Just having listened to the AB comparison, there might be SLIGHTLY more upper mid-range in the B amp. I might just be looking for change where none exists, because there's no real difference. In a mix I absolutely could not identify which is which. Edit: Just heard the isolated parts, and I was right in that the B amp was hotter in the upper midrange. It's very noticeable when isolated, but live or in a studio mix nobody's gonna hear the amp sim and be like "HEY YOURE NOT USING A REAL AMP"
Yeah, that's the way I heard it as well. The clarity in the upper mid-range of the real Amp made it feel to me like somehow the sound was "lifting up."
it's crazy how visuals influence the perception. Blindly listening I cannot really say what's the difference beetween A and B in the mix, but with visuals now I'm "hearing" "more open top end on the real deal", "thicker midrange on VST plugin" etc. :D
Exactly my point. Listening in the mix there was a slight difference with B that I truly wouldn't care when I am mixing to change. Listening to it isolated blind it's still not a massive difference but put 2 different pictures in front of me and my brain focuses almost entirely on the differences in the highs and the pick attack. The brain fools us all.
I had this playing in the background while doing something else, I can't even really tell when you switch and like always your stuff sounds great. Listen blind and it just sounds great.
I would say that the amps lowend is more controlled while the plugin's lowend is rumbling but whit that said the plugin does an impressive job emulating the JJ, really cool!! Also - kiiiiller riffs!!
We've certainly come a long way, Jon. I remember the days of the little POD bean, and Crate combos were what we got in the SS realm. Seeing more and more professional touring artists using Fractal's and Helix setups for practicality proves that we're getting within the realm of comfort with SS and modeler's. I'm a tube purist first, but I do understand the logical aspect of digital rigs for tour. All in all it comes down to the in the room punch and feel. I guess being my age and my love for amps that tubes always stay near and dear to my heart. There's digital loud and then there's the push of air that powerful tube amps provide. A liveliness that is an overall experience. In the end, it's a great time to be a guitar player that's for sure. 🤘
One other aspect. Load boxes with IRs can make the guitar much more mix ready. Making the right choices with either modellers or amp Sims can also do the same. And that one thing is reduce time on mixing. Real amps, cabs, and mics don't. So those of us on a really small budget may want to go that route, especially if it is too hard to tell in a mix. For a live setup, faster sound check. May mean 2-3 more songs for a set if in an opening act, which to be honest, the vast majority of us will be in that category.
If i had $4000 laying around to buy the JJ100 i would totally do it, but i don’t so the Amped Flagship gets me 90% of the way and i’m so happy about it.
I have to say, the ML Sound Lab stuff is phenomenal. Even side by side, the sounds are almost exact and inseparable. ML Sound Lab software, is now my go to software. Go buy it!
Short answer… yes. It may not be an exact 100% match with the original amp, but often even with the real amp and cab, I struggle to get the recording to sound exactly like it does in the room. The mic type, position, and DI can all change the tone as well. So it’s a tedious process trying to get the recording to sound the same way it did live in the room. The amp simulations can often remove some of those variables and make it simpler.
You're the master of these comparisons! Always so so so close, you can't even say one is better than the other if you're unbiased, some might say a, some might say b. 🔥🔥🔥🔥
In the mix I really liked the plugin more. Also in the AB guitar alone comparsion they sounded really close. never thought that this day would happen, but it has. For me mixing since 2001 this is really impressive. BTW thanky for your excellent content!
I was really impressed in not easily being able to tell the difference in the begging test. I still love my tube amps for that response you get live, that I don't hear with modelers. They are close. But for some reason they do seems to be less responsive than a tube. The plugin also sounds a little darker. But seriously, not by much anymore. I don't if I would ever want to replace the tube amp to accept the weight of them as I get older. But I also am that guy who grew up in the 70's and 80's going to concerts, and what drew me in was that wall of sound amps you have seen on stage. Gong to a concert today seeing a modeler on the floor and a blank stage to me is incredibly.,,, well, BORING! There was a time the show took time to set up, yes it cost money, some in the millions of dollars. But damn they were so memorable to this very day. I think of new concerts with no stage settings and my mind just goes over them. But watching the fog roll out on stage, fire shooting up in the air, lights flashing and lasers pointing, spotlights, a wall of sound (even if some cabinets were empty) and a badass band rocking the crowd blowing your balls off! No modelers to me can replace that to me. But for studio, home practice and I can see they have their place and I used the old modelers myself. I have been out of it for a few years, and the newer stuff I don't have and is new to me again. But I'll keep my tube amps too as I get back into it. Great video though!
With the new cygnus update on the fractal unit today I'd love to hear some more comparison videos between the AXEFX and the real amps from you. You do a great job with these videos John. Thank you
Very well done as always. The plugin did have an extra low mid but sounded almost identical to the real amp....And yes I se both tube amps and modelling and they both have their moments in my recordings.
Both sound great John! Awesome comparison! I’m in the amps and Sims living happily together camp. I have a stack of tube amps plus plug-ins and an axe effects 3.
B sounded a bit crisper and tighter, but A had clearer arpeggios/distortion. I honestly thought B was the Amp Sim, so I was surprised, but this was a great comparison!
Absolutely brutal sound. Flagship is incredible, both in sound and feel, and JJ Lead channel might just be the best metal amp emulation out there. It's a steal at its current price.
Before watching the reveal, my guess is A is the real amp. It sounds a tad more non-linear in the way it behaves (IMO in a good way), miniscule difference tho. Thanks for the test!
The plugin sounded bigger but more compressed with slightly less note definition, where the amp let the single notes pop up a little more but felt slightly smaller. The character was very well translated i.m.o Good job 👍
I feel like there is a bit more "body" in the tube amp, compared to the plugin. And this matches my own experience with plugins vs all my own real amps. However, I honestly only really notice that in the isolated clips - in the mix they work equally well. "Work" is different from "sound *exactly* the same" btw :) Great video, I'm becoming more and more a fan of plugins myself these days...
