Brent Watches - Z'Ha'Dum | Babylon 5 For the First Time 03x22 | Reaction Video
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2023
- And be sure to catch our main show, Babylon 5: For the First Time, when Brent is joined by Jeff to take a deep dive into the episode, searching for those Star Trek-like messages, and seeing if they should have watched it sooner. New Episodes drop on Mondays.
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Развлечения
Nothing says “Honey, I think we should see other people.” Like two nukes straight to the face.
😂
This is where the Legend of Johnny Nukem begins...
🤣I've been there myself...😅😅
@@lordpuki1375 well I mean it would've begun in the Minbari War tho, no?
Interesting symmetry, that... first he nukes the Black Star, the flagship of an enemy humanity almost certainly should not be fighting, then later he nukes the White Star, his own flagship, against an enemy they most definitely should be fighting...
Have you never seen Arnold's "Total Recall"? What Sheridan is saying here is loud and clearly "Consider this a divorce!"
Andreas Katsulas’ delivery of those lines at the end is simply phenomenal.
I couldn't agree more. It rivals (and in my personal opinion slightly surpasses) his delivery of the "we will be free again" speech he delivered in the B5 Advisory Committee room after Londo revoked his status as Ambassador for Narn.
Andreas was one of the best narrator I have ever heard. For me, his best speach is done further down the line, you probably know what I mean. A great loss for us all when he passed away.
There are many deliveries by Andreas in this show that are beyond phenomenal
I well up every time I hear him start to speak.
Stills gives me goosebumps, he could've made reading the phone book sound epic
Yes, the ending is... one of the best cliff-hangers of sci-fi tv.
Cliff jumping
Agreed. And at the same time the point at which one realizes that this Vorlons-vs-Shadows conflict does have a damn philosophical side worth thinking about... a moment of revelation, you might call it.
@@Asehpe the conversation with the shadows nearly makes you side with them when you realize how underhanded the Vorlons were
Brent - "I'm just excited to jump into it"
Me - "hahahahahaha"
I like how you were talking numerous times that "Passing through Gethsemane" is a defining episode for this season, and this was Sheridan's Gethsemane where he had to spend last night with his loved one and then follow to the inevitable demise.
Ooo, yeah! That's totally true!
G'Kar delivering the line "We know only, that it is always born... in pain"
always sends a shiver down my spine.
THIS... IS how you do a season finale!!!
That moment of telepath Susan at the end -- "he's gone". 😢
Her love powers her power; and her love goes unrequited again.
Imagine how it would have felt when the show was new. To have to wait for the next season to find out what happens. It was more than just a couple weeks.
If you were in the US, it was only a week until Season 4 started.
Here is the initial US broadcast schedule:
09/30/96 62 318 Walkabout
10/07/96 63 319 Grey 17 Is Missing
10/14/96 64 320 And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place
10/21/96 65 321 Shadow Dancing
10/28/96 66 322 Z'ha'dum
Season Four
11/04/96 67 401
The title of Season 4 and the first episode of Season 4, I have removed.
You think you got it bad? When my husband and I were watching this in the 90's after the kids were in bed (We found out much later that they used to sneak out of bed and hide behind the sofa and watch it over our shoulders) anyway--we had to wait through the entire summer of reruns before the resolution to this episode! I had never been so emotionally bound up by a TV show before or since.
Oh really? I had to wait a week for Season 4 to start, but maybe that's due to the whacky U.S. schedule for this show where they would withhold the last four or six episodes of a season until September / October so we would have the remainder of the current season immediately followed by the first three or four episodes of the next season.
Wasn’t it like a week between the air dates of end of season 3 and start of season 4?
@@brentallenlive yes, there was a huge 3 to 4 month gap between War Without End Part 2 and Walkabout in 1996. Then they aired 9 new episodes straight, so the remaining season 3 episodes and the first four of Season 4. Then nine weeks of reruns until late January of 1997.
😄😄We should wave huge placards in front of Brett; what are two weeks to months and months of waiting?
What did your kids think of the show at the time?
That moment when you realise the Shadows and Vorlons aren't as simple as "Good" & "Evil". 😁
Z Minus 44 hours
Yes, we had to wait a year for what is next! This was right up there with TNG:BoBW and GoT S5 and top cliffhangers ever! JMS knows how to keep you coming back for more. He also knows how to make you... cry, alot, even for a fully grown male adult. Zathras knows. Enjoy!!
BTW, Justin was played by Jeff Corey, who’s pretty wild as a character actor. Over 200 acting credits on IMDB, in everything from “Miracle on 34th Street” to “In Cold Blood.” He was the villain of the original “True Grit,” and was in the Star Trek TOS episode “The Cloud Minders.”
