere to be able to access and play these gaming treasures
Where is the arcade located? I live in Sydney and I might be interested in visiting.
@@richardfan7157 We're in Brisbane. 1UP Arcade is the name
Always love watching your videos to learn more. I try to watch a wife range of things on RUclips, daily. So anything retro gaming, modern gaming, tech, cars, music, comedians, podcast, etc is a must for me most times. So you sir, have provided me with invaluable information over the years.
Even when I don't understand dev talk or coding/programming, I still listen as I know a tiny bit about computers. And I learn along the way. So thank you. Your videos are so interesting and coming from a dev yourself means a perspective many don't have. Super valuable.
CAVE may not say it out right but Dodonpachi II is canonized in a way in DaiOuJou's after-action screens.
Very rare export variant of DaiOuJou simply calls the game Dodonpachi III, and it was not dumped until recently.
Even though I have not frequently played any video game since the 1980s (more than 1 joystick/1 button is too much like schoolwork), these videos are fascinating. They're like alien archaeology. The effort that's been required to plook imaginary adversaries for the last few decades is very impressive. I regard them with bemused observance!
I notice that some of the games on the IGS collection have some input lag, but when you set the language to Chinese, reduces it and setting the screen to less than full further helps. This is noticeable in Martial Masters especially. Setting it back to English after you play it in Chinese, seems to keep the input lag reduced; but you have to do this each time you start the game. Also notice that when you hit the home button while playing; the entire Switch OS, seems to lack until you turn the game off. Any ideas as to what could be causing this from a technical perspective? Hope a patch fixes these issues. Thanks for brining these awesome games into greater awareness. Great stuff!
good to know thank you!
Mate big fan of most of your vids but LOVED this one. some history on the hardware, comparisons and info on the games. very excellent and hope to see more with similar topics!
I love that this turned into a hidden gems video more than anything, thanks for the heads up, some of these I didn't even know existed and I will be checking them out on my MiSTer.
Someone will probably make a core at some point
@@analog_ape Jotego has already announced he will be doing a PGM core
@Retro Game Elements Demon Front
@@brotherbodhi237Isn't he working on the CPS3 core instead? He did a poll and people voted for CPS3 over PGM.
Just wanted to thank you for your videos. I don’t know much about classic gaming or many of the topics you cover but your videos are well-produced and enjoyable, even when I wouldn’t otherwise be that interested in the content in another format. Keep up the good work!
the vibes on your editing are really something unique!
you really care about the music in it and it shows!
another great video!
I'm a big fan of the Dragon Worlds and Photo Y2k games. Especially photo y2k, a genre usually done on touch screen, but that prevents all the 2-player competitive aspects that the PGM games really played up.
That was awesome. I wasn't even aware of this hardware until coming across your video. Thank you!
Taiwan had the right idea, the rest of the world gave up on sprites too soon.
That was a brilliant video MVG, really enjoyed it. Gonna check this out as I'd never even heard of it before now.
These types of videos are great! Keep them coming!
Neo Geo 2 would’ve been cool had it been released, but I think arcades in America weren’t favoring arcades like in Japan, since they mostly care about game consoles since they’re powerful enough and we’re blurring the line between arcade games with console gaming!
From what I heard, arcades were way more popular for way longer in places like Latin america and China + surroundings, because either through tarriffs on foreign products or import laws barring the import of said devices, consoles were VERY slow to make it into the country and when they did they were SUPER-expensive, way too expensive to make it in. But arcade-machines often didn't suffer the same barriers, and since each arcade set their own prices it was WAY cheaper for the youth of these countries to go to an arcade and play than it was in the west. So in those markets, arcade style games lived on way longer.
@@goranisacson2502 arcades do well when they’re cheap to play and the console games are way too expensive to buy on consoles. That’s why I was able to play lots of arcade games as a kid, because Neo Geo was really expensive and the arcade fighting games like Street Fighter II Turbo played better on arcades.
