Id like to see the sound change depending on how much damage reduction is in effect. Like if you are shooting armour health it makes the dink more like a donk and the normal shots lower pitched as well. And if you are shooting into a ram block or fortify then it makes a super low pitched hit sound. maybe even change the hit indicator to a red colour or something. Let new players really know that this is not working that well and encourage them to seek targets which their shots are more effective.
This is an excellent take the psychology involved in OW sound design is better than any game I’ve played. The satisfaction from hit markers or when you secure an elim is insane, so much dopamine.
@@milamber319similar to doomfists block and the thud that it makes when you shoot it, or kinetic grasp, DVA DM, any denial ability has really good sound to incentivize restraint
It's crazy how they need to keep pumping stats into tank and make them practically invincible because it's only one tank and the whole team relies on them and the whole enemy team focuses them. Problem is that it will make it so you will NEED your tank to protect you from the enemy tank or they'll stop you because they're unkillable and resistant to everything you can throw at them.
People dont realize that THIS is the problem now. It is the reason why no one can figure out a solution because they don't realize what the real problem is. Nerf tanks and they will be more fun to play. Its so counter-intuitive that everyone dismisses it. Its also the reason why the solution seems impossible without 6v6. But 6v6 naturally comes with nerfed tanks. You can nerf tanks without going back to 6v6 and all the problems that came with 6v6
Can I be honest I was thinking this the other day, why can’t he be in both. Like why can’t we have a dps doom that has different abilities and is balanced for the damage roll, and tank doom that’s balance for the tank roll. Basically have them act like seperate hero’s but with different kits. I know the real reason is that it just would look weird, but it would be fine over time. It honestly just be another hero to pick from. I never play doomfist but just thought this the other day.
Tbh as a Doomfist main as well, you can't really play the tank role like the rest. Nothing in your kit benefits your teammates, your value comes from causing as much disruption as possible. So playing as a DPS is pretty much how you have to play him.
@@Crusty_Sword Doom is pretty much still dps, if you cannot deal damage as doom you are basically useless... While other tanks can still be much more useful than doom while not doing damage.
For anyone that thinks they should punish counterswapping, the issue arises when you start the match and the matchup is atrocious, like a rein switching bc the enemy started as ram, and then you just punish the rein bc he doesn't want to fight a hard counter. And if you say "well what if you allow 1 swap before a punishment" then the enemy Ram will just use his 1 swap to swap to the counter of whatever the Rein swapped into, and you're back to square 1. You'd turn overwatch into a game of "who's lucky enough to get the better tank when first choosing your heroes" and you'll soon realize that's far worse than where we are now
@@itsmefirefox so you’d condemn players to an intentionally harder game if the other team happens to pick all your team’s counters? Making Overwatch luck based isn’t a great idea. Imagine you can’t swap, and you pick doomfist, just to find out the enemy team went roadhog sombra and mccree. You’re cooked, and it’s not even a fault of skill at that point, you would just lose based on luck
@@itsmefirefox If you couldn't swap heroes mid match then some heroes would literally just be useless. On Winston maps (Like Watchpoint: Gibraltar or Numbani) you would just use Dva because it is safer to pick Dva than play Winston due to the enemy possibly having Dva. Or Imagine stuck into playing Rein/Winston into Bastion. Stuck playing Hog/Mauga into Ana and Zen. Stuck playing Dva into Zarya etc.
This is a wild one that I thought of the other day- let damage mitigation as a stat charge your ult. It's like... not big and could be braindead, but my thought is that each role has a stat that increases their ult. DPS doing damage get ult faster to then do more damage with their ult (mostly), Supports healing get ult faster to then do more healing with their ult (also mostly), but Tanks dont have anything that's in the role's niche that contributes to ult charge. Along that same thought then, tanks don't have an engaging incentive other than "that's your job, shut up and do it." Other roles get to have fun while charging their ults, tanks have a miserable time being the damage sponge and the largest targets on the field. On top of that, a lot of the time as a tank you're going to be shooting at/denying space to the other tank... which gives you 20% less ult charge. If you give more ults on the tank role by adding damage mitigating as a stat that contributes to tult charge, it just might make their roles more engaging and fun to play.
@MegaScytheman idk what's more stupid now. Me for not knowing that, or the fact that mit doesn't build ult charge. I realize that different tanks have different amounts of mitigation, but there are ways around that.
Tank passive called "Stalwart Defender:" a stackable passive buff that reduces the damage taken by 5% for 2 seconds after taking damage from more then 1 enemy. For example 1 person shooting the tank has 0% reduction, but if 2+ people damage the tank then 5% damage reduction, and for each new enemy damaging the tank it adds another stack. The stacks can fall off independently I.E. if 5 heroes shoot at the tank at the same time then the buff stacks up 4 times, but then 3 heroes switch to different targets, but 2 are still shooting at the tank, then after 2 seconds the buff would drop to 1 stack. This would ideally discourage full focusing the tank, and encourage a single hero to work the tank down slowly, and calling for a focus to secure the kill when the tank is low, ideally preventing from melting.
Exactly, that would fix the tank melting experience where tanks can actually live longer then 3 seconds after jumping into combat, sure it’s a buff but that’s what I feel tank needs now
I think you're onto something with the resistance passive. Right now tanks have 30% knockback resistance, but knockback is such a small part of negative effects. You should also give a 30% drop to stun duration, knockdown duration, freeze hack sleep. But I don't think it should stop there. In lieu of flat damage resistance, I think they should take 30% less critical damage (1.7x instead of 2x). Once you have something like this across the whole tank role, you can start targeted balance adjustments to make the tanks less generalist and more unique.
The tank passive should work with every status effect in the game. Every CC, every negative effect like nade, Knockback of any kind. However I don't agree with the damage one.
I don't agree with everything. Things like Hook, Rooted, Gravity etc. kind of break if you change their impact. My thought process for the critical resistance is that it simultaneously covers some problem areas while also making opportunities in others. It stops Widow from 2-tapping most tanks without having to make her unplayable. It means you can more freely take the critical immunity away from Orisa. It allows you to take some of the flat DR away from characters like Hog and Mauga who get melted without it. Ultimately I just think it opens up more positives for balance than negatives.
One little tweak I've always wanted is, depending on the role, it would be nice to hear different sounds when a teammate gets killed. It'd also be cool if the hero could say a voice line when there are no healers, tanks, or dps around. Sound is just as important as the UI.
Idk about the different sounds bc that would just get confusing for people who aren’t familiar with it(maybe as an option) but that voice line sounds like a good idea, I only know that when u are down 2 people , one of ur teammates will say something about being overrun or something like that
The characters of your team already have voice lines for when you're outnumbered and when you ask for healing when there's no healers you ask for help, the game even tells you you have no healers close, what more do people need to pay attention to their surroundings?
There is. Tank has no counter play... to other roles. It's tank vs tank. And dps can counter tank. Healers can counter tanks. But you don't go "this tank" to counter bap/ana/mei/widow. It's up to dps and healer to counter other dps, healers, and tank
that sounds incredibly fucking boring, if people are that bored theyll stop playing tank and the queue times will continue to get worse, essentially not really fixing anything
I think the audio difference when u hit a tank is a rlly good a idea to start. The psychological part of getting the dopamine when u hit a tank is a lot more important than some might think.
Ive got two idea that can greatly help tanks, just because surviving is so tough. 1. Tanks either take reduced crits or they dont take crits. This will instantly avoid meta mauga because he can't just spray down the tank, and it actually lets tanks help the team if your on a sniper map. The tank can take a few hits while the rest of the team can be one shot so a sig for instance could let his team keep his shield until the widow is forced away. 2. A kind of rage mechanic which only the tank role can get. At about 30-35% of hp tanks will take like 15-20% reduced damage, and be resistant to CC even more, like taking almost no knockback. To keep this fair the dmg reduction can't stack on anything with things like take a breather only going to their natural state, this would also avoid orisa popping fortify with it. Certain tanks can also have slight variations like maybe rein has an adrenaline boost and he gets an increased walking speed, queen increases ult charge slightly, and other things that make those specific tanks have a high risk high reward scenario, afterall they are at very low health. Just things i thought would fit the idea of a tank
I really liked the 1 because you could know precisely how many hits you could take. Right now, it's really fast to die from a Torb/Reaper headshot with Winston. I've died so many times by jumping => taking 5 headshots => going back to spawn without even having the time to use my ult.
@@hypadao235 yeah those headshots are rough, ive had game where he's just more oppressive than the tank just because we couldn't enter an area without get destroyed by his head shots and turret together. I'd say his overclock really needs to be changed the most though, torb literally gets more health than 4 tanks in open queue games iirc using that cooldown and his attack rate just gets gross with it
THis only works if you also do what spilo suggested which is make it less satisfying to shoot tanks. Like you also need to make the *tink* discordant to make sure players understand that their damage is reduced and they are not getting value. I really like the idea of the dink gets lower pitched the more damage reduced it is. So if you are shooting into armour health it gives you a hint that your shots arent as effective and if you are shooting fortify or ram block its super low pitched to let you know that its basically doing nothing.
@@milamber319 the idea of the pitch lowering as you damage us reduced/on a tank is a pretty good. It'd also make the passive feel stronger than it realistically is so a dps or support would likely try avoiding the tank in this scenario. Mainly wasnt thinking about that because it was already a good idea
Being plinked in the head by a hanzo and cassidy really sucks without a super high health pool, i like the idea of reduced crits, but its a slippery slope because orisa would die less and so would hog
I think we need to get rid of the ult carry over passive; it makes counter swapping even better of an option than it should be. Even if you think counter swapping is a core part of overwatch, you can't deny that the strain on ult economy kept it in check. along with that, I'd giga-mega-buff tank ultimates (while increasing their cost a too), together without ult carry over I think this would help bring in the counter swapping issue. Now a days ult combos are so much more important that individual ults. So then if the average ults can be described as the number 1, i'd buff tanks to generally be 1.5. A total game changer, and something you'd feel the impact of wasting by counter swapping. It'd be something to make tanks feel strong without them just stomping on the opposition. There needs to be a change in direction of buffs too. The age of a tank just eating damage to take space are gone, it seems we're already seeing a shift personally, but I need full throtle on the idea that tanks be balanced around their ability to manipulate interactions between their team and the enemy. Roles are based off designed interactions, and before tanks had a balance of interacting with the enviorment and disrupting interaction between the enemy and your team, with taking space taking a far back seat, more characters like Zarya need to pop up, and existing ones should take a page out of her book. Her value is directly tied to how well she disrupts the enemy teams ability to interact with her team. I think this is the new direction, and and example of how they could implement this change to a couple of tanks would be to lower the duration of JQ shout, but give it a shorter cooldown, therefore you can use it like twice a fight more convincingly for pushes. I'd make Ram's ravenous vortex all around better (and increase the cooldown), because then it'd create this intense contrast between using it defensively against mobile heros, hampering their assault, or offensively, calling out out of position enemies. This should be the direction tanks take in overwatch 2, the saving grace of 6 v 6 for the tank role was that you took turns being a fucking punching bag, 6 v 6 wont save you, it'll just make you hate your other tank for not swapping in to cover damage.
I had an idea, but I watched this first, and went through some of the tweets, so here is my revised "How To Make Tank Fun Again in three changes" (based on points that actually made sense) 1. Minimap. I wasn't a big fan either, but really the information buff is going to help people soooo much. 2. Additional tank passive: x% damage mitigation. In lieu of this; Tanks that RELY on mitigation abilities have them taken away for more team centric abilities eg Dooms power block gets taken away and instead he does like a ground punch that gives everyone in a radius around him like... 50 shield health for x seconds... etc 3. Armor. This step has layers so let me cook; First: Nerf armor to have like 15% dmg mitigation. (you'll see why) Second: Change the tank passive to add additional armor instead of additional health for tanks Third: Add COMPLETE CC IMMUNITY AS LONG AS YOU ARE HITTING ARMOR Fourth: Dull audio like hitting wood as long as you are hitting armor (crits sound dull too) I think this way, balancing armor will be more of a per-case basis than a blanket change. What do you think?
I had a long ass paragraph written I clicked out and lost it I don't have it in me to do it again... But yes. Minimal. NOT JUST a minimal. I also want to pause or press select or whatever. I want a full screen map
1. Really just QOL, but good 2. Tank should definitely have that passive, and it would make them not need as much health overall/not take as long for supps to heal. You have to be careful with the team ability changes though. 3. Yes. No CC due to armor just makes sense, they can tweak the numbers as needed then
Hear me out: No hero bans, but rather hero pool selection. You select 2-3 heroes you could play in a game at the beginning. Ult charge for tanks is used for 2 things: 1) Using your ult 2) Swapping to another hero in your pool in realtime like a tag team mechanic Maybe Winston dives in and tags your Rein out (kind of like how BOB flys in/out). Maybe there’s a window where your tank is out of the fight. Also, reduce CC and/or the efficacy of CDs on tanks. Don’t know if this could also be applied to other roles too. Wouldn’t make you feel bad if your hero got banned as it’s additive, rather than subtractive. Also, removes the “I see you are X tank, so I’m going Y tank.” Bc it may not be in your hero pool. Would force players to actually learn how to play tanks in more situation rather than just giving up and swapping immediately - learning zilch.
I think the defining role for tanks should be the ability to break or hold choke points. I dont think they should be an ambiguous point presence or high hp dps. My first change i would before anything else would be to reduce ult charge for all tanks by a significant amount. I think the fastest way to bring tanks away from counter picks is to reduce ult costs for tanks across the board. Tank ults are massive, and losing that should be the cost of switching in the mid fight. You could argue that lower ult charge will incentivize switch because you can build your ult fast, but with how tank ults lead to snowballing being the tank to ult first is a massive advantage. My second change if the first wasn't enough would be to change the passive from a defensive oriented to an action oriented passive. Doomfists personal passive is a great example. If tanks are rewarded with sustain for making active plays instead being rewarded with sustain by virtue of being the tank, the game will feel better to learn. If these still dont work to make tank more fun, my last change would to change armor health and give all tanks armor and remove armor from not tanks. I would change armor from damage reduction to cc immunity.
The Mini-map thing is iffy honestly I could see them adding the HP Display(PvE HUD) with distance and elevation markers next to it in a really condensed but understandable way. Something like [46.6m ^] to gage vague but meaningful information. I could only see Minimap working if it was like Warframes, mostly hollow and vague layout and dots with arrows above and below to show elevation so it doesnt get too messy.
Give tanks more abilities and take away some of their stats, tanks with forever be stat sticks until they have some of the flexibility two tanks gave in overwatch 1
i think a big problem for tank as someone who used to love playing tank in og overwatch is that almost all the tanks in the game are playing like what would be considered secondary tanks in ow1 for the simple fact that they lack any real area denial. we only have 2 shield heroes, dva has her matrix (for as fast as that drains), Ramatra's rings, and if you want to count hogs traps then sure but its not really threatening, Thats it. Doomfist, Junker Queen, Malga, and Winston lack any real area denial, their just beefy dps if anything. The Tank role should be defined by how the different tanks control space, if any role should be defined by cc it should be them and no one else. In exchange for killing power they get powerful cc that limits the opponent's options on how to proceed and fight on their terms, they should be the glue of the team.