When I first saw this episode I was in film school and thought to myself "NO! Don't trust the guy from SECONDS!!!"
One of the greatest plot twist episodes of any tv show. Completely turning the whole world upside down. Is Sheridan dead? Or did he survive somehow? Did Sheridan outplay the Shadows, or did they ultimately outplay him? Or is it a draw? Does Kosh make sense now? Find out on the next episode of Babylon 5 for the first time.
Tbf, it's not really a plot twist but more a cliffhanger but I get your point.
I heard that in the Soap narrator's voice with the show music plinking.
Also remember that when this aired the show was on the edge of cancellation, you were never sure if you were getting another season so when they made this episode, this is how they might have left the show.
@@chadcurtis7967 JMS was getting 4 seasons 100%. He was hoping for a 5th season, but since he wasn't sure, he put all of the story he had in the 4th season. The 5th season was a surprise.
@threedoubleyoudotcom751 I know that the plan was always 5 seasons, JMS's plan was 5 seasons. But due to network issues and budget cuts, they told him that he would only get another season after season 3. So he had fit in 2 seasons worth of story into 1. But because the season turned out really good, they gave him one more season after that.
Loved that reaction. Great season finale. Yes I was one of the First Ones, had to wait about 6 months for season 4.
Be seeing you on Monday!
Not true if you were in the US. It was only a week between this episode and the first one of Season 4.
oh well! Since I was not in the US, it's still true @@robertdendooven7258 🙂
So many fans miss the fact that Justin describes himself as the "Middle Man" for the Shadows. Fulfilling Sheridan's dream sequence that "The Man in the Middle is looking for you." 👍
Gandalf jumped into the chasm with the Balrog.... Did anybody mention already that JMS was very much inspired by Tolkien? 😂
Another name for Moria is Khazad-dûm. That's a funny coincidence
JMS himself openly said so, yes.
Especially when we already saw that the main character was gone after season 1, was not entirely crazy to think that Sheridan wasn't coming back either. We of course at the time didn't know the circumstances as to why Sinclair character was basically written off.
Sinclair came back, though. And in hindsight it was the right call. Sinclair the calm one made a good religious icon, while Sheridan the war hero made a good leader of the Resistance and eventually the Alliance.
Looking forward to the rollercoaster of season 4 now.
This is quite the cliffhanger, and a very talkie episode. Justin's explanation of the philosophies of the Vorlons and Shadows is eye opening. Also don't know if you caught is but Adam Nimoy BZZZZZ directed this episode.
"Jump! Jump NOW!!" One of the most memorable lines in the series.
And the most noncryptic Kosh has ever been 😁
@@dennistomsen5822 yes a very clear direction, no ambiguities there.
"On your return you will recite the Babylon 5 Mantra:" "Ivonova is GOD!"
@@loka7783 Mine is "Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you!"
- and sadly, Sheridan waited a full 12 seconds before jumping. Kosh was trying to save his life, and Sherds doubted him to the end.
(Kosh) “Jump, JUMP NOW !“ Quite possibly the Only time that Vorlon didn’t speak Cryptic or in Riddles! Alternate episode titles: LITTLE ROOM🏡 ON THE Z’HA’DUM PRAIRIE or CAPTAIN SCARECROW AND MRS SHERIDAN!👱♂️👩🦰🚀🌒💥
Well, Kosh didn't tell him which direction to jump, and John didn't say "how high?"
Z'ha'BOOM
I'll remind you of the last episode of season 1. Delenn, before going into her cocoon, asked Sinclair to see her. He said he would, but then got caught up in all kinds of station stuff. At one point Kosh comes to him and says, "You have forgotten something". Sinclair looks puzzled, and then says, "Delenn!" That's the other case of Kosh being non-cryptic.
@@synp9ynir Well, Kosh didn't provide Sinclair What he was forgetting about....Although the Answer probably was obvious....
@@nolimit7959 After a whole season of Kosh saying only deep stuff, we get this thing. As banal as a string on your finger or an Outlook reminder.
This ep does bring up a point that you and Jeff have talked about, using telepaths against the Shadows. Morden says that telepaths came out of nowhere a century ago and that the Vorlons created them. Thus in the war 1000 years ago, telepaths were not as common. The Narns had them but others likely did not. So their use as Shadow weapons would not be known. Great show as always.
Back in 1996 in college... I can't express the hype and joy our little fan club had for this episode. I can't express the agony of waiting for season four.
