I’m a counselor who isChristian and have always worked for faith-based practices. I even went to a Christian university to get my counseling education because I know how kookie secular therapists can be. I view what I do as a ministry to this who are hurting and I’m genuinely trying to help people get better. It disturbs me to think Christians might avoid therapy all together simply because of a few bad examples. Before becoming a counselor I was also a pastor and I can tell you pastors don’t get nearly enough counseling training and can do more harm than good sometimes. So, please, if you’re hurting and struggling with a major problem, seek out a counselor who has a good reputation and track record and adheres to ethical practices and Christian principles. We are out there.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that there is even a need for so-called "mental health counseling". Allow me to clarify: Behavioral health sciences training aside, most pastors are NOT otherwise equipped to handle the real behavioral health needs of people, but it isn't for the reasons you (or most) might think; meaning, it is not for lack of formal education or training. In a word, it is due to a lack of relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. Most pastors in churches today lack even a basic understanding of HOLY SPIRIT (and how the spirit realm works), nevermind the fact that they are not even walking in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. If "JESUS is the ultimate healer", then that's all that needs to be said and there is no other "healer" but HIM (and HOLY SPIRIT; GOD in the Trinity). I believe it is clear that ALL behavioral health issues are demonic in origin and, therefore, must be met head-on in the spirit realm (by and with HOLY SPIRIT), not in a clinical setting or with a "trained mental health counselor". We might agree that the Bible alone is not enough, as the Bible merely educates us as to the reality of the demonic existence in the spirit realm, but the Bible alone CANNOT equip any believer to address any of those realities in the spirit realm. Believers in CHRIST need to be in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT in order to be successful doing that. (It's the difference between knowing that some can benchpress 400lbs versus allowing GOD to strengthen our muscles over time to make us stronger, such that we become capable of bench-pressing 400lbs in HIM, by and through HIS power). I do not deny that many (specifically) mental health issues have a cerebro-chemical reality, but that does NOT mean that the underlying "condition" is not demonic in origin. I will prove my point to you in the following: Take Tourette Syndrome, for example. Why does this "syndrome" (that is defined in the DSM) result in such demonic and foul language? Why doesn't it result in the sufferer incessantly uttering the word "watermelon" or any other pedestrian and arbitrary word(s)? Why is it that so many so-called "mental health conditions" result in attempts at SUlClDE and ideation thereof? Again, why don't they merely result in the sufferer uncontrollably eating apples instead of attempting SUlClDE? Why is it that the outcome (or attempted outcome) of so many "clinical mental disorders" is death and destruction that truly robs the sufferer of healthy living? Why does that sound so familiar? "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:10) In short, the evil one is the cause of ALL mental illness and behavioral issues, and JESUS (and the HOLY SPIRIT) is the only true cure! The pastor of our church recently did a series on mental health, and he classified some mental health issues as "spritual", others as "physical", and some as "medical" (or "clinical"), suggesting that the latter category requires intervention from "mental health experts". This is such a cop-out! If JESUS is the "ultimate healer", then why are we looking to the culture to provide remedies? On one Sunday during the series, he invited a married couple to speak from out-of-state. They were both "licensed mental health counselors" with the wife having a masters degree and the husband having some sort of doctoral degree. They own their own counseling center and see patients regularly (and have been doing so for 30yrs). They both claimed to be Christians. There were three things that struck me most about their talk: 1) The wife shared some biblical passages at the beginning, glossing over them so quickly that I literally could not turn to each passage of scripture before she had moved on to the next (and I know my way around the Bible!). 2) After plastering about eight Bible verses on-screen and quickly rattling them off, the wife covering all of them in a span of about 5min, the husband then puts on-screen some excerpts from the DSM and spends a lengthy amount of time covering its claims. (I cannot be sure how long it was, but it was easily 15min; a far cry longer than they had spent sharing from the Bible.) BTW: For those of you who don't know, the DSM is a demonically-inspired book that has been changed over time, as subsequent editions have been "updated". The current version, DSM-5-TR, no longer regards homosexuality as a mental condition, and the APA has affirmed homosexuality as a "normal" behavior not requiring therapy. What business has anyone to recite from this demonic book in the affirmative during a church service? 3) The husband rattled off some general mental health statistics in the beginning of their talk, and he made an audacious statement after doing so, saying, "I don't need the HOLY SPIRIT to tell me [BLANK, regarding the statistics because he was supremely confident of the data in his field]." That was all I needed to hear right there. I finally closed my Bible in disgust, seeing as how it was not going to be needed. In hindsight, I wish I had told my wife and daughter that we are leaving and got up and walked out.
Clinical depression is real. Therapy can help. Medication can help. Doesn’t always help- sometimes they hurt. But they certainly can help. Using modern day science isn’t always bad. He is making it sound like depression is just a bad feeling or low self esteem. Yeah it’s more than that. Dr. Johnson appears very ignorant on true clinical disorders. Biblical counseling I believe would be beneficial for pre/marriage counseling, spiritual warfare, getting out of a rut, etc. Sometimes we need more help. I am certain God has used my clinical depression (controlled by medication secondary to His Word and Himself) to draw me closer to Himself. I’m so thankful for that.
I always had the teams I managed complete the Myers-Briggs and was proud of the use of the tool to identify our strengths. About a year ago, the Holy Spirit spoke to me about identifying with secular personality designations and reminded me that "we are crucified with Christ" and our identify is in Him. I got rid of all the personality assessment stuff.
@jane6732 whoa 😮 praise God, a little over year now, while I was speaking with someone about being an introvert and my proclivities and tendencies- I heard the Holy Spirit say Stop, no longer will you identify with such things. Then with understanding that only He could show in the Word, it was about are identity in Christ and putting away vein and empty philosophies. I learned about being an introvert when I was in corporate America and taking the Myers Briggs assessment. Now I fully realize that with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I am sufficient in Christ’s sufficiency!
I used to like that test, until I heard about this spiritual stuff behind it - I strongly recognised myself from the type description it gave me, and it made me feel more valid being a more, I guess dynamic and assertive person in a country of more chill and docile people. I felt like I was a "thing" and not just "that person". Not that anyone looks down on me, but I often stand out. I also think part of the charm of the test is that it takes these small distinct details about us and combines them into an easily readable and understandable "profile". It gives you that "Aha!" experience, even though technically you knew all of the stuff already, now it's just worded neatly and compactly instead of a hundred separate bullet points inside of our heads.
I think the only time sometimes I get frustrated with these conversations is we only touch on feeling sad and calling it depression or feeling worried and calling it anxiety. As someone with a loved one with severe schizophrenia, I’d like to hear more biblical discussion on the handling of really difficult mental illness. (I’m not taking away from those that struggle with depression or anxiety.)
Complicated things like schizophrenia might be a physical problem in the brain. When there is a physical issue present Bible won’t help unless God miraculously heals someone. Chris Palmer is a good resource on mental issues from a metabolic perspective. Sometimes biblical counseling and secular counseling might approach a certain issue through a psychological(soul) aspect, but the issue might be on a physical level.
I hear you, sis... youre making an important point that needs to be addressed, as i have had my own experiences... will be praying for your family member 🙏🏽
Until the Church returns to fellowship with HOLY SPIRIT, we will not see such "biblical discussions" on how Christians are to handle such serious mental conditions (which are 100% demonic, BTW). Sadly, we are a weak Bride today, and most pastors have no relationship with HOLY SPIRIT, not to mention the same for "normal" Christians (who are NOT pastors). The reason the Church isn't equipped to handle it (and other demonic manifestations) is because we are a weak Bride who is NOT walking in the SPIRIT of GOD!
My husband and I saw a pre-marital Christian counselor before we got married. It literally saved our relationship. I thank God for the talented and compassionate brothers and sisters in Christ who see the worst of humanity [every day] and still give God the glory.
Was listening to the introduction and automatically thought about the differences between Biblical and Christian counseling.... Then my old Biblical counseling professor who taught me that pops on the screen! Wonderful professor and my favorite class that had real impact on my daily life. Thank you Dr Johnson!
I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and I am a Christian. I went to seminary to get my degree (Masters in Christian Counseling) because I believe Jesus is the ultimate healer and I wanted a Biblical perspective but there are different options. I pursued licensure, which is regulated by a board and we accept insurance, etc. Many pastors I know studied professional counseling but many other pastors I know studied Biblical counseling. There is a difference and I agree many people do not know that difference but there is a need for both! While the Bible is the most important authority in my life, I would not go to my pastor or someone trained in the Bible, for a medical issue- diabetes, broken foot or to deliver my baby, or even a mental health issues. There is a time and place for both types of counseling. Some adjustment or marital distress, Biblical counseling is probably sufficient and I agree that the local church should be the place that hurting people can go, but even my pastor knows his limits. He will meet with people and often refer them to our office because his knowledge is limited.
As a medical provider I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this. God gives us all knowledge and science is from God. This is like telling someone to go to their pastor to treat their diabetes. A secular counselor for a Christian is a terrible idea. But a LICENSED counselor who is ALSO a CHRISTIAN is the best of both!
I am a patient with severe complex ptsd and was deeply hurt by the church because they had no understanding of how to help someone like me. It's time the church looked at this serious issue that it's neglected for so long. There are so many of us out there , the one isolated not part of the ninety nine. We need the church and we need counseling. I would love it if we could find it it one place.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that there is even a need for so-called "mental health counseling". Allow me to clarify: Behavioral health sciences training aside, most pastors are NOT otherwise equipped to handle the real behavioral health needs of people, but it isn't for the reasons you (or most) might think; meaning, it is not for lack of formal education or training. In a word, it is due to a lack of relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. Most pastors in churches today lack even a basic understanding of HOLY SPIRIT (and how the spirit realm works), nevermind the fact that they are not even walking in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. If "JESUS is the ultimate healer", then that's all that needs to be said and there is no other "healer" but HIM (and HOLY SPIRIT; GOD in the Trinity). I believe it is clear that ALL behavioral health issues are demonic in origin and, therefore, must be met head-on in the spirit realm (by and with HOLY SPIRIT), not in a clinical setting or with a "trained mental health counselor". We might agree that the Bible alone is not enough, as the Bible merely educates us as to the reality of the demonic existence in the spirit realm, but the Bible alone CANNOT equip any believer to address any of those realities in the spirit realm. Believers in CHRIST need to be in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT in order to be successful doing that. (It's the difference between knowing that some can benchpress 400lbs versus allowing GOD to strengthen our muscles over time to make us stronger, such that we become capable of bench-pressing 400lbs in HIM, by and through HIS power). I do not deny that many (specifically) mental health issues have a cerebro-chemical reality, but that does NOT mean that the underlying "condition" is not demonic in origin. I will prove my point to you in the following: Take Tourette Syndrome, for example. Why does this "syndrome" (that is defined in the DSM) result in such demonic and foul language? Why doesn't it result in the sufferer incessantly uttering the word "watermelon" or any other pedestrian and arbitrary word(s)? Why is it that so many so-called "mental health conditions" result in attempts at SUlClDE and ideation thereof? Again, why don't they merely result in the sufferer uncontrollably eating apples instead of attempting SUlClDE? Why is it that the outcome (or attempted outcome) of so many "clinical mental disorders" is death and destruction that truly robs the sufferer of healthy living? Why does that sound so familiar? 🤔 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:10) In short, the evil one is the cause of ALL mental illness and behavioral issues, and JESUS (and the HOLY SPIRIT) is the only true cure! The pastor of our church recently did a series on mental health, and he classified some mental health issues as "spritual", others as "physical", and some as "medical" (or "clinical"), suggesting that the latter category requires intervention from "mental health experts". This is such a cop-out! If JESUS is the "ultimate healer", then why are we looking to the culture to provide remedies? On one Sunday during the series, he invited a married couple to speak from out-of-state. They were both "licensed mental health counselors" with the wife having a masters degree and the husband having some sort of doctoral degree. They own their own counseling center and see patients regularly (and have been doing so for 30yrs). They both claimed to be Christians. There were three things that struck me most about their talk: 1) The wife shared some biblical passages at the beginning, glossing over them so quickly that I literally could not turn to each passage of scripture before she had moved on to the next (and I know my way around the Bible!). 2) After plastering about eight Bible verses on-screen and quickly rattling them off, the wife covering all of them in a span of about 5min, the husband then puts on-screen some excerpts from the DSM and spends a lengthy amount of time covering its claims. (I cannot be sure how long it was, but it was easily 15min; a far cry longer than they had spent sharing from the Bible.) BTW: For those of you who don't know, the DSM is a demonically-inspired book that has been changed over time, as subsequent editions have been "updated". The current version, DSM-5-TR, no longer regards homosexuality as a mental condition, and the APA has affirmed homosexuality as a "normal" behavior not requiring therapy. What business has anyone to recite from this demonic book in the affirmative during a church service? 3) The husband rattled off some general mental health statistics in the beginning of their talk, and he made an audacious statement after doing so, saying, "I don't need the HOLY SPIRIT to tell me [BLANK, regarding the statistics because he was supremely confident of the data in his field]." That was all I needed to hear right there. I finally closed my Bible in disgust, seeing as how it was not going to be needed. In hindsight, I wish I had told my wife and daughter that we are leaving and got up and walked out.
I think it very much so depends. Matters of mental and emotional anguish or stress is nearly grunted to be bound in some way to the areas of morality, righteousness, and sin. I think going to your pastor when you’re struggling with chronic depression makes perfect sense as opposed to going to him with a broken foot- If that makes sense.
My husband is a therapist. He is a Christian, but he is not a “Christian therapist”. He uses researched-backed therapies to help people who desperately need help. Things like CBT, and Exposure response therapy shouldn’t be thought of as “secular”. They are just treatments that help people who have mental afflictions in the same way medical doctors use medicine and other treatments to help people with physical afflictions.
My son and I both have OCD. Exposure Response Prevention is the gold standard for OCD treated and has helped us both. It is very sad that many Christians avoid therapy even when they are in desperate need.
💯 agree with this ⬆️ . My family was in bondage to toxic fundamentalism, and they mocked those who sought help for trauma, victim-blamed, and forbade going to a counselor. The pastor was a dictator. The IFB church was a cult.