I have an idea on how to make the horse less annoying. Reowork fortified to be a channeling ability that after 1 second you turn into something similar to old bastion turret but without the crazy damage. The idea is you would need to predict the ability like punch/pin/BOB/etc instead of reacting. To balance the loss of movement you instantly reset your heat bar and get 100% heat reduction while keeping the fortified effect. This allows you to block ultimate combos like shatter/firestrike/pin from rein and it also allows for a little experimental idea of increasing orisa’s hitbox when she does that to be even more of a wall.
rein buff is shield gets buffed by +100-150 for 30 sec after ult, and after shield breaks he gets +25-50 armor to make it so if his shield breaks he isn't useless
I think OW just needs to reevaluate what roles mean. I know barely anybody will read this, but I loved this game since it launched and I genuinely want to share my thoughts. DPS - Straightforward. Deal damage. Always what it should be, always what it will be. A DPS's kit is built around maximizing damage and surviving in case said damage doesn't kill something in time. Support - Ensure a team stays alive. Whether its debuffing/damaging an enemy or healing allies, buffing allies, cleansing debuffs, etc., support is a role intended to ensure that your team either kills the other team, or that your team outlasts the other team. Tank - This is the conflicting topic, but there are two versions of this (in games where 1 tank is only necessary) that I've seen is successful: 1. Damage Mitigation. And there's a big difference between mitigation and a sponge. Damage sponge is standing there and absorbing everything. Not fun. But mitigation can be in multiple forms, whether it be attracting enemy attention for a short period of time, or even acting as a secondary support, giving a short stun to opponents to prevent a kill, or giving allies some sort of buff that allows your team to live just a little bit longer. This is the more practical tank, and the more common portrayal of tanks in game where you're not actively swinging a hammer or shooting a gun (auto battlers, or MMORPGs like FFXIV or WoW). 2. Space Makers. This version of tanks act as consistent bulky threats that move around a map and essentially "push" people out. These are tanks that have some sort of soft movement CC that prevent other players from either running away or changing focus to an ally. These tanks are fun because your role is to serve as an active threat, an attention mitigator if you will, versus damage mitigation. The reason why tank is such a problem now is because OW originally was supposed to have BOTH versions of the role in the game. One tank acts as a damage mitigator, ensuring your team survives, especially during big ult exchanges. The other acts as an attention mitigator, becoming a priority threat if left unchecked. OW2 tries to force both roles into 1, which is a huge issue, because no role should have to do all of that alone. Combining Damage Mitigation + Attention Mitigation = Damage Sponge, and Damage Sponge is the WORST version of the tank, because it means one person has to both grab attention AND make sure a team doesn't die, which is simply unrealistic. The reason why people say 5v5 doesn't work for tank is because OW2 is still fundamentally the same game as 6v6 (hence the 1.5 jokes), you force two roles onto a tank when there was typically two roles. Support have two roles (which is explained in most OW support vids), and DPS's double character just means your team has enough damage. My proposed changes for OW would be to change damage types, and create a game where we have 5 roles instead of simply 3. We already have support split into 2, which is pretty easy to do atm. But we should also get more damage types than simply "damage". Most 5v5 mobas with a major tank role have "physical/magic" splits, and its strange that while OW is an FPS, it's also still functionally a MOBA. Hey, I mean if we had physical vs. like laser damage (we have a ton of lasers lmao), it would at least give variety to what needs to be tanked. Instead of fixating on the 3 roles we have, we need to be aware that because there's imbalance in the roles now, we need to divide them further so that they ARE balanced (in which case, since 5 is a prime number, it only makes sense to now make 5 roles). This is just an outward analysis and I have no clue what the devs will actually do. But at the very least, I wanted to add some thoughts to the conversation.
I mean there are technically multiple "roles" for dps it's just that to separate them would make more than 2 categories. Flyers, hitscan which can include snipers, tank busters, divers, area controllers which includes turret placers, and stallers; and many characters fit multiple roles. For example, a Cassidy can tank bust a Winston while being a hitscan; a Junkrat can stall with his trap while also being a tank buster; a Mei can act like a sudo sniper while also being a staller; Hanzo and Widow and are snipers and can control area, but Widow is also hitscan; a Reaper can dive someone but they're also a tank buster; Sym is a turret placer, but she also deals with tank (D.Va) and her ult is good for stalling enemy progression; etc... The reason that there are so many dps options is because dps has to fill out a lot of roles. Sometimes you need 2 hitscans because a good flyer can handle 1, sometimes you need 2 tank busters because of the enemy comp. If that's not what you meant sorry, but what would your 5 role categories be? Also while I never played ow1 I do agree with your points on tank and personally think 2 tanks would be better. I do think that having more types of damage would be interesting, right now there's only splash, beam, and a bullet. 1 of those can avoid being deflected or absorbed and 1 of them just ignores it. Sym and echo are the only dps with beams and echo isn't really viable at a range close enough to someone who can absorb/deflect attacks. Having another option for a dps beam would be nice, idk what other damage type you could make though
@@crisdelgadillo6502 Heyo, in writing the comment I forgot about hit scan vs. projectile, but really it doesn’t change my thoughts on DPS. Besides characters like sombra and sym who have more of a “support” role than the rest of the dps, most dps do the same thing, which is, well, shoot things. Compare this to main support and off support which are distinctly different roles and purposes, or main tank and off tank, which are also different roles and purposes. They do different jobs and have to learn the game differently (a good comparison would be flats vs emongg actually, since their playstyles represent main vs off respectively). The reason why I suggest different damage types is because it would relieve offensive pressure without making a character incredibly strong. Sure the balancing would take ages, so I’m not sure how it would happen, but let me take a couple characters for example. Mauga is a big one. He just does ludicrous amounts of damage and healing, and when he’s meta, his sole purpose is to rip apart the other tank. Now, imagine if the damage of his right gun (a physical damage) was calculated separately from his left gun (a “special” damage), and each hero had different defensive reductions based on this damage. Suddenly his matchups would be less “I rip through you” and more “okay, I need to prioritize different targets based on game knowledge” which would contribute to “removing the dopamine effect from shooting tank” without making a tank feel like a damage sponge. You’re faced with a physically defensive tank, oh, use the left gun, poke a bit to get healing, and try to dive supports. You’re faced with a special tank, try to light em up as quickly as possible and rip through them. My point is that it would make damage feel less oppressive. Instead of dying because of solely damage, you’ll realize it’s more simply that your character is less fit for the job. While this might encourage counter swapping more, at the same time it also turns counter swapping into a skill itself, rather than just “tank matchups”, since now you’ll have to change the way you play tank against supports and vice versa (imagine being able to force bastion mains out because defensively you’re tanky against a physical damage, so they’d have to swap to someone like mei or sojourn who would likely do a different type of damage). Counter swapping is an integral identity of competitive OW, and I think if anything is kept, it should be, because it gives players agency to make last minute decisions that can turn a tide. On new roles, it would probably go something like this: - Tank - ADC (or whatever term OW uses) - DPS - Debuff Support - Healing Support (again, these names would probably change based on what OW wants) ADC would be a mix of tanks that were more aggressive and squishy to begin with (tank characters like junkerqueen, hog, zarya or dps characters like reaper, bastion, mei) who have ways of tanking more damage than usual and act as “shoot first” characters, which is as the name implies, attack damage carry. They push forward deal an aggressive amount of damage, and die for it (ofc they’d be balanced respectively to fit the role more) Debuff support would be your brig, sombra, sym, zen, hell, maybe even echo. Characters who mix damage and debuffs to give your team an advantage. Again, they would require rebalancing, but these would also be characters where they have some of the CC presence of tanks, but are squishier and sit in a backline doing other things as well, such as dealing damage or healing. My last point is whether or not there’d be role queue. Frankly, I don’t know. Having 5 roles restricts the roster a tremendous amount, meaning slower queue times, as there’s more roles to queue for. But hey, I never said this idea was perfect, and there had to be a catch anyway.
Finally someone that mentions turning tanks into bullet sponges isn't really fun, it's already hard to kill a tank now and people want to give them more health and damage reduction? That'll just make the game in general feel even clunkier to play
My take on this is not to buff numbers but to change how the role works. The best way to explain it is to make everyone have an ability or passive that works like the queen's command shout or Mauga's area. Something that helps the whole team like a real frontline.
Going along with this, is I think a good start to make the game more interesting IN GENERAL would be to give each hero a UNIQUE passive to who the hero is. Obviously this is a big ask right now, but I think having heroes that have unique passives would be a good step in improving the general health of the game overall. No other "MOBA" (not sure what else to classify OW as) has flat passives for each type of hero, instead each hero has unique passives that may have a good symbiotic effect with another hero whether it be passives working well together, or one hero having a passive that works well in conjunction with another heroes abilities. I think this would help not just tanks significantly, but also make the game more interesting to play. In my opinion, having flat role passives is extremely boring. Why does a spray-and-pray hero like bastion or tracer share pretty much the same set of passives as widowmaker? Why does Mei share passive effect with sombra? Obviously some heroes already have a semi-unique passive but its never anything particularly interesting or game-changing. This could also create room for tanks to have good passives that not only benefit their team, but also help them frontline better rather than just a flat, two-dimensional boring passive such as "cc less good on tank". A good example of an ability that had kind of the same effect but wasnt a passive was torbjorns shields he could put on the ground for his team to pick up. It wasn't hugely overpowered, but gave torbjorn a very unique ability that allowed him to be more than just a "point and shoot/ place turret" hero. Doing something like this with other heroes in the game, and maybe even giving torbjorn back his shields would help with a lot of things the game struggles with today. Afterthought: - Honestly, I think adding abilities back like torbjorns shield packs could make the game more enjoyable for not just tanks but for everyone else. It would provide a nice defensive buff that wasn't permanent for people, which helps lessen the impact of the new DPS passive, and helps take some pressure off the tanks WITHOUT taking away from the tanks purpose.
@@mckookie2967 6 v 6 isn't the way, it's not gonna stop counter switching, it's not gonna stop tanks from feeling like a designer punching bag, and if it doesn't do those 2 things they 6 v 6 isn't a better solution in the slightest. The real difference from overwatch 1 is that counter swapping used to balanced out by disrupting your teams ult economy, which just isn't as true anymore since you retain ult charge when you switch. That's the change they should revert.
RIP, wanted this suggestion to get looked at didn't see he was doing this. Firstly, reduce the strain on support resources by reducing the total health pool to restore and making tanks take less incoming damage. - Reduce tanks health by 45-55% this way they are more like 300-400hp. - Tanks will take 40% less damage meaning 100 damage is now only 60 damage. Secondly, reduce the effect of "ALL" status effects by 40%. Below you'll see a list of what I mean by status effects. The purpose of this is to reduce the effectiveness of them since they are most likely to be dumped/utilized on the tank. This ultimately means that enemies will gain less ultimate charge and their abilities won't have as much benefit to be used on the tank. The reduced hp is to compensate for the 40% damage reduction which effectively makes able to be health restored almost 2x faster and able to sustain when supported almost 2x easier. Where they will be "nerfed" slightly is the fact the they will have around 5-15% less effective hp so when fully unsupported they will die faster. Most/All Tanks would likely need some # adjustments to compensate for the greater sustain and health changes. Potential status effect / ability changes [ANA] - Sleep Dart will only be 3 Seconds (Down from 3.5 seconds verse Tanks). [ANA] - Anti Nade will stop 60% of Healing Received. (Down from 100%). [ZEN] - Discord Orb’s increase on damage received is reduced to 18%. (Down from 30%). [JUNKRAT] - Steel Trap stepping in will last 1.5 seconds. (Down from 2.5 seconds). [SOMBRA] - Hack Ability lockout duration reduced to 0.9 seconds. (Down from 1.5 seconds). [CASSIDY] - Magnetic Grenade slow effect reduced to -15% slow. (Down from -25% Slow). [ASHE] - Dynamite burn duration reduced to 3 seconds. (Down from 5 seconds). [WIDOWMAKER] - Venom Mine poison duration reduced to 3 seconds. (Down from 5 seconds). [ROADHOG] - Chain Hook pull speed reduced to 24m/s. (Down from 40m/s). [ROADHOG] - Pig Pen slow -40% slow → -24% slow [JQ] Jagged Blade wound damage occurs over 1.8 seconds. (Down from 3 seconds). [JQ] Carnage Wound Damage occurs over 1.8 seconds. (Down from 3 seconds). [MEI] Endothermic blaster slow effect reduced to -18% slow. (Down from -30% slow). [RAMATTRA] Ravenous Vortex slow effect reduced to -24% slow. (Down from -40% slow). [MAUGA] - Incendiary Chaingun burn effect reduced to 1.8 seconds. (Down from 3 seconds). [MAUGA] - Volatile Chaingun will now take 14 shots to cause critical. (Up from 10 shots). [SYMMETRA] - Sentry Turret slow effect reduced to -9% slow. (Down from -15% slow). [SIGMA] - Accretion reduced knockdown duration to 0.72 seconds. (Down from 1.2 seconds). [DPS PASSIVE] - Reduced to 9% (Down from 15%).
@@Midguardsormr Yep, but did you actually read what i wrote or just write a dumb response? The "40%" damage reduction must have went over your head because that would be broken if we didn't reduce their total health in relation. All that really happens is supports can heal them 2x faster and they don't explode while being healed as easily.
@@MadMax55777 Can you elaborate why you think my suggestion suggests that? I rewrote it slightly and made it more descriptive if for some reason part of it made no sense in it's more simplified form.
Building on the HUD idea/ general QOL stuff, having something similar to damage indicators showing the direction of your assailants, but for your team. So if your supports are getting jumped, you get a little indicator, similar to how supports can see critical health. Another thing is just more in-game voices. In Apex, characters will call out automatically when the team is spread too far apart, situational voice lines are often overlooked and can help a lot in low tiers.
I was actually thinking about this, making my own Overwatch 2 like game. First the roles would be renamed: Bosses, Bandits, Back-up. Bosses work like big slow DPS that can spread out lots of damage, but might kill 1-2 people. The drawback is that they have a LONG cooldown. Like wait next fight kind of long. If they use that cooldown on the 1v1 thet will win, but maybe not have it during the team fight. Bosses become less like a wall and more like a stop sign. They push, you stop, they retreat, you go.
As simple as possible fix? The role of off-tank is missing, so replace it with a flex role. Get rid of second support and have characters (like brig, mei, lucio) who fill the peel/frontline fights in that category
If 5v5 is to stay, possibly adding weaknesses in tanks that only other tanks can exploit and specific to the tank matchup. Maybe for example if a Rein pins an Orisa into a wall it does extra damage but only specifically to Orisa or other specified tanks? Or if Zarya gets past a certain Charge level it can pierce Winston bubble but does less damage though said bubble? Adding ways for tanks to play into each other without defaulting to counter swapping would be a good start.
I prefer the idea of overkitting every tank so that each tank could effectively brawl each other regardless of the outcome. Sigma and Ramattra are way better than Reinhardt for this reason.
@@scumknight6074that honestly doesn't sound fun though. It sounds like every tank will be homogenous more or less, at which point you might as well just have 1 tank at all
My Idea for it is probably a bit simple but might just be enough. 1. Increase Tank Health a little bit more. Back in 6v6 there would be basically 800-1000 Health from both tanks and to have that lowered by a sufficient amount is a bit nuts, I’m not saying Tanks should have 1000 health as that would be crazy but maybe bump Rein to 750 (400+350) and Hog to maybe 850 may be effective enough. 2. Increase the efficiency of Defensive abilities. Most of the defensive abilities usually don’t have efficient defence, for the Tank or the Team, and I find that maybe increasing their to a balance would be fair, some don’t need adjusting like Fortify or Defence Matrix but maybe increases to Rein Shield, Doom’s Passive Overhealth etc. may be enough to help with survival without having to gigabuff supports or Healing. 3. Add more to the Tank Passive. The Tank passive has fair effects but its nowhere near effective enough, so I would personally add two parts to it: First being what I call “Unyielding”, Tanks have a passive 5% Damage reduction when NOT using a defensive ability. Overhealth will also remain unaffected by this passive but natural health would. Second is what I would call “Unshaken”, all tanks have varying amounts of effective protections from Debuffs and CCs, with a few exceptions. I would also change how some effects work like how some would ignore armour. 4. An address to Counter swapping. Just set Ult to 0% again, and lower Ult generation earned for 30 seconds to make it more punishing and needs to to be more considered to do, across all Roles, to swap to counter must be necessary to prevent hard counters from just holding, which would mainly be done by balancing, but some characters on Principle will do that anyway as part of their identity, but still shouldn’t be so risk free
What about: 1. A damage / cc reduction passive for tank but excluded enemy tank. 2. Increase tank damage but increase damage fall off. (For example after 10-20 meters dmg start dropping for brawl tanks) 3. Reduce tank sustain abilities but add a minor consistent healing for tanks (For exmaple 5 hp per sec). For reference I'm not a tank main just throwing out ideas.
my main takeaways from the video - minimap would be insanely helpful for team coordination but should be optional as pro players know where their team is and as flats was on the rant about how he doesn't think tanks should just be big dps role I got an idea - tank should be reworked to do less damage with more health AND __healers should be reworked to do less healing so that tanks can still be threatening enough to create space__ and secure kills and be threatening enough to open space. this way dive tanks still can dive in and create space but wont be used to just be gunning down the back row. this change can fundamentally change the tank role, making tanks more like the miniboss of each team rather than a fat dps that has to hide after being immediately gunned down. however it might help to make some changes to tank heros to adjust to this, and having some dmg dealing abilities for tanks to secure kills better can still fit in just fine ps I'm against hero bans and I can explain some of my reasoning it will target one tricks, heros who have a niche in certain maps making those heros dead, and I feel will just generally achieve little while annoying people pps completely unrelated but for the love of god why wont overwatch make it so that when someone leaves the game an ai will take their place
1. Make the tank passive 30% over all resistance. This would apply to discord, dps passive, boop, how long stuns last, how long freeze lasts. And as of rn I can’t think of anything extra 2. Add a 5% damage reduction to all incoming damage onto a tank. This would mean the ratio of healing to damage would be solved 3. Reduce tank health by 50 so that their not too tanky as to where they never die
I’m plat on tank so probably a million things I’m no understanding about the knock on effects. But I feel this could really deal with the issue of so many status effects being apyed to you mid fight
Something I would love to see tried is giving tanks ult charge when they get hit by negative effects or CC (from targeted non ult CC at least). So for example lets say you get 5% charge per negative effect. So when you get hit by Sleep, anti, hinder, hack, rock, and discord you would get a whopping 30% ult charge from their bullying. I think this gives tanks the ability to be a bit more imposing, and prevents others from trying to make their game miserable just for the sake of it. I would love it if they were less effected by environmental CC as well, basically anything that wouldn't give ult charge. Ex: they wouldn't be slowed much by mie gun or ram circle thing. Now this would be a big shakeup and be a huge lift for balancing the entire cast afterwards but I think there is real merit to the idea, or at least it would be fun for tanks.
