Please remember to not post any spoilers or comment on any future events / characters. Please restrict your comments to this and previous episodes. Thanks :)
G'Kar's speech along with the aftermath summary, at the end of this episode, is one of my favorite moments in all of the science fiction I've ever watched. Adam Nemoy paired up with JMS' writing, and that of the writer's room, is simply unmatched in my eyes.
I love G'Kar's Coda at the end of this: Citizen G'Kar : G'Quan wrote, "There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
At this point we know that Sinclair would have been the original plan for the show. For sad reasons, Sheridan had to replace Sinclair. In the original story line it would have been Catherine Sakai, the prospector from S1, who would have stumbled upon Z'ha'dum.
To get the authentic Babylon-5-watching experience - like those of us who saw this on TV in 1996 - wait about 6 months before finding out what happens next. This isn't even a cliffhanger, it's a cliff-plummeter.
And the telepath scan was actually that of Bester's lover, Carolyn Sanderson! Hard to catch while watching, but one of those great easter eggs that are very satisfying to know.
I also gave thought to the notion that this one city was all of Z'ha'dum and I rejected it. But I expect that this is sort of the capital and this took out a significant portion of the leadership.
@@CultTVSofa The Domes could've been Holographic to look like solid Rock, with the Shadow's technology being millions of years advanced then that theory is very plausible!
Kosh wouldn't tell Sheridan to jump unless there were some way he could survive by doing so. He did tell him before that "if you go to Z'ha'dum you will die" but that doesn't mean you will stay dead. These Vorlons are so cryptic sometimes.
It's been so cool watching these with you while finally watch this in it's entirety. You've got a fun sense of humor and adding those tidbits above the video, on the right, is so unique when it comes to reaction channels. I normally hate reaction channels but I love yours. 😎🛋 Having the same sense of humor I do also helps. 🤣
As to the future Sheridan, the temporal displacement transports your consciousness into a different time period, so that was future Sheridan physically with Delenn but with the consciousness of the temporarily displaced Sheridan. The samething goes for Delenn, when she traveled to the night that she saw Anna alive and dropped the glass. I'm not sure why the bodies of the temporally displaced disappear but I'm sure it's only their consciousness that travels.
Oh, yes Anna and Delenn. Remember the old saying that the Minbari do not tell the whole truth. The "need to know" attitude. I am pretty sure Kosh was the one to decide at the time. Londo's reaction to his "promotion" again shows that he is very savvy when it comes to politics. He immediately realizes that it is more of a leash than a reward. Shuttle bay: Remember "War WIthout End"? When Zathras arrived in a shuttle he could get on board. So in a sense the shuttle bay is established. Oh, yes - the Shadows philosophy: In a sense they do have a point, but the price .... I think we can agree that it is far too high. You are right, of course - the philosophy of both Vorlons and Shadows is wrong, but given their massive superiority in arms and technology, what can the "younger races" do? Yes, the White Star entering the atmosphere is really well done! Answers will come ... and what happened to Garibaldi is another unanswered question. Yeah, that was very much an episode that JMS calls a "WHAM!" episode. Like others, I love the G'Kar monologue at the end of the season. Now what? - Season 4 is coming ... Looking forward to your season wrap-up.
Please keep in mind that according to the original script, Anna Sheridan was supposed to be Catherine Sakai, Jeffrey Sinclair's girlfriend. But since Sinclair had to be replaced by Sheridan, Sakai had to be replaced as well.
Thank You for thinkfull reaction. This episode is the connection point of many lines, sets a suspense and open door to the mystery. Anna's new personality was a kind of symbiotic part of shadows battleship mind. Even her scream by the light of the 'artificial stars' expressivly reminds of their war shriek.
Thank you :) Someone else said about the scream and I hadn't noticed. I even have her scream followed by the Shadow ship screaming.....not sure how I missed that :)
Your original thought was right though. Sheridan was always in the future. Sheridan occupied his future self's position in the future. He does always survive Z'ha'dum if that future happens.
4:28 "Sheridan, was it always destined that he would be here?" What did Zathrus say... "You are the one that was, you are the one that is, you are the one that will be"
It's odd though. Sinclair I can understand was destined to be there, because of Valen. I haven't seen any evidence (so far) of Sheridan having to be where he is. That obviously may come later on though.
@@CultTVSofa So, at what point did you realise Sinclair was Valen? I don't think there was much evidence beforehand, and yet he was destined to be there. Sometimes you just need a little faith (and no spoilers...).
@@CultTVSofa I think it was either Zathrus proving he could see ahead with the machine or an understanding that shadows and vorlons have predictive capabilities as well and when you think about it all the signs for Delenn and John were there by the time Sheridan left.
I just meant that Sinclair was destined, because he was Valen....he is in the past and set things in motion that led to him becoming Valen in the future. I don't think I have seen anything like that about John. He just seems to be the right person, in the right place at the right time. But could someone else do that?
And that was the season 3 finale! This episode is the second highest rated B5 episode based on IMDb scores, between Severed Dreams and War w/out End. 6:46 Those nukes have 10 times the yield of the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuke ever created. I almost feel sorry for the Shadows. 25:20 That sounded a lot like the scream a Shadow vessel makes.
