How to: Fine Tune Seating Depth
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
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My Labradar is equipped with a red-dot sight. Those sights are available here:
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In this presentation, I demonstrate my method for optimizing the tune of a long range rifle through testing and adjusting seating depth. Specific attention is on F-class style shooting, but the technique is equally appropriate for Benchrest, PRS, NRL, Hunting, or any other accuracy-dependent shooting sport.
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Shoots a better group than I’ve ever shot in my life: “well, that was terrible.”
He’s also using insanely expensive equipment and his reloading skills are fine tuned. He also knows this rifle really well
Keep at it you will get thete
Uh yeah..I drooled with those shots. Same thoughts lol.
Nuts! Jiminy! And other stronger words... This video is two years old and I have just found it! Thanks so much! Your video info is what I have come to understand. Nice to have it right up front and shown so clearly! Subscribed and liked!
One must always remember if you are changing the bullet depth you are also changing the capacity of the charge in the case by increasing or decreasing volume because the bullet depth changed. Many simple minded people don't even give that a thought. Bullet impact point could have as much or more to do with case capacity and volume of charge as the seating depth of which they are zeroed in on. Honestly 3 shot groups may be OK for starters but if you want to confirm anything it will be 5 shot minimum for sure. I have had many good 3 and 4 shot groups that have a bad flyer when you pump out number 5.
ok, so does changing seating depth cause a change in pressure? what in this process causes changes in accuracy with all other factors being the same?
@@RangerCaptain11A Bullet jump and the barrel, they're all individuals. Not to mention, pressure, humidity, temp., all have an affect
The process and explanation makes the video flow really well. Intuitive and interesting. You are easy to listen to and the info just makes scense. Thank you!
Great stuff Keith......thank you.
Me: "Omg, a half-inch group! Awesome."
WitW: "A bad flyer"
That is a level of precision I'm never going to achieve :)
This is what I aspire to, great video thanks!
"Are you going to try it? I won't try it! Let's give it to Mikey! He won't eat it, he hates everything. He likes it, Hey Mikey" 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for a great explanation. Think now I can go and work on a better than 0.21” group. 😁 The graphs are a fantastic way to compare the results by seating depth. 👍🏻
Subscribed...you laid this out exactly as it should be done...and very well narrated too.
at 8:20 you make an important point...."But is it tolerant"
Many bullets even customs are not all exact in overall length and in ogive to base measurements.
So yes it may shoot excellent but if one particular seating depth is not tolerant to bullet variations, then 1 out of 10 shots may throw a flier.
The fact you are checking this and pointing it out is outstanding.
Uh i
Even though you demonstrate with high end equipment, this technique can be applied to even a budget hunting rifle. You're playing with .003" at a time where I typically go .005" at a time but interesting things still turn up. My Savages like bullets .005 off, but I got a Steyr and it doesn't like the short jump, instead shooting best at .020" off. I had to chuckle when you said, "Nope, still terrible" with a group that most guys shooting factory ammo would be ecstatic with. I of course agree with you, when groups open up... that's terrible. Even though I'm not a competitive shooter, I still do everything I can to tune the rifle/ammo combination down to the smallest groups I can. Once done, that variable is eliminated and weather/shooter are the only variables remaining. The entire thing is a problem solving exercise that intelligent people enjoy tackling.
Ik some dumbasses who enjoy it too! It takes all kinds
I’m late to this party, liking your videos! What front rest are you using? How does it interface with your stock as I don’t see the rifle jumping up during recoil!
Excellent format. Thank you for the valuable content.
I leaned so much today a out seating depth and working off lands.I was having t d outlets with this yesterday.
Oh sweet and I'm so glad I found this channel
Welcome aboard!
Love the content. I'm in the beginning stages of learning precise reloading for benchrest shooting competition
Just watched a few of your videos and like your methods…..so I subscribed. Looking forward to seeing more, but in the meantime I’ll be watching some of your previous ones.
Always learning something from your videos. Curious as to the target that you used when you were fine tuning the seating depth. What was its source and name.
