I have been weighing 22's for the past couple of summers. The "fliers" were driving me nuts. What I found is there seems to be a difference in weight of the loaded, ready to go, ammo. In one ammo from 100 rds I found that there was a difference of 1.1 grains from lightest to heaviest. From the Hornady Manual, .03 grain is about 50-100fps difference. With the small load for the 22 this would make a really big difference. From 100 rds I got in the middle, 25rds and 26rds weighing exactly the same. The light ones hit low and to the right, the heavy ones would hit high and to the left. The ones weighing the same were the one hole wonders. All 22rf ammo is manufactured in BULK, based on this, the powder charge is a little funky. The ONLY way to get real accuricity is to weigh your , factory or handload ammo and it doesn't matter the brand or manufacturer of 22 ammo either. The light ones I use for pest control, the heavies, PSD, the middle ones in matches. In other words.... You can take crappy ammo, weigh it and get Match Ammo. I need a Bucket of Bullets, to run over my Hornady Powder Scale.
Thanks man! My videos are getting better, learning along the way. Only been at it for a couple months and I've got 440 Subscribers. I'm glad you like it and thank you for letting me know. It's comments like this that make it all worth while.
Kudos for having a stable shooting platform! Way too many card table experts out there that have "shooting platforms" that actually move under 22lr recoil. Then they expound on shooting ammo, gun variables. Geez.
There are 2 things that affect how accurately the bullet travels given that the barrels are all high grade barrels #1 is the consistency of the powder in each 22 case and #2 would be how uniform each lead bullet is considering that even the smallest amount of lead difference can make the bullet spin erratically and the faster you spin the bullet the more likely you are to see inconsistent shot placement. The trick would be to match the spin with the distance you are shooting. Now there would be a reason for a long barrel and that would be by the time the bullet traveled the length of the barrel the bullet would more likely conform to the barrel and maybe become more uniform by the time it exits the barrel.
Biggest factor for accuracy is the distance your shooting in 22LR Cal. Followed by subsonic v supersonic rounds. Matching the rifle and ammo with the distance you are shooting is key. With my CZ 457 at 100 yards it can shoot Norma TAC 22 (black box) under .500 MOA 'consistently'. But it doesnt at 300 yards. The CCI Velocitor shoots about 6 in group (1.313 MOA) at 300 yards 'consistently'. Standard CCI at 100 yards had to many flyers for 'consistent' accuracy.
Thank you for getting back to me. I put a Leica Amplus 6 on my 7rem mag at a cost of $2.200 Canadian The glass is great you would have to spend $700 to $1500 more on a Swarovski to get a bit better. But if I could get a good scope for less than 1/2 it would be great. Thank you for your reply
Glass by Leitz is one of the world's better kept secrets I had a pair of Leitz 7X50 Binoculars until they were stolen at a camp ground in Eugene Oregon. Those glasses turn night into day like magic.
I saw another youtuber sorting rounds by the bullet diameter and surprisingly there was a few thousandths difference on many types. Maybe not too much spread on velocity as your test already has shown but the rifling twist stability may vary in this respect due to a better hold in the valleys but also may have a varience in groove depth from rifling causing more or less spind drift/drag. Also concentricity could play a part but that could also be weeded out in the variables if need be. Maybe could accommodate for the obvious lack in projectile quality/consistency. Very interesting testing. Will be checking out your other stuff on the .22 lr testing. Great stuff.
Thanks, yeah there’s so many factors that could cause a flier. You would think it wouldn’t be so hard to identify. But with the .22 round manufacturing being so automated it’s not surprising they can be so inconsistent. Some manufacturers are way worse then others. Depends how often the check the settings on the machines I suppose.
Great series including the Norma Match. I shoot a Bergara B14R/ Arken SH4 and I have a large assortment of 22lr ammo. I don’t shoot Eley Tenex (too expensive and my rifle doesn’t like it) Lapua or SK Match. I’ve tried all the mid-range ammo and Norma Tac22 sorted is my go to ammo. I bought two bricks of the Norma Match, sorted them and the only difference I found between them and the Tac22 was the spread but if you shot same weight rounds you got good results. I have several Rimfire rifles and they all prefer certain ammo but the Bergara/Norma Tac22 is my round of choice. Ask my shooting buddys, they moan and groan about getting beat each week with cheap ammo. I tell them it’s skill but it was just finding a good rifle/ammo combo that works for me. I recently bought three bricks of SK Flatnose Match, reminds me of Thunderbolt for $100 per brick😢
Fascinating hobby ! I've been into this 3 months now and You're great at explaining ins And Outs of What Works. I suppose a bare bones 'Spec' rifle with decent .22 ammo is absolutely absurd. But a KIDD or CZ using Lapua Match is almost obscene ... Almost ! Thanks for 'Keeping it Real !'
@@RimfireSS agreed but it’s a close call with my b14 that’s also a sweet shooting rifle. The vudoo just sits in the cabinet. I get her out once in a while but these two see 99% of the action
I think you have the right method. I've learned that what you want is to keep those rounds that have similar weight and rim thickness together for consistency. And by all means DON'T mix lots.
First thing I learned years ago is that domestic, US made ammo, is crap if you are looking for consistent precision. Eley has always been the most consistent, Lapua a distant 2nd. The best you can expect from sorted ammo, to include sorting by weight or rim thickness, is to eliminate some flyers. I found this to be the case across Vudoo, Tikka, Ruger, and Anschutz platforms. I shoot with a group of guys that shoot Savage, Tikka, BSA, Winchester, and Anschutz. All have migrated to low end to mid-range Eley.
@@vincebelmonte7710 I agree with vincebelmonte!!!~ One factor I have yet to see mentioned is drive ring consistence. Using a Lapua or an SK 22LR round, measure the drive ring (N/S/E/W) for consistency; measure the overall length for consistency.
Great Data & info. I was planning sorting Federal AutoMatch because it is good for the price. Sometimes it really surprises me the groups I get. I have close to the same rifle as you however not the trigger group,yet. I have some SK Rifle Match I’m saving. Perhaps I will set my scope to it & CCi standard. I prefer 835-1200Fps .22 Ammo. CCI Quite Semi Auto, CCI Pistol Match, (ELEY Tenex, ELEY Match when I can fine them reasonably priced), RWS Norma Match 22, Aguilla Standard, Remington Standard, & Federal Standard/AutoMatch. The hi $$$ ammo does prove its point for sure. If a guy can find a close performing lower cost alternative that’s the win we all need honesty. My friend at work makes his own & says it groups very well @ $0.03 a round. I’m looking into making my own like he does sometime soon I hope. Great Video, nice shooting & Awesome Rifle!!
Weight could be brass thickness, load, primer material, bullet or combo. Rim thickness could be charge or brass lots. I'm sure most of us know this. Rim thickness could change C.O.A.L., bullet jump etc. You definitely have the right idea about ammo manufacturers and quality control. Even quality manufacturers lots are different. Why most serious .22 rimfire shooters lot test ammo. I'm no expert or expert shot but experience trying this in the past gave me insight to where this was headed. I shoot CCI standard through a 10-22 build I did some time back. Lapua Midas, Center x, Eley tenex, Eley match, Ely team, most suprising was Wolf Match Extra! It has an E on the head stamp like Ely. Probably made by Ely. Anyway I also found out cleaning or shooting several rounds, not my choice with price, made a difference in groups when changing ammo types. Different lubricant I suppose. I normally shoot centerfire long distance. I built this 10-22 with a Volquartsen carbon fiber barrel, Volquartsen trigger, Archangel adjustable stock and I did some work on the bolt myself also. This rifle I built for my son. It's not gonna shoot with built bolt rifles but this little guy, given I do my part, definitely suprised me. I have trouble finding the Wolf. You would think given the E stamp Ely of some type would be the same. It stacks those Wolf Match Extra impressively. Nice testing! Keep'em coming! New Sub.
You sew right on. To see what a wast of time weighing 22 ammo is, try the following. Weigh several live rounds and note the weights. Then take that many fired cases of the same box and weigh them. You will never weigh 22's again !
