HEAT PUMP SIZING using HEATPUNK software
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- In this video I discuss sizing a heat pump for my house using a very nice piece of software called Heatpunk. I demo the software and also discover what I would need to do to make a heat pump work at home and the amount of radiators I would likely need to update, surprised me! Enjoy!
heatpunk.co.uk
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Excellent review. Just completed a survey of my property with the tool and came out roughly as expected. To run at 45 degree I will need to replace a couple of K1 for K2 radiators. I installed a 5Kw air conditioner in my 7.5m x 4m Orangary earlier this year and it has transformed the room. It now heats up in 20min in the morning and costs very little run from the solar and batteries. Totally sold on the technology 👍
Cheers Colin. Sounds great… I bet it’s like having an additional room in winter now?
I used Heatpunk and was within 5% of the 2 actual professional surveys I got.
Excellent. Good to know and thanks for the feedback.
I had a 7kW Vaillant heat pump installed on my 4 bedroom home. All my rads were already large K2’s other than 1 small bedroom which is now a study/office. The heat loss for my home was calculated at 6kW. I also have a very large room at the back of the house but I chose to UFH this room as we have large 4.5m bifold doors and vaulted ceiling. Our home is set to 21 degrees and we have a set back of 20 degrees. So far the system has been in since January 9th 2023 so almost 12 months. I used an Elite Heat Geek accredited installer for my system. Hopefully I might get to bump into you at Fully Charged Live in Harrogate this year. I’ve been to almost every FCL event in the UK since Robert launched the events. I must say I really enjoy it.
Hi. Thanks for the info. Yes, it would be great to meet you. I’ll be at FC North so if you see me come and say hi. We also have bifolds on the back as well. I keep debating UFH as I think it would work really well for our downstairs but it would be a pretty big job to install it. Happy with the heat pump so far?
Looks to be a good tool that gives comprehensive heat requirements for your home and is exactly what any good installer should be doing
A few thoughts from my own ASHP experience…
- aim for as low a flow temperature as you can, it’ll be notably cheaper to run. We turned ours down from 55 to 50 and turned on weather compensation, it’s running at about 35 degrees at the moment
- your heat requirements are hot water + heating, don’t buy the heat pump based on heating alone as it risks not being big enough
- upgrading radiators isn’t a big deal. We had most of ours replaced, it’s an hour or so job per radiator to put the new one in and connect to the existing pipes. Radiators are cheap as well, £100-200 each, that’s all
- you’re not advised to use heat zones or smart TRV’s like Nest, just let the whole house warm in your trickle analogy
- overall running costs in a well insulated house (a prerequisite) will be roughly the same. Of course with solar and batteries you can generate your own electricity and utilise cheap price electricity, not something you can do with gas or oil!
Some great points! Will definitely bear them in mind. 👍
Really useful thank you. We won’t be changing yet as we replaced our old combi with a new one two years ago. At the time there was insufficient information available generally to give us confidence into making the change to a heat pump. However in the time since a lot more information is available and software like you demonstrated can only help. We live in a pretty well insulated 1960’s built four bedroom home where I am constantly looking to improve the insulation. We have all copper piping for the radiators already and mostly double radiators in each room where they are necessary. If we had needed to change the boiler now a heat pump may well have been the choice.
Octi appeared in your hoodie top by the way. Keep the videos coming, always an enjoyable and in this case thought provoking watch.
Thanks Lynne, I'll certainly do my best as long as my viewers find them useful. :) These tools are great to give an idea as to how it will work and I always think it's best to be armed with this kind of information before I embark on something potentially costing a lot of money.
When to upgrade is also the part I struggle with, my boiler is only 5 year old and works fine, so seems pointless upgrading now, but will definitely go heat pump when the boiler is ready for the scrap heap. :)
Sounds like your house is ready to go though when it is time to replace the boiler.
Good spot!
It's interesting to note that all the money you'll spend on gas over the next 10 years could instead pay for solar PV plus home battery and a heat pump which will pay for itself in that time. If you keep the gas boiler going all the funds will go up in smoke whereas the heat pump plus solar and battery would have paid for itself and would be about to do the same again in the next 10 years. Food for thought!
@@johnh9449 I understand your reasoning but in our case that’s not an issue, we had our original 3kw array fitted in 2012 so are on the full FITS payments, added extra solar and battery in 2020 and further pv this year. The FITs payments paid back the initial costs of the original array in just over 5 years and has since paid off the two lots of extra solar and the Powerwall too. So in our case we are ahead of the curve. However, for those stuck with the SEG payments, or even those able to make use of Octopus Flux, even with the lower price of solar installs and VAT at 0% the payback time would be longer.