One thing to keeps in mind is that, due to various factors, the damage that a nuclear (fission or fusion) bomb produces, doesn't scale up 1:1 (or anywhere near) with the tonnage rating increase. If it did, Tsar Bomba would have produced a fire ball of 1200 km in diameter. In reality, it was an 8 km fireball compared to 370 m for the Hiroshima one, making it about 22 times larger. Things scale similarly with the "total destruction" blast radius. Still horrifying though. They didn't even test it with the last stage attached, which would have increased the yield to 100 mt. But yeah, Sheridan had the right tool to completely annihilate a sprawling alien megapolis. BTW, I don't think that having two of them would increase the blast, as one is bound to go off a fraction of a millisecond earlier and annihilate the other one. I think that the real reason for him bringing two of them was having a backup, in case the first bomb turned out to be a dud and failed to go off.
Having Telepaths in the shadow ships gives them real time communications, in the same way that the Centauri Emperor always had 2 Telepaths with him, so he could know what was happening back home in real time. (The Emperor that G'kar wanted to assassinate).
@@CultTVSofa as far as we know the Shadows had only implanted human telepaths and had only made alliances with the Psi Corp. Those telepath implants never arrived for the Shadows since Bester and B5 intercepted them. So we don't know if the Shadows actually ever got any telepaths on board of any of their ships.
This episode took place at least seven years after one shadow ship rescued another one that had been buried on Mars, so no, they were not all asleep when the Icarus landed. IMHO, Delenn was speculating a bit.
Remember Kosh is never wrong. Everything he says has a purpose. Also If you want to know what happened to the crew of the Icarus there is a novel I think called The Shadow Within that goes into how they all fared against the shadows when they landed. (in more detail)
When I read you had written 'Kosh is never wrong' - I had his voice in my head saying 'The lottery numbers for Saturday are 4, 12, 15, 18, 22 and 33'. My head is a very strange place :)
One of the greatest cliffhangers ever made. Sheridan doing some mental gymnastics to make Delenn’s no mean yes. For clarification, Sheridan was alive in those future scenes. He time jumped into his future body from Babylon 4. JMS has complained about the city looking too human but it was too late to change it. I love that ending monologue plus the imagery and music. The summer of ‘97 was a long one.
@@CultTVSofa Both Sheridan and Delenn had some wrinkles added and some grey hair but it was a little too subtle to see clearly when then were under the harsh lighting of those scenes.
If you remember the episode where they rescued a bunch of telepaths with Bester, you'll know why Sheridan's wife would've never consented to be scanned.
Please keep in mind that according to the original script, Anna Sheridan was supposed to be Catherine Sakai, Jeffrey Sinclair's girlfriend. But since Sinclair had to be replaced by Sheridan, Sakai had to be replaced as well.
I loved this episode when I saw it air here in the UK, as you said- it needs a re-watch: there's just so much crammed in to take on board in such a complex plot! I remember giving myself a headache at the time trying to think through timelines, & who going where would effect what! It always confused me just HOW disruptive Sheridan was to their plans: sure he'd united most of the races into a force for good, but unless anyone else had been approached off-screen by the Shadows- they were only pulling strings with the Centauri & Earth Gov, both of which were going to plan! I always figured that when they failed to convince John of their cause, they grabbed Garibaldi with the view of ''If we can't turn Sheridan....'' This cliff-hanger ending was so well done, it just invited so much examination & speculation - I remember my Brother & I literally talked about it all day! Definitely one of the best cliff-hangers of this, or any other, sci-fi show!
By this stage, just about everyone else had been approached by the Shadows off-screen. A ranger spells it all out to Delenn during the episode "Severed Dreams". Once the Centauri started threatening everyone around them, the Shadows then approached the members of the non-aligned worlds and offered to help them protect their borders from the Centauri. Once these worlds saw the power that an alliance with the Shadows offered them, "an alliance of defence, grew into the dream of conquest" and they in turn started attacking their neighbours, which allowed the Shadows to make even more deals and encourage even more aggression behind the scenes. The Shadows only started with the Centauri. When Morden first came to the station was specifically looking for a race that would use their power to threaten everyone around them, to scare all the other races into accepting the Shadows' influence. This is why the Narn were of no interest to the Shadows despite their bloodlust - once they were done exacting their revenge on the Centauri they had no ambition to continue fighting any further. This is how Sheridan is so disruptive to their plans. The Shadows want everyone at each other's throats, fighting a life or death competition of survival of the fittest. Sheridan (and by extension Babylon 5) is inspiring alliances, forcing continued dialogue between warring parties to resolve issues and providing alternatives to war. If Sheridan and B5 weren't there, the Shadows would have a much easier time spreading distrust and convincing all the worlds to turn on each other.