I have a Custom Joe Chacon 10/22 and a Custom Shop Ruger 10/22 that won't even chamber CCI Standard Velocity. Have never tried it in my Vudoo but might have to just for the heck of it. But I have two Volquartsen pistols and a Pardini SP pistol that shoot great with it. My Pardini will shoot one-hole groups with it for some strange reason. I love not having messy oily cases to deal with using CCI, unlike nasty SK!
I came to the exact same conclusion over 15 years ago after 1000s of rounds with every different ammo I could get my hands on. As a matter of fact with my particular build " 10/22" it come down the the cheap Remington subsonics grouping every bit as good as all the match ammo I shot.. My only complaint with the Remington is you get some that just don't have the rim completely filled all the way around with primer or no primer compound at all . I was called out multiple times at the local range on my claim and sent more than a few home with their tales tucked . Great vid and accurate information. Old KY fan here
Yeah, I fell off the wagon and sorted some for another video and this ammunition did seem to be more consistent the way I sorted it. But still wasn’t worth the time invested. lol I’m done this time… for sure… lol
Shooters have been trying for decades to figure out how to make cheaper 22lr ammo shoot as good as the high dollar stuff along with unlock the secrets to why one rifle shoots lights out with brand xxxx but yet a different rifle just like it will not shoot the same ammo with anywhere near the same accuracy of the other rifle the ammo was shot in. Basically the manufacturers take the ammo that is produced that is the most closely matched to the ideal specifications and that is what is binned as the highest priced stuff, then the next lower group is the next more varied spec group or maybe closer to one spec extreme or another that affects consistency on down the line until the worst of the production run that is still serviceable ends up in the bulk cartons of several hundred loosely packed rounds for the cheapest cost. But anything that is assemble on a production line will have variances that still get by QC so even the best rimfire ammo is not perfect. CCI SV ammo you hear a lot of people with out the box decent factory rimfires state that it shoots pretty good groups at 50 yards but you hear that same claim very seldom for 100 yards. If a person wants to shoot cheap ammo with good results then it seems buying or seeking out a rifle with a close tolerance match chamber lessens the chances that combination will be happy with other.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not bashing CCI and I hope it didn’t come across that way, it’s awesome for it’s price. I just don’t see the benefits of sorting, some people have had good results doing it. I would just rather buy match ammo instead of trying to make match ammo from something that was never meant to be match ammo.
I love the loose bullets in the Thunderbolts. Had a lot of Golden bullet that had loose bullets also, you know the ones that feel loose when your loading them. To me that’s probably the best way to identify fliers or junk ammo that never should have made it to the shelves. Just had some Tac22 that was like that in my tac vs match video, loaded all the loose rounds in one magazine and the tight rounds outshot the loose ones by a lot. Check it out.
I know your not bashing cci but I also know for the money it's hard to beat the sv. You were getting 1.4 to 1.5 moa and true match was what ? .7......yes you get what you pay for but dollar for dollar it's hard to beat.
I sort rim thickness into roughly 8 lots of rims. Typically .038 to .042. I use a Raven Eye Custom gauge, and a 1/2" throw digital indicator (.0005 range) with a flat tip not the point that typically comes on the indicator. Most Aguila 40gr. lrn ammo I sort runs in the .040 to .041 range. I find sorting ammo does help with fliers. I shoot a kyl rack at 50 yards and have pretty good luck with the smallest target once I get a good wind read. Typically I use Sk or Lapua shooting the rack at 100 yards, the difficulty level at 100 yards is much greater, and I do find match ammo does shoot better, I do see a difference with better ammo, I shot nearly 9-10k rounds last year, no way could I have shot that many using match ammo, the cheap stuff gave me a whole year of enjoyment and trigger time
Sir! I agree 100% with you. Is not worth the time or the effort, as you clearly stated for $4.99 that’s the best we are going to get. One ammo that I have been impressed by is Aguila Super Extra 40gr copper round nose, it has G1 coefficient of .161 for a $4.99/50. Today at the range I managed 1.6 inches at 100 yds on a 25mph gusting win, really windy day here in North Carolina, using a Keystone Arms KPT722.
Have you stated what chronograph, target cam,software you are using? I apologize if I have missed it. If you have not, I think it would make an interesting video. Thanks again for doing these videos.
In my testing weight and rim thickness works best with bulk ammo have seen dramatic results with bulk ammo... but like you not so much with quality ammo HAVE A BLESSED DAY
After I finally got some Standard Velocity, it totally changed my opinion on my Rem.597. We went from 3" to 1 1/2" at 100 and I'm pretty sure we can do better!
Yeah just like any rifle, that 597 has ammunition that shoots best in it. Try some Eley match or some SK long range match and I’m sure your rifle will shrink them groups even more.
@@RimfireSS hopefully I'll get to the range this weekend, sight in the new 6-20×50 and try some TAC22 that I've never shot. Thanks for the encouragement!
@@chrislang5659 I’ve had mixed results with the Tac22 and the Norma match also. But the match is more consistent and worth the extra buck or two they charge for it. I use tac for the times I don’t need pinpoint accuracy, like steel match or doing drills with my AR22. And I use match in my bolt guns or anytime I need a more consistent ammunition. Now with that said, I’ve had a lot or 2 of match that has been some of the best shooting ammunition I’ve ever shot but more lots that were not that great. Norma farms out there production of the .22 to a couple different manufacturers and you can really tell by accuracy which lots were made by RWS. They actually shoot.
Just started watching your videos. I enjoy them 👍 Noticed you use Arken and Tract scopes Whitch one has the better glass Can you see bullet holes at 200 yards and beyond. And how does the glass compare to Swarovski and Leica glass Appreciate your opinion. Thanks
The Tract scopes are much better then the Arken but at 3 times the cost they better be. I think Tract is hard to beat and competes with the high end scopes quite well. Honestly I’ve never spent a lot of time behind a Swarovski to give you a opinion, but I can tell you every time I look through a Tract I’m impressed. The Arken performs way above its price point and you can see .22 holes at 200 with both scopes but the Tract you can see the detail of the hole. Thanks for watching, and I appreciate your kind words on the content. I’m gonna keep making them as long as I can afford it. Finally getting some help from manufacturers and that’s awesome. Hopefully my Patreon will pick up so the cost on me isn’t so much. It’s terribly expensive to make firearms content.
My 457 stacks shots with SK Match. If I get into NRL22 I’d use that for matches and use the CCI Standard for practicing, plinking, and teaching the kids how to shoot.
Just about everybody talks about how great CCI SV is but I’ve never thought it was anything special. It’s an interesting experiment and a good video with the only conclusion is that it’s good plinking ammo and not worth sorting. I still have some and shoot it at a 50 ft indoor range (in the winter). Just about everything should shoot into one hole at 50 ft but of course we’re shooting offhand and no, I can’t put any ammo into one hole groups! lol, wish I could!
I’ve been loading a lot of magazines lately and I noticed quite a few “loose” bullet, like the crimp wasn’t done right. Been setting them aside and getting way better results with feeding and accuracy. Shot some CCI subsonic yesterday that half of the rounds were that way. Seems that might be a better indicator of a flier then anything. When I don’t care about shooting tight groups I’ll use the loose rounds then.
@@RimfireSS Someday (I know there is no such day) I’m going to do a test with some of my SK Standard. It shoots great out of my Kimber HS and should have the most obvious results because it shoots so well. The test is going to be single load without the magazine vs loading from the mag. I’ve often thought that loading from the mag could scrape off enough lube from one side of the bullet to make a difference but I’ve never taken the time to run the test. I need to mount a different scope before I do it though. The one I have has a 10 yard to infinity parallax (non adjustable) and it’s hard to shoot good groups with it. I’ll put that scope on something that won’t matter so much, like my CVA Scout in 44 magnum, lol!