Hm true, but then we have a scenario where we are basically encouraging the tank to feed to an extent, and that just wouldn't feel great... especially in the lower rank. I'm all for this idea, but obviously since it's such a different take on what to do with tank, balancing it won't be as easy.
skill trees! The feature that woulda been added for pve would be amazing, let you change how you play and can make tanks more versatile and more fun to play. Would also make all the other roles more fun ,
Dopamine hit idea.. Make the intensity of the dink sound be proportional to the percentage of HP you are doing in damage. So if you do 10 damage to a tank with 500hp it will be a quiet, unsatisfying sound but if you do the same damage to a Tracer it would be more intense since 10hp out of 150 is a much higher percentage of her total life. You still get the satisfying hit markers on tanks if they are low, and that's when they are a better target anyway. But people will naturally prefer to get the nice juicy sounds out of squishier targets.
Overwatch is supposed to be designed like a fps smite or league (at least if i remember right) but something ive noticed from smite is the guardians or tanks in that game almost all have a strong cc in some form to create plays same as overwatch but what those dont have is a equal amount of cc AND saving abilities to deny the play u tried to make. Each support either has a cc or cancel ability to stop ur play but it also creeps into dps with hinder and mei slow. There is also movement creep. So with that almost every support snd dps can either effectively deny your play or evade your play
@@diablotry5154 Tanks get a vote. Something needs to change. Balance team hasn't said whether they're ever going to fix the tank experience to suit 5v5. Being the lobbies' personal dinkydinky hero to make DPS heroes feel better is antithetical to their designed purpose. People who farm crit shots off the tanks head at the expense of shooting any other target is one of tank's primary issues and among the most obvious fixes. Don't make it fun to shoot at the tanks head and tank in general. The game balance should punish people who focus tank thoughtlessly. This happens in every other role based game. This isn't controversial. If they can make the headshot fix without any other adjustments to HP then slowly tune it back, it'll feel alright.
U have to make the tanks operate as two tanks , they need to lower the effects the effects of cc on them , and u have to give them utility to play against their counters which gives them options to play against their counters, and stop unnecessary restrictions on tank that get opened up by roles n character eg. lucio speed n rian , tank agency should not be locked to the other roles
No that means you incentivized to only play the strongest tank out of gate and for your dps and supports to swap last so they can hard counter the enemy tank the most for a easy win.
IMO and after testing a few things, I think that, although not a perma-fix to the Tank role but increasing Tank basic movement speed by 20% and 15% in-combat Ultimate charge. I can't code for the life of me but I figured that giving Tanks more movement could allow them to have an easier time to dodge enemy cooldowns. And the 15% in-combat Ultimate increase so that they get rewarded for making aggressive plays and more opportunities to make plays. The movement speed increase also showed me that they are faster at taking space and disengaging if they feel like doing so without it being impossible to chase off if they are really out of position. The 5v5 format is not going to be perfect for Tanks but the Dev team have yet to really address any of the Tank issues. The Gameplay for Supports has being tackled across 8+ seasons and DPS with the new passive but Tank have yet to really have a season focusing on them and their issues. 5v5 is a complete new format and the Dev team really needs to help the Tank role asap. It has been the most forgotten role for too long. The test was conducted across High Plat - Low Silver but I will continue to test this with more players to see if it could at least help the Tank role just a bit. (NOTE: Not saying that these adjustments need to be a new passive. Just that the gameplay around tanks have not changed and the format have not benefited Tanks because the Dev Team has yet to really make significant improvements to the role.) Open for feedback! EDIT: DPS passive should be decreased on Tanks. 20% on Squishies and 10-15% on Tanks imo.
Crazy Idea I’be had recently, what if we made all tanks hitbox and model look more like Queen and Zarya, might need some lore reason as to why with many of the tanks BUT it would make the whole “easy to hit ur op CD’s on” harder like sleep for example, you would have to balance HP and damage around this change ofc but I think it would make them more fun, I think most tanks don’t rely on their size tbh and those who do can get a size buff during specific CD’s, for example Orisa during gold, Ram during form and Rein/Monkey get their “size” from their respective shields
I think tank damage mitigation should provide over health or healing equal to 10-15% of the damage absorbed. This makes doom, d.va, rein, etc. all better picks into hitscan and high sustain dps. I feel like tying each role’s passive to their unique role category, like damage output being tied to healing reduction, support healing being tied to healing done (like mercy’s passive) and tank mitigation being tied to more tankiness is the way to go. This ensures/incentivizes that each role is doing their job.
Keep in mind I haven't touched this game in a long while, but this is a random idea I came up with Give tank almost like an on fire meter that once charged enters a brief period of "rage", with slightly increased movement speed and a one-time 100% block to certain abilities, namely nade and hinder. Once entering this state the meter would slowly decrease until depleted for it to be charged once again. Might change things for the better, might make a different slew of problems, but it's different and could be interesting. Charging the meter could have priorities in how it gets charged. Maybe attacking multiple enemies in one or few shots yields extra charge, or killing enemies with assists could affect the charge gain depending on what would want to be encouraged. I think the main point is that the system chosen is complex enough that balancing could all come down to just tweaking a few numbers to adjust for particular tank heroes.
I guess this dosen't solve the whole tank explodes problem but 1. Remove retain ult charge on swap compeletly 2. Make tank ults across the board alot stronger and more valuable. 3. Nerf / rework abilties that deny ults too efficently (Lamp, Suzu etc.) This might help the counterswap issue by making it so having ult advantage for these hypotethical buffed ults is far more valuable, so their is a decision to be made to swap for an advantage or stay on your tank to not give up on the ult economy race.
Things that ive suggested and even contributed to Spilo tackling this a few months ago. a tank passive. that only enables 1 debuff to be active on a tank anyone time. weather if applying a debuff on a target already debufed has no effect or cancels the former when applying the new one. DPS passive is separate to this in that there is a minimum damage threshold before applying the effect, furthermore, the duration when applied is half than other roles. Tanks also have a reduced respawn timer enabling them to get back in the fight sooner. from this point it comes down to adjusting each tank individually to finish off.
Thing is that the resistance to all CCs would be super good for all tanks. From at least 30% to 40% it would massively impact tanks like Hog, Doom and even WBall. But for those tanks maybe lower some of their health.
it was nice to be at your appearance at the esports tower flats! good to hear what you had to say and I would love to be good at overwatch, but it is rough like you said with people fighting lmaoo
At around 21:00 you mention the mini map. Not only do I agree, I think that would be imperative to fixing the Sombra problem too. When she hacks health packs or characters, she can see them on the minimap AND they tell you who is there in an area around them. No more perma invis and her translocator has a timer of invis after throwing it. Then she can actually be the “hacker” they want without actively ruining the game with a perma invis character.
I think spilo was saying that we should increase the effort it takes for “brain dead dps” to shred tanks. Bastions turret form is extremely oppressive to a lot of tanks with the bastion having to risk very little.
Spilo’s acting as if Bastion’s hard meta, while literally listing his other counter. Reaper and Bastion aren’t braindead, they’re simple and have to take risks on their own. If he considers tank shredding to be oppressive, then every hitscan dps needs to be nerfed too.
A thing me and a friend was talking about was getting ride of role passives in general and giving characters passive based on there kit and personality. When overwatch 2 was first announced and I saw that zen was Getting a stronger melee it was cool and awesome that he had something no other hero had. It started happening to new hero’s as they came out as well and while not totally sure it could fix some stuff with all characters. I don’t have any solutions to counter-swapping and I don’t think any one solution is going to work perfectly.
The fix in my head has always been give each tank +1 new ability to make each of them more well-rounded in what they can do. That way theoretically we can see less counter swapping because matchups won't be so deterministic. We can also drop the health pool and damage on tanks to compensate. Never seemed like a good idea to just add stats to tanks to compensate going from 2 to 1 tank per team. In the interview with Aaron Keller you both talked about the need for overwatch to have more 'levers' to adjust, and I think this approach adds not one but a series of levers that can be finely adjusted - versus just adding one new global passive as a massive lever who's impact on certain characters will be disproportionate.
i fucking love the mini-map idea. i struggle to get into a really competitive mindset, knowing where things are, where everyones standing. so on and so on. a mini map just to know where my team is at any given point when my team may not be great at communicating that would be huge.
I think its 2 things. 1. make tanks reduce all anti effects (as has been mentioned) 2. 2 flex slots per team. Still can't have more than 2 of any role but you make 1 tank 1 dps and 1 healer and then 2 slots which you can flex choose. If you want 2 tanks you can but you have to give up a dps or healer.
Tanks are supposed to be space creators and tempo setters, but they individually do those jobs differently. However they can be grouped somewhat together in how they do it. I think we should give a passive to each one of those groups. An example is that dive tanks get a buff of some kind the more people they are affecting, the more cooldowns they force the enemies to use (obviously not continuous but within a fight or timeframe) or Rush Tanks getting a temporary buff when full sending. Their passive should incentivize quick and decisive action.
Possibly a horrendous take but I think it would be interesting to change the balance philosophy to the following: DPS - Damage and Mobility: Tone down or remove DPS CC and allow them to focus on getting picks. Tank - negative effects to enemies: lower tank damage but crank the amount of CC, debuffs, and health they have. (Like in the 1000-1200 range) For example: reign heart hammer swings have less damage but massive knockback, Mauga fire makes enemies venerable, JQ E applies antiheal. Since CC is only on one hero, it gets around permastuns while still allowing them to make a significant contribution to team fights, just not with damage. Supports - focus on healing and buffing team: Remove support CC (sleep, Ana nade, discord, etc) but allow them to buff team members in new ways (cd reduction, rate of fire increases, single target damage reduction) which would allow for DPS to get more reliable kills and tank to CC more. It seems like each game would play like a tug of war game with DPS setting a baseline, Tank trying to reduce enemy effectiveness, and Supps increasing ally effectiveness. It seems like it would be a pain in the ass to balance from a hero fantasy perspective but may lead to more defined roles with different ways of contributing to a team fight.
I agree that the biggest knob they need to tune is the Tank passive. Knockback resistance just isn't enough. Tanks will take everything, and if they're always going to be so easy to hit, then debuffs need to be less effective on them. 30% less time on anti-heal, DPS passive, Discord damage, slows, stuns, hacks, traps, all of it. I also agree that reducing the satisfaction of shooting the tank would help a lot. It could also reinforce the idea that trying to shoot them down isn't as effective as denying their plays or avoiding their engages. It at least shouldn't be as effective. Tanks don't need to do more damage, they just have to not fall over attempting to hold any space.
A Hero pick+ban system can potentially change alot of the counter swap problems. *Example* -Both DPS pick the heroes they want(2) -Both Supports pick their heroes(2) -tank pick the hero for either synergy or to have an answer for what the other team picked(1) *next the ban stage with limits. Up to 2 tanks can be banned from either team. Up to 3 dps can be banned from either team. Up to 3 supports can be banned from either team* -tank picks one unselected hero they want to be banned from any role on the opposing team(-1) -Both DPS pick a hero they want to be banned from either role on the opposing team. If both DPS choose a different hero to ban, this will become a 50/50 on which hero gets banned(-1) Both supports pick a hero to ban from either role on the opposing team. This will also become a 50/50 if both supports pick a different hero(-1) *Next pick stage* similar to the first pick stage but this time supports pick first. -Both Supports pick the heroes they would like to play adding up to(4) support heroes in play so far. -Both DPS pick the heroes they would like to play, adding up to(4)DPS heroes in play so far. -Tank pick the hero they would to play adding up to(2) Tanks in play so far. *Next, 2nd and final ban stage* -Both Supports pick one hero they would like to ban from either role adding up to (-3) -Both DPS pick one hero they would like to ban from either role adding up to(-3) -Tank picks one hero they would like to ban adding up to(-2) *Next stage* Final pick stage -Tank picks 2 heroes they would like to play, adding up to(4) Tanks in play -DPS pick one hero they would like to play. If both players choose a different hero, it becomes a 50/50 on which hero can be played, adding up to(5) DPS heroes in play. -Supports pick one hero they would like to play. If both players choose different heroes, it becomes a 50/50 on which hero can be played, adding up to(5) supports in play. After each round, the process will resets and is done again. Banned heroes from the previous round will become unbanned and unable to be banned until the next round. This entire process will strategically encourage players to decide if they want to play towards their team’s strengths or the opposing team’s weaknesses without having all the answers. Between rounds, you’ll be able to adjust that strategy. Choose carefully on who you ban and who you pick to play
I honestly think that a minimap that’s exclusive to tanks that doesn’t just show your allies but your enemies as well would be really cool and gives tanks a unique tactical advantage to help the low to mid-tier tank players play the game effectively and the high to pro-tier players not get detonated by misjudging where someone was
OK here's how you fix thomas the tank: 1: split support into hard and hybrid. Dont split the queue, yet, but allow only one per type Hybrid support is capable of DPS and multi target healing. Think Lucio, Brog, Mercy (yes mercy) Hard support is capable of enabling tanks better. Think Ana, Bap. 2: Tank passive: Gain damage resistance equal to half your current health percentage, plus 20%. (at 1hp you have 20% resistance, at max you have 70%) Amplify incoming healing by the same value. 3: Release a support overhaul that A: reduces healing across the board by about 50%. and B: forces support characters to be more in line with their roles. Some heroes like lucio probably don't even need changes, but some will need sweeping changes. Throwing Sym back into support is possible here, just give her back shield generator, a repair-pack like ability but for shield, and perk that shielded allies recover health when their shield takes damage. 3: Release a ton of support heroes. There needs to be options so you can lean into the concept The expected result: Tanks are monoliths but focusing them will yield great rewards. Fights will snowball instead of locking up and it will take skill to turn it around, but it's quite possible. Regrouping instead of all dying will become viable if your tank can escape. Essentially, the game pivots from being DPS focused to being tank-focused, without changing the interactions between DPS per-team. and support per-team. Obviously tanks will need SOME changes. Orisa stands out as a good tank because she can temporarily reverse the effects of a snowball, replacing her lost nartural resistance using fortify. Hog fits well into the same catagory. Rein's shield buys time for the same process to occur. Ball might need to be reworked into a DPS. (Tank-type DPS with higher HP might be fun? Investigation required.)
- Tank is the most important role. Theirfore you need to be playing at your best, to even be able to win. (But if you're exceptionally good you're still at the mercy of the rest of your teammates skill) - The value of counterswapping the tank is very high because of how important the tank is. - Counterswapping will always exist, because there is only one tank, and every tank has a counter the other tank can chose. (Because the nature of the game's asymmetrical characters) - The solution to fix 5v5 is to make the tanks value to be great enough to carry games on their own skill, while being immune to the need to swap if they're fighting a bad match up. (Which is basically impossible.) - Or you can add a second tank so you have two characters that need to be counterswapped. (which is inherently harder to do.) And this is all ignoring actual parts of gameplay that would effect a tank such as the CCs like, Stuns, Purples, Discirds, and focus fire. (Which would be reduced by having a second tank.) Edit: I'm not making this to be constructive, I'm making this because I think the balance of this game is atrocious and I need to vent.
i agree with the cc/ability 30% reduction for sure (nade, non-ult hard cc, damage, boops, etc.) but i also wonder if buffs and changes on armour would help. like you said, beta rein had more armour % than health and i think it could make a huge difference in the tanks exploding issue, especially if they give tanks more armour and add in some buffs, even make some changes so maybe tank-busters like bastion and reaper struggle more against armour than they do rn. then maybe make it so headshots have a reduced impact on tank to combat their massive hitboxes, and adjust the audio to be less rewarding against tanks and maybe you have something that works. i don't play tank and maybe this would be overtuned or maybe it'd be useless! but i'd love to see how something like that plays out. i feel like it'd put the other tanks on a similar playing field as orisa (who honestly would likely need to be nerfed if armour is buffed) without affecting their character identities/homogenizing every tank!