The PGM is a cool platform. It was weird learning of another Neo Geo-like system while emulating arcade games, but that's due to its unusual origin being a system that came out of Taiwan and with the Asian market in mind. As much as Demon Front looks and feels like a Metal Slug clone, I like how they made it distinct with the art direction and certain gameplay features. Demon Front ends up being a slower game that is more defensive in my opinion. The Gladiator is fantastic, though some of the later bosses are really tough and hard to figure out. For that game, I don't mind credit feeding my way through it and I always have fun with it. The control scheme is interesting. I know the game holds quite a few major secrets that I only know about from some foreign RUclips videos. One of them showed a boss in the game that I have never seen elsewhere, though I have no idea how to encounter that one. I did follow along with another video and managed to successfully rescue the character, Fong Yu, that is a captive at some point to find one of the harder-to-find hidden paths which led to others. There's another part where you have to manipulate the enemies to trigger soldiers who throw logs to get them to position explosive barrels next to each other, then having the manipulate an enemy(by evading) who shoots fire to detonate those barrels. There is video of this. I remember ending up at an unusual stage that had palm trees. It's crazy how many paths and secrets are in that game. It's a shame there isn't more documentation about it.
OMG I knew I had played a Metal Slug clone with gnomes somewhere, for years I was starting to think it was all a dream XD
Very good and thorough video, nice job!
Excellent job, I never watch stuff like this but you held my interest!
Oh, I didn't know the IGS collection was actually available in the west! A shame if the conversions are less than stellar though, despite the language switch-trick. Though I would like to know if the Gladiators still support 4 - player multiplayer, whether couch co-op or online only?
It's a shame that the Switch bundle isn't great (it basically had the same sound problems that the emulation of PGM games have on Mame), because honestly, IGS made a lot of great games for the PGM, and they also "saved" Cave with the success of Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm, so they have a lot of points in my book.
Got 2 of these systems, one for horizontal, and one for vertical, got 5 games and play it a lot ... Love Demon Front and the shooters 🥰
How do you connect it to a monitor?
Just plugged it in my arcade machines through the Jamma harness
MVG your content is gold!
Wow - cracking video!
3:18 damn this is hitting different
IGS PGM had those Knights of Valour games, those games were great!
Man neo geo was legendary when I was growing up. It was so rare and had a mystique to it almost haha. It was so so unattainable though back then. This is so cool that you make this content man..nostalgic.
It's 24 fu***ng bits!!!
@@MitchMatrixx hahaha yeah it blew my mind something so much more powerful than the blast processing 16 bit mega drive lol.
I was fortunate enough to be friends with a “spoiled” kid. By spoiled I mean his parents could afford a neo geo with ALMOST every cartridge released on the home system! He was as you’d imagine sadly…. Spoiled enough to be the envy of the neighborhood but ALSO spoiled enough that after too many outbursts of not letting him win, he had chased anyone away that would’ve been friends with him in less time than it takes to lose a round of Samurai Showdown.
@@MrCarpeBurger You make yourself look like a terrible friend.
I remember playing some of those titles in MAME pre-2008. Glad to see a comprehensive video on IGS PGM
I remember playing demon front at the local arcade and loving it, I've been trying to emulate it for years but never could figure what system it was for, thank you for this video, truly.
Miss this kinda content😮
Hey, pretty good show Taiwan! Even though it was made when 2D was well on its way out of the door, you could have told me its games were CPS2/3 or Neo-Geo and I would have been none the wiser.
DDP Daiou Jou, Martial Masters, and The Gladiator look fantastic even for the day, and the first mentioned has effects that almost fool me into thinking there's 3D hardware!
Wow, I never heard of this at all! Very cool learning about! The similarities to the Neo Geo MVS are uncanny!
Well they could,ve used the arm chip inside those cartrides to pump 3D graphics trough those systems /aka super fx chip,just to compeat against other 32bit hardware systems just in case those neogeo hardware became outdated.
The IGS PolyGame Master was nothing more than a knockoff of the Neo-Geo. A couple decent games, but the Neo-Geo clearly didn't need a "sequel" at that time. Even the PlayStation and Saturn struggled to play its games in the mid to late 90's. It was a beast that stayed relevant longer than most consoles, thanks tko SNK's forward thinking of the arcade and home console design. If I had to choose a true and official follow up to the Neo-Geo AES/MVS I would definitely choose the Sammy Atomiswave. It's where you'll find games like Metal Slug 5, and newer versions of KOF and Samurai Shodown, to name a few.
You forgot to mention Ketsui got released on the PS4 courtesy of M2 part of the Shot Triggers line. Not to mention, Dodonpachi Daioujou is getting released on PS4/Switch as part of Shot Triggers but no release date on that yet since the recent presentation focused on Zero Wing and Hellfire and I hope the next M2STG presentation focused on Daioujou and I’ll definitely pre-order it once it’s announced (hopefully before Christmas but that’s just me).