13:20 "Why would they give that technology up?" Excellent question. 23:51 "You do what you're told!" People who say you have all the freedom you want, the other guy is all about being your mom, are either the same or more often worse, under the consequence of pleasure island. So much to offer, all right now, until it's not permitted. Do forgive the Pinocchio reference, couldn't resist and I smile just thinking about deceased Doctor Cricket taking over Geppetto's house for his practice. G'kar's writing at the end is beautiful. Few creators can make me not only love narration but take something from it that truly lasts: Peter Jackson with Tolkien's beautiful work opening spoiler, "And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost, history became legend, legend became myth." Joss Whedon end of season 2 spoiler, "Bottom line is, even if you see'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So, what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are." and JMS as seen here, along with their remarkable writing staff of course. I always look for the familiar, something my soul remembers before I had flesh. I think it's the biggest thing that brings me back.
When I was watching your reaction on War without End on that scene when future Delenn begs present Sheridan in the future not to go to Z'Ha'Dum in Sheridan's future that would have been Delenn's past (goddamn time travel is confusing).... so, where was I? Ok, look. You than made a guess that Sheridan would go to Z'Ha'Dum specifically because Delenn told him not to go. It sounded really funny as a guess in given circumstances. But I was watching this and thinking to myself.... Dude! You have no idea that you are right! Just could not tell you so it would be a spoiler. :D
I have to give a Like just for the HILAREOUS thumbnail of a Shadow in front of a White Picket Fence! Too funny! I always took Ivonnava's saying "Sheridan had died" as more of a deductive reasoning of the Shadows SUDDEN, panicked departure from Babylon 5 space. (that he must have done something BIG & probably suicidal) But JMS is very good at leaving stuff ambivalent, so you can INTERPRET it however you like! (Including. . . DID Sheridan succeed in Changing the future? Did he NOT go to Z'ha'dum originally? Or did he do what he ALWAYS did? And it will ALL play out just like he saw it?) Also, I actually watched Little House on the Prairie (Gen X-er) when I was young, and I have to say, Melissa Gilbert (Anna) grew up to be quite the Beautiful woman! Not to mention rather talented. I mean seriously, that "But I can love you. . . just as well as she did." was spine chillingly CREEPY! Another great episode & great review. I always enjoy seeing other people's reactions to Babylon 5. Not to mention, any new (or different) theories they come up with for stuff.
Whilst I would like to take the credit, I didn't put the Shadow in front of the post. It was more in front of the sign. The post just happened to be there :)
@@CultTVSofa Yep, I knew that. (even back then) What I DIDN"T know (until after I watched your LAST reaction) was that they had Divorced some time ago. Sad. I don't know why I was surprised. (given the ABYSMAL state of Marriage in the West. Much less, in Hollywood.) But, for some reason, I was hoping they were still together. Normally, an attractive wife, sashaying up & trying to seduce her man, would be very welcomed. But as Fry from Futurama once said, "I'm so Scare-roused!". lol
I absolutely adore this episode. The pacing, the status quo shift, the music. But, some things have always bothered me. How does Anna have access to Sheridan's quarters? How does she just walk in? My head-canon says she knew some access code provided by the Shadows, but it's never explained. That's a serious security breach! I remember being on the edge of my seat throughout the last part of this episode, and that end speech by G'Kar. Still amazing!
I agree it is a big unanswered question. Someone else pointed out how easily Mr Morden and the Shadows were able to enter Kosh's quarters previously. They seem to have their ways......
There are a lot of moments when I wish I'd been able to see B5 on its original one. This was NOT one of them. Being able to continue with the next episode after a few days was such an advantage, I don't know if I could have waited months! Looking forward to your season review by the way. For my part, this one is my favourite season - though you'll only be able to fully judge after you're all the way through, I'm curious to hear what you thought!
@@ericjohnson9623 Neither for me actually :) Germany/Netherlands, no idea what it'd have been like here (I'm a bit too young to have watched the show as it aired). But there's at least one good thing for the US crowd then, considering I heard they could barely find the show with how much it was switched around!
You're wrong about Morden.... he's a volunteer and not "controlled". The Shadows lied to him and told him they could use their superior tech to restore somethings that he had lost... his wife and daughter were killed in a jumpgate sabotage explosion. The Shadows said that they were just "disembodied" in hyperspace and that their incredibly advanced science could bring them back if Morden would just serve. The pendant around his neck had a locket with the images of his family within. (From books considered canon - they also contain some great chilling passages about Anna's "life" as the CPU of a Shadow Battle Crab)
FUN RESEARCH.. Looking at some tables about events/ongoing trnasmissions that are measured in Megatons of Joules, etc etc. THese Nukesa re ~500,000 Megatons if I remember G'kar correctly.. Accordign to the loose resrach I did, that puts them at ~20500 times more powerful than the Mount Saint Helens explosion. A more recent comparison, in natural terms, as opposed to manmade
I'm guessing Mollari would have to be splitting his time becuase the Centauri Republic (really empire) is super aristocratic and accumulation of titles/offices is common in those types of states. Absenteeism would be common in those situtations but Mollari essentially said he would do is best to do both.
Z'ha'dum is like the capital world of the Shadows. The site is (likely) a central area. But, it's most likely that Shadows are all over the planet.... But as races go... I'm sure the Vorlons, Shadows, and other First Ones have small populations. Often acting thru surrogates.