And I was ecstatic with a .247" group from a bone stock Winchester varmint in 22-250 with shelf ammo !!!!!!!!!! I loved watching , listening this video , Thanks .
If you're getting quarter inch groups at 100yds with what you have don't touch anything but I would try to buy more ammunition from the same batch number
You should be!
Just found your channel. You have a great presentation, and straight forward substance. Thanks, Sub'd
Where you're limited to factory mag length on a hunting rifle can you overcome seating depth testing with powder charge variation or component changes like primers?
Yes, you can...VERY GOOD question.
I have found that once I find a primer that works well and is consistent....I keep the primer then.
Experiment by adjusting the powder charge in 2/10 to 3/10 increments.
BUT, you can also work backward in seating depth and seat the bullet deeper to adjust seating depth if limited by Mag Length
Most likely you wont have to adjust more than .040" deep from Mag Length to see difference or improvement.
For instance .308 mag length being 2.800"
it may shoot better at 2.790"
Just go max COAL and work down .003” down from there until you find a node
New subscriber. Great video. What is the front gun stand you are using, and adjusting?
Wow, this information is invaluable! Thank you for the trade off. As Warren would say everything is in constant flux, one can only be generally right some if the times.. great stuff.. subscribed.
Interesting! I dont need this kind of accuracy for what I do but this is some good content for sure.
Way above my pay grade but very interesting. Thanks for the effort
What method do you use to determine how far off (or in) the lands you are,? Cortina “jam”? Hornady OAL Gauge? Dummy rounds and closed bolt? I’m curious how confident you need to be when”starting” at 0.15 off for example? Can you miss a node by measuring wrong time start?
Let me see if I can whip something up. I need to do a video on that.
@@winninginthewind Thanks, and sorry for the typos. Meant to say if you measure wrong to start…
I've tested 3 methods of determining my length of contacting the lands
1) OAL gauge
2) Dummy round with closed bolt
3) Bullet drop into chamber
From my fiindings, I find that the dummy round and OAL gauge both give me the same result (given a 0,001" variance between the two). The bullet drop into chamber gives me about a 0.002" longer measurment as the bullet is left to drop with gravity into the lands rather than pushing the ogive against the lands with the OAL gauge and the bolt close method.
My humble opinion is that contact with the lands is the max distance a bullet could be safely seated out without signs of excessive pressure, taking into account you worked up a safe powder load at that seating depth. Anything away from the lands from that point is of no concern unless you develop pressure signs as you seat the bullet deeper into the case.
For what it's worth, I take the measurement making contact with the lands (or max magazine length should I choose to shoot follow up shots rather than single shots) and work my way down in 0.006" increments with 2 shot groups until I find 2 bullet holes next to- or cutting each other. Then I would seat 2 bullets 0.003" out and 2 bullets 0.003" in to see if I there is a seating node from that group.
Seating nodes usually show within 0.006" increments. If components are of no concern, then you can do 0.003" increments, but if you are like me who tries to be frugal and still achieve good results, 0.006" will get you the same results, just faster with less components spent.
Well, in my experience I should say😅
Thanks you for the video!!
I thought you were a young dude till I heard the Mikey reference. Good stuff man!
Love this video
Great video Mate very interesting , I’m in the process of load development myself Steve from Australia
Always so much good information.
Thanks for my morning chuckle by leaving the "Benny Hill" style walk down to the target and back in the edit 😂
This one with the powder one are magic 🎩. Am going to the range in the morning to verify, what I'm looking for. Cheers again from dss 43
I would like to learn how to do all that I've invested a lot of money in a 65 PRC but I have no idea how to start the process
What kind of rest do you have there
Im probably way behind on your videos.
In general…..where do you start with seating depth?
Also, what is your favored method of measuring initially.
One more thing…do your 2 and 3 shot groups give you enough info to be confident to compete?
Thank you. Very succinct and well done production. We appreciate you!