@@jimbo3615 I really don’t think a small amount of lube scraped off one side would make any difference, only because once the barrel is seasoned it takes quite a few shots from a different ammo to un-season and then reseason the barrel to the new ammo. If that makes any sense? But who knows you could be on to something, only way to find out is try it. Good luck
@@RimfireSS Yeah, it makes sense about the barrel seasoning but…. It’s also taking some lube off the nose that doesn’t contact the rifling. Next time I’m out with the Kimber, I’m going to do this test. Just 5 groups of each should be enough to see a difference if there is any. I need to do some shooting anyways…. 🙂
Elk County guns has the cz 457 mtr for 825$ in stock. Best gun on the market for the money. I glass bedded mine and changed the trigger spring. I am a top contender in the factory class 50yds.
No, I just gave up on it actually. My results were not worth the time involved. Going to try something else now. I bought a .22lr crimper. You know how when you load rounds and the bullets feel loose? We’ll I’m gonna try crimping my ammo. Maybe a loose crimp is causing fliers, lowering pressure causing low impact rounds. Idk, when I reload 450 Bushmaster if the crimp isn’t just right it makes a huge difference. So I’m just trying to think outside the box for better shooting ammunition.
The problem is: weight sorting assumes that bullet weights are the same - but it doesn't. 0.3gr difference in powder is about 10% of all powder in the round, but 0.3 grain is less than 1% of the weight of a bullet. I don't think that bullets cast that precisely. When you don't know what is the reason for the difference in weight - that kind of sorting doesn't make any sense... any kind of sorting doesn't make any sense in that situation.
I found out that it doesn't matter. What matters is finding the right ammo for your rifle. My CZ happens to enjoy SK and Wolf. Too bad they stopped making Federal Gold Medal Match.
Absolutely, I don’t care what you do, with .22lr you will never eliminate the fliers. So ammos have more then others and it varies from rifle to rifle.
I have several rifles I use for different things. I have a 10/22 set up for a small game. I have an AR22 I use to train with on the cheap. Love shooting steel with my Henry, but most of the 22s are paper punchers. I'm going to be doing a 6arc build here soon, I'm working with a manufacturer, so I'm waiting for parts to get here. Also, I am working on a place where I can stretch its legs out. Most ranges in MI are 300 yards max, so it will have to be private property.
Thats interesting, i have a savage a22r varmit and i use cci mini mags and cci stingers and have had no problems at all with accuracy and consistency. Maybe its a bad batch of ammo you got? I tried the cci standard velocity sub sonic and they were ok to 50 yards but to 100 they were all over the place. I only use the mini mags and stingers now,i dont bother with the sub sonics.
@@Whitchhunter666 nope,i know i cant understand it myself .Its the exact same thing with my wifes ruger precision. 22 LR,she used sub sonics to 50 yards and no problem but at 100 yards the groupings were terrible.
@@Whitchhunter666 factory ammo is shit,unless you buy the top of the range stuff like ELEY ect. I weighed a few rounds to see if there was a big difference with consistency and its way out. Out of a dozen rounds of cci mini mags there was approximately 6 that had the exact same weight,so 50% would be different grain weights with the powder and projectiles. With that amount of inconsistency your not going to get hole in hole at any distance.
@@MEDCANWhitewidow that's because the bullet is too fast breaking the sound barrier, it becomes unstable after 35-40 yrds. I only use subs for this reason. I get one hole groups at 50 with Aquila LRN
@Shannon Fritsch no I don't agree,as I said the factory ammo is shithouse unless you are using eley or top shelf quality factory target ammo. I do understand that projectiles are unstable at that 1000fps but accuracy is also about consistency with bullet powder weights and projectile weights-cci factory ammo is far from consistent, in fact its about 50% consistent so you will not get consistent groupings at any distance when bullet charge grains are not the same. I reload all my own ammo except .22 cal but if I was doing competive shooting I would be either doing my own .22 loads or buying ELEY or other top shelf quality. 22 ammo.
Has anyone weighed spent Brass, I wonder if that contributes to the difference in weight round to round. Which there’s no way to fix it but if the casings vary in weight that means the powder and lead are very consistent.
I have been watching you for a few months now. One thing I have noticed when I am out at the range is that one ammo might shoot lights out at 50 while really sucking at 100 and visa versa. You shoot a lot of CZ rifles. In the cheap ammo my CZ's like Federal Auto Match and even CCI Standard for 50. CCI sucks for 100 which you found out. The fliers you get at 100 will barely show up at 50. I weigh and use .001 gram scale. If I am checking weight on CCI, I can put a bullet on a bullet at 50 but be all over the place at 100. Now CCI will outshoot Federal Auto Match at 50 but the groups are acceptable. Now at 100, Federal will outshoot the CCI, by a lot!! I recently bought some Aguila competition match and weighed 500 rounds of the 1000 I bought. Many people have reviewed that ammo and said its far from being competition ammo. Out of 500 I got 90 that weighed 3.200, exactly. They ran 1010 ave fps with an sd of 6 to 8 per 10 rounds consistently. Again, they shot lights out at 50 but sucked at 100. I brought out some Aguila HV 1255 ammo and it shot great at 100 at moa or just a smidge over or under but couldnt hit the broad side of a barn at 50. All I am saying is the main thing I see, by weighing, I get less fliers and my groups are tighter with any brand of ammo. I have watched many of your videos and you have a killer group going and then comes the flier. You are a good shot and use good ammo and still get fliers. If you want a good test of weighing, pick your favorite 100yd ammo and favorite 50yd ammo, that your gun likes, and weigh out 500 rounds of each. Take the highest number of rounds with the exact same numbers of each and use those for your control group and compare it against groups you shot with the same type ammo in the past. If they arent consistently smaller averages then you are right. My groups have been 2 to 3 tenths smaller with very few, if any, fliers.
I’ve done weighing and sorting every which way you can. And what I’ve found is a very small difference in groups and fliers, but there was a difference. To me it’s not worth the time involved. Especially when you can’t control the variance in brass weight, projectile weight or propellant charge in the rim. While I was able to get a few less fliers .22 ammunition manufacturing is not conducive to absolute precision. I now have decided to accept it for what it is, I spend my time and money on better more consistent ammunition and accept the occasional flier as a unfortunate characteristic of the platform.
@@RimfireSS I guess, because I am new to sorting, I havent gotten there yet. I have had your same conclusion with reasoning on other things like, I'm a mechanic. I can do roofing and my house needed a roof. I can make more money doing mechanic work and paying someone to do the roof and not have to work as hard with a fan blowing on me instead of on a hot roof with the sun beating on me. I might get that way with sorting too. Its really a shame that people spend thousands of dollars on their guns, only to be at the mercy of the bullet maker as to how well they shoot. You have a great channel and I love watching and learning from you.
@@mlone7 it really is a shame. But all and all there still pretty good. Especially once you find that ammo that absolutely hammers. Problem is once you do, the next time you buy it, it’s a different lot and might not shoot as well. Pretty frustrating really but that’s all part of it.
The way I see it, sorting only by weight has way too many variables. The case, the charge, and the projectile could all affect the weight. So I want to try and sort by rim first, eliminating that variable, then sorting by weight. Because I've heard that the case alone can vary in weight quite significantly. I know sorting twice would be a ton of work, but in the country of Belize where I'm from I can't even buy match grade ammo at all. So I'll do whatever I can with sorting. Anyone tried this before?
Man that sucks! At least the weather is good. Some people swear by rim and weight sorting. I’ve never had any luck, we’ll anything that made it worth doing anyway. What ammunitions do you have available there? Can you get Eley Contact? That’s a great shooting non match ammunition.
@@RimfireSS At this point I shoot mostly CCI 40gr mini mags. And out of 20 shots my SD is 22, so yea that's disgusting. At this point there are only 3 brands available, Augila for bulk ammo, S&B hollow points, and various CCI loads. Nothing near match grade or even the Eley brand. The weather is great of course!
@@RimfireSS At this point no, but we have our first rimfire competition coming up soon. So I plan to speak our local supplier to see if more variety could become available for the future.