Ultimately i think one of the biggest issues with tank is how the game doesn't actually reward the player to do their job right, compared to the other roles. To fix that i would lean more into the identity of the tank role, i.e. creating / holding space and being a threat. The changes would be as follows: 1. Tanks now gain ult charge from mitigating dmg - this change would reward tank players for protecting themself and their team - of course some tanks benefit from this more than others and each tanks ult cost would be incriesed accordingly 2. Decreased negative effects duration - this would include effects such as antinade, dps passive and stuns - i would imagine it to be added to the existing passive and be at least around 50% - since tanks purpose is to be the front of the team i don't believe they should be the most vulnerable targets to these effects - if this change feels too strong, the effect can be changed to be lost when under 40% Hp to allow counterplay 3. Complete CC immunity when nearly full HP - inspired by the tweet in the video - i believe this would be a great way to increase the threat that tanks pose without incriesing their raw numbers - it functions like a great initiating tool but would be hard to keep the effect up during prolonged fights Overall these changes would only be for the tank role in general and if they were implemented i'd expect each tank to be separately rebalanced around them.
I’ve been playing comp pretty consistently for almost a year now (Ive played ow since 2019 but very sporadically and quick play only). This season I was able to climb my dps and support from plat to diamond pretty easily, but my tank has dropped from plat 1 to plat 5 (partly cause I mostly solo queue). Tank has been horrible this season. Genuinely hate playing tank. Constantly switching to counter the other tank and even if you completely outplay the other team’s tank it doesn’t matter if the other team has better dps, which frequently happens. It’s so frustrating. In the past I felt like I could dominate as tank, I could carry the whole team but now it’s the complete opposite. Honestly I enjoyed the feel of the game more when there were two tanks and maybe they should try bringing it back.
Let tank choose one of several bots at spawn. They fly with the tank and all have different buffs, like damage mitigation, or anti-cc, or a minimap functionality. Give the bots a good chunk of health and armor. Once destroyed, no more buffs. Allows for counterplay to enemy team by selecting the correct bot for the current situation. Gives you a mini 6v6 since there is an extra target to shoot. Offers more survivability to the tank without getting exploded and offers different types of play. You can make it so that you have a pool of 3 bots for the entire match and you can take the same one each time, or a different one each time. Also tbh makes the tankroll way more fun to play by giving an extra mechanic. Gives the devs an oportunity to make creative cool little robot droids with their own personality and voicelines and the freedom to go more all out with new tanks since you can mitigate weaknesses through these bots. Anyway, it just seems fun. :)
I wonder if a tank improvement could be to give tanks something like an Overwatch version of ‘Adaptation’ from Warframe. In that game, if you’re hit with say, a weapon that deals Heat damage, you’ll gain 10% resistance to Heat damage for like, 30 seconds. Every additional instance of Heat damage refreshes that resistance timer, as well as adds an additional 10% resistance to that damage type. If a player is slammed with enough Heat damage, they’ll eventually gain up to 90% damage reduction to that specific damage type. Maybe something similar could be implemented for tanks in this game. Except it’s like, 5% resistance per hero, not just damage, but gradual resistance toward a specific enemy hero in their entirety, and caps at like, 60%. So that way if someone is spamming damage at a tank, eventually that attacker’s damage will be cut down to less than half of what they were originally dealing.
How about making some sup and dps heroes lean into an 'off-tank' role imbracing a hybrid playstyle. This will relive some pressure from the tank to be the only Frontline. We know some lower damage dps and low healing supports exist and are loved. For example, remove Mei secondary fire and give her a close range/ defensive ability instead or reduce brig passive and e range but make her tankier. In many games, teams having varying levels of possible tankiness is crucial
Create unique mitigation passive for each tank. Ex. Rein, Ignition Armor: doing damage with the following abilities grant damage reduction of 45% for 4 seconds: Fire strike, Hammer, Shatter. Zarya: Laser armor: dependent on charge: 0-20% damage mitigation Junkerqueen: adrenaline boost: damage reduction of 60% when health hits under 50% health for 10 seconds, “resets after heals to 75% health” Last one Orisa: since she’s a tank tank: just give her this: Javelin Booster: after using a javelin ability and while outside of fortify/ult, gain dmg reduction for 30% for 2 seconds
Give tanks a new passive Willpower: at low HP, gain 1 or more of the following bonuses (depending on the tank, and how balance testing turns out) 1. gain movement and attack speed 2. Reduce cooldowns (of some abilities, but not including abilities that generate health) 3. Decrease damage taken 4. Reduce CC time 5. Increase damage output This would require a lot of testing and fine tuning - for example I don’t think Orisa should ever have low cooldown fortify, and no tank should gain all of these. But a higher move speed and attack speed Rein that takes less damage would make him more fun and more threatening. The idea would be to assign each tank one or a combination of these bonuses that makes them a) less killable b) more threatening or c) more fun (ex if I’m gonna explode as Sigma, at least I can throw my rock more frequently) I don’t know what the health threshold should be, but 50% could be a good place to start and adjust from there (could also provide a balance slider by giving meta tanks a lower threshold and non-meta tanks a higher threshold). Another possibility is having the bonuses scale with HP (ex. as my health goes down, cc and incoming damage goes down)
I think they need to lean into tanks being more cc and setups for their damagers. Tanks should be the main class that gets cc, this will incentivize more team plays. They should not be able to do a lot of damage at all but to compensate they take less damage. Maybe get rid of armor for tanks and just have them have a 15-25% flat damage reduction. This will allow tanks to still 1v1 based on sustain but they have to work more like a game manager. I understand this doesn’t really work for tanks like Doom or Junker Queen but they could be labeled between offensive tanks and defensive tanks and get a different buff like faster movement speed and/or smaller hit boxes
I think we should introduce a global TANK resource based cooldown. Which allows you to ignore CC for maybe one second upon use. BUT it only recharges when youre close to the enemy team (I think the enemy tank should be an exception to the recharge). This way close ranged tanks like Rein/Ramm, are incentivised to engage and can do so without worrying about being bombarded with CC cooldowns. There would have to be a bunch of niche differences between the tanks with this cd, as I think itd also just enable orisa to just play way too aggressively and act as a second gold. But, with it being a resource cooldown maybe it could charge up or charge down depending on how many cooldowns you use as a tank. This would prevent tanks like orisa or doomfist from constantly getting this new cooldown from just naturally recycling through their cooldowns. While also letting characters like Rein or Ramm to benefit from this because their CDs are more committment heavy or have longer cooldowns.
main thing i would say is that it would need to be an ability resistance. every ability might be able to keep the same intensity on an ability. (same damage/DPS/debuff) but make the effect either cause like 70% knockback resist and 50% effect duration. like as tank ash dynamite really fucks you because the dps passive lasts way longer. the dynamite would only burn for half duration and the dps passive would only last 1 second. you still get value for targeting a tank but the tank has a lot more room for counterplay
When you’re playing support and there’s a critical ally off your screen add a little red arrow marker pointing in the direction the critical ally is in. Probably won’t help high ranks but
To fix tanks, you have to think about their main role that they wanna fulfill: space-making. How do we focus on that? Well, that comes in two ways. One, disruption. Two, soaking damage. With that in mind, some tanks already have cc immunity, so if we just give that to tanks that don’t already have it, that would just disproportionately balance the tank role and (more likely than not) favor those who didn’t already have it. Cc resistance, though, is something that can be pushed a bit further. They already have a bit of knockback resistance, but what if they went a bit further as to reduce debuff effectiveness on tanks by 50%? Anti-nade, being a good example. Right now, it completely shuts down some tanks. Roadhog? JQ? Mauga? They’d prolly be dumpstered with that applied. Having it instead cut heals by 50% would severely cripple their presence, but wouldn’t outright kill their kit. It would put them at a severe disadvantage, but there would at least be some counterplay against that, and people who cleanse debuff would not be prioritized nearly as much, and would only serve niche roles. If you wanted to encourage team play, you could include that additively with the dps passive (for 65% total heal cut at this point I think it’d be?). This would also of course factor into the various types of hard cc too, like sleep, shatter, hinder, yadda yadda yadda. Not immune to it, and the cc still has impact, but much less than if you were to use it on more priority targets. With the secondary goal in mind, the tank should also be able to soak up damage. But right now, with most tanks being shred down instantly with their big damage reduction cooldown or shield broken, then they can’t fulfill that role properly. I don’t think it’d be a bad idea to add a sort of one-shot protection to this game for tanks (got this idea from Risk of Rain 2). This wouldn’t have a major impact on the majority of fights considering 90% of damage sources couldn’t even touch that, but in certain cases (Dva bomb, junkrat tire, etc.), it could be the difference between having that last bit of disruption for space-making without making it too oppressive. And this isn’t to say they’d be invulnerable to damage at 100%, no. More, treat it as a pseudo bap lamp, where tanks can’t take more than 90% of their health in one hit (of course numbers subject to change, but you get the idea). At the very least, I think the first idea has some sort of merit. The second might be worth considering if idea #1 wouldn’t be enough. Thoughts would be nice. And who knows? I might be talkin out my ass. But that’s what the comments section is for, amirite?
All tanks need their mitigation/heal/shield to live like rein shield orisa fort hog heal dva matrix doom/ram block bubble etc but having that as 1 or 2 of their 3-4 abilities means they have 1/2 or 3/4s as much fun as the other roles where all 4 of their buttons are fun and add to their theme. So make those mitigation abilities a passive like sombra fade that auto-activates, then get rid of all the self cc, movement lockout, and self slowdown on their abilities like dva guns rein shield rein ult rein charge etc and you give them all an extra 1 or 2 abilities since you have open slots now where the mitigation ones were and with more abilities you get more fun. Also with the tank part of tanks a passive ability they can be more unique since instead of every tank having the same generic orisa/hog fortify or sig/rein/ram shield or doom/ram block or dva/orisa defense matrix they have 1 or 2 new different unique abilities in those ability slots that could further the theme of the characters. With up to 2 more abilities the fun ceiling of tanks could be increased by up to 2 times for characters like orisa who has 2 out of 4 abilities there just to survive maybe even 3 if you count her ult. It is currently like if the DPS all had to have their left click or right click and sometimes both on an ability slot you'd get rid of alot of the fun of every dps character like which echo/ana/kiri/sojourn ability gets removed to allow them to barely fulfil their roles? and then are they as fun? no of course not but tanks have to have theirs on up to 2 ability slots? It also would help if there wasn't sombra's hack which just subtracts other characters' abilities at the same time as tanks already have basically half the # of abilities of the rest of the characters. Also being melee when you're slower or equal movement to the enemies is not a good experience and is why rein melee could be alot more fun and why genji/brig melee is alot more fun and also their shield/deflect is unique and adds to their character while rein's is just another tank shield. Even jq has more meaningful melee gameplay with her pull/movespeed buff giving effectively much more movement even though she also gets a shotgun. If Orisa was melee she would probably be just a better rein. She has much more control in her movement on e, fortify, spear instead of fire strike, and a much better version of slam on ult. But she also gets a gun. Where is the balancing for the melee design of reinhardt? They just ended up putting all the eggs in fire strike which is why there are 2 charges that go through shields on a low cooldown because basically it is the only rein ability where the fun doesn't come with a whole bunch of drawbacks and maybe you want trade-offs but those trade-offs should emerge from the gameplay not from just making the ability have a -10% movespeed value in code somewhere. Like for other characters if you use their ability in the wrong scenarios or you use an ability too soon or too often and its not ready when you need it but rein just has to take 400 damage to use charge take 20% more damage for holding shield take 200 damage for slam holding you still and you still aren't on top of the enemies in a position to use melee unless you got lucky with the slam or pin and the enemies didnt just hold lmb on you the entire time. Also if his shield was a passive abliity you could make it activate while using slam or charge which could help with those scenarios if they really want the self stun locks to be his identity.
I believe (as a tank main myself) that tanks can be fixed (or atleast go in a positive direction) by clearly defining their role. What i think about tank is the one who can take alot of damage and create opportunity (like space) for other roles to make their play. These can be done through 3 (or maybe more later on) types on hero design (mutually exclusive): 1) focusing on increased health bar (mostly for hog) and reduced damage. 2) focusing on amping up damage mitigation abilities and reduced damage (probably least damage done amongst all heroes). 3) high mobility and medium damage and lesser health bar. Most important thing in first 2 design choices is that tank shouldn't be instant killable until all team members focus him down. And that doesn't mean amp up tanks damage. These designs align with the above definition. Considering these 3 design choices, mauga and orisa (from ow2) are certainly bad designs: they survive for long and do higher damage. Ramatra also falls somewhat in this odd design. High poke damage shouldn't be a tank thing, it's for the dps. That's the main reason i liked ow1 orisa more. Cause she played a tank role. Some tweaks were needed but not a complete rework. Hog should have the highest hp bar ever existed. And not that his breather should be buffed. That way if not managed properly hog will not be able to keep his hp full. He may have hook shot kill combo but with much higher cooldown. Many things can be defined and tweaked around these 3 hero design templates i just discussed little bit to give an idea.
Changing the hit sounds of shooting a tank to something irritating like nails on a chalkboard is hilarious
Id like to see the sound change depending on how much damage reduction is in effect. Like if you are shooting armour health it makes the dink more like a donk and the normal shots lower pitched as well. And if you are shooting into a ram block or fortify then it makes a super low pitched hit sound. maybe even change the hit indicator to a red colour or something. Let new players really know that this is not working that well and encourage them to seek targets which their shots are more effective.
And yet, it might actually work!
They should give us OG CoD hitmarkers lmao dud, ddddduudddd
This is an excellent take the psychology involved in OW sound design is better than any game I’ve played. The satisfaction from hit markers or when you secure an elim is insane, so much dopamine.
@@milamber319similar to doomfists block and the thud that it makes when you shoot it, or kinetic grasp, DVA DM, any denial ability has really good sound to incentivize restraint
Twitter: TITTIES
Flats: AHHH
Most mature OW streamer
@@ReedoTVthere’s still time to delete this he literally explains why he said that
@@AdamSlander888 when did flats do this?
@@ironbatty25931:49
@@AdamSlander888 bless
23:25 "How do you fix tank without going back to 6v6? Just fix them lmao"
Most nuanced OW2 take
Most constructive OW2 take
most descriptive 5v5 supporter
@@bruhbruh7660 the smartest 6v6 fan:
@@jackeea_I come from Olexa and never expected to see you here
It's crazy how they need to keep pumping stats into tank and make them practically invincible because it's only one tank and the whole team relies on them and the whole enemy team focuses them. Problem is that it will make it so you will NEED your tank to protect you from the enemy tank or they'll stop you because they're unkillable and resistant to everything you can throw at them.
People dont realize that THIS is the problem now. It is the reason why no one can figure out a solution because they don't realize what the real problem is.
Nerf tanks and they will be more fun to play. Its so counter-intuitive that everyone dismisses it. Its also the reason why the solution seems impossible without 6v6. But 6v6 naturally comes with nerfed tanks.
You can nerf tanks without going back to 6v6 and all the problems that came with 6v6
@@puck2694That does sound like the best solution for 5v5 but personally 6v6 seems like it has more potential overall.
as a doomfist main i can confirm tank dosen't exist and every game is played with 3 dps and i'm still stuck in overwacth 1
If only we were still on the dps role
Mauga needs to be a DPS. It would fix everything.
Can I be honest I was thinking this the other day, why can’t he be in both. Like why can’t we have a dps doom that has different abilities and is balanced for the damage roll, and tank doom that’s balance for the tank roll. Basically have them act like seperate hero’s but with different kits. I know the real reason is that it just would look weird, but it would be fine over time. It honestly just be another hero to pick from. I never play doomfist but just thought this the other day.
Tbh as a Doomfist main as well, you can't really play the tank role like the rest. Nothing in your kit benefits your teammates, your value comes from causing as much disruption as possible. So playing as a DPS is pretty much how you have to play him.
@@Crusty_Sword Doom is pretty much still dps, if you cannot deal damage as doom you are basically useless... While other tanks can still be much more useful than doom while not doing damage.
For anyone that thinks they should punish counterswapping, the issue arises when you start the match and the matchup is atrocious, like a rein switching bc the enemy started as ram, and then you just punish the rein bc he doesn't want to fight a hard counter. And if you say "well what if you allow 1 swap before a punishment" then the enemy Ram will just use his 1 swap to swap to the counter of whatever the Rein swapped into, and you're back to square 1. You'd turn overwatch into a game of "who's lucky enough to get the better tank when first choosing your heroes" and you'll soon realize that's far worse than where we are now
Okay but over watch is the only game where you can change your character mid match. I feel like this is an inherent issue with the game Balance.