Well that was awesome. You have a great ear. I got it wrong. A testimony to your ability to dial in amp tone. With everything you have experienced in amp tone thru the years and all the amps you own here's the million dollar question. If you could only own one amp for the rest of your life what would it be? Can't wait to hear the answer. Thanks 👍
Honestly They're both so similar sounding I wouldn't mind the plugin. In general, where sims are still lacking (sometimes) is complex harmonics and a...quicker, more dynamic feel. Marshall sims etc. But there's some excellent stuff out there now. I love the physicality of dialing in the amp, no license managers, no computers... just me and the gear. But I'm primarily a plugin/sim user and am quite happy. It's certainly super easy to switch out virtual pedals and cabs or the entire chain with a few clicks. I really dig that. So in short, plugins can replace amps overall, but not in every situation. And you can never replace a cranked up tube amp in the room and the ability to put a strong drink on the cabinet. Lol. Purely sonically though it's damn close these days. Ps: Gotta check out the Otto Audio II II II II plugin if you like extremely detailed distortion modeling. It's one of my faves. Great vid as always Jon!
Question, do you find any differences in latency when playing the Sim vs the amp? They do sound very close. I did notice that A had a bit more low end dynamics than B, but before the reveal I didn't know if the wider dynamic range of A was from the tube amp or from the Sim that simulated the larger amp... I did get a clue when you mentioned that the Sim was based off of the EL34s, but it was just too hard to be sure. There's definitely justifications for having both, as you mentioned. I can definitely see why people would go for Sim, cause they just sound so convincing. I just grew up on amps, and there's just something about standing in front of an amp, and feeling the speaker pushing air, physically dialing in your tone, the directness of it all... I don't know, maybe there's a bit of romanticizing amps on my part, but I just connect with them in a way I can't with any piece of simulation, but that's not to say I don't like sims or don't think they should exist. I generally prefer analog stuff in my life, even things like wrist watches (though I recognize the superior convenience and accuracy of digital watches)... Something interesting in the analog watch world is (because similar discussion happen about analog vs digital), you are probably not going to covet the piece of digital technology you have now in 20 years, where as a good quality mechanical watch with still be a desired thing and working perfectly (if well maintained) for a life time. I know the JJ Jr. will still be a great piece of equipment in decades to come, but I do question how the sim will hold up in decades with updated operating systems etc. or if it's just a throw away thing in a few years as it gets updated, like the Iphone. I think that's what I like about amps, they don't feel like throw away items to me, and even it newer models come out, the older one's still feel like they have their place, and people generally like old amps, old guitars etc... I rarely see people coveting old digital software... I don't know, maybe I'm just too romantic about this stuff.
Most audio interfaces (even cheap ones) will absolutely give you a low enough latency where you won't be able to feel the latency. Only way to notice it is if you're switching back and forth between an analog rig and a digital rig. Even then the difference will not be a problem.
Interesting, I liked A better in the mix. The real amp sounded a little bit more like it sat on top of the mix, because it didn't glue as nicely in the low end area. I'm sure this could be tweaked though. I'd be happy with the plugin in this case
Without seeing the results, A has a bit more rumble in the low end, B either has more sparkle in the top end or the lack of low end that A was producing causing the same effect in my ears. Both are great. I actually prefer the ML version to the modeled one in Helix.
Amp sims have their usefulness for sure especially in recording and mixing scenarios, but as a guitar player, nothing can beat just plugging into my ENGL and playing through a cab for me.
100% agree. Through a production setup, or even for FOH applications, a modern amp sim is perfectly adequate and practical. But when playing in my room, or in a rehearsal, nothing beats the feeling of my amp (also an ENGL) and cab (from a player's perspective). That feeling doesn't translate to monitors, phones, or to a record. It may have to do with the fact that a physical cabinet radiates sound with a frequency-dependent 3D directivity, that interacts with the different surfaces of the room and reaches your ears at different angles and phases. That does not fit in a single capture point (mic o IR). Maybe a binaural IR could do better in that regard ...
Wow that is first friend man sim to sound that good. Especially Jerry's amp sim. Question if I was using that but then wanted a clean sound while playing a part in a song let's say. How would I do that? New to this digital sim scene
I think the general guitar player would be very happy using plugins. Price point, the closeness of tone to the real amp and ease of use convenience are all big plusses for the plugin. Gear snobs and audiophiles maybe slightly more inclined to want the real thing. The plugin sounds slightly compressed and a tad rolled back on that lower mid push/beef that is found in real amps. But the tone difference is subtle in my opinion, so much so that I would be completely satisfied with using plugins like ML Sound Lab or NDSP.
After watching these amazing a/b videos and the sounds you get out of both, what makes you still a fan of tube amps? Is it just the "item" or fun collectable part of the deal? If you can get all the sounds you need from plugins I bet you could get all kinds of cool stuff by selling the amps.
I very slightly preferred B, it sounded like there was a presence knob turned just a little higher by comparison (and I'm a fan of (ab)using that Presence knob). But it was soooo close, it's splitting hairs anymore.
To my mind an amp sim manufacturer who can propose the best cooperation agreement can usually provide an amp sim wich can beat real amps. Thank for including isolated tracks without EQ.
In a mix it's hard to tell - in the isolated A/B test, the real amp is more "open" sounding and has slightly less hiss. My guess is that it has a better playing feel also.