Keith, did I hear you right, .015 into the lands with a VLD ?? How do you push any bullet into the lands? Even with maximum interference neck to bullet , won't my bullet push deaper into the case as I close the bolt. Please help me to understand your statement. Thanks.
Pro tip, if you like having the range to yourself definitely go in the fall and winter. To deal with the wind and precipitation I recommend shooting 50 BMG, far less affected.
LOL
Fantastic. I love to see all the new stuff coming out on video into the world. Ppl actually making this stuff public. And the fact that you pointed out the into land start with vlds👍🏻👍🏻 great video man gonna check out your other stuff. Let me ask you do you utilize the full node spread documentation and transition from both ends based on temp/pressure etc? I used to find I can chase a node a bit knowing hotter equals faster equals shorter still in node etc. you bothering with that?
Not sure if that makes sense but what I mean is I always did development well tried to always and only did it on flat calm etc but mid temp days. Found both ends. And then if I went to a shoot and it was a bit colder I’d start with longest stuff first at sight in. And had maybe another .009 further sets to go in that direction based on the state temp etc. covering expectation of change in fps and getting out of the node I mean. Do you have outside of node stuff ready for faster slower conditions?
Yes, I keep "Plan B" with me, so to speak.
Nice
thanks for sharing! regards from the less and less free Europe. (history repeats itself)
Making same hole groups and being unhappy with them….seriously? Your insane. Could it possibly be your hold? No one holds perfect time after time.
Calling your rifle Mike😂 only aged people can identify.
Because Mike will eat anything.😅
👉🇺🇸👈👉⚰👈
Where can buy those flat ammo containers?
A few people have asked! No reply!
I wish you had a bunch of .308 stuff going on here. I know its an antiquated system at this point but its great to me. I guess most of this stuff works no matter the caliber...
Fantastic thanks for sharing your video , I subscribed.👍👍👍
Thanks and welcome
What an interesting video and so well presented (thank you for that).
I am in no way a competitive shooter. I was was with muzzle loading clay targets.
Now 70Yrs old, I like to hunt and as I'm on a budget my calibre is small (243Win).
I really like / enjoy reloading, but seating depth has been puzzling for me.
My Tikka T3X Aspire likes a 90grn ELD-X Hornady bullet.
Over 42grn of powder my rifle likes (Hodgdon H4350).
But I am sure it could be better!
I believe the bullet is a VLD.
But I have never heard of seating into the lands!
I don't crimp my bullets, so being over Ojive, won't that push the bullet back into the case when it is chambred?
I am trying to be as accurate as I can, for the sake of the animal.
I haven't played around with seating much; I'm 10thou away from the lands.
I've just purchased a micro adjusting stem for my seating die and plan some testing.
Being VLD, where should I start with my depth please?
Looks like you shoot at Cascade. Any chance you want to mentor someone?
Ok, but one question, I have Sierra bullets what don't have at all the same lenght on tip (190gr SMK for .300wm). my ideal lenght and charge for a good OBT is 85.15 mm and 78.52 gr of Ramshot Magnum. But if I not use a comparator for measuring my overall lenght of my cartdrige on tip, all haven't the same lenght at all but on comparator I have 0.01 mm difference. If OBT is good in a specific bullet lenght and seating depth (internal volume is quite good I think because on comparator my seating depth is really close to the same) if the bullet on tips are not the same, can be a problem to have a good node ? I also check all my bullet on comparator because I have differences on comparator too (close to the 1.5 mm). The easy way could be to drop this bullets but I still have 400 of them lol. I will move to monolitic bullets (EU will full ban the lead... soon...) and this one are all the same at 0.01 mm on tip and 0.000 on comparator but seems to be more difficult to find the magic solution to shoot well. If you have an idea or a feedback to solve my problem, I take it ;)
Also can you go over rifle handling. I'm a high power shooter with FClass dreams haha. I shoot a cheap rifle. Savage axis 2 precision and like to think I'm getting good groups 5 shot group 3 bullets in the same hole but 2 flyers. at 300 yards yesterday. 47.2gr cfe 168 speer 2.830 oal. But i feelvits my fault they all weren't in the same hole.
