I have the "50th anniversary edition" and I really dig that too. In fact they're a bit similar with the strong silhouettes, even if one is a person and one is a worm I also gotta say, "dune" is such a nice title to make logos out of. Shame there's only so many 4 letter titles to go around...
I read this book when I was 17, I'm now 61 and I remember so many of the details like names of people, things and places. The Fremen have stayed fresh in my memory. Paul has remained in my head as a conflicted character in a world very different to that which he knew growing up. I never re-read the book but it has stuck with me for decades. LotR on the other hand, I've re-read a few times and is my most loved work of art. it's like an old friend, Dune is like a very impressive person that I met that left a big impression that I didn't see again.
Pretty spot on, agree, this coming from someone who regularly re-reads silmarilion which is notoriously hard to read (according to everyone else). Its is a work of art, with the most phenomenal world building combined with truly epic tales beautifully written. Dune on the other hand has truly exceptional ideas and concepts but fails short in the quality of prose.
Yesss! It truly adds so much to the re read and I think Frank Herbert planned it that way. Just a chunk into God-Emperor and I almost want to re read the first three all over 😅😂
A large part of the pacing issue, as well as repetitions you mention, stem from the fact that Dune was written for magazine serialization and was only later published as a book.
For sure. It's typical of "classic" Sci-Fi from the age of the pulp serials. They were always a lot bigger on ideas than they were on plot. In fact if you compare Dune to many of the other great sci-fi works, like that of Asimov, Clarcke, etc. You will tend to see that it well deserves its status as the best-selling book in its genre. The fact that Dune holds together so well is actually somewhat remarkable and outstanding compared to its contemporaries.
I first read Dune in serial form in Analog magazine. It appeared in two pieces: "Dune" in three parts, followed about a year later by "The Prophet of Dune" in five parts. The illustrations by John Schoenherr are classic. Needless to say, I was blown away.
I also read by Brian Herbert that Frank also had a lot of Messiah and Children of Dune ideas ready before he even finished the full book of Dune. Fairly interesting to think about. Hadn’t known it was meant for a magazine, to be told over issues. Makes a lot of sense actually.
@@jasminmemorando6694 WOT lifts a lot from Dune, but so did a lot of books. The Aes Sedai are basically the Bene Gesserit and Shaitan is both used for Paul's son, the God Emperor Leto II and the Sandworms, so RJ used the name Shai'tan as a way to honour Herbert, at least in my opinion.
“Good governance never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of those who govern. The machinery of government is always subordinate to the will of those who administer that machinery. The most important element of government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.” -Frank Herbert, Dune Messiah. I think this kinda sums up Frank Herbert's "ideology" and what is Dune about.
@Domagoj Čović I DO NOT want to go into too much detail bc rw politics derailing this channel. But I would suggest the looking at the behavior of current politicans and past politicans in times of crisis and how they create or thrive or try to prevent crisis is relevant. 90% of the people reading this and 50% of people in the general public will get it if they did read it.
Big tangent, but that sounds like the theme of the upcoming movie on Netflix " The Chicago 7". I'm looking forward to it more now with this quote in mind.
I actually love the way Dune is written...I found it so engrossing. I was shocked when I found out most people’s number 1 gripe with Dune is the way it’s written aha
I agree. Some people complain about the head hopping; but it’s nowhere near the level of head hopping as War and Peace and classic novels of that sort. I found it really easy to read.
Same. I found the writing really captivating. I was surprised when I went to goodreads and found a bunch of terrible reviews about the book. One criticism actually said “terrible world building ”. At this point I lost my belief that I was arguing with a logical person, and never opened the review section again
@Domagoj Čović Yes, as I said mirror image. Sorry, maybe we have misunderstanding of the expression - mirror image means something directly opposite to another thing, right?
I’m so glad I’ve found someone who agrees! I’m about 2/3rds of the way through Dune, and I am LOVING it, but at the same time, it’s taking me forever to get through it, because I don’t feel like I’m being propelled along by compelling storytelling. It’s like I’m studying the book, rather than reading it. The reason I’m so excited for the Villeneuve movie is that this might be the chance for all of Herbert’s fantastic ideas to be filtered through the lens of a fantastic storyteller.
Hahaha it's the same for me! I've decided to finally read it, because it is a classic and i'm so intrigued by the world. but yes, it is taking me forever haha
"The reason I’m so excited for the Villeneuve movie is that this might be the chance for all of Herbert’s fantastic ideas to be filtered through the lens of a fantastic storyteller" PFFFFFFFT! LOL!
I love his copy dude but I got the leatherbound collectors edition copy just yesterday cuz I love that one so much but idk what the good copies are 😔 or the most beloved...
Can't disagree more on the story telling. It is exceptional. Loved the way the present is constantly put into perspective with excepts from future historical texts. Also impressed with the seamless perspective switches between multiple characters in the same scene. Added a lot of depth into every moment
I started dune like a week ago thinking it was going to be a slog, but holy crap it's so engaging and interesting. I do not get at all how the storytelling and be faulted here
Good take my man. I feel it could add to the re read as well. If you haven’t gotten to God-Emperor, the historical texts really reflect more the changes in the main antagonist from the past book to that one. Not trying to spoil anything for anyone that hasn’t gotten there! Cheers my dude 👍
The POV switches between characters in the same scene is probably my favorite aspect and something I wish I could see more writers do. I understand it's fucking hard but still, so cool
Frank Herbert undoubtedly one of the best writers to write in third person omniscient pov. I mean, even if you are given to access to everyone's thoughts, you still feel the tension between his characters.
I find a little irony in Daniel commenting on Herbert focusing on things that don't benefit the narrative too much. It reminded me of another author with a strange obsession with dresses... :P
I agree, WoT my favorite book series, but Jordan's need to re describe every character/city/magic system in maddening detail, every book, like its the first book in the series. That drove me mad.
Ironically, one of the things that drove me mad reading WOT is how some things were described exactly once, and then referenced by name alone a bazillion times. Referring specifically to the magic items, one can be used my men, one by women, and one by both, and they all have almost the exact same name. Then when mentioned after the initial description, it is just the name with no contextual clues as to its function. I would get to that point, and I was thinking, "which kind is that?" Just drop one braid tug, or the completely unnecessary "under her breasts" that followed EVERY instance of a woman folding her arms, and give me the contextual clue as to what kind of magical item it is, and can Rand use it, or will it have to be Egwene?
The redundant and repetitiveness of Dune makes the slowest WOT book seem to be a rocketship to Mars. (Not saying I don't like Dune... just saying that even at the slowest points WOT was much more plot driven and action filled)
The story is really more of a vehicle for Herbert to explore and dissect his ideas and I can see why you wouldn't be a fan of that. Regardless, I love how you tackled this review and this video was really in-depth. You're a really underrated channel.
Dune has a good story though, i think that this really starts being a problem with the sequels. In Dune, frank actually told a entertaining story with ideas, themes, philosophy, etc helping to enhance it. In the sequels he cares more about pushing ideas, themes, philosophy, etc, instead of telling a good story, there is a lot of stuff that makes no sense plot wise and characterization wise. I particularly hate the treatment to Alia and lady jessica. Anyway, i still like the first book a lot xD.
I've read Dune 28 times. I find something new every time I read it. I suspect that has to do with my aging perspectives, but it's still worth noting. I consider it to be the finest science fiction novel I've ever read. One thing I really missed in the new movie version is Irulan's introductory moments. Her character is revealed through them and I'm afraid the movie director is writing her off. She's not just a pretty face.
Agreed. Princess Irulan served a great role curating the historical events between this pivotal feud of the great houses. I get the feeling her character may be viewed as having no value in regard to the new movie. Also conspicuously missing is the spacing guild and its navigators. The ability of their navigators to use their spice-enhanced minds for instantaneous interstellar travel was key to the power held by the guild. The guild is barely even factored into the new movie. Although the guild was not one of the great houses they were a major force to be dealt with in Paul's rise to power. The new movie overall is good. I just get the feeling that it is targeted more for the Mavel and DC universe movie crowd. Part of the allure of Dune was always meditating on the philosophies and ideas behind it. Not just the atmosphere and action scenes.
@@SoundsFromBeyond Weird. I loved the movie because I felt it was like the anti-MCU film. It was a blend of arthouse and blockbuster that I haven't seen as well-done since LOTR. But opinions are like...well, you know.
I read Dune about a year ago. Took me a whole month to get through. On finishing it, I didn't know how to feel about it. Wasn't the biggest fan of the pacing and the writing but the ideas, concepts and themes presented are fascinating. Guess I just love Dune for its ideas, especially for the time in which it was written, and not necessarily for the way the story is told.
I really liked the idea of the world and the different characters, however I found it confusing and I feel it was much longer than it needed to be, I just grew impatient with it all and by the end I wasn’t reading it with the same enthusiasm and interest
@@mystrugle900 I too found the books tough to read on first go, but then I re-read them a year later and found the second read so much better because I could understand it more, and I realised I missed a lot of the main hints and clues and ideas that flew right over my head the first time. It's my favourite series of all time now, it's my baby. I suggest you give them another read too. Or you can wait for the new movie to come out in October, hopefully it'll present the story in a less confusing way and help restore the enthusiasm and interest for you!
Exactly how I felt about it. Had to actually tell myself 'right, I'll do 50 pages today, I can do that' to force myself to finish the book. Having finished I can say I loved everything about it (characters, the world, themes etc) except the pacing and the writing style. Taking a break now before I can talk myself into having a go at book 2.
I'd like to point out that Paul Atreides is a not a chosen one. He is NOT a messiah. He was not destined for anything specific. There are no such things as messiahs and prophesied saviors in the Dune universe. Paul and his mother deliberately and knowingly used the Fremen's (not free men...) religious beliefs to make themselves be accepted among them so that they can survive in the desert, and eventually use the Fremen to destroy their own enemies, the Harknonnens and the emperor. Paul and his mother manipulated the Fremen right from the beginning. Just because Paul eventually "went native" and took on elements of the Fremen cause, doesn't actually make him any more of a genuine savior; he played the role that he chose to play, nothing more. This pervasive, and annoying, misinterpretation of Paul as an actual savior is the source of so many complaints about Dune suffering from "white savior syndrome" and also completely misses the point of the book and the whole Dune series. Charismatic leaders are dangerous and even more so when people follow them unquestioningly. THAT is the lesson of Dune. There are no saviors, and those who present themselves as such will only lead you to ruin. People have to think for themselves and take action to keep themselves free, not solely rely on some great "dear leader."
Paul was the perfect human the Bene Geseret were trying to create, but he came one generation early. So you missed the fact that he was a prophesied chosen one. There was a reason his mother wasn't supposed to bear a son for his father.... They wanted to breed a daughter from Jessica and Leto with a Harkonen and that was supposed to be the perfect human. She failed in her mission out of love for Leto. On another note, Paul ended up becoming a monster more than a chosen one hero. (Dune Messiah... Children of Dune).
@@christopherrousseau1173 Paul wasn't prophesied or chosen, he was engineered and bred. No prophesies or messiahs here, just a very a long-term genetic and social engineering project.
And even the religious beliefs and prophesies of the Fremen that Paul and Jessica exploited were seeded by the Bene Gesserit across numerous worlds for that specific purpose.
You didn't mention one of the most important elements that leads to Paul being perceived as the Lisan Al-Gaib by the Fremen and that is the Missionaria Protectiva. The Bene Gesserit planted the prophecy on Arrakis centuries before the Atreides got there. Jessica reflects on this numerous times.
Exactly! The David Lynch film completely missed this point, making it seem like Paul was actually the promised savior. Hopefully the new movie will correct this, we’ll see. The Fremen were manipulated first by the Bene Gesserit, then later by Paul and his mother.
@@michaelvcelentano No, not alone. I've read all 6 books. While I agree that Messiah and Children go down in quality the last 3, God Emperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse are strong and worthy of being read.
It's funny, coz on top of loving everything you praise, I actually highly enjoy his writing style! The fact that he tells us ahead of time the plot, as it is not what is relevant, but rather wants us to enjoy the journey rather than only the destination is what sets him appart and higher than any other author for me!
At first I found the fact that he kind of spoils his own plot to be quite novel, and as you say, it definitely works because HOW events play out is where the intrigue is, while the characters are already smart or magically gifted enough to see where events are headed anyways. It's not a "who dunnit" narrative. But recently I realised it's even better than that, it ties in thematically with one of the biggest recurring conflicts in the books (I'm halfway through Children of Dune): the feeling of being trapped by prescient foresight, having to play out the grand events of Time that you've already become aware of before they happen, but struggling to establish your will and your human identity amidst those unstoppable tides despite everything.
@@LoudWaffle I think irulan explaining at the beggining of every chapter some vague story about what Paul is to become the most engaging part of the book. I had to see of this character would fall down the path of turning people flesh and bones into drums of war.
