There was a lot that got cut out of the video since I felt like I was repeating myself towards the end. Here's one of the more interesting bits I thought still might be worth sharing: Here’s a little thought experiment of my own. Imagine that you’re actually in a video game world. Doesn’t matter which, but for sake of illustration, let’s say, the world of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Not to say you’re in simply in the land of Cyrodil, but that you are in the video game with all the limitations that entails. You would very quickly feel trapped. You couldn’t confide in your virtual friends, because you can only choose a few stock dialogue options, not that it matters, since you already know that that your NPC friends would not be able to answer those kinds of questions even if you were able to express yourself. There is no way out and the world is static, barring any story events that cause world state changes. Well, plot twist. What I just described was a dream I had a year ago. I vividly remember going into an Inn, trying to talk to the friendly NPC owner about my problem, and only being able to say “rumors.” I’m not trying to make this channel my dream journal, but that dream certainly gave me something to think about, and it’s pretty relevant since it probably explains what’s going on in my subconscious that makes me such a sucker for the kind of thing that Toby Fox is doing. That dream actually made me feel this profound sense of existential dread, like I was just oppressed by the very nature of reality. And then I woke up and remembered that depending on how you look at things, that might actually be the case. That line of thinking probably ties into why I love it when games explore this concept. I sympathize with the plight of Spamton, since I apparently got to experience the same circumstances.
@@Fenrick Sounds like an interesting dream (apart from the existential dread it caused). While being in an actual game world may be fun depending on which game it's from, I know what you mean about the issues with being literally in a world with the limitations of the game it's in. Do you think it would be worse to be in a game where the plot ultimately has an end point where nothing changes once it's reached or to be in a more open-ended one like World of Warcraft or FF14 where new things would happen every so often before eventually ceasing to change once game updates stop happening?
Very interesting dream! Thank you very much for sharing it! It reminds me a lot of "Doki Doki Literature Club", the despair that takes Monika when she realizes that her world is just a dating sim, and how she tries obsessively to reach out to the player, because the player is the only "real" thing with which she can interact from her position.
@@tempestfennac9687 I did give that a little thought. I guess at the end of the day the biggest difference is that it has to end eventually. Also the line of thinking arguably falls apart if you look at a sandbox game that doesn't even have an "end state..." but I guess that can be considered a separate genre.
"your choices don't matter" was always directed at Kris, not at the player. "No one can choose who they are in this world" THAT was directed at the player.
@@pablopereyra7126 well i mean if you can't choose who you are then you're kris but you didnt want to be kris because you wanted to be who you made but also who tf is that guy that discarded our vessel
Spamton doesn’t actually die. If you fill your inventory up it’s revealed that the items Spamton drops as are actually him, just like Jevil. Kris is probably more upset about Spamton’s implications and circumstance.
Maybe death is too strong a word, but he did lose his agency at least. We've already seen one instance of a character reacting to Jevil as an item so maybe we'll hear something else from him in the future.
@@radicool8328 yeah, snowgrave instantly kills anything it touches, proved by using it on a maus. however, the attack might have been ice shock, either way, he's frozen to death.
I feel like it's incredibly difficult to try to analyze Deltarune right now, as we're still only in the first act. There's at least 7 chapters, and with a typical 3-act structure, that would mean we've probably only *just* hit the rising action, or are just about to.
@@Fenrick it certainly is fun to speculate, but it feels like building Ikea furniture with half the parts missing and no instructions, right now. Still fun to do with a lot to learn, but ultimately your either left with a jumbled mess or half a table that just will not stay upright. Too bad the next batch of parts won't be for another couple years.
@@aerynboyer I honestly wouldn’t care if any of these theories are wrong or half-true, they are so interesting and it keeps my hype for chapter 3 alive while also leaving a lot more thoughts out there in the open for you to decide.
@@MsSlagar I think they meant act as in the classic 3 act structure that is popular when describing movies. There are certain story beats that signal the transition from one point in the plot to another point in the plot.
The arrangement between Kris and the Soul is very interesting. I agree it's mutually beneficial, in that it's our power that can cleanse fountains and we're probably the reason the story kicks off the way it does, and Kris is our way of interacting with the world. BUT I would also argue it's mutually non-beneficial. Kris is obviously distraught by the idea that a puppet cannot live without its puppeteer, and I still think they have some disdain for us. But on our side, we were brought into this world with a promise of a vessel that we could freely control. We're not part of this arrangement of our own free will and if we'd had an actual empty slate, we wouldn't had to trample all over Kris' choices. It's also why I don't think the game could ever imply we're a bad person for controlling Kris - it's not the kind of story that Toby Fox would tell ("You interact with my content and that makes you a bad person" is not a good moral of the story) and we cannot know what Kris' true feelings are about our dialogue options until they happen. We're clumsy and ignorant, and not unlike an elephant in a room full of expensive pottery, bound to accidentally break a vase here and there. Now, on the subject of, "Your choices don't matter." Toby Fox has said that Deltarune only has one ending and I'm inclined to believe him - after all, this fits perfectly within the theme of determinism in the game. Snowgrave is, indeed, the player rebelling against the idea that there is only one set path. It's different than Undertale Genocide in that it requires you to go so off-instinct that you're essentially trying to break out of the confines of the code, rather than Genocide which seemed to respond naturally to your choices. However, if DR only has one ending, then our choices not mattering will still hold true in the end. I like to see the concept of Choice in Deltarune as the player and Kris tugging on either side of a rope with equal strength. As long as the player does not let go - continue playing the game and controlling Kris - even if Kris slashes tires, and creates fountains, we'll take our control back and their choices cannot matter. And as long as Kris does not let go - tearing out the soul and going off on their own for a limited time - we also cannot enforce our will on the world in the exact way we want to.
@@MsSlagar If you are being needlessly sarcastic to me, you might want to check the Deltarune website. Under the FAQ section, it says, "Q: How many endings are there? A: One."
@@MsSlagar Eh, I don't think the question mark is enough to make me think that there will definitely be multiple endings. We'll see in a couple years, I suppose. As a sidenote, it'll be good to keep in mind that aaaallll the different ending monologues for the Undertale Neutral routes count as 'one ending'.
My theory is that the soul is in fact Kris's soul, but some innate property of human souls allows us to control them. They can remove the soul, but being without a soul is probably hell and so they have to come back to it eventually.
I doubt this. The player character in deltarune is very obviously disconnected from the actual world of deltarune and there are quite a few hints of this. When chapter 1 was first released the undertale twitter started saying a bunch of strange things, i wont go into it but the basic gist is that the person talking is most likely gaster and he's inviting you to be a part of a sort of experiment aka deltarune. Then there's also sans dialogue out right saying that we are the same player who played deltarune.
@@flamo2666 Well it would make sense for Kris to be somewhat of an outcast because they’re the only human in their whole town. I’m not sure how the rest of what you said contradicts my theory though.
@@flamo2666 that is literally the exact thing i am saying. kris _already_ had a soul, their own soul, and now we're just controlling it. the video said that kris probably didn't have a soul of their own and the one in game was from the player, and I'm disagreeing with that.
Towards the end you asked if Kris is actually friends with anyone throughout the game, or if it's just the Soul doing all this, but there are some moments showing that Kris does think of Susie, at least, as a friend. It mostly bleeds through like their other characteristics, in like cutscenes or how other characters react to how they say something, but either way, those are things we can't control. One really good example of this was the fight with King Spade in ch1, when Spade attacked Susie and knocked her down, and just when he was about to knock her out, Kris sprung into action, moving in front of her, despite Spade sending similar attacks to both Kris and Ralsei. (Basically, despite being weakened, Kris still went to protect Susie on their own, out of our control) Another instance is when Kris calls Toriel in ch2 (and maybe ch1, like after they've left the Dark World), that they tell her they've made a new friend, which is Susie. We have no control over how they word things, so I think that when they say that Susie is a new friend, for example, they are being genuine. Then there's stuff like what happened after the Pacifist Spamton NEO fight, where only Susie was able to make Kris smile, and despite Ralsei offering his scarf to Kris, from what Susie says, it seems that Kris asked to wear Susie's jacket. All of this still makes me wonder how Susie will react upon finding out about this whole Soul situation, but I feel like as Kris spends more time with Susie, they kinda are separating themselves from us, the player (I have absolutely no evidence for that it's just a vibe I get idk), so maybe Susie will be able to tell that it is *Kris* that is friends with Susie, that they are choosing to spend time with her and stuff, not just the player's control over them. At least, I hope so. (I just really love their friendship so much I hope that nothing too bad happens to them please Toby don't make Susie hate Kris I beg ;-; ) I also definitely agree with one of your last points, that it doesn't seem like this Soul situation is new to Kris, at least, that ch1 isn't the first time they've had to deal with it. I've kinda had the feeling for a while, especially after playing through it myself, that there doesn't seem to be any hesitation on Kris's part about like, removing the Soul (also the way they look to the screen, grin creepily, and brandish a knife, they know what they're doing, and know who is doing this to them, at least, they know the most immediate thing that is doing this to them). I don't think it's theirs, and I have no estimation of how long this has been going on, but I don't think this is particularly new to them. I also don't think they can really,,, live? without the Soul, they need a Soul to live and function normally (given how they stumble when the Soul is removed, I think they could theoretically live and go about their life, but others would 100% notice, and I doubt they'd be able to live long without serious side effects), which honestly is really terrible for them. The idea that they've had to deal with basically being a Sim to whoever/whatever is controlling them, even before we pick up the game. Overall, I personally am suuuuper curious about who Kris is as a person, and am completely fine with the idea that Kris is not like me, because they're not supposed to be, they are their own person, and I made the choice of playing the game (which I may or may not feel a noticeable amount of guilt over, despite enjoying the game a lot 😬😅). And despite what you said in the video, about a potential "best" ending being one where we choose the things that Kris seems to prefer still not being a great thing because they're still not actually the one making those decisions on their own, I still kinda hope that by the end of the game, some kind of middle ground can be found between Kris and the Soul (after all, we the players didn't choose to inhabit some random teenager, we came into the game with the idea that we were creating our own person, and then this happened, but I doubt Kris would care much about that).
I think that there's no question that Kris feels strongly towards Susie, but the question is more about whether the Kris that Susie likes is the "real" Kris. I have a feeling Susie would be the kind of person to say "I don't understand any of this SOUL stuff, but I know we are bros." And I do like the idea that Kris might be able to learn from what the player does.
@@Fenrick I think Susie does like the real Kris. There are a LOT of implied lines from Kris that we simply don't hear, Kris always seems to say things they way they want to, and she even seems to enjoy chillin' out with them by the lake which might technically be initiated by the player but the actual act of sitting down is not something I told them to do. I was surprised when it happened even and said "awww, they're hangin' out!" With the exception of snowgrave and despite all the dialogue options and forcing them to go talk to people so much their social anxiety starts to make them sick(Kris I'm so sorry I know how you feel but I gotta read this dialogue), it's incredibly difficult to actually make them act out of character. It feels as if Kris is maybe defiant in this, perhaps even unknowingly. Noelle only notices something's off in a couple instances, and when we do the bad things. Even the moss she isn't questioning that Kris WOULD do it, just that they ARE.
@@ElectricBarrier Susie can at least respond to Kris's nonverbal cues, which overwhelmingly seem positive towards her. There's an image floating around with like 20 different reactions Kris has that show a positive attitude towards Susie.
@@Fenrick Yeah Kris at least 100% likes Susie and wants to be her friends. One of the posts on Determinators, the blog responsible for the fantastic CHARActer Analysis, shows a lot of evidence for that. Some even suggesting Kris may have wanted to be friends before the events of the game! Kris "looks shocked" for some reason at the idea they'd wanna get Susie expelled, and a good reason for that might be that... well they liked her to begin with and wouldn't. And then, I think that there's definitely enough of Kris still there that Susie's end of the friendship isn't based on falsehood.
Building upon that, and this is soemthing I firmly believe; Yeah Kris is obviously better friends with Susie than Ralsei and I think that's because Kris knows something we can only theorize about. Kris knows Ralsei is Asriel. When Ralsei tells "Kris"(but he's really taking to YOU) TWICE to immagine what Susie was doing, we explicitly see the heart (us) with her. I believe during these scenes Ralsei and Kris, the real Kris, talk, and that they're planning soemthing sketchy. But mostly I think that Ralsei is Asriel, who lied about going to college and spent all his time in the dark world avoiding his real problems. And while Kris doesn't outright hate Asriel, there's more if a realistic somber jealousy of an under-achieving adopted child vs their popular well loved brother who gets all the trophies.
While it's clear Kris dislikes being controlled by the player, they enjoy the adventures. It's possible Kris opened that dark fountain at the end of chapter 2 so they could have another dark world adventure with Susie. During Snowgrave, Spamton says "DON'T BLAME ME WHEN YOU'RE [Crying] IN A [Broken Home]" so what if being free from the player (assuming it wouldn't kill Kris) would mean no more adventures? Back to being a lonely kid on their broken home.
I've seen somewhere someone pointing out that kris might do what they did in the end of chapter 2 to make undyne believe them about the dark fountain since they tried to tell her about it in chapter 1 but she didn't take it seriously
Something that struck me about the end of Chapter 2. We don't know if Kris managed to return the Soul to their body after opening the fountain. Chapter 3 might see Susie stuck with a soulless Kris and she won't know what is wrong with them at first. She might find out about the Soul that way by tracking it down independently of Kris. Even if she only sees them put it back inside, it will still raise red flags for her if they immediately return to 'normal' afterwards.