As my original post said, at the time of staying with a gas boiler we felt there was insufficient information to make a decision to go with a heat pump. I could have said but didn’t, that our enquires to find a proficient installer weren’t successful either, that has changed in the meantime. Dan also said with a perfectly reliable 5 year old gas boiler, he doesn’t want to rip it out just yet. Each individual will have different reasons for doing, or not doing something and it’s important we don’t judge anyone without knowing the full circumstances of their situation, which is something we can never know from posts. The best we can get is to judge what others experiences and judgement calls were and learn from them and in the main that’s what we do.
@@lynnfisher4396 Ah you had one of the more lucrative early installs. I nearly bought a house with that generating £3k per year. My recent system generates £2k per year (compared to standard electricity) but is bigger at 8kW and pays for itself in about five years IF I maximise the electricity use - which the heat pump does along with the more generous export rates in summer (20p to 30p /kWh) and cheap overnight import in winter (7.5p/kWh). The extra on top for the heat pump (less a £5k grant) adds a couple of years to the payback time but the grant now is £7.5k so the triple PV+ battery+heat pump combination is becoming easier. Octopus are pushing this now with "zero bills" and even free heat pumps in some cases. I think it's the best investment I've made - it beats savings accounts - and I think the government should be more like Italy where they fund 110% of the cost.
Octopus were not doing the whole thing when I looked into it and finding the right supplier was more of an issue. With an engineering background though I was able to check the whole thing in detail and even got involved doing some of the work myself. Not for everyone but the supplier side is now improving.
@@johnh9449 Hi John. Completely agree. Thanks to Octopus and their smart tariffs, the solar is turning out to be a brilliant investment right now. I’ll get round to installing a heat pump eventually and what you stated about the payback with gas savings is definitely something I’ll consider. I can only see gas prices going up as time goes on as well. 👍
I would suggest individual thermostats for each room gives more control. Our south facing rooms benefit form solar gain during the day and individual thermostats help keep the rooms at a stable temperature. During our renovation of a 1930's bungalow we had underfloor heating installed. Our ASHP is currently set to a flow rate of 35 degrees and getting a COP of 4.2 for the last month obviously this will go lower when the winter temperatures are lower. Also note the grant for installing a heat pump has gone up to £7500.
The increase in the grant is what is making it look really attractive to me now. We do have thermostats on each radiator and that really helps to regulate the temperature in most rooms pretty well. Great COP on the heat pump. You will have to let me know how you get on over winter. 👍
Zones can make your heat pump work less efficiently though right? As they have less emitters to dump the heat and need a higher flow temperature right?
@@Lewis_Standing Correct.
@@Lewis_Standing did not know this was a thing. We have nine zones in 6 rooms and a hallway. Two of the rooms due to their sizes have two zones with two actuators each
The logic is that you have a certain amount of energy lost throughout the house, regardless of where you heat, as, unless you close doors off completely, heat will migrate from warm to cold areas. By stopping certain areas getting heat, you make the areas that are need to run hotter to meet the heat loss, which makes the ASHP work harder and cycle more often.
It's apparently better to have one big open zone, but reduce the flow rates to the zones instead, so that they match the heat loss (or meet target temp) for the zone. Heat Geek have done a video on it.
Seems to make sense, I'm trying it with my UFH this year, I've removed all the zone valves and balanced the flow to the zones to try and get them to hit target temps, so far seems to be working, not noticing any real difference just yet either in terms of comport or savings on the energy used, but the logic is sound, so I'm sure it works. To be fair, I think most zones were heating at the same time previously anyway
Having gone fully electric two years ago here are my top tips. Invest in insulation and draught proofing. Have a secondary source of heat when the inevitable winter storms cut off your power eg wood burner. Fill your roof with solar and have a battery big enough to cope with the worst conditions for a week. If you have an EV get on a cheap tarriff so you can over heat the house at night as it will act as a thermal store. Our savings have come from not burning petrol in the car and overall the costs of running the house and car have saved us about 2000 pounds.
Good summary Peter! We are pretty good on insulation and draught proofing and that’s exactly what I’m working towards. Ideally I’d like another battery and more solar at some point, but it start to make the payback look a bit more iffy. Makes a lot of sense financially right now though and it’s a great feeling to be mostly self sufficient. 👍
The heat loss is shown on the heat pump page under "Heat pump load". In your case it is 6.309kW. The number on the performance page should be taken from your EPC and is the energy consumption for a year. In your case the 6kWh is out by about a factor of 1000!