John, out of curiosity, why not do ABC test, with C being the plugin EQd to replicate the amp? We can clearly hear the plugin doesn't have the highs that the amp does in solo trackings, but this could be replicated with an eq
Great video, they sound the same to my ears. By the way was wondering. Are there any amp creators out there with the goal of making a new tube amp sound(s)? From what I've heard all amp circuits are variations of Fender and Marshall that have been around for at least 50 years.
A real amp has better/more natural highs and presence, the axis of what I call "air" in the sound. This Flagship seems to have the same affliction as all the amp sims I've tried, when you want more of that presence, clarity in the sound you get it as a side effect of more high frequency noise/distortion. Real amplifiers generate it much more naturally, the sound is bright, clear, simply. This is how I still see the advantage of real amplifiers over simulations.
Hey Jon, another great vid. I think all of these sound great, and I tried the flagship plugin and its actually one of my favorites. I usually use my axefx, and I'm happy with the tones I can get from it, but I haven't had a "real" amp in a while, in terms of feel is it worth it playing at home or na? The JJ is top of my list, love all your videos with it.
They do sound similar but the plugin needed a lot of tweaking as seen at the end to emulate the sound of the real amp. I have the JJ Jr and the plugin and I can tell you the plugin without all these settings has a different voice indeed. The real amp has better low end definition, better mids and beautiful harmonics in the highs which the plugin doesn't. Not to mention it handles pedals differently if you use it as a pedal platform. I still choose to use the amp for recording but that's me.
I am listening to this on decent studio monitors (Kali IN-8) and honestly I can only hear the SLIGHTEST difference between the two. The real amp was just a little hotter in the presence region. But just barely. And I would be hard pressed to say which one sounded "better". Amp sims have certainly made HUGE leaps in sound quality. As have cab IRs...which is a MUCH bigger part of the overall sound in my opinion.
I write this after listening to the blind test but before watching the result. Both sound good. If you don't put A and B, I won't know when you switch from amp to ML. So, my guess at this point is A is real amp, B is amp sim. My reason, this particular amp model from ML sound lab tends to be dark sounding. Edit: after watching the result. Turn out I'm wrong. My conclusion from this test, as long as I never listen to a real amp directly with my own ears. I will never know the different between real vs amp sim.
The tube amp does sound a little brighter and more "present"...so I'm wondering if simply bumping the Presence knob on the plugin up a hair above zero would make them sound identical.
I do feel like both sides will always have their place. If you have a great amp head, use it. You will get more mileage by either using different cabs or use a loadbox and add a cab impulse. If you have a client that walks in with a Line 6 spider amp or something similar to that, use an amp sim or whatever great amp head you have at your disposal. On a more consumer standpoint, what matters the most is if the song sounds great to them. Not many consumers will know the ins and outs of recording, amp sims vs real amps, samples, and all of that stuff. If you take a listen to other great amp sims out there that has came out in the last five years, it's pretty damn close. There's also the money-factor into this. Would you want to spend $3000 on an amp or $300 or less on an amp sim model version of it and get pretty damn close to the original model?
I have a very important question.Which of your mini amps would llast with the drummer during rehearsal.I mean 20w amps.Like PRS MT 15 which I have.If they can't cope are they good only for practising and silent recording?What about Fridman?
I couldn't afford to have as many tube amps, or move them around. With such an small difference margin (narrowing as we speak surely) and some tweaking, i would go with plugins for every situation as long as a decent PA and monitor system is available. For a fancy dinner i would take the tube amp, but for the everyday beer i would go with the plugin version. Maybe someday i could afford to have the real thing and play it in a room... but that's when a don't need one of my kidneys anymore.
Have you used the software amp models into a clean poweramp and into a cab? I’ve been thinking about getting a SD power stage 170 into a 2X12 instead of playing through studio monitors. Just to have a more amp in the room sound and feel. Just curious if you have done something like this and what were your thoughts.
I do this into a 2x12 v30 cab.. tried running out from computer to rx return of Amp1 Mercury, Blackstar HT20, HK Stompan, and modded MV50 Clean (fx loop mod). they all sound great but tbh my fave is the Vox!!!!. Amp1 close 2nd, and Stompan is a little hard to dial in. great for jamming!
The amp sounded more "boxy", while the real one sounded more "foward", in "front of me". How can I make the plugin sound more "foward", "in front of me"? Which medium frequency should I increasse in EQ?
if they can live together on the same planet, then maybe we can too.......As i was listening and trying to discern which was which....i was hoping that B was the amp cuz it sounded a little better to ME (i use a JJ Jr). Whew!
if I ignore the fact that JJ has set presence much higher than ML 🙂 then I would say ML has clearer strings separation and much more compressed sound which is understandable because of digital emulation. I think the benefit of JJ would be noticeable once you grab the guitar and start messing around with tone. You can't beat dynamic of good tube amp. There is just quality in tone which makes tube amp still relevant for those who appreciate real connectivity with guitar wood and pickups.
Oh boy. This one is tough... I'm gonna go with A. Is real amp B. Is amp sim The chickachicka's seem to have a more natural sound and vibe to them. But this is the only thing I'm basing my guess off.
So wait. A. Was the sim? Holy cow thats unbelievable. I'm really impressed with the way amp sims have been developing. I gotta say, real amps will always have a place in the world imo. But I do see sims as the future. And I can't wait to see how they will inevitably become combined. I mean we sorta have that already with the kemper. But there's still growth to come. Like touch screen front panel tube amps where the whole front will change based on what sim you have loaded up. The screen will look like a recto if thats what you have loaded or an evh. And the controls all work like normal. But its just a screen on a tube power amp shaped like a standard amp head. Its coming yall. Just a matter of time before someone with enough money develops it.
Damn close. But do not forget, if there were no great real tube amps as sound orientation there would be no great modeling sounds at all. For this reason I will stick to the traditional real deal.😎
I think the real amp sims discussion it's not about sound but playing sensations and pick response, and how much "adaptation" does it require for the guitarist.