I shoot 5 dollar a box (sorted) Aguila 40gr lrn at my kyl rack at 50 yards (100 yards too but not very often a clean run). The smallest target is 1/4", are you saying sorting isn't viable? The issue is finding match quality ammo I can afford, as I end up mail ordering all my match ammo, I prefer sorting a 5 dollar box vs buying a 20 dollar box, if it is available. I own 2 cz's, and a vudoo
Nope not saying that at all, Must be something I’m missing because people say they have good results doing it, it just didn’t work for me, maybe it was the ammo I was using idk. Just didn’t seem worth the effort.
@@RimfireSS I have only found match ammo one time at a store 40 miles away, the rest I mail order, if it can be found. I am mostly looking for Sk and Lapua, but I may try Eley as it seems more available. I agree, with match ammo you may not need to sort, but 5 dollar ammo it sure helps, maybe if its just a psychological thing
@@wowguy3562 trust me, I’m not hung up on any brand or price. If it shoots good in my rifle I’ll buy it. A flier here and there is part of the game with .22 unfortunately. From what I’ve seen a super good quality barrel and action make things easier but your still gonna get fliers. Just part of it I guess. This .22lr rabbit holes pretty deep. Lol
@@RimfireSS Oh I have jumped feet first into that 22lr rabbit hole, I never thought the ammo would be the thing that was the hardest part, sinking a large chunk of change into my rifle, it dawns on you you will be putting roughly 1600$ into a case of 5000 rounds for good ammo, when you can find it
I'm not good enough to worry about sorting by weight... but if I did, my luck any weight difference would just end up being the amount of lube on the bullets rather than difference in charge.
@@RimfireSS It doesn’t matter. Guys will just tell you to sort the expensive stuff too. I’ve been getting into the .22lr world the last few months and I’ve come to the conclusion that the most deciding factor in accuracy is how cool you think your rifle looks lol. I have an 18” Ruger American Rimfire and it loves CCI SV. I haven’t tried any other ammo though because .3” 5-shot groups at 50 yards (if I do my part) is hard to beat at any price per round. I understand lot consistency is a real thing but it’s working out well so far. Nice shooting man!
I suggest, finish the group then speak. You fired 4 shots then you speak meanwhile barrel is cooling off and your mindset is not same THEN group opens up. 😀
Hey, it’s hard when you have a thought, sometimes if I don’t let it out I’ll forget what I wanted to say. Lol, I’ve tried to not speak during groups but it’s proven a hard habit to break. But thanks for the heads up. 😬
Yup, kinda funny when the crono numbers were so far apart yet the impacts were right next to each other. Been alittle flustered with Ammo lately, SK has been pretty spotty, had same lot box to box shoot differently. Lol, just when u think you found the “right” ammo then the next time I buy it it’s crap. .22LR can be a very frustrating endeavor.
I sort, best I have found is a Raven Eye Custom using a Digital 1/2" throw indicator (.0005) accuracy with a flat tip on the gauge, bought from amazon for roughly 55 dollars and change, now I think you may need to buy the raven eye directly from them, I believe I have sorted 5k rounds, maybe more, it takes approx. 8 seconds a round to sort, so slightly more than 5 minutes per box of 50. I like the digital readout its easy on my old eyes
@@Whitchhunter666 I used the 223 case first, I believe that is the easiest way to start sorting, as most have access to a empty 223 and a digital caliper, but the raven eye custom is so fast and is actually easier than the 223 shell and I believe more accurate, I have no affiliation to raven eye custom, I am an end user and just enjoy the 22lr experience, almost like hand loading except starting with pre made ammo and trying to get the most performance from each round
....when sorting by rim, I go from thin to thick, - .035's, .036's, .037's etc.,etc., ..... how ever you measure - sort/group the same numbers together by the thousandth's in order & shoot accordingly, I believe the results may show ......"alittle" better, but in conclusion, I have found sorting to be a waste of time,....it's very much a waste of time like a tuner except for the difference in concept. Ammo quality/Rifle quality & pairing is what it takes for best precision consistency. Seems nowdays - high cost of ammo only increases precision marginally, yet cheap ammo groups like a shotgun,....lol....22LR will be 22LR.....alittle bit of luck goes a long ways....lol
I hear you, I’ve have found no matter how much you spend on a rifle your ammunition is going to determine just how accurate it is. Now some rifles with these 1.25 barrels have less harmonics so they shoot more ammo more better but hell I have a $250 savage mark ii that I did some work on that shoots just as good as some of them expensive rifles. But I had to do some work to get them there. Lead lapping was the main thing. Shoots lights out now. Video soon to come.
Why CCI at all. Too expensive for plinking and too ineffective for 'target' shooting. It's simply junk ammo. So many other affordable options worthy of consideration long before picking up a box of CCI as last resort.
@@marw1920 I used CCI because it is so inconsistent, and if sorting was so effective it should have weeded out the bad rounds giving better results. But it really didn’t.
@@RimfireSS Love what you do on your channel - good details and analytics. Big fan. Of note, MarkandSam Afterwork are fans of the CCI Velocitor ammo for ELR shooting in 22LR cal. They have some good CZ 457 video on consistency at 300 yards with 24 inch target. 1.313 MOA (about 6 inches) with 10 shot group at 300 yards. Some damn good shooting with 22LR trainer.
I shoot 50 yard bench rest. My 1st season. Most people lot hunt Lapua center x. I have shot decent with sk plus and rifle match. I have won several tournaments this year.
@@seanbrown7954 SK is probably the most consistent match ammunition IMHO. I’ve had great results with rifle match and long range. Although Eley seems to do better beyond 100 yards.
I've shot a .380 at 100 with sk long range match. Blue collar reloading in Salisbury N.C just got a shipment of sk ammo in today. Lookm up online and get some before they sell out. That sk plus for 7.95 a box shoots amazing in a cz. I've won tournaments with that cheap ammo.
Wow that's a Beautiful Big back yard ! Alot of unknown very ables, that sure explains why the odd ball shots ! GREAT DATA REPORTING !
Thanks 👍
I have been weighing 22's for the past couple of summers. The "fliers" were driving me nuts.
What I found is there seems to be a difference in weight of the loaded, ready to go, ammo. In one ammo from 100 rds I found that there was a difference of 1.1 grains from lightest to heaviest. From the Hornady Manual, .03 grain is about 50-100fps difference. With the small load for the 22 this would make a really big difference.
From 100 rds I got in the middle, 25rds and 26rds weighing exactly the same. The light ones hit low and to the right, the heavy ones would hit high and to the left. The ones weighing the same were the one hole wonders.
All 22rf ammo is manufactured in BULK, based on this, the powder charge is a little funky. The ONLY way to get real accuricity is to weigh your , factory or handload ammo and it doesn't matter the brand or manufacturer of 22 ammo either.
The light ones I use for pest control, the heavies, PSD, the middle ones in matches.
In other words.... You can take crappy ammo, weigh it and get Match Ammo.
I need a Bucket of Bullets, to run over my Hornady Powder Scale.
False 😆
Fantastic groups and experiment to watch, you saved me the hard work of doing the same test.
I use CCI standard velocity ammo exclusively. It's easy on the guns, accurate and reliable.
I like your honesty
Some people don’t like to hear it… lol
Just stumbled on to the channel love it. I'm sure the channel will grow fast best of luck
Thanks man! My videos are getting better, learning along the way. Only been at it for a couple months and I've got 440 Subscribers. I'm glad you like it and thank you for letting me know. It's comments like this that make it all worth while.
Kudos for having a stable shooting platform! Way too many card table experts out there that have "shooting platforms" that actually move under 22lr recoil. Then they expound on shooting ammo, gun variables. Geez.
There are 2 things that affect how accurately the bullet travels given that the barrels are all high grade barrels #1 is the consistency of the powder in each 22 case and #2 would be how uniform each lead bullet is considering that even the smallest amount of lead difference can make the bullet spin erratically and the faster you spin the bullet the more likely you are to see inconsistent shot placement. The trick would be to match the spin with the distance you are shooting. Now there would be a reason for a long barrel and that would be by the time the bullet traveled the length of the barrel the bullet would more likely conform to the barrel and maybe become more uniform by the time it exits the barrel.