I agree that that'd be interesting, but from the slight movements of Kris holding the soul as the screen fills up, it looks like he's raising it up, almost giving it a better look at the dark world like "haha, look at this, this was alllll me, loser." before moving his arm to the left, assumedly to put it back in. Still, the idea of a soulless Kris (maybe we finally get to possess that Vessel from the start of the game at some point?), nonetheless a Kris who could actually talk to us, and the other characters, by using a proper dialogue box would be awesome to see, and is also something I think might happen as well.
Whenever Ralsei tells Kris(and us) to imagine what Susie is doing(when she is away from us) we can give commands to her, she kinda hears Kris' voice but can’t understand what is said and assumes she’s just hearing things, so she ignores our commands, but in fights we can still control if she doges attacks or not, so we still have some influence over her, what if a soulless Kris' opens the game for the possibility of us controlling other characters like Susie?
Theory: If Kris is scared of a outcome because they may become a NPC or die, then it could explain why Kris may or may not be the knight, to create dark fountains to continue the players game, so they don't lose control. If you like the theory, go all out in the reply section, I just thought up of this one and felt like I should share it.
I like to think that the knight is a separate entity and that Kris got the idea of making a new fountain after Queen coming up with the idea and how Susie, Berdley and Noelle were all laughing and having fun at the end. Susie even repeatedly tells Kris that she wants to go more adventures together which definitely had to influence Kris's view on the situation.
Also, maybe Kris wanted to show the police the dark world. There are dialogue options, but what if they're ALL what Kris wants to say? Slashing the tires and having Toriel dial emergency could definitely kill two birds with one stone. Make it harder to get to school, extending Susie's stay a little and also the point I mentioned earlier.
@@mrsuperheatran2794 yeah, if you learned how to create a fantasy world, where you could have a small adventure with your friends, make new ones and in the end by just closing the fountain that created it, there would be repercussions, wouldn’t you do it? At that point it would be like any other bonding activity.
@@mrsuperheatran2794 But that would bring into question why Kris would still do that on the Snowgrave Route after how it affected Noelle and (presumably) got Berdly killed.
@@johnathonturner2279 isn’t the snow grave route actually named weird route, so if we do the weird route things get weird and they don’t make sense anymore, because the story is there but we are fighting it so our actions can actually matter, but Toby said the game will have only one ending, but if the journey is going to make sense or if it is going to be weird is our choice.
you talking about 'your choices don't matter' makes me wonder if the game is not telling us that, but instead telling kris that, that they're choices don't matter, only ours do. just somthin to think about it.
@@TheCorty i missed this reply i'm sorry 😫 i didn't even think of that, but you might be right. who gaster is speaking to isn't exactly clear and the purpose of the vessel is unclear too. it doesn't have an in-game purpose but it may serve a narrative purpose, and that might have something to do with gaster and kris's arrangement, if they have one
Early on when the Queen asks for your opinion on death or being subjugated (or smth along those lines), if you pick "death" Kris shouts it ao happily and loudly that Susie remarks, "why did you say it so happily?!" I think that was supposed to be another hunt to the player
In Undertale, you kill nearly every single monster and you don’t look back. In Deltarune, your choices carry no meaning, but her choices do. You kill nearly every Darkner you come across, and you still don’t look back. But she does.
She? You mean Noelle? If Noelle is being influenced by the Player and has so much trouble saying no to it, I start to think the psychological idea of a choice may be on a scale or spectrum rather than a white or black "yes or no" kind of thing
Most poignant perspective I've heard on deltarune. So few games discuss the unique relationship between player and character in a video game. Toby Fox is a fucking genius. Thanks for the video!
I had a longer comment planned but I'd actually like to say 3, much shorter things. Maybe it's more interesting that way~ 1. Kris had a save file. We overwrite it, after hearing a monologue about how "you"(Kris) sometimes see this strange, shining light. If playing on a fresh file, you can see "Kris" LV 1, with a time of exactly 0 seconds or minutes. As if they saved, just once, when they awoke to this power. BEFORE we entered into the picture. 2. Kris always wanted to learn magic, will click unconsciously on demon summoning ads, and studied the occult with Catti. 3. Toby has said he hopes we can become friends with everyone.
Regarding #2 I noticed that as well. The game seems to tease Kris for the inability to use magic an awful lot, which is why Ralsei didn't want himself or Susie to "ACT" independently of Kris's turns. I never considered that it might be of significance though.
@@Fenrick The desire to use magic itself is probably just Kris wanting to fit in with monsters more. Judging by the fact Kris asked when their horns would grow in and wore the fake horns for a time, we can assume that despite no one ever seeming to care that he's a human, he still has hangups about not being so physically different. Though that particular sentence was actually hinting at... something else. What do you typically call it when some strange entity controlling someone's body? Might sound silly, but...
Another interesting point about Snowgrave; Neither you nor Kris are affecting the world, Noelle is. You just give her a little push. Now, looking at Kris, you can definitely see that he's more resistant to your actions, causing you both to effectively lose options, rather than gain them. I feel that, as the game goes on through the "Weird Route", we may slowly move from possessing Kris, to forcing others to do our bidding, nearly ignoring Kris entirely. Just a neat little thought that ties into my own theory of the Vessel returning, and us swapping to that to either help or hinder Kris and the gang, depending on our choices (ultimately leading to our choices "not mattering" when the Vessel ends up getting destroyed or removed in some way, and us having to go back to Kris to keep them alive, or give them their soul back, assuming the Determination soul isn't entirely ours.)
Kris goes exclusively by they/them pronouns, that's indisputable fact. All the characters use they/them for Kris, and Toby quietly corrected one of the dads on the anniversary stream, who were using he/him when talking about Kris. It flew over my head until this chapter too; I'd wrongly assumed Kris was male, just to be more easily distinguished from Frisk. I'm convinced the Determination soul is entirely ours, and that it carries over from Undertale... we control it entirely. Determination and a strong will are inseparable, yet I don't think we've seen the Determination soul act contradictory to the Player's will. If the Determination soul is so determined and isn't entirely ours... then why does it only do what we tell it to? Even when it floats towards another character when Ralsei suggests it, it's the Player that agrees to this through the dialogue options. I don't think the Player's "Proceed" in Snowgrave is a *little* push. Noelle's said a few times she's afraid of/has trouble saying no, even in Normal route... but there's evidence that suggests she isn't being persuaded gently. From what I've read (very slowly looking up stuff abt Snowgrave instead of playing it bc it upsets me) she is intimidated by the creepy and unfamiliar voice. A voice strong enough to control Kris in some ways they're highly resistant to, like throwing away the ball of junk in their pocket in chapter 1. I agree Kris is more strong-willed than Noelle tho, and it's Noelle reflecting the Player's choices instead of Kris that's more effective to derailing the default plot. This snowballing from Weird Route into later chapters sounds likely too. Idk how Kris feels about it... but for the first time, Snowgrave starts using the Player's own voice to direct another character even while Kris is on screen. I hope none of this comes across as hostile. Some people tell me I talk too aggressively, others say I'm not assertive enough. Trying to find a decent middle ground has been mostly trial-and-error, despite actively researching communication techniques and stuff surrounding that. I'm not used to discussing game theories with strangers, so I'm extra unsure here. Feel free to give or not give feedback
Maybe the "genocide route" involves you continuously brainwashing others to do your dirty work, which enrages Kris more and more and also loosens our hold on them, while alerting others to our presence. This results in Kris breaking out and fighting you, becoming the sans of this story. In the end the soul will be removed, but while in the normal route you may get a chance to say a nice goodbye to everyone and make amends with Kris, this timeline they will straight-up murder you, maybe even sacrifices themselves to do it.
I mean imagine some invisible force suddenly possess your body, running around inside you. Befriending people that annoy you by using your voice. That would piss me off.
I don't think the moral of the story is "You are a bad person for playing this videogame", because that isn't like Toby. He LOVES his community, why would he tell them all that it's wrong to experience the story?
@@pablopereyra7126 I don't think that will be the real moral of the game but Toby did subvert the RPG genre before. I don't put past him to make our playable character be against the player itself
5:16 From previous lore, upstairs book and Kris' movement we can deduce that Kris needs the SOUL for the Determination any lifeform needs to think and live. While they have residual amounts without it, they wouldn't be able to last. Flowey needed an industrial amount of it injected to live, and truechara needed to stick to mainchara to stay around. Just saying 6:04 Figures. I wasted all that time. 7:32 Yeah, this is the weak point for a lot of theories on the matter. Wait and see... 11:23 Kris repeatedly resists you in the Weird route. Best two examples is how they look troubled after Berdly dies and how you make them shamble at the hospital instead of moving them like normal.
Unknown: Your just a meaningless character in a video game. Sans: If I do not exist, then why even bother? Jevil: If I dont exist, then I can do anything! Spamton: If I dont exist, then I can be a [BIG SHOT]! Kris: If I dont exist, then I'll write my own ending!
The birdcage seems like it should be a huge deal for speculation yet it seems to almost never get brought up. It's not just a coincident that its there and the implications are huge.
i've been constantly trying to piece things together in my head, but it's never actually made sense until i watched this. great video,, i'll be here for the next :)
There's one thing that so few people take into account. The phrase of "Your choices don't matter." isn't directed at us, the player. It's directed at Kris, the puppet.
You are probably right, since it does say "your name is Kris." It's strange though, and there's a lot we don't know about the voice from the beginning. If it really is directed at Kris, it means that Kris was the one who chose the vessel as well.
Honestly, the whole arrangement between the player and Kris is a big reason why I do think Kris is the Knight; as that’s one of the few possibilities for who the Knight is that really add to any of the game’s themes. This idea that, at least initially and as far as both parties know, the player and player character are not only separate agents but adversarial agents, is a fascinating idea to explore.
Very good video. Kinda unrelated but have you played any nier games? They give you a lot to think about, like deltarune, but more philosophical than symbolical (idk if thats the right word to use its 3am)
@@Fenrick Oh mannnnnn, if you haven't you really should. There's a reason Yoko Taro had a quote in the undertale console port trailers, Nier seems like it was an influence on it. God I can't even really say why! Both the original and Automata are very, very good. Automata is a bit less relevant, but you should absolutely play it second. And if you like it, look into the Drakgengard games as well. They're tied to Nier in a very interesting and convoluted way, and the lore the games share runs DEEP.
@@starless267 Lol really? Great minds think alike, I guess. Well hopefully he's put aside the time to by now, I'm sure he'd get a lot out of it. EDIT: Oh he's played Automata at least. Replicant is really more relevant since they were both coming from a similar mindset I think.
@@starless267 No? I looked up the interview after I read your comment and he said that he put 22 hours into it and saw all the main endings. He joked about how he didn't do all the other joke endings because they might take a while, and Taro-san said he didn't need to.
@@ElectricBarrier honestly id play automata first, i dont wanna spoil anything obviously but theres a big plot thing that i feel is more impactful this way. Of course theres other things that would be better if replicant was played first too but still. Maybe its just because i played automata first that i think that but whatever
Excellent analyses of Kris, the player relationship, and the story as a whole. Also bless you for the Pathologic comparisons, I want to kiss you on the cheek
There definitely seems to be a pattern around the use of peons or proxies to achieve greater things (perhaps on a higher plane)... The Player & Kris Kris & The Player The Dark Worlds themselves Recruiting for Ralsei Following the Prophecy Ralsei vs The Player & Kris Manipulating battle w/ Suzie King's rule & his Pacifist defeat Lancer's MO Queen's MO & relationship with Noelle "Get the banana, Kris" (accepting might allow Queen to take control of Kris from the player in a later chapter?) Jevil's new revolving world / lives exchanged for EXP? Spamton & NEO (the NEO body was stored in the computer room closet?) Spamton & Kris Kris & Noelle The Player & Noelle The Player & their yet unseen Vessel & easily more... All seems to be a pretty apt parallel to how we can use game characters & interactions to develop ourselves - new experiences & limitations within that medium both give us new frameworks to apply to the world around us, as long as we are willing to let them influence us :)
I think if snowgrave continues the player could end up being the “final boss” with all the characters trying to remove the player’s influence. That would make spamton correct at least, having the player kill all these people so that the characters will turn against them.
I think the game tries to keep the theme that your choices don't matter as your choice to cause Kris doing genocide doesn't change the chapter's ending much but Noelle's choice to listen to your genocidal intent drastically changes the ending. Either that or it meant Kris' choices don't matter, since we control Kris so he is an extent of us.