Progress through conflict is only a thing since the people who can usually effect change tend to not want change unless its instant benefits for themselves (money power control etc) as such nothing gets done unless for those reasons and conflict makes such people money, power and control. Hell all wars (on both sides) have always been about personal gain of a few at the top. People complain about NASA getting 20$billion a year... yet dont complain about the 777$billion per year in military spending (and that amount doesnt take into account black budgets which go into the Trillions)... Imagine what NASA or and other research institution could do with THAT amount money Humanity could easily progress (and alot faster) if all research and science was funded without limits simply for the sake of progress and betterment... but most humans are lazy and content, and human leaders are selfish, and often stunting or slowing our progress is better than progress if it can maintain a flow of money, throw in a few wars from time to time to distract or kill off some people, funnel some money into your back pockets (Haliburton and Blackwater, Rumsfield and Chanie during the 2nd Gulfwar etc)... humanity sigh. if we fought no wars, and everything we ever spent on death had and was funneled into 100% scientific research of all kinds we'd be so god damn more advanced right now ti would be unbelievable. Susan isnt that strong of a telepath (barely even a p1), its just that shes inferring that given they arent a threat anymore, they must have killed the Captain... take out the head and ignore the body.
Susan's reaction at the end of the episode gets me everytime its very well done On your question about was it the crew with Johns wife that woke the Shadows I think that is confirmed in a B5 book but not 100% if its cannon it should be because later issues that come in show are dealt with in books and they are cannon it is an interesting point of view as you say we have evolved are tech massively through war and conflict especially ww2 while I read somewhere that counties that are peace for say centuries stagnate because they grow comfortable and have nothing pushing them to improve you can see the Shadows point of view its more there methods that is wrong on the old guy I get the feeling he has been there alot longer than the Icarus crew or maybe he is something mascaraing as Human for this meeting as he seems to have a lot of power for just a human working for them
The book is called "The Shadow Within" and from what I've read, the Anna storyline IS canon, though the rest not necessarily. Still worth a read I'd say :D
@@mayra3277 yea that’s it I have them all but it’s been sometime since I read them the last ones I did were the Psi corp trilogy which is why I figured they would be cannon
@@wolf99000 Still need to read that one! But yeah, from what I've heard the trilogies are canon, so is City of Sorrows and most of Shadow Within, but the other older books are not? Correct me if I'm wrong please, I've still only read a few of the books!
It is a bit weird about them waking up, for the reason I raised in the video....unless they sleep for a few hundred years, wakeup and then go back to sleep again. I also wish they had explained Justin a bit more.
@@CultTVSofa They do sleep for centuries. It's probably in some form of stasis that preserves them. They come back 1000 years later to launch another war in order to "help" the younger races again progress. The Icarus likely set off some type of advanced sensor that awoke the shadows out of their stasis early, before another 1000 years had technically passed.
Please remember to not post any spoilers or comment on any future events / characters. Please restrict your comments to this and previous episodes. Thanks :)
Midwinter answers lots of stuff....even how episodes were made! I love it. Best part is JMS answers fan questions from back then.
"what are you doing under my bed, Kosh" " I have always been here" lol
That made me laugh out loud :)
me too
re: Sheridan's destiny... "You have always been here." Seems Kosh thought it was destined to happen that way.
This is the absolute climax of the whole show.
G'Kar's speech along with the aftermath summary, at the end of this episode, is one of my favorite moments in all of the science fiction I've ever watched. Adam Nemoy paired up with JMS' writing, and that of the writer's room, is simply unmatched in my eyes.
I love G'Kar's Coda at the end of this: Citizen G'Kar : G'Quan wrote, "There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
I had no choice but to cut that to shreds I'm afraid
@@CultTVSofa Totally get it with fair use etc, very tricky to choose which bits to keep.
That speech is so great. Very fitting, astonishingly well delivered. One of the show's best quotes for sure.
It rips me to pieces every time I watch it. (even reading it.)
@@dcsignal5241 it means a lot to me as it reminds me that my fight with the black dog is a daily one and one always worth fighting.
At this point we know that Sinclair would have been the original plan for the show. For sad reasons, Sheridan had to replace Sinclair. In the original story line it would have been Catherine Sakai, the prospector from S1, who would have stumbled upon Z'ha'dum.
Oh God... the level of impact on the feels! Mine are aching just at the thought....
And so it begins
To get the authentic Babylon-5-watching experience - like those of us who saw this on TV in 1996 - wait about 6 months before finding out what happens next. This isn't even a cliffhanger, it's a cliff-plummeter.
To be honest, at the speed I am currently producing the videos, we are halfway there :)
The scans they were comparing were indeed of Anna Sheridan and one of the telepaths they rescued. The Shadows did remove Anna's implant.
But her personality could not be recovered. She was forever changed.
@@brandonreed09 Correct.
And the telepath scan was actually that of Bester's lover, Carolyn Sanderson! Hard to catch while watching, but one of those great easter eggs that are very satisfying to know.
I also gave thought to the notion that this one city was all of Z'ha'dum and I rejected it. But I expect that this is sort of the capital and this took out a significant portion of the leadership.