@@itsmefirefox so you’d condemn players to an intentionally harder game if the other team happens to pick all your team’s counters? Making Overwatch luck based isn’t a great idea. Imagine you can’t swap, and you pick doomfist, just to find out the enemy team went roadhog sombra and mccree. You’re cooked, and it’s not even a fault of skill at that point, you would just lose based on luck
@@360noahscope i feel ult charge should go back to 0
@@itsmefirefox If you couldn't swap heroes mid match then some heroes would literally just be useless. On Winston maps (Like Watchpoint: Gibraltar or Numbani) you would just use Dva because it is safer to pick Dva than play Winston due to the enemy possibly having Dva. Or Imagine stuck into playing Rein/Winston into Bastion. Stuck playing Hog/Mauga into Ana and Zen. Stuck playing Dva into Zarya etc.
@@bluedragon2that won't solve it
This is a wild one that I thought of the other day- let damage mitigation as a stat charge your ult. It's like... not big and could be braindead, but my thought is that each role has a stat that increases their ult. DPS doing damage get ult faster to then do more damage with their ult (mostly), Supports healing get ult faster to then do more healing with their ult (also mostly), but Tanks dont have anything that's in the role's niche that contributes to ult charge. Along that same thought then, tanks don't have an engaging incentive other than "that's your job, shut up and do it."
Other roles get to have fun while charging their ults, tanks have a miserable time being the damage sponge and the largest targets on the field. On top of that, a lot of the time as a tank you're going to be shooting at/denying space to the other tank... which gives you 20% less ult charge. If you give more ults on the tank role by adding damage mitigating as a stat that contributes to tult charge, it just might make their roles more engaging and fun to play.
Mitigation contributes to ult charge
Not that it's fun, but it is in the roles niche and charges ult
@@bennettnez4711 mit does not build ult charge, it gives you a little bit of fire but not ult charge
This is an actual idea.
@MegaScytheman idk what's more stupid now. Me for not knowing that, or the fact that mit doesn't build ult charge. I realize that different tanks have different amounts of mitigation, but there are ways around that.
Tank passive called "Stalwart Defender:" a stackable passive buff that reduces the damage taken by 5% for 2 seconds after taking damage from more then 1 enemy.
For example 1 person shooting the tank has 0% reduction, but if 2+ people damage the tank then 5% damage reduction, and for each new enemy damaging the tank it adds another stack. The stacks can fall off independently I.E. if 5 heroes shoot at the tank at the same time then the buff stacks up 4 times, but then 3 heroes switch to different targets, but 2 are still shooting at the tank, then after 2 seconds the buff would drop to 1 stack. This would ideally discourage full focusing the tank, and encourage a single hero to work the tank down slowly, and calling for a focus to secure the kill when the tank is low, ideally preventing from melting.
encourages tanks just jumping into random groups of people. also is a buff to doom and wrecking ball
Exactly, that would fix the tank melting experience where tanks can actually live longer then 3 seconds after jumping into combat, sure it’s a buff but that’s what I feel tank needs now
I think you're onto something with the resistance passive. Right now tanks have 30% knockback resistance, but knockback is such a small part of negative effects. You should also give a 30% drop to stun duration, knockdown duration, freeze hack sleep. But I don't think it should stop there. In lieu of flat damage resistance, I think they should take 30% less critical damage (1.7x instead of 2x).
Once you have something like this across the whole tank role, you can start targeted balance adjustments to make the tanks less generalist and more unique.
yeah that does seem pretty good, then getting chain cc'd to death would be kind of hard to pull off compared to how it is now
That sounds like another wall (Mauga) meta waiting to happen
The tank passive should work with every status effect in the game. Every CC, every negative effect like nade, Knockback of any kind. However I don't agree with the damage one.
I've had this opinion for years
I don't agree with everything. Things like Hook, Rooted, Gravity etc. kind of break if you change their impact.
My thought process for the critical resistance is that it simultaneously covers some problem areas while also making opportunities in others. It stops Widow from 2-tapping most tanks without having to make her unplayable. It means you can more freely take the critical immunity away from Orisa. It allows you to take some of the flat DR away from characters like Hog and Mauga who get melted without it. Ultimately I just think it opens up more positives for balance than negatives.
One little tweak I've always wanted is, depending on the role, it would be nice to hear different sounds when a teammate gets killed. It'd also be cool if the hero could say a voice line when there are no healers, tanks, or dps around. Sound is just as important as the UI.
im not 100% sure, but isnt there a setting that plays a sound when teammates die?
@@wordenit9351i think they mean a diff sound depending on the role of the person killed
Idk about the different sounds bc that would just get confusing for people who aren’t familiar with it(maybe as an option) but that voice line sounds like a good idea, I only know that when u are down 2 people , one of ur teammates will say something about being overrun or something like that
The characters of your team already have voice lines for when you're outnumbered and when you ask for healing when there's no healers you ask for help, the game even tells you you have no healers close, what more do people need to pay attention to their surroundings?
Maybe just me but I find the sfx in this game pretty good (except Venture’s burrow needs to be Reaper levels of loud.)
I generally think its not possible to fix tanks in 5vs5 UNLESS you give tanks kit everything so counter picking isnt even a option
There is. Tank has no counter play... to other roles. It's tank vs tank. And dps can counter tank. Healers can counter tanks. But you don't go "this tank" to counter bap/ana/mei/widow. It's up to dps and healer to counter other dps, healers, and tank
@@SuperLifestream see they can't do that anytime a tank counters a dps or support people get extremely mad.
that sounds incredibly fucking boring, if people are that bored theyll stop playing tank and the queue times will continue to get worse, essentially not really fixing anything
@@SuperLifestream its funny because against that comp winston would go very well.
@@CROSSFADE69 bingo, that's what happened in the start of ow2 and people were complaining, even now they still are
I think the audio difference when u hit a tank is a rlly good a idea to start. The psychological part of getting the dopamine when u hit a tank is a lot more important than some might think.
It’s literally why I was never a “shoot the horse” dps because she’s a dopamine remover
Giga buff Tanks passive.
Give them a cc reducción IN GENERAL.
Slows, pulls, burning effects, stuns, etc.
Except for ults effects.
That's it.
Make the game even more like paladins lmao
I think they should nerf the tanks drop the HP to 300 or 400.
@@Grux_ASG What?
@@Grux_ASG you on crack?
I've been saying this since s2 besides the burning effect. It should only be cc
Hamster definitely getting a de-mech/re-mech mechanics
That would be funny seeing a ball less ball lol
@@katser5023 he pops out in either a mini mech or with a mini machine gun XD
@@crisdelgadillo6502 and goes full fkng Rambo
@@mr.excidium8054 EXACTLY
Can you eat him to get health back and he goes back to spawn?
Jake just wants to play Cod, Samito wants OverWatch
Jake does not deserve an opinion on the 6v6 5v5 debate. In his interview with Iron he straight up said that he doesn't care about tank players.
yea screw jake💀💀
Jake Overwatch is in my house
@@Georgian502 HUH?! Aint no way he said that 😭
@@le_m4cho965yes he said it. He just wants a dps cod. No moba or combo aspects. Just pew pew checkers. Not chess
Ive got two idea that can greatly help tanks, just because surviving is so tough.
1. Tanks either take reduced crits or they dont take crits. This will instantly avoid meta mauga because he can't just spray down the tank, and it actually lets tanks help the team if your on a sniper map. The tank can take a few hits while the rest of the team can be one shot so a sig for instance could let his team keep his shield until the widow is forced away.
2. A kind of rage mechanic which only the tank role can get. At about 30-35% of hp tanks will take like 15-20% reduced damage, and be resistant to CC even more, like taking almost no knockback. To keep this fair the dmg reduction can't stack on anything with things like take a breather only going to their natural state, this would also avoid orisa popping fortify with it. Certain tanks can also have slight variations like maybe rein has an adrenaline boost and he gets an increased walking speed, queen increases ult charge slightly, and other things that make those specific tanks have a high risk high reward scenario, afterall they are at very low health.
Just things i thought would fit the idea of a tank
I really liked the 1 because you could know precisely how many hits you could take. Right now, it's really fast to die from a Torb/Reaper headshot with Winston. I've died so many times by jumping => taking 5 headshots => going back to spawn without even having the time to use my ult.
@@hypadao235 yeah those headshots are rough, ive had game where he's just more oppressive than the tank just because we couldn't enter an area without get destroyed by his head shots and turret together. I'd say his overclock really needs to be changed the most though, torb literally gets more health than 4 tanks in open queue games iirc using that cooldown and his attack rate just gets gross with it
THis only works if you also do what spilo suggested which is make it less satisfying to shoot tanks. Like you also need to make the *tink* discordant to make sure players understand that their damage is reduced and they are not getting value. I really like the idea of the dink gets lower pitched the more damage reduced it is. So if you are shooting into armour health it gives you a hint that your shots arent as effective and if you are shooting fortify or ram block its super low pitched to let you know that its basically doing nothing.
@@milamber319 the idea of the pitch lowering as you damage us reduced/on a tank is a pretty good. It'd also make the passive feel stronger than it realistically is so a dps or support would likely try avoiding the tank in this scenario.
Mainly wasnt thinking about that because it was already a good idea
Being plinked in the head by a hanzo and cassidy really sucks without a super high health pool, i like the idea of reduced crits, but its a slippery slope because orisa would die less and so would hog
I think we need to get rid of the ult carry over passive; it makes counter swapping even better of an option than it should be. Even if you think counter swapping is a core part of overwatch, you can't deny that the strain on ult economy kept it in check. along with that, I'd giga-mega-buff tank ultimates (while increasing their cost a too), together without ult carry over I think this would help bring in the counter swapping issue. Now a days ult combos are so much more important that individual ults. So then if the average ults can be described as the number 1, i'd buff tanks to generally be 1.5. A total game changer, and something you'd feel the impact of wasting by counter swapping. It'd be something to make tanks feel strong without them just stomping on the opposition.
There needs to be a change in direction of buffs too. The age of a tank just eating damage to take space are gone, it seems we're already seeing a shift personally, but I need full throtle on the idea that tanks be balanced around their ability to manipulate interactions between their team and the enemy. Roles are based off designed interactions, and before tanks had a balance of interacting with the enviorment and disrupting interaction between the enemy and your team, with taking space taking a far back seat, more characters like Zarya need to pop up, and existing ones should take a page out of her book. Her value is directly tied to how well she disrupts the enemy teams ability to interact with her team. I think this is the new direction, and and example of how they could implement this change to a couple of tanks would be to lower the duration of JQ shout, but give it a shorter cooldown, therefore you can use it like twice a fight more convincingly for pushes. I'd make Ram's ravenous vortex all around better (and increase the cooldown), because then it'd create this intense contrast between using it defensively against mobile heros, hampering their assault, or offensively, calling out out of position enemies. This should be the direction tanks take in overwatch 2, the saving grace of 6 v 6 for the tank role was that you took turns being a fucking punching bag, 6 v 6 wont save you, it'll just make you hate your other tank for not swapping in to cover damage.
I had an idea, but I watched this first, and went through some of the tweets, so here is my revised "How To Make Tank Fun Again in three changes" (based on points that actually made sense)
1. Minimap. I wasn't a big fan either, but really the information buff is going to help people soooo much.
2. Additional tank passive: x% damage mitigation. In lieu of this; Tanks that RELY on mitigation abilities have them taken away for more team centric abilities eg Dooms power block gets taken away and instead he does like a ground punch that gives everyone in a radius around him like... 50 shield health for x seconds... etc
3. Armor. This step has layers so let me cook;
First: Nerf armor to have like 15% dmg mitigation. (you'll see why)
Second: Change the tank passive to add additional armor instead of additional health for tanks
Third: Add COMPLETE CC IMMUNITY AS LONG AS YOU ARE HITTING ARMOR
Fourth: Dull audio like hitting wood as long as you are hitting armor (crits sound dull too)
I think this way, balancing armor will be more of a per-case basis than a blanket change.
What do you think?
Actually really good takes
Minimap is the best solution
I had a long ass paragraph written I clicked out and lost it I don't have it in me to do it again...
But yes. Minimal.
NOT JUST a minimal.
I also want to pause or press select or whatever. I want a full screen map
1. Really just QOL, but good
2. Tank should definitely have that passive, and it would make them not need as much health overall/not take as long for supps to heal. You have to be careful with the team ability changes though.
3. Yes. No CC due to armor just makes sense, they can tweak the numbers as needed then
Glad to see guys mostly agree. Awesome.
Honestly the best short term solution: all tank mains stand in solidarity and always mirror, and never counter swap.
It literally doesn’t make sense to have 1 character that fills the entire role of being a tank in this kind of game
Let me get a QP hacked where DPS becomes the solo role. That would be such a wake up call I think.
fantastic way to have 40 hour queue times
@@Beaeaeaedsfdsfdshit, back in ow1 my mid plat dps queues were already 20+ min cuz nobody wanted to play support or tank.
@@Beaeaeaedsfdsfddoesn't matter because it only applies for a weekend in role q quickplay and not the other modes
@@Beaeaeaedsfdsfd That's the point. Its shock therapy to everyone who doesn't want 6 v 6 back.
Yeah i agree@@Warcrafter4
Hear me out:
No hero bans, but rather hero pool selection.
You select 2-3 heroes you could play in a game at the beginning.
Ult charge for tanks is used for 2 things:
1) Using your ult
2) Swapping to another hero in your pool in realtime like a tag team mechanic
Maybe Winston dives in and tags your Rein out (kind of like how BOB flys in/out). Maybe there’s a window where your tank is out of the fight.
Also, reduce CC and/or the efficacy of CDs on tanks.
Don’t know if this could also be applied to other roles too.
Wouldn’t make you feel bad if your hero got banned as it’s additive, rather than subtractive. Also, removes the “I see you are X tank, so I’m going Y tank.” Bc it may not be in your hero pool.
Would force players to actually learn how to play tanks in more situation rather than just giving up and swapping immediately - learning zilch.
I think the defining role for tanks should be the ability to break or hold choke points. I dont think they should be an ambiguous point presence or high hp dps.
My first change i would before anything else would be to reduce ult charge for all tanks by a significant amount. I think the fastest way to bring tanks away from counter picks is to reduce ult costs for tanks across the board. Tank ults are massive, and losing that should be the cost of switching in the mid fight. You could argue that lower ult charge will incentivize switch because you can build your ult fast, but with how tank ults lead to snowballing being the tank to ult first is a massive advantage.
My second change if the first wasn't enough would be to change the passive from a defensive oriented to an action oriented passive. Doomfists personal passive is a great example. If tanks are rewarded with sustain for making active plays instead being rewarded with sustain by virtue of being the tank, the game will feel better to learn.
If these still dont work to make tank more fun, my last change would to change armor health and give all tanks armor and remove armor from not tanks. I would change armor from damage reduction to cc immunity.
I miss having an off tank cuz it was like, this synergy, and the game just felt more tactical
Fixing tanks without 6v6 is like taking 1 of the tire of a car and asking " how to fix this car and get it running good WITHOUT the forth tire"
I've seen cars with 3 tires, but 1 sharp turn is all it takes for things to go sideways. 💀
@@absolute-xero7502 exactly
I literally made this exact same analogy.
@@DevonIsMad Blizzard retrofitted a Lambo into a Tuk-Tuk? lol
The Mini-map thing is iffy honestly I could see them adding the HP Display(PvE HUD) with distance and elevation markers next to it in a really condensed but understandable way. Something like [46.6m ^] to gage vague but meaningful information. I could only see Minimap working if it was like Warframes, mostly hollow and vague layout and dots with arrows above and below to show elevation so it doesnt get too messy.
Give tanks more abilities and take away some of their stats, tanks with forever be stat sticks until they have some of the flexibility two tanks gave in overwatch 1
i think a big problem for tank as someone who used to love playing tank in og overwatch is that almost all the tanks in the game are playing like what would be considered secondary tanks in ow1 for the simple fact that they lack any real area denial. we only have 2 shield heroes, dva has her matrix (for as fast as that drains), Ramatra's rings, and if you want to count hogs traps then sure but its not really threatening, Thats it. Doomfist, Junker Queen, Malga, and Winston lack any real area denial, their just beefy dps if anything. The Tank role should be defined by how the different tanks control space, if any role should be defined by cc it should be them and no one else. In exchange for killing power they get powerful cc that limits the opponent's options on how to proceed and fight on their terms, they should be the glue of the team.