It was only a week during the broadcast run until season 4.
I feel that, at this point, we begin to see what the differences between the Shadows and the Vorlons really are.
As Justin says to Sheridan, "conflict makes you stronger." And what question leads to conflict? "What do you want?"... Our desires, our dreams, our goals... they lead us to do things that put us in conflict with others who would use the same resources for other ends. This conflict calls for a resolution. To us, the side who wins 'was right'. But to the Shadows, it doesn't matter which side wins; whoever it is, it will have to grow, to develop, to become stronger, in order to win. Because the -- equally passionate -- other side will also grow, and will also develop, and the question is who develops more, who grows more -- who becomes more complicated and more adaptable in the process. If natural Darwinian evolution lead to the incredibly beautiful and complicated life forms we now have... what could it do for the further development of intelligence and civilisation? So the Shadows ask "what do you want?" not because they actually want to know what you want -- the goal is not really that important, but the fact that you -- your civilization, your worlds -- are ready to grow and develop to achieve that goal is what makes it worthwhile.
Is that a 'bad' wish? Does that makes the Shadows 'evil'? I think not...
What about the Vorlons? They ask: "who are you?" (Did you notice how Justin avoided answering that question when Sheridan asked him? 'Oh, who controls the value of currency, the fluctuations of fate?...'). To them, growth -- real growth -- comes from order, not chaos or conflict. The more you organize, the deeper you become; the more you 'find yourself', the more you see 'who you are', what your place is in this big mosaic called civilization -- the stronger it gets. After all, if every brick is fully conscious of its position and importance, doesn't the wall become stronger, sturdier, more impressive and powerful? Aren't the greatest structures -- buildings, governments, works of art -- made by carefully designing every piece, every part, so that it fits best, and the whole becomes harmonious, powerful... superior? And isn't for people the beginning of that finding out... who you are? How you fit? What your role is? ('Do you think, Delenn, that you're essential? That nobody can replace you? That you have a destiny, a fate? Are you THAT arrogant?... Who are you? [I read: what is your role? What is your function? What is your part to play in the big cosmic play?...]')
Is that a 'good' wish? Does that make the Vorlons 'good'? I think not...
Both the Shadows and the Vorlons have ideals. They want Something Else -- a better universe; with stronger, better civilizations in it. Unlike the Centauri or the Narn or the Drazi or the Vree, they're not fighting for glory or power or money or resources or revenge or... They're fighting because they want to see growth, to see evolution, to see things becoming better, better, best! The Vorlons and the Shadows are like communists and capitalists who both want some sort of earthly paradise, but completely disagree on the methods for achieving it.
And that, to me, is waaaay more interesting than simply a battle of good vs. evil. It's a battle of convictions, of idealisms, of... dreams. 🙂
It's good for so much discussion with my college roommates in 1996 and also with my students in 2005 and still today.
All the things Justin lists are emergent properties of chaotic systems (the hemline example is a nod to the Hemline Index - the idea that hemline fashion is an indicator of changes in the Stock Market)
Of course, correlation does not equal causation!
The Shadows ARE evil because this entire meeting at Z'Ha'Dum was in bad faith. They never intended to let Sheridan make up his mind in a way that worked against their interests. The fact they were going to destroy B5 based on his answer--whether he knew it or not--is pretty much proof of that. Not to mention that their very genetic material destroys the psyche of the being exposed to it.
@@chrism7395The powerful and the incompetent have one thing in common. They do not know the depth of their incompetence.. That's why they mistake chaos for progress, and destruction necessary for growth.
@@stevetheduck1425 yep, arrogance and stupidity
My favorite sci-fi show of all time.
Buzz me now!!!!! You have just seen Babylon 5's Best of Both Worlds with so much better of a build up..... We Live for the One We Die for the One
There was a cut scene. It's when the Shadows started talking about how Blockchain could be his greatest weapon in competition with other races and John just fuckin' HAD it and started shooting.
Can we get a moment to talk about how baller a move it was for John to pull a fucking Han Solo on a Shadow? "I'm probably gonna be surrounded at some point with one of those spider things that are billions of years older and wiser than me and could kill Kosh with no weapons, so...I'mma have to shoot them in the face." Door opens, Bad Guy there, draw and blast the shit out of him.
Also, notice how when Anna screams as the White Star dives in, it's almost exactly the pitch and sound of a Shadow capital ship as it flies into battle? You can take the woman out of the battleship but you can't take the battleship out of the woman.
Knowing that JMS had a trapdoor for every character in this show, I thought it was even money if Sheridan was ever seen again.