Difficult to tell from what we saw. I can't imagine there would be lots of domes around though, as it would be more obvious from space
@@CultTVSofa The Domes could've been Holographic to look like solid Rock, with the Shadow's technology being millions of years advanced then that theory is very plausible!
It's the capital city. There are other subterranean cities.
Good point. I bet they wish they had built a solid roof now though :)
Z'ha'dum is the name of the planet.
Kosh wouldn't tell Sheridan to jump unless there were some way he could survive by doing so. He did tell him before that "if you go to Z'ha'dum you will die" but that doesn't mean you will stay dead. These Vorlons are so cryptic sometimes.
It's been so cool watching these with you while finally watch this in it's entirety. You've got a fun sense of humor and adding those tidbits above the video, on the right, is so unique when it comes to reaction channels. I normally hate reaction channels but I love yours. 😎🛋 Having the same sense of humor I do also helps. 🤣
I am so sorry you have the same sense of humour and I hope you can get some help soon :)
As to the future Sheridan, the temporal displacement transports your consciousness into a different time period, so that was future Sheridan physically with Delenn but with the consciousness of the temporarily displaced Sheridan. The samething goes for Delenn, when she traveled to the night that she saw Anna alive and dropped the glass. I'm not sure why the bodies of the temporally displaced disappear but I'm sure it's only their consciousness that travels.
Oh, yes Anna and Delenn. Remember the old saying that the Minbari do not tell the whole truth. The "need to know" attitude. I am pretty sure Kosh was the one to decide at the time.
Londo's reaction to his "promotion" again shows that he is very savvy when it comes to politics. He immediately realizes that it is more of a leash than a reward.
Shuttle bay: Remember "War WIthout End"? When Zathras arrived in a shuttle he could get on board. So in a sense the shuttle bay is established.
Oh, yes - the Shadows philosophy: In a sense they do have a point, but the price .... I think we can agree that it is far too high.
You are right, of course - the philosophy of both Vorlons and Shadows is wrong, but given their massive superiority in arms and technology, what can the "younger races" do?
Yes, the White Star entering the atmosphere is really well done!
Answers will come ... and what happened to Garibaldi is another unanswered question.
Yeah, that was very much an episode that JMS calls a "WHAM!" episode.
Like others, I love the G'Kar monologue at the end of the season. Now what? - Season 4 is coming ...
Looking forward to your season wrap-up.
Capitalism is a good substitute for war, in terms of progress through conflict. Its the less lethal option.
Please keep in mind that according to the original script, Anna Sheridan was supposed to be Catherine Sakai, Jeffrey Sinclair's girlfriend. But since Sinclair had to be replaced by Sheridan, Sakai had to be replaced as well.
Thank You for thinkfull reaction.
This episode is the connection point of many lines, sets a suspense and open door to the mystery.
Anna's new personality was a kind of symbiotic part of shadows battleship mind. Even her scream by the light of the 'artificial stars' expressivly reminds of their war shriek.
Thank you :) Someone else said about the scream and I hadn't noticed. I even have her scream followed by the Shadow ship screaming.....not sure how I missed that :)
Your original thought was right though. Sheridan was always in the future. Sheridan occupied his future self's position in the future. He does always survive Z'ha'dum if that future happens.
4:28 "Sheridan, was it always destined that he would be here?"
What did Zathrus say... "You are the one that was, you are the one that is, you are the one that will be"
It's odd though. Sinclair I can understand was destined to be there, because of Valen. I haven't seen any evidence (so far) of Sheridan having to be where he is. That obviously may come later on though.
@@CultTVSofa So, at what point did you realise Sinclair was Valen? I don't think there was much evidence beforehand, and yet he was destined to be there. Sometimes you just need a little faith (and no spoilers...).
@@CultTVSofa I think it was either Zathrus proving he could see ahead with the machine or an understanding that shadows and vorlons have predictive capabilities as well and when you think about it all the signs for Delenn and John were there by the time Sheridan left.
I just meant that Sinclair was destined, because he was Valen....he is in the past and set things in motion that led to him becoming Valen in the future. I don't think I have seen anything like that about John. He just seems to be the right person, in the right place at the right time. But could someone else do that?
@@CultTVSofa I don't think John was destined so much as maneuvered into that position.
And that was the season 3 finale!
This episode is the second highest rated B5 episode based on IMDb scores, between Severed Dreams and War w/out End.
6:46 Those nukes have 10 times the yield of the Tsar Bomba, the most powerful nuke ever created. I almost feel sorry for the Shadows.
25:20 That sounded a lot like the scream a Shadow vessel makes.
I didn't notice the scream and you are right!
One thing to keeps in mind is that, due to various factors, the damage that a nuclear (fission or fusion) bomb produces, doesn't scale up 1:1 (or anywhere near) with the tonnage rating increase. If it did, Tsar Bomba would have produced a fire ball of 1200 km in diameter. In reality, it was an 8 km fireball compared to 370 m for the Hiroshima one, making it about 22 times larger. Things scale similarly with the "total destruction" blast radius. Still horrifying though. They didn't even test it with the last stage attached, which would have increased the yield to 100 mt. But yeah, Sheridan had the right tool to completely annihilate a sprawling alien megapolis. BTW, I don't think that having two of them would increase the blast, as one is bound to go off a fraction of a millisecond earlier and annihilate the other one. I think that the real reason for him bringing two of them was having a backup, in case the first bomb turned out to be a dud and failed to go off.