In a mix... pretty much identical indeed. Isolated... there is a crazy difference in the high end. Listening in my Beyerdynamic DT 900 X studio headphones, I can clearly hear that the real amp has so much more high frequencies than the plugin (the plugin sounds like it has low pass filter applied to it, cutting the top end completely). Is it a bad thing? Not really, as you would either not hear these frequencies in a mix anyway, or even cut them off completely to allow more space for cymbals and other sounds that would benefit from these. What I don't get though, is why the knobs are always that much different in the plugins, especially considering the fact that amp modelling is supposed to model every component and react like the real thing. It's just weird that you had to drop the Presence to 0 in the plugin, while it's a little bit above the middle on the real amp. The other way around with the mids (maxed out on the plugin, while straight in the middle on ther real amp). I understand that these are not the same version of the JJ, but still weird lol. Although, I can make ML Sound Lab plugins sounds pretty much identical to Tonex captures of the same amp.. which is very impressive! I did the same with some Nembrini plugins (including the Dumble ODS), and match them to the point where I couldn't tell which one was the real capture when switching with my midi footswitch. So yeah, ''recording'' using a real tube amp became pretty much undesirable in 2023.
listening on studio monitors, in the mix they sound identical save yourself $1400! if any difference i'm not hearing, that difference is not worth the $$$. btw i own Flagship 2.0 my fave amp sim by far! very cool riffs as always. what a time to be alive
They sounded pretty close here but there's always room for improvement. Perhaps I should have dialed in more presence for example. After an hour of tweaking or so at a certain point enough is enough. Lol
Love the JJ. Truly an amp that feels like two amps combined. I wish the guitar community as a whole would finally move on from the “t00bz are bettur!!!” mentality. It only creates a silly stigma that holds back innovation, creativity, and experimentation when people hear that.
Presence on Flagship plug-in seems to me too low (compared to the amp), maybe this has some impact on sound: in fact seems to me the plugin is to dark or a little bit "flubby" compared to real amp. That's my 2 cent.
I would love to have the real deal but the sims in term of practicallity win except for playing live. Though... even that is arguable. Regardless I don't care which is the real thing it is so close that it simply doesn't matter. And for me who unfortunately mainly working in front of the computer all the time the sim is more practical.
I have to use my really abstract term: The real JJ sounds much more "3D" than the ML sim. This depth/complex/3d/WhatEverItIs the axe fx has somewhat, but these ML sims just lack it IMO. They are still really really good and really cheap for what they are.
B sounds better to me, bigger low end, more dynamic and punchy too. Close tonally but I like B more. Wouldnt be surprised if this is the plugin as bigger low end and more dynamics are more what I associate with 100W power sections and not EL84's.
OK, just got to the isolated section and the real amp sounds WAY better to me. ML sounds boxed off and a bit weird. Real amp is more open and bigger, ML is flat and mushy.
I think what gives away the real amp usually I'd there is this tiny element that always sounds just a little out of control. That little bit of randomness. Not even better neccessarily just different.
There's a drastic roll-off at around 6 khz in the plugin version, which makes it muddier when compared to the real deal. Not really noticeable in the mix, very noticeable and annoying when isolated.
Yeah, it's definitely noticeable...but considering the Presence on the plugin is set a zero, I bet you could totally "fix" that by setting it a little higher.
There's a difference in how a tube amp and the modelings react and feel when playing them. The tube amp reacts as it does in a natural and almost living manner from the real components in it's build. It does that because that's how it does it. It's not copying anything. And the modeling emulation while they can sonically emulate the overall tone and some of reaction and feel, it's still not natural. It's synthetic. Good. But synthetic still. To me anyways. I notice it less playing rhythm and slamming chords, but much more playing lead and bending. And that way of reaction and feel effect the way I play. I enjoy my FM3 and the different amp sims I have in my computer, but I'm not getting rid of my tube amps. And plan to buy more instead of more modelers.
Just having listened to the AB comparison, there might be SLIGHTLY more upper mid-range in the B amp. I might just be looking for change where none exists, because there's no real difference. In a mix I absolutely could not identify which is which.
Edit: Just heard the isolated parts, and I was right in that the B amp was hotter in the upper midrange. It's very noticeable when isolated, but live or in a studio mix nobody's gonna hear the amp sim and be like "HEY YOURE NOT USING A REAL AMP"
Yeah, that's the way I heard it as well. The clarity in the upper mid-range of the real Amp made it feel to me like somehow the sound was "lifting up."
Thanks so much for the awesome video Jon! Guys if you're liking these tones here get the free trial and try them out for yourself.
it's crazy how visuals influence the perception. Blindly listening I cannot really say what's the difference beetween A and B in the mix, but with visuals now I'm "hearing" "more open top end on the real deal", "thicker midrange on VST plugin" etc. :D
Exactly my point. Listening in the mix there was a slight difference with B that I truly wouldn't care when I am mixing to change. Listening to it isolated blind it's still not a massive difference but put 2 different pictures in front of me and my brain focuses almost entirely on the differences in the highs and the pick attack. The brain fools us all.
@@joejohnson8966 you can hear "more open top end on the real deal" and "thicker (muddier) midrange on VST plugin" because you are not deaf
@@LAPD92 and thank God for that 🙏
The amp was a bit brighter which brought out those upper harmonics more clearly. Both were excellent tones.
I had this playing in the background while doing something else, I can't even really tell when you switch and like always your stuff sounds great. Listen blind and it just sounds great.
I would say that the amps lowend is more controlled while the plugin's lowend is rumbling but whit that said the plugin does an impressive job emulating the JJ, really cool!! Also - kiiiiller riffs!!