Wow! I had no idea this system existed!
What fantastic bit of kit and one I would loved to have got my pixel-teeth into! 😎
Amazing video, thanks!
The Cave outuput on this board was legendary.Back in the day when i was into shmups I remember being let down when ketsui wasn't converted on ps2 as the other cave games were, despite being the most requested port. I read that there was a problem replicating a sort of reverse scrolling in one of the levels of the game on ps2, and so for their strict arcade perfect policy they decided to not porti it to ps2.
My modded OG Xbox has some of those PGM games, same with my modded 360. Glad they ported those cave games.
The Neo Geo hardware is kind of weird, there are no background layers and everything is made up of sprites even the background setpieces. The 16 colors per sprite limit isn't as bad as it sounds because there are 4096 color indexes divided up into 256 16 color pallets and any sprite can use any pallet. When they said "4096 colors on screen at once" they weren't lying it really can do that. It can also show 1536 sprite pixels per scanline (necessary because there are no tile layers*, only sprites) and uses 16-bit 5-6-5 color with green using the extra bit.
*there is a text layer but that's non scrolling and only for HUD elements.
anyone remember when this thing cost like $400/$500 ???
and that was way back in the day
They sure got their money's worth out of ARM7. I had no idea it was that old. I only last year got a device that was ARM8, so that's quite the lifespan. For that matter, the hardware was serious overkill for the time, even at only 20mhz.
Shame about the switch collection issues. Especially considering that retroarch can emulate this arcade board flawlessly with low input lag.
Wonderful video MVG! This is just what I like to see from you. Love learning about the hardware and emulation!
This really makes me want an arcade cabinet. Lol, this was interesting. I had heard of the PGM, but never really looked into it. It's definitely looking like something I'd like to try. Kinda disappointing the switch port looks like crap.
Learned something new!
Being Taiwanese, I'm sad that I missed out on this. These look like great games.
Well speaking of Cave titles, only Bee Storm and DAIOUJOU TAMASHII got proper overseas arcade release.
I've always wanted Martial Masters along with Rage of the Dragon for a console release. It could happen as Rumble Fish 2 is finally been released this year.
Nice. I play RF2 on my phone with Flycast emulator
Funny thing is I just started getting into this hardware and now I have a funny feeling prices are slowly gonna go up. Although to be fair the very sought after games are already expensive
Huh.. never knew about the ARM portion of the system/games. That could make for an interesting hybrid core on MiSTer both utilizing the FPGA and built-in ARM processor. Hopefully we see it one day!
it sucks that america bailed on the arcade so fast i also hate how they also love making it hard to preserve their wonderful games i hope the anti piracy thing dies once these old companies lose their old ceos
Keep an eye on that barrel battery on your arcade PCB. I've seen those take out a lot of computers by quietly spilling their guts.
i use that board way back then in my arcade
Ahhh MVG, one of the most amazingly brilliant creators in this space.
4:05 the cps boards did something similar, having a slightly wider resolution
on a 4:3 CRT it resulted in more detail
Aspect ratio is determined by the dot clock of the motherboard, which is what allows for more horizontal content within the same framing of the CRT. Also, to date, no console or arcade game is exactly 4:3 even on a CRT, so we should stop using that generic term.
I've heard of the IGS PGM years ago but no one seemed to have much information about it. Granted, I didn't look hard enough because I knew nothing about it. This got my attention. Wow. I'll have to look into this.
This is a really great insight into the system. Thank you very much. I was aware of the system, but certainly not in any great detail.
16:9 is not okay. These games were never ment to be displayed in 16:9 regardless of the resolution they may run at. It's the same for Capcom CPS-games :/
Thanks for the video, MVG! I learned a lot from it! Taiwan really were secret hardware wizards in the 90s, and every new thing I learn is so fascinating.
What an interesting video! Going in I thought it would be about the Neo Geo Hyper 64 and was pleasantly surprised
SNK is done with consoles forever and so is Sega Panasonic Atari if I were able to ask for just one to comeback it’s Sega cause they make the best consoles they also made Nintendo make better consoles Nintendo was only worried about Sega not anyone else any game you want on the Nintendo Switch can play on the Nintendo 64 GameCube Wii Wii U cause they share the same graphics same performance and power the only change was adding the eshop stores in 2006 can play online have digital games going on the internet of course HD cause the older TVs aren’t supported anymore Nintendo had no choice but to change it to HD I can see Nintendo today still using the older TVs if they had a choice if those TVs still were in stores to buy like Best Buy Walmart target but their not
Nobody read any of that wall of text.
