Seating Depth? might be worth a thought.
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2021
- Not saying to change what already works, but just worth a thought or may help a problem...as said maybe a test..
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"Jump is better than Jam" wise words from a mentor I learned years ago
Cheers
Yes!
I found the sweet spot in my barrel at 35k off, and the rounds could still be fed from the magazine if need be. 👍🏻 Loading your own can be fun when you actually see the difference it makes.
Yep, cheers
Finding that spot where the bullet hits the rifling square but has enough momentum (sorry Mark, have to correct you there) to squish into the rifling without excessive pressure is a thing only the handloader can provide for their rifle. Knowing your distance to lands is critical and don't go for max speed, unless it groups best at that powder charge of course.
Fascinating to hear the explanation of how the faster projectile (from deeper seating) creates less pressure hitting the lands!
I have been moving to longer bullet jump in my reloads with good results. And hearing you talk about 40, 50 even 70 thou is very reassuring given all the buzz about chasing the lands. Thanks M&S!!
Cheers
"If it won on race day then I've got to do the same thing" So true. So many people take others advice without vetting them. Most of the "popular" shooters giving advice on YT all agree with each other and are careful not to say anything that's is contrary to other channels in that genre. That's what I love about your vids. You do your own thing and do it so well you don't necessarily have to agree with anyone else. The proof of your viewpoint is in the target.
cheers Man, thanks
Excellent Vid MarkandSam. I love that you try different variables that go "against" the grain! The fact that 70 thou lowers the pressure is fascinating and important especially when developing max loads. Please keep up the excellent work, we'll keep watching and supporting. Much love from Arizona, USA.
Thanks Alecia, Cheers
Your knowledge is astounding!! Thank you for the video!!!
Cheers man, thanks
Another great video Mark. Thank you for the time, thought and effort you put into the videos.
Cheers Richard, thanks
Interesting. Never tried going with even more jump, but it makes sense after listening to your explanation.👍
Cheers Brian
Hear-hear, Mark! My 300 WIN MAG shoots a 210 grain VLD with 0.080" jump and gives 0.3-0.5MOA all day.
Yep, Cheers
Thank you Mark! Very helpful 👍💯🤝
Cheers man, thanks
Wonderful explanation for us mortals! Thank you Sir!
cheers Steve, thanks
Berger web site has an article about how they had a lot of complaints about a VLD 'not shooting'. They tested and found it worked fine at about .150" jump. Eric Cortina talks about one projectile that he loaded to .250" jump. Add to that that pressure jumps by around 7000psi at jam.
Cheers
Thank you. As I work up my loads. Several friends are die hard on the 10 thousand idea and practice. A couple do 20 thou. I find as you stated testing your load to your rifle is key. Your rifle it will tell you what it likes. Love your videos. Love your knowledge and experience. Be safe. Be happy. Have fun.
Thanks Shawn
Good information Mark!
Cheers
Thank you for the knowledge
Cheers
Wise words mate. Thanks.
Thanks John
Thanks Mark.
Cheers
Years ago I would work my loads up to shoot a clover leaf at 100.. now I just set my seating at spec and a touch more to the lands... I still shoot a quarter inch....
You have some fantastic videos for the newbie
Thanks Scott
A lot of people seem to over complicate things when it comes to reloading. Great Content Mark!
Thanks Jay
Found this to be very true with longer bullets in my semi-autos especially. That hard chambering seems to knock bullets sideways if they aren't seated deep in the brass.
Cheers
Handloads are like pharmacology or mixology. Can be precise matching of all components and R&D.
Or mix up a batch of Kentucky windage worthless cartridges.
Recently bought a box of name brand 300 winmag.
Overall length of the 20 varied by 15-30 thousands. Hand loading is a science.
Great work on your part Dr. Mark🎯
Thanks Man< Cheers
Great information. I personally do not chase the lands. I might adjust .005 in each direction, but that is it.