Outstanding. Closed my eyes. Couldn't hear a meaningful difference. Bravo Miko.
We've certainly come a long way, Jon. I remember the days of the little POD bean, and Crate combos were what we got in the SS realm. Seeing more and more professional touring artists using Fractal's and Helix setups for practicality proves that we're getting within the realm of comfort with SS and modeler's. I'm a tube purist first, but I do understand the logical aspect of digital rigs for tour. All in all it comes down to the in the room punch and feel. I guess being my age and my love for amps that tubes always stay near and dear to my heart. There's digital loud and then there's the push of air that powerful tube amps provide. A liveliness that is an overall experience. In the end, it's a great time to be a guitar player that's for sure. 🤘
One other aspect. Load boxes with IRs can make the guitar much more mix ready. Making the right choices with either modellers or amp Sims can also do the same. And that one thing is reduce time on mixing. Real amps, cabs, and mics don't. So those of us on a really small budget may want to go that route, especially if it is too hard to tell in a mix. For a live setup, faster sound check. May mean 2-3 more songs for a set if in an opening act, which to be honest, the vast majority of us will be in that category.
If i had $4000 laying around to buy the JJ100 i would totally do it, but i don’t so the Amped Flagship gets me 90% of the way and i’m so happy about it.
I have to say, the ML Sound Lab stuff is phenomenal. Even side by side, the sounds are almost exact and inseparable. ML Sound Lab software, is now my go to software.
Go buy it!
Always a fan of your work bro.. thanks for doing what you for the community.
Short answer… yes. It may not be an exact 100% match with the original amp, but often even with the real amp and cab, I struggle to get the recording to sound exactly like it does in the room. The mic type, position, and DI can all change the tone as well. So it’s a tedious process trying to get the recording to sound the same way it did live in the room. The amp simulations can often remove some of those variables and make it simpler.
You're 100% right about that. For sure!
You’ll never get two identical model amps with the same settings to sound exactly the same either.
Thanks! Just got this head to record direct line and this was great to watch.
They are so close. Like, VERY close. Thanks for the demo !
You're the master of these comparisons! Always so so so close, you can't even say one is better than the other if you're unbiased, some might say a, some might say b. 🔥🔥🔥🔥
In the mix I really liked the plugin more. Also in the AB guitar alone comparsion they sounded really close. never thought that this day would happen, but it has. For me mixing since 2001 this is really impressive. BTW thanky for your excellent content!
I was really impressed in not easily being able to tell the difference in the begging test. I still love my tube amps for that response you get live, that I don't hear with modelers. They are close. But for some reason they do seems to be less responsive than a tube. The plugin also sounds a little darker. But seriously, not by much anymore. I don't if I would ever want to replace the tube amp to accept the weight of them as I get older. But I also am that guy who grew up in the 70's and 80's going to concerts, and what drew me in was that wall of sound amps you have seen on stage. Gong to a concert today seeing a modeler on the floor and a blank stage to me is incredibly.,,, well, BORING! There was a time the show took time to set up, yes it cost money, some in the millions of dollars. But damn they were so memorable to this very day. I think of new concerts with no stage settings and my mind just goes over them. But watching the fog roll out on stage, fire shooting up in the air, lights flashing and lasers pointing, spotlights, a wall of sound (even if some cabinets were empty) and a badass band rocking the crowd blowing your balls off! No modelers to me can replace that to me. But for studio, home practice and I can see they have their place and I used the old modelers myself. I have been out of it for a few years, and the newer stuff I don't have and is new to me again. But I'll keep my tube amps too as I get back into it. Great video though!
Dude, I love the track. If it's yours congrats!
With the new cygnus update on the fractal unit today I'd love to hear some more comparison videos between the AXEFX and the real amps from you. You do a great job with these videos John. Thank you
Very well done as always. The plugin did have an extra low mid but sounded almost identical to the real amp....And yes I se both tube amps and modelling and they both have their moments in my recordings.
Both sound great John! Awesome comparison! I’m in the amps and Sims living happily together camp. I have a stack of tube amps plus plug-ins and an axe effects 3.
Spitting distance. Nice job!
B sounded a bit crisper and tighter, but A had clearer arpeggios/distortion. I honestly thought B was the Amp Sim, so I was surprised, but this was a great comparison!
Same!
Absolutely brutal sound. Flagship is incredible, both in sound and feel, and JJ Lead channel might just be the best metal amp emulation out there. It's a steal at its current price.
Could you please tell us how close is the feel to the actual amp, Sir? I don't have the real amp so I can't compare.
Before watching the reveal, my guess is A is the real amp. It sounds a tad more non-linear in the way it behaves (IMO in a good way), miniscule difference tho. Thanks for the test!
I'll be damned. Still hearing the same results after the reveal.
I've read a few comments first, apparently confused A with B and thought A would be the real one with the "more open top end and less muddy bottom" 😂
Just got to say...Love the Iron Man Sweatshirt!!
The plugin sounded bigger but more compressed with slightly less note definition, where the amp let the single notes pop up a little more but felt slightly smaller. The character was very well translated i.m.o
Good job 👍
I feel like there is a bit more "body" in the tube amp, compared to the plugin. And this matches my own experience with plugins vs all my own real amps. However, I honestly only really notice that in the isolated clips - in the mix they work equally well. "Work" is different from "sound *exactly* the same" btw :) Great video, I'm becoming more and more a fan of plugins myself these days...
Well that was awesome. You have a great ear. I got it wrong. A testimony to your ability to dial in amp tone. With everything you have experienced in amp tone thru the years and all the amps you own here's the million dollar question. If you could only own one amp for the rest of your life what would it be? Can't wait to hear the answer. Thanks 👍
great man!
how much do u usually lowcut all guitars? 50? 80? 100?