This was really something that resonated with me because I’m someone who firmly believes that we do have the free will to make choices and that they do matter. And that it’s not so much a blessing as it is a responsibility. You said at the end that in reality we don’t actually have that many options but we kind of do. Yes there are limitations to what choices we have, like a lack of funds or knowledge or just plain physical barriers. But there’s also a lot of limitations that we feel are concrete when they’re not. Like your question about whether someone could predict our answers to a question. In this example, there’s usually something we can say which is what we want to say, or what we think the other person might expect us to say based on what they know about us or what they want, but there’s also things we could say that would be totally unlike us, or rude, or out of left field, or unrelated. And there isn’t anything other than maybe societal expectations or pride or kindness stopping us. And this kind of applies to anything. At any moment you really could just drop everything in your life and leave. There would be consequences, like you might not have money for food or anywhere to sleep or you might scare the people you know. But you could still do it. You could commit any crime and you might succeed or you might fail. Doesn’t mean you should, but the point is you absolutely could. And this goes for everyone. In fact, most of the limitations we have apart from like, gravity or biological ones, are consequences of other people’s free choices. And that’s the thing, we do have the ability to do whatever we want, but the problem is those choices have consequences that may be outside of our control. It’s not so much that this world is predetermined, it’s more that when you have more than one being that has free will and can do whatever they want, those two beings will inevitably impact each other. I would almost argue that if our existence consisted of only ourselves in a world devoid of any other living thing or object or whatever, then that world would be predetermined. It would be predetermined by us. But because we don’t live in that world, and we can only control our own actions, there is no way to predetermine anything because anyone could do anything at any moment. I tend to think that this universe we live in has no fate, no controller that decides what happens. We are an anomaly that happened to come about as a result of many many random factors that happened to come together because infinity is infinity and that means infinite possibilities. There is no greater meaning, in the grand scheme of things, my life doesn’t matter. But what makes it matter is that there are others around me that have feelings. And that I have feelings. And my choices may affect those feelings. And bad feelings feel bad. And the fact that nothing is predetermined gives me meaning. It gives me responsibility and holds me accountable for my actions, because I can’t blame them on anyone else. I can’t tell myself no matter what I do everything will be fine or everything will be bad. I have the power to influence what happens. So now when it comes to kris and how this all relates to deltarune’s universe, it’s inhabitants, and especially the relationship between kris and the player, I’m not really sure. Because yes by their nature video games are worlds were we don’t have free will, we only have predetermined choices because it’s impossible for anyone to guess every single choice any one player might make (again, a consequence of everyone having free will) But Toby fox showed us with undertale that the characters in his games do have feelings. They exist in their own way, and our actions can affect them. In undertale, our actions very much had consequences. It seemed like the whole message was that games aren’t just games, they can be as real as anything else. The idea that in deltarune our actions don’t matter seems like the exact opposite of this idea. And maybe that is what he’s trying to explore, what with deltarune being like a parallel universe of undertale where everything is similar but different. But I just don’t think that’s entirely it. This comment has been really long and meandering and I’m not sure I even really worked out what it is I’m trying to say. It feels like there’s an idea we just haven’t fully grasped yet because we don’t have enough of the pieces yet. Which is a totally obvious thing to say I know. Still the idea that we might end up having to choose between our freedom and kris’s freedom somehow, or their happiness or our happiness, sticks in my mind as is so poignant to me. Because I want kris to have their freedom but what they want could also be at odds with what I want. Or is it their happiness I care about more? If I knew they’d be happy without their freedom would I chose my own instead? From how terrifying I found the scene at the end of chapter 2, where I was unable to see if the characters I’d grown to care about were in danger and unable to do anything about it, afraid kris might do something I wouldn’t like, maybe their freedom isn’t what I want. Was the voice at the start even telling the truth? Or was it a malicious entity that doesn’t want us to have freedom. After all, the message we were told through all of undertale was kill or be killed, and then it turned out to be proven wrong. Maybe we’ll come to find out that our choices do matter after all. At this point I really don’t know what I’m trying to say, it’s late and I’m tired. But it’s bothering me that it feels like Im right at the edge of figuring it out. So I’ll just leave this here anyway.
On a more personal note (as if it wasn’t already mostly a big personal note lol) the idea of someone being able to predict my actions is kind of ridiculous to me because most of the time it seems I can’t even predict my own actions lmao. See my entire life I’ve relied on gut feelings and impulsivity to drive most of my decisions, it was just how I naturally functioned. I always had incredibly strong “gut” feelings and because they felt so real and important I always assumed they had to be true and real. But almost two years ago I got an adhd diagnosis and have slowly been realizing that a lot of those intense feelings are a symptom of the hyperactivity, overly sensitive emotions, and impulsivity that comes with adhd. People with adhd tend to have a hard time regulating their emotions because they simply feel them a lot stronger than neurological people do, it’s something we share with autistic people. And now I’m taking medication that helps a lot with regulating my emotions. And I’ve learned that I need to let some time pass before making decisions or acting on impulses because a lot of times those hyper strong feelings telling me something is true or I want something end up just being spur of the moment things that don’t apply anymore once they’ve passed. And it can be big or small, anywhere between seeing something cute in the store that I think I NEED only to walk out and immediately not even want it that much anymore, to meeting someone new and thinking I’m in love with them and have to date them immediately only to find out once the excitement of meeting someone new wears off I don’t actually have feelings for them at all. It also does feel sometimes like I’m not even in control of my own brain. Executive dysfunction can make it immensely difficult to get up and accomplish tasks that should be simple, which means whenever I randomly get hit with motivation I need to take advantage of it or else things won’t get done as quickly, and I don’t really have a way of predicting when that motivation will strike. My brain also latches on to different interests at seemingly random intervals, and while it’s latched on to something it’s like the only thing I can think about or want to do, but then it can suddenly get bored out of nowhere and then all interest I previously had fades and I can hardly get myself to care about the thing anymore, no matter how much I used to love it. So a lot of my days end up going totally different to how I planned them or expected them to play out. And even more would if I had no responsibilities I cared about and could satisfy my every whim. So I guess in the end I kind of empathize with kris and only end up loving them more and more the more we learn about them. Despite the fact that the game seems determined to show us how vastly different we are lol. But at least I get the benefit of those random things my brain does usually being pretty enjoyable to me, or at least they feel that way. It still feels like something I want in the moment even if it changes later. It seems like a lot of the choices we can make for kris are things they don’t even want in the moment. Though some of them do seem enjoyable. So who knows lol
@@Fenrick we may not have complete control over every thought that pops into our brains, but at least we have control over whether to voice them or act on them or not. Which is what really matters I think, since our thoughts have no impact on the world or people around us unless we “manifest” them, for lack of a better word. It does get a little harder stopping them from impacting ourselves but I think it helps to remember that they bear no weight unless we give them that weight. Otherwise they just fade away like they came. They don’t have to be reality Which unfortunately is the control we’ve taken away from kris. They don’t have a choice on what thoughts are acted on because we decide for them. At least for now. And that makes me sad
My theory about kris needing the soul is that he's actually dying and need's us to keep him alive and i say this because i remember a dialogue saying something about kris moving like a zombie and anotehr thing that i noticed is whenever he rips out his soul which we are in control of the dialogue from other character's refer to kris as "him" as seen by susies dialogue when we were not in control near the end of chapter 2.
I’m fairly certain that “The Player”, Kris, and “The Knight” are three separate entities inside Kris’ body. The Player and Kris reside inside the SOUL, with the Knight taking over whenever they like. After all, why would Kris have such jerky, zombie-like movements when controlling their own body?
Since the SOUL is a separate entity from Kris, I do think we're gonna end up transferring our SOUL to the vessel we created in the first chapter When we finish creating it, it says our "wonderful creation" will be *discarded* But if it was thrown away, that means it WAS created, and we can find it somewhere The only problem with this solution is that Kris would be left without a SOUL
@@Fenrick The Thrash Machine that we create in Chapter 1 gets blown up, only to be re-built and have a fairly important role in Chapter 2. I think that this is foreshadowing that a similar kind of thing will happen to the Vessel we created.
I think another take could be this: Nobody can chose who they are in this world. But the player can. Sure, the game says your choices dont matter, but they dont matter TO YOU. They still effect how the other characters perceve Kris. We know that Kris still has the power of Loading and Saving to an extent, as Kris themselves can still see the Save Points. I wonder if Kris has been through these events before, where Kris wants to change something that happens at the end of the week, but still wants some events to occur, which is why they keep opening Dark Worlds.
This doesn't have much to do with the video but I like how the battles between Undertale and Deltarune differ. What I mean by that is that in Undertale, you have a first person perspective during battles while in Deltarune, you have a third person perspective.
I like to think of us as kris's conscience, not necessesarily choosing to do anything they wouldn't do themselves. This still actually plays into determinism; you could say were also puppets in the same way that kris is because we also have conscience. Could you choose to jump off a cliff or kill your loved ones with no prior reasoning? Not really, you're conscience will always stop you, even making you repulsed by the idea. Kris is aware of us just as we can be aware of our own conscience, and is disturbed by the idea that we are above them, but acknowledges that they cant be themselves without a conscience either. They're struggling with trying to understand themselves and the nature of free will, as many kids like kris will do at their age/ However I think this is only 1 dimension to kris's soul. We can also go beyond kris's will in the snowgrave path, even deciding the actions and thoughts of characters other than kris. Our ability to influence this world grows stronger the more we reach our hand into it, just like how the characters in undertale and deltarune can gain exp by comitting murders. So its the players choice to either be a benign influence, or an extradimensional tyrant capable of destroying realities.
This is a really cool and interesting video! I love the idea that Ralsei is basically acting as a dungeon master, and the discussion of what it means to be a player character reminds me of how I decided that Gordon Freeman never shoots first when I played the Half-Life games. It's also interesting to think that Kris might want us dictating their actions as the soul, to me it adds an element of trust to the equation. Like, Kris is putting their trust in you as the player to do the right thing, albeit we don't really know what the right thing is in their eyes. Do they want some kind of snowgrave-induced transcendence regardless of the cost, or is going down that route a betrayal of the trust they put in you? Maybe they rip you out when they need to do something that they either don't trust you with or know that you aren't capable of within the confines of Deltarune's inputs. Lots of interesting stuff to think about!
Thanks, glad you liked it. I've also thought about characters like Gordon... Maybe a subject for another video someday. I really do look forward to seeing how the others might respond to the snowgrave antics too.
I never thought about this question until deltarune and it's a very terrifying concept, specially if assuming that Kris was against what WE did to Noelle on Snowgrave and even what WE made him do with Ralsei.
one of the things that i picked up from undertale is that alot of flavor text and such might actually be from a characters interpitation of the world(in undertale theres alot of ways to look at it that chara is the one giving alot the flavor text that is following you around as a spirit from entering the underground). looking at some of the check texts for some chars like berdly "He usually only gets this mad when you play games together." when you do the check for him, it is a bit off saying "when you play games together" in how its phrased so im not 100% sure how to take this epecially when considering that we the player havnt played any games with berdly. the second thing i want to specificly point out that we know what chris wants to some degree is the teas you can get, and i will be personally seeing how these teas effect party members as each chapter goes forward. but theres some asumptions we can already take note of. ralsei and noelle dont know eachother so there basicly neutral in a sense and each others tea heals them for 50 HP, by all means this is a point 0 affection towards each other and intresting to see how things are compared to the others.(noelle cant taste susie and ralseis without hacks, but noelle drinking susie tea is a 400 heal so i think theres some use for later chapters?), the ones i find intresting though is kris drinking ralsei tea is 60 so there isnt a outright distaste towards him, and kris and noelle drinking eachothers tea is 70, so its probably safe to say the way noelle considers kris is about the same lvl as kris to noelle. kris and susie drinking eachothers tea is 120 so they definintly consider them self friends
I am an oblivious idiot so you might have been trying to say this and it just flew over my head but... I always read the line "your choices dont matter" as directed towards kris. Kris's choices dont matter but you, the player's choices, do matter. Sorry if im stating the obvious.
After Chapter 2 released, I replayed Chapter 1, and the first line after the Vessel gets discarded is "No one can choose who they are in this world." The 'in this world' part makes me think that you can't make choices in Hometown, because that's the world we start in. The Dark Worlds are different worlds, though, so maybe choices matter more there. (Also, Hometown *is* a Dark World now, so that might affect things too.)
Your choices cant change the full story of ur life, but they can change anything else What you're gonna do today, who are your friends, what you like, thats up to you But going to college, nope Thats deltarune's story in a nutshell
when the 7 chapters are fully released im waiting for a route where all your choices matches with kris choices. giving you something special at the end
@@Fenrick I just noticed something that adds on to your tea theory (specifically, that Kris isn't too fond of Ralsei): When Kris drinks the Ralsei Tea, they gain 50 HP, but Susie reacts exactly the same way as she would have if she saw Kris drinking Kris Tea ("No reaction?") which only heals 10 HP, with the difference being Ralsei saying "I'm happy." This leads me to believe that Kris was SUPPOSED to be healed 10 HP by the tea, but Ralsei used a healing spell on Kris when they drank the tea to give the player the impression that Kris likes Ralsei so the player would "choose" (force) Kris to act affectionately to Ralsei to the enjoyment of Ralsei. (I understand that this is a stretch ^^")
I've thought about similar things to this before, so it's nice to see someone else describe and present these thoughts, probably better than I could too! Since you described how a character could feel when their body is taken over by the player (Good choice to use MGS2 clips, hah hah hah!), here's something else to ponder on: What about when you create a character for you to inhabit, as happens in many RPGs, including DELTARUNE itself? From a meta perspective, they spontaneously appear in a world where they previously did not exist. If they could gain a mind of their own separate from the player, would they feel like they have no effect on the world since they were only able act on our commands? "Have you ever thought about a world where everything is exactly the same... Except you don't exist?" - Goner Kid, UNDERTALE
I think on a normal playthrough the role of the player is a sort of ‘intervention’ into Kris’ downward spiraling life. He’s dealing with a broken home, badly missing his brother, and has begun opening dark world fountains around town. We help him to recover from this bad emotional state by directing him to make the friendships and connections he wouldn’t be able to make on his own.