God has been able to use my counselor, who is a Christian, but was trained in the mainstream to help me save my marriage, faith and family. God can use these things for healing, restoration, and His glory. And secular therapists may not give credit where credit is due…but they use realities from God’s order and the design of the human psyche to help people recover and heal. It’s cultish to isolate and not allow people to get the help they need.
When I was a Christian I went to some biblical counseling and it was a terrible experience. Now I very much enjoy my certified therapist who is a Christian.
Thank you for having him on your podcast! Finding out about biblical counseling and learning more about it really transformed my life. I'm so thankful to be able to deal with my personal problems through a biblical lens. It's honestly been so encouraging to figure out my sin issues that I struggle with and to be able to meditate on Scriptures and see what God's Word says about specific issues. One thing I don't understand is when people view acknowledging our sins as shaming. It's not shameful. It's encouraging and awesome to be aware of our struggles and then to be able to act based on what God's Word says. It gives so much freedom to acknowledge and be aware of our sinful tendencies.
So true! It's about our hearts' thoughts, desires and emotions. When sin disorders those, the Bible alone has answers! Biblical counseling changed my life! It's simply the Bible applied to one's life.
One thing that wasn't stressed enough and needs to be said is that if you are a Christian, you should belong to a local church, and that should be the first place and the first people you should be going to for help before you start going anywhere else. Sometimes outside help is needed, but God designed the means of your local church to be the primary way that we get wise counsel, discipleship, and healing.
Amen! There’s so much in the Bible that supports being part of a good church. If you don’t have a good church in your area, move! If you don’t respect your pastor, find a church where you can trust and follow the pastor. My parents moved for a church and that included my dad giving up his dream job - they’ve never regretted it. Also, can anyone share a Bible verse that supports going to a therapist?
@@SeaMichelle1 I hear ya. I guess I am prejudice because I’ve never had a time in my life that I couldn’t get the Biblical counsel I needed from my circle of family and church. I have NEVER gone to my parents or pastor or pastor’s wife for advice or counsel and they told me, “I don’t know and don’t have an answer.” They’ve always been able to share Bible and prayer with me that led me to an answer I had peace and understanding with. It goes back to the thought of the Bible encouraging you to have a home church and shepherd you can follow. Plus, we in America are blessed with freedom to have access to the whole Bible.
You have become one of my favorite podcasts. Thank you for speaking out and having guests on your show that speak out on these topics. It has helped me in my journey as I have stopped taking SSRI's and going down natural routes for my daughter who is on ADHD meds
I’m so very happy to see the stigma of mental health has great changed in just the last 20 years. I had some kind of mental breakdown just over 20 years ago & it was still extremely taboo in the Church & Christian community in general. Brains can malfunction chemically just like any organ can. It took me going to 5 different so called Christian psychologist & psychiatrist to finally find the one who knew how to help me. The story itself is insane. The psychologist led me to the right psychiatrist both Christian. I’ve had this doctor for over 20 years. I still see him every 6 months or more if needed. I do take medication I’ve had severe anxiety & depression as a child. When I got on the right medication those head to heart light bulbs immediately started popping. I went from “yes I know that” to “knowing it in a whole new way”. The 2 different knows in the Greek. I was a pastors kid & accepted Christ at 10 years old. I never doubted my salvation. I strongly believe I went through that so that I could understand others & help them. Not everyone needs medication, some only a short time. Putting teens on medication is scary. I can’t say if I would have benefited from medication then. I’m definitely thankful for the right medication now.
Dr. Dale! I love the way you mention denying the self and continuing with the verse that it doesn't STOP at the juncture. That it continues with "take up your cross" and "follow Him" (Jesus).
There is a difference between being sad or grumbling at the Lord and actual clinical depression, schizophrenia, or serious mental illness. Outside clinical help is sometimes needed, but since the world is unchristian it is often abused and folks are over medicated- kinda like in the whole medical profession in general. It grieves me to see the church be so ignorant about real mental illness.
Super good interview. I have been wondering if such a Biblical counselor still existed in our therapeutic world! Thank you for finding Dr. Johnson and for asking such a great questions.
I have been counselled by the secular therapists and by a Christian therapist and its night and day. I can’t tell you how many secular therapists I saw, but I saw one Christian counsellor and that was all I needed.
Only seven/eight minutes in and loving it. I think it would be amazing to have a roundtable with Dr. Johnson, Dr. Alison Cook, Dr. Regina Boyd and/or Dr. Greg Bottaro about psychology and faith, what true mental wellness is, and the Christian approach to counseling, ect.
I think Dr Johnson's premise that "Christian therapy" being a practice of trying to mash together the wisdom of God and the wisdom of man is overly simplistic and misrepresents Christians who practice therapy (that is, licensed therapists and psychiatrists etc. who are Christians). As others in the comebts here have pointed out, would we call the study of neuro-surgery "the wisdom of man" and therefore avoid seeking treatment from a neurologist for migraines or seizures? God has given us an orderly world and minds to understand the patterns He has laid in it. Using that knowledge in conjunction with a solid grasp on biblical knowledge and truth is not trying to meld the wisdom of man and the wisdom of God.
I completely agree. Whether or not Dr. Johnson realizes it, his argument against Christian counseling is a total straw man. My current counselor is a devout Christian and keeps the gospel at the center of all our discussions. At the same time, he is a LPC and has extensively studied various mental health disorders and their contributing factors. He understands that most of our destructive ways of thinking and behaving have both spiritual and clinical components and that oftentimes those two things go hand in hand. The reason we suffer is ultimately because of sin, be it our own sin or sin committed against us. Basically every Christian will agree that we physically suffer and die because of the fall, and I think think it's perfectly reasonable to apply the same principle to mental health. While unbelievers don't properly understand sin and aren't operating within a Christian framework, because of common grace they can recognize on some level that humans are broken, and they can still make valid observations about the clinical factors that affect a person's mental wellbeing. Of course, without the spiritual component, I would say that secular counseling is lacking at best and in some cases even counterproductive, but that doesn't mean that we should completely discard everything they have to say. For instance, an unbeliever can accurately observe that childhood physical, sexual, and emotional abuse has a negative impact on a person that can last well into adulthood. They can also recognize that factors in the present, such as lack of exercise, poor diet, and hormonal disorders can have an adverse effect on a person's physical and mental wellbeing. I think it is wise and necesary for Christian counselors to incorporate this knowledge into their practice while simultaneously addressing issues of sin and unbelief. To exclusively focus on one or the other is simply irresponsible.
Agreed. Psychology is a science. Just like any science it is the study or observation of things to learn what is true. Studying how molecules work discovers the laws of physics and energy that God established in creation. Psychology simply does the same thing with human behavior and thought. While I agree that many are secularists and that the field has too often pathologized normal human experiences, this does not discount the scientific discoveries that can be used to help us come closer to who we were created to be. As a psychologist and a theologian, I consistently find that neurobiological research reveals biblical truths. The division people like Dr. Johnson create between mental wellness and spiritual wellness is unhelpful. There are many of us who base our therapeutic practices in neuroscience and scriptural truth. It doesn't need to be either/or. There are definite problems with the mental health field, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
Tbh, I’ve never actually fully listened to an episode without skipping through until this episode. This is such a good episode! I loved his take on the enneagram and how he mentioned Jake divisive it can bring. I got biblical counseling in 2020 and it was one of the best things I’ve ever done in my life. Restored and made my marriage the strongest it’s ever been. Saving and sharing this episode!
So frustrated… I am a Christian. I am a therapist. I have been told by some that I cannot adequately counsel Christians unless I have the “Biblical Counselor” certification. I believe in a Biblical worldview and in the Scriptures. I also believe that the Bible does not explain the procedure for heart surgery and would not go to a surgeon who only used the Bible for instruction in that area. I’m also a bit confused by those who don’t believe that counselors should be paid for their expertise and training. Pastors and church staff are paid, why are counselors in a different category?
God provided for us to learn and educate ourselves, what matters is the intent and use of tools or teachings. This black and white, extremist preaching that excludes things that can help people because it wasn't spelled out in the holy book is just driving moderate people away from religion and making people uncomfortable discussing things and sharing ideas...it's unnecessarily narrow minded and limiting and it's a shame.
People use this example often and the difference here is that the heart surgery is a physical problem. Therapists and biblical counselors deal with the soul and the argument biblical counselors will use is that the bible deals with the soul issues. When looking deeper, psychology is a philosophy and not a science, which is why it's not as simple as saying that we go to the doctors for our physical problems. Biblical counselors encourage people to get a physical checkup to make sure they're not dealing with a particular problem due to a physiological problem.
Biblical counselors deal with the soul, yes but many mental health issues are not about soul care but involve physiological issues and the brain. Think neuroscience.
Thank you for your discussing on the Enneagram. We have had heartbreaking estrangement in our family by a member who was very into the Enneagram. This family member has decided that it is better to just cancel relationships rather than try to approach reconciliation with biblical solutions. I never made this connection before your podcast. Thank you!!
I am both a Christian and at the end of my training to become an MFT. I chose the path of MFT because it made sense to me, and I feel it allows me to better serve others as a Christian. I do not have to leave my beliefs out of my practice but have been trained to see how my beliefs inform my practice. While I agree with some of the information provided in this interview, I continually hear testimony of clients who are harmed by Biblical counseling. The pendulum of harm can swing into both secular and Biblical perspectives of counseling or therapy. There are many avenues of counseling or therapy and each approach works differently and has different purposes. The explanation of the differences is simplified by this individual. Do your homework and decide what is the best fit for you as an individual. If you think something is wrong with what you are being told by a counselor or therapist, speak up. We are here to serve others not have others agree with our beliefs.
I'm an atheist who sees a board certified therapist who is a Christian. Highly recommend. Please give it a shot if Biblical counseling doesn't work for you. There is a lot to be said for understanding the human psyche.
I'm confused. So your therapist is a traditional therapist, who is a Christian; and does or doesn't incorporate biblical principles into his/her counseling? Do you or do you not benefit from Christian principles? If you benefit from biblical counseling, wouldn't everyone then, since you're not a believer?
@@DD_LetTheDogsOut she is a Christian who is licensed with the traditional "secular" method. We don't discuss the Bible or Christianity except in cases of religious trauma. She incorporates Christianity into her therapy with fellow Christians. I guess it depends on what you consider biblical principles. There are plenty of things I live by that are in the Bible but if I'm taking the good and leaving what I see as bad I would say I'm not living my life by biblical principles. No I would not say everyone would benefit from biblical counseling. I'm saying everyone would benefit from people trained in understanding and navigating the psyche in ways the Bible doesn't touch and you can get that with a Christian worldview.
@@DD_LetTheDogsOut I tried some biblical counseling when I was a believer and it didn't help at all. Maybe I wasn't a True Believer™ but I sure believed and did my best to seek God.
@jbeiler55 I'm not sure why Christian counseling didn't help- many possible variables. All I know is for me, when I read the Word, my faith only increases. I could not and would not want to live or die without the Lord. I hope you attain that special peace that passes understanding. :)
Allie it'd be great if you had a solid biblically sound Christian Psychologist like Henry Cloud or John Townsend on your show for an integrative perspective
As a Christian who went to CBT therapy before I was saved, therapists absolutely use some methods that conflict with Christianity. If the therapist is not a Christian themselves would not realize this and could potentially lead a new Christian astray. I am not against therapy but I think us Christians should choose carefully.
CBT is actually one of the few secular practices that is proven to work and works because it is essentially a biblical practice. Holding your thoughts captive and building productive disciplines that are contrary to the bad behaviors (sin).
@@RageNRedHead that has absolutely nothing to do with CBT. That's whatever personal secular philosophy the therapist had. It's an amoral tool. It's neither good or evil, it's simply functional. It's a way to get rid of some habits and replace them with others.
Really enjoyed this, it's clear that your guest loves the Lord and has received Jesus the Truth into His heart, the truth that the world cannot receive.
I've gone through the IBCD training which is the first part of the biblical counseling certification with our church. We completely agree that the Word of God brings healing through the Holy Spirits help. Where we disagree is that we believe the brain is not just a place we experience our spiritual wellbeing but also an organ that can get sick so medication and other types of therapy can help bring us to a place where we can listen to biblical counsel. It is not helpful to deny diagnoses and ignore brain health as if it doesn't affect how our brain functions. We also believe in recovery ministries and support groups based on the word of God where ACBC does not think these type of ministries are biblical.
This is the best episode ever!!!! I'm so glad I'm not the only one with this same opinion in regards to "Christian Counseling" as opposed to Biblical Counseling....I have seen so much eek it's way into the life of believers in the name of "Christian Counseling" that have pretty much singlehandedly derailed the faith of those Christians
I wish more people in the church would understand how dangerous the Enneagram is; I was introduced to it in 2014 in the church I attended. Didn't want anything to do with it. Now, a ministry I'm working with isn't convinced that its roots are in the occult. There's a lie that it's roots are in Christianity, which it so clearly isn't. Thank you Allie and Dr. Johnson for bringing this forward.
What if dangerous about it? I'm asking sincerely. It brought a great deal of healing to me. I suppose if one is not a Christian they could use it exclusively. It's just a tool.
Enneagram is rooted in the New Age, occult divination, witchcraft, and Islamic superstition. Enneagram is the new Christian yoga, yet another attempt to take that which is historically and foundational demonic and sanctify it by redefinition and clever semantics. In the words of Isaiah 5:20, “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Research the founders: Oscar Ichazo, Claudio Naranjo, and George Gurdjieff - it’s not “just a tool,” it’s disguised as transcending to this state of full human potential by way of channeling demonic spirits
That’s exactly what it is. I’ve called it a “Christian’s astrology.” Of course, that’s an oxymoron, but saying it that way is kind of jarring and sparks a conversation with people who think it’s a biblical thing to practice. Unfortunately, there are many churches who use the enneagram in spiritual gift classes and Bible studies.
I do want to say, as a parent of a child with autism, there is another side of coin to the social/emotional skills learning that I believe is needed. I definitely see where you are coming from as it being not good, but I think to throw all of it out would not be helpful to some. My child has had to be taught how to relate to other people by rote due to his autism - so, social and emotional skills. If we failed to do this with him, he would not be able to be a future adult who related to a spouse, friends, his kids, coworkers, and those who he could potentially reach for Christ, etc. However, I have the conviction that that has been my and my husband’s responsibility to shepherd his hear and teach him these skills in a gospel-centered way, not his teachers, and I think that’s what you were getting to the heart of. Really a thought-provoking segment - thanks for speaking into all of these very relevant topics!