The voice of Kosh telling Sheridan to jump reminded me of Gandalf telling the Fellowship to run in the mines of Moria before the Balrog dragged him down.
"To the bridge of Z'Ha'Dum!" Gandalf spoke as he and the Fellowship sprinted through the columns of Dwarroderf and passed through the narrow door of the lower halls into the red-tinted corridors below, where ominous angled doorways directed their flight towards the outer terraces overlooking the cavernous crevasse yawning below. In their haste, they brushed past the bloodied man and the dark woman of redded mane, pausing ever so briefly to regard the gangled creatures who tread in her footsteps, the gossamer lace of their flesh undulating in the scant light.
"I SHALL PASS!" Gandalf roared.
The creatures retreated before the terrifying glint of light that breached the caul of night before Gandalf's staff, and they withdrew to rejoin their auburn herald and the nefarious locus that emanated from her hollow gaze. And whether they turned from their sinister machinations and left the bloodied man be, or resumed their vicious course and lay deeds borne of fell intent upon his wounded being, in the halls and dungeons of the World of Shadows, this tale does not tell.
" ... born in pain." 💔💔💔💔😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 LOVE G'KAR!!!!
And thusly the legend of John "Nuke `Em" Sheridan was born. No one signs a divorce quite like he does.
You think _this_ is where that legend was born? I think there might be a few crew members of the Dark Star who'd like to have a word.
(On second thought, maybe there *aren't* any crew members, but that's kinda the same point.)
Arnie voice: Considah that a divawce.
@@scroth0303 That's when the legend of the Star Killer was born, and this was where he demonstrated using nukes to solve problems just might be a pattern.
"You´re never quite...whole again."
You cut out that little moment with Justin, when his voice fades for a moment...is he speaking from experience?
That's always been my suspicion. He sounds a little haunted by it. Either that or he's seen it too many times and isn't as inured to it as he'd like to think.
Yes, I've myself wondered where Justin comes from. He wasn't in the crew of the Icarus, was he?... If not, I'm sure his story would be very interesting to follow...
@@Asehpe Unfortunately we didn´t get more...this one should have been a two parter episode as well. So much more stuff to expand the Shadows and their human servants on.
@@SirMarshalHaigThat is a spoiler. You are telling Brent that certain things don't come up again. It reduces their scope for speculation.
@@zarabada6125 No, it doesn't.
Anyone else notice the wreck of the Icarus parked outside when they landed in the shuttle?
I never noticed that before - it seemed to become more rock-like as the weathering of Z'Ha'Dum reduced it.
I never saw that, NOW I have to go look!
I just now checked the episode. It's a ship-sized rock. If that _was_ the Icarus, it's been covered in so much dust and sediment as to be unrecognizable.
@@XStylus you’re probably right. It looked to me like it had landing struts poking out below. Weird for a ship sized rock to be there though
This was a deep deep episode. I remember when I was watching the show when it was in its first run.....my initial reaction was WTF!!!!!!!
Should have expected nothing less from John 'Nuke Em' Sheridan
We didn't have to wait for season 4 because broadcast schedule was strange, instead of showing the show season by season, they did it in different chunks. Actual pase was before last 2 or 3 episodes of season 3, so the next episode was shown just a week later
Yeah, in the original US airing, it was a summer break between War Without End part two and Walkabout.
05/13/96 60 316 War Without End, Part One
05/20/96 61 317 War Without End, Part Two
09/30/96 62 318 Walkabout
10/07/96 63 319 Grey 17 Is Missing
10/14/96 64 320 And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place
10/21/96 65 321 Shadow Dancing
10/28/96 66 322 Z'ha'dum
Season Four
11/04/96 67 401
One of my favorite hours of television.
You are so so lucky to be able to watch the next one soon after. We had to wait months and months, it was agony!
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the comments already, or in the comments of the previous episode, but one of the reasons they reason Sheridan's wife was because Bruce Boxleitner's really life wife expressed an interest in playing the character. So that's what they did, as he and Melissa Gilbert were married at the time. All those wedding photos are from their actual wedding, as well as most of the candid pictures of the two of them. Just some trivia from you friendly neighborhood human well of useless knowledge. Lol
Can't wait for you to see what happens in Season 4.
Tick... tock... Tick... tock...
I mean, she was Miss Little House on the Prairie. How often did she get a juicy villain role on a Sci-Fi series?
"Narratively speaking, things had to go bad..." I agree, of course. This was the right point to up the ante and to introduce an even more dramatic season than we've gone through (and I think no fan will disagree, Season 4 is more dramatic than Season 3 -- in fact, it has my favorite, most perfect version of the intro music and scenes, which I hope you'll be reacting to in the next episode). But this deflects attention from HOW this "going bad" was achieved. To me, it was masterful.