I have an idea on how to make the horse less annoying. Reowork fortified to be a channeling ability that after 1 second you turn into something similar to old bastion turret but without the crazy damage. The idea is you would need to predict the ability like punch/pin/BOB/etc instead of reacting. To balance the loss of movement you instantly reset your heat bar and get 100% heat reduction while keeping the fortified effect. This allows you to block ultimate combos like shatter/firestrike/pin from rein and it also allows for a little experimental idea of increasing orisa’s hitbox when she does that to be even more of a wall.
rein buff is shield gets buffed by +100-150 for 30 sec after ult, and after shield breaks he gets +25-50 armor to make it so if his shield breaks he isn't useless
I think OW just needs to reevaluate what roles mean. I know barely anybody will read this, but I loved this game since it launched and I genuinely want to share my thoughts.
DPS - Straightforward. Deal damage. Always what it should be, always what it will be. A DPS's kit is built around maximizing damage and surviving in case said damage doesn't kill something in time.
Support - Ensure a team stays alive. Whether its debuffing/damaging an enemy or healing allies, buffing allies, cleansing debuffs, etc., support is a role intended to ensure that your team either kills the other team, or that your team outlasts the other team.
Tank - This is the conflicting topic, but there are two versions of this (in games where 1 tank is only necessary) that I've seen is successful:
1. Damage Mitigation. And there's a big difference between mitigation and a sponge. Damage sponge is standing there and absorbing everything. Not fun. But mitigation can be in multiple forms, whether it be attracting enemy attention for a short period of time, or even acting as a secondary support, giving a short stun to opponents to prevent a kill, or giving allies some sort of buff that allows your team to live just a little bit longer. This is the more practical tank, and the more common portrayal of tanks in game where you're not actively swinging a hammer or shooting a gun (auto battlers, or MMORPGs like FFXIV or WoW).
2. Space Makers. This version of tanks act as consistent bulky threats that move around a map and essentially "push" people out. These are tanks that have some sort of soft movement CC that prevent other players from either running away or changing focus to an ally. These tanks are fun because your role is to serve as an active threat, an attention mitigator if you will, versus damage mitigation.
The reason why tank is such a problem now is because OW originally was supposed to have BOTH versions of the role in the game. One tank acts as a damage mitigator, ensuring your team survives, especially during big ult exchanges. The other acts as an attention mitigator, becoming a priority threat if left unchecked.
OW2 tries to force both roles into 1, which is a huge issue, because no role should have to do all of that alone. Combining Damage Mitigation + Attention Mitigation = Damage Sponge, and Damage Sponge is the WORST version of the tank, because it means one person has to both grab attention AND make sure a team doesn't die, which is simply unrealistic.
The reason why people say 5v5 doesn't work for tank is because OW2 is still fundamentally the same game as 6v6 (hence the 1.5 jokes), you force two roles onto a tank when there was typically two roles. Support have two roles (which is explained in most OW support vids), and DPS's double character just means your team has enough damage.
My proposed changes for OW would be to change damage types, and create a game where we have 5 roles instead of simply 3. We already have support split into 2, which is pretty easy to do atm. But we should also get more damage types than simply "damage". Most 5v5 mobas with a major tank role have "physical/magic" splits, and its strange that while OW is an FPS, it's also still functionally a MOBA. Hey, I mean if we had physical vs. like laser damage (we have a ton of lasers lmao), it would at least give variety to what needs to be tanked. Instead of fixating on the 3 roles we have, we need to be aware that because there's imbalance in the roles now, we need to divide them further so that they ARE balanced (in which case, since 5 is a prime number, it only makes sense to now make 5 roles).
This is just an outward analysis and I have no clue what the devs will actually do. But at the very least, I wanted to add some thoughts to the conversation.
I mean there are technically multiple "roles" for dps it's just that to separate them would make more than 2 categories. Flyers, hitscan which can include snipers, tank busters, divers, area controllers which includes turret placers, and stallers; and many characters fit multiple roles. For example, a Cassidy can tank bust a Winston while being a hitscan; a Junkrat can stall with his trap while also being a tank buster; a Mei can act like a sudo sniper while also being a staller; Hanzo and Widow and are snipers and can control area, but Widow is also hitscan; a Reaper can dive someone but they're also a tank buster; Sym is a turret placer, but she also deals with tank (D.Va) and her ult is good for stalling enemy progression; etc... The reason that there are so many dps options is because dps has to fill out a lot of roles. Sometimes you need 2 hitscans because a good flyer can handle 1, sometimes you need 2 tank busters because of the enemy comp.
If that's not what you meant sorry, but what would your 5 role categories be?
Also while I never played ow1 I do agree with your points on tank and personally think 2 tanks would be better.
I do think that having more types of damage would be interesting, right now there's only splash, beam, and a bullet. 1 of those can avoid being deflected or absorbed and 1 of them just ignores it. Sym and echo are the only dps with beams and echo isn't really viable at a range close enough to someone who can absorb/deflect attacks. Having another option for a dps beam would be nice, idk what other damage type you could make though
@@crisdelgadillo6502 Heyo, in writing the comment I forgot about hit scan vs. projectile, but really it doesn’t change my thoughts on DPS. Besides characters like sombra and sym who have more of a “support” role than the rest of the dps, most dps do the same thing, which is, well, shoot things.
Compare this to main support and off support which are distinctly different roles and purposes, or main tank and off tank, which are also different roles and purposes. They do different jobs and have to learn the game differently (a good comparison would be flats vs emongg actually, since their playstyles represent main vs off respectively).
The reason why I suggest different damage types is because it would relieve offensive pressure without making a character incredibly strong. Sure the balancing would take ages, so I’m not sure how it would happen, but let me take a couple characters for example.
Mauga is a big one. He just does ludicrous amounts of damage and healing, and when he’s meta, his sole purpose is to rip apart the other tank.
Now, imagine if the damage of his right gun (a physical damage) was calculated separately from his left gun (a “special” damage), and each hero had different defensive reductions based on this damage. Suddenly his matchups would be less “I rip through you” and more “okay, I need to prioritize different targets based on game knowledge” which would contribute to “removing the dopamine effect from shooting tank” without making a tank feel like a damage sponge. You’re faced with a physically defensive tank, oh, use the left gun, poke a bit to get healing, and try to dive supports. You’re faced with a special tank, try to light em up as quickly as possible and rip through them.
My point is that it would make damage feel less oppressive. Instead of dying because of solely damage, you’ll realize it’s more simply that your character is less fit for the job.
While this might encourage counter swapping more, at the same time it also turns counter swapping into a skill itself, rather than just “tank matchups”, since now you’ll have to change the way you play tank against supports and vice versa (imagine being able to force bastion mains out because defensively you’re tanky against a physical damage, so they’d have to swap to someone like mei or sojourn who would likely do a different type of damage). Counter swapping is an integral identity of competitive OW, and I think if anything is kept, it should be, because it gives players agency to make last minute decisions that can turn a tide.
On new roles, it would probably go something like this:
- Tank
- ADC (or whatever term OW uses)
- DPS
- Debuff Support
- Healing Support (again, these names would probably change based on what OW wants)
ADC would be a mix of tanks that were more aggressive and squishy to begin with (tank characters like junkerqueen, hog, zarya or dps characters like reaper, bastion, mei) who have ways of tanking more damage than usual and act as “shoot first” characters, which is as the name implies, attack damage carry. They push forward deal an aggressive amount of damage, and die for it (ofc they’d be balanced respectively to fit the role more)
Debuff support would be your brig, sombra, sym, zen, hell, maybe even echo. Characters who mix damage and debuffs to give your team an advantage. Again, they would require rebalancing, but these would also be characters where they have some of the CC presence of tanks, but are squishier and sit in a backline doing other things as well, such as dealing damage or healing.
My last point is whether or not there’d be role queue. Frankly, I don’t know. Having 5 roles restricts the roster a tremendous amount, meaning slower queue times, as there’s more roles to queue for. But hey, I never said this idea was perfect, and there had to be a catch anyway.
Finally someone that mentions turning tanks into bullet sponges isn't really fun, it's already hard to kill a tank now and people want to give them more health and damage reduction? That'll just make the game in general feel even clunkier to play
GENIUS IDEA: TANKS START AT 0% ULT CHARGE WHEN THEY SWAP.
My take on this is not to buff numbers but to change how the role works. The best way to explain it is to make everyone have an ability or passive that works like the queen's command shout or Mauga's area. Something that helps the whole team like a real frontline.
Yup homogenize the role so no charters r unique. 6v6 is the way
This though process exactly, tanks need a new primary interaction after their job as meat shield, space taker was condemned with 6v6
Going along with this, is I think a good start to make the game more interesting IN GENERAL would be to give each hero a UNIQUE passive to who the hero is. Obviously this is a big ask right now, but I think having heroes that have unique passives would be a good step in improving the general health of the game overall. No other "MOBA" (not sure what else to classify OW as) has flat passives for each type of hero, instead each hero has unique passives that may have a good symbiotic effect with another hero whether it be passives working well together, or one hero having a passive that works well in conjunction with another heroes abilities. I think this would help not just tanks significantly, but also make the game more interesting to play.
In my opinion, having flat role passives is extremely boring. Why does a spray-and-pray hero like bastion or tracer share pretty much the same set of passives as widowmaker? Why does Mei share passive effect with sombra? Obviously some heroes already have a semi-unique passive but its never anything particularly interesting or game-changing.
This could also create room for tanks to have good passives that not only benefit their team, but also help them frontline better rather than just a flat, two-dimensional boring passive such as "cc less good on tank".
A good example of an ability that had kind of the same effect but wasnt a passive was torbjorns shields he could put on the ground for his team to pick up. It wasn't hugely overpowered, but gave torbjorn a very unique ability that allowed him to be more than just a "point and shoot/ place turret" hero. Doing something like this with other heroes in the game, and maybe even giving torbjorn back his shields would help with a lot of things the game struggles with today.
Afterthought:
- Honestly, I think adding abilities back like torbjorns shield packs could make the game more enjoyable for not just tanks but for everyone else. It would provide a nice defensive buff that wasn't permanent for people, which helps lessen the impact of the new DPS passive, and helps take some pressure off the tanks WITHOUT taking away from the tanks purpose.
@@mckookie2967exactly, it ruins tanks design because now every take has to be good at being a frontline
@@mckookie2967 6 v 6 isn't the way, it's not gonna stop counter switching, it's not gonna stop tanks from feeling like a designer punching bag, and if it doesn't do those 2 things they 6 v 6 isn't a better solution in the slightest. The real difference from overwatch 1 is that counter swapping used to balanced out by disrupting your teams ult economy, which just isn't as true anymore since you retain ult charge when you switch. That's the change they should revert.
I think the minimap idea is really good. This will also give another element for the design team to work with when designing heroes.
RIP, wanted this suggestion to get looked at didn't see he was doing this.
Firstly, reduce the strain on support resources by reducing the total health pool to restore and making tanks take less incoming damage.
- Reduce tanks health by 45-55% this way they are more like 300-400hp.
- Tanks will take 40% less damage meaning 100 damage is now only 60 damage.
Secondly, reduce the effect of "ALL" status effects by 40%. Below you'll see a list of what I mean by status effects. The purpose of this is to reduce the effectiveness of them since they are most likely to be dumped/utilized on the tank.
This ultimately means that enemies will gain less ultimate charge and their abilities won't have as much benefit to be used on the tank. The reduced hp is to compensate for the 40% damage reduction which effectively makes able to be health restored almost 2x faster and able to sustain when supported almost 2x easier. Where they will be "nerfed" slightly is the fact the they will have around 5-15% less effective hp so when fully unsupported they will die faster.
Most/All Tanks would likely need some # adjustments to compensate for the greater sustain and health changes.
Potential status effect / ability changes
[ANA] - Sleep Dart will only be 3 Seconds (Down from 3.5 seconds verse Tanks).
[ANA] - Anti Nade will stop 60% of Healing Received. (Down from 100%).
[ZEN] - Discord Orb’s increase on damage received is reduced to 18%. (Down from 30%).
[JUNKRAT] - Steel Trap stepping in will last 1.5 seconds. (Down from 2.5 seconds).
[SOMBRA] - Hack Ability lockout duration reduced to 0.9 seconds. (Down from 1.5 seconds).
[CASSIDY] - Magnetic Grenade slow effect reduced to -15% slow. (Down from -25% Slow).
[ASHE] - Dynamite burn duration reduced to 3 seconds. (Down from 5 seconds).
[WIDOWMAKER] - Venom Mine poison duration reduced to 3 seconds. (Down from 5 seconds).
[ROADHOG] - Chain Hook pull speed reduced to 24m/s. (Down from 40m/s).
[ROADHOG] - Pig Pen slow -40% slow → -24% slow
[JQ] Jagged Blade wound damage occurs over 1.8 seconds. (Down from 3 seconds).
[JQ] Carnage Wound Damage occurs over 1.8 seconds. (Down from 3 seconds).
[MEI] Endothermic blaster slow effect reduced to -18% slow. (Down from -30% slow).
[RAMATTRA] Ravenous Vortex slow effect reduced to -24% slow. (Down from -40% slow).
[MAUGA] - Incendiary Chaingun burn effect reduced to 1.8 seconds. (Down from 3 seconds).
[MAUGA] - Volatile Chaingun will now take 14 shots to cause critical. (Up from 10 shots).
[SYMMETRA] - Sentry Turret slow effect reduced to -9% slow. (Down from -15% slow).
[SIGMA] - Accretion reduced knockdown duration to 0.72 seconds. (Down from 1.2 seconds).
[DPS PASSIVE] - Reduced to 9% (Down from 15%).
Ah yes, make tanks feel better by cutting off half their total health
@@Midguardsormr Yep, but did you actually read what i wrote or just write a dumb response? The "40%" damage reduction must have went over your head because that would be broken if we didn't reduce their total health in relation. All that really happens is supports can heal them 2x faster and they don't explode while being healed as easily.
@@Midguardsormrit’s actually the same amount of effective health, but now the tank won’t have to feel so reliant on their support
So... uh, you're suggesting that fixing tank is essentially making every tank except Orisa extremly shit? Why?
@@MadMax55777 Can you elaborate why you think my suggestion suggests that? I rewrote it slightly and made it more descriptive if for some reason part of it made no sense in it's more simplified form.
Remove the dps heal debuff from applying to tanks
terraria ost goes hard
Building on the HUD idea/ general QOL stuff, having something similar to damage indicators showing the direction of your assailants, but for your team. So if your supports are getting jumped, you get a little indicator, similar to how supports can see critical health. Another thing is just more in-game voices. In Apex, characters will call out automatically when the team is spread too far apart, situational voice lines are often overlooked and can help a lot in low tiers.
I was actually thinking about this, making my own Overwatch 2 like game. First the roles would be renamed: Bosses, Bandits, Back-up.
Bosses work like big slow DPS that can spread out lots of damage, but might kill 1-2 people. The drawback is that they have a LONG cooldown. Like wait next fight kind of long. If they use that cooldown on the 1v1 thet will win, but maybe not have it during the team fight.
Bosses become less like a wall and more like a stop sign. They push, you stop, they retreat, you go.
As simple as possible fix? The role of off-tank is missing, so replace it with a flex role. Get rid of second support and have characters (like brig, mei, lucio) who fill the peel/frontline fights in that category
If 5v5 is to stay, possibly adding weaknesses in tanks that only other tanks can exploit and specific to the tank matchup. Maybe for example if a Rein pins an Orisa into a wall it does extra damage but only specifically to Orisa or other specified tanks? Or if Zarya gets past a certain Charge level it can pierce Winston bubble but does less damage though said bubble? Adding ways for tanks to play into each other without defaulting to counter swapping would be a good start.
Up
I prefer the idea of overkitting every tank so that each tank could effectively brawl each other regardless of the outcome. Sigma and Ramattra are way better than Reinhardt for this reason.
@@scumknight6074that honestly doesn't sound fun though. It sounds like every tank will be homogenous more or less, at which point you might as well just have 1 tank at all
My Idea for it is probably a bit simple but might just be enough.
1. Increase Tank Health a little bit more. Back in 6v6 there would be basically 800-1000 Health from both tanks and to have that lowered by a sufficient amount is a bit nuts, I’m not saying Tanks should have 1000 health as that would be crazy but maybe bump Rein to 750 (400+350) and Hog to maybe 850 may be effective enough.
2. Increase the efficiency of Defensive abilities. Most of the defensive abilities usually don’t have efficient defence, for the Tank or the Team, and I find that maybe increasing their to a balance would be fair, some don’t need adjusting like Fortify or Defence Matrix but maybe increases to Rein Shield, Doom’s Passive Overhealth etc. may be enough to help with survival without having to gigabuff supports or Healing.
3. Add more to the Tank Passive. The Tank passive has fair effects but its nowhere near effective enough, so I would personally add two parts to it: First being what I call “Unyielding”, Tanks have a passive 5% Damage reduction when NOT using a defensive ability. Overhealth will also remain unaffected by this passive but natural health would. Second is what I would call “Unshaken”, all tanks have varying amounts of effective protections from Debuffs and CCs, with a few exceptions. I would also change how some effects work like how some would ignore armour.