I have been talking about the dangers of the Enneagram for over 2 years! So many Christians have pushed back on this. Being in the New Age, I never heard of it. I came back to Christ in 2020 and knew when I first heard it, it was an off shoot of Numerology and Astrology and could not believe it was in the church!
Same! We actually ended up leaving a church for numerous reasons, but one of which was the emplacement of leadership and congregants to the enneagram. There’s many reasons why any criticality thinking Christian should want to avoid it. And Why any Christian would want to mess around with a ‘tool’ created by non-Christian’s guided by automatic (demonic) writing is beyond me.
I do not think that people who are severely depressed or suffering from severe anxiety are basing that simply on feelings. And there are lots of believers looking to Jesus for healing, but still have to face the reality of their mental health on a daily basis. Please be careful to not oversimplify some pretty horrible suffering that people face.
The one huge thing is that Christian counselors do not take insurance in some cases so you will be spending a lot of money. I really needed counseling when i was going through a divorce.
I am a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, who is a Christian, and takes insurance. If my clients are Christian and express that they want therapy from a Christian perspective, I absolutely, happily oblige.
You can try going to a regular (secular) mental health or therapy institution and see if there are Christians. I'm in the US Midwest and they are everywhere.
@@84rstarr I'm glad to hear that! I went through providers under my insurance and was out of luck. The self labeled Christian therapist center near me does not accept insurance.
I would rather pay for quality than go to a hospital that accepts insurances and the therapist is overworked. It has been described to me like this. The hospital is like Walmart and private practices are like a boutique.
AA is a good example of what sets Christian counseling and secular counseling apart. AA tells you, you need to rely on a higher power but then says that it can be anything like your cat or whatever. Biblical counseling is God centered. Yes people can benefit from secular counseling and not all Christian counselors are good. Seeing a counselor with similar world views and values is important.
AA and all the other secular counselors also insist that everyone declare that they're addicts and they'll always be addicts and that is a lie from hell. We should never speak that over or lives. If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. Behold, old things pass away, and all things become new. Also, as a man thinketh, so is he. 🙏
@@DavidMccallister65 Amen!!! I'm a Pastoral (Biblical) Counselor and I am not a fan of 12 steps because of the identification as an addict. Keeps them in bondage rather than helping them with freedom available in Yeshua, who came to set the captives free.
Yes, counseling should be renewing our mind to see things from God's perspective to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourself. God designed us to be thinking-feeling-acting beings. Whatever we are feeling stems from what we are thinking and leads to how we act. Our thoughts result from what we truly believe. Any other order is disordered processing ❤️🙏
I received a psychology degree from a very conservative Bible college, and I learned something new today!! I didn’t realize there was a difference between Christian and Biblical counseling. My Alma mater would likely align more with the Biblical counseling side, but I guess I didn’t realize there was a wording difference there.
According to an interview with Dr. Rhenn Cherry, a Biblical Counselor who wrote his PhD dissertation on the Enneagram, approximately 139 doctoral-level mental health professionals, with an average of 26 years experience, participated in a peer reviewed study in 2015 which found the Enneagram placing 2nd to last place on the first round of testing and last on the 2nd round…out of 36 protocols. The Enneagram is not a valid scientific tool pertaining to Personality, even if marketed as such.
I am a biblical counselor certified with ACBC and I am so thankful for this podcast. Scripture really is sufficient to address everything we need as sinners and sufferers in a fallen world!
Speaking of mental illness could you address the issue of John MacArthur coming out against PTSD, OCD,ADHD two weeks ago I'm having a hard time with the PTSD the veterans
I have not heard yet with John MacArthur said but if he is against or doesn't believe in the diagnosis of PTSD or ADHD, he is ignorant. I have a friend who is a Vietnam veteran and work with people who are Vietnam vets and believe me, their PTSD is very real and extremely difficult to overcome. Obviously, Jesus can overcome anythingbut for those vets who had to shoot a child or a woman because they had a bomb strapped to their back, that's a lot to overcome and we should have great compassion and understanding toward them
Allie Beth, Thank you for conducting this interview. I would love to see an interview with Eric Johnson, author of Psychology and Christianity: Five Views, in an episode on the varieties of theoretical frameworks in Christian Counseling.
What about if you have bipolar disorder and have lack of serotonin and dopamine and you need medication. I am a devout Christian. And i Preach for Jesus and preach help through the Lord but i am a spokesperson for mental health as well. Jesus makes me sustain my pain. But he gave me a brain to seek medical help. It’s not easy and not a walk in the park. I loved the episode. But as God created everything he created psychologists as well. If u break ur leg, dont u need an orthopedic??? Its the same but mental disorder is not seen in the naked eye.so devotion and praying and going to mass and reading the bible is amazing healing for my spirit and soul, but we need psychiatric help with medication for our lack of hormones. ❤
I thought about those types of situations, too. I would hope that no Christian counselor would expect someone with such a disorder to just live with it and not get the help of much needed medication.
I am a Christian, and a School Counselor/Licensed Professional Counselor. I'm interested to learn more about these SEL programs he's making claims about.... Social-emotional learning is extremely important for me to teach students as many don't know how to acknowledge and Address they're feelings in an appropriate way. I have NEVER nor have I ever heard another mental health Professional teach that you should never feel sad, mad, anxious, etc. In fact, I make sure to state several times that a variety of emotions is normal and good. It's HOW we manage those emotions that we teach. We also teach students how to challenge negative thoughts. In my experience, it's been "church people" who down play those heavy/uncomfortable feelings because they interpret that as unbelief or doubt in God. I can't speak for what's going on across the country, but I can assure you, in my neck of the woods, we are very much teaching adaptive skills that are absolutely edifying to all.
Maybe there is another way to view it. Maybe Christians who become professional counselors can start from their biblical foundation (what it means to be human, who God is, how he desires us to live, what he always intended for us) and view all the scientific research (neuroscience, EMDR, poly vagal theory, even CBT) as ways that are proving even more how God created us and what he always intended for us. We can make anything God or put anything first. As a professional counselor I am able to be on the mission field serving Christians and non Christians. I pray for my clients and whenever I have an opportunity, share Jesus (the ultimate healer, savior, attachment figure). There is nothing and no one greater!
My daughter has been diagnosed with adhd and was on Adderall. I took her off of it and found her a Christian counselor but not sure how it will turn out. Keep her in your prayers.
Please don't make your daughter's life unnecessarily harder. I have ADHD (dx as an adult) and wish I could have gotten care earlier. Stimulants are first line of treatment for ADHD and if Adderall was effective for your daughter, please don't deprive her of it, just as I hope you wouldn't deprive her of allergy meds if she suffered from allergies. Your daughter has a neuro developmental disorder.
Praying for you!❤🙏 My daughter has adhd and Tourette’s. Her doctors and I have gone the no medication route. She’s doing quite well. I try to limit sugar and excessive fiber while trying to add in protein to her diet. I do homeschool her (her doctors highly suggested that) and I think that’s been a huge help. She’s only 12, but I do let her have coffee sometimes when she’s overstimulated. I’m not opposed to medication if she feels she needs it in the future, but until it becomes a necessity / more beneficial to be on it, I try to avoid medication.
@@donnaross7531 Every child is different, but my daughter is a huge fruits and vegetable lover. She was getting way more than the recommended amount of daily fiber, and in turn, sugar. It caused some stomach issues and I believe brain fog as well. Now, some kids with adhd don’t like any fruits and veggies, but she’s on the opposite end of that spectrum. I’ve tried to limit it and make sure she eats more of the low glycemic, non starchy plants. I’ve also tried to incorporate protein and ways for her to eat eggs that she likes. It really does help! The doctors really think a more ketogenic diet is the best thing for her. She’s not quite on a ketogenic diet, but she’s definitely eating a better balance than she was before.
@@donnaross7531 follow the advice of psychiatrists who specialize in ADHD. Do not take actions now that your daughter will resent you for later. Do not deprive her of access to medication. Look at the stories of adults with ADHD whose parents denied them meds as a child. This could lead to a lifetime of difficulties and possible estrangement from you.
I have never been taught the definition of empathy that is said here. As a hospice nurse I was often unable to do anything about a person’s suffering, but I could at acknowledge that person’s pain and offer words of encouragement and support. That’s what I was taught to understand about empathy. Sometimes I could call on one of our social workers or chaplains to meet with the person. I’ve never seen or thought of empathy as a bad thing that could cause additional suffering and harm.
As someone who has experience in hospice social work, the social workers utilize empathy in practice and in the very same problematic way described here. Your position may allow a more biblical form of empathy but an institutionally acceptable form of activist empathy is more required of other members in your care team.
When it comes to marriage counseling, often the most damaging counseling is from Christians when there is abnse involved. The abnse tends to be spirutualized, blamed on the viktim, and the cure also heaped o to the viktim. I do not recommend any kind of help-seekinh from church sources for marriage issues unless there is extensive training in trauma and abnse so that the perpetrator is properly identified and held accountable.
I hear the argument against SEL. Many secular philosophies are woven into many SEL ideas in the school system today. On the other hand, I do feel like SEL was generalized a bit in this interview..a positive example of SEL is Mr. Rogers. He gave many insightful simple lessons for generations of kids. I would consider these "social-emotional" because it helped kids feel seen and learn more friendship, controlling anger, etc. There's also a huge case for having more Christians in education to create healthy social-emotional learning. But maybe SEL as a label has too much baggage! We should come up with a different one. Great interview and challenging ideas :)
I’m confused. I didn’t hear a clear distinction. If someone has Bipolar disorder or schizophrenia are you saying they shouldn’t go to a “secular” psychiatrist? Just pray it away with a biblical counselor?
It's not just about praying things " away". Learning to live by the truths and principles that Jesus Christ teaches, applying them to our lives and learning who He says we are.. following what is important and being willing to eliminate all things that are not good for us in our lives, minds, actions and daily walk in life.. along with prayer so that we may be strengthened in and by these truths and gaining ability to rise above all the things we are plagued with in life... that is a more accurate way to see God's role in mental health.
I think it's unfair to characterize what we can know from psychology as man-made wisdom. All truth belongs to God, and he designed us a certain way. Truth gleaned from psychology and other "secular" disciplines (they do not have to be secular; they can and should be subservient to theology) should conform to truths from Scripture and produce flourishing for humans because living in harmony with God's created order produces flourishing. The Old Testament sage looks at the world around him for wisdom as well as to God's law. Proverbs 24:30-34 shows that we can learn from the world around us, and that it is biblical. Christian counseling can be godly and Scriptural, but. it can also be too worldly. Biblical counseling can be encouraging and helpful, but it can easily devolve into "you aren't praying enough" or the like. Both have pros and cons, and both can be biblical ways of seeking help.
re: characterizing what we can know from psychology as man-made wisdom- Echoes the thoughts I had while listening. Using whatever means we encounter in order to understand what we CAN, and then trust the sovereignty of God and Holy Spirit to help us discern the voice of truth that is going to specifically help us in our walk with the Lord.
They spent so much time on tangential things that you leave without knowing much more about biblical counseling and what that entails for a typical meeting. 4:54 - 9:22 This might be the most helpful section said on this, alongside using Jesus as a standard for human normality later. But even this isn’t to say much more than “we’re Christian and believe God provides for us through the church”, which tells us little about biblical counseling discipleship, and may even require specific interpretations of scripture to support his case. Yes the DSM is heavily based on symptoms (Diagnostic), yes Freud has had a massive influence on psychology, and yes there are secular/leftist influences on mental health. Thats all good to note, but whats the alternative again? Christian counseling sounds like a better alternative if they dont throw the baby out with the bath water ie, recognizing beneficial practices and classifications while disregarding the other stuff that gets lumped in.
Labeling is what is going on here. Christian counselors vs. Biblical counselors. Stop! I sought out a Christian counselor for severe depression, an abusive childhood, date rape, child sexual abuse, dissociative disorder, etc. I was a mess. My therapist was a Christian. She guided me, but also told me that true healing comes from God. If it had not been for her therapeutic skills, I would still be a mess. Glad that i didn’t come to either of you for help. The problem is not the labels. The problem is that some “Christian “ therapists do not follow biblical truth. That is what you should be addressing. You are doing a disservice to those who desperately need a skill clinician, not just a Bible teacher.
We left sandals church in Southern California because of the enneagram and they were going left. They were drenched in it . Even in their who were are on line.
I went to a "Christian" counselor and during one session she had me do a mental exercise, and at the end of the session she told me she used HYPNOSIS on me! I was furious. I did not consent to that. Our relationship ended shortly thereafter.
Reading the article “Why Biblical Counseling is unbiblical” by Dr John Coe completely changed my mind about biblical counseling. If anyone if able to read it, I highly recommend
I've needed counseling for many years but haven't for this very reason. Years ago, I received "Christian" counseling, and it was pathetic, not at all helpful. I need help navigating the rejection of my children, who have also turned my grandchildren against me. I just went to the ACBC website to search for a counselor. There are 6 within 25 miles of me, 5 of them all in one town in a huge metropolitan area. That is kinda strange?
I am so sorry for your loss. My friend is experiencing the same thing. Her 3 children turned against her several years ago, and also don't allow her to see her grandchildren. She is heart broken.
@@Switzer1234 Thank you! Yes, that is exactly what I need help with, living day to day for so many years with a shattered heart. I've prayed my heart out for many years, but I want to know if there is anything I can do that might open their eyes so they can truly see me for who I am.
@@gramajan4It’s valid to want to see your children and grandchildren, but you cannot make people see you the way you want to be seen. There’s what you do and what you say. There’s also what you’ve done in the past. Clearly they have a problem with it. So the question is have you invalidated their concerns? Have you deflected, minimized or avoided dealing with their concerns? Are you manipulating in order to get what you need? If you want a relationship, you have to change the variables on your end.
@@journeyoffaith02 Sometimes when we attempt to speak words of wisdom into another's life, someone we know nothing about, whose situation we know nothing about, the words are less than helpful. You might want to keep that in mind, dear one.
Dr. Johnson, are you suggesting that, for the Christian, to "dabble" in ANY personality assessment or inventory is to errantly rely on such a test for "answers" (or even potentially so), rather than retaining a biblical worldview (and self-view)...???