Ivanova is left alone. She is the one running the station; Sheridan is gone, so is Mr. Garibaldi; the only senior staff left besides her is Dr. Franklin. G'Kar and Delenn now have to face the other members of the budding defense alliance without Sheridan's genius behind them. Both ot them are, in their different ways, suffering terribly from the loss of Sheridan. G'Kar... had become Mr. Garibaldi's friend. That isn't easy on him either; and yet he still has an oppressed people under the Centauri yoke he has to take care of, besides continuing the fight against the Shadows. Ivanova is alone... damn, wasn't life sooo much simpler when all she had to do (besides of course running the station...) was convince purple and green Drazi not to kill each other, or talk to the Lumati about Earth sex? Or make angry faces every time Bester tried to scan her?
Also, let's take a moment to appreciate G'Kar's words at the end of the episode. His claim about 'moments of revelation' and 'moments of transition'... 'life is waiting in moments of revelation, to change in moments of transition...' they bring tears to my eyes every time. In a show in which every season-final episode brings a big philosophical message, this one hit me righti n the feels. Isn't it... true? Can't you divide up your life into moments of revelation (when you get the clarity to see what you have to do) and moments of transition (when you actually see yourself using the revelation you've had to do something)? Doesn't every word of his feel so full of emotions of all kinds -- pain, loss, suffering, but also hope, ideals, dreams?... Isn't that a summary of the stance of a sentient being in an uncaring universe, still trying to figure out a way of carving an oasis of happiness and joy for itself, its species, its civilization?... And oh boy, isn't it true that the change achieved in moments of transition is always born... in pain? Changes always cause pain... it's only later that one feels the undeniable benefits...
It's things like this that make this a great show for me. Not that it follows a narrative recipe -- it does; you're right that this was the moment to make things get worse and up the ante -- but how it does it, the execution of the premise. Everything follows so naturally; the revelations about the nature of the Shadows and how they differ from the Vorlons; the consequences of Sheridan's choice not to collaborate with them; his sacrifice... the performances of the actors... it's just so good, man. I have no other words for it.
That’s a bit spoiler-y for very early Season 4. Might want to be careful not to spoil Brent and Jeff.
"That's not the same video!" Yeah, one of the problems of living in the age of binge-watching and all episodes available at the same time is that things like that become too obvious and too annoying to ignore. In the original broadcast, one could shrug one's shoulder and claim not to remember the 'original' Anna Sheridan; nowadays that's nearly impossible. All I can do is sigh and say the story is worth it. 🙂
We had videotapes)))
@@umikomidaradzuki7985 Yes, but did you run to get your VCR copy of the first episode in which we see her to compare with this one?...
I remember reading somewhere JMS saying when the Shadow's philosophy is uncovered, 1/3 of the audience will agree with them. I thought that was insane at the time. I can't find that reference now. Anyone else remember this?
It doesn't seem that insane a claim. The Shadow's methods may be extreme, but their philosophy is very much alive and supported in most big businesses - survival of the fittest and pitting everyone in competition with each other to see who deserves to move up. There are a lot of people out there who see everyone around them as a potential rival to be bested and thrive on the constant need to prove themselves superior.
@dargron7614 at the time, this episode hadn't aired, so no one knew their motivations. Having him say so many would agree with them seemed impossible to me at the time.
Weird....just found this channel today and I've been binge-ing videos from s2 finale to this; (will watch s1 up to s2 if I have time later)....GREAT reaction!
Welcome aboard!
I really want to go into the whole shadow vs vorlon ideologies, but it is still a bit spoilery
Hold, hold the line, and when the time is right you can get Super deep with what would have been spoilers.
I did write something about it upthread, I don't think it was spoilery, more interpretational. Order vs. chaos, but as an ideology for growth -- that's comparing what the Inquisitor says/suggests with what Justin now says/suggests. I don't think this is spoilery, is it?
@@Asehpe I saw it it's a grey area given what they have discussed this episode but not wanting to go further than that till later were we can fully discuss it...
I'm waiting to do so...
It's hard
Every time I watch this show every few years I'm always struck again at how phenomenal an actor Bruce Boxleitner is. The show had a great cast all around, but Boxleitner was the central axel around which the whole delicate mechanism turned.