4. An address to Counter swapping. Just set Ult to 0% again, and lower Ult generation earned for 30 seconds to make it more punishing and needs to to be more considered to do, across all Roles, to swap to counter must be necessary to prevent hard counters from just holding, which would mainly be done by balancing, but some characters on Principle will do that anyway as part of their identity, but still shouldn’t be so risk free
Nerf Genji
TRUE
Make the entire enemy team Moira
What about:
1. A damage / cc reduction passive for tank but excluded enemy tank.
2. Increase tank damage but increase damage fall off. (For example after 10-20 meters dmg start dropping for brawl tanks)
3. Reduce tank sustain abilities but add a minor consistent healing for tanks (For exmaple 5 hp per sec).
For reference I'm not a tank main just throwing out ideas.
0v0 is the answer.
my main takeaways from the video
- minimap would be insanely helpful for team coordination but should be optional as pro players know where their team is
and as flats was on the rant about how he doesn't think tanks should just be big dps role I got an idea
- tank should be reworked to do less damage with more health AND __healers should be reworked to do less healing so that tanks can still be threatening enough to create space__ and secure kills and be threatening enough to open space.
this way dive tanks still can dive in and create space but wont be used to just be gunning down the back row. this change can fundamentally change the tank role, making tanks more like the miniboss of each team rather than a fat dps that has to hide after being immediately gunned down. however it might help to make some changes to tank heros to adjust to this, and having some dmg dealing abilities for tanks to secure kills better can still fit in just fine
ps I'm against hero bans and I can explain some of my reasoning
it will target one tricks, heros who have a niche in certain maps making those heros dead, and I feel will just generally achieve little while annoying people
pps completely unrelated but for the love of god why wont overwatch make it so that when someone leaves the game an ai will take their place
We all saw you accidentally upload this on the main channel lol
1. Make the tank passive 30% over all resistance.
This would apply to discord, dps passive, boop, how long stuns last, how long freeze lasts. And as of rn I can’t think of anything extra
2. Add a 5% damage reduction to all incoming damage onto a tank. This would mean the ratio of healing to damage would be solved
3. Reduce tank health by 50 so that their not too tanky as to where they never die
I’m plat on tank so probably a million things I’m no understanding about the knock on effects. But I feel this could really deal with the issue of so many status effects being apyed to you mid fight
Something I would love to see tried is giving tanks ult charge when they get hit by negative effects or CC (from targeted non ult CC at least).
So for example lets say you get 5% charge per negative effect. So when you get hit by Sleep, anti, hinder, hack, rock, and discord you would get a whopping 30% ult charge from their bullying. I think this gives tanks the ability to be a bit more imposing, and prevents others from trying to make their game miserable just for the sake of it. I would love it if they were less effected by environmental CC as well, basically anything that wouldn't give ult charge. Ex: they wouldn't be slowed much by mie gun or ram circle thing. Now this would be a big shakeup and be a huge lift for balancing the entire cast afterwards but I think there is real merit to the idea, or at least it would be fun for tanks.
Out of the box! Nice.
Hm true, but then we have a scenario where we are basically encouraging the tank to feed to an extent, and that just wouldn't feel great... especially in the lower rank.
I'm all for this idea, but obviously since it's such a different take on what to do with tank, balancing it won't be as easy.
skill trees! The feature that woulda been added for pve would be amazing, let you change how you play and can make tanks more versatile and more fun to play. Would also make all the other roles more fun ,
How do you fix Overwatch tank in Overwatch 2 WITHOUT going back to 6v6 while the biggest problem is a format issue ?
lol
I would love to see specific passives for every hero, like smite does, that encourages to play the hero more
Dopamine hit idea.. Make the intensity of the dink sound be proportional to the percentage of HP you are doing in damage. So if you do 10 damage to a tank with 500hp it will be a quiet, unsatisfying sound but if you do the same damage to a Tracer it would be more intense since 10hp out of 150 is a much higher percentage of her total life. You still get the satisfying hit markers on tanks if they are low, and that's when they are a better target anyway. But people will naturally prefer to get the nice juicy sounds out of squishier targets.
Don't know why I was recommended this but I couldn't stop listening. I really enjoyed your brutal honesty, thanks for sharing
As QOL: Let dps and tanks see hp of allies through walls like supports.
That's a setting you can turn on in your settings
Overwatch is supposed to be designed like a fps smite or league (at least if i remember right) but something ive noticed from smite is the guardians or tanks in that game almost all have a strong cc in some form to create plays same as overwatch but what those dont have is a equal amount of cc AND saving abilities to deny the play u tried to make. Each support either has a cc or cancel ability to stop ur play but it also creeps into dps with hinder and mei slow. There is also movement creep. So with that almost every support snd dps can either effectively deny your play or evade your play
This is just a spitball idea but they could make it so tanks can’t get headshotted or the tank passive goes from 30% to 40%-50%
yup
No crits on tank is super bad. We want them to feel better and not pop but that would make them immortal
Orisa’s whole issue lmao.
@@diablotry5154 Tanks get a vote. Something needs to change. Balance team hasn't said whether they're ever going to fix the tank experience to suit 5v5. Being the lobbies' personal dinkydinky hero to make DPS heroes feel better is antithetical to their designed purpose.
People who farm crit shots off the tanks head at the expense of shooting any other target is one of tank's primary issues and among the most obvious fixes. Don't make it fun to shoot at the tanks head and tank in general.
The game balance should punish people who focus tank thoughtlessly. This happens in every other role based game. This isn't controversial. If they can make the headshot fix without any other adjustments to HP then slowly tune it back, it'll feel alright.
@@josephreynolds2401 no
U have to make the tanks operate as two tanks , they need to lower the effects the effects of cc on them , and u have to give them utility to play against their counters which gives them options to play against their counters, and stop unnecessary restrictions on tank that get opened up by roles n character eg. lucio speed n rian , tank agency should not be locked to the other roles
everybody gets one swap per round, use it wisely
Ez
No that means you incentivized to only play the strongest tank out of gate and for your dps and supports to swap last so they can hard counter the enemy tank the most for a easy win.
best hope you don't get unlucky and choose a tank the other team is countering.
Doom
That still leaves problems
IMO and after testing a few things, I think that, although not a perma-fix to the Tank role but increasing Tank basic movement speed by 20% and 15% in-combat Ultimate charge.
I can't code for the life of me but I figured that giving Tanks more movement could allow them to have an easier time to dodge enemy cooldowns. And the 15% in-combat Ultimate increase so that they get rewarded for making aggressive plays and more opportunities to make plays.
The movement speed increase also showed me that they are faster at taking space and disengaging if they feel like doing so without it being impossible to chase off if they are really out of position.
The 5v5 format is not going to be perfect for Tanks but the Dev team have yet to really address any of the Tank issues. The Gameplay for Supports has being tackled across 8+ seasons and DPS with the new passive but Tank have yet to really have a season focusing on them and their issues. 5v5 is a complete new format and the Dev team really needs to help the Tank role asap. It has been the most forgotten role for too long.
The test was conducted across High Plat - Low Silver but I will continue to test this with more players to see if it could at least help the Tank role just a bit.
(NOTE: Not saying that these adjustments need to be a new passive. Just that the gameplay around tanks have not changed and the format have not benefited Tanks because the Dev Team has yet to really make significant improvements to the role.)
Open for feedback!
EDIT: DPS passive should be decreased on Tanks. 20% on Squishies and 10-15% on Tanks imo.
bro forgot to take it off private lol
Crazy Idea I’be had recently, what if we made all tanks hitbox and model look more like Queen and Zarya, might need some lore reason as to why with many of the tanks BUT it would make the whole “easy to hit ur op CD’s on” harder like sleep for example, you would have to balance HP and damage around this change ofc but I think it would make them more fun, I think most tanks don’t rely on their size tbh and those who do can get a size buff during specific CD’s, for example Orisa during gold, Ram during form and Rein/Monkey get their “size” from their respective shields
I think tank damage mitigation should provide over health or healing equal to 10-15% of the damage absorbed. This makes doom, d.va, rein, etc. all better picks into hitscan and high sustain dps. I feel like tying each role’s passive to their unique role category, like damage output being tied to healing reduction, support healing being tied to healing done (like mercy’s passive) and tank mitigation being tied to more tankiness is the way to go. This ensures/incentivizes that each role is doing their job.
Im just glad you're open to discussing it now. I remember Flats was staying away from the discussion at first.
Keep in mind I haven't touched this game in a long while, but this is a random idea I came up with
Give tank almost like an on fire meter that once charged enters a brief period of "rage", with slightly increased movement speed and a one-time 100% block to certain abilities, namely nade and hinder. Once entering this state the meter would slowly decrease until depleted for it to be charged once again. Might change things for the better, might make a different slew of problems, but it's different and could be interesting.
Charging the meter could have priorities in how it gets charged. Maybe attacking multiple enemies in one or few shots yields extra charge, or killing enemies with assists could affect the charge gain depending on what would want to be encouraged. I think the main point is that the system chosen is complex enough that balancing could all come down to just tweaking a few numbers to adjust for particular tank heroes.
I guess this dosen't solve the whole tank explodes problem but
1. Remove retain ult charge on swap compeletly
2. Make tank ults across the board alot stronger and more valuable.
3. Nerf / rework abilties that deny ults too efficently (Lamp, Suzu etc.)
This might help the counterswap issue by making it so having ult advantage for these hypotethical buffed ults is far more valuable, so their is a decision to be made to swap for an advantage or stay on your tank to not give up on the ult economy race.
Things that ive suggested and even contributed to Spilo tackling this a few months ago. a tank passive. that only enables 1 debuff to be active on a tank anyone time. weather if applying a debuff on a target already debufed has no effect or cancels the former when applying the new one. DPS passive is separate to this in that there is a minimum damage threshold before applying the effect, furthermore, the duration when applied is half than other roles. Tanks also have a reduced respawn timer enabling them to get back in the fight sooner. from this point it comes down to adjusting each tank individually to finish off.
Thing is that the resistance to all CCs would be super good for all tanks. From at least 30% to 40% it would massively impact tanks like Hog, Doom and even WBall. But for those tanks maybe lower some of their health.
it was nice to be at your appearance at the esports tower flats! good to hear what you had to say and I would love to be good at overwatch, but it is rough like you said with people fighting lmaoo
At around 21:00 you mention the mini map. Not only do I agree, I think that would be imperative to fixing the Sombra problem too.
When she hacks health packs or characters, she can see them on the minimap AND they tell you who is there in an area around them. No more perma invis and her translocator has a timer of invis after throwing it. Then she can actually be the “hacker” they want without actively ruining the game with a perma invis character.
My parents: "You have all the knowledge at your finger tips!"
All the knowledge at your fingertips:
I think spilo was saying that we should increase the effort it takes for “brain dead dps” to shred tanks. Bastions turret form is extremely oppressive to a lot of tanks with the bastion having to risk very little.
Spilo’s acting as if Bastion’s hard meta, while literally listing his other counter. Reaper and Bastion aren’t braindead, they’re simple and have to take risks on their own. If he considers tank shredding to be oppressive, then every hitscan dps needs to be nerfed too.
A thing me and a friend was talking about was getting ride of role passives in general and giving characters passive based on there kit and personality. When overwatch 2 was first announced and I saw that zen was Getting a stronger melee it was cool and awesome that he had something no other hero had. It started happening to new hero’s as they came out as well and while not totally sure it could fix some stuff with all characters. I don’t have any solutions to counter-swapping and I don’t think any one solution is going to work perfectly.
The fix in my head has always been give each tank +1 new ability to make each of them more well-rounded in what they can do.
That way theoretically we can see less counter swapping because matchups won't be so deterministic.
We can also drop the health pool and damage on tanks to compensate. Never seemed like a good idea to just add stats to tanks to compensate going from 2 to 1 tank per team.
In the interview with Aaron Keller you both talked about the need for overwatch to have more 'levers' to adjust, and I think this approach adds not one but a series of levers that can be finely adjusted - versus just adding one new global passive as a massive lever who's impact on certain characters will be disproportionate.
i fucking love the mini-map idea. i struggle to get into a really competitive mindset, knowing where things are, where everyones standing. so on and so on. a mini map just to know where my team is at any given point when my team may not be great at communicating that would be huge.
I think its 2 things. 1. make tanks reduce all anti effects (as has been mentioned) 2. 2 flex slots per team. Still can't have more than 2 of any role but you make 1 tank 1 dps and 1 healer and then 2 slots which you can flex choose. If you want 2 tanks you can but you have to give up a dps or healer.
Tanks are supposed to be space creators and tempo setters, but they individually do those jobs differently. However they can be grouped somewhat together in how they do it. I think we should give a passive to each one of those groups. An example is that dive tanks get a buff of some kind the more people they are affecting, the more cooldowns they force the enemies to use (obviously not continuous but within a fight or timeframe) or Rush Tanks getting a temporary buff when full sending. Their passive should incentivize quick and decisive action.
Possibly a horrendous take but I think it would be interesting to change the balance philosophy to the following:
DPS - Damage and Mobility: Tone down or remove DPS CC and allow them to focus on getting picks.
Tank - negative effects to enemies: lower tank damage but crank the amount of CC, debuffs, and health they have. (Like in the 1000-1200 range) For example: reign heart hammer swings have less damage but massive knockback, Mauga fire makes enemies venerable, JQ E applies antiheal. Since CC is only on one hero, it gets around permastuns while still allowing them to make a significant contribution to team fights, just not with damage.
Supports - focus on healing and buffing team: Remove support CC (sleep, Ana nade, discord, etc) but allow them to buff team members in new ways (cd reduction, rate of fire increases, single target damage reduction) which would allow for DPS to get more reliable kills and tank to CC more.
It seems like each game would play like a tug of war game with DPS setting a baseline, Tank trying to reduce enemy effectiveness, and Supps increasing ally effectiveness.
It seems like it would be a pain in the ass to balance from a hero fantasy perspective but may lead to more defined roles with different ways of contributing to a team fight.
I agree that the biggest knob they need to tune is the Tank passive. Knockback resistance just isn't enough. Tanks will take everything, and if they're always going to be so easy to hit, then debuffs need to be less effective on them. 30% less time on anti-heal, DPS passive, Discord damage, slows, stuns, hacks, traps, all of it.
I also agree that reducing the satisfaction of shooting the tank would help a lot. It could also reinforce the idea that trying to shoot them down isn't as effective as denying their plays or avoiding their engages. It at least shouldn't be as effective.
Tanks don't need to do more damage, they just have to not fall over attempting to hold any space.
A Hero pick+ban system can potentially change alot of the counter swap problems. *Example*
-Both DPS pick the heroes they want(2)
-Both Supports pick their heroes(2)
-tank pick the hero for either synergy or to have an answer for what the other team picked(1)
*next the ban stage with limits. Up to 2 tanks can be banned from either team. Up to 3 dps can be banned from either team. Up to 3 supports can be banned from either team*
-tank picks one unselected hero they want to be banned from any role on the opposing team(-1)
-Both DPS pick a hero they want to be banned from either role on the opposing team. If both DPS choose a different hero to ban, this will become a 50/50 on which hero gets banned(-1)
Both supports pick a hero to ban from either role on the opposing team. This will also become a 50/50 if both supports pick a different hero(-1)
*Next pick stage* similar to the first pick stage but this time supports pick first.
-Both Supports pick the heroes they would like to play adding up to(4) support heroes in play so far.
-Both DPS pick the heroes they would like to play, adding up to(4)DPS heroes in play so far.
-Tank pick the hero they would to play adding up to(2) Tanks in play so far.
*Next, 2nd and final ban stage*
-Both Supports pick one hero they would like to ban from either role adding up to (-3)
-Both DPS pick one hero they would like to ban from either role adding up to(-3)
-Tank picks one hero they would like to ban adding up to(-2)
*Next stage* Final pick stage
-Tank picks 2 heroes they would like to play, adding up to(4) Tanks in play
-DPS pick one hero they would like to play. If both players choose a different hero, it becomes a 50/50 on which hero can be played, adding up to(5) DPS heroes in play.
-Supports pick one hero they would like to play. If both players choose different heroes, it becomes a 50/50 on which hero can be played, adding up to(5) supports in play.
After each round, the process will resets and is done again. Banned heroes from the previous round will become unbanned and unable to be banned until the next round.