Hey Jon, just wanted to say congrats on Ik using your review as a promo video! A famous producer in the future? Move over Mutt! Lol Cheers
That's great and you definitely need to check some Audio Assault and Nembrini stuff, imo are better than ML sound and had stereo routing
Honestly They're both so similar sounding I wouldn't mind the plugin.
In general, where sims are still lacking (sometimes) is complex harmonics and a...quicker, more dynamic feel. Marshall sims etc. But there's some excellent stuff out there now.
I love the physicality of dialing in the amp, no license managers, no computers... just me and the gear. But I'm primarily a plugin/sim user and am quite happy. It's certainly super easy to switch out virtual pedals and cabs or the entire chain with a few clicks. I really dig that. So in short, plugins can replace amps overall, but not in every situation. And you can never replace a cranked up tube amp in the room and the ability to put a strong drink on the cabinet. Lol. Purely sonically though it's damn close these days.
Ps: Gotta check out the Otto Audio II II II II plugin if you like extremely detailed distortion modeling. It's one of my faves.
Great vid as always Jon!
Question, do you find any differences in latency when playing the Sim vs the amp? They do sound very close. I did notice that A had a bit more low end dynamics than B, but before the reveal I didn't know if the wider dynamic range of A was from the tube amp or from the Sim that simulated the larger amp... I did get a clue when you mentioned that the Sim was based off of the EL34s, but it was just too hard to be sure. There's definitely justifications for having both, as you mentioned. I can definitely see why people would go for Sim, cause they just sound so convincing. I just grew up on amps, and there's just something about standing in front of an amp, and feeling the speaker pushing air, physically dialing in your tone, the directness of it all... I don't know, maybe there's a bit of romanticizing amps on my part, but I just connect with them in a way I can't with any piece of simulation, but that's not to say I don't like sims or don't think they should exist. I generally prefer analog stuff in my life, even things like wrist watches (though I recognize the superior convenience and accuracy of digital watches)... Something interesting in the analog watch world is (because similar discussion happen about analog vs digital), you are probably not going to covet the piece of digital technology you have now in 20 years, where as a good quality mechanical watch with still be a desired thing and working perfectly (if well maintained) for a life time. I know the JJ Jr. will still be a great piece of equipment in decades to come, but I do question how the sim will hold up in decades with updated operating systems etc. or if it's just a throw away thing in a few years as it gets updated, like the Iphone. I think that's what I like about amps, they don't feel like throw away items to me, and even it newer models come out, the older one's still feel like they have their place, and people generally like old amps, old guitars etc... I rarely see people coveting old digital software... I don't know, maybe I'm just too romantic about this stuff.
Most audio interfaces (even cheap ones) will absolutely give you a low enough latency where you won't be able to feel the latency. Only way to notice it is if you're switching back and forth between an analog rig and a digital rig. Even then the difference will not be a problem.
Interesting, I liked A better in the mix.
The real amp sounded a little bit more like it sat on top of the mix, because it didn't glue as nicely in the low end area. I'm sure this could be tweaked though.
I'd be happy with the plugin in this case
Without seeing the results, A has a bit more rumble in the low end, B either has more sparkle in the top end or the lack of low end that A was producing causing the same effect in my ears. Both are great. I actually prefer the ML version to the modeled one in Helix.
Amp sims have their usefulness for sure especially in recording and mixing scenarios, but as a guitar player, nothing can beat just plugging into my ENGL and playing through a cab for me.
100% agree. Through a production setup, or even for FOH applications, a modern amp sim is perfectly adequate and practical. But when playing in my room, or in a rehearsal, nothing beats the feeling of my amp (also an ENGL) and cab (from a player's perspective). That feeling doesn't translate to monitors, phones, or to a record. It may have to do with the fact that a physical cabinet radiates sound with a frequency-dependent 3D directivity, that interacts with the different surfaces of the room and reaches your ears at different angles and phases. That does not fit in a single capture point (mic o IR). Maybe a binaural IR could do better in that regard ...
Terry Similar! Both Sound Great!🤘🏻
Wow that is first friend man sim to sound that good. Especially Jerry's amp sim. Question if I was using that but then wanted a clean sound while playing a part in a song let's say. How would I do that? New to this digital sim scene
I think the general guitar player would be very happy using plugins. Price point, the closeness of tone to the real amp and ease of use convenience are all big plusses for the plugin. Gear snobs and audiophiles maybe slightly more inclined to want the real thing. The plugin sounds slightly compressed and a tad rolled back on that lower mid push/beef that is found in real amps.
But the tone difference is subtle in my opinion, so much so that I would be completely satisfied with using plugins like ML Sound Lab or NDSP.
After watching these amazing a/b videos and the sounds you get out of both, what makes you still a fan of tube amps? Is it just the "item" or fun collectable part of the deal? If you can get all the sounds you need from plugins I bet you could get all kinds of cool stuff by selling the amps.
A has less of air in it, I think that's the plugin. Right? They sound so good, both, I wouldn't mind any on the record :D
I very slightly preferred B, it sounded like there was a presence knob turned just a little higher by comparison (and I'm a fan of (ab)using that Presence knob). But it was soooo close, it's splitting hairs anymore.
To my mind an amp sim manufacturer who can propose the best cooperation agreement can usually provide an amp sim wich can beat real amps. Thank for including isolated tracks without EQ.
In a mix it's hard to tell - in the isolated A/B test, the real amp is more "open" sounding and has slightly less hiss. My guess is that it has a better playing feel also.
Would you mind sharing what kind of guitar and more specifically what kind of pickup you used?
John, out of curiosity, why not do ABC test, with C being the plugin EQd to replicate the amp? We can clearly hear the plugin doesn't have the highs that the amp does in solo trackings, but this could be replicated with an eq
Great video, they sound the same to my ears. By the way was wondering. Are there any amp creators out there with the goal of making a new tube amp sound(s)? From what I've heard all amp circuits are variations of Fender and Marshall that have been around for at least 50 years.
