@@mattwill63Matt You seem to be forgetting that there is much more to an ICE car than the engine (alternator, belts, transmission, axel, U-joints, etc)
Hey Tom, what an intellectual feast of a presentation for non engineer lay people to gain a deeper understanding of the various EV battery configurations and how they work. For someone like myself who has recently purchased a first EV vehicle and wishes to gain a deeper understanding of EV engineering architecture, this was absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much for taking the time to produce this. I would love to see more presentations like this on other general aspects of EV vehicles, maybe you could do one on the various types and configurations of the motors?
I think this is the best battery video I’ve ever seen and I think I’ve seen them all. It clear, concise and detailed. Your presentation was way above the best. Please do more.
Great start, Tom. Next I'd like to see a discussion of how the pack organization affects the ability to draw/input (discharge/charge) massive power. This is probably a discussion of resistance in milliohms and how to minimize that to minimize heat generation and maximize the available power delivered as opposed to generating heat within the pack that has to be removed through cooling. A discussion of connector resistance vs busbar resistance (minimizing the number of modules) would be helpful. Example: Jaguar I-Pace has 34 modules with external wires & connectors compared to a Tesla Model 3 which has 4 modules with busbar interconnects.
Excellent video! I’ve worked on battery separators for four years and this is a great and understandable summary of many different aspects. Also good to leave power draw to a different video as it depends on a lot of aspects of cell design (not just the raw values) as well as the pack design, especially thermal management. So it deserves its own video.
Great video! Particularly loved the beginning to end flow and the spreadsheet! One thing that's worth mentioning is the BMS will balance each of the series individually and that over time, the individual cells in parallel for each of these series can diverge in ampacity and voltage. This is because balancing happens at the series level, not cell level, and cells vary in resistance (degrade) over time. As such, having all cells in series, like in the case of the Tesla LFP prismatic, creates the added benefit of individual cell-level monitoring since there are no parallel groups. Additionally, the lower voltages of LFP, while seemingly a drawback, allow for charging to 100% and significantly reduce unwanted reactions that would otherwise occur over 80% state of charge (>4v per cell of 4.2v max) in NMC chemistries. Other benefits for LFP include higher cycle life, lower cost, higher safety, and environmentally friendly (no cobalt). Of course, nothing is perfect and the primary drawbacks to LFP include lower volumetric and gravimetric energy density as well as poor cold weather performance. I just wish the US M3 RWD, which uses quality CATL LFP cells, wasn't de-contented with fewer speakers, only 170kw max DC fast charging (vs 250kw for LR), and 32 amp home charging (vs 48a for LR). Tesla should offer a premium upgrade option to the M3 RWD for those who are looking for LFP and not have reduced functionality to hit a price target. Perhaps this is due to the C rating on the LFP prismatic cells (would be great deep-dive material!). Last but not least, it will be interesting to see if Tesla moves to LMFP chemistry in the future for slightly better cold weather performance and volumetric/gravimetric energy density to the detriment of cycle life.
Whoa this man knows his stuff . I learned everything about battery construction except for the actual chemistry . The issue of thermal runaway is pretty fascinating and there have been a few major events around the worlds.
This excellent overview of EV battery pack design challenges and options shows how the critical elements determining the reliability and service life of vehicles are changing from the mechanical to the chemical. This video clearly showed that sealants, coolants, conducting/insulating/supporting foams and gels used in the pack are in a demanding environment, and all have a critical role in reliability. Let's hope all the goops last.
Great info he brings it all together! More on cell temperatures what is optimum for fast charging and power delivery and how the cooling system and heat scavenging works together.
Wonderful overview. A lot of connections made in my brain today. Also ... nice pun .... Ohm's Law will certainly ground your understanding of how it all works ;)
I didn't truly understand Electric Vehicles until I purchased my first Electric vehicle. You learn a whole lot about them when you actually live with them. Far beyond the "reviewers" who simply tell you about initial opinions.
Great Video! I love to see the differences, especially the changes and improvements made over time. I would love to see a tear down video of the Tesla LFP battery used in the Model 3 RWD. Do you have any videos or pictures of that battery (cells/module/pack)?