I love Dune, but it comes with an adjustment period. For me, the biggest adjustment is to do with the POV. It takes a while to get used to the head-hopping, as it's quite disorientating. But once you get adjusted to it, it makes for an interesting read! I love knowing everyone's thoughts. As the series progresses and gets more political, it's fascinating to know what everyone's plotting. Dune is told in a different way to most other books - it's why I love it, but I can see why some people would find it difficult.
I didn't have this issue, but I also listened to the audiobook instead of reading, so the different voices made it very clear where I was in the story and who was in what scene. It was quite good.
Fair, but I didn't have problem with the head hopping, since I'm empathic (psychological disposition, not magical powers). I think a lot of people struggle with "head hopping", because modern writing is so ... shallow... and because most writers aren't good enough to pull it off. I take strong issue with DG's assessment that "Frank Herbert isn't a good storyteller." I've read Dune 7 times. To say it's not "good storytelling" is absolutely presumptuous, at least as far as Dune and its successor, Dune Messiah. Children of Dune and the books after that... DG may have a point, though Herbert's drug habit had wrecked his brain by then, and it's honestly hard to follow the latter books... but Dune is a crisp, multilayered plot, with deep, fully fleshed out characters all around, with an incredibly satisfying story arc, with world building and characters that I'd put up against ANY fantasy genre. IMO
“When I am gone, they must call me Shaitan, the Emperor of Gehenna. The wheel must turn and turn and turn along the Golden Path.” -Leto II, God Emperor of Dune
Dune will be a solid 10/10 for me. Read it several times and will read it again before watching the next movie adaptation. That being said, I dont disagree with your criticism at all. All fair points. For me its just very subjectively a book I like in every aspect. While yes, the pacing can be slow and I would have loved to see more pages on characters I like, I came to appreciate Frank Herbert's writing for what he wanted to tell and how he did it. This is of course being influenced by the two direct sequels on many of the themes and the 3 other books that expanded a lot on the universe and the problems of it, but Dune itself is just like Lord of the Rings for me. I can kick back, read, discover something I did not pick up on previous reads and smile on enjoying a timeless piece of storytelling.
Dune is one of those books that could have been a lot more streamlined, but it's also kind of a miracle it ever got published in the first place. Herbert was not a well known author when he wrote it, he'd had some short stories published that were well received but not overly popular. Dune was sort of a culmination of a lot of stories he'd written over the span of years combined into a single narrative, not a planned one. When he submitted it to publishers, they almost universally found it too weird for general audiences and didn't think it would sell... which is understandable, since the idea of a 'space opera' pretty much starts with Dune. The only publishers willing to take a chance was a company that almost exclusively published technical manual and was only just trying to branch out into fiction... so unfortunately didn't have real top tier editors. So that explains the clunkiness of a lot of it. the fact that it's never been out of print in spite of all that is kind of amazing
Bene Gesserit -> Aes Sedai Fremen -> Aiels In later books Honored matriarchs -> Senchans Having been very marked by my reading of Dune (so long ago) the parallels in Wot were obvious. In the real world too actually I think our planet running out of spice soon will lead to something akin to the peace of Leto I won't say any more
@@kngishere395 Seeing that they both based their stories on the archetype of "the messiah" these parallelisms should be expected. Their themes seem to be different though. I need to finish reading The Wheel of Time to get a better grasp of Jordan's theme.
@@jchinckley Don't forget that there is a male and female half of the Dune race consciousness that the other half can't access, references to a world where all physical limits are removed, knowledge passed down from past lives, and a whole host of minor references. I guess you could say swordfighting as a plot point but that's a little too generic. Fremen having their own Reverend Mothers outside of traditional training, honestly just the Aiel are so much Fremen it's hard not to compare. As much as the Trollocs are Beastmen/Orcs and the shadowfiends (can't spell) are ringwraiths. Maybe I was just looking to find comparisons...
@@gajbooks I'm sure RJ took inspiration from Dune, but Jordan was a historian and based his creations on more than just one source. To my mind, he used Celtic (the red hair), Asian (the tribe structure?), and the fearlessness of more than just Fremen/Sardaukar/Spartans to come up with the Aiel. Yes, you should _all_ know by now that if you look hard enough at *_any_* piece of literature you will find the authors/books/stories that influenced the author of the piece under consideration. It is a common thing and talked about by a number of contemporary authors.
I finished it today and I thought it was really well written. Herbert managed to convey a lot of themes like spirituality, religion, drug use, politics, colonialism, so the writing had to be simple and not too complicated so that the readers appreciate the world of Dune, which I did. So to me it's a total success ! And that book is almost 60 years old !
Dune isn't for everyone. It's got this status as a classic, and that means that modern audiences feel almost obliged to like it if they want to retain their nerd cred. As someone who absolutely adores Dune, I have a hard time recommending it, because it is a flawed book. It's dry and clunky and about as subtle as a brick to the head in places. For someone who grew up reading Golden Age sci-fi, that's not really an issue. But for modern readers, it can be a shock, and there's this sense of obligation to like this thing that has long been held as a pillar of the genre. Dune and its immediate sequels, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, are easily in my top five sci-fi properties, right up there with The Stars My Destination, Ender's Game, The Forever War, and The Demolished Man. I love classic science fiction, but as someone who also enjoys contemporary stories, I can appreciate how the genres has evolved and improved in many ways. If it's lost some of the depth and richness, generally speaking, it's a lot more streamlined and digestible. That's not a knock against modern works; tastes change and standards for storytelling have risen. It always pains me to see someone trying to force themselves to like Dune, or anything else for that matter, because they think they have to. It's okay to admit that it has flaws, or even to say that you don't enjoy something, even if it is considered a classic.
I really appreciate what you're saying. Not necessarily in relation to this (I vaguely knew of the Dune series before the trailer and now my curiosity has been piqued) but in relation to other fandoms too. Harry Potter for example. When I was younger I wasn't allowed to read it, but now that I am I have no desire to. Partly because fantasy just isn't my favorite genre (LOTR has a special place of course) but also because I hated how people I encountered from that fanbase made me feel. "*Gasp* you've never read the HP books!? What's wrong with you?" "Well if you don't like HP then I don't know if we can be friends" "How dare you think that *other book series* is better than HP! HP is perfect!" It's stuff like this that just really upsets me, why should I have to like something just because it's so huge and popular? Nothing is perfect, and shaming people for their opinion, for not like something despite it's legendary...ness, even for something like Dune, just doesn't sit well with me. I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to get across, other than that your comment just really resonated with me. Sorry for the super long rant.
ive only read the first book but i thought after the first 3-4 chapters each chapter is great and very enticing. the shorts ones were quick in showing something of importance and longer ones did a great job at revealing great swaths of story and character
Honestly, in a way I feel the same about LotR. This might sound strange given that it's the most famous fantasy novel ever but I've had so many friends (albeit mostly not very avid readers) either DNF it or say that they didn't enjoy how long winded it was. I think the problem is compounded by the fact that (a) everyone nowadays has seen the movies going into it and it gives a somewhat wrong impression of what the book is going to be like and (b) because it's so famous, it's a lot of people's first step into fantasy and as far as fantasy goes, it's not the easiest read
i always tell people that it's hard to get into, but if you can, you won't be able to put it down. despite the obvious execution flaws, the core story is just unlike anything else in science fiction and will really challenge your world view. The ending is frankly haunting on multiple levels.
One interesting thing about the book is that even though it had been published as serials in Analog magazine, no publisher wanted to release it as a novel. Only Chilton gave it a chance. Yes, the publisher of car/truck repair manuals was the first to publish Dune as a novel.
I finished this book last week. I cannot believe I finished it in just 6 days! I loved it from beginning to end and considering it’s length and how difficult of a story it is, I found it to be one of, if not my most enjoyed read of the year.
Just caught this review, I hadn't realized you did an updated review. Gotta tell you I appreciate this 6.5 more than most of the 8/9s out there. Don't get me wrong, I love this book, I've re-read it 3 or four times, but it only stands as a series, you're right, it does fine as a single story, but it really gets into its theme when it gets into the cost of the Golden path. I love you're appreciation of the validity of the themes of Herbert and the personalization of the review. You're right, when I want to get into a plot that takes me away, ⊃∪∩⪽ is not what I'm gonna read. Thanks man, love your channel.
I’ve been reading all six Herbert Dune books every few years. Not only do I get something new from each book during every read through, but you also how Herbert’s themes carry through the whole story. Ultimately Herbert has hope for humanity but he does not downplay the struggles that will indeed be with our species for a very long time.
This book is definitely in my top 10 of all time, has been ever since I first read it in 2003. I've also read it 4 times, and what you experienced upon the second read - it makes sense. Herbert is definitely not a "great story teller," but the story he is trying to tell us is so much more than just the progress of Paul and the other characters. Every time I read this book, I learn something more about myself. And THAT is why it is in my top10. The subsequent books in Frank Herbert's Dune hexalogy dig even deeper into those questions of ideas and nature of humanity. Well worth the read if you are an "idea" reader like me. Another thing I agree with you on is the world he creates. It is very very addictive, as any DuneFan will tell you. I for one will read pretty much everything Herbert's son writes because it takes place in his world (even though the literary value of the surrounding books is very much questionable at times). And let's not forget that this is one of the most quotable series of books I've ever come across.
I'm reading the Mistborn trilogy right now and I'm also seeing a lot of Dune influence in it - from the coveted substances that enhance abilities, to the exploration of how humans that become deified
I just picked it up (Reading it for the first time. At 100 pages). The first few chapters are intriguing, but at the same time seem like a barrier you have to push trough to get to the good parts of the book. After that however things seemed to just click and I’m finding the characters a bit more interesting.
Just gotten into Dune, fell in love with it. I want to say, my first jump into it, I did feel that kinda confusion or lost feeling of trying to keep up or understand Frank. The only advice I can give, is truly slow down on parts. Try to see the vision as Frank did. Re read a page or two if you feel that. Once I started taking my time, it all came together nicely. Could of just been us my man hahaha cheers, appreciate your insight and retrospective thoughts on this series. 👌 Edit: I want to say, Franks dialogue and use of characters really gets better in Children of Dune and more so God-Emperor of Dune. More moving parts, more conversations that feel fluent and natural. I think Franks writing style changing through the series is very interesting.
Herbert described Dune as having a coital rhythm, starting slow then reaching a climax. He does it both micro and macro wise, and the entire time he planned for the first to books to set up God-Emperor of Dune, since he had the entire history and story of the first three books planned before he ever wrote a single word. For many if not most hard-core Dune fans, God-Emperor is definitely the best book in the series.
I enjoy your reviews immensely. Especially the way you phrase your recommendations of "if you enjoy x, y , and z in a story, you'll probably enjoy this book" sure there are more critics who do that section in a review, but it can often have a certain judgy feeling to it. I've never felt that with your reviews. Weirdly enough that's exactly what makes me want to read certain books even though they are probably not for me. Dune is not going to be for me, but I've never wanted to read it more than right now. XD
That edition is a beauty! I picked up Dune years ago and just couldn't really get into it, however, I think I'll give it another go before the movie comes out. Great review, it's nice to hear some well thought out criticisms from someone who's reread it years later
That's on my TBR; got a copy sat on my bookshelf. But I'm a tad unsure about starting it; I've heard a LOT of people say that the sequels don't measure up to the quality of the first book and that the first one ends on a cliffhanger. Not sure how i feel about starting a story where so many people dislike it after the first part
@@robertwinslade3104 I've read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion and I'd say that while Fall isn't as good as the first book, it's still very much worth your time. It's the sequel duology (Endymion and Rise of Endymion) that has a lackluster reputation, but I can't speak to those as I haven't read them.
Not sure "cerebral" is the right word. But it's a fantastic book. I haven't read it in over a decade and I still have very fond, and emotional, memories about the Scholar's story. Really good stuff! Haven't read the rest of the series, but I hear they don't compare to Hyperion.
Dune was crazy influential in video games too. Dune II was the first RTS game (as we'd define an RTS), which eventually branched off into franchises like Warcraft, Starcraft, and Command & Conquer. Warcraft ultimately lead to Dota, which lead to League of Legends and Dota 2 helping to blow-up esports in the early 2010's.
I don't read much sci-fi to be honest, but your review made me curious enough, and the Trailer, to put it on my list of books to read this year or 2021. Thank you for all your research and opinions, Daniel, it was because of you, that I pick up The Wheel of Time, after so many years, to read it once more.
is WoT really worth reading since the author died? I think i tapped out after book 9 or 10 when i found out RJ died. He just seemed so obsessed with his own world and characters he couldn't bare wrapping up the story and just kept making new plotlines. It was masterfully written but I just found the overall planning frustrating.
That was one of my biggest take aways when I read it for the first time a few months ago. I was so thrown off by the omniscient narrator but it was also what made me want to stick around.
True, I red it just after reading A game of thrones, where you have the point of view of only one character per chapter, so even if there are several point of view characters in a scene, you know for sure whos perspective you're seeing. After that I red Dune, where Herbert writes in third person mostly, but than keeps jumping from perspective to perspective even in the same scene. Man could it get jarring.