Cheers Jerry thanks
Good advice. It is hard to kill old rumor mills.
Cheers
Thanks mate more great info👍👍
Cheers
thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences on this Mark. Its an interesting topic. My limited experimenting also has produced some interesting results. Quite often magazines in my rifles limit tho COL so that you have to have quite a long jump with slender bullets if you don't want to single feed
Cheers
great video!
Cheers
Thanks again Mark. I noted some time ago that some youtuber's are getting good results with 70 thou and greater jump. I am still in my infancy with reloading and having problems with time because I have to travel to do any development.
Cheers Dave, all the best.
Cool great advice.
Cheers
Interesting stuff ! Good video
Thanks Scott
My 300 win mag shooting 200 grain terminal ascents love jump. I've also herd that all copper bullets tend to like more jump than traditional cup and core.
Cheers
Will definitely try seating my little vmax’s a fraction more!
Worth a test, Cheers
I appreciate that and respect that. I watched a lot of videos of 300 win mag reloading data, there was testing off the lands and jump and bigger jump, and I’ve always worried about my jump, because I have a tikka action, and they set the jump ridiculously high out of the box. How ever, I’ve swapped barrels, and put it in an mdt ess chassis, aics mags gave me a bit more room, 3.470, but it’s still a jump to the lands. The other video series I watched, said the jump was a good thing as well, too much and the speeds drop off, but all the numbers he ran were correlating to what I was able to do already. Major thing I noticed, is that his charge weights were way higher than mine, and I stopped at the first accuracy node I came across, that was 66.3 grains of h4831sc moving a muzzle velocity of 2740 with a difference of 7 fps and 3 of the 5 rounds were moving identical speeds. So, now I’m going to be looking for a better speed node.
Awesome, Cheers
I had a book many years ago about the large caliber naval gunnery development. They had barrels with a multitude of pressure sensors and used them to get the optimum powder charge and projectile shapes for long range accuracy. It was an interesting book.
Cheers
Worth a try cheers
Yep, Cheers
Ties up with a lot of other respected voices and very useful to know being new to bottleneck rifle reloading.
cheers
I have found that when I have flattened primers that I can look for that deeper accuracy node and have the load to stop flattening the primer. And with improvements in group size
Cheers
Mark, several years ago, when I was testing my new custom made 300RUM, I found that I was getting excessive pressure loading 200gn Accubonds close to my lands and grooves. After trying everything I could think of, I went to the SAMMMI specifications of 3.60 and loaded some at that level. That's a lot of jump but, the pressure went down and the groups got tight,just the opposite of the Berger 190's. I was loading at the time.
Yep, can be worth the test, cheers Craig, thanks
I agree. Gotta test it. Just found this out on my 28 Nosler. Went out to more jump 45k on a 160 grain SPEER btsp. Speed jumped up to 3404fps on less than full powder charge by .8 grains of H1000 and my groups shrank. .467" on 4 shots. All touching. Now it was pour luck that I found this but it was just by testing. So.. I agree totally. Never know what each rifle will like.
Yep, thanks Jack, Cheers
On my factory REM 7 7mm with hornaday match bullets in hornaday brass my ladder showed .030” jump with .004” neck tension was the most accurate. The neck tension changed the seating depth in comparison to overall accuracy. They go hand in hand. Tension leads to pressure.
Measurement is only part of neck tension, but sounds like you have all sorted, Cheers
Nice explaination sir👍👍🔥(first)
cheers
"...the gap between the ogive and the projectile". Thats what I wanted to know. Thanks mate☺👍
Cheers
Excellent info as usual. The more I learn, the more I find 'they' are usually wrong. Distance to the lands doesn't matter. What does matter is performance and that can be impacted to a significant extent by seating depth. Townsend Whelen was right!
Thanks Man, cheers
One of the features in Quick Load is a graph of the powder burn. There's a very early spike akin to a roller coaster that gradually reduces as the bullet travels down the barrel. The amount of jump tuned to that pressure curve I think is what we're chasing. I'd like to hear others opinions on this. Very good video Mark.