This was an excellent session as I listened to it on my way to work this morning. Can you elaborate on the difference between the problematic 🔥BOLT batteries vs the updated units?
The Bolt battery pack we tore down was pre-recall. We haven't seen the post-recall Bolt battery pack to know for sure, but we've seen other GM packs that were post-Bolt recall. I would not be surprised to see that the post-recall Bolt pack has some added Aerogel layering in some strategic places.
Would love to see some of your suggestions about shape/size of cells & cooling pack designs to maximize efficiency, reduce casing cell material weight, and perhaps improve or reduce thermal runaway to smaller and smaller numbers of cells.
This was awesome. A friend of mine has a BYD seal with an 82KWH LFP battery, he claims he can get 500km useable range yet my model S with its 85KWH battery is good for 390km. Tesla service have advised me the battery health in my model S is 96% - excellent rate for a 9 year old EV. The car has never been super charged and the max charge for 99% driving is 70-80% and min never been less than 25%.
Given the charge/discharge cycle & thermal changes that result in expansion and contraction of the cells and pack roll degradation over time, are there material choices in battery cell casings/rolls, cathode/anode materials that could further reduce or limit expansion/contraction damage, such as vacuum sealing cells, packs, modules, casings, etc, in order to improve efficiency of thermal management?
That's a big and complex subject, exacerbated by practical cost limitations, and the many different form factors and sizes of cells. As you can see in the videos, there are lots of methods that all compete to be best. Any and all of of those things you mention may help, but at what cost and weight penalties? Sorry for the non-answer, but it's the wild west out there. I personally look forward to the day the performance and durability wins over cost, but I don't expect that anytime soon. For example, with pouch cells you have a big copper tab on the anode that is highly thermally conductive and strings throughout the entire cell. Why not just extract the heat from that big copper anode tab? Well, because that tab must also remain electrically insulated from the other tabs. It is difficult (too expensive), so nobody does that, yet.
The main way to avoid physical damage is to reduce the charge range. For example stay between 20% and 80% of full charge, and your battery will love you forever. Not covered here is long term damage (ageing) of cells is from one-way breakdown of electrolyte. This happens at charge extremes. Having some externally applied pressure counteracts inefficiencies from physical separation of + and - sides.
Excellent detailed discussion, but the wide variety of chemistries and physical configurations begs the question about the inevitable standarization of battery packs. I want to buy an EV, but will I be able to swap to a better battery in a few years without dismantling the entire car? Will I be able to buy a third-party battery without voiding the OEM warranty (since competition should also drive down battery costs)? I'd like to know if there is any industry effort to create standard battery specs and allow interchangeability. Legacy battery makers like Panasonic and LG have already faced this issue that affects future mass adoption.
Inside the coolant tubes are there stamped and folded baffles to cause turbulence in the liquid flow like they commonly insert in Chrysler Aluminum U shaped Heater cores? These baffles are thin strip of copper with cut outs that are folded to make the strip 3 dimensional and stay centers in the fluid flow to cause the coolant to flow more slowly, and better transfer heat to or from the tube walls, depending on the temperature of the coolant.
Excellent info. Wound have been nice to see an approximate cell weight for each cell type listed in the spreadsheet. While weights of 18650, 2170 cells are known, it would have been nice to see how a LFP cell, or pack compares in weight compared to it's energy density. Perhaps a topic for a future video?
This was the best explanation of batteries that I have seen. It helped to see the insides. Tabs and no tabs.
batteries are more complex than engines therefore ev are more prone to issues.
Definitely worth the watch.
@@mattwill63Matt You seem to be forgetting that there is much more to an ICE car than the engine (alternator, belts, transmission, axel, U-joints, etc)
Many EV's have u-joints
Wow, what a great lecture on battery packs, thanx! ❤
Glad you liked it!
Hey Tom, what an intellectual feast of a presentation for non engineer lay people to gain a deeper understanding of the various EV battery configurations and how they work. For someone like myself who has recently purchased a first EV vehicle and wishes to gain a deeper understanding of EV engineering architecture, this was absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much for taking the time to produce this. I would love to see more presentations like this on other general aspects of EV vehicles, maybe you could do one on the various types and configurations of the motors?