A real amp has better/more natural highs and presence, the axis of what I call "air" in the sound. This Flagship seems to have the same affliction as all the amp sims I've tried, when you want more of that presence, clarity in the sound you get it as a side effect of more high frequency noise/distortion. Real amplifiers generate it much more naturally, the sound is bright, clear, simply. This is how I still see the advantage of real amplifiers over simulations.
I liked A more, you just saved me 2k. Thanks. :-)
Awesome 👍👍👍 comparison
Hey Jon, another great vid. I think all of these sound great, and I tried the flagship plugin and its actually one of my favorites. I usually use my axefx, and I'm happy with the tones I can get from it, but I haven't had a "real" amp in a while, in terms of feel is it worth it playing at home or na? The JJ is top of my list, love all your videos with it.
They do sound similar but the plugin needed a lot of tweaking as seen at the end to emulate the sound of the real amp. I have the JJ Jr and the plugin and I can tell you the plugin without all these settings has a different voice indeed. The real amp has better low end definition, better mids and beautiful harmonics in the highs which the plugin doesn't. Not to mention it handles pedals differently if you use it as a pedal platform. I still choose to use the amp for recording but that's me.
I am listening to this on decent studio monitors (Kali IN-8) and honestly I can only hear the SLIGHTEST difference between the two. The real amp was just a little hotter in the presence region. But just barely. And I would be hard pressed to say which one sounded "better". Amp sims have certainly made HUGE leaps in sound quality. As have cab IRs...which is a MUCH bigger part of the overall sound in my opinion.
I write this after listening to the blind test but before watching the result. Both sound good. If you don't put A and B, I won't know when you switch from amp to ML. So, my guess at this point is A is real amp, B is amp sim. My reason, this particular amp model from ML sound lab tends to be dark sounding.
Edit: after watching the result. Turn out I'm wrong.
My conclusion from this test, as long as I never listen to a real amp directly with my own ears. I will never know the different between real vs amp sim.
The tube amp does sound a little brighter and more "present"...so I'm wondering if simply bumping the Presence knob on the plugin up a hair above zero would make them sound identical.
I do feel like both sides will always have their place. If you have a great amp head, use it. You will get more mileage by either using different cabs or use a loadbox and add a cab impulse. If you have a client that walks in with a Line 6 spider amp or something similar to that, use an amp sim or whatever great amp head you have at your disposal. On a more consumer standpoint, what matters the most is if the song sounds great to them. Not many consumers will know the ins and outs of recording, amp sims vs real amps, samples, and all of that stuff. If you take a listen to other great amp sims out there that has came out in the last five years, it's pretty damn close. There's also the money-factor into this. Would you want to spend $3000 on an amp or $300 or less on an amp sim model version of it and get pretty damn close to the original model?
What did you listen through when tracking? The real amp or the sim? And what feels better?
People talk about the top end giving it away but I think the palm mutes do.
I have a very important question.Which of your mini amps would llast with the drummer during rehearsal.I mean 20w amps.Like PRS MT 15 which I have.If they can't cope are they good only for practising and silent recording?What about Fridman?
As seen in Mendel bij de Leij tests, they can. Tonex is pretty damn 👍
I couldn't afford to have as many tube amps, or move them around. With such an small difference margin (narrowing as we speak surely) and some tweaking, i would go with plugins for every situation as long as a decent PA and monitor system is available. For a fancy dinner i would take the tube amp, but for the everyday beer i would go with the plugin version.
Maybe someday i could afford to have the real thing and play it in a room... but that's when a don't need one of my kidneys anymore.
Have you used the software amp models into a clean poweramp and into a cab? I’ve been thinking about getting a SD power stage 170 into a 2X12 instead of playing through studio monitors. Just to have a more amp in the room sound and feel. Just curious if you have done something like this and what were your thoughts.
I do this into a 2x12 v30 cab.. tried running out from computer to rx return of Amp1 Mercury, Blackstar HT20, HK Stompan, and modded MV50 Clean (fx loop mod). they all sound great but tbh my fave is the Vox!!!!. Amp1 close 2nd, and Stompan is a little hard to dial in. great for jamming!
Didn’t even need to hear B to recognize A as the digital one... but still nice plug-in.
The amp sounded more "boxy", while the real one sounded more "foward", in "front of me".
How can I make the plugin sound more "foward", "in front of me"? Which medium frequency should I increasse in EQ?
Really close! B is brighter than A so I think B is the sim
if they can live together on the same planet, then maybe we can too.......As i was listening and trying to discern which was which....i was hoping that B was the amp cuz it sounded a little better to ME (i use a JJ Jr). Whew!
if I ignore the fact that JJ has set presence much higher than ML 🙂 then I would say ML has clearer strings separation and much more compressed sound which is understandable because of digital emulation. I think the benefit of JJ would be noticeable once you grab the guitar and start messing around with tone. You can't beat dynamic of good tube amp. There is just quality in tone which makes tube amp still relevant for those who appreciate real connectivity with guitar wood and pickups.
Oh boy. This one is tough... I'm gonna go with
A. Is real amp
B. Is amp sim
The chickachicka's seem to have a more natural sound and vibe to them. But this is the only thing I'm basing my guess off.
So wait. A. Was the sim? Holy cow thats unbelievable. I'm really impressed with the way amp sims have been developing.
I gotta say, real amps will always have a place in the world imo. But I do see sims as the future. And I can't wait to see how they will inevitably become combined. I mean we sorta have that already with the kemper. But there's still growth to come. Like touch screen front panel tube amps where the whole front will change based on what sim you have loaded up. The screen will look like a recto if thats what you have loaded or an evh. And the controls all work like normal. But its just a screen on a tube power amp shaped like a standard amp head. Its coming yall. Just a matter of time before someone with enough money develops it.