As a huge fan of Dune, thank you for your honest assessment of its flaws. It's really easy for people to gloss over the bad of something for being so enamored with the good.
Daniel, maybe one day you'll also think something along "it's cute and amusing how people talk about Dune series and characters, and the story without reading all the way through to the Chapterhouse." Man, I promise you'll remember Paul Atreides almost as if he was a side-character when you'll make it to the last book. I mean, thousands of years pass... The plot and some of the underlying ideas become clear and obvious after you've read the very last (the sixth) book. I genuinely enjoyed how the books kept me thinking and engaged. The writing is multilayered, deep and prodigious. About the ideas... I think Frank Herbert touched every major issue and theme with these books. If you're (as any sane person) perfectly capable of pretending that Brian's books never happened - you'll certainly enjoy Frank Herbert's idea about the Butlerian Jihad against people who were dependant on thinking machines and applied machine thinking principles to other people. I think it makes a lot of sense in our days, much more sense than when the books were first published. And frankly speaking, I often think about Bene Gesserit... Their way of thinking inspired me so much that I guess I secretly identify myself as a Bene Gesserit trained.
The more of Dune I read, the more I loved it. By the time I finished Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, it had cemented itself as the most original and unique thing I have ever read. Great series.
So... I LIKE Dune. But it was very hard to chew through the first time through. Some authors are able to write in a fluid way. Like floating down a river you are gently, or forcefully drown through the story, each bump and dunking along the way serving as a part of a journey that moves to a specific end. Others, like FH, have a style that to me feels like mountain climbing, each handhold and anchor is a struggle and a battle. There are fascinating and beautiful moments and thrilling developments but it is a daunting task and can leave those inexperienced in that story falling away from it. But surmounting the summit of that story feels satisfying and grand, looking back at where you have been and what you read and the literlly hard won lesson for both character and reader, makes it a kind of athletic pleasure. All my opinion of course.
You're so right about the writing, I keep hoping I will get into the narrative flow but there is no flow so it's hard to build momentum. I am interested in the ideas and the characters however, so on I go.
I actually read Dune about a month and a half ago and I loved it! To see the trailer come out shortly after I finished it was amazing! I had completely forgotten that a new movie was coming.
I agree and would like to see his thoughts after trying at least one more. The third book I feel changes the world's, as far as ones Frank wrote, the most and Frank gets to the heart of some of his ideas. The books where Brian took over writing from Frank's notes I feel are good but lose and add things Frank wasn't meaning to.
Jonathan O'Neal I think that was part of the point Herbert was trying to do for children Dune was in decline there was only arrakis In a way I believe showing the difference on how Paul failed and was willing to take a certain path he was a charming leader and brought with him a change While children of dune and Leto are a different tale dune is in decline and arrakis remained Leto was something else he’s far worse compared to Paul If this makes any sense
you nailed my thoughts on this book EXACTLY. I wasn't able to understand why I couldn't really get into the book, given this should have been right up my alley. You earned yourself a sub!
Curious about whether you'll try the sequels? I haven't read them myself (yet) but I've heard some people say that the story is incomplete without reading at least Messiah and Children of Dune and that they elevate the quality of the first book
I feel like you don’t really know what the series is fully about until you’re well into Children of Dune. I enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse a lot. Herbert had definitely ironed out some of the plot and pacing issues mentioned on this video. I could be wrong but I seem to recall hearing/reading that he only started writing God Emperor once he was well into Heretics as it became evident he needed to fill in some gaps. God Emperor is HEAVY and to me stands out from the others in a very distinct way. Where the other books are sci-fi with tons of philosophy laced in God Emperor in many ways philosophy veiled in sci-fi. I certainly appreciated Herbert’s vision far more after completing the original series and am really bummed he didn’t get a chance to write the 7th.
@@e.j.maynard4363 I agree loved the trilogy was a bit meh over God Emp the loved Heretics and Chapter House ... I should read Sandworms but am scared to ... I’ve just got hold of the deluxe so doing a reread and going back to it for the first time in almost 20 years ... I’ll do the original six and try Sandworms ... the jury is out on the prequels ... my wife ikes them so....
@@johnmedany9294 yeah I’ve been toying with the idea of getting into the sequels/prequels. Now that the movie isn’t coming out until next Oct I’ll probably dive right in
My only criticism of your review of dune, is that the faults you have with Herbert's writing style you seem to be okay with in tolkien's. I don't know about you but I had a much easier time reading herbert than I ever did tolken
100% agree. And that's not to say that Dune is perfect. Far from it. But neither is Tolkien. And you can tell that Tolkien's skills were in creating languages and world-building, not writing fiction. I think Dune is far more readable than Tolkien's LOTR, despite its flaws. But like Tolkien, Herbert's imitators wrote better books. I still credit the two respective writers for what they did to the genres of fantasy and sci-fi.
like he says, every review is subjective. sometimes you feel differently about the same thing in different contexts, even if you can't put your finger on how or why. i feel he did a good enough job explaining where his personal biases/preferences were affecting the review and pointing out the strengths and flaws of the book.
Before anything is said, I must disclose that I'm a long-time reader of Tolkien, while I'm just midway in my first round through Dune. That situation out of the way, I find both books moving in opposite directions so much as to be uncomparable. Paul is a chosen one who is also an apprentice Gesserit and an innate Mentat. Saying he is the individual with most potential in the galaxy is an understatement. Frodo is a slightly above average hobbit at best, and a sack of potatoes at worst. Herbert relies too much on portraying the thoughts of characters every other paragraph. Even feeling jaring how the PoV jumps from character to character even in a single page. Tolkien has very few thuoghts on the page, rather relying on descriptions and dialogue to convey those thoughts. This creates a very stark stylistic distinction, where Herbert has a character think something, another character asking that same something, and the first character replying about that something just to have another thought bubble follow the brief dialogue. I feel this redundancy is where the repetitive feeling comes from. Both are slow burning books. And their world building is of comparable quality. Tolkien focuses on portraying a world where the glory and beauty has faded into ruins, while Herbert focuses more in the societies and characters. One thing I appreciate in Herbert is his use of the smell. It's an underappreciated sense in literature, yet it can set the tone of scenes rather nicely.
Daniel, I feel like you missed on a crucial detail. The betreyal was on paper impossible. These doctors have some sort of conditioning that they physically CANNOT hurt people (or betray for that reason). Essentially this was as likely to them as ghandi launching nukes on USA would be for us. Harkonnens managed to somehow overwrite this conditioning and if I remember correctly they never said how they did it. To reader it may seem obvious that he would be suscpicious but in this world he’s literally the Last person anyone would ever suspect.
As someone who recently graduated college and has begun to read for fun once again, Dune was constantly hitting the G-spot of this philosophy/history/psych student's taste. Perfect read? Not at all. Beautiful exploration of the human condition through story? Absolutely. The Dune books read more like a treatise than a novel (and I loved it!).
Thanks for the honest review. IMO the sequels are what makes this first book shine the most. I appreciated first book when I read the whole series. So I don't know If you are planning to pick up the Dune saga but you should at least read Dune Messiah. It is not really a new installment to the series but rather a epilogue for the first book (it is a tiny book too).
This review helped me so much! I came on RUclips looking for reviews because I'm reading it for the first time and struggling. I'll keep going, but with different expectations of it. Thank you, I appreciate it!
I would say that this is currently my favorite book. The sandworms, Arrakis, Melange, and the different houses are all great factors in this amazing story. I mean, come on man! 6.5? I would rate dune a 10/10.
Is this because of the complexity of the ideas that Herbert discusses? I think I got a lot more from this book at 35 than I could have at 25 or 15. Once you've lived a bit in the real world and learned more about human nature, it hits pretty hard.
After 100%. Movies of books often can be decent movies of their own right but are disappointing to readers of the book. I doubt enjoyment of the movie would go up from reading the book, but it very likely could go down.
Reading a book after watching the movie is always better I have found. It fills in all the gaps and gives you a better understanding of what's going on. If you read before, your mind can wander ahead to what is coming, but also you get taken out of the movie if they cut or change a scene from the book which you are expecting.
reading a book and then seeing it realized in a movie is much more rewarding because you can compare it to how you visualized everything. I haven't read this book yet but I want to because it seems like a majority of people really like it and I want to watch the movie after reading it myself
I just finished Dune last night for the first time and felt quite the opposite of this review. I really, really enjoyed Frank Hebert's writing style specifically how the characters would tell you their thoughts. That is exactly how it is nowadays with the texting. People speak and then text you their thoughts. It made me feel like I was right there in the story, feeling with the characters. Gosh, I could not put it down. It was amazing considering he wrote this in the 60's. I will put up my own Dune book review this week so check it out if you are interested in another take on this classic book.
I remember reading the trilogy when I was 11 years old, I thought the story was well told in its own unique way, completely different from all other books at my local library. But I imagine the ease of reading bwas improved by the translator. To this day I still sometimes think about the influence of these themes in sci-fi. Pretty nifty if I might say so.
Given your love of WoT I am surprised you have an issue with the pacing in Dune. But then, as you say, it's all subjective. Whilst I am no huge fan of the way Herbert wrote (can only imagine what someone like Kay or Rothfuss would do with this story) I can overlook it for the world building and plot. Amazing how many later stories were so heavily influenced by Dune though.
I am surprised Daniel is just now realizing that Frank Herbert's Fremen and Robert Jordan's Aiel are very similiar. Not to mention both authors being redundant descriptions that don't push the story forward.
For me. ... prose. the reason why many people love Dune. It's prose. The words Frank Herbert used. The way he told the story. His words are evocative and imaginative. It paints a picture in your mind. And maybe that's why it's too slow for you. But many love it for the way words were used. For me, its almost poetic. you won't see this style in today's writing. Too many of today's authors want to get there too fast. Herbert allows you to savor the journey. To each his own I guess. one only has to compare the prose of Frank to that of the prose of Brian and KJA....
I read Dune and loved it, but was confused why when I recommended it to friends, they REALLY couldnt get into it. This review explains that side quite well.
Which I think is where watching the movie first makes sense. To give them a sort of "big picture" view so when they hit slower parts they don't become discouraged.
I like the new editing decisions you’re making, especially with the rating visuals, but I’d suggest you keep the pros and cons on screen long enough to read them while the video plays and that you use a different font for your /10 that matches the clean, modern style of text you use for +/- better.
Frank Herbert was not a 'pure' storyteller, in so far as all he sought to do was tell the most engaging and compelling story he could just for its own sake. For Herbert, novel writing was a means to an end, that end being the discussion of a spectrum of themes in a speculative fiction environment. Dune is at one level a sprawling sci fi epic, but for Herbert that is secondary. Primarily, he wrote the Dune Saga to explore themes of how power, religion, economics and ecology interact to shape cultures and civilisations. One can readily read the Spice as an analogue for oil and Arrakis as a fictionalised and exaggerated version of the Middle East. He was also writing a cautionary tale about the perils of charismatic leadership in various different incarnations, and that informed many of his characters. Just in the first book, we see several examples of how different styles of charismatic leadership can fail or have negative outcomes. As an example, Duke Leto the First is the type of a charismatic leader who is so personable, and through his personal magnetism and the value he places on those who follow him, inculcates such immense loyalty in his followers that they lose the capacity to view his actual ability to deal with his political and strategic circumstances objectively. Leto is easy to like and easy to be loyal to, but that doesn't mean he has the skills to navigate a political maze effectively or make the harder, more uncomfortable decisions a leader might be called upon to make. Leto says that the first step in avoiding a trap is seeing the trap. He sees that Arrakis is a trap... and walks right into it anyway, overestimating his ability to handle the threat of the snares put in place by Baron Harkonnen and Emperor Shaddam IV. Leto's charisma inspires blind loyalty in his followers, and he goes on to lead them to near total disaster. if it wasn't for the actions of Doctor Wellington Yueh trying to mitigate the harm he caused by selling the Atredies out to the Baron, Leto's entire bloodline and whole Noble House could very easily have ended at a stroke, principally due to his failure to handle the threat properly. Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is a different type of harmful charismatic leader. In the books he actually finds the business of violence rather distasteful and doesn't want to see it most of the time, and yet despite this many people mistake him for a straightforward sadist, but his true threat as a leader is not violence but corruption. He is the sort of leader who whispers in the ears of those around them that it is OK to give in to their self destructive impulses, that they deserve to indulge their dark side. He controls the head of his own guards through enabling the man's addiction to a type of sonically activated narcotic called Samuta, and he encourages Emperor Shaddam's paranoia about Duke Leto's popularity being a threat to the Imperial Throne, and enables the Emperor's betrayal of the Duke by having the Imperial Sardukar elite disguised as Harkonnen troops so that the Emperor can maintain deniability of his involvement. Later on in the series, the now dead Baron's memory shade in Alia's mind deploys a similar tactic, manipulating Alia by stoking her paranoia and encouraging her to give in to the darker aspects of her personality. Paul himself is another example of a dangerous type of charismatic leader, this time the religious, messianic figure. Paul finds that, despite his exceptional abilities, he can't control the consequences of his decision to assume the mantle of the prophesised messiah figure in Fremen religious beliefs, that prophecy being seeded into Fremen culture by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva. Paul is confronted with the truth that religious movements have a momentum of their own, and even the object of veneration within such a movement cannot necessarily control the direction of travel of the belief system. As a figure whose authority is derived from religious belief, Paul can unintentionally inspire blind allegiance and even outright fanaticism, manifesting in obvious negative outcomes like the Fremen Jihad, but also subtler harm, such as when Paul realises that the religious cult of personality that has grown up around him has slowly influenced the character even of a man as steadfast as Stilgar, and Paul feels that this process has denigrated Stilgar, turning him from a proud Fremen leader of a Sietch into just another true believer lacking independent agency. All these charismatic leaders damage those around them or lead them to disaster in different ways, but the message Herbert wants to convey is the same in all cases - that charismatic leadership is dangerous because a person with charisma will likely to find it easier to accrue some form of power or other, but that charisma on its own in no way qualifies that person to wield that power to achieve the best outcome for society.