I agree about the 2 bombs. Why take one thermonuclear bomb when you can take 2, with 1 as a backup!!! I always do :)
You have one advantage we didn't have when we first watched this.. you don't have the wait till the next episodes.
The actress that played Anna in this episode was actually Bruce's wife at the time. They are now also divorced. JMS is the master in foreshadowing 😉
Oh my. I knew about that, but hadn't considered that it was one more of the many many B5 synchronicities...
I did have trivia in the last episode and this one about their marriage and wedding :)
Having Telepaths in the shadow ships gives them real time communications, in the same way that the Centauri Emperor always had 2 Telepaths with him, so he could know what was happening back home in real time. (The Emperor that G'kar wanted to assassinate).
Those telepaths were a special breed. Human telepaths can't communicate that far away.
Ahhhh, I had forgotten that. Good point.
Assuming they were human telepaths in the Shadow ships....
@@CultTVSofa as far as we know the Shadows had only implanted human telepaths and had only made alliances with the Psi Corp. Those telepath implants never arrived for the Shadows since Bester and B5 intercepted them. So we don't know if the Shadows actually ever got any telepaths on board of any of their ships.
This episode took place at least seven years after one shadow ship rescued another one that had been buried on Mars, so no, they were not all asleep when the Icarus landed. IMHO, Delenn was speculating a bit.
Also the shadows had tried to destroy Babylon 4 and we can assume they had sabotaged the 3 that came before that.
Remember Kosh is never wrong. Everything he says has a purpose. Also If you want to know what happened to the crew of the Icarus there is a novel I think called The Shadow Within that goes into how they all fared against the shadows when they landed. (in more detail)
When I read you had written 'Kosh is never wrong' - I had his voice in my head saying 'The lottery numbers for Saturday are 4, 12, 15, 18, 22 and 33'. My head is a very strange place :)
@@CultTVSofa Check if Kosh suddenly spouts numbers, we know what to do with them.
One of the greatest cliffhangers ever made.
Sheridan doing some mental gymnastics to make Delenn’s no mean yes.
For clarification, Sheridan was alive in those future scenes. He time jumped into his future body from Babylon 4.
JMS has complained about the city looking too human but it was too late to change it.
I love that ending monologue plus the imagery and music. The summer of ‘97 was a long one.
Ah, I didn't get that about him jumping into the future. Because he physically disappeared in the past, I assumed it was his body in the future
@@CultTVSofa Both Sheridan and Delenn had some wrinkles added and some grey hair but it was a little too subtle to see clearly when then were under the harsh lighting of those scenes.
Plus I miss things like that sometimes because of the lights shining on me.
Also delen mentioned them having a child called David.
Could it.....could it be me!!! No, it isn't :)
If you remember the episode where they rescued a bunch of telepaths with Bester, you'll know why Sheridan's wife would've never consented to be scanned.
Please keep in mind that according to the original script, Anna Sheridan was supposed to be Catherine Sakai, Jeffrey Sinclair's girlfriend. But since Sinclair had to be replaced by Sheridan, Sakai had to be replaced as well.
John "Nuke'm" Sheridan folks!
Anyone else can't watch the penultimate scene without yelling "Catch this YA BASTARDS!"
I loved this episode when I saw it air here in the UK, as you said- it needs a re-watch: there's just so much crammed in to take on board in such a complex plot!
I remember giving myself a headache at the time trying to think through timelines, & who going where would effect what! It always confused me just HOW disruptive Sheridan was to their plans: sure he'd united most of the races into a force for good, but unless anyone else had been approached off-screen by the Shadows- they were only pulling strings with the Centauri & Earth Gov, both of which were going to plan!
I always figured that when they failed to convince John of their cause, they grabbed Garibaldi with the view of ''If we can't turn Sheridan....''
This cliff-hanger ending was so well done, it just invited so much examination & speculation - I remember my Brother & I literally talked about it all day! Definitely one of the best cliff-hangers of this, or any other, sci-fi show!
By this stage, just about everyone else had been approached by the Shadows off-screen. A ranger spells it all out to Delenn during the episode "Severed Dreams". Once the Centauri started threatening everyone around them, the Shadows then approached the members of the non-aligned worlds and offered to help them protect their borders from the Centauri. Once these worlds saw the power that an alliance with the Shadows offered them, "an alliance of defence, grew into the dream of conquest" and they in turn started attacking their neighbours, which allowed the Shadows to make even more deals and encourage even more aggression behind the scenes.
The Shadows only started with the Centauri. When Morden first came to the station was specifically looking for a race that would use their power to threaten everyone around them, to scare all the other races into accepting the Shadows' influence. This is why the Narn were of no interest to the Shadows despite their bloodlust - once they were done exacting their revenge on the Centauri they had no ambition to continue fighting any further.