@@gordonshumway7465 then why did you reply if you didn’t read all of it lier 😂
@@gordonshumway7465 your read it alright your just upset 😢
@@gordonshumway7465 I read all of it nothing wrong with what it says it’s all facts SNK is dead making consoles why not go buy another mini SNK arcade machine that has only SNK games waste of money
@@gordonshumway7465 hey don’t worry everything will be alright!!!!!!!!!
we need a MiSRTer FPGA core for this platform!
Loved this deep dive. Thank you.
And good to know the system and cardridges are pretty affordable. I might get one for Deamon front, I always wanted to try that title.
Off topic, forgive me, but could you give a quick answer as why no cheats are accessible in the Quake Remaster? I know you had a hand in its porting that's why I ask. I'm speaking about the console versions, primarily the Switch version. Thank you.
Wonder why they chose use MC68K/Z80 combo while having a copy protection CPU being more powerful. Were they planning on borrowing NeoGeo game codes?
I'm not super familiar with the IGS system library, but I did play a little ketsui in mame it's kind of a fun one! I was wondering how the IGS collection turned out but... outlook not so good I guess? :( that's a shame, really.
PLEASE make a follow up video on what the new revision s of the hardware were like and what hy they were made - 2010 is 13 years later which makes me reallywonder why they were made. THANKS!!!
These games look beautiful. How can we get our hands on them for play? Could any of them ever come to Carbon Engine for release on modern consoles? I have my wallet at the ready…
Digital is okay, but I want physical.
So, the 30 bucks Switch version is the poor people's way to actually play these games and, owning the games and the motherboard is the best way, but what about MAME, can it run these games without issues or audio glitching n stuff ?
How does it perform against the CPS2 ?
Because the 68000 is slightly slower on the Capcom hardware ?
Holy crud. I was not expecting that Wavefront to sound the way it did, but it was amazing.
Super 👍
I was worried this video was going to upset the PGM hardware prices but seems like most people are emulating. Lucky :)
Demon Front is a fantastic IGS game that has a lot of similarities to the Metal Slug games
I'm curious, will you talk about the exA-Arcadia platform?
The lack of classic japanese arcade machines in Taiwan today is baffling. Maybe all got hoarded up or sent off of the island but I can't find them anywhere.
IGS Was Also Know For Speed Drive Series
Such a shame the recently released IGS collection on Switch was less than ideal. Hopefully some day soon M2 or some other port specialist gives the games the love they deserve.
This is obscure as hell and I love it!
Hopefully the switch collection gets updated to resolve those audio imperfections, looks fun otherwise.
I hope America gets the IGS PGM re-release collection
IGS security is always sophisticated even after they decided to switch to PC-based hardware, such as IGS E2000/E3000/E3100, S3000 and so on. Notoriously E3100, it has a piece of ASIC on the disk module to decrypt the hard disk, connected to a 125-pin proprietary connector on the motherboard, yet another piece of ASIC on the motherboard to run a part of game logic, and even yet another one on the IO board.
I’m torn. I want to support developers for bringing obscure arcade games to home console. But I don’t want to support games that are essentially unfinished.
i was also thinking about this recently, if i honestly want to "support a developer", i should give them zero money, which forces them to develop a good product that will be successful from the motivation. i aint some developers addiction piggy bank -_-
Uhhhhhhhh... finish the games, THEN port them for maximum time wasted for development
Thanks for the timely vid! IGS collection on switch is viable when played on a 4:3 monitor. Of course, audio issues remain.
RAD!!! I hope that IGS collection comes to other consoles and PC. Hopefully they fix the issues you brought up. It would be so cool to own these games but in the proper state to enjoy them.
A video just in time for that IGS Classic Arcade Collection for the Switch. Edit: Just finished the video. It is a shame that the emulation isn't that good on the Switch collections. I'll be looking for a patch before I pick it up.
IGS Game is very hit in asian arcade ! I love playing the games !
Isn't Atomiswave kinda the successor to Neogeo?
Never heard of that system but the games looks great, Also the fact that a King of Fighters game ended in one of those boards.