I think this is the best battery video I’ve ever seen and I think I’ve seen them all. It clear, concise and detailed. Your presentation was way above the best. Please do more.
Wow, thanks!
Really nice, detailed and informative explanation of several different energy dense designs. Thank you.
That was amazing. Best battery video I have seen and loved the examples of different OEM approaches.
Super explanation and we'll articulated to boot! More of this for other topics please!
Missed this channels uploads.
Fantastic video. Best Monroe vid I've watched in a couple years. Love this guy and you can tell he loves his craft
Wow, thanks!
The best ever video on batteries. Its worth spending 40 min in this video
Thank you very much for the clear and competent exposé of a complex issue.
Glad it was helpful!
Clear, concise and easily understood. Really well done.
Much appreciated!
What a cool spreadsheet, thank you for explaining it.
I love the details, you can always count on Munro for quality videos.
Amazing video thanks for sharing this video, a lot of information and knowledge. hope we can get more and similar videos
More to come!
Proof of concept, Munro Engineering has the right stuff, good information to advise to Manufacturers.
Thanks for sharing the knowledge about this critical technology.
Excellent descriptive video - so well explained, thank you.
*MORE* Professor Tom! *Terrific*
Awesome video! One of the best from Munro!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great detailed explanation of the various battery/cell packs and their construction.
More of this please. That was embarrassingly brilliant.
why embarassing? didn't understand
Fantastic explanation of current battery technology used in the field today!
Great video Tom! Can’t wait to see the next more in depth video on deeper understanding of BMS.
Great start, Tom. Next I'd like to see a discussion of how the pack organization affects the ability to draw/input (discharge/charge) massive power. This is probably a discussion of resistance in milliohms and how to minimize that to minimize heat generation and maximize the available power delivered as opposed to generating heat within the pack that has to be removed through cooling. A discussion of connector resistance vs busbar resistance (minimizing the number of modules) would be helpful. Example: Jaguar I-Pace has 34 modules with external wires & connectors compared to a Tesla Model 3 which has 4 modules with busbar interconnects.
Good afternoon! The table is wonderful. Thank you for your work.
Good explanation. Would you like to add to the excel the weight of the pack.
Excellent video! I’ve worked on battery separators for four years and this is a great and understandable summary of many different aspects.
Also good to leave power draw to a different video as it depends on a lot of aspects of cell design (not just the raw values) as well as the pack design, especially thermal management. So it deserves its own video.
Fantastic, comprehensive and concise, best battery configuration explanation I have seen, well done,
Thank you. Very educational and can you please do a continuation?
Great video, please include the LFP battery pack built by CATL. Used by Tesla and other manufacturers. Would be interesting to see differences.
@2:15 I saved this screenshot, thank you! From this moment forward I knew that this would be an informative video. It did not disappoint!
Awesome video! Best explanation of EV batteries on a low level that I can understand. Thank you!
Great video! Particularly loved the beginning to end flow and the spreadsheet!
One thing that's worth mentioning is the BMS will balance each of the series individually and that over time, the individual cells in parallel for each of these series can diverge in ampacity and voltage. This is because balancing happens at the series level, not cell level, and cells vary in resistance (degrade) over time. As such, having all cells in series, like in the case of the Tesla LFP prismatic, creates the added benefit of individual cell-level monitoring since there are no parallel groups. Additionally, the lower voltages of LFP, while seemingly a drawback, allow for charging to 100% and significantly reduce unwanted reactions that would otherwise occur over 80% state of charge (>4v per cell of 4.2v max) in NMC chemistries. Other benefits for LFP include higher cycle life, lower cost, higher safety, and environmentally friendly (no cobalt). Of course, nothing is perfect and the primary drawbacks to LFP include lower volumetric and gravimetric energy density as well as poor cold weather performance.