This is how Sheridan is so disruptive to their plans. The Shadows want everyone at each other's throats, fighting a life or death competition of survival of the fittest. Sheridan (and by extension Babylon 5) is inspiring alliances, forcing continued dialogue between warring parties to resolve issues and providing alternatives to war. If Sheridan and B5 weren't there, the Shadows would have a much easier time spreading distrust and convincing all the worlds to turn on each other.
13:20 "Why would they give that technology up?" Excellent question.
23:51 "You do what you're told!" People who say you have all the freedom you want, the other guy is all about being your mom, are either the same or more often worse, under the consequence of pleasure island. So much to offer, all right now, until it's not permitted. Do forgive the Pinocchio reference, couldn't resist and I smile just thinking about deceased Doctor Cricket taking over Geppetto's house for his practice.
G'kar's writing at the end is beautiful. Few creators can make me not only love narration but take something from it that truly lasts: Peter Jackson with Tolkien's beautiful work opening spoiler, "And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost, history became legend, legend became myth." Joss Whedon end of season 2 spoiler, "Bottom line is, even if you see'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So, what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are." and JMS as seen here, along with their remarkable writing staff of course. I always look for the familiar, something my soul remembers before I had flesh. I think it's the biggest thing that brings me back.
When I was watching your reaction on War without End on that scene when future Delenn begs present Sheridan in the future not to go to Z'Ha'Dum in Sheridan's future that would have been Delenn's past (goddamn time travel is confusing).... so, where was I? Ok, look. You than made a guess that Sheridan would go to Z'Ha'Dum specifically because Delenn told him not to go. It sounded really funny as a guess in given circumstances. But I was watching this and thinking to myself.... Dude! You have no idea that you are right! Just could not tell you so it would be a spoiler. :D
I have to give a Like just for the HILAREOUS thumbnail of a Shadow in front of a White Picket Fence! Too funny!
I always took Ivonnava's saying "Sheridan had died" as more of a deductive reasoning of the Shadows SUDDEN, panicked departure from Babylon 5 space. (that he must have done something BIG & probably suicidal)
But JMS is very good at leaving stuff ambivalent, so you can INTERPRET it however you like! (Including. . . DID Sheridan succeed in Changing the future? Did he NOT go to Z'ha'dum originally? Or did he do what he ALWAYS did? And it will ALL play out just like he saw it?)
Also, I actually watched Little House on the Prairie (Gen X-er) when I was young, and I have to say, Melissa Gilbert (Anna) grew up to be quite the Beautiful woman! Not to mention rather talented. I mean seriously, that "But I can love you. . . just as well as she did." was spine chillingly CREEPY!
Another great episode & great review. I always enjoy seeing other people's reactions to Babylon 5. Not to mention, any new (or different) theories they come up with for stuff.
Whilst I would like to take the credit, I didn't put the Shadow in front of the post. It was more in front of the sign. The post just happened to be there :)
Anna's line was creepy....especially when you realise that she really is his wife in real life as well :)
@@CultTVSofa Yep, I knew that. (even back then) What I DIDN"T know (until after I watched your LAST reaction) was that they had Divorced some time ago.
Sad. I don't know why I was surprised. (given the ABYSMAL state of Marriage in the West. Much less, in Hollywood.) But, for some reason, I was hoping they were still together.
Normally, an attractive wife, sashaying up & trying to seduce her man, would be very welcomed. But as Fry from Futurama once said, "I'm so Scare-roused!". lol
I absolutely adore this episode. The pacing, the status quo shift, the music. But, some things have always bothered me.
How does Anna have access to Sheridan's quarters? How does she just walk in? My head-canon says she knew some access code provided by the Shadows, but it's never explained. That's a serious security breach!
I remember being on the edge of my seat throughout the last part of this episode, and that end speech by G'Kar. Still amazing!
I agree it is a big unanswered question. Someone else pointed out how easily Mr Morden and the Shadows were able to enter Kosh's quarters previously. They seem to have their ways......
She was his wife, chances are she knew what access code he would pick.
Most people assume the older guys preceded the Icarus crew.
I wish they had explained him a bit more
THE irony that at the time of this filming/airing, Bruce and Melissa actually WERE husband and wife - that ended a few years later
The membari leadership was arguing over whether a shadow war was coming before the Earth/membari war
Yes, time travel is confusing lol. That said, it is more straightforward here than in many other sci-fi franchises that have time travel.
There are a lot of moments when I wish I'd been able to see B5 on its original one. This was NOT one of them. Being able to continue with the next episode after a few days was such an advantage, I don't know if I could have waited months!
Looking forward to your season review by the way. For my part, this one is my favourite season - though you'll only be able to fully judge after you're all the way through, I'm curious to hear what you thought!
Hmmm, no pressure then :)
Depends on if you were in the UK or US. The UK had to wait 6 weeks between S3 and S4, but the US literally got the S4 premiere the next week LOL
@@ericjohnson9623 Neither for me actually :) Germany/Netherlands, no idea what it'd have been like here (I'm a bit too young to have watched the show as it aired). But there's at least one good thing for the US crowd then, considering I heard they could barely find the show with how much it was switched around!
Best thumbnail ever.