Ah yes! Great spot... Should have picked up on that at the time, thanks for letting me know. 👍
Yeah exactly, well spotted. People can also use their previous years bills data in this section, if they have it, which would give them a good performance estimate. However you are required to use EPC data when applying for the BUS grant.
@@Heatpunk ooh, I will give that a try! Thanks. Great piece of software. 👍
Great Video Dan, definitely a step for us in the future, once we’ve insulated our old Victorian Semi! Last year we used 17,000kWh gas, and that was a lot less than previous years due to the price! 😬 So much to do to drag this house into the future, but we’ll get there. Thanks again for your videos 👍
Thanks Will! Wow, that is quite a lot of gas. At least your studio looks great! 😃Good luck with the rest of the renovations.
Good video Dan, We've got a SolarPV / Battery install planned, then a Heat Pump once that is sorted. 5:13 Octi made an appearance 😎
Thank you! Sounds great. Basically the same path I am on at the moment too. Keep me updated with how you get on and hope it goes well. Well spotted! 👍
Octopus energy have already surveyed my house and stated that only our sitting room needs an upgrade which is probably right as I’ve already upgraded the kitchen/ dinning room and entrance hall radiators. However I’m going to give the app you recommended a try. My experience as an engineer ended when I retired 16 years ago so things have changed big time since then. Like you I’ve installed a better control system, Honeywell home TRVs not to be confused with their dum TRVS! The Honeywell home system makes each radiator a zone that individually controls the boiler and pump. It switches on the boiler and heating pump whenever a radiator is calling for heat and then switches off when all radiators are satisfied, it’s a brilliant system, all be it a little bit more expensive.
5.17. 🐙 😂
That sounds great! The more control, the better in my opinion. Are you going ahead with the Octopus install then? You will have to keep me updated if you do.
Well spotted! :)
How long g did you wait for survey?
I paid £500 deposit 6 wks ago & still no survey
You only need TRVs if half your house is always unoccupied/unused. Better to open all the doors and TRVs and keep the heating flow temp as low as possible and permanently on. When you're sitting in your lounge with a lovely hot radiator, where is the heat dissipating? It's going into the other rooms and upstairs to the freezing cold bedrooms, creating draughts. And when you change room you'll need to whack up the heating to get it warm in a hurry, which is very inefficient. It's no way to live and even more pertinent when you have a ASHP.
5:28 on your hood on your right shoulder 😂
Sound is a tad high and causing distortion. 🤓 keep up with the good work. 👍
Thanks for letting me know. Hadn’t heard it until I turned it up. Will monitor on the next one. 👍
Used heatengineer for one of project for £12.50 was good included my sipp panels and tripIe glazed windows. I used the help
Line and they were very helpful. I agree it’s a good idea to know roughly what size rads and air source heat pump you require. I have had a quote saying my radiators were fine even though this would involve 70 degrees I think this would have given a really bad efficiency. I am in the process of getting quotes. Thanks 😢
Cheers Andrew
Hi Andrew. Yeah 70 seems high and likely not so efficient. Hope the install goes well. Keep me updated!
Surely you know by now from touching the rads if they are hitting 70° on cold days? If you can turn down your existing boiler's flow temperature and reduce it a few degrees at a time you'll soon find out for sure what temp you need to stay warm. If your boiler can't modulate down, you could go by how much gas was used in the coldest month minus how much was used in July (for hot water only presumeably) . That will give the average number of kWh required on cold days and a good idea of kWh needed. I don't think it's rocket science.
@@DanEVSolar7
Hi Dan
Thanks still trying to get a quote that gives me what I want . No one happy I wish a heat monitor included.
Still looking
@@johnhunter4181
Hi John
I have turned down boiler and some of radiators do not cope with coldest days as the calculations suggested.
Thanks
Can you post the link to the octopus different about the new heat pump specification you mentioned please?
Sure. Here are the two vids I covered on the topic.
OCTOPUS COSY 6 HEAT PUMP... FOR FREE!? Too good to be true?
ruclips.net/video/bWu7pUcMWAg/видео.html
MORE INFO ON COSY 6! OCTOPUS FREE HEAT PUMP!?
ruclips.net/video/4zPOfsVPHXg/видео.html
@@DanEVSolar7 sorry the document link you were given from Octopus
Dumb question but how do you dimension rooms on heat punk? I can drag the rooms about but i cant enter dimensions!