Biggest factor for accuracy is the distance your shooting in 22LR Cal. Followed by subsonic v supersonic rounds. Matching the rifle and ammo with the distance you are shooting is key. With my CZ 457 at 100 yards it can shoot Norma TAC 22 (black box) under .500 MOA 'consistently'. But it doesnt at 300 yards. The CCI Velocitor shoots about 6 in group (1.313 MOA) at 300 yards 'consistently'. Standard CCI at 100 yards had to many flyers for 'consistent' accuracy.
This saved me a lot of time and effort! Thank you. Sir! 🖖
Thank you for getting back to me.
I put a Leica Amplus 6 on my 7rem mag at a cost of $2.200 Canadian
The glass is great you would have to spend $700 to $1500 more on a Swarovski to get a bit better.
But if I could get a good scope for less than 1/2 it would be great.
Thank you for your reply
The Tract Toric 5-30 runs about $1695 US and the 5-25 runs about $1250 and there a lot of glass for the $$!
@@RimfireSS thank you for your reply
Glass by Leitz is one of the world's better kept secrets I had a pair of Leitz 7X50 Binoculars until they were stolen at a camp ground in Eugene Oregon. Those glasses turn night into day like magic.
I also have the Leica HDB 3000
Binoculars with range finder
They are very bright and clear.
I saw another youtuber sorting rounds by the bullet diameter and surprisingly there was a few thousandths difference on many types. Maybe not too much spread on velocity as your test already has shown but the rifling twist stability may vary in this respect due to a better hold in the valleys but also may have a varience in groove depth from rifling causing more or less spind drift/drag. Also concentricity could play a part but that could also be weeded out in the variables if need be. Maybe could accommodate for the obvious lack in projectile quality/consistency. Very interesting testing. Will be checking out your other stuff on the .22 lr testing. Great stuff.
Thanks, yeah there’s so many factors that could cause a flier. You would think it wouldn’t be so hard to identify. But with the .22 round manufacturing being so automated it’s not surprising they can be so inconsistent. Some manufacturers are way worse then others. Depends how often the check the settings on the machines I suppose.
Great series including the Norma Match. I shoot a Bergara B14R/ Arken SH4 and I have a large assortment of 22lr ammo. I don’t shoot Eley Tenex (too expensive and my rifle doesn’t like it) Lapua or SK Match. I’ve tried all the mid-range ammo and Norma Tac22 sorted is my go to ammo. I bought two bricks of the Norma Match, sorted them and the only difference I found between them and the Tac22 was the spread but if you shot same weight rounds you got good results. I have several Rimfire rifles and they all prefer certain ammo but the Bergara/Norma Tac22 is my round of choice. Ask my shooting buddys, they moan and groan about getting beat each week with cheap ammo. I tell them it’s skill but it was just finding a good rifle/ammo combo that works for me. I recently bought three bricks of SK Flatnose Match, reminds me of Thunderbolt for $100 per brick😢
I agree that our skill is only limited by the ammunition, and if u can improve this shortcoming, why not.
Fascinating hobby !
I've been into this 3 months now and
You're great at explaining ins And Outs of What Works. I suppose a bare bones 'Spec' rifle with decent .22 ammo is absolutely absurd.
But a KIDD or CZ using Lapua Match is almost obscene ... Almost !
Thanks for 'Keeping it Real !'
I have the exact same rifle and the Norma tac22 shoots extremely well to 100y Great video. Thanks
Of all the rifles I own it’s my favorite. The stock just fits me like a glove and it just looks cool. Thanks for watching.
@@RimfireSS agreed but it’s a close call with my b14 that’s also a sweet shooting rifle. The vudoo just sits in the cabinet. I get her out once in a while but these two see 99% of the action
@@22lr_plinking I’ve got one of those myself. Lol you can’t have just one.
I think you have the right method. I've learned that what you want is to keep those rounds that have similar weight and rim thickness together for consistency. And by all means DON'T mix lots.
First thing I learned years ago is that domestic, US made ammo, is crap if you are looking for consistent precision. Eley has always been the most consistent, Lapua a distant 2nd. The best you can expect from sorted ammo, to include sorting by weight or rim thickness, is to eliminate some flyers. I found this to be the case across Vudoo, Tikka, Ruger, and Anschutz platforms. I shoot with a group of guys that shoot Savage, Tikka, BSA, Winchester, and Anschutz. All have migrated to low end to mid-range Eley.
I agree Eley SK lapua the rest is for blinkers
@@vincebelmonte7710 I agree with vincebelmonte!!!~ One factor I have yet to see mentioned is drive ring consistence. Using a Lapua or an SK 22LR round, measure the drive ring (N/S/E/W) for consistency; measure the overall length for consistency.
Great Data & info. I was planning sorting Federal AutoMatch because it is good for the price. Sometimes it really surprises me the groups I get. I have close to the same rifle as you however not the trigger group,yet. I have some SK Rifle Match I’m saving. Perhaps I will set my scope to it & CCi standard. I prefer 835-1200Fps .22 Ammo. CCI Quite Semi Auto, CCI Pistol Match, (ELEY Tenex, ELEY Match when I can fine them reasonably priced), RWS Norma Match 22, Aguilla Standard, Remington Standard, & Federal Standard/AutoMatch. The hi $$$ ammo does prove its point for sure. If a guy can find a close performing lower cost alternative that’s the win we all need honesty. My friend at work makes his own & says it groups very well @ $0.03 a round. I’m looking into making my own like he does sometime soon I hope. Great Video, nice shooting & Awesome Rifle!!
Try the Eley Contact. Shoots great for $5 a box. You will get a flier once in awhile.
@@RimfireSS ok great, thanks, do you know where i may find it at that price here, in the land of 10,000 taxes?
@@joshbrekke6374 killoughshootingsports.com
Weight could be brass thickness, load, primer material, bullet or combo. Rim thickness could be charge or brass lots. I'm sure most of us know this. Rim thickness could change C.O.A.L., bullet jump etc. You definitely have the right idea about ammo manufacturers and
quality control. Even quality manufacturers lots are different. Why most serious .22 rimfire shooters lot test ammo. I'm no expert or expert shot but experience trying this in the past gave me insight to where this was headed. I shoot CCI standard through a 10-22 build I did some time back. Lapua Midas, Center x, Eley tenex, Eley match, Ely team, most suprising was Wolf Match Extra! It has an E on the head stamp like Ely. Probably made by Ely. Anyway I also found out cleaning or shooting several rounds, not my choice with price, made a difference in groups when changing ammo types. Different lubricant I suppose. I normally shoot centerfire long distance. I built this 10-22 with a Volquartsen carbon fiber barrel, Volquartsen trigger, Archangel adjustable stock and I did some work on the bolt myself also. This rifle I built for my son. It's not gonna shoot with built bolt rifles but this little guy, given I do my part, definitely suprised me. I have trouble finding the Wolf. You would think given the E stamp Ely of some type would be the same. It stacks those Wolf Match Extra impressively.
Nice testing!
Keep'em coming!
New Sub.
You sew right on. To see what a wast of time weighing 22 ammo is, try the following. Weigh several live rounds and note the weights. Then take that many fired cases of the same box and weigh them. You will never weigh 22's again !
I have a Custom Joe Chacon 10/22 and a Custom Shop Ruger 10/22 that won't even chamber CCI Standard Velocity.
Have never tried it in my Vudoo but might have to just for the heck of it.
But I have two Volquartsen pistols and a Pardini SP pistol that shoot great with it.
My Pardini will shoot one-hole groups with it for some strange reason.
I love not having messy oily cases to deal with using CCI, unlike nasty SK!