Oh, this is a hard topic. Have you ever struggled with chronic depression? Recently MacArthur claimed that there is no such a thing as PTSD, and that they don't do much counceling for depression, bc they are more involved in studying the Word of God. I found that to be an extremly arrogant point of view. He also claimed that if people would focus less on their problems, and put their faith in God more, their depression would be solved. (The WOF teachers promise that about healing and wealth, he seemed to promise results considering mental health. If only you had enough faith.) I have been thinking a lot about the relationship between the Word of God and it's wisdom and psycholgy over the years. My question is: If there is all to know about human nature in the Bible and we don't need to train ourselves in psyhology, would you recommend not going to medical school, bc there is all to know about human nature in the Bible? This question comes from a place of honesty and searching for a Biblical way of looking at human suffering. God gives wisdom to non believers as well. That is called common grace. If what psycology concludes about humans contradict how the Bible sees us, we should avoid that of course. But do we avoid it all together? Do we just not go to school because we only need wisdom from the Bible? Do we only pray with a Christian councelor for healing or do we also go to a Dentist? Do we only ask the Bible about the developement of our children or do we also go to a professional? A Christian Therapist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the creator and healer of our souls can be such a gift. What do you think?
John MacArthur has taken heat even from people in his own camp for stating that “mental illness doesn’t exist…” He is far from the final word on this subject and I think you’ll find that he’s in the minority among Christian scholars.
I love John MacArthur, but I believe he is very wrong in this area. I have a child with Tourette’s and adhd. She had a sharp personality change at 18 months old when symptoms of these diagnoses presented. I knew there was something going on, but many well meaning Christians just assumed it was bad, lazy parenting. I have 3 other children, so if I was that bad, you’d think they’d have the same issues.😄 I once heard MacArthur say he’s not depressed because he has no reason to be depressed. That right there shows he really hasn’t listened to what depression is. That’s like saying he doesn’t have Alzheimer’s because he has no reason to forget things! There’s often no external reason for a person to be depressed. That’s how they know something is wrong. Finding out what’s wrong and how to deal with it can be a long, difficult process.
My thoughts exactly. There are real problems with sin, but there are also real problems with the brain. And they require different types of help. I think we need to encourage people to come to Jesus AND seek the type of help appropriate fod them, rather than denying mental illness is actually a physical problem.
When I had just started in my old job, we had some (online) meeting, where we had to fill the enneagram. I didnt know much about it but somehow it didnt feel good. After we had to tell what our "personality" was, my boss (with whom I had never met in person, just talked few times in the phone), said that she thinks that my personality is not that, but more of one other "personality" of enneagram. That felt soooo strange! How come she said that? After all, she didnt know me! After all, I didnt stay in that job for long, not because of the enneagram but other problems.
I once had a job that made me take a personality test (not enneagram), and it was incredibly frustrating. They used the results against me and got angry every time my actions didn’t fit into the personality type they decided I had.
I believe Dr. Johnson is speaking in generalities to a degree that is not completely accurate. I also disagree with his characterization of “unconditional positive regard”. It does NOT mean to blindly affirm and agree with one’s choices, in fact I would argue that it is very different from that. At least for me, it means that I see that value in each person while simultaneously addressing unhealthy (often sinful) behaviors and thoughts. It also means that I recognize my own limitations and don’t set myself up as an expert or “better than”.
eah, I understand this about humanistic psych/rogers. It is just about not expressing judgment and showing support and empathy. But perhaps he was trying to contrast. Not sure. He doesn’t do a deep dive into different modalities.
Problem is thatmany can’t tell it doesn’t mean to affirm people’s choices, I worked with this framework and whilst I use it to uphold each person having a view, I saw colleagues and clients take that blind positivity and it trashed them, including one giving me threats and the original team leader not confront the threatener or his behaviour. 🤷🏽♂️
hmm... I can definitely get behind the idea that the way we have come to a lot of the understanding of the enneagram as occult. For that reason alone, I have tried to distance myself from some of the people who use it. HOWEVER. Before I quit studying it, I came to a better understanding of me and my husband's natural bent as we both try to submit to correction. It has become a natural wiring in my brain for describing people's perspectives more usefully (reliably and with a high degree of validity). My tendency as an ennea 1 is to be closed off to other people's perspectives, which I realized was part of my natural tendencies. If I take that as license to refuse to sacrifice my selfishness, it becomes just another excuse to do what I want in life. BUT, I use it to identify the mechanics of where I can specifically offer right sacrifices before the Lord, ie- differentiating the specific sin in my heart and of those close to me. Now that I got that off my chest I am going to go against my gut and read these comments. But only for like 4 minutes cause I really have to get back to cleaning.
My husband and I looked in to the background of enneagram when staff members at our old church started talking about it and trying to guess our “numbers” - took about 5 minutes of looking into it for us to be like “oh hell no” 🚩 But they wouldn’t listen when we informed them of the history. Go figure.
I hope you can provide a counter-view to this man such as Debra Fileta. She is a Christian counselor and her faith is woven throughout her teaching. God is in psychology, and He can use counseling to heal.
I typically watch on my laptop that isn't signed into my account, so I do not get commercials. Listening in on my phone and am surprised that there's commercials as well as Good Rancher and other sponsor commercials..........
Until the church steps up and is there, really there for their people then therapy is all that keeps people together. The reason that people go to the therapy is because the church is to busy getting members and money to be bother with things like the congregation.
Agreed. I think it’s in a way hypocritical for Christian Counselors to tell other Christians that they need Biblical counseling while you would still have to pay for it just like you would have to pay for secular therapy. I’m not saying that it can’t help others, but I do find it hypocritical. Why does Biblical counseling even need to be a profession anyway? Shouldn’t Christians get that from their pastors?
In my opinion pastors are supposed to be there at all times in spite of any inconveniences or challenges problems or circumstances that may arise. Taking all the time in the world 🌎 to pray help pay for someone’s expenses (if needed) and most importantly not stopping until no soul perishes. Forgive me if I’m not being clear or oversimplifying
Hi Allie, I had a baby at 42 years old on December 1st to a beautiful baby boy. It was a bit of a traumatic birth:, postpartum preclamp, icu, severe sleep deprivation. I am still dealong with high bp and unbalanced hormones. It is taking a long time to recover, still dealing with. My body's been pumping out all sorts of adrenaline and I'm not able to sleep many nights. Strange feelings in my head and chest, tue Dr.'s say its poat partum depression and want ke tontake an ssri which I tried and made things so much worse. I've been praying to the Lord on how to deal with it, still needing some help sleeping through pharmaceuticals for sleep. I'm wishing there was more biblical counseling close to me, butwhat I am experiencing seems so biochemical. I would be interested to hear A biblical perspective on how to handle this.
This is not related to the episode, but I’m always wondering if my future best friend is one of the “73 people (or however many) waiting” while your newest episodes load. 😂
I was studying to be a psychiatrist and once I realized that I couldn't diagnose someone with a disorder in good conscience and that everything is spiritual warfare, I didn't know what to do with my life. All I ever wanted was to counsel people, just not with the world's tools.
I definitely relate! I was studying to be a counselor and just couldn’t reconcile it with my faith anymore. I am glad you saw the light in that area, too!
Here's what I find troubling. As an older woman, I've seen my children's generation (Allie's age) seem to think that everyone needs counseling for every little thing. Then, when they go get counseling, they end up putting up "boundaries" against everyone who disagrees with them. The counselors listen to their emotions, then feed these emotions -- many of them being false. It has injured so many people I know. It has broken up families and injured excellent parents, whose children think they were not good enough to be their parents. EVERY generation is difficult because we live in a sin-cursed world. Yet, we should understand that this is not our home., which gives us endurance and hope. The lack of sound theology being taught in the last 50 years in the church is a huge part of the problem. People don't know theology. The "pastors" they sit under do not know theology. (This is a generalized statement, but one we have suffered through trying to find a solid church. Thankfully, we found solid historic, confessional Reformed churches). If people understood theology, they would be much more content. They would understand Original Sin and stop blaming others. They would understand we have a blessed hope to which we look. This interview, at about 12.00 mentions that men are more prideful when it comes to counseling. I simply do not believe that is true. Theology tells us the human heart is prideful to the core -- all of us inherited it from Original Sin. I have seen TONS of prideful women. PEOPLE are prideful. I can see counseling being necessary in abusive situations, etc -- but for most situations, it takes hard work in a marriage, for instance. I am sad so many run to counseling, spending thousands of hard-earned dollars that could be used for the family in order to deal with emotions they should be mature enough to deal with. Truly, it's a spoiled generation, and I blame my generation for spoiling them. Yes, these are hard words to hear. If the church were stronger, there would be quality elders that could help congregants. If the church had been teaching proper theology, questions would have been answered. Many people simply think the world has been unfair to them, when in fact, they are blessed. They need to go to Africa and sit in a Maasai hut and see how hard life can really be. Yes - these are hard words. But they need to be said. Counseling shouldn't just be automatic. People really can work out issues if they are submitting to God and they understand scripture properly. The problem comes in when they don't really know the God they profess to love. They can only know God in that which He has revealed in scripture. But they really don't read scripture -- they read memes about scripture that are often out of context. They have no hermeneutic except that which is popularized (dispensationalism), which is a horrible hermeneutic. I would encourage people to know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it. Look for a NAPARC church, which will preach accurately so you will understand scripture in context. When you rest in God, and understanding that which He has revealed in scripture, all of those petty problems seem less important.
I think there is some value in knowing your personality type because it is tied to learning styles AND other peoples tendencies and how other people learn so that you can yourself be a better and more adept communicator AND ENCOURAGER.
@donaldjohnson-wn6ps The Holy Spirit only comes into a person who has believed in Jesus Christ as their saviour from the penalty of their sins. Without A close personal relationship with Jesus Christ of the Bible, there will be no Holy Spirit. But a person's status as a sinner without Born Again experience will send a person to hell. That requires sober thoughts.
@@missymurphy9996 Bless your heart. Jesus is the Living Word. The Bible has sufficient counsel for all our challenges. I memorize and meditate and that works wonders.
Come on ...even secular mental helth doctor is similar to physicians who take care of our body.......medical science is gift from God whether the doc is Christian or not If you don't want to keep mental health in track thn don't go to medical physicians too...... Yes there is over diagnosis but it is seen in every field not only psychiatry
At the end of the day, our primary obligation as Christians is to obey an honor the God of the Bible. There is no part of creation that God is not sovereign over or that God does not understand in totality. Therefore, psychology is not “untouchable” and we should be able to dissect it, weigh it, measure it, and find it wanting if necessary. That being said, I fully believe that depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, PTSD, all exist. But I also understand, that they do not have to be life sentences. People can and have healed.
Is this the same Enneagram as in Scientology? I was shocked that my local Dominican Sisters (across the street from our local Catholic college), is offering Enneagram .... sessions? I spent over 20 years in the New Age and I do not trust this at all!
I wouldn’t be surprised that nuns would be involved in such things. I live in a town where we have a large community of Catholic nuns, and they are rabidly left wing. They are much more concerned about the environment and “climate change” than they are about the lives of pre-born babies.
I think that seminary should have some sort of required psychology course(s) AND CRITICAL THINKING REQUIRED COURSE because so many pastors are very ill equipped to handle human abuse toward other people and the physical and the mind are often totally ignored for the pleasantries of simplifying the problem to be "spiritual" when in fact it has to do with the mindset of abusive people and the mindset of people on the receiving end of abuse and that abuse is often complex and layers and affects people physiologically and psychologically.
I’m a counselor who isChristian and have always worked for faith-based practices. I even went to a Christian university to get my counseling education because I know how kookie secular therapists can be. I view what I do as a ministry to this who are hurting and I’m genuinely trying to help people get better. It disturbs me to think Christians might avoid therapy all together simply because of a few bad examples. Before becoming a counselor I was also a pastor and I can tell you pastors don’t get nearly enough counseling training and can do more harm than good sometimes. So, please, if you’re hurting and struggling with a major problem, seek out a counselor who has a good reputation and track record and adheres to ethical practices and Christian principles. We are out there.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that there is even a need for so-called "mental health counseling". Allow me to clarify: Behavioral health sciences training aside, most pastors are NOT otherwise equipped to handle the real behavioral health needs of people, but it isn't for the reasons you (or most) might think; meaning, it is not for lack of formal education or training. In a word, it is due to a lack of relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. Most pastors in churches today lack even a basic understanding of HOLY SPIRIT (and how the spirit realm works), nevermind the fact that they are not even walking in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. If "JESUS is the ultimate healer", then that's all that needs to be said and there is no other "healer" but HIM (and HOLY SPIRIT; GOD in the Trinity). I believe it is clear that ALL behavioral health issues are demonic in origin and, therefore, must be met head-on in the spirit realm (by and with HOLY SPIRIT), not in a clinical setting or with a "trained mental health counselor". We might agree that the Bible alone is not enough, as the Bible merely educates us as to the reality of the demonic existence in the spirit realm, but the Bible alone CANNOT equip any believer to address any of those realities in the spirit realm. Believers in CHRIST need to be in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT in order to be successful doing that. (It's the difference between knowing that some can benchpress 400lbs versus allowing GOD to strengthen our muscles over time to make us stronger, such that we become capable of bench-pressing 400lbs in HIM, by and through HIS power).
I do not deny that many (specifically) mental health issues have a cerebro-chemical reality, but that does NOT mean that the underlying "condition" is not demonic in origin. I will prove my point to you in the following: Take Tourette Syndrome, for example. Why does this "syndrome" (that is defined in the DSM) result in such demonic and foul language? Why doesn't it result in the sufferer incessantly uttering the word "watermelon" or any other pedestrian and arbitrary word(s)? Why is it that so many so-called "mental health conditions" result in attempts at SUlClDE and ideation thereof? Again, why don't they merely result in the sufferer uncontrollably eating apples instead of attempting SUlClDE? Why is it that the outcome (or attempted outcome) of so many "clinical mental disorders" is death and destruction that truly robs the sufferer of healthy living? Why does that sound so familiar? "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:10) In short, the evil one is the cause of ALL mental illness and behavioral issues, and JESUS (and the HOLY SPIRIT) is the only true cure!