Cheers
Experimenting is the only way to determine what works best. So many get caught up in chasing seating depth. My .308 shoots well at SAMMI OAL so I set my die and leave it. Consistency leads to accuracy.
Thanks Pete, Cheers
It all depends on your chamber. Some are built for shooting on the lance especially in F class while others need a small jump
Cheers
I shoot a 260 rem 150" from the lands which at 100yd is a one hole 3 shot group, wouldn't group any closer, if i ran it at 10" there is hardly any bearing left in the brass as tikka barrels seem to have a very long throat.
Similar experience in my Sako 85 .270. Glad I am not the only one!
Yep, seen similar on some, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork This video has saved my sanity! I just started reloading for my Tikka T3X and I was trying to start at 0.020" off the lands as I've seen so many say to do. Well the throat is super long and I couldn't get close enough with the Berger Hybrids I'm using (and still have a comfortable amount of contact with the neck). I'm going to try at mag length and at a few different spots inside mag length and see how she does, cheers!
@@bigjeep127 That long throat is common on European rifles due to some older rounds for them used round nosed, heavy bullets... The upside of a long throat is that it lowers peak pressures a bit, which is good for case life....
@@KathrynLiz1 Yes! so it seems and is mostly the difference with 223 rem vs 5.56 nato chamberings I have been told
first !!!, naah, seriously, excellent tips and tech as always, love you folks :) Dave Jurien Bay
Thanks Dave, Cheers and all the best
Thanks, great logic. I get 1/4 to 1/2 inch 100 yard groups with my .270Win Tikka Mod 65 stalking rifle. Can’t remember the bullet jump, but off the scale in some peoples minds due to magazine length versus chamber, throat, barrel. As you say experiment, don’t assume that what works for the other guy works for you. PS , my experience in long range precision shooting is zero.
Cheers Paul, thanks
I now use 60 off 5 shot one tiny hole 300 yards. Plus zero throat arosion. 3/4 group u.
Cheers
My 338 lapua I stared at 0 worked back to bigger jump until it started opening up then came back forward until my pressure signs were where I wanted and it shot good
Cheers
I remember with my old Target Rifle using Hornady A-Max 80gn, I believed the person doing my reloading at the time gave me the right OAL when I started reloading, when I got my own OAL gauge I found it was wrong and I was running a 80thou jump and they loved it.. With my new rifle and Berger 85.5 or 90's I've found 5thou into the lands better. I tell anyone asking about reloading for their rifle you need to test, different projectiles can like different things through the same rifle and the same projectile can like different things through different rifles.
Agreed, Cheers Drakkon
Ive been reloading for years to fit my magazine without knowing how far off the lands i was, with .3 accuracy. After measuring it for curiosity its about 180 off for my .308, 170 off for the 6.5 creedmoor and .125 for my .223. Just gos to show you dont need to be as close as you think
Yeo, Cheers
If I have a conular I crimp at the very bottom of it... that usually always get me close enough to the lands.. years ago I used to shoot for grouping but now just load for hunting... and yes it makes a difference.. some rifles like jump some don't
Yep, Cheers
Exactly .... its not worth it chasing the lanse !!! The thing is with the equipment we have we'll never get it 100% right & then when we think we have it right everything changes again even after 100 rounds ... l think if you find a good node "stick with it "...
Cheers
I thought seating in the lands or close to them gives you more case capacity to use more powder at lower pressure ? I have not ran in to pressure personally seating in the lands or slightly off, I noticed my groups were better with smaller jump but it's all about bullet design and your harmonics I guess. Maybe I need more testing I am fairly new at this
If all good, leave it all be, just a suggestion, and testing will give you the answers, Cheers
@@markandsamafterwork I will definitely need to go back and test my understanding. I learn something new every day, thanks again for insights
depends on bullet, twist, cartridge, I had a 260AI that like .060 jump even .090...you just have to experiment,,,,use good bullets if you can find them..keep notes be meticulous or just buy a 6 dasher barrel for 1200 in and a 300wsm for on out there..2 very good shooting cases easy to load for if you have a good barrel....