He can be pretty good, he can be pretty bad. Personally, I think his infamous rant against "the short Italian antihero" probably explains everything you need to know about Boxleitner's views on acting, writing, narrative, and maybe even life itself. But yes, give him good material, and a strong director to make the most of it, and he does a good job.
Two weeks. Not so much. I saw this episode in my country , in Spanish in the 90s, and I had to wait three YEARS until they translated and put the 4th season on air. 4 Years, like hounground day watching again and again season 3.
Dude that SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS!
I'm old enough to have had to wait three years between Star Wars movies, though that really only meant anything after Empire Strikes Back.
You always know the worst is about to happen when Kosh makes sense.
It doesn't get any clearer than, "Jump. Jump, now!!"
This gonna be good. 😊
Another Star Trek connection for you. The actor who plays Justin also plays the father of Droxine in Cloudminders.
Yes, at one time Jeff Corey was one of those very busy actors who you'd see on TV in a guest star supporting role, and you'd immediately say "I've seen him before. What did I see him in?" Earlier, though, when he first started coming to prominence, he was one of many actors vilified by the House Un-American Activities Committee for having purported Communist connections, and was blackballed from the industry for a number of years. During that period he became one of the most respected and most sought-after acting teachers in Hollywood.
Two weeks... Back in 1998 we had to wait a year 😂😂
Not true if you were in the US. There was only one week until the start of Season 4.
@@robertdendooven7258but I was watching in the UK 😂
No, we didn't.
This experience was important for Sheridan to realize that the woman he loved was indeed dead, and all what was left of her was this Shadow puppet. So, he can move on with Delenn without breaking his marriage,
The novels expand on B5 a lot, and Anna had been a ship for so long that she had to be retrained to act human. Arguably, she was dead all along...
Now, what this tells us about the Shadows, and the Shadow's views, one must question, how honest are they here? Certainly, the Shadows, in their own eyes, do not think of themselves as evil, and I think they are being honest about that. However, from the greater perspective, the things they do, the things they do not do, in the end would be classified as evil, even if they have good intentions, but it also shows even they are not total evil in that they still have some good they want to hold onto. This is totally B5, once again, but it also connects to the Eternal Champion and its representation of the Gods of Chaos.
The Shadows still want to uplift the younger races, it's just that they think that is best done by adversity while Vorlons think it's better with nurture.
Yep. "No one is the villain in their own narrative."
I think this is more than simply 'the Shadows are deluding themselves if they think what they're doing is good' -- I think this is a real question about what goals are ultimately 'good' and what is allowed in the pursuit of that goal. See, I would agree with you if the Shadows wanted something like what Londo wanted -- glory for themselves, the Great Shadows Republic, etc. It's hard to justify that as a universal good. But when one looks at actually improving and making younger races grow stronger, then the ideal, in itself, can be quite appealing... and if one can prove that such methods are indeed necessary to achieve this goal...
I compare the Shadows vs. Vorlons ideological conflict with Capitalism vs. Communism -- not because of any similarities in the ideas, but because, in both conflicts, both sides wanted the best for all. Neither side, at least in its purest form, was being arrogant or selfish -- they didn't just want power for themselves. They wanted the Best System for Humanity because both believed in some form of progress, in some way whereby humanity could grow and come closer to creating some sort of paradise. But they diverged radically in terms of what this paradise would exactly be in detail, and even more on what methods could be used to achieve them. It's not that one of these schools 'worships evil' while the other 'worships good' -- just as the Shadows and the Vorlons are not just 'trying to conquer the galaxy and force all other races into submission' (that's more like what the Centauri want). No--I think both think they have The True Answer to the question of what's best for all civilizations in the galaxy.
@@SteveMND And that's an interesting thing. In the end, it prompts the question: what is a villain? What makes a villain a villain rather than a 'misunderstood hero' (or 'anti-hero')?
The Shadows are full Darwinists. Call that good or evil as you want. Is the survival of the fittest something evil?
When Kosh gave Sheridan that black and white vision, the statement was made that the man in between was searching for him. Then the statement was made that "I am the hand." And Delin explained that we have 2 hands. Justin is Sheridan's equal but opposite counter part; the Vorlons used Sheridan to fight the war, the Shadows used Justin.
Nope... That was the final REVEAL of Kosh's vision to Sheridan. Susan was a telepath, they would work with the psycore and the man in the middle, Sheridan's counterpart, was searching for him. Justin called himself "a middle man."
One of my favorite episodes ❤😊
Definitely an episode that explains a lot about the shadows, and it also leaves some mystery to reveal in the next season. Season four is my favourite season, though there are people who don't like it as much as seasons two and three. You'll eventually find out why there are people who rank two and three over four.