This entire process will strategically encourage players to decide if they want to play towards their team’s strengths or the opposing team’s weaknesses without having all the answers. Between rounds, you’ll be able to adjust that strategy. Choose carefully on who you ban and who you pick to play
I honestly think that a minimap that’s exclusive to tanks that doesn’t just show your allies but your enemies as well would be really cool and gives tanks a unique tactical advantage to help the low to mid-tier tank players play the game effectively and the high to pro-tier players not get detonated by misjudging where someone was
OK here's how you fix thomas the tank:
1: split support into hard and hybrid. Dont split the queue, yet, but allow only one per type
Hybrid support is capable of DPS and multi target healing. Think Lucio, Brog, Mercy (yes mercy)
Hard support is capable of enabling tanks better. Think Ana, Bap.
2: Tank passive: Gain damage resistance equal to half your current health percentage, plus 20%. (at 1hp you have 20% resistance, at max you have 70%) Amplify incoming healing by the same value.
3: Release a support overhaul that A: reduces healing across the board by about 50%. and B: forces support characters to be more in line with their roles. Some heroes like lucio probably don't even need changes, but some will need sweeping changes. Throwing Sym back into support is possible here, just give her back shield generator, a repair-pack like ability but for shield, and perk that shielded allies recover health when their shield takes damage.
3: Release a ton of support heroes. There needs to be options so you can lean into the concept
The expected result:
Tanks are monoliths but focusing them will yield great rewards. Fights will snowball instead of locking up and it will take skill to turn it around, but it's quite possible. Regrouping instead of all dying will become viable if your tank can escape.
Essentially, the game pivots from being DPS focused to being tank-focused, without changing the interactions between DPS per-team. and support per-team.
Obviously tanks will need SOME changes. Orisa stands out as a good tank because she can temporarily reverse the effects of a snowball, replacing her lost nartural resistance using fortify. Hog fits well into the same catagory. Rein's shield buys time for the same process to occur. Ball might need to be reworked into a DPS. (Tank-type DPS with higher HP might be fun? Investigation required.)
- Tank is the most important role. Theirfore you need to be playing at your best, to even be able to win. (But if you're exceptionally good you're still at the mercy of the rest of your teammates skill)
- The value of counterswapping the tank is very high because of how important the tank is.
- Counterswapping will always exist, because there is only one tank, and every tank has a counter the other tank can chose. (Because the nature of the game's asymmetrical characters)
- The solution to fix 5v5 is to make the tanks value to be great enough to carry games on their own skill, while being immune to the need to swap if they're fighting a bad match up. (Which is basically impossible.)
- Or you can add a second tank so you have two characters that need to be counterswapped. (which is inherently harder to do.)
And this is all ignoring actual parts of gameplay that would effect a tank such as the CCs like, Stuns, Purples, Discirds, and focus fire. (Which would be reduced by having a second tank.)
Edit: I'm not making this to be constructive, I'm making this because I think the balance of this game is atrocious and I need to vent.
i agree with the cc/ability 30% reduction for sure (nade, non-ult hard cc, damage, boops, etc.) but i also wonder if buffs and changes on armour would help. like you said, beta rein had more armour % than health and i think it could make a huge difference in the tanks exploding issue, especially if they give tanks more armour and add in some buffs, even make some changes so maybe tank-busters like bastion and reaper struggle more against armour than they do rn. then maybe make it so headshots have a reduced impact on tank to combat their massive hitboxes, and adjust the audio to be less rewarding against tanks and maybe you have something that works. i don't play tank and maybe this would be overtuned or maybe it'd be useless! but i'd love to see how something like that plays out. i feel like it'd put the other tanks on a similar playing field as orisa (who honestly would likely need to be nerfed if armour is buffed) without affecting their character identities/homogenizing every tank!
Ultimately i think one of the biggest issues with tank is how the game doesn't actually reward the player to do their job right, compared to the other roles. To fix that i would lean more into the identity of the tank role, i.e. creating / holding space and being a threat. The changes would be as follows:
1. Tanks now gain ult charge from mitigating dmg
- this change would reward tank players for protecting themself and their team
- of course some tanks benefit from this more than others and each tanks ult cost would be incriesed accordingly
2. Decreased negative effects duration
- this would include effects such as antinade, dps passive and stuns
- i would imagine it to be added to the existing passive and be at least around 50%
- since tanks purpose is to be the front of the team i don't believe they should be the most vulnerable targets to these effects
- if this change feels too strong, the effect can be changed to be lost when under 40% Hp to allow counterplay
3. Complete CC immunity when nearly full HP
- inspired by the tweet in the video
- i believe this would be a great way to increase the threat that tanks pose without incriesing their raw numbers
- it functions like a great initiating tool but would be hard to keep the effect up during prolonged fights
Overall these changes would only be for the tank role in general and if they were implemented i'd expect each tank to be separately rebalanced around them.
I’ve been playing comp pretty consistently for almost a year now (Ive played ow since 2019 but very sporadically and quick play only). This season I was able to climb my dps and support from plat to diamond pretty easily, but my tank has dropped from plat 1 to plat 5 (partly cause I mostly solo queue). Tank has been horrible this season. Genuinely hate playing tank. Constantly switching to counter the other tank and even if you completely outplay the other team’s tank it doesn’t matter if the other team has better dps, which frequently happens. It’s so frustrating. In the past I felt like I could dominate as tank, I could carry the whole team but now it’s the complete opposite. Honestly I enjoyed the feel of the game more when there were two tanks and maybe they should try bringing it back.
Minimap + Team health indicators (which could also show ult charge & cooldowns) would be great QOL for such a hectic game.
Let tank choose one of several bots at spawn. They fly with the tank and all have different buffs, like damage mitigation, or anti-cc, or a minimap functionality. Give the bots a good chunk of health and armor. Once destroyed, no more buffs.
Allows for counterplay to enemy team by selecting the correct bot for the current situation. Gives you a mini 6v6 since there is an extra target to shoot.
Offers more survivability to the tank without getting exploded and offers different types of play.
You can make it so that you have a pool of 3 bots for the entire match and you can take the same one each time, or a different one each time. Also tbh makes the tankroll way more fun to play by giving an extra mechanic.
Gives the devs an oportunity to make creative cool little robot droids with their own personality and voicelines and the freedom to go more all out with new tanks since you can mitigate weaknesses through these bots.
Anyway, it just seems fun. :)
i think rein having 1000 hp again wouldnt be so bad
I wonder if a tank improvement could be to give tanks something like an Overwatch version of ‘Adaptation’ from Warframe. In that game, if you’re hit with say, a weapon that deals Heat damage, you’ll gain 10% resistance to Heat damage for like, 30 seconds. Every additional instance of Heat damage refreshes that resistance timer, as well as adds an additional 10% resistance to that damage type. If a player is slammed with enough Heat damage, they’ll eventually gain up to 90% damage reduction to that specific damage type.
Maybe something similar could be implemented for tanks in this game. Except it’s like, 5% resistance per hero, not just damage, but gradual resistance toward a specific enemy hero in their entirety, and caps at like, 60%. So that way if someone is spamming damage at a tank, eventually that attacker’s damage will be cut down to less than half of what they were originally dealing.
How about making some sup and dps heroes lean into an 'off-tank' role imbracing a hybrid playstyle. This will relive some pressure from the tank to be the only Frontline. We know some lower damage dps and low healing supports exist and are loved.
For example, remove Mei secondary fire and give her a close range/ defensive ability instead or reduce brig passive and e range but make her tankier.
In many games, teams having varying levels of possible tankiness is crucial
Create unique mitigation passive for each tank. Ex. Rein, Ignition Armor: doing damage with the following abilities grant damage reduction of 45% for 4 seconds: Fire strike, Hammer, Shatter.
Zarya: Laser armor: dependent on charge: 0-20% damage mitigation
Junkerqueen: adrenaline boost: damage reduction of 60% when health hits under 50% health for 10 seconds, “resets after heals to 75% health”
Last one Orisa: since she’s a tank tank: just give her this: Javelin Booster: after using a javelin ability and while outside of fortify/ult, gain dmg reduction for 30% for 2 seconds
Give tanks a new passive
Willpower: at low HP, gain 1 or more of the following bonuses (depending on the tank, and how balance testing turns out)
1. gain movement and attack speed
2. Reduce cooldowns (of some abilities, but not including abilities that generate health)
3. Decrease damage taken
4. Reduce CC time
5. Increase damage output
This would require a lot of testing and fine tuning - for example I don’t think Orisa should ever have low cooldown fortify, and no tank should gain all of these.
But a higher move speed and attack speed Rein that takes less damage would make him more fun and more threatening.
The idea would be to assign each tank one or a combination of these bonuses that makes them a) less killable b) more threatening or c) more fun (ex if I’m gonna explode as Sigma, at least I can throw my rock more frequently)
I don’t know what the health threshold should be, but 50% could be a good place to start and adjust from there (could also provide a balance slider by giving meta tanks a lower threshold and non-meta tanks a higher threshold). Another possibility is having the bonuses scale with HP (ex. as my health goes down, cc and incoming damage goes down)
I think they need to lean into tanks being more cc and setups for their damagers. Tanks should be the main class that gets cc, this will incentivize more team plays. They should not be able to do a lot of damage at all but to compensate they take less damage. Maybe get rid of armor for tanks and just have them have a 15-25% flat damage reduction. This will allow tanks to still 1v1 based on sustain but they have to work more like a game manager.
I understand this doesn’t really work for tanks like Doom or Junker Queen but they could be labeled between offensive tanks and defensive tanks and get a different buff like faster movement speed and/or smaller hit boxes
I think we should introduce a global TANK resource based cooldown. Which allows you to ignore CC for maybe one second upon use. BUT it only recharges when youre close to the enemy team (I think the enemy tank should be an exception to the recharge).
This way close ranged tanks like Rein/Ramm, are incentivised to engage and can do so without worrying about being bombarded with CC cooldowns.
There would have to be a bunch of niche differences between the tanks with this cd, as I think itd also just enable orisa to just play way too aggressively and act as a second gold.
But, with it being a resource cooldown maybe it could charge up or charge down depending on how many cooldowns you use as a tank. This would prevent tanks like orisa or doomfist from constantly getting this new cooldown from just naturally recycling through their cooldowns. While also letting characters like Rein or Ramm to benefit from this because their CDs are more committment heavy or have longer cooldowns.
main thing i would say is that it would need to be an ability resistance. every ability might be able to keep the same intensity on an ability. (same damage/DPS/debuff) but make the effect either cause like 70% knockback resist and 50% effect duration. like as tank ash dynamite really fucks you because the dps passive lasts way longer. the dynamite would only burn for half duration and the dps passive would only last 1 second. you still get value for targeting a tank but the tank has a lot more room for counterplay
When you’re playing support and there’s a critical ally off your screen add a little red arrow marker pointing in the direction the critical ally is in. Probably won’t help high ranks but
To fix tanks, you have to think about their main role that they wanna fulfill: space-making. How do we focus on that? Well, that comes in two ways. One, disruption. Two, soaking damage. With that in mind, some tanks already have cc immunity, so if we just give that to tanks that don’t already have it, that would just disproportionately balance the tank role and (more likely than not) favor those who didn’t already have it. Cc resistance, though, is something that can be pushed a bit further. They already have a bit of knockback resistance, but what if they went a bit further as to reduce debuff effectiveness on tanks by 50%? Anti-nade, being a good example. Right now, it completely shuts down some tanks. Roadhog? JQ? Mauga? They’d prolly be dumpstered with that applied. Having it instead cut heals by 50% would severely cripple their presence, but wouldn’t outright kill their kit. It would put them at a severe disadvantage, but there would at least be some counterplay against that, and people who cleanse debuff would not be prioritized nearly as much, and would only serve niche roles. If you wanted to encourage team play, you could include that additively with the dps passive (for 65% total heal cut at this point I think it’d be?). This would also of course factor into the various types of hard cc too, like sleep, shatter, hinder, yadda yadda yadda. Not immune to it, and the cc still has impact, but much less than if you were to use it on more priority targets. With the secondary goal in mind, the tank should also be able to soak up damage. But right now, with most tanks being shred down instantly with their big damage reduction cooldown or shield broken, then they can’t fulfill that role properly. I don’t think it’d be a bad idea to add a sort of one-shot protection to this game for tanks (got this idea from Risk of Rain 2). This wouldn’t have a major impact on the majority of fights considering 90% of damage sources couldn’t even touch that, but in certain cases (Dva bomb, junkrat tire, etc.), it could be the difference between having that last bit of disruption for space-making without making it too oppressive. And this isn’t to say they’d be invulnerable to damage at 100%, no. More, treat it as a pseudo bap lamp, where tanks can’t take more than 90% of their health in one hit (of course numbers subject to change, but you get the idea). At the very least, I think the first idea has some sort of merit. The second might be worth considering if idea #1 wouldn’t be enough. Thoughts would be nice. And who knows? I might be talkin out my ass. But that’s what the comments section is for, amirite?
All tanks need their mitigation/heal/shield to live like rein shield orisa fort hog heal dva matrix doom/ram block bubble etc but having that as 1 or 2 of their 3-4 abilities means they have 1/2 or 3/4s as much fun as the other roles where all 4 of their buttons are fun and add to their theme. So make those mitigation abilities a passive like sombra fade that auto-activates, then get rid of all the self cc, movement lockout, and self slowdown on their abilities like dva guns rein shield rein ult rein charge etc and you give them all an extra 1 or 2 abilities since you have open slots now where the mitigation ones were and with more abilities you get more fun. Also with the tank part of tanks a passive ability they can be more unique since instead of every tank having the same generic orisa/hog fortify or sig/rein/ram shield or doom/ram block or dva/orisa defense matrix they have 1 or 2 new different unique abilities in those ability slots that could further the theme of the characters. With up to 2 more abilities the fun ceiling of tanks could be increased by up to 2 times for characters like orisa who has 2 out of 4 abilities there just to survive maybe even 3 if you count her ult. It is currently like if the DPS all had to have their left click or right click and sometimes both on an ability slot you'd get rid of alot of the fun of every dps character like which echo/ana/kiri/sojourn ability gets removed to allow them to barely fulfil their roles? and then are they as fun? no of course not but tanks have to have theirs on up to 2 ability slots? It also would help if there wasn't sombra's hack which just subtracts other characters' abilities at the same time as tanks already have basically half the # of abilities of the rest of the characters. Also being melee when you're slower or equal movement to the enemies is not a good experience and is why rein melee could be alot more fun and why genji/brig melee is alot more fun and also their shield/deflect is unique and adds to their character while rein's is just another tank shield. Even jq has more meaningful melee gameplay with her pull/movespeed buff giving effectively much more movement even though she also gets a shotgun. If Orisa was melee she would probably be just a better rein. She has much more control in her movement on e, fortify, spear instead of fire strike, and a much better version of slam on ult. But she also gets a gun. Where is the balancing for the melee design of reinhardt? They just ended up putting all the eggs in fire strike which is why there are 2 charges that go through shields on a low cooldown because basically it is the only rein ability where the fun doesn't come with a whole bunch of drawbacks and maybe you want trade-offs but those trade-offs should emerge from the gameplay not from just making the ability have a -10% movespeed value in code somewhere. Like for other characters if you use their ability in the wrong scenarios or you use an ability too soon or too often and its not ready when you need it but rein just has to take 400 damage to use charge take 20% more damage for holding shield take 200 damage for slam holding you still and you still aren't on top of the enemies in a position to use melee unless you got lucky with the slam or pin and the enemies didnt just hold lmb on you the entire time. Also if his shield was a passive abliity you could make it activate while using slam or charge which could help with those scenarios if they really want the self stun locks to be his identity.
I believe (as a tank main myself) that tanks can be fixed (or atleast go in a positive direction) by clearly defining their role. What i think about tank is the one who can take alot of damage and create opportunity (like space) for other roles to make their play. These can be done through 3 (or maybe more later on) types on hero design (mutually exclusive):
1) focusing on increased health bar (mostly for hog) and reduced damage.
2) focusing on amping up damage mitigation abilities and reduced damage (probably least damage done amongst all heroes).
3) high mobility and medium damage and lesser health bar.
Most important thing in first 2 design choices is that tank shouldn't be instant killable until all team members focus him down. And that doesn't mean amp up tanks damage. These designs align with the above definition.
Considering these 3 design choices, mauga and orisa (from ow2) are certainly bad designs: they survive for long and do higher damage. Ramatra also falls somewhat in this odd design. High poke damage shouldn't be a tank thing, it's for the dps. That's the main reason i liked ow1 orisa more. Cause she played a tank role. Some tweaks were needed but not a complete rework.
Hog should have the highest hp bar ever existed. And not that his breather should be buffed. That way if not managed properly hog will not be able to keep his hp full. He may have hook shot kill combo but with much higher cooldown.
Many things can be defined and tweaked around these 3 hero design templates i just discussed little bit to give an idea.