It's like magic, I have no clue how it works, kinda, but it does. Went from 2 and 3 inch groups to 1.2 inch and then sub moa at 100yds, magic I say. And a bit of timing on bullet/barrel exit.
Lol, Cheers
What timing. I'm just about to go through this with my 6mm creedmoor
Cheers
I meet a guy who use to seat his bullets so they are jammed in the rifling lands when the round is chamberd. If round needed to be ejected unfired the bullet gets stuck in the barrel and the powder gets thrown everywhere.
Lol, Cheers
I saw Scott Satterly say that VLD projectiles like very little or very lage jump. I as having no real success with very little jump on my 6.5 so I just went to mag length which took it to around 100 thou. It shoots sub MOA now.
Cheers
I don't care where my lands are, I care about jam length as a hard stop and come back the shortest accuracy node I can find. You can then load longer as your throat erodes.
cheers Chris, thanks
I can't understand why so many can't "see" this. You're saying it in different terms than I would, but pressure = velocity = brass/barrel life = accuracy.
@@DenverLoveless I think it's because there is a persistent myth that close to the lands is more accurate. Most people don't realise that the lands are not a fixed point for a start.
@@chrismckoy3533 Granted your not making dangerous novice mistakes in loading; once you've found "your loading" longer = less pressure until you jam. shorter = more but don't use up case capacity unnecessarily with longer projectiles your barrel never was made to shoot in the first place.(off the shelf rifle) It's all variable depending on conditions. Temperature being in the top 5. Btw, I thought I was commenting in the main comment section, but it's all good.
@@DenverLoveless That is where I disagree slightly, the difference in pressure or case capacity even if you moved your projectile in/out 100 thou is trivial. This is more an issue when loading pistol rounds. Grab a copy of quikload and check out the data.
I was testing with different jump distances a few weeks ago and when getting close to the lands my rifle became very jumpy ( it’s an 8kg rifle) and loud, while speeds were slightly lower. It was just not comfortable to shoot so I went back to a greater jump distance
Cheers
Have you seen the new ELR muzzle loader rounds? Would be nice to hear your opinion or see you shoot some of those.
You need a muzzle loader rifle for those, so if someone wanted to sponsor the project?
Great info as always. I have started to use Erik Cortinas metod of finding and staying within a node. I think you would find his methods aligned with your findings.
Cheers 👍
Cheers
I watched several of Eric's videos and tried following his seating logic, then i realized I was only interested in hunting and not target shooting. My 85 Sako did not like the tight seating and preferes longer jumps... more velocity and tighter groups. Was thinking of Eric's tuner, and may end up getting one one day to try out. Too many re-loaders with too many opinions in a very narrow field. Mark and Sam have more to offer in their you tube videos than Eric, more claibers, more facts, more of everything!
@@BlueTJay I think Tikka/Sakos just seem to do better with some jump, they have pretty long throats and that appears to be by design. Obviously what Eric is doing works for him, but his guns are built differently. Proves the power of "trying it for yourself".
@@bigjeep127 10:4
Agreed, esp re Erik C and his info regarding harmonics 'nodes' and varying bullet seating depths - goes hand in hand with what's been said here - though understanding the harmonics then helps explain they 'WHY' of how varying the depths has the effects it does...
great video how do you determine your charge weight and powder... great stuff...
Reloading data from numerous places, we also have videos, use the search in the channel, Cheers
I bought a new Tikka 7mm Rem mag. I started my seating at 20,000 off. I got 10 mm groups at 100 meters. Then I loaded a few to fit the magazine they are 4 mm shorter than my "accurate" loads and guess what I still get a 10mm groups at 100 and Im still getting a 50mm groups at 500 meters. (160 grain Accubonds)
Cheers
I think you meant to say 0.020" off.