I came to the exact same conclusion over 15 years ago after 1000s of rounds with every different ammo I could get my hands on. As a matter of fact with my particular build " 10/22" it come down the the cheap Remington subsonics grouping every bit as good as all the match ammo I shot.. My only complaint with the Remington is you get some that just don't have the rim completely filled all the way around with primer or no primer compound at all . I was called out multiple times at the local range on my claim and sent more than a few home with their tales tucked . Great vid and accurate information. Old KY fan here
Yeah, I fell off the wagon and sorted some for another video and this ammunition did seem to be more consistent the way I sorted it. But still wasn’t worth the time invested. lol I’m done this time… for sure… lol
Shooters have been trying for decades to figure out how to make cheaper 22lr ammo shoot as good as the high dollar stuff along with unlock the secrets to why one rifle shoots lights out with brand xxxx but yet a different rifle just like it will not shoot the same ammo with anywhere near the same accuracy of the other rifle the ammo was shot in.
Basically the manufacturers take the ammo that is produced that is the most closely matched to the ideal specifications and that is what is binned as the highest priced stuff, then the next lower group is the next more varied spec group or maybe closer to one spec extreme or another that affects consistency on down the line until the worst of the production run that is still serviceable ends up in the bulk cartons of several hundred loosely packed rounds for the cheapest cost.
But anything that is assemble on a production line will have variances that still get by QC so even the best rimfire ammo is not perfect.
CCI SV ammo you hear a lot of people with out the box decent factory rimfires state that it shoots pretty good groups at 50 yards but you hear that same claim very seldom for 100 yards.
If a person wants to shoot cheap ammo with good results then it seems buying or seeking out a rifle with a close tolerance match chamber lessens the chances that combination will be happy with other.
Nice little study. Thanks for taking the time. Looked like a nice day shooting.!
Every day you can shoot is a good day. Lol, it was a nice summer for shooting.
Go get some Remington thunderbolt and you'll appreciate that cci sv alot more
Don’t get me wrong I’m not bashing CCI and I hope it didn’t come across that way, it’s awesome for it’s price. I just don’t see the benefits of sorting, some people have had good results doing it. I would just rather buy match ammo instead of trying to make match ammo from something that was never meant to be match ammo.
I love the loose bullets in the Thunderbolts. Had a lot of Golden bullet that had loose bullets also, you know the ones that feel loose when your loading them. To me that’s probably the best way to identify fliers or junk ammo that never should have made it to the shelves. Just had some Tac22 that was like that in my tac vs match video, loaded all the loose rounds in one magazine and the tight rounds outshot the loose ones by a lot. Check it out.
I know your not bashing cci but I also know for the money it's hard to beat the sv. You were getting 1.4 to 1.5 moa and true match was what ? .7......yes you get what you pay for but dollar for dollar it's hard to beat.
I looked for the video on the tac vs match but can't find it. If you can send the link I'd like to see it. Thanks
@@robertruf9778 ruclips.net/video/ock32YkL0aY/видео.html
I sort rim thickness into roughly 8 lots of rims. Typically .038 to .042. I use a Raven Eye Custom gauge, and a 1/2" throw digital indicator (.0005 range) with a flat tip not the point that typically comes on the indicator. Most Aguila 40gr. lrn ammo I sort runs in the .040 to .041 range. I find sorting ammo does help with fliers. I shoot a kyl rack at 50 yards and have pretty good luck with the smallest target once I get a good wind read. Typically I use Sk or Lapua shooting the rack at 100 yards, the difficulty level at 100 yards is much greater, and I do find match ammo does shoot better, I do see a difference with better ammo, I shot nearly 9-10k rounds last year, no way could I have shot that many using match ammo, the cheap stuff gave me a whole year of enjoyment and trigger time
Sir! I agree 100% with you. Is not worth the time or the effort, as you clearly stated for $4.99 that’s the best we are going to get. One ammo that I have been impressed by is Aguila Super Extra 40gr copper round nose, it has G1 coefficient of .161 for a $4.99/50. Today at the range I managed 1.6 inches at 100 yds on a 25mph gusting win, really windy day here in North Carolina, using a Keystone Arms KPT722.
I shot some Aguila subsonic 40 grain a few videos ago and it did decent at 💯 Think it was around 1.3”
Have you stated what chronograph, target cam,software you are using? I apologize if I have missed it. If you have not, I think it would make an interesting video. Thanks again for doing these videos.
In my testing weight and rim thickness works best with bulk ammo have seen dramatic results with bulk ammo... but like you not so much with quality ammo HAVE A BLESSED DAY
After I finally got some Standard Velocity, it totally changed my opinion on my Rem.597. We went from 3" to 1 1/2" at 100 and I'm pretty sure we can do better!
Yeah just like any rifle, that 597 has ammunition that shoots best in it. Try some Eley match or some SK long range match and I’m sure your rifle will shrink them groups even more.
@@RimfireSS 🫡
@@RimfireSS hopefully I'll get to the range this weekend, sight in the new 6-20×50 and try some TAC22 that I've never shot. Thanks for the encouragement!
@@chrislang5659 I’ve had mixed results with the Tac22 and the Norma match also. But the match is more consistent and worth the extra buck or two they charge for it. I use tac for the times I don’t need pinpoint accuracy, like steel match or doing drills with my AR22. And I use match in my bolt guns or anytime I need a more consistent ammunition. Now with that said, I’ve had a lot or 2 of match that has been some of the best shooting ammunition I’ve ever shot but more lots that were not that great. Norma farms out there production of the .22 to a couple different manufacturers and you can really tell by accuracy which lots were made by RWS. They actually shoot.
Just started watching your videos. I enjoy them 👍
Noticed you use Arken and Tract scopes
Whitch one has the better glass
Can you see bullet holes at 200 yards and beyond.
And how does the glass compare to Swarovski and Leica glass
Appreciate your opinion.
Thanks
The Tract scopes are much better then the Arken but at 3 times the cost they better be. I think Tract is hard to beat and competes with the high end scopes quite well. Honestly I’ve never spent a lot of time behind a Swarovski to give you a opinion, but I can tell you every time I look through a Tract I’m impressed. The Arken performs way above its price point and you can see .22 holes at 200 with both scopes but the Tract you can see the detail of the hole. Thanks for watching, and I appreciate your kind words on the content. I’m gonna keep making them as long as I can afford it. Finally getting some help from manufacturers and that’s awesome. Hopefully my Patreon will pick up so the cost on me isn’t so much. It’s terribly expensive to make firearms content.
My 457 stacks shots with SK Match. If I get into NRL22 I’d use that for matches and use the CCI Standard for practicing, plinking, and teaching the kids how to shoot.
Sounds like a well laid plan Bill, teach them Kiddos well my friend.
Just about everybody talks about how great CCI SV is but I’ve never thought it was anything special. It’s an interesting experiment and a good video with the only conclusion is that it’s good plinking ammo and not worth sorting. I still have some and shoot it at a 50 ft indoor range (in the winter). Just about everything should shoot into one hole at 50 ft but of course we’re shooting offhand and no, I can’t put any ammo into one hole groups! lol, wish I could!
I’ve been loading a lot of magazines lately and I noticed quite a few “loose” bullet, like the crimp wasn’t done right. Been setting them aside and getting way better results with feeding and accuracy. Shot some CCI subsonic yesterday that half of the rounds were that way. Seems that might be a better indicator of a flier then anything. When I don’t care about shooting tight groups I’ll use the loose rounds then.
@@RimfireSS Someday (I know there is no such day) I’m going to do a test with some of my SK Standard. It shoots great out of my Kimber HS and should have the most obvious results because it shoots so well. The test is going to be single load without the magazine vs loading from the mag. I’ve often thought that loading from the mag could scrape off enough lube from one side of the bullet to make a difference but I’ve never taken the time to run the test. I need to mount a different scope before I do it though. The one I have has a 10 yard to infinity parallax (non adjustable) and it’s hard to shoot good groups with it. I’ll put that scope on something that won’t matter so much, like my CVA Scout in 44 magnum, lol!
@@jimbo3615 I really don’t think a small amount of lube scraped off one side would make any difference, only because once the barrel is seasoned it takes quite a few shots from a different ammo to un-season and then reseason the barrel to the new ammo. If that makes any sense? But who knows you could be on to something, only way to find out is try it. Good luck
@@RimfireSS Yeah, it makes sense about the barrel seasoning but…. It’s also taking some lube off the nose that doesn’t contact the rifling. Next time I’m out with the Kimber, I’m going to do this test. Just 5 groups of each should be enough to see a difference if there is any. I need to do some shooting anyways…. 🙂
@RimfireSS just curious if you ordered that CZ or your dealer had one? I ordered one 6 months ago or so and I'm still waiting for it to show up.