Damn Welsh Shadows :)
You're wrong about Morden.... he's a volunteer and not "controlled". The Shadows lied to him and told him they could use their superior tech to restore somethings that he had lost... his wife and daughter were killed in a jumpgate sabotage explosion. The Shadows said that they were just "disembodied" in hyperspace and that their incredibly advanced science could bring them back if Morden would just serve. The pendant around his neck had a locket with the images of his family within. (From books considered canon - they also contain some great chilling passages about Anna's "life" as the CPU of a Shadow Battle Crab)
The Icarus crew woke the Shadows on Z'ha'dum but didn't set the major events in motion afaik.
🤔 they may not have been in total control of the events that followed but they were participants in those events. Morden being one example.
@@brandonreed09 Sure, but CultTVSofa was wondering whether the Icarus landing set into motion the entire plot. It didn't.
Surely waking them did set everything in motion though. If they were still asleep / hibernating, the war would not happen yet?
@@CultTVSofa As far as I remember they had already set parts in motion when they were active several centuries before.
FUN RESEARCH.. Looking at some tables about events/ongoing trnasmissions that are measured in Megatons of Joules, etc etc. THese Nukesa re ~500,000 Megatons if I remember G'kar correctly.. Accordign to the loose resrach I did, that puts them at ~20500 times more powerful than the Mount Saint Helens explosion. A more recent comparison, in natural terms, as opposed to manmade
IKEA is everywhere.
They really are!! That was obviously their Fall......of the Universe collection. :)
Swedish meatballs
I'm guessing Mollari would have to be splitting his time becuase the Centauri Republic (really empire) is super aristocratic and accumulation of titles/offices is common in those types of states. Absenteeism would be common in those situtations but Mollari essentially said he would do is best to do both.
Z'ha'dum is like the capital world of the Shadows. The site is (likely) a central area.
But, it's most likely that Shadows are all over the planet.... But as races go... I'm sure the Vorlons, Shadows, and other First Ones have small populations. Often acting thru surrogates.
25:17: This is also breaking the glass ceiling... Consider what that could mean in respect to the old and the young races.
She is Bruce Boxlitner's wife.
Progress through conflict is only a thing since the people who can usually effect change tend to not want change unless its instant benefits for themselves (money power control etc) as such nothing gets done unless for those reasons and conflict makes such people money, power and control. Hell all wars (on both sides) have always been about personal gain of a few at the top. People complain about NASA getting 20$billion a year... yet dont complain about the 777$billion per year in military spending (and that amount doesnt take into account black budgets which go into the Trillions)... Imagine what NASA or and other research institution could do with THAT amount money
Humanity could easily progress (and alot faster) if all research and science was funded without limits simply for the sake of progress and betterment... but most humans are lazy and content, and human leaders are selfish, and often stunting or slowing our progress is better than progress if it can maintain a flow of money, throw in a few wars from time to time to distract or kill off some people, funnel some money into your back pockets (Haliburton and Blackwater, Rumsfield and Chanie during the 2nd Gulfwar etc)... humanity sigh.
if we fought no wars, and everything we ever spent on death had and was funneled into 100% scientific research of all kinds we'd be so god damn more advanced right now ti would be unbelievable.
Susan isnt that strong of a telepath (barely even a p1), its just that shes inferring that given they arent a threat anymore, they must have killed the Captain... take out the head and ignore the body.
The Shadows keep reminding me of a certain Pat Benatar song: ruclips.net/video/OIpVjBveSYw/видео.html
🤔 Promo-SM!!
Susan's reaction at the end of the episode gets me everytime its very well done On your question about was it the crew with Johns wife that woke the Shadows I think that is confirmed in a B5 book but not 100% if its cannon it should be because later issues that come in show are dealt with in books and they are cannon
it is an interesting point of view as you say we have evolved are tech massively through war and conflict especially ww2 while I read somewhere that counties that are peace for say centuries stagnate because they grow comfortable and have nothing pushing them to improve you can see the Shadows point of view its more there methods that is wrong
on the old guy I get the feeling he has been there alot longer than the Icarus crew or maybe he is something mascaraing as Human for this meeting as he seems to have a lot of power for just a human working for them
The book is called "The Shadow Within" and from what I've read, the Anna storyline IS canon, though the rest not necessarily. Still worth a read I'd say :D
@@mayra3277 yea that’s it I have them all but it’s been sometime since I read them the last ones I did were the Psi corp trilogy which is why I figured they would be cannon
@@wolf99000 Still need to read that one! But yeah, from what I've heard the trilogies are canon, so is City of Sorrows and most of Shadow Within, but the other older books are not? Correct me if I'm wrong please, I've still only read a few of the books!
It is a bit weird about them waking up, for the reason I raised in the video....unless they sleep for a few hundred years, wakeup and then go back to sleep again. I also wish they had explained Justin a bit more.
@@CultTVSofa They do sleep for centuries. It's probably in some form of stasis that preserves them. They come back 1000 years later to launch another war in order to "help" the younger races again progress. The Icarus likely set off some type of advanced sensor that awoke the shadows out of their stasis early, before another 1000 years had technically passed.