Mark, in regards to Jump, and having to single feed long loads cause they can’t fit in the magazines, do you find any benefit of single feeding using one of those purpose built single feed magazines? I figured if anyone knew , then you likely would know. For real, love your channel, have watched 100’s! Cheers
Never used on, some rifles/magazines need something to help single feed, most don't, Cheers
Exactly!!! I even used to bump the projectile back on factory ammo to get my mini 14 ranch rifle (rip 😔 thanks johnny) to group well, probably find that more than 50% of centerfire rifles love the jump, 👍
Glad you liked, Cheers
I had a mini 14 i couldn't hit any with it, but I didn't know that would make any difference
I have a 7mm 300WM some call it a 7mill practical... When It was build I put together a load using a Hornaday 162gr A-MAX which has been discontinued. A friend of mine that works at Hornaday gave me several boxes of the 162 ELD-X to ty when they first came out. I seated them to the same overall length to make sure it would still fit in my mag. Not knowing much about different bullets and their shape turns out my bullets are seated .112" off of the lands. Not actually sure what the original round (CBTO) was to for distance off the lands. That was almost 10 years ago and I seem to have misplaced my notes. The ELD-X shoots under 1/2 at 100 with that much jump. Not sure how much is too much jump but if its not broken don't fix it right?
Yep, Cheers
Funny how we have gone full circle on this. I guess old Roy Weatherby was right all along!!
All about finding what suits, Cheers
Hi there Mark, do you think this logic would also apply to the smaller calibers like 17rem, & 22-250 ??? thanks in advance, fred...
Probably, but as said...test, Cheers
I noticed that it repeats like pattern like if it shoots good at 50thou I had it shoot good again 120tjou jump I can’t say wich number everytime but it repeats ... my conclusion is I tune the timing when bullets leaves barrel and if they all leave it at the same time whatever that barrel is doing harmonics wise....
Cheers
Is that the Vision foreend I see?😃
yep, cheers
@@markandsamafterwork How do you like it?
Great upgrade, Cheers
I recently learned that secant ogive bullets are jump sensitive, and tangent shaped bullets are less sensitive to bullet jump. I am not so sure about the latter. Did you do some testing in this regard to date?
Videos to explain on the channel...How to find you answers/info on the channel ruclips.net/video/lWohyYEn-wc/видео.html
all my success in my rifles seem to come from 50-200 thou away from the lands!
Cheers
😀😲😀😊👍🏼
Cheers
But, but, but, but ...... max velocity may not be the sweet spot ..... hard to beat the old 2900 f.p.s. has been my experience.... oh I know this may start a fuss but that was my experience over the years but I do admit I am just an old man endoctrinated with the old ways ..... with new bullet designs maybe there is a different sweet spot..... jump is critical but most people cannot reload to specific specs even just with powder charge especially with various powders (bar, ball, fluff, etc) .... you sure do a great job
Yes, some do resist change, lol, glad you liked, Cheers and all the best.
@@markandsamafterwork LMBO ..... good stuff ..... you create monsters and meanwhile I sit and reload 32 g of IMR3031 ..... LOL ..... just an old man
Where all gett'n there, lol, Cheers
Seating depth: Are you trying to change the case capacity or the distance to the lands?
The lands and the node it likes.
Cheers
So what I gather is that the "rule" of 10 thousandth (or approximately short) jump being most accurate was (largely) scientifically arrived at using the previous generation of bullets. With the current generation of super-BC bullets with a lot more aerodynamic testing built into them, the old "rules" may no longer pertain and one ought to experiment with one's own rifle to gather the data necessary to judge if new "rules" might pertain to new bullets.
Anyhoo, interesting video as always.
Cheers Man, thanks
How far back is too far? Eg. Firing a 45/70 in a 45/120?
Not found a limit, Cheers