What powder are you shooting? h4350 or h4831sc? And What trigger source are you using with your labradar?
These are shot with H4350 and I'm using a JLK inertial trigger.
@@winninginthewind ok thanks you
Shoots less than a 1/4” group.. “welp.that’s not good”
Me: proud of my 1/4 rifle 😔
Hello. I just subscribed to your channel. Great info! So do I figure out my powder node first then do the seating depth test? what is the correct way to do this?
That's the way I do it.
I'd like to see how you're set-up to seat your bullets to such a small variation of seating depth at the range,
Not knowing the bloke personally, I would assume the day before using a Redding micrometer seating die and micrometer to confirm the adjustment he started at 15 thou from the lands then progressively increased the jump 3 thou then labeled 3 rounds separating each group in the ammunition box for the next day, not trying to be rude why reload in the field when you can do it at home with everything at hand and in comfort
@@infidel202 You could be correct. It just seems to me that after shooting the first rifle without a cardboard backing he started over. So, did he come with more bullets seated .020 off the lands then he intended to shot. If so, did he do it for all three rifles? Not likely. He stopped on one rifle testing after 2 shots because "it wasn't going to get better" . So did he go home and pull the bullets on all the cartridges for all three rifles that he didn't end up shooting?
I'm guessing he loaded a batch of bullet to max length all with the same powder charge. Then brought an arbor press to the range and seated 3 bullets to whichever length he wanted to test next. Three different barrels with 3 different length chambers. And, not knowing where he's going to stop. It just seems simpler to seat them at the range.
@@BLR81708 hey Tom,a few months ago I brought a 22.250 and a .17 hornet not knowing where the lands were I brought a packet of each factory rounds ,while zeroing both scopes at 100yds and firing 6 shots in each through a cheap chronograph to get a velocity to work with for loading and a zero, I then reloaded the cases and seated the pills out 5 thou and 10thou at the same time starting a grain lower than the adi powder reloading data stated ,I used the chronograph and increasing the propellant by half a grain until I gained the same velocity as the factory rounds while shooting for groups l found the 22.250 almost in the same hole 60 fps slower than factory and just into the lands worked the best, .17 hornet was 5 thou off the lands and 150fps faster than factory with a quarter inch group.I ended up 25 thou out for 22.250 and 12 thou on the .17
You can feel when you close the bolt if the pill is in the lands, another way is drop a pill in the barrel lightly push it from the back just enough to make contact with the lands, measure from the crown of the barrel with a cleaning rod to the tip of the pill mark the rod remove the pill close the bolt put the rod back in until it contacts the bolt face mark the Rod and measure the distance between the marks, now you have a very close idea of overall length to the lands, load three rounds at the length and three either side of it 3thou in and out, which ever is more accurate adjust another 3thou until you find the sweet spot, I reload at home away from wind and contamination from dust and use a micrometer to double check the die and write down velocity, load, length from the ojive to the head of the case and accuracy what propellant, primer and projectile and weight.
Hope that helps and I don't sound like a know it all as I'm still learning, the more I learn the more I realize I'm only just beginning to learn
@@BLR81708 Oh and if I could shoot as well as this bloke I'd be as happy as a pig in shit 😊
I wish I had enough powder and primers to do this kind of test.
Do you have a prediction of what your groups would look like with a SAAMI COAL? I'm assuming your tests at the longest distance from the lands is still longer than the SAAMI COAL?
Correct, I am running much, much longer than SAAMI COAL for the 284 Win. I would not be able to even get the bullets into the case that far if I tried. The 180 hybrid is designed to stick out the front of the case too far for that. Competition 284 chambers are very different from the SAAMI chamber, giving us the ability to run so long. The downside is that a magazine-fed rifle would have to have a long action.
What kind of rest is that?
SEB Mini-X
What do you consist feasible jump tests in a cartridge that's going to rape the lands with every shot? 28 nosler.... just find a sweet spot for jump in .030 increments?