I'm going to go against the norm so please bear with me. this argument Kris is fighting the player for control of their own body does work after the game everyone seems to forget this one thing in the beginning of the game after we wake up as Kris there's a little cage at the foot of their bed and when you examine it, it says the cage has suffered several crashes and that cage was there long before the player. because of that it makes it less about Kris vs the player but instead makes more sense if is Kris mind vs Kris emotions.
Snow grave makes me think back to the "your choices dont matter in this world" cause its not by "Your choices" being kris but instead the choices made by Noelle... Since you cant effect the world through kris but can affect it through other characters...
Our choice does matter but this is not our host. Not our vessel not our home and not our story. We are merely there to try and help so let's do our best. Our vessel is back in undertale. More or less.
I really do think deltarune wants us to think if we are a puppet or the puppeteer. Is the freedom of choise just an illusion. Example you could, just go and jump, for no reason at all. Whould that be your choise, or whould that be predetermined. Since if you jump, you are lisening to the command of fate but if you decide not to you still are doing what you are told. Its a wierd paradox that's hard to escape. Kris is no diffrent, he alredy has a predetermined path, unless kris leaves the soul behind, he can't choose he can't decide. Thats mostly i think the common referring theme of "your choises dont matter" because if you do (in example) jump or not, your choise doesn't matter because it was alredy predetermined/chosen.
I don't know if this means anything, but there are 7 chapters in deltarune's story, similar to how in undertale, 7 human souls were needed to free the monsters from the underground. Maybe there is a connection between these 2, were at the end of the seventh chapter of deltarune, kris is able to be liberated from the players control through the help of the 7 potential secret bosses throughout all of the chapters (assuming each chapter has 1 secret boss i.e spamton and jevil). The last 2 and only secret bosses so far have had themes of freedom related to their characters, as well as both bosses "becoming your strength" after you defeat by becoming items in your inventory. Also spamton talks about how kris, susie and ralsei could "break their own strings" with "a power like that" after you defeat him in the spamton neo fight. Anyways, all of the mentions of freedom and "breaking strings" makes me think that at the end of deltarune, with the help of all of the items collected from the sevret bosses, kris might finally be set free from the players control, just like how in undertale, the 7 human souls freed the monsters from the underground. Idk though, it's just my theory.
7 is also a number widely considered to have interesting properties, with biblical significance for instance. I always had a sense it wasn't chosen randomly.
10:17 this reminds me of a nightmare I had when I was little: I needed to pee but I couldn't find a freaking bathroom anywhere! it was literally IMPOSSIBLE ..... because I was in a dream Lol but for real now it's kinda similar XD
Personally, the way I see it is that since the soul is where emotion and stuff is held (according to Ralsei), Kris is not fighting the player perse, rather he's fighting the emotions building from Asriel's approaching return, which makes it harder to think or do things he once found easy or fun. Asriel's return is bittersweet, causing emotions to go haywire, which is why Kris is constantly at odds with the soul.
If only we're able to demostrate our situation to Kris as to the limitations of action we have directly. The piano gag only seemed to make Kris think we're an idiot making him look bad.
2:18 i always thought deltarune and our world are too different to interact with eachother but the connection between the soul in Kris and the "player" has the influence of a certain unknown person who is scattered throughout time
I tell you what, im sick of everyone saying "tHe PlAyEr iS tHe BaD gUy", just let me play the video game. ( especially considering ive never done snowgrave.)
i think we dont know enough yet to put together a full theory on this, the black fog from the end of chapter 2 may have something to do with it if it comes back
I always thought that it was someone telling Kris that his choices don't matter. The player occupies a character without choices and only by separating yourself from the characters that keep you in line... you can find loop holes to gain control. Kris probably hates what we do no matter what cuz none of it was his choice. It would be interesting to see the player take the most peaceful route possible only to find out that the main character isn't satisfied with the outcome and perhaps manages to do something drastic that it punishes us. Encouraging us to take a darker road less travelled. The best ending for Kris would be to let him free but we can't let him. It's a game after all.
Our choices matter at least a bit. Berdly can be killed in Snowgrave, but you can just reset, right? Wrong. If you play the game after Snowgrave and get up to the second Berdly fight, the game remembers. It states "smells like frozen chicken"...
@@Nagasakevideo False. If you use snowgrave on a maus, it’s shown to be dead. If you violently defeat Queen without interacting with berdly, his arm is paralyzed and that transfers to the real world showing that he’s dead in the real world
snowgrave wakes up Noelle to Kris not acting to Kris , even to existence of the playar by being able to tell apart our voce from Kris's . by doing snowgrave you might be crating your own reckoning once Noelle figures out that you are not doing what you are doing to get stronger , but from a perverse sense of curiosity of what if , sounds familiar ? or maybe not even that but a drive to save Kris from this malicious voice that made her hurt her friend
one thing we definitely need too keep in mind is that our actions as a player are determined as well, in a sense. We can only interact with the game as the developers allow us to. Plus I reject in part the assumption that the mere act of playing is harmful, time wouldn't progress without us, the characters only exist when we're playing, would the alternative really be better?
So there are 2 secret boses so far that have themes of freedom(what Kris does not have)and that met a strange man(probally Gaster) and went insane.Both spamton and Jevik draw pararels to Kris (spamton does more but whatevs) So what if Gaster gave Kris His soul or our soul i guess.
What are our own choices but a chain of chemical reactions produced by a slab of salt, fat, and meat inside our skull? All choices are predetermined (well, unless true randomness exists in the universe or something supernatural can bend the rules of cause and effect but the former isn’t particularly more interesting and the latter just begs more questions)
Nice video! Very organized, well-constructed arguments, and potent questions! Minor question: what is the music you used during the introduction? I liked it but didn't recognize it as from Deltarune.
I love how Berdley-go-nuts can turn his head backwards. You know, because bird. 0:04 I identify more with Alphys and Nerdley. >///w///< 0:45 / 6:31 One of the reasons why people play D&D in the first place. 3:09 Oh, come on, Suzers! Even if you're into rides, you've gotta at least appreciate the fact that..."the fair is a veritable smorgasbord - orgasbord - orgasbord...." 3:36 Susie and Spamton both dig the macro motif. Imagine if Undertale's version of Alphys, after crossing over into this dimension thanks to Gaster (allegedly) - which would be in keeping with her Walter Bishop vibe, I might add (in which case, Gaster would be William Bell) - built a VR simulator that allowed Lightners and Darkners to co-op in VR games built from their thoughts and feelings! Susie and Spamton would both take part in a VR version of 'Rampage' fer sure! 7:36 Is Kris left-handed? Not enough left-handed characters in video games! In Undertale, Sans and Asgore are both left-handed. 8:15 Gotta wonder what the significance is of all the Masonic/Kabbalic symbolism in the Toby-go-nuts mythos. Pewdiepie referred to Undertale as "an Illuminati game," but the Illuminati's goals are mostly political, not mystical. It's true that they recruit through the Freemasons, who borrow a lot of their iconography from Kabbala, but the Illuminati regard the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry to be a waste of time. Also, Toby is from Boston which has been a Masonic stronghold since before the American Revolution. Note: The twin staircases have different meanings depending on context, but it's a recurring motif in Freemasonry and Kabbala, along with pillar and archway motifs, three dots arranged in a triangle, and various configurations of circles and traingles. Freemasonry has the twin pillars known as Boaz ("boh'OZ") and Jachin ("ya'KHEEN"). Kabbala has the three pillars which represent mercy, mildness, and severity (which symbolically correspond with True Pacifist, Neutral, and Genocide). Notice the recurring "three pillar" motifs at the beginning of Undertale, both in the opening cutscene and in various rooms in the Ruins. Also, the Delta Rune symbol's upper portion is a winged sun which is a recurring symbol on ancient architecture throughout the Near East and Middle East, particularly Egypt. Scholars corroborate that it likely represents the worship of royalty as divinity. Contrast that with Asgore's assertion that he "never wanted power." Also, I don't think the goat folk represent Baphomet. Asgore especially has more in common with Cernunnos of Celtic mythology. Conflating Cernunnos with Baphomet could be construed as some form of cultural expropriation. And we know Toby-go-nuts wouldn't do that. 10:54 Existential dread. 11:44 Snowgrave is Chaotic Evil. Possibly Neutral Evil since the willingness to manipulate others into being your "puppets" is a Lawful Evil tendency (since you're playing the role of a tyrant taking free will away from others), but doing so for the sake of causing mayhem for your own amusement is Chaotic Evil. 12:00 Chaos = freedom = left-hand path. Or we could use Promethean imagery to describe the same concept. 12:07 Does that mean Ralsei is an Agent Smith type of figure? Or maybe more like The Architect or The Analyst, representing order, predictability, and the proverbial "blue pill." But we see him take on "red pill" individualist traits thanks to Susie's influence. 12:15 The movie 'Free Guy' flips that paradigm upside-down. In a world where Chaotic Evil is the status quo, Lawful Good becomes a form of rebellion. 15:41 Why does he shoot right-handed if he has a dead right eye? That lack of attention to detail has always irked me. And just because I'm left-eye dominant. Another example would be the Die Hard games. Bruce Willis is left-handed, therefore John McClane is left-handed. The only Die Hard game that gets this right is Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza. 16:35 "Years into someone's life" unless their past is just fake memories like in the original Total Recall. 18:44 Spamton NEO would have woken up from the Matrix.
In my view, many things in Deltarune serve to show our presence as Kris, is not being the character, but controlling the character, especially compared to Undertale. These things are small details that aren't even hidden, they're just not that flashy.
I think the saying of "Your choices don't matter" was talking to Kris and not the player. When we go through the character creation in the first chapter, we're making Kris and not the player, we're just following through the character creation process that all the other NPCs go through. However, there's another character creation process in the second chapter where we can enter the name of the player, that name likely being the name of the soul which has the power to determine its own actions.
If the only way to truly free Kris is this games version of genoside route then I'm not even playing. But... What I think is more likely is that the freedom requires the secret bosses and the dark crystals they drop.
i personally think that Kris is actually really nice and, even though YOU are torturing them, and Kris just wants you out of their life, they still put you back to make you feel better.
Игры
![Why Does Everybody Love Spamton? - [Deltarune Theory/Thoughts]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/a7ClVsw-iGM/mqdefault.jpg)
There was a lot that got cut out of the video since I felt like I was repeating myself towards the end. Here's one of the more interesting bits I thought still might be worth sharing:
Here’s a little thought experiment of my own. Imagine that you’re actually in a video game world. Doesn’t matter which, but for sake of illustration, let’s say, the world of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Not to say you’re in simply in the land of Cyrodil, but that you are in the video game with all the limitations that entails. You would very quickly feel trapped. You couldn’t confide in your virtual friends, because you can only choose a few stock dialogue options, not that it matters, since you already know that that your NPC friends would not be able to answer those kinds of questions even if you were able to express yourself. There is no way out and the world is static, barring any story events that cause world state changes.
Well, plot twist. What I just described was a dream I had a year ago. I vividly remember going into an Inn, trying to talk to the friendly NPC owner about my problem, and only being able to say “rumors.” I’m not trying to make this channel my dream journal, but that dream certainly gave me something to think about, and it’s pretty relevant since it probably explains what’s going on in my subconscious that makes me such a sucker for the kind of thing that Toby Fox is doing. That dream actually made me feel this profound sense of existential dread, like I was just oppressed by the very nature of reality. And then I woke up and remembered that depending on how you look at things, that might actually be the case. That line of thinking probably ties into why I love it when games explore this concept. I sympathize with the plight of Spamton, since I apparently got to experience the same circumstances.
That's alot of text
@@Inf3rnoDrag0n That's why I decided not to include it :p
@@Fenrick Sounds like an interesting dream (apart from the existential dread it caused). While being in an actual game world may be fun depending on which game it's from, I know what you mean about the issues with being literally in a world with the limitations of the game it's in. Do you think it would be worse to be in a game where the plot ultimately has an end point where nothing changes once it's reached or to be in a more open-ended one like World of Warcraft or FF14 where new things would happen every so often before eventually ceasing to change once game updates stop happening?
Very interesting dream! Thank you very much for sharing it! It reminds me a lot of "Doki Doki Literature Club", the despair that takes Monika when she realizes that her world is just a dating sim, and how she tries obsessively to reach out to the player, because the player is the only "real" thing with which she can interact from her position.
@@tempestfennac9687 I did give that a little thought. I guess at the end of the day the biggest difference is that it has to end eventually.
Also the line of thinking arguably falls apart if you look at a sandbox game that doesn't even have an "end state..." but I guess that can be considered a separate genre.
"your choices don't matter" was always directed at Kris, not at the player. "No one can choose who they are in this world" THAT was directed at the player.
Then why does the text say " YOUR name is Kris"?
@@pablopereyra7126 well i mean if you can't choose who you are then you're kris but you didnt want to be kris because you wanted to be who you made but also who tf is that guy that discarded our vessel
That was directed at the player by the one who discarded your vessel, the one who made your vessel says its up to you to change the world.
@@pablopereyra7126 Because a Kris is a twisted knife which has a spirit of its own. The dagger is possessing him.
@@mimszanadunstedt441 this is a joke.. right..?