I like Season 3 more because of the build towards the emergence of Ancient Evil. That's always more exciting to me narratively. But Season 4 is definitely amazeballs.
I watched back in the nineties, but I am really enjoying your reviews, I envy you watching for the first time, will tell you in the UK we had too wait 18 months for season 4 imagine waiting on that cliffhanger for that long, back then you had to wait there wasn't the internet the leaks like there is now.
Something else to consider -- how much of this did the Soul Hunters know? Seems they understood the reality of what was going on and tried to warn Sinclair....
dang you missed it while looking down to take notes. Hope you caught what happened to Garibaldi at the very end during subsequent viewings. Cause otherwise it's just tragic... "What happen to Garibaldi?" Looks down to write notes while they're showing what happened to Garibaldi...
Both Jeff and Brent often watch episodes multiple times before recording the episode proper. I think we're probably safe. 🙂
I'll bet Garibaldi was asking himself, 'why did I have to go fly this #&&@F#! starfury instead of staying on the station? I'm security chief after all, not a combat pilot!'
The dialogue with 'Justin' has always been one of my favorite scenes of the whole series.
As a kid when I saw this episode and that's how they ended the season I was like "No!!!!" but you ain't seen nothing yet ;). On to the next season!
2:40 "I dont know if I could sleep like that" ... there has been "sleep experiments" with a woman and a man sleeping next to each other, recording how well they sleep. The result was ...
- if both know each other they have a normal night's sleep
- if they dont know each other, the man sleeps normally but the woman sleeps badly
Story: I was at GenCon at a B5 event and Europe was seeing episodes a few weeks before we were in the US. We were given a 1 word spoiler at the event about the season finally, "Boom!"
Makes me think of Ivanova in Season 2 (or was it Season 1?) going 'Boom! Boom boom boom! Boom! It always ends in boom!"
The next 22 episodes will change your baseline for any TV/Film series you come across from now on. B5-S4 is..... Full ON.
there are slow episodes and problematic ones in S4 -- let's not over-hype. It is my favorite season, but there are sequences which can be hard to get through, especially for the first watch
I came to the show in the middle of season 3. I was startled by the end of this episode. I think three or four months passed before season 4 started. I feel this is an amazing cliffhanger capping off an amazing episode.
a point to consider, a testament to delenn.. watch the b4 episode again. she says at first "I didn't think it really happened"; she also says "we must not change anything about how the war ended"
and in the end, she tells him "don't go to zhadum"; KNOWING that by saying that, Sheridan will go.
Well I'd think it is safe to say that they now understand why we call him John "Nuke 'em" Sheridan.
I love this episode overall, but I absolutely adore the ending. Pure, distilled suspense and drama.
"I'm kind of angry that I have to wait two WEEKS for the next one."
Oh. . .POOR BABY!
Imagine what it was like for US watching this on TV! Having to wait MONTHS! lol
"COME ON SHERIDAN! JUMP! JUMP NOW!"
Well, to be fair, as someone who watched Little House on the Prairie, Melissa Gilbert DID grow up "FINE"! So, the temptation to NOT jump & "stick around", IS reasonable! ;)
We didn't wait months
The actress who originally played Anna Sheridan was unavailable at the time so Bruce suggested they use his (then) wife, Melissa Gilbert, to fill in..
Nothing quite says its over like dropping a couple hundred kilotons of thermonuclear weapons on your ex.
I always liked Sinclair more than Sheridan, but the closer to his death we got, the more I liked him. This episode was pretty much peak Sheridan for me.
I wonder if blowing himself up with two nukes was enough overkill, or would a third one been even better?
Nobody:
JMS; If you go to Zhadum you will meet... Mark Twain.
(Then you will die lol
I love the shot of the door opening behind Sheridan and a shadow creature walks in. Such an eerie walk, and the way the 'humans' react so indifferently to these bug-like creatures is quite unsettling
You have to skip the title credits for the first 2 or 3 episodes of Season 4.
errr. why?
Why?
@@Nikioko - It might give away a surprise.
Why? The argument would be, because as things stand, we don't know if Sheridan survived or died from his jump. If Boxleitner is in the opening credits he survived, if not then he died. So unless that plot point is resolved immediately the credits would spoil that. (Of course, if Sheridan died, then the future we saw in WWE was an alternate future where he didn't die. Which is possible as things stand.)
@@SC-LXVII True. But we learned already in the show that there are different kinds of death. Anna and Morden died, although their bodies obviously survived. Same for people with death of personality. Kosh is quite obviously dead, but his voice demanded Sheridan to jump. Maybe he lands on a rubber tree. 😆
Dammit, +1 days.