I purchased mine through Grab a Gun. They have several in stock and several different models. Check them out. Grabagun.com
Elk County guns has the cz 457 mtr for 825$ in stock. Best gun on the market for the money. I glass bedded mine and changed the trigger spring. I am a top contender in the factory class 50yds.
@@seanbrown7954 $730 on grabagun.com for the MTR.
@@RimfireSS not in stock
@@seanbrown7954 get the notifications they get them all the time.
Did you post the results from your "weight" comparisson? I dont see that video in you video list
No, I just gave up on it actually. My results were not worth the time involved. Going to try something else now. I bought a .22lr crimper. You know how when you load rounds and the bullets feel loose? We’ll I’m gonna try crimping my ammo. Maybe a loose crimp is causing fliers, lowering pressure causing low impact rounds. Idk, when I reload 450 Bushmaster if the crimp isn’t just right it makes a huge difference. So I’m just trying to think outside the box for better shooting ammunition.
The problem is: weight sorting assumes that bullet weights are the same - but it doesn't. 0.3gr difference in powder is about 10% of all powder in the round, but 0.3 grain is less than 1% of the weight of a bullet. I don't think that bullets cast that precisely. When you don't know what is the reason for the difference in weight - that kind of sorting doesn't make any sense... any kind of sorting doesn't make any sense in that situation.
I absolutely agree
I found out that it doesn't matter. What matters is finding the right ammo for your rifle. My CZ happens to enjoy SK and Wolf. Too bad they stopped making Federal Gold Medal Match.
Absolutely, I don’t care what you do, with .22lr you will never eliminate the fliers. So ammos have more then others and it varies from rifle to rifle.
What chronograph do you use?
www.opticsplanet.com/competition-electronics-prochrono-dlx-with-bluetooth.html
Not sure I’d recommend it though.
@@RimfireSS Thanks.
Do you use the rifle for anything other than punching paper?
I have several rifles I use for different things. I have a 10/22 set up for a small game. I have an AR22 I use to train with on the cheap. Love shooting steel with my Henry, but most of the 22s are paper punchers. I'm going to be doing a 6arc build here soon, I'm working with a manufacturer, so I'm waiting for parts to get here. Also, I am working on a place where I can stretch its legs out. Most ranges in MI are 300 yards max, so it will have to be private property.
Is that a chronograph on your phone?
@@thomashale8063 no, it’s a Bluetooth chrono that reads with your phone. Not something I’d recommend though. POS
I discovered rim thickness changes with a not very flat rim a slight bulge could be seen.
Thats interesting, i have a savage a22r varmit and i use cci mini mags and cci stingers and have had no problems at all with accuracy and consistency. Maybe its a bad batch of ammo you got? I tried the cci standard velocity sub sonic and they were ok to 50 yards but to 100 they were all over the place. I only use the mini mags and stingers now,i dont bother with the sub sonics.
No Issues when it starts to shift into subsonic speeds? I find this very hard to believe.
@@Whitchhunter666 nope,i know i cant understand it myself .Its the exact same thing with my wifes ruger precision. 22 LR,she used sub sonics to 50 yards and no problem but at 100 yards the groupings were terrible.
@@Whitchhunter666 factory ammo is shit,unless you buy the top of the range stuff like ELEY ect. I weighed a few rounds to see if there was a big difference with consistency and its way out. Out of a dozen rounds of cci mini mags there was approximately 6 that had the exact same weight,so 50% would be different grain weights with the powder and projectiles. With that amount of inconsistency your not going to get hole in hole at any distance.
@@MEDCANWhitewidow that's because the bullet is too fast breaking the sound barrier, it becomes unstable after 35-40 yrds. I only use subs for this reason. I get one hole groups at 50 with Aquila LRN
@Shannon Fritsch no I don't agree,as I said the factory ammo is shithouse unless you are using eley or top shelf quality factory target ammo. I do understand that projectiles are unstable at that 1000fps but accuracy is also about consistency with bullet powder weights and projectile weights-cci factory ammo is far from consistent, in fact its about 50% consistent so you will not get consistent groupings at any distance when bullet charge grains are not the same. I reload all my own ammo except .22 cal but if I was doing competive shooting I would be either doing my own .22 loads or buying ELEY or other top shelf quality. 22 ammo.
Has anyone weighed spent Brass, I wonder if that contributes to the difference in weight round to round.
Which there’s no way to fix it but if the casings vary in weight that means the powder and lead are very consistent.
I have been watching you for a few months now. One thing I have noticed when I am out at the range is that one ammo might shoot lights out at 50 while really sucking at 100 and visa versa. You shoot a lot of CZ rifles. In the cheap ammo my CZ's like Federal Auto Match and even CCI Standard for 50. CCI sucks for 100 which you found out. The fliers you get at 100 will barely show up at 50. I weigh and use .001 gram scale. If I am checking weight on CCI, I can put a bullet on a bullet at 50 but be all over the place at 100. Now CCI will outshoot Federal Auto Match at 50 but the groups are acceptable. Now at 100, Federal will outshoot the CCI, by a lot!! I recently bought some Aguila competition match and weighed 500 rounds of the 1000 I bought. Many people have reviewed that ammo and said its far from being competition ammo. Out of 500 I got 90 that weighed 3.200, exactly. They ran 1010 ave fps with an sd of 6 to 8 per 10 rounds consistently. Again, they shot lights out at 50 but sucked at 100. I brought out some Aguila HV 1255 ammo and it shot great at 100 at moa or just a smidge over or under but couldnt hit the broad side of a barn at 50. All I am saying is the main thing I see, by weighing, I get less fliers and my groups are tighter with any brand of ammo. I have watched many of your videos and you have a killer group going and then comes the flier. You are a good shot and use good ammo and still get fliers. If you want a good test of weighing, pick your favorite 100yd ammo and favorite 50yd ammo, that your gun likes, and weigh out 500 rounds of each. Take the highest number of rounds with the exact same numbers of each and use those for your control group and compare it against groups you shot with the same type ammo in the past. If they arent consistently smaller averages then you are right. My groups have been 2 to 3 tenths smaller with very few, if any, fliers.
I’ve done weighing and sorting every which way you can. And what I’ve found is a very small difference in groups and fliers, but there was a difference. To me it’s not worth the time involved. Especially when you can’t control the variance in brass weight, projectile weight or propellant charge in the rim. While I was able to get a few less fliers .22 ammunition manufacturing is not conducive to absolute precision. I now have decided to accept it for what it is, I spend my time and money on better more consistent ammunition and accept the occasional flier as a unfortunate characteristic of the platform.
@@RimfireSS I guess, because I am new to sorting, I havent gotten there yet. I have had your same conclusion with reasoning on other things like, I'm a mechanic. I can do roofing and my house needed a roof. I can make more money doing mechanic work and paying someone to do the roof and not have to work as hard with a fan blowing on me instead of on a hot roof with the sun beating on me. I might get that way with sorting too. Its really a shame that people spend thousands of dollars on their guns, only to be at the mercy of the bullet maker as to how well they shoot. You have a great channel and I love watching and learning from you.
@@mlone7 it really is a shame. But all and all there still pretty good. Especially once you find that ammo that absolutely hammers. Problem is once you do, the next time you buy it, it’s a different lot and might not shoot as well. Pretty frustrating really but that’s all part of it.
The way I see it, sorting only by weight has way too many variables. The case, the charge, and the projectile could all affect the weight. So I want to try and sort by rim first, eliminating that variable, then sorting by weight. Because I've heard that the case alone can vary in weight quite significantly. I know sorting twice would be a ton of work, but in the country of Belize where I'm from I can't even buy match grade ammo at all. So I'll do whatever I can with sorting. Anyone tried this before?