I just wish the US M3 RWD, which uses quality CATL LFP cells, wasn't de-contented with fewer speakers, only 170kw max DC fast charging (vs 250kw for LR), and 32 amp home charging (vs 48a for LR). Tesla should offer a premium upgrade option to the M3 RWD for those who are looking for LFP and not have reduced functionality to hit a price target. Perhaps this is due to the C rating on the LFP prismatic cells (would be great deep-dive material!). Last but not least, it will be interesting to see if Tesla moves to LMFP chemistry in the future for slightly better cold weather performance and volumetric/gravimetric energy density to the detriment of cycle life.
This is an excellent overview of battery designs and function.
Thank you so much.
This guy is explaining it realy well. No new information for me but still good to watch!
wonderful overview and explanation from a very great person.
Great battery technology knowledge sharing 🎉🎉🎉
Thanks for watching
Very precise, detailed, and the flow of presentation was quite awesome!
Finest work yet from an associate of Munro.
This is a great video. Very good presentation. Love the amount of knowledge you get in Munro's videos.
Much appreciated!
Danke!
Thank you!
Awsome content!, Very complete for a 37 minutes video ! well explained, excellent explaination rate, We want more like that!
More to come!
Thanks a lot for your excellent explanation about various types of EV batteries using very rare training materials for us.
🙋♂️TOM ,THANK YOU AND ALL YOUR PEOPLE FOR DOING THIS AND EXPLAINING IT CLEARLY FOR THE LAYPEOPLE 🤔💚💚💚
Great presentation and explanation of EV batteries! Thank you!
Was waiting for a good EV battery pack/module video…. Very well done!
Thank you. I looking forward to watching more of your videos.
the batteries and production constantly being updated is the coolest ideas about these cars
Whoa this man knows his stuff . I learned everything about battery construction except for the actual chemistry . The issue of thermal runaway is pretty fascinating and there have been a few major events around the worlds.
Awesome detailed presentation.
Glad you liked it!
Good breakdown on packs. I like how they have evolved.
Great video. Would love this type of video on EV battery manufacturing.
This excellent overview of EV battery pack design challenges and options shows how the critical elements determining the reliability and service life of vehicles are changing from the mechanical to the chemical. This video clearly showed that sealants, coolants, conducting/insulating/supporting foams and gels used in the pack are in a demanding environment, and all have a critical role in reliability. Let's hope all the goops last.
Very well done, explained. I appreciate this video! Hi Sandy!!
Thanks for watching!
Thank You for supporting Electric Vehicles and for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
Great lecture! Would love to see a deeper dive into BMS as well
Noted!
A truly educational experience! Thank you so much. Brilliant.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic information thank you 🔌
Our pleasure!
Very nice presentation. I would like to see a discussion of failed cells, batteries, and associated hardware showing real-life examples.
Awesome Presentation !! Thanks !!
very good explanation, for me the best channel for technical information.
Wow, thanks!
Very very good show! Thank you. It will be interesting to watch you discuss the power delivery these packs can handle. Kw
Very informative!! Thank you 🙏
Great info he brings it all together! More on cell temperatures what is optimum for fast charging and power delivery and how the cooling system and heat scavenging works together.
Wonderful overview. A lot of connections made in my brain today.
Also ... nice pun .... Ohm's Law will certainly ground your understanding of how it all works ;)
Wonderful and clear explanation. Thank you.
Awesome work, thank you for your effort.
Where can I source a similar A-Frame with the mid level table as shown in the background @18:02?
Excellent information, thank you for sharing your knowledge.
My pleasure!
Outstanding content; love it Tom. “The tip of the iceberg” haha
Great vid Tom, congrats!
Excellent info! Thanks!
You bet!
What an awesome video. Please make the follow up to explain more!!
Tom really knows his stuff!
Munro is the real thing. All others annotation to it
Brilliant presentation sir
Thanks for an awesome video. So well explained
Glad you liked it
Awesome... really informative!! 👏👏👏👏
Great video. I was starting to think you all went away.
Very well explained video. Keep up the great work. 👍
No sandy is a great day. Thanks for diligence and zero ranting.
Very good explanation! Thanks!
Great video, good explanation 👍🏼
Thank you! 👍
Well done, detailed enough explanation. 2020s BMS technology. Cant wait to see the next Evolution of it...🎉❤
I didn't truly understand Electric Vehicles until I purchased my first Electric vehicle.