The pastor of our church recently did a series on mental health, and he classified some mental health issues as "spritual", others as "physical", and some as "medical" (or "clinical"), suggesting that the latter category requires intervention from "mental health experts". This is such a cop-out! If JESUS is the "ultimate healer", then why are we looking to the culture to provide remedies? On one Sunday during the series, he invited a married couple to speak from out-of-state. They were both "licensed mental health counselors" with the wife having a masters degree and the husband having some sort of doctoral degree. They own their own counseling center and see patients regularly (and have been doing so for 30yrs). They both claimed to be Christians. There were three things that struck me most about their talk:
1) The wife shared some biblical passages at the beginning, glossing over them so quickly that I literally could not turn to each passage of scripture before she had moved on to the next (and I know my way around the Bible!).
2) After plastering about eight Bible verses on-screen and quickly rattling them off, the wife covering all of them in a span of about 5min, the husband then puts on-screen some excerpts from the DSM and spends a lengthy amount of time covering its claims. (I cannot be sure how long it was, but it was easily 15min; a far cry longer than they had spent sharing from the Bible.) BTW: For those of you who don't know, the DSM is a demonically-inspired book that has been changed over time, as subsequent editions have been "updated". The current version, DSM-5-TR, no longer regards homosexuality as a mental condition, and the APA has affirmed homosexuality as a "normal" behavior not requiring therapy. What business has anyone to recite from this demonic book in the affirmative during a church service?
3) The husband rattled off some general mental health statistics in the beginning of their talk, and he made an audacious statement after doing so, saying, "I don't need the HOLY SPIRIT to tell me [BLANK, regarding the statistics because he was supremely confident of the data in his field]." That was all I needed to hear right there. I finally closed my Bible in disgust, seeing as how it was not going to be needed. In hindsight, I wish I had told my wife and daughter that we are leaving and got up and walked out.
AMEN!!!
Clinical depression is real. Therapy can help. Medication can help. Doesn’t always help- sometimes they hurt. But they certainly can help. Using modern day science isn’t always bad. He is making it sound like depression is just a bad feeling or low self esteem. Yeah it’s more than that. Dr. Johnson appears very ignorant on true clinical disorders. Biblical counseling I believe would be beneficial for pre/marriage counseling, spiritual warfare, getting out of a rut, etc. Sometimes we need more help. I am certain God has used my clinical depression (controlled by medication secondary to His Word and Himself) to draw me closer to Himself. I’m so thankful for that.
I always had the teams I managed complete the Myers-Briggs and was proud of the use of the tool to identify our strengths. About a year ago, the Holy Spirit spoke to me about identifying with secular personality designations and reminded me that "we are crucified with Christ" and our identify is in Him. I got rid of all the personality assessment stuff.
@jane6732 whoa 😮 praise God, a little over year now, while I was speaking with someone about being an introvert and my proclivities and tendencies- I heard the Holy Spirit say Stop, no longer will you identify with such things. Then with understanding that only He could show in the Word, it was about are identity in Christ and putting away vein and empty philosophies. I learned about being an introvert when I was in corporate America and taking the Myers Briggs assessment. Now I fully realize that with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I am sufficient in Christ’s sufficiency!
I used to like that test, until I heard about this spiritual stuff behind it - I strongly recognised myself from the type description it gave me, and it made me feel more valid being a more, I guess dynamic and assertive person in a country of more chill and docile people. I felt like I was a "thing" and not just "that person". Not that anyone looks down on me, but I often stand out. I also think part of the charm of the test is that it takes these small distinct details about us and combines them into an easily readable and understandable "profile". It gives you that "Aha!" experience, even though technically you knew all of the stuff already, now it's just worded neatly and compactly instead of a hundred separate bullet points inside of our heads.
Not just that. It's a self survey.
What does one say when going for interviews where they want to do a personality test like this.
I think the only time sometimes I get frustrated with these conversations is we only touch on feeling sad and calling it depression or feeling worried and calling it anxiety. As someone with a loved one with severe schizophrenia, I’d like to hear more biblical discussion on the handling of really difficult mental illness. (I’m not taking away from those that struggle with depression or anxiety.)
THIS! I have a loved one as well with schizophrenia and it is often overlooked in the church unfortunately.
Complicated things like schizophrenia might be a physical problem in the brain. When there is a physical issue present Bible won’t help unless God miraculously heals someone. Chris Palmer is a good resource on mental issues from a metabolic perspective. Sometimes biblical counseling and secular counseling might approach a certain issue through a psychological(soul) aspect, but the issue might be on a physical level.
I hear you, sis... youre making an important point that needs to be addressed, as i have had my own experiences... will be praying for your family member 🙏🏽
@@akemianderson2030I believe is pure evil
Until the Church returns to fellowship with HOLY SPIRIT, we will not see such "biblical discussions" on how Christians are to handle such serious mental conditions (which are 100% demonic, BTW). Sadly, we are a weak Bride today, and most pastors have no relationship with HOLY SPIRIT, not to mention the same for "normal" Christians (who are NOT pastors). The reason the Church isn't equipped to handle it (and other demonic manifestations) is because we are a weak Bride who is NOT walking in the SPIRIT of GOD!
My husband and I saw a pre-marital Christian counselor before we got married. It literally saved our relationship. I thank God for the talented and compassionate brothers and sisters in Christ who see the worst of humanity [every day] and still give God the glory.
Counselors almost destroyed our marriage. Once we dropped them as a source we immediately started growing together.
Was listening to the introduction and automatically thought about the differences between Biblical and Christian counseling.... Then my old Biblical counseling professor who taught me that pops on the screen! Wonderful professor and my favorite class that had real impact on my daily life. Thank you Dr Johnson!
Love Dale!
I had Dale at Southwestern! I was thrilled to see him on my RUclips homepage this morning!
Yes! He’s my former seminary professor for Biblical counseling too! It enjoyed his class.
I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and I am a Christian. I went to seminary to get my degree (Masters in Christian Counseling) because I believe Jesus is the ultimate healer and I wanted a Biblical perspective but there are different options. I pursued licensure, which is regulated by a board and we accept insurance, etc. Many pastors I know studied professional counseling but many other pastors I know studied Biblical counseling. There is a difference and I agree many people do not know that difference but there is a need for both! While the Bible is the most important authority in my life, I would not go to my pastor or someone trained in the Bible, for a medical issue- diabetes, broken foot or to deliver my baby, or even a mental health issues. There is a time and place for both types of counseling. Some adjustment or marital distress, Biblical counseling is probably sufficient and I agree that the local church should be the place that hurting people can go, but even my pastor knows his limits. He will meet with people and often refer them to our office because his knowledge is limited.
As a Christian Licensed Professional Counselor I wholeheartedly agree with your comment 💜
As a medical provider I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this. God gives us all knowledge and science is from God. This is like telling someone to go to their pastor to treat their diabetes. A secular counselor for a Christian is a terrible idea. But a LICENSED counselor who is ALSO a CHRISTIAN is the best of both!
I am a patient with severe complex ptsd and was deeply hurt by the church because they had no understanding of how to help someone like me. It's time the church looked at this serious issue that it's neglected for so long. There are so many of us out there , the one isolated not part of the ninety nine. We need the church and we need counseling. I would love it if we could find it it one place.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assertion that there is even a need for so-called "mental health counseling". Allow me to clarify: Behavioral health sciences training aside, most pastors are NOT otherwise equipped to handle the real behavioral health needs of people, but it isn't for the reasons you (or most) might think; meaning, it is not for lack of formal education or training. In a word, it is due to a lack of relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. Most pastors in churches today lack even a basic understanding of HOLY SPIRIT (and how the spirit realm works), nevermind the fact that they are not even walking in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT. If "JESUS is the ultimate healer", then that's all that needs to be said and there is no other "healer" but HIM (and HOLY SPIRIT; GOD in the Trinity). I believe it is clear that ALL behavioral health issues are demonic in origin and, therefore, must be met head-on in the spirit realm (by and with HOLY SPIRIT), not in a clinical setting or with a "trained mental health counselor". We might agree that the Bible alone is not enough, as the Bible merely educates us as to the reality of the demonic existence in the spirit realm, but the Bible alone CANNOT equip any believer to address any of those realities in the spirit realm. Believers in CHRIST need to be in relationship with HOLY SPIRIT in order to be successful doing that. (It's the difference between knowing that some can benchpress 400lbs versus allowing GOD to strengthen our muscles over time to make us stronger, such that we become capable of bench-pressing 400lbs in HIM, by and through HIS power).
I do not deny that many (specifically) mental health issues have a cerebro-chemical reality, but that does NOT mean that the underlying "condition" is not demonic in origin. I will prove my point to you in the following: Take Tourette Syndrome, for example. Why does this "syndrome" (that is defined in the DSM) result in such demonic and foul language? Why doesn't it result in the sufferer incessantly uttering the word "watermelon" or any other pedestrian and arbitrary word(s)? Why is it that so many so-called "mental health conditions" result in attempts at SUlClDE and ideation thereof? Again, why don't they merely result in the sufferer uncontrollably eating apples instead of attempting SUlClDE? Why is it that the outcome (or attempted outcome) of so many "clinical mental disorders" is death and destruction that truly robs the sufferer of healthy living? Why does that sound so familiar? 🤔 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John 10:10) In short, the evil one is the cause of ALL mental illness and behavioral issues, and JESUS (and the HOLY SPIRIT) is the only true cure!
The pastor of our church recently did a series on mental health, and he classified some mental health issues as "spritual", others as "physical", and some as "medical" (or "clinical"), suggesting that the latter category requires intervention from "mental health experts". This is such a cop-out! If JESUS is the "ultimate healer", then why are we looking to the culture to provide remedies? On one Sunday during the series, he invited a married couple to speak from out-of-state. They were both "licensed mental health counselors" with the wife having a masters degree and the husband having some sort of doctoral degree. They own their own counseling center and see patients regularly (and have been doing so for 30yrs). They both claimed to be Christians. There were three things that struck me most about their talk:
1) The wife shared some biblical passages at the beginning, glossing over them so quickly that I literally could not turn to each passage of scripture before she had moved on to the next (and I know my way around the Bible!).
2) After plastering about eight Bible verses on-screen and quickly rattling them off, the wife covering all of them in a span of about 5min, the husband then puts on-screen some excerpts from the DSM and spends a lengthy amount of time covering its claims. (I cannot be sure how long it was, but it was easily 15min; a far cry longer than they had spent sharing from the Bible.) BTW: For those of you who don't know, the DSM is a demonically-inspired book that has been changed over time, as subsequent editions have been "updated". The current version, DSM-5-TR, no longer regards homosexuality as a mental condition, and the APA has affirmed homosexuality as a "normal" behavior not requiring therapy. What business has anyone to recite from this demonic book in the affirmative during a church service?
3) The husband rattled off some general mental health statistics in the beginning of their talk, and he made an audacious statement after doing so, saying, "I don't need the HOLY SPIRIT to tell me [BLANK, regarding the statistics because he was supremely confident of the data in his field]." That was all I needed to hear right there. I finally closed my Bible in disgust, seeing as how it was not going to be needed. In hindsight, I wish I had told my wife and daughter that we are leaving and got up and walked out.
I think it very much so depends. Matters of mental and emotional anguish or stress is nearly grunted to be bound in some way to the areas of morality, righteousness, and sin.
I think going to your pastor when you’re struggling with chronic depression makes perfect sense as opposed to going to him with a broken foot- If that makes sense.
My husband is a therapist. He is a Christian, but he is not a “Christian therapist”. He uses researched-backed therapies to help people who desperately need help. Things like CBT, and Exposure response therapy shouldn’t be thought of as “secular”. They are just treatments that help people who have mental afflictions in the same way medical doctors use medicine and other treatments to help people with physical afflictions.
My son and I both have OCD. Exposure Response Prevention is the gold standard for OCD treated and has helped us both. It is very sad that many Christians avoid therapy even when they are in desperate need.
💯 agree with this ⬆️ .
My family was in bondage to toxic fundamentalism, and they mocked those who sought help for trauma, victim-blamed, and forbade going to a counselor.
The pastor was a dictator. The IFB church was a cult.
God has been able to use my counselor, who is a Christian, but was trained in the mainstream to help me save my marriage, faith and family.
God can use these things for healing, restoration, and His glory. And secular therapists may not give credit where credit is due…but they use realities from God’s order and the design of the human psyche to help people recover and heal.
It’s cultish to isolate and not allow people to get the help they need.
When I was a Christian I went to some biblical counseling and it was a terrible experience. Now I very much enjoy my certified therapist who is a Christian.
@@talia6442 same type of tom foolery that leads people to not go to doctors because "by his stripes we are healed*
Thank you for having him on your podcast! Finding out about biblical counseling and learning more about it really transformed my life. I'm so thankful to be able to deal with my personal problems through a biblical lens. It's honestly been so encouraging to figure out my sin issues that I struggle with and to be able to meditate on Scriptures and see what God's Word says about specific issues. One thing I don't understand is when people view acknowledging our sins as shaming. It's not shameful. It's encouraging and awesome to be aware of our struggles and then to be able to act based on what God's Word says. It gives so much freedom to acknowledge and be aware of our sinful tendencies.
So true! It's about our hearts' thoughts, desires and emotions. When sin disorders those, the Bible alone has answers! Biblical counseling changed my life! It's simply the Bible applied to one's life.
One thing that wasn't stressed enough and needs to be said is that if you are a Christian, you should belong to a local church, and that should be the first place and the first people you should be going to for help before you start going anywhere else. Sometimes outside help is needed, but God designed the means of your local church to be the primary way that we get wise counsel, discipleship, and healing.
That's how it's supposed to be. But many churches don't have the time, interest, and/or resources for offering that kind of help.
Amen! There’s so much in the Bible that supports being part of a good church. If you don’t have a good church in your area, move! If you don’t respect your pastor, find a church where you can trust and follow the pastor. My parents moved for a church and that included my dad giving up his dream job - they’ve never regretted it. Also, can anyone share a Bible verse that supports going to a therapist?
@@Rosie_C Proverbs 11:14 - Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
@@Rosie_C Galatians 6:2 - Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
@@SeaMichelle1 I hear ya. I guess I am prejudice because I’ve never had a time in my life that I couldn’t get the Biblical counsel I needed from my circle of family and church. I have NEVER gone to my parents or pastor or pastor’s wife for advice or counsel and they told me, “I don’t know and don’t have an answer.” They’ve always been able to share Bible and prayer with me that led me to an answer I had peace and understanding with. It goes back to the thought of the Bible encouraging you to have a home church and shepherd you can follow. Plus, we in America are blessed with freedom to have access to the whole Bible.