*RIGHT..?!?*
Spamton doesn’t actually die. If you fill your inventory up it’s revealed that the items Spamton drops as are actually him, just like Jevil. Kris is probably more upset about Spamton’s implications and circumstance.
I think he dies in the genocide/snowgrave route though
@@radicool8328 No yeah, definitely. No way he survived that.
Maybe death is too strong a word, but he did lose his agency at least. We've already seen one instance of a character reacting to Jevil as an item so maybe we'll hear something else from him in the future.
@@radicool8328 yeah, snowgrave instantly kills anything it touches, proved by using it on a maus. however, the attack might have been ice shock, either way, he's frozen to death.
@@Fenrick Snowgrave is Fatal, its very explicit
I feel like it's incredibly difficult to try to analyze Deltarune right now, as we're still only in the first act. There's at least 7 chapters, and with a typical 3-act structure, that would mean we've probably only *just* hit the rising action, or are just about to.
Well, I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I just see it as living in the moment since it's probably gonna be some time before we see the next chapters
@@Fenrick it certainly is fun to speculate, but it feels like building Ikea furniture with half the parts missing and no instructions, right now. Still fun to do with a lot to learn, but ultimately your either left with a jumbled mess or half a table that just will not stay upright.
Too bad the next batch of parts won't be for another couple years.
@@aerynboyer I honestly wouldn’t care if any of these theories are wrong or half-true, they are so interesting and it keeps my hype for chapter 3 alive while also leaving a lot more thoughts out there in the open for you to decide.
In first and second act you want to say, right?
@@MsSlagar I think they meant act as in the classic 3 act structure that is popular when describing movies. There are certain story beats that signal the transition from one point in the plot to another point in the plot.
The arrangement between Kris and the Soul is very interesting. I agree it's mutually beneficial, in that it's our power that can cleanse fountains and we're probably the reason the story kicks off the way it does, and Kris is our way of interacting with the world. BUT I would also argue it's mutually non-beneficial. Kris is obviously distraught by the idea that a puppet cannot live without its puppeteer, and I still think they have some disdain for us. But on our side, we were brought into this world with a promise of a vessel that we could freely control. We're not part of this arrangement of our own free will and if we'd had an actual empty slate, we wouldn't had to trample all over Kris' choices. It's also why I don't think the game could ever imply we're a bad person for controlling Kris - it's not the kind of story that Toby Fox would tell ("You interact with my content and that makes you a bad person" is not a good moral of the story) and we cannot know what Kris' true feelings are about our dialogue options until they happen. We're clumsy and ignorant, and not unlike an elephant in a room full of expensive pottery, bound to accidentally break a vase here and there.
Now, on the subject of, "Your choices don't matter." Toby Fox has said that Deltarune only has one ending and I'm inclined to believe him - after all, this fits perfectly within the theme of determinism in the game. Snowgrave is, indeed, the player rebelling against the idea that there is only one set path. It's different than Undertale Genocide in that it requires you to go so off-instinct that you're essentially trying to break out of the confines of the code, rather than Genocide which seemed to respond naturally to your choices. However, if DR only has one ending, then our choices not mattering will still hold true in the end.
I like to see the concept of Choice in Deltarune as the player and Kris tugging on either side of a rope with equal strength. As long as the player does not let go - continue playing the game and controlling Kris - even if Kris slashes tires, and creates fountains, we'll take our control back and their choices cannot matter. And as long as Kris does not let go - tearing out the soul and going off on their own for a limited time - we also cannot enforce our will on the world in the exact way we want to.
Some9one is REALLY blind and did not check the steam page, where it says "...only one ending?" Not just one ending,
@@MsSlagar If you are being needlessly sarcastic to me, you might want to check the Deltarune website. Under the FAQ section, it says, "Q: How many endings are there? A: One."
@@MsSlagar make research before saying shit.
@@aeverelle6144 and then go check the steam page of the game.
@@MsSlagar Eh, I don't think the question mark is enough to make me think that there will definitely be multiple endings. We'll see in a couple years, I suppose. As a sidenote, it'll be good to keep in mind that aaaallll the different ending monologues for the Undertale Neutral routes count as 'one ending'.
My theory is that the soul is in fact Kris's soul, but some innate property of human souls allows us to control them. They can remove the soul, but being without a soul is probably hell and so they have to come back to it eventually.
I doubt this. The player character in deltarune is very obviously disconnected from the actual world of deltarune and there are quite a few hints of this. When chapter 1 was first released the undertale twitter started saying a bunch of strange things, i wont go into it but the basic gist is that the person talking is most likely gaster and he's inviting you to be a part of a sort of experiment aka deltarune. Then there's also sans dialogue out right saying that we are the same player who played deltarune.
@@flamo2666 Well it would make sense for Kris to be somewhat of an outcast because they’re the only human in their whole town. I’m not sure how the rest of what you said contradicts my theory though.
It’s 69 now don’t like
@@SoshJam isn't what you're saying is that we are kris' soul? im saying we aren't kris' soul and only started controlling him as of recently.
@@flamo2666 that is literally the exact thing i am saying. kris _already_ had a soul, their own soul, and now we're just controlling it. the video said that kris probably didn't have a soul of their own and the one in game was from the player, and I'm disagreeing with that.
Towards the end you asked if Kris is actually friends with anyone throughout the game, or if it's just the Soul doing all this, but there are some moments showing that Kris does think of Susie, at least, as a friend. It mostly bleeds through like their other characteristics, in like cutscenes or how other characters react to how they say something, but either way, those are things we can't control.
One really good example of this was the fight with King Spade in ch1, when Spade attacked Susie and knocked her down, and just when he was about to knock her out, Kris sprung into action, moving in front of her, despite Spade sending similar attacks to both Kris and Ralsei. (Basically, despite being weakened, Kris still went to protect Susie on their own, out of our control)
Another instance is when Kris calls Toriel in ch2 (and maybe ch1, like after they've left the Dark World), that they tell her they've made a new friend, which is Susie. We have no control over how they word things, so I think that when they say that Susie is a new friend, for example, they are being genuine.
Then there's stuff like what happened after the Pacifist Spamton NEO fight, where only Susie was able to make Kris smile, and despite Ralsei offering his scarf to Kris, from what Susie says, it seems that Kris asked to wear Susie's jacket.
All of this still makes me wonder how Susie will react upon finding out about this whole Soul situation, but I feel like as Kris spends more time with Susie, they kinda are separating themselves from us, the player (I have absolutely no evidence for that it's just a vibe I get idk), so maybe Susie will be able to tell that it is *Kris* that is friends with Susie, that they are choosing to spend time with her and stuff, not just the player's control over them. At least, I hope so. (I just really love their friendship so much I hope that nothing too bad happens to them please Toby don't make Susie hate Kris I beg ;-; )
I also definitely agree with one of your last points, that it doesn't seem like this Soul situation is new to Kris, at least, that ch1 isn't the first time they've had to deal with it. I've kinda had the feeling for a while, especially after playing through it myself, that there doesn't seem to be any hesitation on Kris's part about like, removing the Soul (also the way they look to the screen, grin creepily, and brandish a knife, they know what they're doing, and know who is doing this to them, at least, they know the most immediate thing that is doing this to them). I don't think it's theirs, and I have no estimation of how long this has been going on, but I don't think this is particularly new to them. I also don't think they can really,,, live? without the Soul, they need a Soul to live and function normally (given how they stumble when the Soul is removed, I think they could theoretically live and go about their life, but others would 100% notice, and I doubt they'd be able to live long without serious side effects), which honestly is really terrible for them. The idea that they've had to deal with basically being a Sim to whoever/whatever is controlling them, even before we pick up the game.
Overall, I personally am suuuuper curious about who Kris is as a person, and am completely fine with the idea that Kris is not like me, because they're not supposed to be, they are their own person, and I made the choice of playing the game (which I may or may not feel a noticeable amount of guilt over, despite enjoying the game a lot 😬😅). And despite what you said in the video, about a potential "best" ending being one where we choose the things that Kris seems to prefer still not being a great thing because they're still not actually the one making those decisions on their own, I still kinda hope that by the end of the game, some kind of middle ground can be found between Kris and the Soul (after all, we the players didn't choose to inhabit some random teenager, we came into the game with the idea that we were creating our own person, and then this happened, but I doubt Kris would care much about that).
I think that there's no question that Kris feels strongly towards Susie, but the question is more about whether the Kris that Susie likes is the "real" Kris. I have a feeling Susie would be the kind of person to say "I don't understand any of this SOUL stuff, but I know we are bros." And I do like the idea that Kris might be able to learn from what the player does.
@@Fenrick I think Susie does like the real Kris. There are a LOT of implied lines from Kris that we simply don't hear, Kris always seems to say things they way they want to, and she even seems to enjoy chillin' out with them by the lake which might technically be initiated by the player but the actual act of sitting down is not something I told them to do. I was surprised when it happened even and said "awww, they're hangin' out!"
With the exception of snowgrave and despite all the dialogue options and forcing them to go talk to people so much their social anxiety starts to make them sick(Kris I'm so sorry I know how you feel but I gotta read this dialogue), it's incredibly difficult to actually make them act out of character. It feels as if Kris is maybe defiant in this, perhaps even unknowingly. Noelle only notices something's off in a couple instances, and when we do the bad things.
Even the moss she isn't questioning that Kris WOULD do it, just that they ARE.
@@ElectricBarrier Susie can at least respond to Kris's nonverbal cues, which overwhelmingly seem positive towards her. There's an image floating around with like 20 different reactions Kris has that show a positive attitude towards Susie.
@@Fenrick Yeah Kris at least 100% likes Susie and wants to be her friends. One of the posts on Determinators, the blog responsible for the fantastic CHARActer Analysis, shows a lot of evidence for that. Some even suggesting Kris may have wanted to be friends before the events of the game! Kris "looks shocked" for some reason at the idea they'd wanna get Susie expelled, and a good reason for that might be that... well they liked her to begin with and wouldn't.
And then, I think that there's definitely enough of Kris still there that Susie's end of the friendship isn't based on falsehood.
Building upon that, and this is soemthing I firmly believe;
Yeah Kris is obviously better friends with Susie than Ralsei and I think that's because Kris knows something we can only theorize about.
Kris knows Ralsei is Asriel.
When Ralsei tells "Kris"(but he's really taking to YOU) TWICE to immagine what Susie was doing, we explicitly see the heart (us) with her. I believe during these scenes Ralsei and Kris, the real Kris, talk, and that they're planning soemthing sketchy. But mostly I think that Ralsei is Asriel, who lied about going to college and spent all his time in the dark world avoiding his real problems. And while Kris doesn't outright hate Asriel, there's more if a realistic somber jealousy of an under-achieving adopted child vs their popular well loved brother who gets all the trophies.
While it's clear Kris dislikes being controlled by the player, they enjoy the adventures. It's possible Kris opened that dark fountain at the end of chapter 2 so they could have another dark world adventure with Susie.
During Snowgrave, Spamton says "DON'T BLAME ME WHEN YOU'RE [Crying] IN A [Broken Home]" so what if being free from the player (assuming it wouldn't kill Kris) would mean no more adventures? Back to being a lonely kid on their broken home.
I've seen somewhere someone pointing out that kris might do what they did in the end of chapter 2 to make undyne believe them about the dark fountain since they tried to tell her about it in chapter 1 but she didn't take it seriously
Something that struck me about the end of Chapter 2. We don't know if Kris managed to return the Soul to their body after opening the fountain. Chapter 3 might see Susie stuck with a soulless Kris and she won't know what is wrong with them at first. She might find out about the Soul that way by tracking it down independently of Kris. Even if she only sees them put it back inside, it will still raise red flags for her if they immediately return to 'normal' afterwards.
I agree that that'd be interesting, but from the slight movements of Kris holding the soul as the screen fills up, it looks like he's raising it up, almost giving it a better look at the dark world like "haha, look at this, this was alllll me, loser." before moving his arm to the left, assumedly to put it back in. Still, the idea of a soulless Kris (maybe we finally get to possess that Vessel from the start of the game at some point?), nonetheless a Kris who could actually talk to us, and the other characters, by using a proper dialogue box would be awesome to see, and is also something I think might happen as well.
Whenever Ralsei tells Kris(and us) to imagine what Susie is doing(when she is away from us) we can give commands to her, she kinda hears Kris' voice but can’t understand what is said and assumes she’s just hearing things, so she ignores our commands, but in fights we can still control if she doges attacks or not, so we still have some influence over her, what if a soulless Kris' opens the game for the possibility of us controlling other characters like Susie?
i always interpreted the ending as like, them holding up the soul so it would be consumed by the darkness
Theory: If Kris is scared of a outcome because they may become a NPC or die, then it could explain why Kris may or may not be the knight, to create dark fountains to continue the players game, so they don't lose control.
If you like the theory, go all out in the reply section, I just thought up of this one and felt like I should share it.
I like to think that the knight is a separate entity and that Kris got the idea of making a new fountain after Queen coming up with the idea and how Susie, Berdley and Noelle were all laughing and having fun at the end. Susie even repeatedly tells Kris that she wants to go more adventures together which definitely had to influence Kris's view on the situation.
Also, maybe Kris wanted to show the police the dark world. There are dialogue options, but what if they're ALL what Kris wants to say? Slashing the tires and having Toriel dial emergency could definitely kill two birds with one stone. Make it harder to get to school, extending Susie's stay a little and also the point I mentioned earlier.