It’s not obvious is it. If I remember correctly when you drag the room size to make it bigger you will then see the sizes. Hopefully you’ve got it figured out by now though. 🙂
I had a call from Octopus to see if we could get the ASHP but when I told them the house was 192m² the computer said NO! And that was the end of the conversation - I see your house is even bigger, have they changed this policy?
Thanks for the info, very interesting to know. I've not had the full survey, so they may say the same to me if I did go ahead with it. I did hear that Octopus were choosing ideal candidates where the houses would work well with a heat pump but I have no evidence of that.
There's a longer demo of the #Heatpunk software here: ruclips.net/video/qts3Qqozm6U/видео.html
Interesting tool & info Dan. Did the software allow you to factor in your existing 100mm microbore pipework?
As part of my pre-Heat Pump house upgrades I need to re-insulate our loft which currently has only 100 mm of glass fibre in it which is all that was required back in 1986. I already have a LoftZone kit waiting for me to install which will raise the boarding I put in 30 years ago & allow me to put another 200-250mm of insulation & maintain some storage floor space. But first I have to pull out all the stuff that is in the loft!!
I didn’t find a way to specify the microbore, no. Ugh, that sounds like a horrible job. Hopefully worth it for a nice warm house though, good luck! 👍
After I completed my house plan on HP, I had the same realisation as you about how a heatpump works, all day trickle heating. What about in the summer, could I reverse the flow to make the rads cold?
Apparently you can but not so sure how well it works as the cool air stays close to the ground rather than spreading around the room. Heat geek did a good video on this and I think it just made everyone’s feet cold if I remember rightly. 😂
Some Heat Pumps can do this but I'd guess you would need fan assisted radiators or a drip tray under your radiators.
You did not mention the Grant is now £7500 for heat pumps.
Yeah I’d mentioned it on my previous heat pump videos and this one was more about using the software to understand my houses heat loss, rather than anything else.
Hi Dan just curious have you looked into tepeo electric boiler if this price comparison overall matches a heat pump ?
Tepeos are really only for those who can't install a heat pump for some reason, given they are permanently price-linked, a heat pump will be cheaper to run than a tepeo. In addition to that -Home battery storage - like what Dan has, eliminates the "USP" of the Tepeo as well.
Yeah I’ve seen it, but as others have stated, a heat pump makes more sense, especially with the government grant at the moment too. I believe the efficiency is around 100% on the Tepeo’s too compared with 3-400%ish on a heat pump.
I found it somewhat unintuitive, particularly to get a 45deg wall....and it couldn't model a chimney....not even a blocked off one
Then it fell flat on it's face without a UK postcode....couldn't give a heatpump recommendation....I get it's a UK site, but midsummer sell to Ireland as well
Hi Dan. Thank you so much for all your videos. So informative. Can I ask if you have done much research into air to air? Air conditioning in the summer using solar feels like a real usp and although you’re not benefiting from the government grant it appears to possibly be a cheaper install. I know you still have to find a solution for water but I’m still very tempted but wanted to get your thoughts.
Air2Air does have some solutions for DHW, e.g. over here I have a Hitachi Yutampo Twin, which has a DHW cylinder and 2 indoor units. Daikin has the multi+, which does the same thing. Toshiba also apparently has one but it's according to my installer - prohibitively expensive.
A2A does have some drawbacks - with multi-split, if there's a fault with one unit, it renders the system inoperable (so the more internal units you have hooked up to a single external unit, the more chance of something going wrong). They typically have a lifespan of around 15 years (vs 20 for A2W), and come replacement time the cost is practically going to almost be the same. With A2W, typically it'll just be replacing the monoblock on the outside, and maybe the cylinder; the major expense (piping, radiators, etc) is already done.
A2W can do cooling, but it does increase the installation cost quite substantially to do it properly - double the piping, using fan coils instead of rads.
Don't get me wrong either, A2A is great, but it does come with some challenges and extra things to consider vs A2W replacing a gas boiler.
Thanks Tom. Really appreciate that! Yeah, I keep debating A2A, but the lack of grant makes it not quite so appealing, despite the AC in summer, which would be very handy at times over the summer. The house gets very hot. I’ll probably end up going for an A2W solution with possibly one or two additional AC units for the summer I reckon.