I was fortunate enough to have been able to grow up on Dune as a child. I haven't read it in a long time and am currently rereading it now and wow, it's so good. Being older, I can appreciate so many more things. While yes, there is criticisms on pacing and whatnot, I still find it an enjoyable read. The world is so rich and the message is so interesting that I can't help get engrossed in it.
Nice video, but I disagree. Dune is one of the most important novels ever written, regardless of genre. It examines the development of humanity over thousands of years. It looks at prophecy as a limiting act, not a liberating one. Dune forces us to look deeply into such topics as politics, religion and economics. Frank Herbert's audacity of vision stretches across millenia as he tries to imagine what humans may become and the forces that shaped that journey. Yes, he is, at times a bit ponderous when it comes to description. I'm amazed at how much narative space he spends on Paul and Jessica's walk through the rocks just before their capture by the Fremen. Herbert is not that interested in action scenes. He tends to gloss over battles and fights. That might annoy some readers. But this is a book about something. It is not just an action/adventure tale. It is not a space opera. Dune is an epic drama set on the scale of thousands of years. It examines the rise and fall of empires, religions and planets. Dune is, simply put, the greatest novel ever written.
Man you've made me so happy. There's nothing i love better than hearing honest opinions on Dune. Because there's always a feeling of being overwhelmed by the book in them. I first read dune when I was twelve and its pretty much scarred my personality, I can't seem to resist seeking out being overwhelmed, like I was with dune. I love it, its like reading the ocean. And the contrast with the dry setting is just powerful. Thanks for the great review.
Have you read Hyperion? It's one of the few sci-fi series that tops dune in my opinion. Incredible world building, emotionally moving and just epic in scope.
I'm so glad you read it again and reviewed it. I loved this book. I actually loved the way he moves with the story. I love the internal dialogue and the meditative explorations. There is also a lot of spirituality there. What a man Herbert was. The edition you have is gorgeous
I love more in-depth reviews, I also love to hear reviews that are conflicted, were its got strengths and weaknesses and your mileage will vary. when a review is just all love or hate I find that there could be good/bad qualities that are being missed, so bravo, great video I would like more like it!
I have trouble reading fiction, its hard for me (well, all expect the Harry Potter books, the exception to every rule?) So I've been listening to the audio book of Dune (mostly in preperation of the movie and the roleplaying game (modiphius games) I've come to the conclusion that Herbert's values and chosen perspectives may indicate he was a psychopath (my opinion) I grew up around psychopaths so its not hard to spot, Added note: psychopaths tend to think everyone else are stupid/naive, I'm not attacking the book, just the way its written, its not my cup o tea but if you like it have fun,
As a huge Dune fan, strong agree with the majority of it. It's why continuing in the series can really pay off. Herbert improves his story telling a lot. Children of Dune is leagues ahead in that regard, with God Emporer really showing off his improvements.
Thank you Daniel for giving Dune a second chance! This is why I respect you as a reviewer, you are willing to listen to people instead of just being stubborn. Love the channel
Just finished Dune and it was definitely dense but very worth it. Also I feel like i need to read the rest of the series, as I want more of this world. Will definitely reread in the future.
One thing I struggled to pick up on in my first couple readthroughs is that herbert is showing you the plot during book 1 through characters thoughts because he's easing you into the perspective of seeing the future.
Hey Dan, Solid review. I’ll pick it up to prepare for the movie. Would love to see you review some of Octavia Butler’s work. A trend setter in Sci fi and fantasy. Thoughts!?
Dune is personally my favorite book of all time, but I still totally agree with your criticism of it. In my opinion the pacing and over explanation is really how Herbert tackled such big ideas with an unprecedented depth, so the weakness can be a strength if you're able to sit through it.
OMG i need that cover. Is so awesome! Also i'm reading Dune at the moment and i'm loving it. Don't really agree with you that is hard to read? i think is actually pretty engaging and i have to force myself to put it down at times because i get so hook up on the story and i want to know how it progresses. I'm really liking Paul's arc and the worldbuilding. I do agree with a couple of criticism though. He is redundant sometimes, and the text could drag on for a couple of pages repeting the same thing in different ways just to make a point that is clear after a just a couple of parragraphs. And i find the villains a bit over the top and cliché most of the time. I didn't have problems regarding the betrayal plotline though. It makes sense within that world for characters to think and react to it the way they do. However, I do think Jessica in particular gets dumbed down quite a bit after Paul and her scape to the desert and they are alone. Like i get Paul is getting super smart by that point, like god-level smart, but i didn't think it was necessary to make her look dumb compared to him to highlight his intelligence. She is presented to us from the beginning as a very intelligent and very resourceful person and keeping her that way during their interactions would have been much more interesting. Other than that i think this is already one of my favorite sci-fi books.
I'm happy to see you revisit this. Books are touted as classics for a reason. Dune is a tough read, but I've never stopped thinking about it. I can't wait for the movie! That's a gorgeous copy.
Dont listen to this guy, Frank Herbert's Dune has an engaging story and he is in fact a great and smooth storyteller... Certainly more smooth than all the other writers he praises in this channel can dream to be, whose literal only trick in their bag is to normalize the weird sounding names they gave to fictional places and things by having the characters say them over and over again out loud like its no big deal. (This gives the viewer a sense of immersion and is totally not an overused to death technique by almost every single fantasy book ever since the 1950's) "The Sarlacs crossed the bridge of belanor as the Karks stared at them with anger. There had been long kept remorse in their hearts ever since the gutanor."
Shockingly, Dune takes a far more optimistic approach on the possibilities of humanity as the series steps forward. But the trials humanity goes through is rough.
Disagree entirely. Not sure how you can complain about pacing, repetition, or focus on things unnecessary to the plot and love the WoT series. Talk about pointless bloat. Dune is the LotR of sci-fi for a good reason. The world building is definitely the strongest part of the story, but pretty much all of the other criticisms of this are overblown.
I mean. When you already like sth you tend to suspend your disbelief and bare with the author more easily. He probably wasnt that intrigued by ths plot and therefore it was easier for him to be annoyed by ceratain things in the book, even if such things exist in other books he loves. I am currently reading Dune and have encounterwd none of what he has said, except mabey that some characters act dumb( although it is usually justified).
You're eye contact with the camera is really well managed. Been watching your videos for a while now and I'm just now realizing that it adds a layer of comfort and familiarity to your content.
the way Paul is dealing with fear has spoken to me again and again through the years and I return to it. The idea of meeting the fear head on and letting it pass through you is so healthy and good. It is immensely tough to actually do, but something about that just sticks with me.
It's a well-known technique in Buddhism, and Herbert was a Zen Buddhist. You 'dissolve emotions into their essence', which is flowing energy, through 'complete experience'.
I actually love getting your reviews on the Epic, Well Loved books because it really gives me a fuller understanding of the way you view a "great" book. I wasn't drawn into The Way of Kings like you were and I wondered why, but the more reviews I see you do with books I've also read, the more I can separate your personal taste in how a story unfolds from the more general appreciation for the ideas and structure of a book. Knowing that helps me know when a book you recommend will be something I personally need to read.
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Ok but that edition of Dune is *gorgeous* **chefs kiss**
The spice blue on the page edges is just 😩👌
If you haven't got it, you should get. The art in the deluxe edition of the book it is great.
Yes, it is.
You should also check out the Folio Society version, it's incredible.
I have the "50th anniversary edition" and I really dig that too. In fact they're a bit similar with the strong silhouettes, even if one is a person and one is a worm
I also gotta say, "dune" is such a nice title to make logos out of. Shame there's only so many 4 letter titles to go around...
This is one of the sexiest book covers ever.
? Evaluate please
I agree. This video was this first time I be seen it and it is gorgeous.
RealyOriginal chanel
Evaluate or elaborate?
I must admit I love that era of 60s and 70s paperbacks where the page edges were dyed blue or red or green
Oh definitely
I read this book when I was 17, I'm now 61 and I remember so many of the details like names of people, things and places. The Fremen have stayed fresh in my memory. Paul has remained in my head as a conflicted character in a world very different to that which he knew growing up. I never re-read the book but it has stuck with me for decades. LotR on the other hand, I've re-read a few times and is my most loved work of art. it's like an old friend, Dune is like a very impressive person that I met that left a big impression that I didn't see again.
Amen Sir
Pretty spot on, agree, this coming from someone who regularly re-reads silmarilion which is notoriously hard to read (according to everyone else). Its is a work of art, with the most phenomenal world building combined with truly epic tales beautifully written. Dune on the other hand has truly exceptional ideas and concepts but fails short in the quality of prose.
@@mafaveli nice humble brag oh wise one
@@Fartinhalerr lol which part was a humble brag?
@@mafaveli he meant the part about regularly re-reading the silmarilion.
My favorite part of Dune was the use of epigraphs before each "chapter", presented as citations from fictional texts/histories.
it's like a games loading screen when it gives you information/stories regarding the game
Yesss! It truly adds so much to the re read and I think Frank Herbert planned it that way. Just a chunk into God-Emperor and I almost want to re read the first three all over 😅😂
Reminded me of Carrie by Stephen King, which I loved in that book. And was that also in the first Wheel of Time book?
A large part of the pacing issue, as well as repetitions you mention, stem from the fact that Dune was written for magazine serialization and was only later published as a book.
For sure. It's typical of "classic" Sci-Fi from the age of the pulp serials. They were always a lot bigger on ideas than they were on plot. In fact if you compare Dune to many of the other great sci-fi works, like that of Asimov, Clarcke, etc. You will tend to see that it well deserves its status as the best-selling book in its genre. The fact that Dune holds together so well is actually somewhat remarkable and outstanding compared to its contemporaries.
I first read Dune in serial form in Analog magazine. It appeared in two pieces: "Dune" in three parts, followed about a year later by "The Prophet of Dune" in five parts. The illustrations by John Schoenherr are classic. Needless to say, I was blown away.
I also read by Brian Herbert that Frank also had a lot of Messiah and Children of Dune ideas ready before he even finished the full book of Dune. Fairly interesting to think about. Hadn’t known it was meant for a magazine, to be told over issues. Makes a lot of sense actually.
"He's redundant in ways he doesn't need to be. " That must be the Wheel of Time inspiration, lol
But what design was the embroidery on his spacesuit?!?!?
BURNN
Well Dune was published decades before WOT so I am not surprised if RJ was heavily inflenced by it
lmao daniel said this as i read it
@@jasminmemorando6694 WOT lifts a lot from Dune, but so did a lot of books. The Aes Sedai are basically the Bene Gesserit and Shaitan is both used for Paul's son, the God Emperor Leto II and the Sandworms, so RJ used the name Shai'tan as a way to honour Herbert, at least in my opinion.
“Good governance never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of those who govern. The machinery of government is always subordinate to the will of those who administer that machinery. The most important element of government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.”
-Frank Herbert, Dune Messiah.
I think this kinda sums up Frank Herbert's "ideology" and what is Dune about.
While we are on methods, I remember this one.
“Madness in method, that's genius”
― Frank Herbert
This, seems very relevant to current events, which is part of what makes this series/book stand out.
Domagoj Čović shut up
@Domagoj Čović I DO NOT want to go into too much detail bc rw politics derailing this channel. But I would suggest the looking at the behavior of current politicans and past politicans in times of crisis and how they create or thrive or try to prevent crisis is relevant.
90% of the people reading this and 50% of people in the general public will get it if they did read it.
Big tangent, but that sounds like the theme of the upcoming movie on Netflix " The Chicago 7". I'm looking forward to it more now with this quote in mind.