You know, most hunters would sell their soul for the worst accuracy you show here.
Hello... I know this may be a waste of time asking, because I see a ton of comments and questions that never receive a reply, but just in case you might reply, I was wondering what the brand of front rifle rest you are using..?
Where can I buy a front shooting rest like yours.?thank you
Newbie question. Node what is it . Is it velocity and group at a certain powder charge ?? I am just loading for varmint hunting and preferably want accuracy over high end velocity if that makes sence or is there a happy medium between the to?
Seating depth and powder charge are connected ya say ... but ya dont say why..its barrel harmonics!..if your bullet isn't exiting in a netural or relaxed state your group will drift.. so timeing is the key to one hole...
Thank you for another great video. We should only work with thousands place and not worry about the 10 thousands place?
Thank you in advance
I've always wondered as we change seat depth do we maybe change how we push the bullet into maybe an offset from centerline. I often rotate my shell as I push it in as often as 3x. Seems to help at least in my blonde mind. I'm a Lil ocd
I like your shell holder. Where did you get that?
I’d like to know as well!
How far should I start of the rifleing tikka 243cal hornady 87 g v max 👍
@Winning in the Wind you mention that you can't change load without changing seating depth in the beginning of the video... but not further knowledge on that in the rest of the video?
wow, what kind of rest is that? looks really nice.
My Service rifle loves hot loads. 25.2 h335. With a 69smk
Just getting ready for load work up with my .284 Wheeler. I really enjoy your content and detail
What is the name of that vise or stand you use to shoot from
You look more comfortable shooting that black stock rifle. Does that thing ever shoot, good stuff
Hey! I love he channel. How do these rifles slide back like that? I've seen it time and time again and it looks as if its on a rail
With eld bullets you said you start 15 in the lands, do you work in further from there? Or work out? I'm just getting into eld-x hunting rounds.
Ah! The cardboard. Of course!
On your gray stocked rifle, you have a great seating depth on target #3, but nothing good on either side of it. That would be worrisome to me. Any change in atmospherics could make it non-competitive. I will follow along and see what your thoughts/measures you have to deal with this.
Great video, as usual. Thanks!
Hi Mike,
Excellent observation. I would never shoot that one small group in there, instead, I would accept the little bit of vertical on the #4 target. it is just barely over .200"
As I stated, the powder charge is outside of the node. What you are observing is an artifact of that situation (the ES was 16 for some 3 shot groups). It cleans up nicely when I bump the charge up to where it wants to be. That change in charge may well change the optimal seating depth, as described. I'll explain that in detail in a future video.
I agree with you on competitiveness for mid-range. Around here, we get multiple shooters shooting all-day cleans, so giving up anything on the tune is risky. On the other hand, long-range F-class matches aren't necessarily won by the smallest shooting rifle. I've herded more than one poorly shooting rifle into the 10 ring enough to win. I will say, it's much easier when I have a well tuned rifle.
Thanks for supporting the channel!
@@winninginthewind Thanks. I had forgotten that you were not shooting the charge, that gun likes.
When you don't fire the rounds do you pull them if so how do you and what do you do with them sighters?
Hey mate where would I find one of those fancy tripod you use? Cheers lucas
What do you mean by weather report? As in wind giving you horizontal?
I have watched this video several times. It is clear that seating depth affects group size, but why? Is it due to a change in the case volume from one length to another? Or, is it merely something dealing with the jump of the bullet producing a certain harmonic as opposed to the harmonics produced by the powder charge? Thanks for another great video!
While there are many people that will try to authoritatively tell you why something is, they fall short in the evidence department. I can only offer conjecture and repeat what other have said. Instead, I choose to not guess, and instead only attempt to understand if what we are seeing is real or just the consequence of random chance.