We got two Panasonic mini splits installed for £3.5k in one day. Two mini splits can be cheaper than one multi - they are usually more efficient, you can turn one off in autumn/spring, you can site them closer to where you need them and reduce piping and you have redundancy. This December they easily keep the whole house at 20°. No fuss no mess, no ugly pipework or plumbers. Gas has been turned off since June and we are on Octopus Cosy so we use the immersion for hot water at 17p/kWh. Our boiler is 40 years old and the pilot light was actually costing almost as much as what we now spend on the immersion heater. Our downstairs unit looks like a small boxed in radiator, the upstairs unit is high on the wall - just like a 5* hotel. Just look around at all the air to air units on pubs offices shops hotels, especially abroad - some are ancient and still running. Anyway you'll save enough in service costs to cover replacement in 10 years. I'm sorry to say @BenIsInSweden is talking absolute nonsense.
@@johnhunter4181 what nonsense am I talking about John?
@@johnhunter4181 I'll address some of your points as I'm not sure which part you're making out that I'm talking nonsence on. Yes, multiple mini-splits can be cheaper than one multi, but isn't always the case, where to place the external units can become an issue, and if you have more than one, you are supposed to seek planning permission, according to the UK building regs - which a lot of installers are lax on. Efficiency varies - with A2A units they all modulate down quite well, so turning one off doesn't necessarily mean you save anything, or have any more efficiency. If you're basing longevity on AC performance, then it's not comparable, heat pumps don't generally just stop working, instead their output starts reducing, e.g. my old Panasonic A2A that reached EoL at about 13 years, seemingly was working fine, until the outside temperature started reaching 0C where it started to be unable to maintain the internal temperature - something it had done fine previous years. As for servicing costs - it'll vary, but generally more units = more cost, so 2x mini-split vs, 1 multi-split with 2 internal units will mean the multi-split will be cheaper to service. An A2W will likely come out to the same cost as a single mini-split.
Did you look at Tepeo Zeb?
Why would he do that? No grant, and pricing is horrendous, until Tepeo realise that they need to cut their prices by 50% and make it more appealing they will never get anywhere.
@@sjcsystemsit was just a question. I’m in Australia and we use these heat pump cooling and heating systems already and they are expensive to run all the time.
The Zeb looked like something they would just fit into the radiator system he spoke about. It also looks like it would be crazy cheap to run.
I didn’t know nothing about the price. I’m sorry I upset you. Do you want me to delete my question?
@@jasonrhl The Tepeo isn't cheap to run, it just offsets the "charge" and "discharge" cycles to prefer cheaper rate electricity. e.g. it will charge up with say 27kWh during a cheap rate, and then discharge it (probably with some loss) at certain times during the day. An equivalent heatpump would require between 5.5kWh and 9kWh for the same amount of heating during the day - which would also be able to make partial use of the cheap tariff. Add in Battery storage that can be charged over night (like what Dan has), and you take away the tepeo's USP.
@@jasonrhl wow no worries. I used to live in Melbourne, and Auckland some years before that. I'm not upset, but a number of people I know are annoyed that Tepeo aren't seizing their opportunity to slash their prices.
@@BenIsInSweden Im seeing videos of people with 3 - 6 air source heat pumps and thought it would be a massive cost for heating rather than just having a Tepeo which charges using solar during the day, particularly in Australia and then use this energy to run radiators at night. We run water coolers where I live in summer which only costs us about 60c cents an hour.
It was just a question but if there is more info on costs I would love to see it
Looks like your forever home, do you think that's right?
If so you might be there 20 years or more.
Looks like you're designing for 45c, and a SCOP just shy of 4. At 7000-10000kwh per year for heat that would be up to 200,000kwh over 20 years of heat needed or 50,000 kWhs of electricity.
If you take the pain now of a replumb with wider pipes and radiators designed for 35c, how much would you save?
Say you got a SCOP of 4.5 that's 6000kwhs of electricity saved or £2000. If you get nearer 5 that's 10,000 or £3000 saved.
Would it work out do you think?
You make some very good points Lewis. We certainly plan on it being our forever home, yes. Plenty to research and learn still. I’ll have a play around with the Heatpunk tool and see what effect 35 would have. 👍
Heat pumps and trickle don’t go together it shuts down and then ramps up as high as 7kWh I have had mine over 2years and the smart meter gizmo and thermometer are at my right hand beside my TV remote I pay attention to it wasting my money the radiator goes from warm to very cold in minutes as the pump defrosts and then ramps up using 7 kWh to get up to temperature.This is fact.
Sounds like a potential cycling issue, but I’m certainly not an expert. Might be worth getting that checchecked though as from my understanding it should just trickle the heat in slowly.
@@DanEVSolar7 That’s what I thought but to make heat it ramps up,No one seems to know anything about them.The controls only have so many settings to many variables.
Really high pitched noise on this video
Thanks for letting me know. Hadn’t heard it until I turned it up. Will monitor on the next one. 👍