You have become one of my favorite podcasts. Thank you for speaking out and having guests on your show that speak out on these topics. It has helped me in my journey as I have stopped taking SSRI's and going down natural routes for my daughter who is on ADHD meds
I’m so very happy to see the stigma of mental health has great changed in just the last 20 years. I had some kind of mental breakdown just over 20 years ago & it was still extremely taboo in the Church & Christian community in general. Brains can malfunction chemically just like any organ can. It took me going to 5 different so called Christian psychologist & psychiatrist to finally find the one who knew how to help me. The story itself is insane.
The psychologist led me to the right psychiatrist both Christian. I’ve had this doctor for over 20 years. I still see him every 6 months or more if needed. I do take medication I’ve had severe anxiety & depression as a child. When I got on the right medication those head to heart light bulbs immediately started popping. I went from “yes I know that” to “knowing it in a whole new way”. The 2 different knows in the Greek. I was a pastors kid & accepted Christ at 10 years old. I never doubted my salvation. I strongly believe I went through that so that I could understand others & help them. Not everyone needs medication, some only a short time. Putting teens on medication is scary. I can’t say if I would have benefited from medication then. I’m definitely thankful for the right medication now.
Dr. Dale! I love the way you mention denying the self and continuing with the verse that it doesn't STOP at the juncture. That it continues with "take up your cross" and "follow Him" (Jesus).
the enneagram has always given me a check in my spirit especially when used in Christian circles. Thanks for addressing this.
There is a difference between being sad or grumbling at the Lord and actual clinical depression, schizophrenia, or serious mental illness. Outside clinical help is sometimes needed, but since the world is unchristian it is often abused and folks are over medicated- kinda like in the whole medical profession in general. It grieves me to see the church be so ignorant about real mental illness.
Super good interview. I have been wondering if such a Biblical counselor still existed in our therapeutic world! Thank you for finding Dr. Johnson and for asking such a great questions.
God bless this channel and everyone involved, great content!
Piss off
I have been counselled by the secular therapists and by a Christian therapist and its night and day. I can’t tell you how many secular therapists I saw, but I saw one Christian counsellor and that was all I needed.
Only seven/eight minutes in and loving it. I think it would be amazing to have a roundtable with Dr. Johnson, Dr. Alison Cook, Dr. Regina Boyd and/or Dr. Greg Bottaro about psychology and faith, what true mental wellness is, and the Christian approach to counseling, ect.
Agreed! I would be very interested in listening in on this roundtable.
Thank you Allie, for shining light!
I’ve been SO blessed by the Association of Certified Biblical Counseling.
♥️
I think Dr Johnson's premise that "Christian therapy" being a practice of trying to mash together the wisdom of God and the wisdom of man is overly simplistic and misrepresents Christians who practice therapy (that is, licensed therapists and psychiatrists etc. who are Christians). As others in the comebts here have pointed out, would we call the study of neuro-surgery "the wisdom of man" and therefore avoid seeking treatment from a neurologist for migraines or seizures? God has given us an orderly world and minds to understand the patterns He has laid in it. Using that knowledge in conjunction with a solid grasp on biblical knowledge and truth is not trying to meld the wisdom of man and the wisdom of God.
I completely agree. Whether or not Dr. Johnson realizes it, his argument against Christian counseling is a total straw man. My current counselor is a devout Christian and keeps the gospel at the center of all our discussions. At the same time, he is a LPC and has extensively studied various mental health disorders and their contributing factors. He understands that most of our destructive ways of thinking and behaving have both spiritual and clinical components and that oftentimes those two things go hand in hand. The reason we suffer is ultimately because of sin, be it our own sin or sin committed against us.
Basically every Christian will agree that we physically suffer and die because of the fall, and I think think it's perfectly reasonable to apply the same principle to mental health. While unbelievers don't properly understand sin and aren't operating within a Christian framework, because of common grace they can recognize on some level that humans are broken, and they can still make valid observations about the clinical factors that affect a person's mental wellbeing. Of course, without the spiritual component, I would say that secular counseling is lacking at best and in some cases even counterproductive, but that doesn't mean that we should completely discard everything they have to say. For instance, an unbeliever can accurately observe that childhood physical, sexual, and emotional abuse has a negative impact on a person that can last well into adulthood. They can also recognize that factors in the present, such as lack of exercise, poor diet, and hormonal disorders can have an adverse effect on a person's physical and mental wellbeing. I think it is wise and necesary for Christian counselors to incorporate this knowledge into their practice while simultaneously addressing issues of sin and unbelief. To exclusively focus on one or the other is simply irresponsible.
Agreed. Psychology is a science. Just like any science it is the study or observation of things to learn what is true. Studying how molecules work discovers the laws of physics and energy that God established in creation. Psychology simply does the same thing with human behavior and thought. While I agree that many are secularists and that the field has too often pathologized normal human experiences, this does not discount the scientific discoveries that can be used to help us come closer to who we were created to be. As a psychologist and a theologian, I consistently find that neurobiological research reveals biblical truths. The division people like Dr. Johnson create between mental wellness and spiritual wellness is unhelpful. There are many of us who base our therapeutic practices in neuroscience and scriptural truth. It doesn't need to be either/or.
There are definite problems with the mental health field, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
These are two very different things. Seizures and migraines don’t have much of anything to do with counseling.
Great topic, great guest, great interview, great questions, answers, and conversation. Great show, Allie!
Tbh, I’ve never actually fully listened to an episode without skipping through until this episode. This is such a good episode! I loved his take on the enneagram and how he mentioned Jake divisive it can bring. I got biblical counseling in 2020 and it was one of the best things I’ve ever done in my life. Restored and made my marriage the strongest it’s ever been. Saving and sharing this episode!
Love this! Biblical counseling healed me of my anxiety, depression, and bitterness. Now I have a degree in it and am working on my ACBC certification.
Thanks!
So frustrated… I am a Christian. I am a therapist. I have been told by some that I cannot adequately counsel Christians unless I have the “Biblical Counselor” certification. I believe in a Biblical worldview and in the Scriptures. I also believe that the Bible does not explain the procedure for heart surgery and would not go to a surgeon who only used the Bible for instruction in that area. I’m also a bit confused by those who don’t believe that counselors should be paid for their expertise and training. Pastors and church staff are paid, why are counselors in a different category?
God provided for us to learn and educate ourselves, what matters is the intent and use of tools or teachings. This black and white, extremist preaching that excludes things that can help people because it wasn't spelled out in the holy book is just driving moderate people away from religion and making people uncomfortable discussing things and sharing ideas...it's unnecessarily narrow minded and limiting and it's a shame.
People use this example often and the difference here is that the heart surgery is a physical problem. Therapists and biblical counselors deal with the soul and the argument biblical counselors will use is that the bible deals with the soul issues. When looking deeper, psychology is a philosophy and not a science, which is why it's not as simple as saying that we go to the doctors for our physical problems. Biblical counselors encourage people to get a physical checkup to make sure they're not dealing with a particular problem due to a physiological problem.
Totally agree @shelleymeyers3740!
Biblical counselors deal with the soul, yes but many mental health issues are not about soul care but involve physiological issues and the brain. Think neuroscience.
Modern psychology is based on feelings (affected mind), and the focus is not the soul.
Thank you for your discussing on the Enneagram. We have had heartbreaking estrangement in our family by a member who was very into the Enneagram. This family member has decided that it is better to just cancel relationships rather than try to approach reconciliation with biblical solutions. I never made this connection before your podcast. Thank you!!
I am both a Christian and at the end of my training to become an MFT. I chose the path of MFT because it made sense to me, and I feel it allows me to better serve others as a Christian. I do not have to leave my beliefs out of my practice but have been trained to see how my beliefs inform my practice. While I agree with some of the information provided in this interview, I continually hear testimony of clients who are harmed by Biblical counseling. The pendulum of harm can swing into both secular and Biblical perspectives of counseling or therapy. There are many avenues of counseling or therapy and each approach works differently and has different purposes. The explanation of the differences is simplified by this individual. Do your homework and decide what is the best fit for you as an individual. If you think something is wrong with what you are being told by a counselor or therapist, speak up. We are here to serve others not have others agree with our beliefs.
I'm an atheist who sees a board certified therapist who is a Christian. Highly recommend. Please give it a shot if Biblical counseling doesn't work for you. There is a lot to be said for understanding the human psyche.
I'm confused.
So your therapist is a traditional therapist, who is a Christian; and does or doesn't incorporate biblical principles into his/her counseling?
Do you or do you not benefit from Christian principles?
If you benefit from biblical counseling, wouldn't everyone then, since you're not a believer?
@@DD_LetTheDogsOut she is a Christian who is licensed with the traditional "secular" method. We don't discuss the Bible or Christianity except in cases of religious trauma. She incorporates Christianity into her therapy with fellow Christians.
I guess it depends on what you consider biblical principles. There are plenty of things I live by that are in the Bible but if I'm taking the good and leaving what I see as bad I would say I'm not living my life by biblical principles.
No I would not say everyone would benefit from biblical counseling. I'm saying everyone would benefit from people trained in understanding and navigating the psyche in ways the Bible doesn't touch and you can get that with a Christian worldview.
@@DD_LetTheDogsOut I tried some biblical counseling when I was a believer and it didn't help at all. Maybe I wasn't a True Believer™ but I sure believed and did my best to seek God.
@@jbeiler55 Ok, thank you for explaining.
@jbeiler55 I'm not sure why Christian counseling didn't help- many possible variables.
All I know is for me, when I read the Word, my faith only increases.
I could not and would not want to live or die without the Lord.
I hope you attain that special peace that passes understanding. :)
Allie it'd be great if you had a solid biblically sound Christian Psychologist like Henry Cloud or John Townsend on your show for an integrative perspective
YES, YES, and YES!
Henry Cloud is Christian but he's not a biblical counselor. He does give some sound advice though.
Mark McMinn is a fabulous integrationist
@@paulperez6167that's exactly what he is asking for. A Christian that approaches psychology biblically.
@@paulperez6167for example, what is CBT - it's the biblical mandate to 'renew your thoughts daily'.
@Allie Beth, I LOVE your closing question to selected guests. Excellent way to close out a biblically-based interview.
As a Christian who went to CBT therapy before I was saved, therapists absolutely use some methods that conflict with Christianity. If the therapist is not a Christian themselves would not realize this and could potentially lead a new Christian astray. I am not against therapy but I think us Christians should choose carefully.
CBT is actually one of the few secular practices that is proven to work and works because it is essentially a biblical practice. Holding your thoughts captive and building productive disciplines that are contrary to the bad behaviors (sin).
Yes but in CBT they teach we have no good or bad. That is unbiblical. I think a Christian should see a Christian CBT therapist
@@RageNRedHead that has absolutely nothing to do with CBT. That's whatever personal secular philosophy the therapist had. It's an amoral tool. It's neither good or evil, it's simply functional. It's a way to get rid of some habits and replace them with others.
Really enjoyed this, it's clear that your guest loves the Lord and has received Jesus the Truth into His heart, the truth that the world cannot receive.
I've gone through the IBCD training which is the first part of the biblical counseling certification with our church. We completely agree that the Word of God brings healing through the Holy Spirits help. Where we disagree is that we believe the brain is not just a place we experience our spiritual wellbeing but also an organ that can get sick so medication and other types of therapy can help bring us to a place where we can listen to biblical counsel. It is not helpful to deny diagnoses and ignore brain health as if it doesn't affect how our brain functions.
We also believe in recovery ministries and support groups based on the word of God where ACBC does not think these type of ministries are biblical.
This is the best episode ever!!!! I'm so glad I'm not the only one with this same opinion in regards to "Christian Counseling" as opposed to Biblical Counseling....I have seen so much eek it's way into the life of believers in the name of "Christian Counseling" that have pretty much singlehandedly derailed the faith of those Christians
I wish more people in the church would understand how dangerous the Enneagram is; I was introduced to it in 2014 in the church I attended. Didn't want anything to do with it. Now, a ministry I'm working with isn't convinced that its roots are in the occult. There's a lie that it's roots are in Christianity, which it so clearly isn't. Thank you Allie and Dr. Johnson for bringing this forward.
What if dangerous about it? I'm asking sincerely. It brought a great deal of healing to me. I suppose if one is not a Christian they could use it exclusively. It's just a tool.
Enneagram is rooted in the New Age, occult divination, witchcraft, and Islamic superstition. Enneagram is the new Christian yoga, yet another attempt to take that which is historically and foundational demonic and sanctify it by redefinition and clever semantics. In the words of Isaiah 5:20, “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!”
Research the founders: Oscar Ichazo, Claudio Naranjo, and George Gurdjieff - it’s not “just a tool,” it’s disguised as transcending to this state of full human potential by way of channeling demonic spirits
27:56 - I haven’t heard of the Enneagram before, but from this description, it really reminds me of what I’ve heard of Astrology
That’s exactly what it is. I’ve called it a “Christian’s astrology.” Of course, that’s an oxymoron, but saying it that way is kind of jarring and sparks a conversation with people who think it’s a biblical thing to practice. Unfortunately, there are many churches who use the enneagram in spiritual gift classes and Bible studies.
This is refreshing! The answers are in the Bible. Thank you, Allie!
I do want to say, as a parent of a child with autism, there is another side of coin to the social/emotional skills learning that I believe is needed. I definitely see where you are coming from as it being not good, but I think to throw all of it out would not be helpful to some. My child has had to be taught how to relate to other people by rote due to his autism - so, social and emotional skills. If we failed to do this with him, he would not be able to be a future adult who related to a spouse, friends, his kids, coworkers, and those who he could potentially reach for Christ, etc. However, I have the conviction that that has been my and my husband’s responsibility to shepherd his hear and teach him these skills in a gospel-centered way, not his teachers, and I think that’s what you were getting to the heart of.
Really a thought-provoking segment - thanks for speaking into all of these very relevant topics!
I think that’s the biblical approach
I have been talking about the dangers of the Enneagram for over 2 years! So many Christians have pushed back on this. Being in the New Age, I never heard of it. I came back to Christ in 2020 and knew when I first heard it, it was an off shoot of Numerology and Astrology and could not believe it was in the church!