I actually love the way Dune is written...I found it so engrossing. I was shocked when I found out most people’s number 1 gripe with Dune is the way it’s written aha
I agree. Some people complain about the head hopping; but it’s nowhere near the level of head hopping as War and Peace and classic novels of that sort. I found it really easy to read.
I loved the writing too
most people are dumb lol
Easier to read then Lord of the Rings for me.
Same. I found the writing really captivating. I was surprised when I went to goodreads and found a bunch of terrible reviews about the book. One criticism actually said “terrible world building ”. At this point I lost my belief that I was arguing with a logical person, and never opened the review section again
Fun fact: J.R.R. Tolkien read DUNE shortly after its release and said he “disliked it with some intensity.”
In many respects it is the mirror image of The Lord of the Rings.
@Domagoj Čović Elaborate, please. My arguments are that, for example, one is in a lush environment in the past, the other in a desert in the future.
@Ned Kelly Yes, as I said, they are very opposite.
@Ned Kelly Tolkien wasn't against allegory. Daniel made a video about what exactly he said.
@Domagoj Čović Yes, as I said mirror image. Sorry, maybe we have misunderstanding of the expression - mirror image means something directly opposite to another thing, right?
I’m so glad I’ve found someone who agrees! I’m about 2/3rds of the way through Dune, and I am LOVING it, but at the same time, it’s taking me forever to get through it, because I don’t feel like I’m being propelled along by compelling storytelling. It’s like I’m studying the book, rather than reading it. The reason I’m so excited for the Villeneuve movie is that this might be the chance for all of Herbert’s fantastic ideas to be filtered through the lens of a fantastic storyteller.
Ye i agree
It took me weeks and weeks to read lol.
What you said about Villeneuve's movie, I agree 100%. Hopefully the movie would smooth things out a bit and not make it such a drag
Hahaha it's the same for me! I've decided to finally read it, because it is a classic and i'm so intrigued by the world. but yes, it is taking me forever haha
"The reason I’m so excited for the Villeneuve movie is that this might be the chance for all of Herbert’s fantastic ideas to be filtered through the lens of a fantastic storyteller" PFFFFFFFT! LOL!
@@thesupremeatheistintellect64 haha that line tickled me as well. guy's got a promising career in comedy if he ever figures out which end is the joke.
that cover is absolutely beautiful. I need to pick one up before the movie covers decend
The movie cover is out and it's actually pretty good.
@@Revanchist oooh where? On Amazon?
I love his copy dude but I got the leatherbound collectors edition copy just yesterday cuz I love that one so much but idk what the good copies are 😔 or the most beloved...
The penguin galaxy edition has simpler, but I would argue better art.
Oh god fucking movie covers
Can't disagree more on the story telling. It is exceptional. Loved the way the present is constantly put into perspective with excepts from future historical texts. Also impressed with the seamless perspective switches between multiple characters in the same scene. Added a lot of depth into every moment
I started dune like a week ago thinking it was going to be a slog, but holy crap it's so engaging and interesting. I do not get at all how the storytelling and be faulted here
Good take my man. I feel it could add to the re read as well. If you haven’t gotten to God-Emperor, the historical texts really reflect more the changes in the main antagonist from the past book to that one. Not trying to spoil anything for anyone that hasn’t gotten there! Cheers my dude 👍
The POV switches between characters in the same scene is probably my favorite aspect and something I wish I could see more writers do. I understand it's fucking hard but still, so cool
@@awsomeman350 hope you finished it, I literally just finished it and it was so AWESOME
Frank Herbert undoubtedly one of the best writers to write in third person omniscient pov. I mean, even if you are given to access to everyone's thoughts, you still feel the tension between his characters.
I find a little irony in Daniel commenting on Herbert focusing on things that don't benefit the narrative too much. It reminded me of another author with a strange obsession with dresses... :P
“Too right around the-“
x 357 over and over again
I’m new, can somebody debrief me on the joke?
@@xaviercopeland2789 Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is one of Daniels favourites, and Jordan famously described everyone's fashion in *exacting* detail
I agree, WoT my favorite book series, but Jordan's need to re describe every character/city/magic system in maddening detail, every book, like its the first book in the series. That drove me mad.
Ironically, one of the things that drove me mad reading WOT is how some things were described exactly once, and then referenced by name alone a bazillion times. Referring specifically to the magic items, one can be used my men, one by women, and one by both, and they all have almost the exact same name. Then when mentioned after the initial description, it is just the name with no contextual clues as to its function. I would get to that point, and I was thinking, "which kind is that?" Just drop one braid tug, or the completely unnecessary "under her breasts" that followed EVERY instance of a woman folding her arms, and give me the contextual clue as to what kind of magical item it is, and can Rand use it, or will it have to be Egwene?
Daniel Greene, the Wheel of Time guy criticizing an author for being redundant and repetitive.....
Fwiw I'm not complaining. I love WoT and am lukewarm on Dune and love this channel
Was going to post the same thing lol
The redundant and repetitiveness of Dune makes the slowest WOT book seem to be a rocketship to Mars. (Not saying I don't like Dune... just saying that even at the slowest points WOT was much more plot driven and action filled)
IKR
also.. antagonists being "over the top evil".. ehh.. :D
The story is really more of a vehicle for Herbert to explore and dissect his ideas and I can see why you wouldn't be a fan of that. Regardless, I love how you tackled this review and this video was really in-depth. You're a really underrated channel.
Ulrik Trillana I haven’t read this yet but I’m a really idea/thème loving reader so I’m actually more excited about this hearing that
Dune has a good story though, i think that this really starts being a problem with the sequels. In Dune, frank actually told a entertaining story with ideas, themes, philosophy, etc helping to enhance it. In the sequels he cares more about pushing ideas, themes, philosophy, etc, instead of telling a good story, there is a lot of stuff that makes no sense plot wise and characterization wise. I particularly hate the treatment to Alia and lady jessica.
Anyway, i still like the first book a lot xD.
I've read Dune 28 times. I find something new every time I read it. I suspect that has to do with my aging perspectives, but it's still worth noting. I consider it to be the finest science fiction novel I've ever read.
One thing I really missed in the new movie version is Irulan's introductory moments. Her character is revealed through them and I'm afraid the movie director is writing her off. She's not just a pretty face.
Agreed. Princess Irulan served a great role curating the historical events between this pivotal feud of the great houses. I get the feeling her character may be viewed as having no value in regard to the new movie.
Also conspicuously missing is the spacing guild and its navigators. The ability of their navigators to use their spice-enhanced minds for instantaneous interstellar travel was key to the power held by the guild. The guild is barely even factored into the new movie. Although the guild was not one of the great houses they were a major force to be dealt with in Paul's rise to power.
The new movie overall is good. I just get the feeling that it is targeted more for the Mavel and DC universe movie crowd. Part of the allure of Dune was always meditating on the philosophies and ideas behind it. Not just the atmosphere and action scenes.
@@SoundsFromBeyond Weird. I loved the movie because I felt it was like the anti-MCU film. It was a blend of arthouse and blockbuster that I haven't seen as well-done since LOTR.
But opinions are like...well, you know.
I read Dune about a year ago. Took me a whole month to get through. On finishing it, I didn't know how to feel about it. Wasn't the biggest fan of the pacing and the writing but the ideas, concepts and themes presented are fascinating. Guess I just love Dune for its ideas, especially for the time in which it was written, and not necessarily for the way the story is told.
I really liked the idea of the world and the different characters, however I found it confusing and I feel it was much longer than it needed to be, I just grew impatient with it all and by the end I wasn’t reading it with the same enthusiasm and interest
@@mystrugle900 I too found the books tough to read on first go, but then I re-read them a year later and found the second read so much better because I could understand it more, and I realised I missed a lot of the main hints and clues and ideas that flew right over my head the first time. It's my favourite series of all time now, it's my baby. I suggest you give them another read too. Or you can wait for the new movie to come out in October, hopefully it'll present the story in a less confusing way and help restore the enthusiasm and interest for you!
Exactly how I felt about it. Had to actually tell myself 'right, I'll do 50 pages today, I can do that' to force myself to finish the book. Having finished I can say I loved everything about it (characters, the world, themes etc) except the pacing and the writing style. Taking a break now before I can talk myself into having a go at book 2.
I'd like to point out that Paul Atreides is a not a chosen one. He is NOT a messiah. He was not destined for anything specific. There are no such things as messiahs and prophesied saviors in the Dune universe. Paul and his mother deliberately and knowingly used the Fremen's (not free men...) religious beliefs to make themselves be accepted among them so that they can survive in the desert, and eventually use the Fremen to destroy their own enemies, the Harknonnens and the emperor. Paul and his mother manipulated the Fremen right from the beginning. Just because Paul eventually "went native" and took on elements of the Fremen cause, doesn't actually make him any more of a genuine savior; he played the role that he chose to play, nothing more.
This pervasive, and annoying, misinterpretation of Paul as an actual savior is the source of so many complaints about Dune suffering from "white savior syndrome" and also completely misses the point of the book and the whole Dune series. Charismatic leaders are dangerous and even more so when people follow them unquestioningly. THAT is the lesson of Dune. There are no saviors, and those who present themselves as such will only lead you to ruin. People have to think for themselves and take action to keep themselves free, not solely rely on some great "dear leader."
Paul was the perfect human the Bene Geseret were trying to create, but he came one generation early. So you missed the fact that he was a prophesied chosen one. There was a reason his mother wasn't supposed to bear a son for his father.... They wanted to breed a daughter from Jessica and Leto with a Harkonen and that was supposed to be the perfect human. She failed in her mission out of love for Leto. On another note, Paul ended up becoming a monster more than a chosen one hero. (Dune Messiah... Children of Dune).
@@christopherrousseau1173 Paul wasn't prophesied or chosen, he was engineered and bred. No prophesies or messiahs here, just a very a long-term genetic and social engineering project.
And even the religious beliefs and prophesies of the Fremen that Paul and Jessica exploited were seeded by the Bene Gesserit across numerous worlds for that specific purpose.
You didn't mention one of the most important elements that leads to Paul being perceived as the Lisan Al-Gaib by the Fremen and that is the Missionaria Protectiva. The Bene Gesserit planted the prophecy on Arrakis centuries before the Atreides got there. Jessica reflects on this numerous times.
Exactly! The David Lynch film completely missed this point, making it seem like Paul was actually the promised savior. Hopefully the new movie will correct this, we’ll see. The Fremen were manipulated first by the Bene Gesserit, then later by Paul and his mother.
I liked Dune more once id read Dune Messiah i think. Also i like the new overlays but can you leave them on the screen a bit longer :)
Am I alone in also really enjoying Chapterhouse? You need to read the last two books to get the full arc, but it’s pretty awesome
@@michaelvcelentano
No, not alone. I've read all 6 books. While I agree that Messiah and Children go down in quality the last 3, God Emperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse are strong and worthy of being read.
@@michaelvcelentano Chapterhouse is pretty great, but I hold Heretics up near the first book. It's truly fantastic.
Yes, the new overlays are great, they just need a couple more seconds on scene I think.
@@jessicahiveley1274 agreed, I wound up rewinding and pausing to read them
It's funny, coz on top of loving everything you praise, I actually highly enjoy his writing style! The fact that he tells us ahead of time the plot, as it is not what is relevant, but rather wants us to enjoy the journey rather than only the destination is what sets him appart and higher than any other author for me!
At first I found the fact that he kind of spoils his own plot to be quite novel, and as you say, it definitely works because HOW events play out is where the intrigue is, while the characters are already smart or magically gifted enough to see where events are headed anyways. It's not a "who dunnit" narrative.
But recently I realised it's even better than that, it ties in thematically with one of the biggest recurring conflicts in the books (I'm halfway through Children of Dune): the feeling of being trapped by prescient foresight, having to play out the grand events of Time that you've already become aware of before they happen, but struggling to establish your will and your human identity amidst those unstoppable tides despite everything.
@@LoudWaffle I think irulan explaining at the beggining of every chapter some vague story about what Paul is to become the most engaging part of the book. I had to see of this character would fall down the path of turning people flesh and bones into drums of war.
Thank you, that’s exactly, in my opinion, what made Dune a masterpiece💯
I love Dune, but it comes with an adjustment period. For me, the biggest adjustment is to do with the POV. It takes a while to get used to the head-hopping, as it's quite disorientating. But once you get adjusted to it, it makes for an interesting read! I love knowing everyone's thoughts. As the series progresses and gets more political, it's fascinating to know what everyone's plotting. Dune is told in a different way to most other books - it's why I love it, but I can see why some people would find it difficult.
Biggest adjustment turned biggest appeal
I didn't have this issue, but I also listened to the audiobook instead of reading, so the different voices made it very clear where I was in the story and who was in what scene. It was quite good.
Fair, but I didn't have problem with the head hopping, since I'm empathic (psychological disposition, not magical powers). I think a lot of people struggle with "head hopping", because modern writing is so ... shallow... and because most writers aren't good enough to pull it off. I take strong issue with DG's assessment that "Frank Herbert isn't a good storyteller." I've read Dune 7 times. To say it's not "good storytelling" is absolutely presumptuous, at least as far as Dune and its successor, Dune Messiah.