@@mrsuperheatran2794 yeah, if you learned how to create a fantasy world, where you could have a small adventure with your friends, make new ones and in the end by just closing the fountain that created it, there would be repercussions, wouldn’t you do it?
At that point it would be like any other bonding activity.
@@mrsuperheatran2794 But that would bring into question why Kris would still do that on the Snowgrave Route after how it affected Noelle and (presumably) got Berdly killed.
@@johnathonturner2279 isn’t the snow grave route actually named weird route, so if we do the weird route things get weird and they don’t make sense anymore, because the story is there but we are fighting it so our actions can actually matter, but Toby said the game will have only one ending, but if the journey is going to make sense or if it is going to be weird is our choice.
I couldnt hear anything you said in this video because i was eating soup very loudly. 10/10 i loved it
That's why it's important to know what foods are quiet.
you talking about 'your choices don't matter' makes me wonder if the game is not telling us that, but instead telling kris that, that they're choices don't matter, only ours do. just somthin to think about it.
@@Dollibet Would that mean it's Kris choosing a vessel and being talked to by Gaster in the beginning?
@@TheCorty i missed this reply i'm sorry 😫 i didn't even think of that, but you might be right. who gaster is speaking to isn't exactly clear and the purpose of the vessel is unclear too. it doesn't have an in-game purpose but it may serve a narrative purpose, and that might have something to do with gaster and kris's arrangement, if they have one
Early on when the Queen asks for your opinion on death or being subjugated (or smth along those lines), if you pick "death" Kris shouts it ao happily and loudly that Susie remarks, "why did you say it so happily?!" I think that was supposed to be another hunt to the player
Meat is back on the menu boys
could be a bit of kris' jokester personality shining through, or because they recognise that death has no consequence
In Undertale, you kill nearly every single monster and you don’t look back.
In Deltarune, your choices carry no meaning, but her choices do. You kill nearly every Darkner you come across, and you still don’t look back.
But she does.
She? You mean Noelle? If Noelle is being influenced by the Player and has so much trouble saying no to it, I start to think the psychological idea of a choice may be on a scale or spectrum rather than a white or black "yes or no" kind of thing
Hi Deltarune, I'm dad
@@Erolsaurus Thanks. Grammatical error has been corrected.
Most poignant perspective I've heard on deltarune. So few games discuss the unique relationship between player and character in a video game. Toby Fox is a fucking genius. Thanks for the video!
Glad you liked, thanks.
OFF
like spamton says to kris there just like him a puppet with a puppeteer
I had a longer comment planned but I'd actually like to say 3, much shorter things. Maybe it's more interesting that way~
1. Kris had a save file. We overwrite it, after hearing a monologue about how "you"(Kris) sometimes see this strange, shining light. If playing on a fresh file, you can see "Kris" LV 1, with a time of exactly 0 seconds or minutes. As if they saved, just once, when they awoke to this power. BEFORE we entered into the picture.
2. Kris always wanted to learn magic, will click unconsciously on demon summoning ads, and studied the occult with Catti.
3. Toby has said he hopes we can become friends with everyone.
Regarding #2 I noticed that as well. The game seems to tease Kris for the inability to use magic an awful lot, which is why Ralsei didn't want himself or Susie to "ACT" independently of Kris's turns. I never considered that it might be of significance though.
@@Fenrick The desire to use magic itself is probably just Kris wanting to fit in with monsters more. Judging by the fact Kris asked when their horns would grow in and wore the fake horns for a time, we can assume that despite no one ever seeming to care that he's a human, he still has hangups about not being so physically different.
Though that particular sentence was actually hinting at... something else. What do you typically call it when some strange entity controlling someone's body?
Might sound silly, but...
4:43 new category ´´true kris run``
the scariest part of the whole thing is how berdly's head was turned around while his body was facing the other way in the library.
Well, he's a bird!
Another interesting point about Snowgrave; Neither you nor Kris are affecting the world, Noelle is. You just give her a little push. Now, looking at Kris, you can definitely see that he's more resistant to your actions, causing you both to effectively lose options, rather than gain them. I feel that, as the game goes on through the "Weird Route", we may slowly move from possessing Kris, to forcing others to do our bidding, nearly ignoring Kris entirely. Just a neat little thought that ties into my own theory of the Vessel returning, and us swapping to that to either help or hinder Kris and the gang, depending on our choices (ultimately leading to our choices "not mattering" when the Vessel ends up getting destroyed or removed in some way, and us having to go back to Kris to keep them alive, or give them their soul back, assuming the Determination soul isn't entirely ours.)
Kris goes exclusively by they/them pronouns, that's indisputable fact. All the characters use they/them for Kris, and Toby quietly corrected one of the dads on the anniversary stream, who were using he/him when talking about Kris. It flew over my head until this chapter too; I'd wrongly assumed Kris was male, just to be more easily distinguished from Frisk.
I'm convinced the Determination soul is entirely ours, and that it carries over from Undertale... we control it entirely. Determination and a strong will are inseparable, yet I don't think we've seen the Determination soul act contradictory to the Player's will. If the Determination soul is so determined and isn't entirely ours... then why does it only do what we tell it to? Even when it floats towards another character when Ralsei suggests it, it's the Player that agrees to this through the dialogue options.
I don't think the Player's "Proceed" in Snowgrave is a *little* push. Noelle's said a few times she's afraid of/has trouble saying no, even in Normal route... but there's evidence that suggests she isn't being persuaded gently. From what I've read (very slowly looking up stuff abt Snowgrave instead of playing it bc it upsets me) she is intimidated by the creepy and unfamiliar voice. A voice strong enough to control Kris in some ways they're highly resistant to, like throwing away the ball of junk in their pocket in chapter 1.
I agree Kris is more strong-willed than Noelle tho, and it's Noelle reflecting the Player's choices instead of Kris that's more effective to derailing the default plot. This snowballing from Weird Route into later chapters sounds likely too. Idk how Kris feels about it... but for the first time, Snowgrave starts using the Player's own voice to direct another character even while Kris is on screen.
I hope none of this comes across as hostile. Some people tell me I talk too aggressively, others say I'm not assertive enough. Trying to find a decent middle ground has been mostly trial-and-error, despite actively researching communication techniques and stuff surrounding that. I'm not used to discussing game theories with strangers, so I'm extra unsure here. Feel free to give or not give feedback
My theory is that Kris will have to fight the player at some point, perhaps in an actual battle, and the player will take the form of the Vessel.
@@Lokear That is interesting tho. form of the Vessel.
@@Lokear I've heard it theorized that the Vessel is actually the Knight, which could be interesting.
Maybe the "genocide route" involves you continuously brainwashing others to do your dirty work, which enrages Kris more and more and also loosens our hold on them, while alerting others to our presence. This results in Kris breaking out and fighting you, becoming the sans of this story. In the end the soul will be removed, but while in the normal route you may get a chance to say a nice goodbye to everyone and make amends with Kris, this timeline they will straight-up murder you, maybe even sacrifices themselves to do it.
I thought this over for so long now, and I can wrap my ideas up in a single sentence.
Your choices don't matter, but your actions do.
I mean imagine some invisible force suddenly possess your body, running around inside you. Befriending people that annoy you by using your voice. That would piss me off.
this soul is pissing me off
i'm the original kris
@@danielle5160 --Starwalker--
I don't think the moral of the story is "You are a bad person for playing this videogame", because that isn't like Toby. He LOVES his community, why would he tell them all that it's wrong to experience the story?
@@pablopereyra7126 I don't think that will be the real moral of the game but Toby did subvert the RPG genre before. I don't put past him to make our playable character be against the player itself
@@pedrocamara885 I believe so too, but I hope there is a reconciliation afterwards where we can explain ourselves and possibly free Kris.
5:16 From previous lore, upstairs book and Kris' movement we can deduce that Kris needs the SOUL for the Determination any lifeform needs to think and live. While they have residual amounts without it, they wouldn't be able to last. Flowey needed an industrial amount of it injected to live, and truechara needed to stick to mainchara to stay around. Just saying
6:04 Figures. I wasted all that time.
7:32 Yeah, this is the weak point for a lot of theories on the matter. Wait and see...
11:23 Kris repeatedly resists you in the Weird route. Best two examples is how they look troubled after Berdly dies and how you make them shamble at the hospital instead of moving them like normal.
I’m loving these vids man KEEP EM COMING!
Unknown: Your just a meaningless character in a video game.
Sans: If I do not exist, then why even bother?
Jevil: If I dont exist, then I can do anything!
Spamton: If I dont exist, then I can be a [BIG SHOT]!
Kris: If I dont exist, then I'll write my own ending!
spamton is more "If i don't exist, i'll find the way to do so"
W.D Gaster: frequent twitter user, likes causing psychological nihilism to those below his spectrum
@@rockhistoria2537 sounds about right.
The birdcage seems like it should be a huge deal for speculation yet it seems to almost never get brought up. It's not just a coincident that its there and the implications are huge.
Great video! This game will be so thematically rich by the time it's complete...
i've been constantly trying to piece things together in my head, but it's never actually made sense until i watched this. great video,, i'll be here for the next :)
Thanks for bringing up the choice selection. I wanna know if the options you get to choose are given to you by someone else
There's one thing that so few people take into account.
The phrase of "Your choices don't matter." isn't directed at us, the player. It's directed at Kris, the puppet.
You are probably right, since it does say "your name is Kris." It's strange though, and there's a lot we don't know about the voice from the beginning. If it really is directed at Kris, it means that Kris was the one who chose the vessel as well.
Honestly, the whole arrangement between the player and Kris is a big reason why I do think Kris is the Knight; as that’s one of the few possibilities for who the Knight is that really add to any of the game’s themes.
This idea that, at least initially and as far as both parties know, the player and player character are not only separate agents but adversarial agents, is a fascinating idea to explore.
16:38 "Years into somebody's life, they become the agent of some UNSEEN INFLUENCE."
Yeah. I agree. It's a fantastic concept isn't it?
Very good video. Kinda unrelated but have you played any nier games? They give you a lot to think about, like deltarune, but more philosophical than symbolical (idk if thats the right word to use its 3am)
I've heard a lot about them but never tried them out. Should probably be on my list
@@Fenrick Oh mannnnnn, if you haven't you really should. There's a reason Yoko Taro had a quote in the undertale console port trailers, Nier seems like it was an influence on it.
God I can't even really say why! Both the original and Automata are very, very good. Automata is a bit less relevant, but you should absolutely play it second. And if you like it, look into the Drakgengard games as well. They're tied to Nier in a very interesting and convoluted way, and the lore the games share runs DEEP.
@@starless267 Lol really? Great minds think alike, I guess. Well hopefully he's put aside the time to by now, I'm sure he'd get a lot out of it.
EDIT: Oh he's played Automata at least. Replicant is really more relevant since they were both coming from a similar mindset I think.
@@starless267 No? I looked up the interview after I read your comment and he said that he put 22 hours into it and saw all the main endings. He joked about how he didn't do all the other joke endings because they might take a while, and Taro-san said he didn't need to.
@@ElectricBarrier honestly id play automata first, i dont wanna spoil anything obviously but theres a big plot thing that i feel is more impactful this way. Of course theres other things that would be better if replicant was played first too but still. Maybe its just because i played automata first that i think that but whatever
Excellent analyses of Kris, the player relationship, and the story as a whole. Also bless you for the Pathologic comparisons, I want to kiss you on the cheek
Whoa you’re so underrated!!! This was a really good video!
Thank ya
Love when videos just get right into it no intro
I see it as like this:
Undertale is mercy vs murder
Deltarune is order vs chaos
There definitely seems to be a pattern around the use of peons or proxies to achieve greater things (perhaps on a higher plane)...
The Player & Kris
Kris & The Player
The Dark Worlds themselves
Recruiting for Ralsei
Following the Prophecy
Ralsei vs The Player & Kris
Manipulating battle w/ Suzie
King's rule & his Pacifist defeat
Lancer's MO
Queen's MO & relationship with Noelle
"Get the banana, Kris" (accepting might allow Queen to take control of Kris from the player in a later chapter?)
Jevil's new revolving world / lives exchanged for EXP?
Spamton & NEO (the NEO body was stored in the computer room closet?)
Spamton & Kris
Kris & Noelle
The Player & Noelle
The Player & their yet unseen Vessel
& easily more...
All seems to be a pretty apt parallel to how we can use game characters & interactions to develop ourselves - new experiences & limitations within that medium both give us new frameworks to apply to the world around us, as long as we are willing to let them influence us :)
I think if snowgrave continues the player could end up being the “final boss” with all the characters trying to remove the player’s influence. That would make spamton correct at least, having the player kill all these people so that the characters will turn against them.
I think the game tries to keep the theme that your choices don't matter as your choice to cause Kris doing genocide doesn't change the chapter's ending much but Noelle's choice to listen to your genocidal intent drastically changes the ending. Either that or it meant Kris' choices don't matter, since we control Kris so he is an extent of us.
This was really something that resonated with me because I’m someone who firmly believes that we do have the free will to make choices and that they do matter. And that it’s not so much a blessing as it is a responsibility.