You learn a whole lot about them when you actually live with them. Far beyond the "reviewers" who simply tell you about initial opinions.
I love taking the mystery out of this since so many people have the wrong impression about the battery in an EV.
Great Video! I love to see the differences, especially the changes and improvements made over time. I would love to see a tear down video of the Tesla LFP battery used in the Model 3 RWD. Do you have any videos or pictures of that battery (cells/module/pack)?
This was an excellent session as I listened to it on my way to work this morning. Can you elaborate on the difference between the problematic 🔥BOLT batteries vs the updated units?
The Bolt battery pack we tore down was pre-recall. We haven't seen the post-recall Bolt battery pack to know for sure, but we've seen other GM packs that were post-Bolt recall. I would not be surprised to see that the post-recall Bolt pack has some added Aerogel layering in some strategic places.
@@TomPruchathank you!
Excellent and very informative. I would be interested to hear more about C rate and voltage sag particularly between the various Tesla packs.
Would love to see some of your suggestions about shape/size of cells & cooling pack designs to maximize efficiency, reduce casing cell material weight, and perhaps improve or reduce thermal runaway to smaller and smaller numbers of cells.
This was awesome. A friend of mine has a BYD seal with an 82KWH LFP battery, he claims he can get 500km useable range yet my model S with its 85KWH battery is good for 390km. Tesla service have advised me the battery health in my model S is 96% - excellent rate for a 9 year old EV. The car has never been super charged and the max charge for 99% driving is 70-80% and min never been less than 25%.
Great video! Thanks 💪🏻
Glad you liked it!
Great video, thank you. C rates, and the consequences of designing for high voltage and low current, and vice versa, would be really interesting.
Given the charge/discharge cycle & thermal changes that result in expansion and contraction of the cells and pack roll degradation over time, are there material choices in battery cell casings/rolls, cathode/anode materials that could further reduce or limit expansion/contraction damage, such as vacuum sealing cells, packs, modules, casings, etc, in order to improve efficiency of thermal management?
That's a big and complex subject, exacerbated by practical cost limitations, and the many different form factors and sizes of cells. As you can see in the videos, there are lots of methods that all compete to be best. Any and all of of those things you mention may help, but at what cost and weight penalties? Sorry for the non-answer, but it's the wild west out there. I personally look forward to the day the performance and durability wins over cost, but I don't expect that anytime soon. For example, with pouch cells you have a big copper tab on the anode that is highly thermally conductive and strings throughout the entire cell. Why not just extract the heat from that big copper anode tab? Well, because that tab must also remain electrically insulated from the other tabs. It is difficult (too expensive), so nobody does that, yet.
The main way to avoid physical damage is to reduce the charge range. For example stay between 20% and 80% of full charge, and your battery will love you forever. Not covered here is long term damage (ageing) of cells is from one-way breakdown of electrolyte. This happens at charge extremes. Having some externally applied pressure counteracts inefficiencies from physical separation of + and - sides.
This was great thanks.
Excellent detailed discussion, but the wide variety of chemistries and physical configurations begs the question about the inevitable standarization of battery packs. I want to buy an EV, but will I be able to swap to a better battery in a few years without dismantling the entire car? Will I be able to buy a third-party battery without voiding the OEM warranty (since competition should also drive down battery costs)? I'd like to know if there is any industry effort to create standard battery specs and allow interchangeability. Legacy battery makers like Panasonic and LG have already faced this issue that affects future mass adoption.
Outstanding work
Thank you very much!
AWESOME VIDEO!! Kudos
Inside the coolant tubes are there stamped and folded baffles to cause turbulence in the liquid flow like they commonly insert in Chrysler Aluminum U shaped Heater cores? These baffles are thin strip of copper with cut outs that are folded to make the strip 3 dimensional and stay centers in the fluid flow to cause the coolant to flow more slowly, and better transfer heat to or from the tube walls, depending on the temperature of the coolant.
Excellent info. Wound have been nice to see an approximate cell weight for each cell type listed in the spreadsheet. While weights of 18650, 2170 cells are known, it would have been nice to see how a LFP cell, or pack compares in weight compared to it's energy density. Perhaps a topic for a future video?