Same! We actually ended up leaving a church for numerous reasons, but one of which was the emplacement of leadership and congregants to the enneagram.
There’s many reasons why any criticality thinking Christian should want to avoid it.
And Why any Christian would want to mess around with a ‘tool’ created by non-Christian’s guided by automatic (demonic) writing is beyond me.
I do not think that people who are severely depressed or suffering from severe anxiety are basing that simply on feelings. And there are lots of believers looking to Jesus for healing, but still have to face the reality of their mental health on a daily basis. Please be careful to not oversimplify some pretty horrible suffering that people face.
The one huge thing is that Christian counselors do not take insurance in some cases so you will be spending a lot of money. I really needed counseling when i was going through a divorce.
I am a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, who is a Christian, and takes insurance. If my clients are Christian and express that they want therapy from a Christian perspective, I absolutely, happily oblige.
You can try going to a regular (secular) mental health or therapy institution and see if there are Christians. I'm in the US Midwest and they are everywhere.
@@84rstarr I'm glad to hear that! I went through providers under my insurance and was out of luck. The self labeled Christian therapist center near me does not accept insurance.
Biblical counseling is typically no charge. It is a ministry. Look up ACBC to find a counselor near you.
I would rather pay for quality than go to a hospital that accepts insurances and the therapist is overworked. It has been described to me like this. The hospital is like Walmart and private practices are like a boutique.
AA is a good example of what sets Christian counseling and secular counseling apart. AA tells you, you need to rely on a higher power but then says that it can be anything like your cat or whatever. Biblical counseling is God centered. Yes people can benefit from secular counseling and not all Christian counselors are good. Seeing a counselor with similar world views and values is important.
This is why I love Celebrate Recovery, it's like AA but is 100% Christ centered.
Never thought of this before, great point! 🩷 higher power 🙏🏼
AA and all the other secular counselors also insist that everyone declare that they're addicts and they'll always be addicts and that is a lie from hell. We should never speak that over or lives. If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. Behold, old things pass away, and all things become new.
Also, as a man thinketh, so is he. 🙏
@@DavidMccallister65 Amen!!! I'm a Pastoral (Biblical) Counselor and I am not a fan of 12 steps because of the identification as an addict. Keeps them in bondage rather than helping them with freedom available in Yeshua, who came to set the captives free.
Yes, counseling should be renewing our mind to see things from God's perspective to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourself. God designed us to be thinking-feeling-acting beings. Whatever we are feeling stems from what we are thinking and leads to how we act. Our thoughts result from what we truly believe. Any other order is disordered processing ❤️🙏
I received a psychology degree from a very conservative Bible college, and I learned something new today!! I didn’t realize there was a difference between Christian and Biblical counseling. My Alma mater would likely align more with the Biblical counseling side, but I guess I didn’t realize there was a wording difference there.
Hi Ashley 😊
According to an interview with Dr. Rhenn Cherry, a Biblical Counselor who wrote his PhD dissertation on the Enneagram, approximately 139 doctoral-level mental health professionals, with an average of 26 years experience, participated in a peer reviewed study in 2015 which found the Enneagram placing 2nd to last place on the first round of testing and last on the 2nd round…out of 36 protocols.
The Enneagram is not a valid scientific tool pertaining to Personality, even if marketed as such.
Thank you so much for this information.
And it is HEAVILY marketed as a valid tool.
Been saying this about the enneagram for years. I additionally want to acknowledge this guys level of expertise.
Wow……hit it out of the ballpark interview: excellent questions with over-the-top answers!
I am a biblical counselor certified with ACBC and I am so thankful for this podcast. Scripture really is sufficient to address everything we need as sinners and sufferers in a fallen world!
Speaking of mental illness could you address the issue of John MacArthur coming out against PTSD, OCD,ADHD two weeks ago I'm having a hard time with the PTSD the veterans
I have not heard yet with John MacArthur said but if he is against or doesn't believe in the diagnosis of PTSD or ADHD, he is ignorant. I have a friend who is a Vietnam veteran and work with people who are Vietnam vets and believe me, their PTSD is very real and extremely difficult to overcome. Obviously, Jesus can overcome anythingbut for those vets who had to shoot a child or a woman because they had a bomb strapped to their back, that's a lot to overcome and we should have great compassion and understanding toward them
Allie Beth,
Thank you for conducting this interview. I would love to see an interview with Eric Johnson, author of Psychology and Christianity: Five Views, in an episode on the varieties of theoretical frameworks in Christian Counseling.
What about if you have bipolar disorder and have lack of serotonin and dopamine and you need medication. I am a devout Christian. And i Preach for Jesus and preach help through the Lord but i am a spokesperson for mental health as well.
Jesus makes me sustain my pain. But he gave me a brain to seek medical help. It’s not easy and not a walk in the park. I loved the episode. But as God created everything he created psychologists as well. If u break ur leg, dont u need an orthopedic??? Its the same but mental disorder is not seen in the naked eye.so devotion and praying and going to mass and reading the bible is amazing healing for my spirit and soul, but we need psychiatric help with medication for our lack of hormones. ❤
I thought about those types of situations, too. I would hope that no Christian counselor would expect someone with such a disorder to just live with it and not get the help of much needed medication.
I might also add that I find it a bit disturbing that no one responded to your comment.
I am a Christian, and a School Counselor/Licensed Professional Counselor. I'm interested to learn more about these SEL programs he's making claims about.... Social-emotional learning is extremely important for me to teach students as many don't know how to acknowledge and Address they're feelings in an appropriate way. I have NEVER nor have I ever heard another mental health Professional teach that you should never feel sad, mad, anxious, etc. In fact, I make sure to state several times that a variety of emotions is normal and good. It's HOW we manage those emotions that we teach. We also teach students how to challenge negative thoughts. In my experience, it's been "church people" who down play those heavy/uncomfortable feelings because they interpret that as unbelief or doubt in God. I can't speak for what's going on across the country, but I can assure you, in my neck of the woods, we are very much teaching adaptive skills that are absolutely edifying to all.
Maybe there is another way to view it. Maybe Christians who become professional counselors can start from their biblical foundation (what it means to be human, who God is, how he desires us to live, what he always intended for us) and view all the scientific research (neuroscience, EMDR, poly vagal theory, even CBT) as ways that are proving even more how God created us and what he always intended for us. We can make anything God or put anything first. As a professional counselor I am able to be on the mission field serving Christians and non Christians. I pray for my clients and whenever I have an opportunity, share Jesus (the ultimate healer, savior, attachment figure). There is nothing and no one greater!
My daughter has been diagnosed with adhd and was on Adderall. I took her off of it and found her a Christian counselor but not sure how it will turn out. Keep her in your prayers.
Please don't make your daughter's life unnecessarily harder. I have ADHD (dx as an adult) and wish I could have gotten care earlier. Stimulants are first line of treatment for ADHD and if Adderall was effective for your daughter, please don't deprive her of it, just as I hope you wouldn't deprive her of allergy meds if she suffered from allergies. Your daughter has a neuro developmental disorder.
Praying for you!❤🙏 My daughter has adhd and Tourette’s. Her doctors and I have gone the no medication route. She’s doing quite well. I try to limit sugar and excessive fiber while trying to add in protein to her diet. I do homeschool her (her doctors highly suggested that) and I think that’s been a huge help. She’s only 12, but I do let her have coffee sometimes when she’s overstimulated. I’m not opposed to medication if she feels she needs it in the future, but until it becomes a necessity / more beneficial to be on it, I try to avoid medication.
@@KiKi-tf8rv thank you. That helps. Are you saying to not give too much fiber or do? My daughter is 14.
@@donnaross7531 Every child is different, but my daughter is a huge fruits and vegetable lover. She was getting way more than the recommended amount of daily fiber, and in turn, sugar. It caused some stomach issues and I believe brain fog as well. Now, some kids with adhd don’t like any fruits and veggies, but she’s on the opposite end of that spectrum. I’ve tried to limit it and make sure she eats more of the low glycemic, non starchy plants. I’ve also tried to incorporate protein and ways for her to eat eggs that she likes. It really does help! The doctors really think a more ketogenic diet is the best thing for her. She’s not quite on a ketogenic diet, but she’s definitely eating a better balance than she was before.
@@donnaross7531 follow the advice of psychiatrists who specialize in ADHD. Do not take actions now that your daughter will resent you for later. Do not deprive her of access to medication. Look at the stories of adults with ADHD whose parents denied them meds as a child. This could lead to a lifetime of difficulties and possible estrangement from you.
How can you be a Christian therapist? Is education will make you a secular therapist? Is there a Christian school for this profession?
The Association of Biblical Counseling can walk you through how to learn and grow into this particular path of Biblical Counseling. ♥️
I have never been taught the definition of empathy that is said here. As a hospice nurse I was often unable to do anything about a person’s suffering, but I could at acknowledge that person’s pain and offer words of encouragement and support. That’s what I was taught to understand about empathy. Sometimes I could call on one of our social workers or chaplains to meet with the person. I’ve never seen or thought of empathy as a bad thing that could cause additional suffering and harm.
As someone who has experience in hospice social work, the social workers utilize empathy in practice and in the very same problematic way described here. Your position may allow a more biblical form of empathy but an institutionally acceptable form of activist empathy is more required of other members in your care team.
When it comes to marriage counseling, often the most damaging counseling is from Christians when there is abnse involved. The abnse tends to be spirutualized, blamed on the viktim, and the cure also heaped o to the viktim. I do not recommend any kind of help-seekinh from church sources for marriage issues unless there is extensive training in trauma and abnse so that the perpetrator is properly identified and held accountable.
Huh. Is this your personal experience or a statistic? It has not been my experience.
I hear the argument against SEL. Many secular philosophies are woven into many SEL ideas in the school system today. On the other hand, I do feel like SEL was generalized a bit in this interview..a positive example of SEL is Mr. Rogers. He gave many insightful simple lessons for generations of kids. I would consider these "social-emotional" because it helped kids feel seen and learn more friendship, controlling anger, etc. There's also a huge case for having more Christians in education to create healthy social-emotional learning. But maybe SEL as a label has too much baggage! We should come up with a different one.
Great interview and challenging ideas :)
I appreciate the perspective on the enneagram. Thank you.
I’m confused. I didn’t hear a clear distinction. If someone has Bipolar disorder or schizophrenia are you saying they shouldn’t go to a “secular” psychiatrist? Just pray it away with a biblical counselor?
It's not just about praying things " away". Learning to live by the truths and principles that Jesus Christ teaches, applying them to our lives and learning who He says we are.. following what is important and being willing to eliminate all things that are not good for us in our lives, minds, actions and daily walk in life.. along with prayer so that we may be strengthened in and by these truths and gaining ability to rise above all the things we are plagued with in life... that is a more accurate way to see God's role in mental health.
Also, to take every thought captive to the Word of God.
I think it's unfair to characterize what we can know from psychology as man-made wisdom. All truth belongs to God, and he designed us a certain way. Truth gleaned from psychology and other "secular" disciplines (they do not have to be secular; they can and should be subservient to theology) should conform to truths from Scripture and produce flourishing for humans because living in harmony with God's created order produces flourishing. The Old Testament sage looks at the world around him for wisdom as well as to God's law. Proverbs 24:30-34 shows that we can learn from the world around us, and that it is biblical. Christian counseling can be godly and Scriptural, but. it can also be too worldly. Biblical counseling can be encouraging and helpful, but it can easily devolve into "you aren't praying enough" or the like. Both have pros and cons, and both can be biblical ways of seeking help.
re: characterizing what we can know from psychology as man-made wisdom- Echoes the thoughts I had while listening. Using whatever means we encounter in order to understand what we CAN, and then trust the sovereignty of God and Holy Spirit to help us discern the voice of truth that is going to specifically help us in our walk with the Lord.
Agreed! The wisdom in psychology comes from common grace
They spent so much time on tangential things that you leave without knowing much more about biblical counseling and what that entails for a typical meeting.
4:54 - 9:22 This might be the most helpful section said on this, alongside using Jesus as a standard for human normality later. But even this isn’t to say much more than “we’re Christian and believe God provides for us through the church”, which tells us little about biblical counseling discipleship, and may even require specific interpretations of scripture to support his case.
Yes the DSM is heavily based on symptoms (Diagnostic), yes Freud has had a massive influence on psychology, and yes there are secular/leftist influences on mental health. Thats all good to note, but whats the alternative again? Christian counseling sounds like a better alternative if they dont throw the baby out with the bath water ie, recognizing beneficial practices and classifications while disregarding the other stuff that gets lumped in.
Labeling is what is going on here. Christian counselors vs. Biblical counselors. Stop! I sought out a Christian counselor for severe depression, an abusive childhood, date rape, child sexual abuse, dissociative disorder, etc. I was a mess. My therapist was a Christian. She guided me, but also told me that true healing comes from God. If it had not been for her therapeutic skills, I would still be a mess. Glad that i didn’t come to either of you for help. The problem is not the labels. The problem is that some “Christian “ therapists do not follow biblical truth. That is what you should be addressing. You are doing a disservice to those who desperately need a skill clinician, not just a Bible teacher.
We left sandals church in Southern California because of the enneagram and they were going left. They were drenched in it . Even in their who were are on line.
You need to interview Adrian Hickmon, from Capstone Treatment Center in Searcy, AR.
I have a family member that work there and he loves it
Reposting this to all my social media 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
I went to a "Christian" counselor and during one session she had me do a mental exercise, and at the end of the session she told me she used HYPNOSIS on me! I was furious. I did not consent to that. Our relationship ended shortly thereafter.
Reading the article “Why Biblical Counseling is unbiblical” by Dr John Coe completely changed my mind about biblical counseling. If anyone if able to read it, I highly recommend
I've needed counseling for many years but haven't for this very reason. Years ago, I received "Christian" counseling, and it was pathetic, not at all helpful. I need help navigating the rejection of my children, who have also turned my grandchildren against me. I just went to the ACBC website to search for a counselor. There are 6 within 25 miles of me, 5 of them all in one town in a huge metropolitan area. That is kinda strange?
I went a couple times to see one also, and I didn’t find it very helpful either. It shouldn’t even be a separate profession imo.
I am so sorry for your loss.
My friend is experiencing the same thing. Her 3 children turned against her several years ago, and also don't allow her to see her grandchildren. She is heart broken.