You said at the end that in reality we don’t actually have that many options but we kind of do. Yes there are limitations to what choices we have, like a lack of funds or knowledge or just plain physical barriers. But there’s also a lot of limitations that we feel are concrete when they’re not. Like your question about whether someone could predict our answers to a question. In this example, there’s usually something we can say which is what we want to say, or what we think the other person might expect us to say based on what they know about us or what they want, but there’s also things we could say that would be totally unlike us, or rude, or out of left field, or unrelated. And there isn’t anything other than maybe societal expectations or pride or kindness stopping us. And this kind of applies to anything. At any moment you really could just drop everything in your life and leave. There would be consequences, like you might not have money for food or anywhere to sleep or you might scare the people you know. But you could still do it. You could commit any crime and you might succeed or you might fail. Doesn’t mean you should, but the point is you absolutely could.
And this goes for everyone. In fact, most of the limitations we have apart from like, gravity or biological ones, are consequences of other people’s free choices. And that’s the thing, we do have the ability to do whatever we want, but the problem is those choices have consequences that may be outside of our control. It’s not so much that this world is predetermined, it’s more that when you have more than one being that has free will and can do whatever they want, those two beings will inevitably impact each other.
I would almost argue that if our existence consisted of only ourselves in a world devoid of any other living thing or object or whatever, then that world would be predetermined. It would be predetermined by us. But because we don’t live in that world, and we can only control our own actions, there is no way to predetermine anything because anyone could do anything at any moment.
I tend to think that this universe we live in has no fate, no controller that decides what happens. We are an anomaly that happened to come about as a result of many many random factors that happened to come together because infinity is infinity and that means infinite possibilities. There is no greater meaning, in the grand scheme of things, my life doesn’t matter.
But what makes it matter is that there are others around me that have feelings. And that I have feelings. And my choices may affect those feelings. And bad feelings feel bad.
And the fact that nothing is predetermined gives me meaning. It gives me responsibility and holds me accountable for my actions, because I can’t blame them on anyone else. I can’t tell myself no matter what I do everything will be fine or everything will be bad. I have the power to influence what happens.
So now when it comes to kris and how this all relates to deltarune’s universe, it’s inhabitants, and especially the relationship between kris and the player, I’m not really sure. Because yes by their nature video games are worlds were we don’t have free will, we only have predetermined choices because it’s impossible for anyone to guess every single choice any one player might make (again, a consequence of everyone having free will)
But Toby fox showed us with undertale that the characters in his games do have feelings. They exist in their own way, and our actions can affect them. In undertale, our actions very much had consequences. It seemed like the whole message was that games aren’t just games, they can be as real as anything else. The idea that in deltarune our actions don’t matter seems like the exact opposite of this idea. And maybe that is what he’s trying to explore, what with deltarune being like a parallel universe of undertale where everything is similar but different.
But I just don’t think that’s entirely it.
This comment has been really long and meandering and I’m not sure I even really worked out what it is I’m trying to say. It feels like there’s an idea we just haven’t fully grasped yet because we don’t have enough of the pieces yet. Which is a totally obvious thing to say I know.
Still the idea that we might end up having to choose between our freedom and kris’s freedom somehow, or their happiness or our happiness, sticks in my mind as is so poignant to me. Because I want kris to have their freedom but what they want could also be at odds with what I want. Or is it their happiness I care about more? If I knew they’d be happy without their freedom would I chose my own instead? From how terrifying I found the scene at the end of chapter 2, where I was unable to see if the characters I’d grown to care about were in danger and unable to do anything about it, afraid kris might do something I wouldn’t like, maybe their freedom isn’t what I want.
Was the voice at the start even telling the truth? Or was it a malicious entity that doesn’t want us to have freedom. After all, the message we were told through all of undertale was kill or be killed, and then it turned out to be proven wrong. Maybe we’ll come to find out that our choices do matter after all.
At this point I really don’t know what I’m trying to say, it’s late and I’m tired. But it’s bothering me that it feels like Im right at the edge of figuring it out. So I’ll just leave this here anyway.
On a more personal note (as if it wasn’t already mostly a big personal note lol) the idea of someone being able to predict my actions is kind of ridiculous to me because most of the time it seems I can’t even predict my own actions lmao.
See my entire life I’ve relied on gut feelings and impulsivity to drive most of my decisions, it was just how I naturally functioned. I always had incredibly strong “gut” feelings and because they felt so real and important I always assumed they had to be true and real. But almost two years ago I got an adhd diagnosis and have slowly been realizing that a lot of those intense feelings are a symptom of the hyperactivity, overly sensitive emotions, and impulsivity that comes with adhd. People with adhd tend to have a hard time regulating their emotions because they simply feel them a lot stronger than neurological people do, it’s something we share with autistic people. And now I’m taking medication that helps a lot with regulating my emotions. And I’ve learned that I need to let some time pass before making decisions or acting on impulses because a lot of times those hyper strong feelings telling me something is true or I want something end up just being spur of the moment things that don’t apply anymore once they’ve passed. And it can be big or small, anywhere between seeing something cute in the store that I think I NEED only to walk out and immediately not even want it that much anymore, to meeting someone new and thinking I’m in love with them and have to date them immediately only to find out once the excitement of meeting someone new wears off I don’t actually have feelings for them at all.
It also does feel sometimes like I’m not even in control of my own brain. Executive dysfunction can make it immensely difficult to get up and accomplish tasks that should be simple, which means whenever I randomly get hit with motivation I need to take advantage of it or else things won’t get done as quickly, and I don’t really have a way of predicting when that motivation will strike. My brain also latches on to different interests at seemingly random intervals, and while it’s latched on to something it’s like the only thing I can think about or want to do, but then it can suddenly get bored out of nowhere and then all interest I previously had fades and I can hardly get myself to care about the thing anymore, no matter how much I used to love it. So a lot of my days end up going totally different to how I planned them or expected them to play out. And even more would if I had no responsibilities I cared about and could satisfy my every whim.
So I guess in the end I kind of empathize with kris and only end up loving them more and more the more we learn about them. Despite the fact that the game seems determined to show us how vastly different we are lol. But at least I get the benefit of those random things my brain does usually being pretty enjoyable to me, or at least they feel that way. It still feels like something I want in the moment even if it changes later. It seems like a lot of the choices we can make for kris are things they don’t even want in the moment. Though some of them do seem enjoyable. So who knows lol
I was more referring to that second case, the lack of control we have over how we think, rather than physical barriers. Good comment though.
@@Fenrick we may not have complete control over every thought that pops into our brains, but at least we have control over whether to voice them or act on them or not. Which is what really matters I think, since our thoughts have no impact on the world or people around us unless we “manifest” them, for lack of a better word. It does get a little harder stopping them from impacting ourselves but I think it helps to remember that they bear no weight unless we give them that weight. Otherwise they just fade away like they came. They don’t have to be reality
Which unfortunately is the control we’ve taken away from kris. They don’t have a choice on what thoughts are acted on because we decide for them. At least for now. And that makes me sad
Great Video! I Enjoyed it a lot!
Glad you liked it.
My theory about kris needing the soul is that he's actually dying and need's us to keep him alive and i say this because i remember a dialogue saying something about kris moving like a zombie and anotehr thing that i noticed is whenever he rips out his soul which we are in control of the dialogue from other character's refer to kris as "him" as seen by susies dialogue when we were not in control near the end of chapter 2.
Great analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Glad to hear you liked it.
I’m fairly certain that “The Player”, Kris, and “The Knight” are three separate entities inside Kris’ body. The Player and Kris reside inside the SOUL, with the Knight taking over whenever they like. After all, why would Kris have such jerky, zombie-like movements when controlling their own body?
Maybe it's because they need a soul to function properly?
@@pablopereyra7126 That doesn't even apply, as the same weird movements happen in the first chapter when the soul was still in Kris
I don't know but, maybe because they weakens a lot when their soul is removed? maybe they use all their energy trying to get it out? idk...
maybe the soul have a part of energy that Kris's body needs? that's why they came back to normal when the soul its back on their place???
Since the SOUL is a separate entity from Kris, I do think we're gonna end up transferring our SOUL to the vessel we created in the first chapter
When we finish creating it, it says our "wonderful creation" will be *discarded*
But if it was thrown away, that means it WAS created, and we can find it somewhere
The only problem with this solution is that Kris would be left without a SOUL
I've thought about that. I can imagine a few interesting scenarios where the vessel returns. I don't think it's very likely though but who knows.
@@Fenrick The Thrash Machine that we create in Chapter 1 gets blown up, only to be re-built and have a fairly important role in Chapter 2. I think that this is foreshadowing that a similar kind of thing will happen to the Vessel we created.
I think another take could be this:
Nobody can chose who they are in this world.
But the player can.
Sure, the game says your choices dont matter, but they dont matter TO YOU. They still effect how the other characters perceve Kris. We know that Kris still has the power of Loading and Saving to an extent, as Kris themselves can still see the Save Points. I wonder if Kris has been through these events before, where Kris wants to change something that happens at the end of the week, but still wants some events to occur, which is why they keep opening Dark Worlds.
adding in the kris as kris part is a good subtle third variable
I love this content you have good theories.
Thanks man.
Jesus Christ this video made me question life itself
This doesn't have much to do with the video but I like how the battles between Undertale and Deltarune differ. What I mean by that is that in Undertale, you have a first person perspective during battles while in Deltarune, you have a third person perspective.
I like to think of us as kris's conscience, not necessesarily choosing to do anything they wouldn't do themselves. This still actually plays into determinism; you could say were also puppets in the same way that kris is because we also have conscience. Could you choose to jump off a cliff or kill your loved ones with no prior reasoning? Not really, you're conscience will always stop you, even making you repulsed by the idea. Kris is aware of us just as we can be aware of our own conscience, and is disturbed by the idea that we are above them, but acknowledges that they cant be themselves without a conscience either. They're struggling with trying to understand themselves and the nature of free will, as many kids like kris will do at their age/
However I think this is only 1 dimension to kris's soul. We can also go beyond kris's will in the snowgrave path, even deciding the actions and thoughts of characters other than kris. Our ability to influence this world grows stronger the more we reach our hand into it, just like how the characters in undertale and deltarune can gain exp by comitting murders. So its the players choice to either be a benign influence, or an extradimensional tyrant capable of destroying realities.
I agree with you on the nature of one's conscience, I think there are definitely decisions it "isn't possible" for certain people to make.
This is a really cool and interesting video! I love the idea that Ralsei is basically acting as a dungeon master, and the discussion of what it means to be a player character reminds me of how I decided that Gordon Freeman never shoots first when I played the Half-Life games. It's also interesting to think that Kris might want us dictating their actions as the soul, to me it adds an element of trust to the equation. Like, Kris is putting their trust in you as the player to do the right thing, albeit we don't really know what the right thing is in their eyes. Do they want some kind of snowgrave-induced transcendence regardless of the cost, or is going down that route a betrayal of the trust they put in you? Maybe they rip you out when they need to do something that they either don't trust you with or know that you aren't capable of within the confines of Deltarune's inputs. Lots of interesting stuff to think about!
Thanks, glad you liked it. I've also thought about characters like Gordon... Maybe a subject for another video someday. I really do look forward to seeing how the others might respond to the snowgrave antics too.
I never thought about this question until deltarune and it's a very terrifying concept, specially if assuming that Kris was against what WE did to Noelle on Snowgrave and even what WE made him do with Ralsei.
Maybe Kris will make us answer for our sins...
the only times kris and our wishes align are when
a: we eat the moss
b: Kris Get The Banana
one of the things that i picked up from undertale is that alot of flavor text and such might actually be from a characters interpitation of the world(in undertale theres alot of ways to look at it that chara is the one giving alot the flavor text that is following you around as a spirit from entering the underground). looking at some of the check texts for some chars like berdly "He usually only gets this mad when you play games together." when you do the check for him, it is a bit off saying "when you play games together" in how its phrased so im not 100% sure how to take this epecially when considering that we the player havnt played any games with berdly.
the second thing i want to specificly point out that we know what chris wants to some degree is the teas you can get, and i will be personally seeing how these teas effect party members as each chapter goes forward. but theres some asumptions we can already take note of. ralsei and noelle dont know eachother so there basicly neutral in a sense and each others tea heals them for 50 HP, by all means this is a point 0 affection towards each other and intresting to see how things are compared to the others.(noelle cant taste susie and ralseis without hacks, but noelle drinking susie tea is a 400 heal so i think theres some use for later chapters?), the ones i find intresting though is kris drinking ralsei tea is 60 so there isnt a outright distaste towards him, and kris and noelle drinking eachothers tea is 70, so its probably safe to say the way noelle considers kris is about the same lvl as kris to noelle. kris and susie drinking eachothers tea is 120 so they definintly consider them self friends
I am an oblivious idiot so you might have been trying to say this and it just flew over my head but... I always read the line "your choices dont matter" as directed towards kris. Kris's choices dont matter but you, the player's choices, do matter. Sorry if im stating the obvious.
After Chapter 2 released, I replayed Chapter 1, and the first line after the Vessel gets discarded is "No one can choose who they are in this world." The 'in this world' part makes me think that you can't make choices in Hometown, because that's the world we start in. The Dark Worlds are different worlds, though, so maybe choices matter more there. (Also, Hometown *is* a Dark World now, so that might affect things too.)
Your choices cant change the full story of ur life, but they can change anything else
What you're gonna do today, who are your friends, what you like, thats up to you
But going to college, nope
Thats deltarune's story in a nutshell
when the 7 chapters are fully released im waiting for a route
where all your choices matches with kris choices. giving you something special at the end
YOU'RE BACK, YES
Never left! Didn't mean for this to take as long as it did, and hopefully I'll have something else by next weekend...