Damn close. But do not forget, if there were no great real tube amps as sound orientation there would be no great modeling sounds at all. For this reason I will stick to the traditional real deal.😎
Three cheers for real amps! It sounds better
I think the real amp sims discussion it's not about sound but playing sensations and pick response, and how much "adaptation" does it require for the guitarist.
In a mix... pretty much identical indeed. Isolated... there is a crazy difference in the high end. Listening in my Beyerdynamic DT 900 X studio headphones, I can clearly hear that the real amp has so much more high frequencies than the plugin (the plugin sounds like it has low pass filter applied to it, cutting the top end completely). Is it a bad thing? Not really, as you would either not hear these frequencies in a mix anyway, or even cut them off completely to allow more space for cymbals and other sounds that would benefit from these. What I don't get though, is why the knobs are always that much different in the plugins, especially considering the fact that amp modelling is supposed to model every component and react like the real thing. It's just weird that you had to drop the Presence to 0 in the plugin, while it's a little bit above the middle on the real amp. The other way around with the mids (maxed out on the plugin, while straight in the middle on ther real amp). I understand that these are not the same version of the JJ, but still weird lol. Although, I can make ML Sound Lab plugins sounds pretty much identical to Tonex captures of the same amp.. which is very impressive! I did the same with some Nembrini plugins (including the Dumble ODS), and match them to the point where I couldn't tell which one was the real capture when switching with my midi footswitch. So yeah, ''recording'' using a real tube amp became pretty much undesirable in 2023.
B felt a bit richer, but so close!
If your end goal is recording, absolutely.
listening on studio monitors, in the mix they sound identical save yourself $1400! if any difference i'm not hearing, that difference is not worth the $$$. btw i own Flagship 2.0 my fave amp sim by far! very cool riffs as always.
what a time to be alive
are you really not hearing the roll off at 6k hz and above in the plugin when isolated? :) It makes the plugin much muddier
They sounded pretty close here but there's always room for improvement. Perhaps I should have dialed in more presence for example. After an hour of tweaking or so at a certain point enough is enough. Lol
@@SonicDriveStudio Oh, do I know that feeling :)
Before I’ve watched the video, yes. Yes, they can.
A have more low. Have to say the result is a bit surprise, Cuz I prefer A in the blind test.
Seems like I'm gonna earn some money now, selling my tube amp 😄
Love the JJ. Truly an amp that feels like two amps combined.
I wish the guitar community as a whole would finally move on from the “t00bz are bettur!!!” mentality.
It only creates a silly stigma that holds back innovation, creativity, and experimentation when people hear that.
Presence on Flagship plug-in seems to me too low (compared to the amp), maybe this has some impact on sound: in fact seems to me the plugin is to dark or a little bit "flubby" compared to real amp.
That's my 2 cent.
The argument to settle here is a $200 midi controllable plug in sounds 95% accurate to its $4000 counterpart... Incredible
I would love to have the real deal but the sims in term of practicallity win except for playing live. Though... even that is arguable. Regardless I don't care which is the real thing it is so close that it simply doesn't matter.
And for me who unfortunately mainly working in front of the computer all the time the sim is more practical.
I have to use my really abstract term: The real JJ sounds much more "3D" than the ML sim. This depth/complex/3d/WhatEverItIs the axe fx has somewhat, but these ML sims just lack it IMO. They are still really really good and really cheap for what they are.
why are the prence in both dialed so differently
To match the sound of the small amp I had to use these settings. No biggie!
B sounds better to me, bigger low end, more dynamic and punchy too. Close tonally but I like B more. Wouldnt be surprised if this is the plugin as bigger low end and more dynamics are more what I associate with 100W power sections and not EL84's.
OK, just got to the isolated section and the real amp sounds WAY better to me. ML sounds boxed off and a bit weird. Real amp is more open and bigger, ML is flat and mushy.
Oh great. Now we have a new victim class.🤣🤣🤣 That's just what we need 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I think what gives away the real amp usually I'd there is this tiny element that always sounds just a little out of control. That little bit of randomness. Not even better neccessarily just different.
Please sell me 5150 iii el34 either 50w or 100w! :-( I don’t want to wait for a year until those come back in stock! :-(((
Strange, I like the plugin better.
The truth is for comparing amp simulations vs real deal is that you cant say until you've heard it through the same speaker in real life.
I think A is the real.
It's night and day. The amp has a better dynamic and better harmonics.
I own jj jr and this video probes digital amp sims never replace tonaly a real tube amp there's so much diferences
More "hiss" on real amp)))
There's a drastic roll-off at around 6 khz in the plugin version, which makes it muddier when compared to the real deal. Not really noticeable in the mix, very noticeable and annoying when isolated.
Yeah, it's definitely noticeable...but considering the Presence on the plugin is set a zero, I bet you could totally "fix" that by setting it a little higher.
There's a difference in how a tube amp and the modelings react and feel when playing them. The tube amp reacts as it does in a natural and almost living manner from the real components in it's build. It does that because that's how it does it. It's not copying anything. And the modeling emulation while they can sonically emulate the overall tone and some of reaction and feel, it's still not natural. It's synthetic. Good. But synthetic still. To me anyways. I notice it less playing rhythm and slamming chords, but much more playing lead and bending. And that way of reaction and feel effect the way I play. I enjoy my FM3 and the different amp sims I have in my computer, but I'm not getting rid of my tube amps. And plan to buy more instead of more modelers.
No It Can't !
This is so close it's not even funny. In the mix they are more or less the same.
great video mate!! Thank you