Children of Dune and the books after that... DG may have a point, though Herbert's drug habit had wrecked his brain by then, and it's honestly hard to follow the latter books... but Dune is a crisp, multilayered plot, with deep, fully fleshed out characters all around, with an incredibly satisfying story arc, with world building and characters that I'd put up against ANY fantasy genre. IMO
I've always thought of Dune as more of a book of Philosophy that happens to use a narrative to help convey its thoughts.
Loving the blueprint but not the execution is how I feel about Altered Carbon
Heart of Michi check out ghost in the shell, specially the manga
@@leonardopires9344 omg i love ghost in the shell -- i actually am almost too into cyberpunk and dystopian anime lol
That’s how I feel about The Wheel of Time series
Wow, Altered Carbon is one of my favorite Sci Fi books
@@cbob213 I have such mixed feelings. I actually filmed a review because I both love and hate it
“When I am gone, they must call me Shaitan, the Emperor of Gehenna. The wheel must turn and turn and turn along the Golden Path.” -Leto II, God Emperor of Dune
I mean shaitan is an Arabic word that has nothing to do with Herbert's books but I supposed that's true to form for him.
shethewriter I think maybe he’s making a wheel of time reference?
Dont wanna spoil anything, but yes you need to read god emperor to realize dont wanna spoil
@@shethewriter shaitan mean demon
Interesting. Shaitan literally means Satan in Arabic.
Dune will be a solid 10/10 for me. Read it several times and will read it again before watching the next movie adaptation. That being said, I dont disagree with your criticism at all. All fair points.
For me its just very subjectively a book I like in every aspect. While yes, the pacing can be slow and I would have loved to see more pages on characters I like, I came to appreciate Frank Herbert's writing for what he wanted to tell and how he did it. This is of course being influenced by the two direct sequels on many of the themes and the 3 other books that expanded a lot on the universe and the problems of it, but Dune itself is just like Lord of the Rings for me. I can kick back, read, discover something I did not pick up on previous reads and smile on enjoying a timeless piece of storytelling.
Dune is one of those books that could have been a lot more streamlined, but it's also kind of a miracle it ever got published in the first place. Herbert was not a well known author when he wrote it, he'd had some short stories published that were well received but not overly popular. Dune was sort of a culmination of a lot of stories he'd written over the span of years combined into a single narrative, not a planned one.
When he submitted it to publishers, they almost universally found it too weird for general audiences and didn't think it would sell... which is understandable, since the idea of a 'space opera' pretty much starts with Dune. The only publishers willing to take a chance was a company that almost exclusively published technical manual and was only just trying to branch out into fiction... so unfortunately didn't have real top tier editors. So that explains the clunkiness of a lot of it.
the fact that it's never been out of print in spite of all that is kind of amazing
Bene Gesserit -> Aes Sedai
Fremen -> Aiels
In later books
Honored matriarchs -> Senchans
Having been very marked by my reading of Dune (so long ago) the parallels in Wot were obvious.
In the real world too actually I think our planet running out of spice soon will lead to something akin to the peace of Leto I won't say any more
@@kngishere395 Seeing that they both based their stories on the archetype of "the messiah" these parallelisms should be expected. Their themes seem to be different though. I need to finish reading The Wheel of Time to get a better grasp of Jordan's theme.
it’s the opposite for me as i recognize the similarities during my read rn lol
my favourite fictional messiah is Jesus
@@jchinckley Don't forget that there is a male and female half of the Dune race consciousness that the other half can't access, references to a world where all physical limits are removed, knowledge passed down from past lives, and a whole host of minor references. I guess you could say swordfighting as a plot point but that's a little too generic. Fremen having their own Reverend Mothers outside of traditional training, honestly just the Aiel are so much Fremen it's hard not to compare. As much as the Trollocs are Beastmen/Orcs and the shadowfiends (can't spell) are ringwraiths. Maybe I was just looking to find comparisons...
@@gajbooks I'm sure RJ took inspiration from Dune, but Jordan was a historian and based his creations on more than just one source. To my mind, he used Celtic (the red hair), Asian (the tribe structure?), and the fearlessness of more than just Fremen/Sardaukar/Spartans to come up with the Aiel. Yes, you should _all_ know by now that if you look hard enough at *_any_* piece of literature you will find the authors/books/stories that influenced the author of the piece under consideration. It is a common thing and talked about by a number of contemporary authors.
I finished it today and I thought it was really well written. Herbert managed to convey a lot of themes like spirituality, religion, drug use, politics, colonialism, so the writing had to be simple and not too complicated so that the readers appreciate the world of Dune, which I did. So to me it's a total success ! And that book is almost 60 years old !
Dune isn't for everyone. It's got this status as a classic, and that means that modern audiences feel almost obliged to like it if they want to retain their nerd cred.
As someone who absolutely adores Dune, I have a hard time recommending it, because it is a flawed book. It's dry and clunky and about as subtle as a brick to the head in places. For someone who grew up reading Golden Age sci-fi, that's not really an issue. But for modern readers, it can be a shock, and there's this sense of obligation to like this thing that has long been held as a pillar of the genre.
Dune and its immediate sequels, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, are easily in my top five sci-fi properties, right up there with The Stars My Destination, Ender's Game, The Forever War, and The Demolished Man. I love classic science fiction, but as someone who also enjoys contemporary stories, I can appreciate how the genres has evolved and improved in many ways. If it's lost some of the depth and richness, generally speaking, it's a lot more streamlined and digestible. That's not a knock against modern works; tastes change and standards for storytelling have risen.
It always pains me to see someone trying to force themselves to like Dune, or anything else for that matter, because they think they have to. It's okay to admit that it has flaws, or even to say that you don't enjoy something, even if it is considered a classic.
I really appreciate what you're saying. Not necessarily in relation to this (I vaguely knew of the Dune series before the trailer and now my curiosity has been piqued) but in relation to other fandoms too.
Harry Potter for example. When I was younger I wasn't allowed to read it, but now that I am I have no desire to. Partly because fantasy just isn't my favorite genre (LOTR has a special place of course) but also because I hated how people I encountered from that fanbase made me feel.
"*Gasp* you've never read the HP books!? What's wrong with you?"
"Well if you don't like HP then I don't know if we can be friends"
"How dare you think that *other book series* is better than HP! HP is perfect!"
It's stuff like this that just really upsets me, why should I have to like something just because it's so huge and popular? Nothing is perfect, and shaming people for their opinion, for not like something despite it's legendary...ness, even for something like Dune, just doesn't sit well with me. I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to get across, other than that your comment just really resonated with me. Sorry for the super long rant.
ive only read the first book but i thought after the first 3-4 chapters each chapter is great and very enticing. the shorts ones were quick in showing something of importance and longer ones did a great job at revealing great swaths of story and character
Like Shakespeare...
Honestly, in a way I feel the same about LotR. This might sound strange given that it's the most famous fantasy novel ever but I've had so many friends (albeit mostly not very avid readers) either DNF it or say that they didn't enjoy how long winded it was. I think the problem is compounded by the fact that (a) everyone nowadays has seen the movies going into it and it gives a somewhat wrong impression of what the book is going to be like and (b) because it's so famous, it's a lot of people's first step into fantasy and as far as fantasy goes, it's not the easiest read
i always tell people that it's hard to get into, but if you can, you won't be able to put it down. despite the obvious execution flaws, the core story is just unlike anything else in science fiction and will really challenge your world view. The ending is frankly haunting on multiple levels.
One interesting thing about the book is that even though it had been published as serials in Analog magazine, no publisher wanted to release it as a novel. Only Chilton gave it a chance. Yes, the publisher of car/truck repair manuals was the first to publish Dune as a novel.
I finished this book last week. I cannot believe I finished it in just 6 days! I loved it from beginning to end and considering it’s length and how difficult of a story it is, I found it to be one of, if not my most enjoyed read of the year.
I did the same thing back when I was travelling with my parents. It made the evenings fly by and made it one of the fondest vacations of my life.
@@DaedalusShard I read it over vacation too.
Just caught this review, I hadn't realized you did an updated review.
Gotta tell you I appreciate this 6.5 more than most of the 8/9s out there.
Don't get me wrong, I love this book, I've re-read it 3 or four times, but it only stands as a series, you're right, it does fine as a single story, but it really gets into its theme when it gets into the cost of the Golden path.
I love you're appreciation of the validity of the themes of Herbert and the personalization of the review. You're right, when I want to get into a plot that takes me away, ⊃∪∩⪽ is not what I'm gonna read.
Thanks man, love your channel.
Time to hear what the Greene Giant REALLY thinks of this book XD
Greene Giant? Awesome!!!
HO HO HO!!!
Greene Giant??!!! He’s the *GREEENE GOD!*
I’ve been reading all six Herbert Dune books every few years. Not only do I get something new from each book during every read through, but you also how Herbert’s themes carry through the whole story.
Ultimately Herbert has hope for humanity but he does not downplay the struggles that will indeed be with our species for a very long time.
This book is definitely in my top 10 of all time, has been ever since I first read it in 2003. I've also read it 4 times, and what you experienced upon the second read - it makes sense. Herbert is definitely not a "great story teller," but the story he is trying to tell us is so much more than just the progress of Paul and the other characters. Every time I read this book, I learn something more about myself. And THAT is why it is in my top10. The subsequent books in Frank Herbert's Dune hexalogy dig even deeper into those questions of ideas and nature of humanity. Well worth the read if you are an "idea" reader like me.
Another thing I agree with you on is the world he creates. It is very very addictive, as any DuneFan will tell you. I for one will read pretty much everything Herbert's son writes because it takes place in his world (even though the literary value of the surrounding books is very much questionable at times).
And let's not forget that this is one of the most quotable series of books I've ever come across.
Any other books you'd recommend for an "idea" reader?
I'm reading the Mistborn trilogy right now and I'm also seeing a lot of Dune influence in it - from the coveted substances that enhance abilities, to the exploration of how humans that become deified
also the little quotes from an in-universe history book at the start of every chapter! Those are in both Dune and Mistborn.
I just picked it up (Reading it for the first time. At 100 pages). The first few chapters are intriguing, but at the same time seem like a barrier you have to push trough to get to the good parts of the book. After that however things seemed to just click and I’m finding the characters a bit more interesting.
Lol I blitzed through the 6 books in a month at the beginning of quarantine then reread 1-5 in September lol
Just gotten into Dune, fell in love with it. I want to say, my first jump into it, I did feel that kinda confusion or lost feeling of trying to keep up or understand Frank. The only advice I can give, is truly slow down on parts. Try to see the vision as Frank did. Re read a page or two if you feel that. Once I started taking my time, it all came together nicely. Could of just been us my man hahaha cheers, appreciate your insight and retrospective thoughts on this series. 👌
Edit: I want to say, Franks dialogue and use of characters really gets better in Children of Dune and more so God-Emperor of Dune. More moving parts, more conversations that feel fluent and natural. I think Franks writing style changing through the series is very interesting.
Herbert described Dune as having a coital rhythm, starting slow then reaching a climax. He does it both micro and macro wise, and the entire time he planned for the first to books to set up God-Emperor of Dune, since he had the entire history and story of the first three books planned before he ever wrote a single word. For many if not most hard-core Dune fans, God-Emperor is definitely the best book in the series.
I enjoy your reviews immensely. Especially the way you phrase your recommendations of "if you enjoy x, y , and z in a story, you'll probably enjoy this book" sure there are more critics who do that section in a review, but it can often have a certain judgy feeling to it. I've never felt that with your reviews. Weirdly enough that's exactly what makes me want to read certain books even though they are probably not for me.
Dune is not going to be for me, but I've never wanted to read it more than right now. XD
That edition is a beauty! I picked up Dune years ago and just couldn't really get into it, however, I think I'll give it another go before the movie comes out. Great review, it's nice to hear some well thought out criticisms from someone who's reread it years later
I'm curious to know if Hyperion by Dan Simmons is on your TBR. If not, it's one of the best cerebral SciFi novels imo.
There is so much going on under the hood in Hyperion and I'd love to see Daniel's take on it.
That's on my TBR; got a copy sat on my bookshelf. But I'm a tad unsure about starting it; I've heard a LOT of people say that the sequels don't measure up to the quality of the first book and that the first one ends on a cliffhanger. Not sure how i feel about starting a story where so many people dislike it after the first part
@@robertwinslade3104 I've read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion and I'd say that while Fall isn't as good as the first book, it's still very much worth your time. It's the sequel duology (Endymion and Rise of Endymion) that has a lackluster reputation, but I can't speak to those as I haven't read them.
Love this book so much
Not sure "cerebral" is the right word. But it's a fantastic book. I haven't read it in over a decade and I still have very fond, and emotional, memories about the Scholar's story. Really good stuff! Haven't read the rest of the series, but I hear they don't compare to Hyperion.