@@winninginthewindyes, I appreciate that. I guess at the root of my question is how much influence does the case volume have cf the seating depth. My brain tells me something is there, but I lack the depth to understand it. As with many internal ballistics questions…. We may not have an answer. Thanks again for the response. Maybe an idea for a video would be your history and development of how and where you started to where you are today. I know you’ve touched on parts of it, but I for one would love to hear your shooting history and how you developed. Again, thank you!
Not sure what all the fuss is about really.
I don't watch videos of precision bench shooting too often. Boy, that's a nice shooting rest.
Keith, what is your favorite barrel contour?
Happy to be here, subscribed!
Welcome aboard!
Keith, you talk about things like temperature that can affect the tune but no one has talked about whether they load for a particular climate they are going to be competing in. Is this something that’s done? I’m sure when you travel to shoot, you preload all your ammo other than maybe seating depth. Thanks for your videos.
Yes, most of us make small changes to our pre-loads for differing climates.
Any impact of the crimp of the bullet? Do you do a push pull test?
I don't even know what a push-pull test is.
Did you day you liked to start Hybrids at 0.015" off jam? And then increase jump by 0.003" steps?
Yes, except it is .015" off of touching the lands. Jam is a funny term that means different things to different people.
Great video..are those targets you used available online?
Everyone needs to like these videos because he is low key Houdini!
What is the bipod thing you’re using what’s it called?
Generally referred to as a front rest. It is a staple of F-class competition in F-Open class. That one is made by Sebastian Lambang. The model is the SEB Mini-X. Hope this helps.
Upside down target. PSYCHO!
3/10” is ‘ugly’ 😳!
So if you wanted to tune a rifle at 100 yards, powder charge is found with velocity node and seating depth tuned by group size?
Then, as throat erosion occurs over the life of the barrel, is seating depth always a moving target?
Not always. In my 284, I remain at the same seating depth for the entire life of the barrel in most cases.
How do you know how far you are off the lands when you first start
Let's see a 20 shot group
When starting a new round, witch do you work with first power load or bullet setting depth. for accuracy. I'm a beginner
I think most people will start with finding the best powder load with the bullet seated at either Max COAL (Cartridge OverAll Length); or if you want to get fancy, follow Eric Cortina's method of finding "Jam" and backing off .020". Once you've found the best powder and charge weight for your rifle and bullet, then start at .020" off Jam, and seat the bullet lower in .003" increments every three rounds. When you determine the two best accuracy nodes (aka the 2 best adjoining groups), you want to work around those two seating depths to fine-tune.
Awesome stuff!!!
thank you. Your bad are better then mine, i have much work to do.
What to do first. Fine tune seating depth or powder charge?
I do powder first.
I am curious what tool you use to get precise seating depth. I've been using Forster BR dies, both micrometer and standard and neither seats the bullets to the same depth everytime. In using a caliber specific RCBS Precision Mic to measure ogive OAL. I'm using either SMK or Nosler Competition Match bullets so perhaps the bullet variation is too blame. You mention using an arbor press. Does this offer more precise seating? Or should what I'm using suffice but I need to mic every projectile for ogive length for any seating method to be precise?
Thanks for any thoughts on this.
I have 100yd range (w/200yd max) so I'm trying to get bug holes at 100yds, 1/4 moa.
I use Wilson dies. Nothing is perfect, but they work for me.
What trigger's do you prefer? It appears there are no safety's on your triggers? Are trigger's with a safety not required in F-class?
I like the Bix N Andy triggers. Safeties are not required in the F-class rules. I think that's because NOBODY that shoots very much at all believes a safety is actually a safe way to handle a loaded rifle. I personally would NEVER move a loaded F-Class rifle with or without a safety. They only get moved or handled (except when actually firing) with the bolt open and a chamber flag installed.
Calls a triangle group with little paper between shots 'horrible'....this is the guy I want to learn from. I need to try some seating depths for my rifle now. Sure I won't shoot one-hole groups but may bring it into .5moa or .7 moa for my applications.
I am planning to do a factory rifle load development video in the future (Mid-August). I'm sure that thing won't shoot as well as my match equipment. Would that be of interest?
@@winninginthewind Very much interesting, yes.