Sheridan asks Justin 'Who are you?' The Vorlon question, and Justin explains his job. He failed.
Sheridan also asked Kosh "What Do You Want?" and got a very harsh response. Justin was evasive to say the least, and Morden was clearly irritated. Only Sheridan could ask each side the other side's question.
Dude I was in love with Laura Ingals. Seeing her again here looking like she does... I might have gone along with her is all I'm saying.
4:44: And Janeway had to realize that her fiancé had married another woman meanwhile. *bzzzt*
J: I won't go down easily and I will not go down alone
Silent Kosh: Jump, jump now!
J: Snoochie Boochies!
You have no idea how painful the wait was for season 4. No idea at all. I was stunned as a teenager at what I had seen, and I was pretty buzzing. I literally couldn't wait and it felt like forever.
Wasn’t it like a week?
@@brentallenlive yep
Now, in the UK, they had a longer wait:
September 22, 1996 (UK)
October 28, 1996 (US)
To November 4, 1996.
So the UK had a bit more than a month
@@hornorsilk2901 In Australia we had to wait 9 months!
Season 3: December 96 - May 97
Season 4: February 98 - August 98
Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I have a feeling the S4 video cassettes were available for rental before they aired as a result (or maybe by that stage I had simply given up on trying to chase the episodes around ever changing network TV schedules and began defaulting to the convenience of Blockbuster).
@@hornorsilk2901 It was a long four weeks!
It's a shame that Agent Cooper didn't take a couple of nukes with him before going to the Black Lodge.
So when I watched this episode for the second time I noticed how unemotionally attached Anna was. It's downright creepy. She's focused on a mission -- to bring John back. Not the emotions that would come from being away, from walking in to find he had started a new life. None of that. It;s all missing.
Wow, you're late to the party, bud 🙂. But now you're forcing me to dig out that huge DVD box set and rewatch the series 😄.
9 months. In the UK, we had to wat 9 months.
Goulds are from Stargate.
In the UK it wasn't insanely long wait between season 3 and season 4 after this episode dropped what would happen next
Good ups.
Us first-run oldtimers had a different experience. As cliff-hangers go, this wasn't REALLY the S3 cliff-hander. WWE Pt 2 was. The network always held the last four-five eps back over the summer before showing them in the fall as a run up to the following season (starting with Walkabout). So, Zha'ha'dum rolled right into the S4 premiere episode.
Not sure why Jeff/Brent watched Walkabout before WWE though.
Because someone told them it was the preferred order. Of course, there's about a dozen "preferred" orders
I'm gonna repost the quote I used when the last reactor I watched saw this episode. "This isn't the story we thought it was. All our assumptions were based on a game we were never playing, on a story that wasn't being told.
Buckle up."
We thought it was a story about good vs evil. But it's not good vs evil or light vs dark. It's order vs chaos. So the story we thought was being told for three years... it turns out it's not that story at all. If that's not a WHAM episode, I don't know what is.
Interestingly enough, the Shadows show they can't be pure chaos. "You do as you are told" indeed.
@@hornorsilk2901 The Shadows aren't chaos. The Shadows are Darwinists. Their principle is survivals of the fittest. The strong ones will prevail. So, the Shadows follow the order of evolution, while the Vorlons follow the rule of eternal order.
This whole episode telegraph's it all and I'm surprised how many tangents you went on...
There's a massive flaw in logic about "do not go to "Z'ha'dum" that he took to mean he didn't go to Z'ha'dum, why warn if he never went would she say it? It would only be a warning if he had gone.
Don’t drink the chamomile tea
I f Putin asks you to drink some tea: always refuse.
Hmm , Sheridan goes SPLAT.......
You would not believe the chalk outline...
The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote! You are a pebble! Enjoy S04! 🤣
S04? What does this have to do with football?
Now just consider HOW LONG JMS left us with that back in the days...
One week
You cut the nuke?
/plays "Club Tropicana"
THIS episode... yup we were all on tenterhooks waiting for the next season after this finalie, well those of us who had to wait. ...At the risk of overhyping things, ya'll thought season 3 was a ride, just wait till season 4 lol. Not saying there won't be disappointments, just saying hold on to your butts!
Best thing is Anna is played by Bruce's real life wife; Melissa Gilbert
I just noticed that justin said he was a middleman. Is he the man in the middle that kosh spoke about?
Yes, he’s the man in the middle. Other than that, he’s a blank slate.
That's one explanation, there's another but we can't talk about that yet because of spoilers.