Dune was crazy influential in video games too. Dune II was the first RTS game (as we'd define an RTS), which eventually branched off into franchises like Warcraft, Starcraft, and Command & Conquer. Warcraft ultimately lead to Dota, which lead to League of Legends and Dota 2 helping to blow-up esports in the early 2010's.
I don't read much sci-fi to be honest, but your review made me curious enough, and the Trailer, to put it on my list of books to read this year or 2021. Thank you for all your research and opinions, Daniel, it was because of you, that I pick up The Wheel of Time, after so many years, to read it once more.
is WoT really worth reading since the author died? I think i tapped out after book 9 or 10 when i found out RJ died. He just seemed so obsessed with his own world and characters he couldn't bare wrapping up the story and just kept making new plotlines. It was masterfully written but I just found the overall planning frustrating.
Tiny suggestion: leave the category break-down text a little longer so we can read it as you go through it. :D
+
Agree
I love that edition so much it's sooo pretty and shiny (and yes I've bought that one lol) 🙈
I bought it to and it arrived in the mail yesterday. It is absolutely beautiful!
Yep, I have a perfectly good hardcover 1st edition but I needed this one as soon as I saw it.
The book being written in 3rd Person Omniscient rather than either 3rd Person Limited or 1st Person is really jarring for modern readers.
Although I have never read the book, the way how you describe might be very well be true.
That was one of my biggest take aways when I read it for the first time a few months ago. I was so thrown off by the omniscient narrator but it was also what made me want to stick around.
It's a narrativized historical account by someone with the genetic memories in them :)
True, I red it just after reading A game of thrones, where you have the point of view of only one character per chapter, so even if there are several point of view characters in a scene, you know for sure whos perspective you're seeing. After that I red Dune, where Herbert writes in third person mostly, but than keeps jumping from perspective to perspective even in the same scene. Man could it get jarring.
As a huge fan of Dune, thank you for your honest assessment of its flaws. It's really easy for people to gloss over the bad of something for being so enamored with the good.
Daniel, maybe one day you'll also think something along "it's cute and amusing how people talk about Dune series and characters, and the story without reading all the way through to the Chapterhouse."
Man, I promise you'll remember Paul Atreides almost as if he was a side-character when you'll make it to the last book. I mean, thousands of years pass... The plot and some of the underlying ideas become clear and obvious after you've read the very last (the sixth) book. I genuinely enjoyed how the books kept me thinking and engaged. The writing is multilayered, deep and prodigious.
About the ideas... I think Frank Herbert touched every major issue and theme with these books.
If you're (as any sane person) perfectly capable of pretending that Brian's books never happened - you'll certainly enjoy Frank Herbert's idea about the Butlerian Jihad against people who were dependant on thinking machines and applied machine thinking principles to other people. I think it makes a lot of sense in our days, much more sense than when the books were first published.
And frankly speaking, I often think about Bene Gesserit... Their way of thinking inspired me so much that I guess I secretly identify myself as a Bene Gesserit trained.
I really ought to read the rest of the series. I've always been dissuaded because I hear they don't hold a candle to Dune.
@@flavoredwallpaper you should def read them for yourself. Hope you enjoy.
holy shit, I just finished the book like 4 hours ago lol
The more of Dune I read, the more I loved it. By the time I finished Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, it had cemented itself as the most original and unique thing I have ever read. Great series.
So... I LIKE Dune. But it was very hard to chew through the first time through. Some authors are able to write in a fluid way. Like floating down a river you are gently, or forcefully drown through the story, each bump and dunking along the way serving as a part of a journey that moves to a specific end.
Others, like FH, have a style that to me feels like mountain climbing, each handhold and anchor is a struggle and a battle. There are fascinating and beautiful moments and thrilling developments but it is a daunting task and can leave those inexperienced in that story falling away from it. But surmounting the summit of that story feels satisfying and grand, looking back at where you have been and what you read and the literlly hard won lesson for both character and reader, makes it a kind of athletic pleasure.
All my opinion of course.
You're so right about the writing, I keep hoping I will get into the narrative flow but there is no flow so it's hard to build momentum. I am interested in the ideas and the characters however, so on I go.
Beautiful metaphor!
I actually read Dune about a month and a half ago and I loved it! To see the trailer come out shortly after I finished it was amazing! I had completely forgotten that a new movie was coming.
I’d recommend reading the next two books
I feel as Herbert improves the story much more in messiah and children
I agree and would like to see his thoughts after trying at least one more. The third book I feel changes the world's, as far as ones Frank wrote, the most and Frank gets to the heart of some of his ideas. The books where Brian took over writing from Frank's notes I feel are good but lose and add things Frank wasn't meaning to.
Jonathan O'Neal I think that was part of the point Herbert was trying to do for children
Dune was in decline there was only arrakis
In a way I believe showing the difference on how Paul failed and was willing to take a certain path he was a charming leader and brought with him a change
While children of dune and Leto are a different tale dune is in decline and arrakis remained Leto was something else he’s far worse compared to Paul
If this makes any sense
I stopped myself at Messiah and I can say I love the 1st and 2nd
And after Children he falls off the deep end.
he should continue to Messiah
in my opinion its the conclusion
the next two books are like a start of a separate adventure :p
you nailed my thoughts on this book EXACTLY. I wasn't able to understand why I couldn't really get into the book, given this should have been right up my alley. You earned yourself a sub!
Curious about whether you'll try the sequels? I haven't read them myself (yet) but I've heard some people say that the story is incomplete without reading at least Messiah and Children of Dune and that they elevate the quality of the first book
After children of dune it feels like a more complete story.
I'd agree with that, Messiah and Children of Dune complete the story of Paul
Emperor of Dune shows the legacy his children inherited and embraced
I feel like you don’t really know what the series is fully about until you’re well into Children of Dune. I enjoyed Heretics and Chapterhouse a lot. Herbert had definitely ironed out some of the plot and pacing issues mentioned on this video. I could be wrong but I seem to recall hearing/reading that he only started writing God Emperor once he was well into Heretics as it became evident he needed to fill in some gaps. God Emperor is HEAVY and to me stands out from the others in a very distinct way. Where the other books are sci-fi with tons of philosophy laced in God Emperor in many ways philosophy veiled in sci-fi.
I certainly appreciated Herbert’s vision far more after completing the original series and am really bummed he didn’t get a chance to write the 7th.
@@e.j.maynard4363 I agree loved the trilogy was a bit meh over God Emp the loved Heretics and Chapter House ... I should read Sandworms but am scared to ... I’ve just got hold of the deluxe so doing a reread and going back to it for the first time in almost 20 years ... I’ll do the original six and try Sandworms ... the jury is out on the prequels ... my wife ikes them so....
@@johnmedany9294 yeah I’ve been toying with the idea of getting into the sequels/prequels. Now that the movie isn’t coming out until next Oct I’ll probably dive right in
My only criticism of your review of dune, is that the faults you have with Herbert's writing style you seem to be okay with in tolkien's. I don't know about you but I had a much easier time reading herbert than I ever did tolken
100% agree. And that's not to say that Dune is perfect. Far from it. But neither is Tolkien. And you can tell that Tolkien's skills were in creating languages and world-building, not writing fiction. I think Dune is far more readable than Tolkien's LOTR, despite its flaws. But like Tolkien, Herbert's imitators wrote better books. I still credit the two respective writers for what they did to the genres of fantasy and sci-fi.
like he says, every review is subjective. sometimes you feel differently about the same thing in different contexts, even if you can't put your finger on how or why. i feel he did a good enough job explaining where his personal biases/preferences were affecting the review and pointing out the strengths and flaws of the book.
I agree! I'm zooming through Dune. I got stuck on LOTR, I felt the pacing was far more inconsistent than dune.
Before anything is said, I must disclose that I'm a long-time reader of Tolkien, while I'm just midway in my first round through Dune.
That situation out of the way, I find both books moving in opposite directions so much as to be uncomparable.
Paul is a chosen one who is also an apprentice Gesserit and an innate Mentat. Saying he is the individual with most potential in the galaxy is an understatement.
Frodo is a slightly above average hobbit at best, and a sack of potatoes at worst.
Herbert relies too much on portraying the thoughts of characters every other paragraph. Even feeling jaring how the PoV jumps from character to character even in a single page.
Tolkien has very few thuoghts on the page, rather relying on descriptions and dialogue to convey those thoughts.
This creates a very stark stylistic distinction, where Herbert has a character think something, another character asking that same something, and the first character replying about that something just to have another thought bubble follow the brief dialogue.
I feel this redundancy is where the repetitive feeling comes from.
Both are slow burning books. And their world building is of comparable quality.
Tolkien focuses on portraying a world where the glory and beauty has faded into ruins, while Herbert focuses more in the societies and characters.
One thing I appreciate in Herbert is his use of the smell. It's an underappreciated sense in literature, yet it can set the tone of scenes rather nicely.
Daniel, I feel like you missed on a crucial detail. The betreyal was on paper impossible. These doctors have some sort of conditioning that they physically CANNOT hurt people (or betray for that reason). Essentially this was as likely to them as ghandi launching nukes on USA would be for us. Harkonnens managed to somehow overwrite this conditioning and if I remember correctly they never said how they did it. To reader it may seem obvious that he would be suscpicious but in this world he’s literally the Last person anyone would ever suspect.
The book does mention the "lever" used to move Yueh to betray the Atreides; they tortured his wife.
@@countOfHenneberg tortured is a very light word to describe what happened.
As someone who recently graduated college and has begun to read for fun once again, Dune was constantly hitting the G-spot of this philosophy/history/psych student's taste.
Perfect read? Not at all.
Beautiful exploration of the human condition through story? Absolutely.
The Dune books read more like a treatise than a novel (and I loved it!).
Thanks for the honest review. IMO the sequels are what makes this first book shine the most. I appreciated first book when I read the whole series. So I don't know If you are planning to pick up the Dune saga but you should at least read Dune Messiah. It is not really a new installment to the series but rather a epilogue for the first book (it is a tiny book too).
This becomes Leto II's story as it progresses. I haven't heard Merphy go down the sequels and I think you might enjoy his story of sacrifice.
*leaping out of bed at 6am after getting the notification for Daniel's dune review*
"The sleeper has awakened"
Lol you live on the opposite side of earth to me it's 19:00 here
This review helped me so much! I came on RUclips looking for reviews because I'm reading it for the first time and struggling. I'll keep going, but with different expectations of it. Thank you, I appreciate it!
I’ve been wanting to read this for so long. I may read it before the movie comes out. Nice review, Daniel!
I would say that this is currently my favorite book. The sandworms, Arrakis, Melange, and the different houses are all great factors in this amazing story. I mean, come on man! 6.5? I would rate dune a 10/10.
I would love to see how 45 yo future Daniel feels when he reads it again. The older I get, the more nuances I get and the more it 'holds up'.
That is my experience as well. I have read the book 8 times starting when I was 14. Getting ready to read it a 9th at 50.
Agreed.
Edwin Alvarez that’s awesome. I’ve read Dune twice within a year I liked it so much. I can see it being a book I read many times throughout my life.
Is this because of the complexity of the ideas that Herbert discusses? I think I got a lot more from this book at 35 than I could have at 25 or 15. Once you've lived a bit in the real world and learned more about human nature, it hits pretty hard.
This is a very good point.
Watching a younger person, once again, frustrated that something isn't moving fast enough for them is very telling in societal changes and patience.
I was waiting for this, I'm not sure whether to read the book before or after the movie release...
Before... You will explore it by yourself and then when you see it in the movie it will be more impactful 😎👍
I was wondering the same thing but I decided to read it now. I'm a few days into it
After 100%. Movies of books often can be decent movies of their own right but are disappointing to readers of the book. I doubt enjoyment of the movie would go up from reading the book, but it very likely could go down.
Reading a book after watching the movie is always better I have found. It fills in all the gaps and gives you a better understanding of what's going on.
If you read before, your mind can wander ahead to what is coming, but also you get taken out of the movie if they cut or change a scene from the book which you are expecting.
reading a book and then seeing it realized in a movie is much more rewarding because you can compare it to how you visualized everything. I haven't read this book yet but I want to because it seems like a majority of people really like it and I want to watch the movie after reading it myself
I just finished Dune last night for the first time and felt quite the opposite of this review. I really, really enjoyed Frank Hebert's writing style specifically how the characters would tell you their thoughts. That is exactly how it is nowadays with the texting. People speak and then text you their thoughts. It made me feel like I was right there in the story, feeling with the characters. Gosh, I could not put it down. It was amazing considering he wrote this in the 60's. I will put up my own Dune book review this week so check it out if you are interested in another take on this classic book.
Hell yeah!! Dune review again.
I remember reading the trilogy when I was 11 years old, I thought the story was well told in its own unique way, completely different from all other books at my local library. But I imagine the ease of reading bwas improved by the translator.