Man that sucks! At least the weather is good. Some people swear by rim and weight sorting. I’ve never had any luck, we’ll anything that made it worth doing anyway. What ammunitions do you have available there? Can you get Eley Contact? That’s a great shooting non match ammunition.
@@RimfireSS At this point I shoot mostly CCI 40gr mini mags. And out of 20 shots my SD is 22, so yea that's disgusting. At this point there are only 3 brands available, Augila for bulk ammo, S&B hollow points, and various CCI loads. Nothing near match grade or even the Eley brand. The weather is great of course!
@@merrillkornelsen4640 can you get CCI standard velocity or CCI subsonic HPs?
@@merrillkornelsen4640 also what rig are you running (rifle)?
@@RimfireSS At this point no, but we have our first rimfire competition coming up soon. So I plan to speak our local supplier to see if more variety could become available for the future.
I shoot 5 dollar a box (sorted) Aguila 40gr lrn at my kyl rack at 50 yards (100 yards too but not very often a clean run). The smallest target is 1/4", are you saying sorting isn't viable? The issue is finding match quality ammo I can afford, as I end up mail ordering all my match ammo, I prefer sorting a 5 dollar box vs buying a 20 dollar box, if it is available. I own 2 cz's, and a vudoo
Nope not saying that at all, Must be something I’m missing because people say they have good results doing it, it just didn’t work for me, maybe it was the ammo I was using idk. Just didn’t seem worth the effort.
I just try to find a ammo that shoots the best for a reasonable cost without having to sort it.
@@RimfireSS I have only found match ammo one time at a store 40 miles away, the rest I mail order, if it can be found. I am mostly looking for Sk and Lapua, but I may try Eley as it seems more available. I agree, with match ammo you may not need to sort, but 5 dollar ammo it sure helps, maybe if its just a psychological thing
@@wowguy3562 trust me, I’m not hung up on any brand or price. If it shoots good in my rifle I’ll buy it. A flier here and there is part of the game with .22 unfortunately. From what I’ve seen a super good quality barrel and action make things easier but your still gonna get fliers. Just part of it I guess. This .22lr rabbit holes pretty deep. Lol
@@RimfireSS Oh I have jumped feet first into that 22lr rabbit hole, I never thought the ammo would be the thing that was the hardest part, sinking a large chunk of change into my rifle, it dawns on you you will be putting roughly 1600$ into a case of 5000 rounds for good ammo, when you can find it
I'm not good enough to worry about sorting by weight... but if I did, my luck any weight difference would just end up being the amount of lube on the bullets rather than difference in charge.
I hear ya. I won’t be weighing any more ammunition. I just had to see what all the fuss is about.
Seems like you either like tinkering, or have a lotta spare time in your hands. Why not just buy match ammunition?
Think you missed the whole point of the video....... Like I said at the end, I will not be sorting ammo of any sort, if I want better I'll buy better.
@@RimfireSS
It doesn’t matter. Guys will just tell you to sort the expensive stuff too. I’ve been getting into the .22lr world the last few months and I’ve come to the conclusion that the most deciding factor in accuracy is how cool you think your rifle looks lol. I have an 18” Ruger American Rimfire and it loves CCI SV. I haven’t tried any other ammo though because .3” 5-shot groups at 50 yards (if I do my part) is hard to beat at any price per round. I understand lot consistency is a real thing but it’s working out well so far.
Nice shooting man!
@@ryanwilson5936 thanks and try the Norma Match.
I suggest, finish the group then speak. You fired 4 shots then you speak meanwhile barrel is cooling off and your mindset is not same THEN group opens up. 😀
Hey, it’s hard when you have a thought, sometimes if I don’t let it out I’ll forget what I wanted to say. Lol, I’ve tried to not speak during groups but it’s proven a hard habit to break. But thanks for the heads up. 😬
Sounds like a bullet/bc consistency Issue between rounds. Not really a way to sort that.
Yup, sorting is a waste of time, and you also proved that chronograph results don`t mean sh!t either. Groups matter, numbers do not.
Yup, kinda funny when the crono numbers were so far apart yet the impacts were right next to each other. Been alittle flustered with Ammo lately, SK has been pretty spotty, had same lot box to box shoot differently. Lol, just when u think you found the “right” ammo then the next time I buy it it’s crap. .22LR can be a very frustrating endeavor.
How are you measuring the rim thickness?
With a gauge
I sort, best I have found is a Raven Eye Custom using a Digital 1/2" throw indicator (.0005) accuracy with a flat tip on the gauge, bought from amazon for roughly 55 dollars and change, now I think you may need to buy the raven eye directly from them, I believe I have sorted 5k rounds, maybe more, it takes approx. 8 seconds a round to sort, so slightly more than 5 minutes per box of 50. I like the digital readout its easy on my old eyes
Drop the 22 shell into a 223 case.then mic.
@@Whitchhunter666 I used the 223 case first, I believe that is the easiest way to start sorting, as most have access to a empty 223 and a digital caliper, but the raven eye custom is so fast and is actually easier than the 223 shell and I believe more accurate, I have no affiliation to raven eye custom, I am an end user and just enjoy the 22lr experience, almost like hand loading except starting with pre made ammo and trying to get the most performance from each round
....when sorting by rim, I go from thin to thick, - .035's, .036's, .037's etc.,etc., ..... how ever you measure - sort/group the same numbers together by the thousandth's in order & shoot accordingly, I believe the results may show ......"alittle" better, but in conclusion, I have found sorting to be a waste of time,....it's very much a waste of time like a tuner except for the difference in concept. Ammo quality/Rifle quality & pairing is what it takes for best precision consistency. Seems nowdays - high cost of ammo only increases precision marginally, yet cheap ammo groups like a shotgun,....lol....22LR will be 22LR.....alittle bit of luck goes a long ways....lol
I hear you, I’ve have found no matter how much you spend on a rifle your ammunition is going to determine just how accurate it is. Now some rifles with these 1.25 barrels have less harmonics so they shoot more ammo more better but hell I have a $250 savage mark ii that I did some work on that shoots just as good as some of them expensive rifles. But I had to do some work to get them there. Lead lapping was the main thing. Shoots lights out now. Video soon to come.
@@RimfireSS I have a Howa 1100 that I did alittle work to aswell, I will say - NOT for sale.
If you like CCI Standard give CCI Green Tag a go.....
Why CCI at all. Too expensive for plinking and too ineffective for 'target' shooting. It's simply junk ammo. So many other affordable options worthy of consideration long before picking up a box of CCI as last resort.
@@marw1920 I used CCI because it is so inconsistent, and if sorting was so effective it should have weeded out the bad rounds giving better results. But it really didn’t.
@@RimfireSS Love what you do on your channel - good details and analytics. Big fan.
Of note, MarkandSam Afterwork are fans of the CCI Velocitor ammo for ELR shooting in 22LR cal. They have some good CZ 457 video on consistency at 300 yards with 24 inch target. 1.313 MOA (about 6 inches) with 10 shot group at 300 yards. Some damn good shooting with 22LR trainer.
@@marw1920 I just ordered some Velocitors a few days ago. I’ll be testing it out at at least 200 yards once I get it.
Shoot crap ammo in crap guns good ammo like Lapua etc in accurate guns. Cci is crap ammo for competition but good ammo for the back yard.
Exactly! Sometimes you need to shoot good ammo in the backyard too. Lol, that’s where I do most my shooting.
I shoot 50 yard bench rest. My 1st season. Most people lot hunt Lapua center x. I have shot decent with sk plus and rifle match. I have won several tournaments this year.
@@seanbrown7954 SK is probably the most consistent match ammunition IMHO. I’ve had great results with rifle match and long range. Although Eley seems to do better beyond 100 yards.
I've shot a .380 at 100 with sk long range match. Blue collar reloading in Salisbury N.C just got a shipment of sk ammo in today. Lookm up online and get some before they sell out. That sk plus for 7.95 a box shoots amazing in a cz. I've won tournaments with that cheap ammo.
@@seanbrown7954 I’m on it!
too far with crap ammo to read a difference in your testing .