@@Switzer1234 Thank you! Yes, that is exactly what I need help with, living day to day for so many years with a shattered heart. I've prayed my heart out for many years, but I want to know if there is anything I can do that might open their eyes so they can truly see me for who I am.
@@gramajan4It’s valid to want to see your children and grandchildren, but you cannot make people see you the way you want to be seen. There’s what you do and what you say. There’s also what you’ve done in the past. Clearly they have a problem with it. So the question is have you invalidated their concerns? Have you deflected, minimized or avoided dealing with their concerns? Are you manipulating in order to get what you need? If you want a relationship, you have to change the variables on your end.
@@journeyoffaith02 Sometimes when we attempt to speak words of wisdom into another's life, someone we know nothing about, whose situation we know nothing about, the words are less than helpful. You might want to keep that in mind, dear one.
This fellow sounds right 👍 on track 😀🎉!
Dr. Johnson, are you suggesting that, for the Christian, to "dabble" in ANY personality assessment or inventory is to errantly rely on such a test for "answers" (or even potentially so), rather than retaining a biblical worldview (and self-view)...???
Oh, this is a hard topic.
Have you ever struggled with chronic depression?
Recently MacArthur claimed that there is no such a thing as PTSD, and that they don't do much counceling for depression, bc they are more involved in studying the Word of God. I found that to be an extremly arrogant point of view. He also claimed that if people would focus less on their problems, and put their faith in God more, their depression would be solved. (The WOF teachers promise that about healing and wealth, he seemed to promise results considering mental health. If only you had enough faith.)
I have been thinking a lot about the relationship between the Word of God and it's wisdom and psycholgy over the years.
My question is: If there is all to know about human nature in the Bible and we don't need to train ourselves in psyhology, would you recommend not going to medical school, bc there is all to know about human nature in the Bible?
This question comes from a place of honesty and searching for a Biblical way of looking at human suffering. God gives wisdom to non believers as well. That is called common grace. If what psycology concludes about humans contradict how the Bible sees us, we should avoid that of course.
But do we avoid it all together?
Do we just not go to school because we only need wisdom from the Bible? Do we only pray with a Christian councelor for healing or do we also go to a Dentist?
Do we only ask the Bible about the developement of our children or do we also go to a professional?
A Christian Therapist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the creator and healer of our souls can be such a gift.
What do you think?
For answers to some of these questions, I’d recommend the book A Theology of Biblical Counseling by Heath Lambert!
John MacArthur has taken heat even from people in his own camp for stating that “mental illness doesn’t exist…” He is far from the final word on this subject and I think you’ll find that he’s in the minority among Christian scholars.
I love John MacArthur, but I believe he is very wrong in this area. I have a child with Tourette’s and adhd. She had a sharp personality change at 18 months old when symptoms of these diagnoses presented. I knew there was something going on, but many well meaning Christians just assumed it was bad, lazy parenting. I have 3 other children, so if I was that bad, you’d think they’d have the same issues.😄
I once heard MacArthur say he’s not depressed because he has no reason to be depressed. That right there shows he really hasn’t listened to what depression is. That’s like saying he doesn’t have Alzheimer’s because he has no reason to forget things! There’s often no external reason for a person to be depressed. That’s how they know something is wrong. Finding out what’s wrong and how to deal with it can be a long, difficult process.
My thoughts exactly. There are real problems with sin, but there are also real problems with the brain. And they require different types of help. I think we need to encourage people to come to Jesus AND seek the type of help appropriate fod them, rather than denying mental illness is actually a physical problem.
11:19 Differences between men and women
When I had just started in my old job, we had some (online) meeting, where we had to fill the enneagram. I didnt know much about it but somehow it didnt feel good. After we had to tell what our "personality" was, my boss (with whom I had never met in person, just talked few times in the phone), said that she thinks that my personality is not that, but more of one other "personality" of enneagram. That felt soooo strange! How come she said that? After all, she didnt know me! After all, I didnt stay in that job for long, not because of the enneagram but other problems.
I once had a job that made me take a personality test (not enneagram), and it was incredibly frustrating. They used the results against me and got angry every time my actions didn’t fit into the personality type they decided I had.
I believe Dr. Johnson is speaking in generalities to a degree that is not completely accurate. I also disagree with his characterization of “unconditional positive regard”. It does NOT mean to blindly affirm and agree with one’s choices, in fact I would argue that it is very different from that. At least for me, it means that I see that value in each person while simultaneously addressing unhealthy (often sinful) behaviors and thoughts. It also means that I recognize my own limitations and don’t set myself up as an expert or “better than”.
eah, I understand this about humanistic psych/rogers. It is just about not expressing judgment and showing support and empathy. But perhaps he was trying to contrast. Not sure. He doesn’t do a deep dive into different modalities.
Problem is thatmany can’t tell it doesn’t mean to affirm people’s choices, I worked with this framework and whilst I use it to uphold each person having a view, I saw colleagues and clients take that blind positivity and it trashed them, including one giving me threats and the original team leader not confront the threatener or his behaviour.
🤷🏽♂️
hmm... I can definitely get behind the idea that the way we have come to a lot of the understanding of the enneagram as occult. For that reason alone, I have tried to distance myself from some of the people who use it. HOWEVER. Before I quit studying it, I came to a better understanding of me and my husband's natural bent as we both try to submit to correction. It has become a natural wiring in my brain for describing people's perspectives more usefully (reliably and with a high degree of validity). My tendency as an ennea 1 is to be closed off to other people's perspectives, which I realized was part of my natural tendencies. If I take that as license to refuse to sacrifice my selfishness, it becomes just another excuse to do what I want in life. BUT, I use it to identify the mechanics of where I can specifically offer right sacrifices before the Lord, ie- differentiating the specific sin in my heart and of those close to me. Now that I got that off my chest I am going to go against my gut and read these comments. But only for like 4 minutes cause I really have to get back to cleaning.
This is so interesting and helpful.
My husband and I looked in to the background of enneagram when staff members at our old church started talking about it and trying to guess our “numbers” - took about 5 minutes of looking into it for us to be like “oh hell no” 🚩 But they wouldn’t listen when we informed them of the history. Go figure.
I hope you can provide a counter-view to this man such as Debra Fileta. She is a Christian counselor and her faith is woven throughout her teaching. God is in psychology, and He can use counseling to heal.
I typically watch on my laptop that isn't signed into my account, so I do not get commercials. Listening in on my phone and am surprised that there's commercials as well as Good Rancher and other sponsor commercials..........
I would like to go to biblical counseling but i dont know where they are. I live in St. Paul MN
Until the church steps up and is there, really there for their people then therapy is all that keeps people together. The reason that people go to the therapy is because the church is to busy getting members and money to be bother with things like the congregation.
Agreed. I think it’s in a way hypocritical for Christian Counselors to tell other Christians that they need Biblical counseling while you would still have to pay for it just like you would have to pay for secular therapy. I’m not saying that it can’t help others, but I do find it hypocritical. Why does Biblical counseling even need to be a profession anyway? Shouldn’t Christians get that from their pastors?
In my opinion pastors are supposed to be there at all times in spite of any inconveniences or challenges problems or circumstances that may arise. Taking all the time in the world 🌎 to pray help pay for someone’s expenses (if needed) and most importantly not stopping until no soul perishes. Forgive me if I’m not being clear or oversimplifying
@@christophermason3275 I totally agree!
The church is TOO (not TO) busy.
TOO: describes an amount.
Examples: The water is too hot. I don't eat too much. She is too busy to go play.
@@christophermason3275WOW! How selfish. These men (and their wives and children) also deserve a life!
Hi Allie, I had a baby at 42 years old on December 1st to a beautiful baby boy. It was a bit of a traumatic birth:, postpartum preclamp, icu, severe sleep deprivation. I am still dealong with high bp and unbalanced hormones. It is taking a long time to recover, still dealing with. My body's been pumping out all sorts of adrenaline and I'm not able to sleep many nights. Strange feelings in my head and chest, tue Dr.'s say its poat partum depression and want ke tontake an ssri which I tried and made things so much worse. I've been praying to the Lord on how to deal with it, still needing some help sleeping through pharmaceuticals for sleep. I'm wishing there was more biblical counseling close to me, butwhat I am experiencing seems so biochemical.
I would be interested to hear
A biblical perspective on how to handle this.
This is so good
This is not related to the episode, but I’m always wondering if my future best friend is one of the “73 people (or however many) waiting” while your newest episodes load. 😂
Hi 👋 😊
I was studying to be a psychiatrist and once I realized that I couldn't diagnose someone with a disorder in good conscience and that everything is spiritual warfare, I didn't know what to do with my life. All I ever wanted was to counsel people, just not with the world's tools.
Hi, I am the friend, it’s me!
I definitely relate! I was studying to be a counselor and just couldn’t reconcile it with my faith anymore. I am glad you saw the light in that area, too!
Hi! I really do think about it every time I’m able to watch right when an episode is being posted. It’s cool to think about!
Here's what I find troubling. As an older woman, I've seen my children's generation (Allie's age) seem to think that everyone needs counseling for every little thing. Then, when they go get counseling, they end up putting up "boundaries" against everyone who disagrees with them. The counselors listen to their emotions, then feed these emotions -- many of them being false. It has injured so many people I know. It has broken up families and injured excellent parents, whose children think they were not good enough to be their parents.
EVERY generation is difficult because we live in a sin-cursed world. Yet, we should understand that this is not our home., which gives us endurance and hope.
The lack of sound theology being taught in the last 50 years in the church is a huge part of the problem. People don't know theology. The "pastors" they sit under do not know theology. (This is a generalized statement, but one we have suffered through trying to find a solid church. Thankfully, we found solid historic, confessional Reformed churches). If people understood theology, they would be much more content. They would understand Original Sin and stop blaming others. They would understand we have a blessed hope to which we look.
This interview, at about 12.00 mentions that men are more prideful when it comes to counseling. I simply do not believe that is true. Theology tells us the human heart is prideful to the core -- all of us inherited it from Original Sin. I have seen TONS of prideful women. PEOPLE are prideful.
I can see counseling being necessary in abusive situations, etc -- but for most situations, it takes hard work in a marriage, for instance. I am sad so many run to counseling, spending thousands of hard-earned dollars that could be used for the family in order to deal with emotions they should be mature enough to deal with. Truly, it's a spoiled generation, and I blame my generation for spoiling them.
Yes, these are hard words to hear. If the church were stronger, there would be quality elders that could help congregants. If the church had been teaching proper theology, questions would have been answered. Many people simply think the world has been unfair to them, when in fact, they are blessed. They need to go to Africa and sit in a Maasai hut and see how hard life can really be.
Yes - these are hard words. But they need to be said. Counseling shouldn't just be automatic. People really can work out issues if they are submitting to God and they understand scripture properly. The problem comes in when they don't really know the God they profess to love. They can only know God in that which He has revealed in scripture. But they really don't read scripture -- they read memes about scripture that are often out of context. They have no hermeneutic except that which is popularized (dispensationalism), which is a horrible hermeneutic.
I would encourage people to know WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it. Look for a NAPARC church, which will preach accurately so you will understand scripture in context. When you rest in God, and understanding that which He has revealed in scripture, all of those petty problems seem less important.
Ally. Is it wise for people to have a stash of meds at home. Can cause dependency or addictions or misdiagnosis without physician
Spiritual problems cannot be solved in the natural realm. But, natural problems can be solved in the spiritual realm.
I think there is some value in knowing your personality type because it is tied to learning styles AND other peoples tendencies and how other people learn so that you can yourself be a better and more adept communicator AND ENCOURAGER.
The title of this video is misleading. The enneagram is only briefly discussed.
Yep. Clickbait at it's best.
The Holy Spirit is willing and able, as the Living God, to enter human personality and change it; by Faith alone in Jesus Christ" John Owen
@donaldjohnson-wn6ps I think it's about wanting God's best for you. Everyone has room for improvement.
@donaldjohnson-wn6ps The Holy Spirit only comes into a person who has believed in Jesus Christ as their saviour from the penalty of their sins. Without A close personal relationship with Jesus Christ of the Bible, there will be no Holy Spirit. But a person's status as a sinner without Born Again experience will send a person to hell. That requires sober thoughts.
I have gone to secular therapists and found absolutely no help. However a Biblical counselor absolutely helped me look to God for help.
@@missymurphy9996 Bless your heart. Jesus is the Living Word. The Bible has sufficient counsel for all our challenges. I memorize and meditate and that works wonders.
The original title was way better for sharing it. This way, it looks like it's only about the Enneagram. 🤷🏻♀️🤔
Agreed!
Yep, she made it sounds all about the Enneagram to get clicks.
Come on ...even secular mental helth doctor is similar to physicians who take care of our body.......medical science is gift from God whether the doc is Christian or not
If you don't want to keep mental health in track thn don't go to medical physicians too......
Yes there is over diagnosis but it is seen in every field not only psychiatry
At the end of the day, our primary obligation as Christians is to obey an honor the God of the Bible. There is no part of creation that God is not sovereign over or that God does not understand in totality. Therefore, psychology is not “untouchable” and we should be able to dissect it, weigh it, measure it, and find it wanting if necessary.
That being said, I fully believe that depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, PTSD, all exist. But I also understand, that they do not have to be life sentences. People can and have healed.
Is this the same Enneagram as in Scientology? I was shocked that my local Dominican Sisters (across the street from our local Catholic college), is offering Enneagram .... sessions? I spent over 20 years in the New Age and I do not trust this at all!
I wouldn’t be surprised that nuns would be involved in such things. I live in a town where we have a large community of Catholic nuns, and they are rabidly left wing. They are much more concerned about the environment and “climate change” than they are about the lives of pre-born babies.
I’ve had such a tough time with therapists and finding a Bible based therapist has been impossible
There is a map on the ACBC website. You may find a Biblical counselor in your area. 🙏
I think that seminary should have some sort of required psychology course(s) AND CRITICAL THINKING REQUIRED COURSE because so many pastors are very ill equipped to handle human abuse toward other people and the physical and the mind are often totally ignored for the pleasantries of simplifying the problem to be "spiritual" when in fact it has to do with the mindset of abusive people and the mindset of people on the receiving end of abuse and that abuse is often complex and layers and affects people physiologically and psychologically.
Great episode!