To this day I still sometimes think about the influence of these themes in sci-fi. Pretty nifty if I might say so.
Given your love of WoT I am surprised you have an issue with the pacing in Dune. But then, as you say, it's all subjective. Whilst I am no huge fan of the way Herbert wrote (can only imagine what someone like Kay or Rothfuss would do with this story) I can overlook it for the world building and plot.
Amazing how many later stories were so heavily influenced by Dune though.
I really like the new editing of this review, especially the bullet points added to the number scores. Great video
I am surprised Daniel is just now realizing that Frank Herbert's Fremen and Robert Jordan's Aiel are very similiar. Not to mention both authors being redundant descriptions that don't push the story forward.
For me. ... prose. the reason why many people love Dune. It's prose. The words Frank Herbert used. The way he told the story. His words are evocative and imaginative. It paints a picture in your mind. And maybe that's why it's too slow for you. But many love it for the way words were used. For me, its almost poetic. you won't see this style in today's writing. Too many of today's authors want to get there too fast. Herbert allows you to savor the journey.
To each his own I guess.
one only has to compare the prose of Frank to that of the prose of Brian and KJA....
I read Dune and loved it, but was confused why when I recommended it to friends, they REALLY couldnt get into it. This review explains that side quite well.
Which I think is where watching the movie first makes sense. To give them a sort of "big picture" view so when they hit slower parts they don't become discouraged.
I like the new editing decisions you’re making, especially with the rating visuals, but I’d suggest you keep the pros and cons on screen long enough to read them while the video plays and that you use a different font for your /10 that matches the clean, modern style of text you use for +/- better.
Frank Herbert was not a 'pure' storyteller, in so far as all he sought to do was tell the most engaging and compelling story he could just for its own sake. For Herbert, novel writing was a means to an end, that end being the discussion of a spectrum of themes in a speculative fiction environment. Dune is at one level a sprawling sci fi epic, but for Herbert that is secondary. Primarily, he wrote the Dune Saga to explore themes of how power, religion, economics and ecology interact to shape cultures and civilisations. One can readily read the Spice as an analogue for oil and Arrakis as a fictionalised and exaggerated version of the Middle East.
He was also writing a cautionary tale about the perils of charismatic leadership in various different incarnations, and that informed many of his characters. Just in the first book, we see several examples of how different styles of charismatic leadership can fail or have negative outcomes. As an example, Duke Leto the First is the type of a charismatic leader who is so personable, and through his personal magnetism and the value he places on those who follow him, inculcates such immense loyalty in his followers that they lose the capacity to view his actual ability to deal with his political and strategic circumstances objectively. Leto is easy to like and easy to be loyal to, but that doesn't mean he has the skills to navigate a political maze effectively or make the harder, more uncomfortable decisions a leader might be called upon to make. Leto says that the first step in avoiding a trap is seeing the trap. He sees that Arrakis is a trap... and walks right into it anyway, overestimating his ability to handle the threat of the snares put in place by Baron Harkonnen and Emperor Shaddam IV. Leto's charisma inspires blind loyalty in his followers, and he goes on to lead them to near total disaster. if it wasn't for the actions of Doctor Wellington Yueh trying to mitigate the harm he caused by selling the Atredies out to the Baron, Leto's entire bloodline and whole Noble House could very easily have ended at a stroke, principally due to his failure to handle the threat properly.
Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is a different type of harmful charismatic leader. In the books he actually finds the business of violence rather distasteful and doesn't want to see it most of the time, and yet despite this many people mistake him for a straightforward sadist, but his true threat as a leader is not violence but corruption. He is the sort of leader who whispers in the ears of those around them that it is OK to give in to their self destructive impulses, that they deserve to indulge their dark side. He controls the head of his own guards through enabling the man's addiction to a type of sonically activated narcotic called Samuta, and he encourages Emperor Shaddam's paranoia about Duke Leto's popularity being a threat to the Imperial Throne, and enables the Emperor's betrayal of the Duke by having the Imperial Sardukar elite disguised as Harkonnen troops so that the Emperor can maintain deniability of his involvement. Later on in the series, the now dead Baron's memory shade in Alia's mind deploys a similar tactic, manipulating Alia by stoking her paranoia and encouraging her to give in to the darker aspects of her personality.
Paul himself is another example of a dangerous type of charismatic leader, this time the religious, messianic figure. Paul finds that, despite his exceptional abilities, he can't control the consequences of his decision to assume the mantle of the prophesised messiah figure in Fremen religious beliefs, that prophecy being seeded into Fremen culture by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva. Paul is confronted with the truth that religious movements have a momentum of their own, and even the object of veneration within such a movement cannot necessarily control the direction of travel of the belief system. As a figure whose authority is derived from religious belief, Paul can unintentionally inspire blind allegiance and even outright fanaticism, manifesting in obvious negative outcomes like the Fremen Jihad, but also subtler harm, such as when Paul realises that the religious cult of personality that has grown up around him has slowly influenced the character even of a man as steadfast as Stilgar, and Paul feels that this process has denigrated Stilgar, turning him from a proud Fremen leader of a Sietch into just another true believer lacking independent agency.
All these charismatic leaders damage those around them or lead them to disaster in different ways, but the message Herbert wants to convey is the same in all cases - that charismatic leadership is dangerous because a person with charisma will likely to find it easier to accrue some form of power or other, but that charisma on its own in no way qualifies that person to wield that power to achieve the best outcome for society.
Gregory Greenwood-Nimmo Excellent analysis
@@TokyoBlue587 Thanks.
I was fortunate enough to have been able to grow up on Dune as a child. I haven't read it in a long time and am currently rereading it now and wow, it's so good. Being older, I can appreciate so many more things. While yes, there is criticisms on pacing and whatnot, I still find it an enjoyable read. The world is so rich and the message is so interesting that I can't help get engrossed in it.
Nice video, but I disagree. Dune is one of the most important novels ever written, regardless of genre. It examines the development of humanity over thousands of years. It looks at prophecy as a limiting act, not a liberating one. Dune forces us to look deeply into such topics as politics, religion and economics. Frank Herbert's audacity of vision stretches across millenia as he tries to imagine what humans may become and the forces that shaped that journey.
Yes, he is, at times a bit ponderous when it comes to description. I'm amazed at how much narative space he spends on Paul and Jessica's walk through the rocks just before their capture by the Fremen. Herbert is not that interested in action scenes. He tends to gloss over battles and fights. That might annoy some readers.
But this is a book about something. It is not just an action/adventure tale. It is not a space opera. Dune is an epic drama set on the scale of thousands of years. It examines the rise and fall of empires, religions and planets. Dune is, simply put, the greatest novel ever written.
None of what you said is in disagreement with his review.
Man you've made me so happy.
There's nothing i love better than hearing honest opinions on Dune. Because there's always a feeling of being overwhelmed by the book in them.
I first read dune when I was twelve and its pretty much scarred my personality, I can't seem to resist seeking out being overwhelmed, like I was with dune. I love it, its like reading the ocean. And the contrast with the dry setting is just powerful.
Thanks for the great review.
Have you read Hyperion? It's one of the few sci-fi series that tops dune in my opinion. Incredible world building, emotionally moving and just epic in scope.
Hyperion, hands down, is my #1 top sci-fi pick as well!
I'm so glad you read it again and reviewed it. I loved this book. I actually loved the way he moves with the story. I love the internal dialogue and the meditative explorations. There is also a lot of spirituality there. What a man Herbert was. The edition you have is gorgeous
Omg when he said "I know, I get it" he sounded 100% like merphy napier
I love more in-depth reviews, I also love to hear reviews that are conflicted, were its got strengths and weaknesses and your mileage will vary. when a review is just all love or hate I find that there could be good/bad qualities that are being missed, so bravo, great video I would like more like it!
I have trouble reading fiction, its hard for me (well, all expect the Harry Potter books, the exception to every rule?)
So I've been listening to the audio book of Dune (mostly in preperation of the movie and the roleplaying game (modiphius games)
I've come to the conclusion that Herbert's values and chosen perspectives may indicate he was a psychopath (my opinion)
I grew up around psychopaths so its not hard to spot,
Added note: psychopaths tend to think everyone else are stupid/naive,
I'm not attacking the book, just the way its written, its not my cup o tea
but if you like it have fun,
thats a little silly to think his a psychopathy
As a huge Dune fan, strong agree with the majority of it. It's why continuing in the series can really pay off. Herbert improves his story telling a lot. Children of Dune is leagues ahead in that regard, with God Emporer really showing off his improvements.
You should read the rest of the "Dune Trilogy." Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. It gets really weird after those books, but he completes his arc.
Thank you Daniel for giving Dune a second chance! This is why I respect you as a reviewer, you are willing to listen to people instead of just being stubborn. Love the channel
Just finished Dune and it was definitely dense but very worth it. Also I feel like i need to read the rest of the series, as I want more of this world. Will definitely reread in the future.
One thing I struggled to pick up on in my first couple readthroughs is that herbert is showing you the plot during book 1 through characters thoughts because he's easing you into the perspective of seeing the future.
Hey Dan,
Solid review. I’ll pick it up to prepare for the movie. Would love to see you review some of Octavia Butler’s work. A trend setter in Sci fi and fantasy. Thoughts!?
Dune is personally my favorite book of all time, but I still totally agree with your criticism of it. In my opinion the pacing and over explanation is really how Herbert tackled such big ideas with an unprecedented depth, so the weakness can be a strength if you're able to sit through it.
OMG i need that cover. Is so awesome!
Also i'm reading Dune at the moment and i'm loving it. Don't really agree with you that is hard to read? i think is actually pretty engaging and i have to force myself to put it down at times because i get so hook up on the story and i want to know how it progresses. I'm really liking Paul's arc and the worldbuilding.
I do agree with a couple of criticism though. He is redundant sometimes, and the text could drag on for a couple of pages repeting the same thing in different ways just to make a point that is clear after a just a couple of parragraphs. And i find the villains a bit over the top and cliché most of the time.
I didn't have problems regarding the betrayal plotline though. It makes sense within that world for characters to think and react to it the way they do.
However, I do think Jessica in particular gets dumbed down quite a bit after Paul and her scape to the desert and they are alone. Like i get Paul is getting super smart by that point, like god-level smart, but i didn't think it was necessary to make her look dumb compared to him to highlight his intelligence. She is presented to us from the beginning as a very intelligent and very resourceful person and keeping her that way during their interactions would have been much more interesting.
Other than that i think this is already one of my favorite sci-fi books.
I'm happy to see you revisit this. Books are touted as classics for a reason. Dune is a tough read, but I've never stopped thinking about it. I can't wait for the movie! That's a gorgeous copy.
Dont listen to this guy, Frank Herbert's Dune has an engaging story and he is in fact a great and smooth storyteller... Certainly more smooth than all the other writers he praises in this channel can dream to be, whose literal only trick in their bag is to normalize the weird sounding names they gave to fictional places and things by having the characters say them over and over again out loud like its no big deal.
(This gives the viewer a sense of immersion and is totally not an overused to death technique by almost every single fantasy book ever since the 1950's)
"The Sarlacs crossed the bridge of belanor as the Karks stared at them with anger. There had been long kept remorse in their hearts ever since the gutanor."
Shockingly, Dune takes a far more optimistic approach on the possibilities of humanity as the series steps forward. But the trials humanity goes through is rough.
Disagree entirely. Not sure how you can complain about pacing, repetition, or focus on things unnecessary to the plot and love the WoT series. Talk about pointless bloat. Dune is the LotR of sci-fi for a good reason. The world building is definitely the strongest part of the story, but pretty much all of the other criticisms of this are overblown.
I mean. When you already like sth you tend to suspend your disbelief and bare with the author more easily. He probably wasnt that intrigued by ths plot and therefore it was easier for him to be annoyed by ceratain things in the book, even if such things exist in other books he loves. I am currently reading Dune and have encounterwd none of what he has said, except mabey that some characters act dumb( although it is usually justified).
You're eye contact with the camera is really well managed. Been watching your videos for a while now and I'm just now realizing that it adds a layer of comfort and familiarity to your content.
the way Paul is dealing with fear has spoken to me again and again through the years and I return to it. The idea of meeting the fear head on and letting it pass through you is so healthy and good. It is immensely tough to actually do, but something about that just sticks with me.
Yeah like you have to recognize that fear and allow yourself to feel it in order to overcome it
It's a well-known technique in Buddhism, and Herbert was a Zen Buddhist. You 'dissolve emotions into their essence', which is flowing energy, through 'complete experience'.
I actually love getting your reviews on the Epic, Well Loved books because it really gives me a fuller understanding of the way you view a "great" book. I wasn't drawn into The Way of Kings like you were and I wondered why, but the more reviews I see you do with books I've also read, the more I can separate your personal taste in how a story unfolds from the more general appreciation for the ideas and structure of a book. Knowing that helps me know when a book you recommend will be something I personally need to read.