@@Fenrick I just noticed something that adds on to your tea theory (specifically, that Kris isn't too fond of Ralsei):
When Kris drinks the Ralsei Tea, they gain 50 HP, but Susie reacts exactly the same way as she would have if she saw Kris drinking Kris Tea ("No reaction?") which only heals 10 HP, with the difference being Ralsei saying "I'm happy."
This leads me to believe that Kris was SUPPOSED to be healed 10 HP by the tea, but Ralsei used a healing spell on Kris when they drank the tea to give the player the impression that Kris likes Ralsei so the player would "choose" (force) Kris to act affectionately to Ralsei to the enjoyment of Ralsei.
(I understand that this is a stretch ^^")
@@fleecemanjenkins6648 Maybe, but it's fun to speculate either way (:
I've thought about similar things to this before, so it's nice to see someone else describe and present these thoughts, probably better than I could too!
Since you described how a character could feel when their body is taken over by the player (Good choice to use MGS2 clips, hah hah hah!), here's something else to ponder on: What about when you create a character for you to inhabit, as happens in many RPGs, including DELTARUNE itself? From a meta perspective, they spontaneously appear in a world where they previously did not exist. If they could gain a mind of their own separate from the player, would they feel like they have no effect on the world since they were only able act on our commands?
"Have you ever thought about a world where everything is exactly the same...
Except you don't exist?" - Goner Kid, UNDERTALE
I personally think Snowgrave will not bring freedom, but the shadow crystals will
DAMN KRIS! HOW DARE YOU NOT WANT TO HUG RALSEI FOREVER!
I think on a normal playthrough the role of the player is a sort of ‘intervention’ into Kris’ downward spiraling life. He’s dealing with a broken home, badly missing his brother, and has begun opening dark world fountains around town.
We help him to recover from this bad emotional state by directing him to make the friendships and connections he wouldn’t be able to make on his own.
They
@@MxPokirby 1. No one likes a pedantic person.
2. Biologically impossible.
I'm going to go against the norm so please bear with me.
this argument Kris is fighting the player for control of their own body does work after the game
everyone seems to forget this one thing in the beginning of the game after we wake up as Kris
there's a little cage at the foot of their bed and when you examine it,
it says the cage has suffered several crashes and that cage was there long before the player.
because of that it makes it less about Kris vs the player but instead makes more sense if is
Kris mind vs Kris emotions.
Slightly off topic but if you enjoy the meta-textual themes in Deltarune I highly recommend LAVINIA by Ursula K. Le Guin
Thanks for the recommendation.
I think this destroys any idea of ludonarrative dissonance, two birds with one stone.
Snow grave makes me think back to the "your choices dont matter in this world" cause its not by "Your choices" being kris but instead the choices made by Noelle... Since you cant effect the world through kris but can affect it through other characters...
Our choice does matter but this is not our host. Not our vessel not our home and not our story. We are merely there to try and help so let's do our best. Our vessel is back in undertale. More or less.
undertale was about the relationship between the player and the world
deltarune is about the relationship between the player and the mc
I really do think deltarune wants us to think if we are a puppet or the puppeteer. Is the freedom of choise just an illusion. Example you could, just go and jump, for no reason at all. Whould that be your choise, or whould that be predetermined. Since if you jump, you are lisening to the command of fate but if you decide not to you still are doing what you are told. Its a wierd paradox that's hard to escape.
Kris is no diffrent, he alredy has a predetermined path, unless kris leaves the soul behind, he can't choose he can't decide.
Thats mostly i think the common referring theme of "your choises dont matter" because if you do (in example) jump or not, your choise doesn't matter because it was alredy predetermined/chosen.
I don't know if this means anything, but there are 7 chapters in deltarune's story, similar to how in undertale, 7 human souls were needed to free the monsters from the underground. Maybe there is a connection between these 2, were at the end of the seventh chapter of deltarune, kris is able to be liberated from the players control through the help of the 7 potential secret bosses throughout all of the chapters (assuming each chapter has 1 secret boss i.e spamton and jevil). The last 2 and only secret bosses so far have had themes of freedom related to their characters, as well as both bosses "becoming your strength" after you defeat by becoming items in your inventory. Also spamton talks about how kris, susie and ralsei could "break their own strings" with "a power like that" after you defeat him in the spamton neo fight. Anyways, all of the mentions of freedom and "breaking strings" makes me think that at the end of deltarune, with the help of all of the items collected from the sevret bosses, kris might finally be set free from the players control, just like how in undertale, the 7 human souls freed the monsters from the underground. Idk though, it's just my theory.
7 is also a number widely considered to have interesting properties, with biblical significance for instance. I always had a sense it wasn't chosen randomly.
God I miss these videos
wake me up in 2030 when the whole game is done
10:17 this reminds me of a nightmare I had when I was little: I needed to pee but I couldn't find a freaking bathroom anywhere! it was literally IMPOSSIBLE ..... because I was in a dream
Lol but for real now it's kinda similar XD
This actually has a potential for a fan comic between the player and Kris
Personally, the way I see it is that since the soul is where emotion and stuff is held (according to Ralsei), Kris is not fighting the player perse, rather he's fighting the emotions building from Asriel's approaching return, which makes it harder to think or do things he once found easy or fun.
Asriel's return is bittersweet, causing emotions to go haywire, which is why Kris is constantly at odds with the soul.
If only we're able to demostrate our situation to Kris as to the limitations of action we have directly. The piano gag only seemed to make Kris think we're an idiot making him look bad.
2:18
i always thought deltarune and our world are too different to interact with eachother but the connection between the soul in Kris and the "player" has the influence of a certain unknown person who is scattered throughout time
I tell you what, im sick of everyone saying "tHe PlAyEr iS tHe BaD gUy", just let me play the video game. ( especially considering ive never done snowgrave.)
I don't think the way someone plays the game reflects on the player as a person, and it's one of the more annoying things that fans have done.
Pathologic 2 footage pog
That scene with bad grief left an impression on me
Good content.
i think we dont know enough yet to put together a full theory on this, the black fog from the end of chapter 2 may have something to do with it if it comes back
Your choices dont matter, but Noelle's does
I always thought that it was someone telling Kris that his choices don't matter. The player occupies a character without choices and only by separating yourself from the characters that keep you in line... you can find loop holes to gain control. Kris probably hates what we do no matter what cuz none of it was his choice. It would be interesting to see the player take the most peaceful route possible only to find out that the main character isn't satisfied with the outcome and perhaps manages to do something drastic that it punishes us. Encouraging us to take a darker road less travelled. The best ending for Kris would be to let him free but we can't let him. It's a game after all.
Our choices matter at least a bit. Berdly can be killed in Snowgrave, but you can just reset, right? Wrong. If you play the game after Snowgrave and get up to the second Berdly fight, the game remembers. It states "smells like frozen chicken"...
Berdly doesn't die bro, he's just asleep :)
@@Nagasakevideo False. If you use snowgrave on a maus, it’s shown to be dead. If you violently defeat Queen without interacting with berdly, his arm is paralyzed and that transfers to the real world showing that he’s dead in the real world
@@Blocky_Frog naw he just slept on his arm wrong :)
Its just a dream man, idk what you're so worried about :)
It's a good thing you traumatized the deer girl......
snowgrave wakes up Noelle to Kris not acting to Kris , even to existence of the playar by being able to tell apart our voce from Kris's . by doing snowgrave you might be crating your own reckoning once Noelle figures out that you are not doing what you are doing to get stronger , but from a perverse sense of curiosity of what if , sounds familiar ? or maybe not even that but a drive to save Kris from this malicious voice that made her hurt her friend
I'm bouta have an existential crisis. °Д°
one thing we definitely need too keep in mind is that our actions as a player are determined as well, in a sense. We can only interact with the game as the developers allow us to.
Plus I reject in part the assumption that the mere act of playing is harmful, time wouldn't progress without us, the characters only exist when we're playing, would the alternative really be better?
So there are 2 secret boses so far that have themes of freedom(what Kris does not have)and that met a strange man(probally Gaster) and went insane.Both spamton and Jevik draw pararels to Kris (spamton does more but whatevs)
So what if Gaster gave Kris His soul or our soul i guess.
What are our own choices but a chain of chemical reactions produced by a slab of salt, fat, and meat inside our skull? All choices are predetermined (well, unless true randomness exists in the universe or something supernatural can bend the rules of cause and effect but the former isn’t particularly more interesting and the latter just begs more questions)
Nice video! Very organized, well-constructed arguments, and potent questions! Minor question: what is the music you used during the introduction? I liked it but didn't recognize it as from Deltarune.
It's from a game called Contact for the Nintendo DS which also has some interesting meta elements, so I figured it was appropriate.
I love how Berdley-go-nuts can turn his head backwards. You know, because bird.
0:04 I identify more with Alphys and Nerdley. >///w///<
0:45 / 6:31 One of the reasons why people play D&D in the first place.
3:09 Oh, come on, Suzers! Even if you're into rides, you've gotta at least appreciate the fact that..."the fair is a veritable smorgasbord - orgasbord - orgasbord...."
3:36 Susie and Spamton both dig the macro motif. Imagine if Undertale's version of Alphys, after crossing over into this dimension thanks to Gaster (allegedly) - which would be in keeping with her Walter Bishop vibe, I might add (in which case, Gaster would be William Bell) - built a VR simulator that allowed Lightners and Darkners to co-op in VR games built from their thoughts and feelings! Susie and Spamton would both take part in a VR version of 'Rampage' fer sure!
7:36 Is Kris left-handed? Not enough left-handed characters in video games! In Undertale, Sans and Asgore are both left-handed.
8:15 Gotta wonder what the significance is of all the Masonic/Kabbalic symbolism in the Toby-go-nuts mythos. Pewdiepie referred to Undertale as "an Illuminati game," but the Illuminati's goals are mostly political, not mystical. It's true that they recruit through the Freemasons, who borrow a lot of their iconography from Kabbala, but the Illuminati regard the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry to be a waste of time. Also, Toby is from Boston which has been a Masonic stronghold since before the American Revolution.
Note: The twin staircases have different meanings depending on context, but it's a recurring motif in Freemasonry and Kabbala, along with pillar and archway motifs, three dots arranged in a triangle, and various configurations of circles and traingles. Freemasonry has the twin pillars known as Boaz ("boh'OZ") and Jachin ("ya'KHEEN"). Kabbala has the three pillars which represent mercy, mildness, and severity (which symbolically correspond with True Pacifist, Neutral, and Genocide). Notice the recurring "three pillar" motifs at the beginning of Undertale, both in the opening cutscene and in various rooms in the Ruins. Also, the Delta Rune symbol's upper portion is a winged sun which is a recurring symbol on ancient architecture throughout the Near East and Middle East, particularly Egypt. Scholars corroborate that it likely represents the worship of royalty as divinity. Contrast that with Asgore's assertion that he "never wanted power." Also, I don't think the goat folk represent Baphomet. Asgore especially has more in common with Cernunnos of Celtic mythology. Conflating Cernunnos with Baphomet could be construed as some form of cultural expropriation. And we know Toby-go-nuts wouldn't do that.
10:54 Existential dread.
11:44 Snowgrave is Chaotic Evil. Possibly Neutral Evil since the willingness to manipulate others into being your "puppets" is a Lawful Evil tendency (since you're playing the role of a tyrant taking free will away from others), but doing so for the sake of causing mayhem for your own amusement is Chaotic Evil.
12:00 Chaos = freedom = left-hand path. Or we could use Promethean imagery to describe the same concept.
12:07 Does that mean Ralsei is an Agent Smith type of figure? Or maybe more like The Architect or The Analyst, representing order, predictability, and the proverbial "blue pill." But we see him take on "red pill" individualist traits thanks to Susie's influence.
12:15 The movie 'Free Guy' flips that paradigm upside-down. In a world where Chaotic Evil is the status quo, Lawful Good becomes a form of rebellion.
15:41 Why does he shoot right-handed if he has a dead right eye? That lack of attention to detail has always irked me. And just because I'm left-eye dominant. Another example would be the Die Hard games. Bruce Willis is left-handed, therefore John McClane is left-handed. The only Die Hard game that gets this right is Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza.
16:35 "Years into someone's life" unless their past is just fake memories like in the original Total Recall.
18:44 Spamton NEO would have woken up from the Matrix.
I bet if the player ends having to fight Kris we’ll probably be represented by the vessel that was discarded
In my view, many things in Deltarune serve to show our presence as Kris, is not being the character, but controlling the character, especially compared to Undertale. These things are small details that aren't even hidden, they're just not that flashy.
I think the saying of "Your choices don't matter" was talking to Kris and not the player. When we go through the character creation in the first chapter, we're making Kris and not the player, we're just following through the character creation process that all the other NPCs go through. However, there's another character creation process in the second chapter where we can enter the name of the player, that name likely being the name of the soul which has the power to determine its own actions.
You have fully control kris, while brain controls you
I'm going with the idea that Kris is "using" the player as a test, to understand what's outside their reality.
If the only way to truly free Kris is this games version of genoside route then I'm not even playing. But... What I think is more likely is that the freedom requires the secret bosses and the dark crystals they drop.
i personally think that Kris is actually really nice and, even though YOU are torturing them, and Kris just wants you out of their life, they still put you back to make you feel better.